7mmrm Not effective at closer range?

[bessiedog]

So I love my 7mmrm. The extended range is gonna really come in handy now that I can shoot between 2-350 yards.. But I have some questions as I'm not a super ballistics hound and just don;t know. Can you guys help me?

I was talking about my purchasing my 7mm with a couple of very experienced hunter friends of mine from Cranbrook. They both said that my choice would be a poor one as 'the bullet is travelling too fast' and this in their opinion leads to poor energy transferrence to the animal and a higher possibility of 'bone deflection' when the shot is made within 100 - 150 yards or so. They say they've seen more animals walk away from lethal shots with 7mms and similar rifles than they have with any other type of caliber.... they were pretty confident about their opinions.
I kindof dismissed this talk... But I did shoot a supplemental doe last year at about 70 yards. It trotted away and I had to find it the next morning (found the birds on it). My entry shot was spot on, but the bullet (162 grain hornaday store bought) seemed to have deflected of the rib-shoulder and did a reverse texas heart shot thing.
It stank by the morning and I was only able to salvage the backstraps and the front shoulders...

Were these guys right? Does this happen to people with 7mms lots?

Whats your guys's experience.


My choice of the Hornaday isnt super particular, i've run Remmingtons and Winchesters through my rifle... the Hornadays seem to group best out to 300.

different bullet maybe?

[Scott N]

I think your friend's theory is out to lunch personally. If I shot an animal at close range with a 7mm mag, my biggest concern would be excesive meat damage.

[ducimus]

thats a large grain for a whitetail, what type of tip do you have on it?

[bessiedog]

I'm usually hunting an area that gives me a small chance at filling my elk tag.
162 is packed in case of the chance meeting.

I did buy some 139 grain ones, but i've never run them through my rifle so I'm hesitant to hunt w/them.

the 162s are lead tipped.... I figured they'd expand pretty good.

[muzzleloader16]

A hole through the lungs (or heart) at 50 yards or 250 will drop the deer.

Technically, energy decreases as velocity decreases. I have shot deer where the bullet entered between the ribs and exited between the ribs and gave little opportunity for expansion. The deer did run but left a huge blood trail.

Some bullets expand quicker and easier than others and some almost seem to need to hit a bone to expand.

In my opinion, you can't go too far wrong with a 7mm. Btw, I shoot a 30.06, a 300 Weatherby, a 243, and a muzzleloader ........... and they all drop deer.

Just my thoughts!

[savage shooter]

There is some merit to what they're saying when using traditional cup and core bullets. In your Hornady, if you were using an SST, sometimes they do break apart and have poor penetration beyond bone when traveling extremely quickly.

The solution is to use a bonded bullet such as the Interbond or Accubond. They will not break up. When using a premium bullet like this, 7mm has no downsides besides recoil.

[ducimus]

must've just been an unlucky shot last year man, i hunt with a 7mm remington and i'm afraid that if i hit the deer anywhere other then the neck its a wasted animal. bullets can do some loopy things when they get inside a body, but usually higher velocity with a larger grain causes alot more cavitation.

[ACKLEY ABE]

HOOEY..... Nothin wrong with Hornady bullets or 7 Rem (although I'm not a big fan of it).

Tell your buddies to quit smoking the knicinac.

[PoppaW]

I say the experienced guys are full of it. I have used faster bullets very effectively for years in a 7mm WBY. My wife used a 139gr on an elk. 3350fps and a pass through. Lots of shrapnel on the way through and one dead elk. I went with the 150gr TSX as it shoots best in this gun. Accubonds and partitions worked well too but the TSX was a tighter group. I think they perform better on game too.
Your 7mm is perfect for 10-400yards in my mind. Maybe a different bullet.

[bessiedog]

Well... I haven't decided to give up the gun.

I whacked another deer at about 180 yards or so and the exit wound was about 1/2 the size of my fist... which is what I'd like to see.

I'll look into accubond or other bonded rounds.... maybe i'll make a change next season.

I'm not too worried about the kick... the $40 libsaver I put on it is worth its weight in gold man!

[Lefty-Canuck]

HOOEY..... Nothin wrong with Hornady bullets or 7 Rem (although I'm not a big fan of it).

Tell your buddies to quit smoking the knicinac.

Sooo funny you brought that word up....I haven't heard that since I was in a botany lab in college and people brought bags of it home to dry up in our industrial sized plant dryers at college of course it was for our "plant collection" project :)

LC

[rem338win]

Wow, that is a doozy. They have no idea what they are talking about unfortunately.
The issue with the faster mags is always too much expansion/bullet destruction at short range, which can and is regulated well by premium controlled expansion bullets. On the other note bullet deflection is an anomoly really and can hardly be replicated, but does happen. It can very very very rarely be attributed to a cartridge (hence velocity) and bullet type combination. Enough people in this world use your combination that I doubt that is it.
My advice to you is keep your 7mm Rem Mag, and stick with just the 162gr Interlock, knowing that it will expand well and a little more rapidly at the sub 100yd mark. Or by a different brand of ammunition with a controlled expansion bullet. A great and inexpensive brand worth trying is the Federal Fusion 150gr in the 7mm Rem Mag, and it would do well on deer and elk close to far. You could spend a little more and move into the premium stuff like Winchesters Accubonds or XP3 or Remington's Scirocco, Swift or Bonded Corelokt, and the Federal Premiums with Trophy Bonded to Partition.
Bullet selection is more of the issue to be discussed than cartridge.

Do any of these experts use .270's or 300 Win Mags?

[ACKLEY ABE]

Sooo funny you brought that word up....I haven't heard that since I was in a botany lab in college and people brought bags of it home to dry up in our industrial sized plant dryers at college of course it was for our "plant collection" project :)

LC

Obviously it destroys all intelligent thought.

