Lake Trout being culled in Yellowstone Lake

[Jayball]

Very interesting article in NY Time I found about the mass killing Lake Trout to save Cutthroat... which according to the article, does more to sustain the local ecosystem.

http://nyti.ms/oqR0c3

[honda450]

Think someone posted bout doing the same thing here in Alberta to save the native cutties from brook trout or something along that line in Jasper or Banff.

[winged1]

hadn't heard about a cull, but the park regs state that an angler MUST retain caught lake trout, or alternatively, puncture thier air bladder and drop them into deep water.

[bulkspin]

Think someone posted bout doing the same thing here in Alberta to save the native cutties from brook trout or something along that line in Jasper or Banff.

In the past years, whatever that years incarnation of Fish and Wildlife Alberta was called, have put their big brains together and decided to take a number of approaches relating to streams in the foothills. One drive was aimed at eradication of introduced species, Brown Trout and Brookies, so that native species, Bull Trout and Cutthroats (and in the Hinton Jasper area only - Rainbow Trout), would have a better survival rate; thank heavens that they did not go so far as, for example, poisoning a stream to get rid of the Browns and Brookies (and all other fish besides), then repopulating the streams with native Bull and Cutthroat Trout. That would have been bad, but an almost typical result of the big brain brain storming sessions in that department about a decade ago. Removal of limits (or literal 'open seasons') for the non-native species was next considered, but sanity carried the day and instead they just continued to allow a couple fish limit on the non-native species and a "0" fish limit on the native species.

It seemed to me that it did not take long for Bull trout to be attacking your lure over and over again - once again; and the size and numbers increased. They are fun fish because they are basically so stupid or aggressive that they will bite the same lure twice, even after being released they will attack the same thing again - no wonder their populations were going down fast (plus they have to be over 5 years old to breed, if I am not mistaken). Cutthroat? Well who knows and who cares (ooops). They are an intermediate fight but still pretty easy to catch when around. Neither of these two native species of trout taste like much at all - not worth the hassle of keeping them even if you could do so legally.

So Luckily they did not eliminate the Brookies and the Browns. Not only are they physically the most beautiful fish, they are both good scrappers with Browns having the added feature of being the most cunning and intelligent of all the Trout species.

I have gone from 100 to 0 MPH on my trout fishing about 5 years ago so I do not really know the outcome of that part of this story.

Moving on, if a decision was ever made to "get rid" of Lake Trout to help "save" Cutthroats in Alberta I would order brain scans and MRIs for the body who made such a decision. Both Lake and Cuthroat Trout ARE native to Alberta for one thing, for another, for the most part they have completely different habitats aka "Lake trout" preferring "Lakes" almost exclusively, while Cutthroats mostly hang out in streams (but show up in lakes here and there).

The best solution of course is to keep the introduced species, not only have they taken some of the angling stresses off of the native species, but have also successfully integrated into our stream environments for nearly a century now (I am guessing a bit on the exact time period in which introduction first took place).

That is outside our National Parks, of course; inside the park gates, the Feds rule and that is another ball game altogether. They have done some wacky things in the past (large scale interbreeding, Golden Trout Introduction, and I believe they were the first be bring the Brown and Brookies into Alberta), but got serious about nuking the Browns and Brookies to "restore" the natural parks' streams. I am not sure how successful they were but I would definitely like to hear from someone who could bring me up-to-date on this.

In any case, improving the trout fishery in Alberta should not be about eliminating specific trout species from our waters, but should be centered around improving the trout habitat(s) throughout Alberta, creating additional habitats, and improving the stocking programs and number of stocked "put and take" ponds and lakes. Some specific examples of the above would be rehabilitation of stream beds (gravel) and stream banks (Willow trees), separate "watering holes" for free-range cattle, protection of streams from damage by cattle crossing (free range), and my own favourite "pet project" --->augmenting "put and take fisheries" by establishing a naturally reproducing fraction using simple and proven technologies that establish cool clean oxygenated water flows down temporary artificial stream beds during spawn time and until hatched "fry" return to main lake.

