Recovered a Bullet

[Roebag]

Our meat butcher recovered the bullet from .277's elk. It's post flight and contact weight is 137.5 grains. What do you guys think of the bullet performance. It was a 57 yard, facing him shot.

Is this typical for this bullet?

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s89/roebag/Hunting%202011/IMG_0255.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s89/roebag/Hunting%202011/IMG_0254.jpg

[Lefty-Canuck]

Personally for an under 100 yrds shot that bullet didn't expand as much as I would like....imagine a 300yrd shot. Weight retention is pretty good but again....very little expansion @ that range IMHO.

LC

[Twisted Canuck]

I agree with lefty, I would have expected greater expansion....it looks more like it 'accordioned', diminishing expansion. Still, I guess it got the job done.

[steve]

That don't impress me much.

Any elk pics?

[Lefty-Canuck]

I am not really familiar with that particular bullet but I would like at least double the caliber expansion on a bullet from that close......my fear in using it at extended ranges is little or no expansion and "pencilling".....almost acting like an FMJ......not good IMHO.

LC

[Richard B.]

I think that the elk was pretty impressed with the bullets performance.

[Pathfinder76]

That bullet IMHO performed very well. It appears to me to have expanded as far as it could and it's weight loss appears to be lost petal tips. Expansion was not an issue and that is why we call premiums "controlled" expansion bullets.

My question is where did that bullet end up.

[Twisted Canuck]

Now here is the kind of expansion that makes a hunter's heart warm and fuzzy.....this is a .416 Rigby, 410 gr soft nose Federal Premium, after being shot through 18" of old stump from about 25 yrds away, and recovered from the sand behind it....it made a considerable exit hole!:scared0018:

http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo213/twistedcanuck/IMG_0118.jpg

For those who haven't seen a Rigby round up close, here is a little comparison, from left to right: .22-250, 7mm-08, .300 WM, and the .416 Rigby.

http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo213/twistedcanuck/IMG_0113.jpg

It hurts a bit to shoot, but it will make you grin. Too bad I sold it before I had a chance to use it on a moose or elk, but my BIL apparently needed it more than I did....:)

[steve]

You like the looks of that Chuck?

I've never shot XP3's.

But the expanded largest diameter of that bullet would be what, .320?

At 57 yards, at 300yds wouldnt it be considerably less?

[Couleestalker]

Bull Elk, 24 yards, high shoulder shot. Using a 280 rem. 140gr Core Lokt PSP
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/nate_font/Elk_Bullet.jpg

[Lefty-Canuck]

Bull Elk, 24 yards, high shoulder shot. Using a 280 rem. 140gr Core Lokt PSP
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/nate_font/Elk_Bullet.jpg

Maybe I am old school....but I like the looks of that better....especially since it was a close up shot.

A kill is a kill....no denying that. My only concern is if you stretch out the shot....whats that bullet going to do?

LC

[sheephunter]

Too many variables to judge from one bullet. Did it hit bone? Did it tumble because of angle or deflection? Etc, etc. Not picture perfect by any means but it sounds like it did the job.

[209x50]

That XP3 looks very good and it performed exactly as designed. The shank is designed to swell to support the expanded and pealed back petals and help reduce petal breakage. The XP3 is designed for 2x caliber expansion and that looks like it was accomplished.

[steve]

That XP3 looks very good and it performed exactly as designed. The shank is designed to swell to support the expanded and pealed back petals and help reduce petal breakage. The XP3 is designed for 2x caliber expansion and that looks like it was accomplished.

That looks like a diameter of .554, or around there?

[Pathfinder76]

You like the looks of that Chuck?

I've never shot XP3's.

But the expanded largest diameter of that bullet would be what, .320?

At 57 yards, at 300yds wouldnt it be considerably less?

Absolutely I do. That picture is not an indication of what the expanded diameter really was either. I would also suspect that at 300 yds you would or couls see a larger frontal diameter on that same bullet.

Again, where did that bullet end up.

[Lonnie]

what was the depth of penetration and what was the tissue damage do to hydrostatic shock. we are conditioned to expect a bullet to mushroom and expend all its energy in the animal . but there are places in the world that don't allow soft tipped ammo. and lots of animals get killed just as dead there with hard points.(FMJ) all in all it comes down more to shot placement than bullet performance. any bullet sold for the purpose of hunting usualy will kill quite well with decent shot placement

[Lefty-Canuck]

209X50 and I are not allowed to discuss the effects of bullets....that is one thing that is safe to say.... :)

LC

[209x50]

That looks like a diameter of .554, or around there?
Looks awful close, If the petals had all hung on it would have exceeded 2x I'd think.

[209x50]

209X50 and I are not allowed to discuss the effects of bullets....that is one thing that is safe to say.... :)

LC
Why is that?

[Lefty-Canuck]

Why is that?

You don't recall one of my first ever threads here about bullet performance and ______ shock......I shutter to mention it again :)

....probably good your memory is short on that one :) or you have blocked it out forever....