[catnthehat]

There is nothing wrong with a 160-162 grain bullet froma 7Mag on a deer at close range .
Wha is a person supposed to do, let it run away until it's 150 yards out?:sHa_sarcasticlol:
at close range there are a lot of cartridges and bullet designs that are not the ultimate, but if you shoot the animal in th elungs yo are not ging to damge a lot of the more useable meat anyway.
the 160 Game king BTW is the bullet i used to load most in the 7mag.....
Cat

[32-40win]

I'd just write that deflection off to being "one of those weird shots". Hit something the right way, at the right angle, it could happen to any bullet.
I wouldn't be concerned unless it was a shoulder shot that blew up on the bone and did not penetrate.

[bessiedog]

and said they suffered from pretty much the same thing.

I think I'll chalk up last yeatrs doe to a freak occurrance.

kinicanic:
I thought you just ate the berries or made tea , never heard of smoking it.

[Justin.C]

Well... I haven't decided to give up the gun.

I whacked another deer at about 180 yards or so and the exit wound was about 1/2 the size of my fist... which is what I'd like to see.

I'll look into accubond or other bonded rounds.... maybe i'll make a change next season.

I'm not too worried about the kick... the $40 libsaver I put on it is worth its weight in gold man!I shoot a 7 RUM. Stay away from the 139's if you are shooting fast I had a sst blow up just after the hide on a moose.I shoot 168 grain bullets in mine. I would recommend 160 accubonds. They hold together and shoot well. I my self use bergers and love them but they work different than a sst or a bonded core bullet. I also do not like unleaded bullets. I hope this helps.... Also I have shot deer at 8 yards to 760 yards with a 7mm so just shoot it and love it.:sHa_shakeshout:

[HIBACKPACKER]

I shot a huge Whitetail a few years ago front on with the 7mm Wby at less then 60 yards. It hit the ground like it had been hit by a freight train. Like I have always said, you shot them with a Weatherby and there is no need for a second round. My round was 140 Nosler accubond with 77grs of IMR 7828 and 215 Federal primers.

[savage shooter]

They have no idea what they are talking about unfortunately.
The issue with the faster mags is always too much expansion/bullet destruction at short range, which can and is regulated well by premium controlled expansion bullets.

So they have no idea what they're talking about yet you confirm what they're talking about in your second sentence?

Oooookay. They're right. Magnum velocities at close range often results in shredded and destroyed cup and core bullets, especially on bone.

Nice premium bullets are recommended. Bonded or monolithic construction.

[209x50]

So I love my 7mmrm. The extended range is gonna really come in handy now that I can shoot between 2-350 yards.. But I have some questions as I'm not a super ballistics hound and just don;t know. Can you guys help me?

I was talking about my purchasing my 7mm with a couple of very experienced hunter friends of mine from Cranbrook. They both said that my choice would be a poor one as 'the bullet is travelling too fast' and this in their opinion leads to poor energy transferrence to the animal and a higher possibility of 'bone deflection' when the shot is made within 100 - 150 yards or so. They say they've seen more animals walk away from lethal shots with 7mms and similar rifles than they have with any other type of caliber.... they were pretty confident about their opinions.
I kindof dismissed this talk... But I did shoot a supplemental doe last year at about 70 yards. It trotted away and I had to find it the next morning (found the birds on it). My entry shot was spot on, but the bullet (162 grain hornaday store bought) seemed to have deflected of the rib-shoulder and did a reverse texas heart shot thing.
It stank by the morning and I was only able to salvage the backstraps and the front shoulders...

Were these guys right? Does this happen to people with 7mms lots?

Whats your guys's experience.


My choice of the Hornaday isnt super particular, i've run Remmingtons and Winchesters through my rifle... the Hornadays seem to group best out to 300.

different bullet maybe?
What does go through peoples heads? The wind? Sorry but that is the silliest day dream I've heard in a long time. You shootem they'll die.

[bessiedog]

I wanted to try the world of long distance shooting (not with bows! J/K). So my research said this is the caliber that'll suit me.

I'm kindof prepping for antelope in 2 years. I'm priority 9 and I'mm gonna 99 it until the populations get better. I figure 300-350 yard shots on 'Lopes is probably the norm.

I'm gonna stick with the Hornadays.. I'll let you know how they do on my cow elk tag in two weeks.... that should be about a 100- 300 yard shot in 306.


and yes... 200-350 is long distance for me. My fav caliber is a 303 iron sights.

[catnthehat]

[QUOTE=bessiedog;1106451]I kindof dismissed this talk... But I did shoot a supplemental doe last year at about 70 yards. It trotted away and I had to find it the next morning (found the birds on it). My entry shot was spot on, but the bullet (162 grain hornaday store bought) seemed to have deflected of the rib-shoulder and did a reverse texas heart shot thing.
It stank by the morning and I was only able to salvage the backstraps and the front shoulders...
QUOTE]
I have seen deflections with everything from hard cast 45/70 bullets to barnes X bullets in several calibers and everythig in between .
We cannot bet 100% what a bullet will do all the time, sometimes they do weird things.
it's not so much the cartridge or bullet but the circumstances of the hit at the time.....
Cat

[rem338win]

So they have no idea what they're talking about yet you confirm what they're talking about in your second sentence?

Oooookay. They're right. Magnum velocities at close range often results in shredded and destroyed cup and core bullets, especially on bone.

Nice premium bullets are recommended. Bonded or monolithic construction.

You not reading so gooder today? The "experts" said that at close range there was poor energy transfer, lots of deflection, and lethal bullet placement not being so lethal because of the "cartridge". All of that is phooey, and do you know what happens to soft bullets when the impact at high speed? They expand really rapidly, transferring all their energy, losing mass (smearing and fragmenting) and retarding penetration. This is relative and is a situation to situation basis. It doesn't cause a lack of energy transfer, deflection or JFK to magically die.
Ooookay? Do I need pictures and crayons too? I wrote what I did to explain where the experts got their old wives tales from, so the OP understood what would actually be happening.

[Dr. Phil A]

Never had one walk away from my 7mm RM. I use a 175 gr soft point. Most animals folded like a cheap tent in the high wind.