Other projects should be seriously examined, such as targeting some of the Alkaline or Salt saturated lakes that support no sport fishing populations at all with salt tolerant variants of Rainbow Trout - possible lakes to consider would be those like Red Deer Lake, Buffalo Lake, and Nameo Beach (I believe).

Establish regular test netting, angler surveys, and water sampling during winter and summer on vulnerable lakes so that winter and summer kill situations can be proactively dealt with - prevented. For example (Warning, this is a tale about Walleye, not Trout), consider ST. Vincent Lake - strict Walleye retention rules were kept in place even after three consecutive years of Walleye overpopulation; anglers were consistently catching fish after fish in the 3 - 5 lb range, yet the lake was only opened for Walleye fishing for a short period, with a single fish per angler limit, with no signs of populations decreasing. On the 3rd winter, dissolved oxygen levels were observed to drop too quickly and this abundant fishery was destroyed again by complete winterkill as the fish suffocated; too little air for too many fish. If the proper procedures were in place, these fish would not have been allowed to increase to such huge unsustainable numbers - controlled through regulations - but if they did and oxygen samples through the ice showed a trend indicating that the dissolved oxygen would be depleted prior to "ice-off", a portion of the lake would have been cordoned off and a temporary aeration system installed to raise the O2 levels up to a safe amount.

Commercial fishing licenses should be severely restricted and more closely monitored. Sportfishing using guide services should be encouraged for non-Canadian anglers; especially in trophy waters like Cold Lake (Lake Trout).

Negotiations with Saskatchewan and British Columbia should take place so that a 3 province fishing/angling license would become available - fish management cooperation between the three provinces should be considered.

Did I over due my response!?! :) Sorry - I had to get that off my chest!

Barney

[pelada trochu]

In the past years, whatever that years incarnation of Fish and Wildlife Alberta was called, have put their big brains together and decided to take a number of approaches relating to streams in the foothills. One drive was aimed at eradication of introduced species, Brown Trout and Brookies, so that native species, Bull Trout and Cutthroats (and in the Hinton Jasper area only - Rainbow Trout), would have a better survival rate; thank heavens that they did not go so far as, for example, poisoning a stream to get rid of the Browns and Brookies (and all other fish besides), then repopulating the streams with native Bull and Cutthroat Trout. That would have been bad, but an almost typical result of the big brain brain storming sessions in that department about a decade ago. Removal of limits (or literal 'open seasons') for the non-native species was next considered, but sanity carried the day and instead they just continued to allow a couple fish limit on the non-native species and a "0" fish limit on the native species.

It seemed to me that it did not take long for Bull trout to be attacking your lure over and over again - once again; and the size and numbers increased. They are fun fish because they are basically so stupid or aggressive that they will bite the same lure twice, even after being released they will attack the same thing again - no wonder their populations were going down fast (plus they have to be over 5 years old to breed, if I am not mistaken). Cutthroat? Well who knows and who cares (ooops). They are an intermediate fight but still pretty easy to catch when around. Neither of these two native species of trout taste like much at all - not worth the hassle of keeping them even if you could do so legally.

So Luckily they did not eliminate the Brookies and the Browns. Not only are they physically the most beautiful fish, they are both good scrappers with Browns having the added feature of being the most cunning and intelligent of all the Trout species.

I have gone from 100 to 0 MPH on my trout fishing about 5 years ago so I do not really know the outcome of that part of this story.

Moving on, if a decision was ever made to "get rid" of Lake Trout to help "save" Cutthroats in Alberta I would order brain scans and MRIs for the body who made such a decision. Both Lake and Cuthroat Trout ARE native to Alberta for one thing, for another, for the most part they have completely different habitats aka "Lake trout" preferring "Lakes" almost exclusively, while Cutthroats mostly hang out in streams (but show up in lakes here and there).

The best solution of course is to keep the introduced species, not only have they taken some of the angling stresses off of the native species, but have also successfully integrated into our stream environments for nearly a century now (I am guessing a bit on the exact time period in which introduction first took place).