LC

[209x50]

You don't recall one of my first ever threads here about bullet performance and ______ shock......I shutter to mention it again :)

....probably good your memory is short on that one :) or you have blocked it out forever....

LC
Ahh,,, there have been so many to educate and so little time...:sHa_shakeshout:

[Lefty-Canuck]

Ahh,,, there have been so many to educate and so little time...:sHa_shakeshout:

....yaaaaa.....thats it......:)

LC

[Roebag]

I'll have the information on where the bullet ended up tomorrow some time

[HunterDave]

The second picture looks like there was more expansion on one side. Maybe the bullet hit bone going in and then turned sideways. Have a look at the exit wound on this beer. Congrats on the elk BTW. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFwmf__mNVc

[Ice Fishing Maniac]

I thought the XP3's were to have large frontal expansion with high weight retention....to me looks like it performed almost accordingly except for initial expansion...I had Fail Safes do the same, and the XP3's have some similar design features as the FS.

Maybe being a very close range shot, just didnt fully expand. I had other bullets do the same at close range on a large cow elk and a mulie buck a few years back.

IMO, you have meat inthe freezer so you are GOOD TO GO !!! Keep using the ammo.

[Jamie Black R/T]

ive shot that exact same round out of my 270 for years and they are devastating.

taken elk, moose and MANY whitetail/mule deer with them. Thats my favorite factory load for sure.

[savage shooter]

http://www.chuckhawks.com/winchester_supreme_XP3.htm

Having a solid copper core in front of a bonded lead rear core doesn't make much sense.

Federal's approach with their Bonded Trophy Tip seems much better for faster expansion. The polymer tip and bonded lead frontal core will obviously expand faster than solid copper and then it has a copper rear core for deep penetration.

No matter what Winchester claims, this bullet is obviously not really designed for quick expansion.

[Ice Fishing Maniac]

http://www.chuckhawks.com/winchester_supreme_XP3.htm

Having a solid copper core in front of a bonded lead rear core doesn't make much sense.

Federal's approach with their Bonded Trophy Tip seems much better for faster expansion. The polymer tip and bonded lead frontal core will obviously expand faster than solid copper and then it has a copper rear core for deep penetration.

No matter what Winchester claims, this bullet is obviously not really designed for quick expansion.

Winchester more than likely went with copper as a marketing thing since in some US States, such as California, you cant use lead bullets anymore. Barnes TSX/TTSX, Nosler E-tips-all copper bullet construction.

I know if I could use the XP3's for reloading I would. I had great success with the Fail Safes years ago, then switched to Partition Golds in 1997, then the Accubonds in 2003/04 in the factory Winchester Supreme ammo.

Since 2005, Accubonds are my choice of bullet in all my big game rifles. LOVE THEM!!!

Keep shooting the XP#'s in your 270. If they shoot good, and game is down, you have no issues. Be interesting if you recover a bullet from an animal from a shot say 150-250 metres, then you can compare.

[209x50]

http://www.chuckhawks.com/winchester_supreme_XP3.htm

Having a solid copper core in front of a bonded lead rear core doesn't make much sense.

Federal's approach with their Bonded Trophy Tip seems much better for faster expansion. The polymer tip and bonded lead frontal core will obviously expand faster than solid copper and then it has a copper rear core for deep penetration.

No matter what Winchester claims, this bullet is obviously not really designed for quick expansion.
Sure it makes lots of sense. The copper petals open fast and easily. The lead in the base gives the bullet better stability and the bullet is shorter than an all copper bullet. I've shot lots of these bullets into critters and gel at various speeds and performance has always been very good.

[209x50]

Winchester more than likely went with copper as a marketing thing since in some US States, such as California, you cant use lead bullets anymore. Barnes TSX/TTSX, Nosler E-tips-all copper bullet construction.

.
These bullets have lead in them and aren't legal in lead free areas.

[savage shooter]

Winchester more than likely went with copper as a marketing thing since in some US States, such as California, you cant use lead bullets anymore. Barnes TSX/TTSX, Nosler E-tips-all copper bullet construction.

I know if I could use the XP3's for reloading I would. I had great success with the Fail Safes years ago, then switched to Partition Golds in 1997, then the Accubonds in 2003/04 in the factory Winchester Supreme ammo.

Since 2005, Accubonds are my choice of bullet in all my big game rifles. LOVE THEM!!!

Keep shooting the XP#'s in your 270. If they shoot good, and game is down, you have no issues. Be interesting if you recover a bullet from an animal from a shot say 150-250 metres, then you can compare.

Uh...okay except they have a lead core in the rear.

[savage shooter]

Sure it makes lots of sense. The copper petals open fast and easily. The lead in the base gives the bullet better stability and the bullet is shorter than an all copper bullet. I've shot lots of these bullets into critters and gel at various speeds and performance has always been very good.

No, it doesn't make any sense. Copper is aprx 20x harder than lead. Lead being very soft will open and expand much more quickly. There's no two ways about it. This bullet is designed for deep penetration, not quick opening no matter what they claim.

Bullets designed with a bonded lead front core for rapid expansion and a solid copper rear core for deep penetration make much more sense. It's the best of both worlds.