[rem338win]

Same as Cat I gave seen and heard the same things from 30-30 to 300 Weatherby. Speer HP to Accubonds, and all the deflections where just freaks of circumstance.

[BigJon]

Same as Cat I gave seen and heard the same things from 30-30 to 300 Weatherby. Speer HP to Accubonds, and all the deflections where just freaks of circumstance.

x2

Sometimes bullets do crazy things. Out moose hunting with a friend one time, he shot a young bull, slightly quartering towards us and hit him high. The bullet hit spine (dropping the animal instantly) and then took a sharp turn and most of the bullet exited just in front of the hind quarter on the same side that the entrance was on. It was a 150 grain bullet fired from a .270 WSM and I seem to recall the bullet being a Nosler Partition but I am not 100% sure on that anymore...

[BallCoeff.435]

For hunting, just carry two kinds of cartridges. One with relatively heavy bullets and modest powder charge, and one a little lighter and loaded hotter. Use the first at shorter ranges, and the second at longer ones. Both with Interlocks or Partitions. Or even TSX's if you're one of 'those' kind of guys...

[Straightgun]

I shot a doe with my 7mm rem mag using cheap factory federal power shock. shot it from about 20 - 30 yards away and the dear did a cart-wheel, had a exit hole the size of a beach ball, and dropped dead. It wasn't going anywhere trust me.

[Justin.C]

For hunting, just carry two kinds of cartridges. One with relatively heavy bullets and modest powder charge, and one a little lighter and loaded hotter. Use the first at shorter ranges, and the second at longer ones. Both with Interlocks or Partitions. Or even TSX's if you're one of 'those' kind of guys...I would not do the two loads..... Just pick a good preiume bullet and se what shoots best and use only that one. the other way you are not optimizing your gun or your bullets.You also do not need to try to figure out witch bullet is what when the moment of truth comes as both will shoot different.

[The Rog Man]

I nailed a white tail with my 7MM rem mag at about 70 yards with a 162 Hornady SST and the deer did a sideways summersault and had a hole i could put my fist through!!
Granted i hit a rib and it proceeded to take out the rib on either side, I have the pics of the deer dressed out somewhere so i think your friends are way off base.
The bullet type and weather conditions play a part aswell, It was a warm day when i got that deer so i think the SST expanded quite efficiently.
However I have shot deer at distance with my 7MM and taken out both lungs clean and watched them run into the treeline,He didn't get far but it was far enough to make me think i missed him till i got to the spot and saw all the foamy blood.

[elkhunter11]

I was talking about my purchasing my 7mm with a couple of very experienced hunter friends of mine from Cranbrook. They both said that my choice would be a poor one as 'the bullet is travelling too fast' and this in their opinion leads to poor energy transferrence to the animal and a higher possibility of 'bone deflection' when the shot is made within 100 - 150 yards or so. They say they've seen more animals walk away from lethal shots with 7mms and similar rifles than they have with any other type of caliber.... they were pretty confident about their opinions.

You need to find someone else to take advice from, someone that actually has a clue what they are talking about.

[Pep]

Wow..I have used cheaper federal ammo at 150gr in my 7mm for years and knocked down deer from 15 yards to 250 yds. I now shoot the 139 gr Hornady GMX and it works just fine. It doesn't matter what you use..it is where you hit them. hit them in the boiler room and they go down... and you can always get a fluke deflection no matter what you use

[sns2]

I'm sure your friends in Cranbrook are fine fellows, but they need to lay off the hippie lettuce. If you're fifty yards away, shoot it in the neck if you're really worried. Seriously, don't worry about it. Traditional bullets kill animals dead. Premium bullets kill em dead. Put the bullet in the boiler room and skin your animal.

[mike780]

i also have a 7mm rem mag and i shot a deer at 50-60yards right threw the lungs.... took me about a hour to find!! because i didnt see it drop 10ft away from where i shot it in long grass i was looking way behind the dam thing!

anyways yes 7mm will drop them quickly.

i used winchester super x 175grain that day.

[Big Daddy Badger]

I suspect that if they are from Cranbrook they've seen more walk aways because a bullet was deflected by a twig or branch before it struck the animal....at a point other than the intended POI.

Lighter faster bullets do have more problems chopping through wood than some of the slower and heavier ones.

i grew up in Kimberley and the guys with 270's, 7mm's etc did well with their rifles but had to be a bit more cautious about trying to push one through the brush than guys carrying (for instance) a 45/70 or 30-30.

The other thing is...Being a Kimberley guy...I'd take anything a Cranbrook lowlander said...with a grain of salt:):scared0018:

[209x50]

Lighter faster bullets do have more problems chopping through wood than some of the slower and heavier ones.


Another old wives tale that is on par with the bullets going to fast to expand.

[elkhunter11]

Another old wives tale that is on par with the bullets going to fast to expand.


+1 That ridiculous myth seems to keep on resurfacing.

[Jadham]

They say they've seen more animals walk away from lethal shots with 7mms and similar rifles than they have with any other type of caliber.... they were pretty confident about their opinions.


This may raise a few eyebrows :scared:... but many people who shoot "hot" calibres do develop a flinch (often unconsciously)... maybe their observances were the result of animals not hit well? It can be hard to say it was a "lethal" shot if the animal walks away.

[elkhunter11]

This may raise a few eyebrows ... but many people who shoot "hot" calibres do develop a flinch (often unconsciously)... maybe their observances were the result of animals not hit well? It can be hard to say it was a "lethal" shot if the animal walks away.


The recoil of a 7mmremmag is so close to that of a 30-06, that any differences are pretty much meaningless.

[Hunter Trav]

The recoil of a 7mmremmag is so close to that of a 30-06, that any differences are pretty much meaningless.

Yes but some people can't handle the recoil of either of those calibers...

[32-40win]

And yet ,Trav, some of those same people will think nothing of shooting 3" 12ga.

[Jadham]

The recoil of a 7mmremmag is so close to that of a 30-06, that any differences are pretty much meaningless.