That is outside our National Parks, of course; inside the park gates, the Feds rule and that is another ball game altogether. They have done some wacky things in the past (large scale interbreeding, Golden Trout Introduction, and I believe they were the first be bring the Brown and Brookies into Alberta), but got serious about nuking the Browns and Brookies to "restore" the natural parks' streams. I am not sure how successful they were but I would definitely like to hear from someone who could bring me up-to-date on this.

In any case, improving the trout fishery in Alberta should not be about eliminating specific trout species from our waters, but should be centered around improving the trout habitat(s) throughout Alberta, creating additional habitats, and improving the stocking programs and number of stocked "put and take" ponds and lakes. Some specific examples of the above would be rehabilitation of stream beds (gravel) and stream banks (Willow trees), separate "watering holes" for free-range cattle, protection of streams from damage by cattle crossing (free range), and my own favourite "pet project" --->augmenting "put and take fisheries" by establishing a naturally reproducing fraction using simple and proven technologies that establish cool clean oxygenated water flows down temporary artificial stream beds during spawn time and until hatched "fry" return to main lake.

Other projects should be seriously examined, such as targeting some of the Alkaline or Salt saturated lakes that support no sport fishing populations at all with salt tolerant variants of Rainbow Trout - possible lakes to consider would be those like Red Deer Lake, Buffalo Lake, and Nameo Beach (I believe).

Establish regular test netting, angler surveys, and water sampling during winter and summer on vulnerable lakes so that winter and summer kill situations can be proactively dealt with - prevented. For example (Warning, this is a tale about Walleye, not Trout), consider ST. Vincent Lake - strict Walleye retention rules were kept in place even after three consecutive years of Walleye overpopulation; anglers were consistently catching fish after fish in the 3 - 5 lb range, yet the lake was only opened for Walleye fishing for a short period, with a single fish per angler limit, with no signs of populations decreasing. On the 3rd winter, dissolved oxygen levels were observed to drop too quickly and this abundant fishery was destroyed again by complete winterkill as the fish suffocated; too little air for too many fish. If the proper procedures were in place, these fish would not have been allowed to increase to such huge unsustainable numbers - controlled through regulations - but if they did and oxygen samples through the ice showed a trend indicating that the dissolved oxygen would be depleted prior to "ice-off", a portion of the lake would have been cordoned off and a temporary aeration system installed to raise the O2 levels up to a safe amount.

Commercial fishing licenses should be severely restricted and more closely monitored. Sportfishing using guide services should be encouraged for non-Canadian anglers; especially in trophy waters like Cold Lake (Lake Trout).

Negotiations with Saskatchewan and British Columbia should take place so that a 3 province fishing/angling license would become available - fish management cooperation between the three provinces should be considered.

Did I over due my response!?! :) Sorry - I had to get that off my chest!

Barney

great post, thank you so much.

its not easy to artificially control a lake species. what we should focus on is managing our interaction with nature.

people shouldnt try to manage a population. it will manage itself. its nature after all.

cheers,

[slivers86]

great post, thank you so much.

its not easy to artificially control a lake species. what we should focus on is managing our interaction with nature.

people shouldnt try to manage a population. it will manage itself. its nature after all.

cheers,

x2

great post.

[Cad-Tech]

X2 Good information.

[smitty9]

In the past years, whatever that years incarnation of Fish and Wildlife Alberta was called, have put their big brains together and decided to take a number of approaches relating to streams in the foothills. One drive was aimed at eradication of introduced species, Brown Trout and Brookies, so that native species, Bull Trout and Cutthroats (and in the Hinton Jasper area only - Rainbow Trout), would have a better survival rate; thank heavens that they did not go so far as, for example, poisoning a stream to get rid of the Browns and Brookies (and all other fish besides), then repopulating the streams with native Bull and Cutthroat Trout. That would have been bad, but an almost typical result of the big brain brain storming sessions in that department about a decade ago. Removal of limits (or literal 'open seasons') for the non-native species was next considered, but sanity carried the day and instead they just continued to allow a couple fish limit on the non-native species and a "0" fish limit on the native species.