This bullet hit an ELK at less than 50 meters. Imagine what it would look like it if it hit a little dear at say 200 meters. Hardly any expansion, I'm sure.

Here is what Winchester has to say bout this particular round:

Features:

Delayed controlled expansion, deep penetration, high retained weight.

Notice that 'quick expanding' is not mentioned. In fact, it's delayed expansion.

[catnthehat]

No, it doesn't make any sense. Copper is aprx 20x harder than lead. Lead being very soft will open and expand much more quickly. There's no two ways about it. This bullet is designed for deep penetration, not quick opening no matter what they claim.

Bullets designed with a bonded lead front core for rapid expansion and a solid copper rear core for deep penetration make much more sense. It's the best of both worlds.

This bullet hit an ELK at less than 50 meters. Imagine what it would look like it if it hit a little dear at say 200 meters. Hardly any expansion, I'm sure.

Here is what Winchester has to say bout this particular round:



Notice that 'quick expanding' is not mentioned. In fact, it's delayed expansion.
The H mantel bullet for years had a softer lead front and a arder lead core, for weight retention.
the copper acted as the skeletn for it.
When barnes first made his mom metal bullets , he worked for a very long time to perfect the way the bullets expanded, and it is still accepted that an H mantel style of bullet is easier to produce and control than the mono metal type.

he features you mentioned however, are not the same ones that 209X50 mentioned....
Cat

[sheephunter]

No, it doesn't make any sense. Copper is aprx 20x harder than lead. Lead being very soft will open and expand much more quickly. There's no two ways about it. .

Unless the copper is at the front of the bullet and is designed in such a way that the pedals will peel back while the softer lead at the rear is bonded to a copper jacket designed not to expand. Your theory makes sense if the lead was not protected by a jacket.....but it is.

This bullet hit an ELK at less than 50 meters. Imagine what it would look like it if it hit a little dear at say 200 meters. Hardly any expansion, I'm sure.



I suspect the pedals broke off because of the violent expansion. They are only designed to go to about 2x...this one easily did that.

[savage shooter]

Yes, the jacket does inhibit expansion of a lead core but obviously a thin copper jacket will slow expansion down less than a solid copper front core.


IMO the best bullet being manufactured is the Trophy Bonded Tip.

It's got a polymer tip to initiate rapid expansion, a soft lead core bonded to a thin copper jacket so it will not separate and a solid rear copper core for extra penetration.

Additionally, it has three concentric rings to allow the nickle plating on the bullet (nickle is slightly softer than copper) to flow into those rings when the rifling cuts in. This means you can load the bullet hotter with less pressure. Federal's loads go to 3200fps with this bullet and only 3060 with other bullets (270).

Faster velocity, very rapid expansion, bonded front core, solid copper rear core.

What more could you ask for?

"All bullets recovered looked exactly the same: broad, beautiful mushroom up front and a long, straight shank behind. In appearance, a recovered Trophy Tip looks very similar to Jack Carter's Trophy Bonded Bearclaw or even a Swift A-Frame. This is very high praise. Weight retention has been 95 percent and better. Accuracy has also been very good, pretty much in line with whatever accuracy a given rifle generally delivers."

http://archives.petersenshunting.com/content/tipped-and-bonded/2

[sheephunter]

Yes, the jacket does inhibit expansion of a lead core but obviously a thin copper jacket will slow expansion down less than a solid copper front core.




I think the one thing you are missing is that "solid" copper face is designed to expand and the base is not. It's got far more to do with design than the hardness of the materials.

[209x50]

No, it doesn't make any sense. Copper is aprx 20x harder than lead. Lead being very soft will open and expand much more quickly. There's no two ways about it. This bullet is designed for deep penetration, not quick opening no matter what they claim.

Bullets designed with a bonded lead front core for rapid expansion and a solid copper rear core for deep penetration make much more sense. It's the best of both worlds.

This bullet hit an ELK at less than 50 meters. Imagine what it would look like it if it hit a little dear at say 200 meters. Hardly any expansion, I'm sure.

Here is what Winchester has to say bout this particular round:



Notice that 'quick expanding' is not mentioned. In fact, it's delayed expansion.
The bullet isn't pure copper, it is gilding metal and it is pre scored and uses a polymer tip to guarantee expansion.
The bullet would look the same at 200 meters or 400. The bullet is designed for controlled expansion and it never gets any more out of shape than it is in this example. The part some don't understand is that it doesn't take a lot to make it expand.

[Ice Fishing Maniac]

Here is a link to You Tube on the XP3's by Winchester

Yes you are correct Savage Shooter - lead core. I havent followed upi too much on this bullet since I cant reload it, so I stick to my Accubonds.

Winchester Supreme Elite XP3 Bullet (http://youtu.be/HhRQbvXrK1A)

XP3's Info (http://youtu.be/tWk_mVKh5yM)

XP3's - WS more info (http://youtu.be/jHrkLzZP_jY)

[podman]

i think that the elk was pretty impressed with the bullets performance.

lol:)