Supposedly the US military found that the average rifleman developed a flinch firing the .30-06 out of the M1... granted it had a steel butt plate.

I also have to wonder why they developed a managed recoil load for the 30-06 if no one had problems with the recoil.

[elkhunter11]

Supposedly the US military found that the average rifleman developed a flinch firing the .30-06 out of the M1...


So using a 7mmremmag instead of a 30-06, isn't likely going to be a factor.

[Jadham]

So using a 7mmremmag instead of a 30-06, isn't likely going to be a factor.

Still have to wonder why those experienced hunters are saying they notice more game running away from 7mmRM.

It seems it is more plausible that it may be due to flinching and poor shots rather than lack of energy transfer.

[Big Daddy Badger]

+1 That ridiculous myth seems to keep on resurfacing.

Well.
I guess we'll have to disagree there.

Seems like simple physics to me... course the variables can be switched out to lessen or amplify effect. And the differences can be marginal in something as small as a bullet...

The main thing is...I think...that lighter faster bullets may fragment more and have less mass by the time they strike the animal. Smaller bullet...moving faster... greater % of weight loss....assuming bullet construction is the same as the heavier slower one.
Also...lighter objects constructed of the same materials shapes etc are easier to stop than their heavier counterparts which is why we need to compensate by increasing velocity.

No matter...

At least you don't dispute my theory about guys from Cranbrook...lol

[Hunter Trav]

And yet ,Trav, some of those same people will think nothing of shooting 3" 12ga.

Yes thats true, but you'll probably never notice a flinch when shotgunning, you just take less birds, and then blame the steel shot...

[elkhunter11]

Still have to wonder why those experienced hunters are saying they notice more game running away from 7mmRM.

It seems it is more plausible that it may be due to POOR BULLET SELECTION and poor shots rather than lack of energy transfer.


There, I fixed it for you. As for the experienced hunters part, I know a few very experienced hunters that are terrible shots, and that have no clue as to proper bullet selection.

[Jadham]

There, I fixed it for you. As for the experienced hunters part, I know a few very experienced hunters that are terrible shots, and that have no clue as to proper bullet selection.

Fair enough.

[nof60]

I had a 7mmRM in a Sako. Not impressed whatsoever with it (the cartridge, not the gun) until I started shooting the Speers with the Trophy Bonded Bearclaws. Than it was OK I guess. I had the same thing you are describing happen with a moose. I cant remember what shells I was using but until I went to the bearclaws I was ready to sell the gun. At close ranges it for some reason didnt seem to kill them as it should but I really do not know why. I did not reload back then. After the bearclaws I used it to take a griz. I eventually turned the rifle into a .338 and than sold it. I will never again own one (a 7mm mag of any description). It didn't really seem too much better than a .270 or a 7mm08 at anything other than kicking. I found it was overkill for deer and caribou and too small for moose, buffalo, elk, or grizzlys.

Just my opinion and its worth about what you are paying for it.

I now shoot a .300 wby, 7mm08, .375 handh and a 22-250

[nof60]

This may raise a few eyebrows :scared:... but many people who shoot "hot" calibres do develop a flinch (often unconsciously)... maybe their observances were the result of animals not hit well? It can be hard to say it was a "lethal" shot if the animal walks away.

I want to say something to this. I don't believe that caliber selection has as much to do with flinch as stock design and honestly what you paid for the rifle. I have a .300WBY in an accumark and can go to the range and easily sail 20+ rounds with no ill effect. I shot a .300WBY in a Vanguard and after 3 shots handed the gun back to the owner and said thank you very much. I have a vanguard in .338 win mag with a crappy ramline stock and 4 shells is 3 too many at the range. I have shot and owned a few Sakos in .338 and they were not too bad. I have my dads rem 7600 in .270 and shooting it makes me cry. I have a TC PH in .270 and its pretty easy on a person.

My point is don't start blaming certain "calibres" for flinch. Blame cheap guns for flinch.

And by the way, we all flinch. Dont believe me? Dry fire your rifle and see where the crosshairs move or better yet get a friend to either load it or leave it empty and hand it to you and see where the crosshairs land on the dryfires.

[pseelk]

Those expierienced guys know absolutely nothing about the 7mm if thats what thier telling you.I have used my 7mms scince 1982,Ive shot everything from deer to elk to bears at all ranges over the years and have never lost one shot through the lungs yet.The only difference is I only use 175gr handloads.

[Jadham]

I want to say something to this. I don't believe that caliber selection has as much to do with flinch as stock design and honestly what you paid for the rifle. I have a .300WBY in an accumark and can go to the range and easily sail 20+ rounds with no ill effect. I shot a .300WBY in a Vanguard and after 3 shots handed the gun back to the owner and said thank you very much. I have a vanguard in .338 win mag with a crappy ramline stock and 4 shells is 3 too many at the range. I have shot and owned a few Sakos in .338 and they were not too bad. I have my dads rem 7600 in .270 and shooting it makes me cry. I have a TC PH in .270 and its pretty easy on a person.

My point is don't start blaming certain "calibres" for flinch. Blame cheap guns for flinch.

And by the way, we all flinch. Dont believe me? Dry fire your rifle and see where the crosshairs move or better yet get a friend to either load it or leave it empty and hand it to you and see where the crosshairs land on the dryfires.

Obviously both calibre and gun design are important. If one is at the range and the same rifle is being fired, say a T3, the 338 win mag is more bothersome than a 243 with that rifle. The higher inherent recoil of a calibre, the more important the fit of the rifle becomes. Even if a .22 rifle fits you poorly, you likely won't develop a serious flinch from it.

Certainly older, "traditional", calibers can cause flinching... but a hotter load will increase recoil, and the likelihood of flinching (unless one compensates by improving the fit of the rifle, uses muzzle brakes, etc.).

When I talk to people at work, store, range, etc., I am amazed how many new hunters have robust calibers as their first and only firearm. For my original post, I merely speculated whether the experienced hunters are making their observation of other (supposedly younger and newer hunters) poor results with a 7mmRM because of poor and missed shots. Of course, it may poor transfer of bullet energy, poor bullet choice, etc....I am just suggesting there may be alternative explanations for their observations.