It seemed to me that it did not take long for Bull trout to be attacking your lure over and over again - once again; and the size and numbers increased. They are fun fish because they are basically so stupid or aggressive that they will bite the same lure twice, even after being released they will attack the same thing again - no wonder their populations were going down fast (plus they have to be over 5 years old to breed, if I am not mistaken). Cutthroat? Well who knows and who cares (ooops). They are an intermediate fight but still pretty easy to catch when around. Neither of these two native species of trout taste like much at all - not worth the hassle of keeping them even if you could do so legally.

So Luckily they did not eliminate the Brookies and the Browns. Not only are they physically the most beautiful fish, they are both good scrappers with Browns having the added feature of being the most cunning and intelligent of all the Trout species.

I have gone from 100 to 0 MPH on my trout fishing about 5 years ago so I do not really know the outcome of that part of this story.

Moving on, if a decision was ever made to "get rid" of Lake Trout to help "save" Cutthroats in Alberta I would order brain scans and MRIs for the body who made such a decision. Both Lake and Cuthroat Trout ARE native to Alberta for one thing, for another, for the most part they have completely different habitats aka "Lake trout" preferring "Lakes" almost exclusively, while Cutthroats mostly hang out in streams (but show up in lakes here and there).

The best solution of course is to keep the introduced species, not only have they taken some of the angling stresses off of the native species, but have also successfully integrated into our stream environments for nearly a century now (I am guessing a bit on the exact time period in which introduction first took place).

That is outside our National Parks, of course; inside the park gates, the Feds rule and that is another ball game altogether. They have done some wacky things in the past (large scale interbreeding, Golden Trout Introduction, and I believe they were the first be bring the Brown and Brookies into Alberta), but got serious about nuking the Browns and Brookies to "restore" the natural parks' streams. I am not sure how successful they were but I would definitely like to hear from someone who could bring me up-to-date on this.

In any case, improving the trout fishery in Alberta should not be about eliminating specific trout species from our waters, but should be centered around improving the trout habitat(s) throughout Alberta, creating additional habitats, and improving the stocking programs and number of stocked "put and take" ponds and lakes. Some specific examples of the above would be rehabilitation of stream beds (gravel) and stream banks (Willow trees), separate "watering holes" for free-range cattle, protection of streams from damage by cattle crossing (free range), and my own favourite "pet project" --->augmenting "put and take fisheries" by establishing a naturally reproducing fraction using simple and proven technologies that establish cool clean oxygenated water flows down temporary artificial stream beds during spawn time and until hatched "fry" return to main lake.

Other projects should be seriously examined, such as targeting some of the Alkaline or Salt saturated lakes that support no sport fishing populations at all with salt tolerant variants of Rainbow Trout - possible lakes to consider would be those like Red Deer Lake, Buffalo Lake, and Nameo Beach (I believe).

Establish regular test netting, angler surveys, and water sampling during winter and summer on vulnerable lakes so that winter and summer kill situations can be proactively dealt with - prevented. For example (Warning, this is a tale about Walleye, not Trout), consider ST. Vincent Lake - strict Walleye retention rules were kept in place even after three consecutive years of Walleye overpopulation; anglers were consistently catching fish after fish in the 3 - 5 lb range, yet the lake was only opened for Walleye fishing for a short period, with a single fish per angler limit, with no signs of populations decreasing. On the 3rd winter, dissolved oxygen levels were observed to drop too quickly and this abundant fishery was destroyed again by complete winterkill as the fish suffocated; too little air for too many fish. If the proper procedures were in place, these fish would not have been allowed to increase to such huge unsustainable numbers - controlled through regulations - but if they did and oxygen samples through the ice showed a trend indicating that the dissolved oxygen would be depleted prior to "ice-off", a portion of the lake would have been cordoned off and a temporary aeration system installed to raise the O2 levels up to a safe amount.

Commercial fishing licenses should be severely restricted and more closely monitored. Sportfishing using guide services should be encouraged for non-Canadian anglers; especially in trophy waters like Cold Lake (Lake Trout).

Negotiations with Saskatchewan and British Columbia should take place so that a 3 province fishing/angling license would become available - fish management cooperation between the three provinces should be considered.