[Traps]

Choose a controlled expansion bullet like etip, gmx, tsx, ttsx and you'll be fine. Lead bullets are more apt to fail then the newer mono's at close range.

[gopher]

I want to say something to this. I don't believe that caliber selection has as much to do with flinch as stock design and honestly what you paid for the rifle. I have a .300WBY in an accumark and can go to the range and easily sail 20+ rounds with no ill effect. I shot a .300WBY in a Vanguard and after 3 shots handed the gun back to the owner and said thank you very much. I have a vanguard in .338 win mag with a crappy ramline stock and 4 shells is 3 too many at the range. I have shot and owned a few Sakos in .338 and they were not too bad. I have my dads rem 7600 in .270 and shooting it makes me cry. I have a TC PH in .270 and its pretty easy on a person.

My point is don't start blaming certain "calibres" for flinch. Blame cheap guns for flinch.

And by the way, we all flinch. Dont believe me? Dry fire your rifle and see where the crosshairs move or better yet get a friend to either load it or leave it empty and hand it to you and see where the crosshairs land on the dryfires.

A fairly interesting thing to do is set up a video camera when you’re shooting off the bench. It was eye opening for me.

[bessiedog]

There was a flinch when I first bought it. I did a thread on it a couple years ago here. Took some advice and bought a limb saver.
I've been to the range over 20 times learning the new gun and how to shoot some distance shots. I can say with confidence... There's no flinch and my form is fine.
I've been shooting deer for 25+ years now. Both bang sticks and bows. I've shot animals with slugs, 303s, 30 06, 7mm, and 308.

I know a well placed shot and I know a deflection hit.

Im going with a fluke hit on this one.
I guess it happens.

[7mmstwguy]

The 257 wby is one of the best killers I have ever seen. The notion of bullets going to fast is simply untrue. Bigger bores with proper bullets are better for penatrating heavy thick skin, muscle, etc. Knowing exactly where you are putting your bullets is way more important.

[LongBomber]

I would say the majority of the best hunters I have met, really have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to rifles/ammunition. Every year they get a decent elk, a nice mulie and a whitetail to be sure, and have several trophy animals to their name. They spend hours patterning game, learning to bugle better than a real elk, but shoot maybe 5 shots a year, and have no idea what the differences are between two different boxes of ammo. There is no understanding anything to do with ballistics or bullet construction what so ever. These are the kinds of guys where old wives tales come from.

So you know the kind of guys I'm talking about take a look at where I am from.

[Dick284]

I've read and re read this thread, and all I can say is wow.

The wives tales being bantered around is mind boggling.

All bullets deflect! How much is a function of how much yaw is induced on the bullet when deflected. Shape speed, and diameter play next to nothing in changing this fact.

The only problem I've ever witnessed wiith too fast of projectile, is getting too little penetration (explosive bullet upset) this is easily mitigated by going to a tougher constuction of bullet.

The 7mm Rem Mag has a deserved reputation as a game getter, for a reason....It has done it all before.

Comparing the 7mmRem Mag to a 30'06 is pretty much a loosing argumnet, as one will find with factory ammunition and same length barrels nary a hill of beans difference between the two.

Most hunters are over gunned for the most part. Once you exceed 20ftlbs of recoil, most everyone will find things a bit overwhelming in the long run. This precluides practicing, and becoming proficent with a firearm.
Have you ever stopped to wonder why all those remarkable stories surface surrounding big game and cartridges like the 243Win, 6.5x55, and 25'06, it's because they are comfortable to shoot, and therefore the shooter practices with it, and becomes proficent with it.

Lastly on the 5 shots per year gang...it was likely easier and definatly cheaper for some folks to become better woodsmen than shooters, at least that's was in a bygone era, or for a far smaller group in todays world. Today the population is predominatly urban dwelling, working 40hrs or more per week, providing for a family etc. The time spent in the woods is far less than once would have been spent due to this fact, so the bushcraft suffers. On a Saturday or Sunday off it is far more practicale in the more modern era to hone ones shooting skills, thus moving the focus on the tool rather than the trade.

[Lonnie]

it maybe a old wives tale about bullet deflection but I've seen it happen 1 shooter using 8mm mauser, the other 308 norma magnum 8mm using 170gr.308mag.using 200gr. shooting thuogh willows at about 50 yds. 8mm got 2 deer one in the ankle and one in the knee, 308 mag never touched a thing. later that same day 308 took 2 deer in the open with no problem thuogh both where deflected the larger slower bullets did not deflect or maybe they didn't fragment as bad, when going through the brush as much as the faster smaller and heaver bullets. old brush hunters liked there big slow calibers like 35 rem, 44-40, 32-40, 38-55, ect... over the super fast cartridges of the time like 250 sav., 300sav. 257 Roberts, there had to be a reason why they preferred the big slow ones in the brush.

[nof60]

You know I have been thinking about this all day (day has been slow) and a thought occured to me.

First let me clarify that I am no great fan of the 7mmRem Mag. I owned one and got rid of it. On the same token a friend hunts with a 7mmSTW and I have never seen it do anything that made me think I should run out and get one.

We all have heard the "old wives tales" about the 7mmRM. Wounding, bullet deflection, bullet fragmentation etc.

I have never heard these complaints about a 7mm-08, 270, 280 rem, 30-06, 300 mag of any description, any of the 6mms, .257 WBY or bob etc etc.

I have heard numerous people say that the .257 WBY kills far beyond its means and in my opinion so does the 22-250 which is fast as greased lightening.

So whats the deal with the 7mm Rem Mag? On paper they are excellant yet a lot of people (guides included) absolutely loathe them.

People critisize the WBYs for being expensive to shoot (brass and powder) and the .300 and .338 Win Mags for recoil. They critisize the 303s and 30-30s for having a trajectory like a rock. They critisize the big magnums as being overkill for North America and 22-250s and 223s and 243s for being to light for a lot of big game. They critisize the feeding issues of the short mags and the added weight needed for the long recievers for the others.

All these things are absolutely true.

So I guess what I am saying is where there is smoke there is probably fire and I have heard the same things over and over again about the 7mm Mags.

So would someone please explain this and not dismiss it as being from guys who cannot shoot or dont shoot enough or cannot read ballistics tables or whatever. One hears the same complaints about them again and again and you do not here these complaints about other calibres which makes me kinda wonder if there isnt something to it.

Now I am going to go make some popcorn

[MK2750]

Considering the relatively mild recoil and outstanding performance of the 7mm08, 7x57 and 280 rem, perhaps a person would be better served asking "why?" instead of "why not?" when considering the 7mm mag.

[elkhunter11]

We all have heard the "old wives tales" about the 7mmRM. Wounding, bullet deflection, bullet fragmentation etc.

I have never heard these complaints about a 7mm-08, 270, 280 rem, 30-06, 300 mag of any description, any of the 6mms, .257 WBY or bob etc etc.



I have heard the same things about magnum cartridges in general, and especially the smaller caliber high velocity magnums.

So whats the deal with the 7mm Rem Mag? On paper they are excellant yet a lot of people (guides included) absolutely loathe them.

And a lot of people that loathe them, either choose unsuitable bullets, or make poor shots, because they think that because it is a magnum, they don't have to worry about trajectory, or wind drift, and they think that all that they have to do is hit an animal anywhere, and it will fall over dead.

[walking buffalo]

HOOEY..... Nothin wrong with Hornady bullets or 7 Rem (although I'm not a big fan of it).

Tell your buddies to quit smoking the knicinac.

Sooo funny you brought that word up....I haven't heard that since I was in a botany lab in college and people brought bags of it home to dry up in our industrial sized plant dryers at college of course it was for our "plant collection" project :)

LC

Obviously it destroys all intelligent thought.

A Smokin' Recipe....

7-300 WBY, 160 Accubond, 81 gr H1000 and Kinnikinik = meat in the pan.:bad_boys_20:

http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy10/keetspics/DSC01985.jpg

[Lonnie]

I have heard the same things about magnum cartridges in general, and especially the smaller caliber high velocity magnums.



And a lot of people that loathe them, either choose unsuitable bullets, or make poor shots, because they think that because it is a magnum, they don't have to worry about trajectory, or wind drift, and they think that all that they have to do is hit an animal anywhere, and it will fall over dead.

I think that every concern about the 7mm mag is based on some thing and all combined it makes one think that the speed is to fast for the size of bullet even thuogh the 7mm is of a decent size in the magmun the speed is incredibly fast for that size and wind drift on small bullet at the long ranges that the 7mm is capable of wuold be quite a bit. and if you hit a bone its like a gernade went off at any thing under 150 yards.

[Lefty-Canuck]

A Smokin' Recipe....

7-300 WBY, 160 Accubond, 81 gr H1000 and Kinnikinik = meat in the pan.:bad_boys_20:

http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy10/keetspics/DSC01985.jpg

Thats a beautiful thing right there...is that a .300WBY necked down to 7mm?

The Kinnikinnick looks ripe...:)

LC

[Speckle55]

I have a Rem 700 BDL 7mm Mag since 1980 and have shot lots from Elk to Moose to Deer to Wolf never had a issue ... use 175g PP Super X Win 26$ .. i have a Bushnell Scopechief(1972) with a BDC on it and use a disc for 175g pp
and have shot all from 50 yds to 500yds.. the gun is deadly .. friend used my gun last year to shoot his mulie buck up hill at 422 yds set it at 400yds i have a new lepoild 1000 TBR that i ranged with.. ONE SHOT ONE KILL.. 46 inch bull moose and a 4x4 mulie for me last year one shot each:sHa_shakeshout: no meat wasted.

oh and by the way the US Secret Service still uses in their Sniper Program!

Nuff Said

Practice Practice
its not a gun that kills its the SHOOTER

Food for Thought
David

[elkhunter11]

I think that every concern about the 7mm mag is based on some thing and all combined it makes one think that the speed is to fast for the size of bullet even thuogh the 7mm is of a decent size in the magmun the speed is incredibly fast for that size and wind drift on small bullet at the long ranges that the 7mm is capable of wuold be quite a bit. and if you hit a bone its like a gernade went off at any thing under 150 yards.


The B.C. of the 7mm bullets is just as high as with the 308" bullets used in the 300 magnums, so the wind drift is comparable. As far as bullets grenading,with proper bullet selection, it isn't an issue.In fact, I use 140gr bullets at 3500fps out of my 7mmstw, and the impact velocities are often higher than the muzzle velocity of the same bullet out of a 7mmremmag. To this point, I have yet to have an issue.

[Lonnie]

The B.C. of the 7mm bullets is just as high as with the 308" bullets used in the 300 magnums, so the wind drift is comparable. As far as bullets grenading,with proper bullet selection, it isn't an issue.In fact, I use 140gr bullets at 3500fps out of my 7mmstw, and the impact velocities are often higher than the muzzle velocity of the same bullet out of a 7mmremmag. To this point, I have yet to have an issue.

back when the 7mm rem mag first came on the market, I got one only shells available at that time were 175 gr. had lots of deer with pencil holes and one mule deer hit in the back of the head, the head was a bag of mush but no exit wound I have no Idea of what the speed was but they were dominion shells

[elkhunter11]

back when the 7mm rem mag first came on the market, I got one only shells available at that time were 175 gr. had lots of deer with pencil holes and one mule deer hit in the back of the head, the head was a bag of mush but no exit wound I have no Idea of what the speed was but they were dominion shells

Simply more examples of poor bullets, not a fault with the cartridge.