Did I over due my response!?! :) Sorry - I had to get that off my chest!

Barney

Barney:

Lets get a few things straight. I am not a fisheries biologist, just someone who has been fishing the province from the time I was a kid, mid-80's. I have, on several occassions, talked to or emailed several biologists like George Sterling and Jim Stelfox. And I hope either one, or any other SRD biologist can chime in here.

In the meantime, let me chime in on what I think are some gross mis-information your post contains:

(1) I am not aware at any time did regional bios ever think of trying to eradicate brown trout from the province.

(2) I am not aware at anytime was poisoning streams ever considered. I haven't researched it much, but I believe I read somewhere that using a chemical like rotenone is totally ineffecitve due to flowing water (current).

(3) There is no plan in place to eradicate brook trout from the province; there is, however, as sensible plan to control their numbers in a few watersheds with, effectively, a license to kill. This would help re-balance the eco-system.

(4) Your characterization of brown trout as "cunning and intelligent" is a misconception and stereotype.

(5) I also take issue that suddenly the province is overwhelmed with bull trout numbers. Suddenly the bull trout are the problem? I don't think so. Have you got some creel or angling or electrofishing data to support your claim?

(6) Lake trout are akin to sharks of the char family. Yellowstone is right to try and remove them. Their impact on bull trout is severe.

Everyone gets a little hysterical when we try to fix mistakes. This is not about the good old days; this is not about naivete. This is simply fish management, and I, for the most part agree with it.

Feel free to disagree of course,as is your right, naturally. But lets stick to the facts, ok? If you can provide some back-up to your claims then be my guest.

Good Fishing,
Smitty

[smitty9]

great post, thank you so much.

its not easy to artificially control a lake species. what we should focus on is managing our interaction with nature.

people shouldnt try to manage a population. it will manage itself. its nature after all.

cheers,

So we should just let carp take over with the zebra mussels? Australia should just let rabbits and cats do as they please. New Zealand shoudln't do anything at all to control the invasive species that have wiped out many flightless species?

Your sentence should have read "people shouldn't introduce exotic species from different continents with no known predators. Mother nature does a wonderful job managing it herself...until man comes along and screws it up..."

Seriously, how much native fauna does the world have to lose before our ignorance is cured?

Of course we need to "manage" it; its us that messed it up in the first place!

Smitty

[McLeod]

Very interesting article in NY Time I found about the mass killing Lake Trout to save Cutthroat... which according to the article, does more to sustain the local ecosystem.

http://nyti.ms/oqR0c3

This has been going for several years now.
They should be doing the same thing at Minnewanka !!!!

[McLeod]

[QUOTE=bulkspin;1501656] Cutthroat? Well who knows and who cares (ooops). They are an intermediate fight but still pretty easy to catch when around. Neither of these two native species of trout taste like much at all - not worth the hassle of keeping them even if you could do so legally.


Moving on, if a decision was ever made to "get rid" of Lake Trout to help "save" Cutthroats in Alberta I would order brain scans and MRIs for the body who made such a decision. Both Lake and Cuthroat Trout ARE native to Alberta for one thing, for another, for the most part they have completely different habitats aka "Lake trout" preferring "Lakes" almost exclusively, while Cutthroats mostly hang out in streams (but show up in lakes here and there).


A SEVERE lack of an factual information in your ramble.
While I am all for everyone having an opinion your post grossly misleading
and lacks little in the way of valid arguments or conclusions :fighting0030:

[jrs]

This has been going for several years now.
They should be doing the same thing at Minnewanka !!!!

x2
I think controling invasives may be a huge tool in the next generation of trout management in Alberta. You'de have to ignore an awful lot of research to not at least support trying it in some systems.

[TROLLER]

Flathead lake in Montana has upped the daily limit on Lakers to 100 per day to try and get a handle on them.

Same reason, they are taking over from the native cutthroat.

[BigA]

Negotiations with Saskatchewan and British Columbia should take place so that a 3 province fishing/angling license would become available - fish management cooperation between the three provinces should be considered.



This is a fairly good idea. Best one that was in that whole post.