[Big Daddy Badger]

it maybe a old wives tale about bullet deflection but I've seen it happen 1 shooter using 8mm mauser, the other 308 norma magnum 8mm using 170gr.308mag.using 200gr. shooting thuogh willows at about 50 yds. 8mm got 2 deer one in the ankle and one in the knee, 308 mag never touched a thing. later that same day 308 took 2 deer in the open with no problem thuogh both where deflected the larger slower bullets did not deflect or maybe they didn't fragment as bad, when going through the brush as much as the faster smaller and heaver bullets. old brush hunters liked there big slow calibers like 35 rem, 44-40, 32-40, 38-55, ect... over the super fast cartridges of the time like 250 sav., 300sav. 257 Roberts, there had to be a reason why they preferred the big slow ones in the brush.

Yup...All bullets deflect but lighter bullets turn easier a... it's simple physics.
They will also lose momentum on impact quicker so need to be sped up to achieve penetration... again...simple physics.

And there must be a reason why some calibers are more popular in some locals and less popular in others. Not many guys carrying 30-30's on the prairies and not many guys carrying quarter bores in thick bush.

2 bullets of the same design but one being larger and heavier the other faster and lighter... pass through a stand of buck brush on the way to an animal.

Both strike several branches and are deflected slightly by each impact.
Each loses about the same mass but the faster and lighter bullet tends to lose a greater percentage of it's mass than the heavier slower bullet.
Bullet speed is lost at about the same rate.

Both bullets finally find their mark.

The lighter faster one now has lost much of it's mass and speed so doesn't penetrate as well or deliver the kinetic energy it once had.
The heavier and slower bullet has lost about the same amount of mass but still retains more weight. It's speed has also slowed at about the same rate but because of the retention of mass... it penetrates better.

Just a theory... maybe a wives tail but having spent about half my life hunting in heavy timber and thick bush in the area the OP 's friends are from... when shooting through brush... the slower and heavier rounds seem to have the desired effect more frequently.

Poor shots?
Doesn't even matter... most of the time shots in those mountains and through brush... are well under 100 meters....often 50 meters or less.
Above the tree line in open country... the effect disappears.

Shot angle?
Most guys that grow up in the mountains know how and when to aim off for up and down hill shots... and again... at near distances... the need to aim off is usually negligible.

Wind?
The wind in that part of the country is predictable...it blows up and down hill every day... same time. It is usually gentle unless you are above the tree line or in the valley and in open country.
In thick brush and timber... it's usually not more than a gentle breeze. Finally...the affect of anything less than a very strong wind at the typical shooting distances (previously mentioned) is negligible.

Again... that doesn't mean you couldn't make up for the disadvantage by throwing tougher bullets out of the smaller bore/faster rifle.

[rem338win]

+1 That ridiculous myth seems to keep on resurfacing.

Well.
I guess we'll have to disagree there.

Seems like simple physics to me... course the variables can be switched out to lessen or amplify effect. And the differences can be marginal in something as small as a bullet...

The main thing is...I think...that lighter faster bullets may fragment more and have less mass by the time they strike the animal. Smaller bullet...moving faster... greater % of weight loss....assuming bullet construction is the same as the heavier slower one.
Also...lighter objects constructed of the same materials shapes etc are easier to stop than their heavier counterparts which is why we need to compensate by increasing velocity.

No matter...

At least you don't dispute my theory about guys from Cranbrook...lol

it maybe a old wives tale about bullet deflection but I've seen it happen 1 shooter using 8mm mauser, the other 308 norma magnum 8mm using 170gr.308mag.using 200gr. shooting thuogh willows at about 50 yds. 8mm got 2 deer one in the ankle and one in the knee, 308 mag never touched a thing. later that same day 308 took 2 deer in the open with no problem thuogh both where deflected the larger slower bullets did not deflect or maybe they didn't fragment as bad, when going through the brush as much as the faster smaller and heaver bullets. old brush hunters liked there big slow calibers like 35 rem, 44-40, 32-40, 38-55, ect... over the super fast cartridges of the time like 250 sav., 300sav. 257 Roberts, there had to be a reason why they preferred the big slow ones in the brush.

It is simple physics, and physicists have tested it extensively and have come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter in real world application. Making it an old wives tale.



oh and by the way the US Secret Service still uses in their Sniper Program!



I hate to call you on that David, but I highly doubt it, it isn't likely, and prove it. They would be more inclined to use the .308, or .300 Win Mag that the other agencies use, and for good reason.

[32-40win]

Bullets losing mass on the way to the target? That is a bit of a stretch, you may want to reexamine that theory. A bullet can self-destruct if driven too fast, but, it doesn't normally get anywhere near the target in that situation.
OP's bullet had already hit the target, deflected off a bone. Likely nothing at all wrong with the shot, or the bullet. Hit anything on the way to a target, the bullet will deflect, depends how far down range and how hard it hits whatever it hits as to how much deflection it gets. Doesn't matter the size of the bullet, the weight, it will deflect. You can prove that to yourself with arrows, they work to exactly the same principles in flight as a bullet, and you can see it.
Once it hits the target, that is another ballgame. People don't do the research on the bullet they are using, they can get bad results on impact. But, even then, the bullet hits a bone the right way going in, it will turn and go a different direction. Has nothing to do with the cartridge it was fired from in that case, or the bullet construction. If it self destructed on impact, or pencilled straight thru, that is a result of wrong bullet for the application, or, the distance of the target it was shot at.

[walking buffalo]

Thats a beautiful thing right there...is that a .300WBY necked down to 7mm?

The Kinnikinnick looks ripe...:)

LC

That's what it is. The Mark V loves this load, consistent 1/4" three shot groups at 100. I haven't shot many animals with this load, but have never had an issue with meat damage or funny wound channels.

I used to have serious meat damage issues with factory loads for the .257 Bob. These were underloaded for safety concerns with older models. There was one bullet choice available off the shelf back then, around 1984, a 100 gr winchester silver tip. Bullet fragmentation was awful! When 117 gr soft points became availble, they held together just fine.

I'll side with 7mm issues discussed here being related to bullet selection, not the caliber.



This is spring Kinnikinnick with the young flowers. A fall pick with ripe berries is also part of the program for ceremonial pipe tobbaco. A light toasting in the pan, and it's ready to be added to the mix. :)

[elkhunter11]

Thats a beautiful thing right there...is that a .300WBY necked down to 7mm?



Almost as beautiful as the 7mmstw, with almost the same ballistics.:)

[walking buffalo]

Almost as beautiful as the 7mmstw, with almost the same ballistics.:)

:mad0030:

She's definately prettier, especially on a bed of wild smoke. :fighting0030:

Yes, ballistics are very similar.

This particular gun for the 7-300 Wby Mag was built by an accuracy zealot when the stw was still a rare wildcat. It has incredible repeatable accuracy, range, punch, speed, and personal history.... :happy0180:

[densa44]

My grandfather was a 5 shot (actually one) per year guy. I hnever heard of any family members practicing with their rifles. Iron sights and a box of shells. He shot a 32 special, and got a moose every year in New Brunswick.

Bush craft was his specialty although I don't think he knew that. Into his 80's the process was repeated year after year. He would sit on a stump next to a very old apple orchard (only he and the moose could tell it was ever an orchard). and call the moose. When I asked where he shot the moose he said behind the ear! I was young and said what if he is looking the other way?

He looked at me over his glasses and said "you just wait"!

I think with proper bullet placement the 7mm will kill anything it hits.

[catnthehat]

Jack O'Connor once stated that some people are better hunters than shooters, and some better shooters than hunters.
he figured he was a better hunter than shooter, and considered Warren Page
( One of the people responsible for the 7MMrem Mag) a very good mix of both.

It is interesting to read some of the magazine articles these two put out over the years, especially Page's musings on the various belted magnums he used.
Cat

[nemo]

I agree with everyone regarding 7mm being lots of gun at any range, but I did have this situation with a whitetail buck. I was shooting a Norma 170 gr Vulkan @ 120 yards and it smashed his shoulder but went down through an artery, bled like a pig, found him, but he had to bleed out without hitting any vitals. Since then I refuse to take the shot that's quartering towards me.

[-JR-]

I have used many bullets also and find bullets just zipping threw the animal.
Just switched to a round nose. much better now at close range

[elkhunter11]

I have used many bullets also and find bullets just zipping threw the animal.
Just switched to a round nose. much better now at close range


Very few people complain about the lack of expansion with the 7mmremmag, and most of those people use heavy bullets on smaller game. I find that the 140gr Ballistic Tip ,or the 140gr Accubond expand even more rapidly than a round nose, yet they offer a much higher B.C. that makes for a much flatter trajectory, and much less wind drift at longer distances. The 140gr TTSX also expands well, and offers great penetration on larger game like moose or elk.

[cody j]

Shot a moose last week with my 7mm at 40 yds, he couldn't be any deader.

[Big Daddy Badger]

It is simple physics, and physicists have tested it extensively and have come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter in real world application. Making it an old wives tale.



I hate to call you on that David, but I highly doubt it, it isn't likely, and prove it. They would be more inclined to use the .308, or .300 Win Mag that the other agencies use, and for good reason.

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot40_5.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/woods_rifles.htm

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_7_47/ai_75287329/

It's simple physics and a matter of how durable the bullet is... like I said to begin with.

[nof60]

Jack O'Connor once stated that some people are better hunters than shooters, and some better shooters than hunters.
he figured he was a better hunter than shooter, and considered Warren Page
( One of the people responsible for the 7MMrem Mag) a very good mix of both.

It is interesting to read some of the magazine articles these two put out over the years, especially Page's musings on the various belted magnums he used.
Cat

I am currently sitting within 20 miles of one of O'Conners dall sheep "kills" and it is local legend that ol Jack used to like to sit in camp (especially in his later years) and dream up hunting stories while getting absolutely soused while his guides went out and shot the game. They would then drag ol Jack up for picture time. Not sure if its true as I was not there but up here it is a pretty common story. Doesnt make him any less in my eyes cause I really love his writing and have managed to collect all his books, many 1rst edirtions.

Great writer. He would even include supply lists. You can almost see someone in new york reading the stories and planning a hunt he knew he would never go on. But his life was definately richer thanks to Mr. O'Connor.

Another story I read was that at a conference in the hospitality room O'Connor and Elmer Keith were shouting at each other so loud everyone cleared the room as they were both of course armed. A youg writer however stayed behind and discovered they were not mad..... just deaf.

[Pathfinder76]

I am currently sitting within 20 miles of one of O'Conners dall sheep "kills" and it is local legend that ol Jack used to like to sit in camp (especially in his later years) and dream up hunting stories while getting absolutely soused while his guides went out and shot the game. They would then drag ol Jack up for picture time.

If that is truly the case then I'd say the guides weren't much for hunters. Anyone who has followed Jack O'Connor can see the declining trophy quality in his "later years". I assumed it was because he had a harder time getting out and up the mountains like he wanted.

I think allot of guides and outfitters are legends in their own minds and just as prone to the bottle as anyone. Read "Obsessed" by Soudy Golabchi sometime. He has a hard time saying anything good about any outfitter in North America. Canada especially.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Back to the 7mm discussion.

A few years ago my Dad had a bull moose draw and hunted pretty hard to find one. When he did come accross a shooter he was standing in a thick aspen stand in some rolling hills, the shot was down hill to the top of a knoll with other rolling hills and bowls behind behind.....there was a sizeable tree covering the vitals and the shot was 200 yrds+.....if the moose turned and took one step over he would be gone, Dad lined up square for the center of the tree and let it go.....the bullet went through the tree and into the moose, the moose piled up not 20 yards away. When cutting we found the bullet lodged in the off side shoulder. He was shooting a handloaded 160gr Sierra Game King from his Sako 7mm Rem Mag. The entrance hole was larger than normal due to the first expansion from hitting the tree.....I wouldn't recommend taking this shot personally.....but it worked.

LC