Poll: Bow River Cutthroat

[BeeGuy]

Well, in the Cochrane thread someone suggested the pic I posted was a cutbow, not a cutthroat despite the orange slash on the mandible.

This kinda intrigued me because I wasn't really aware that there might be "cutbow's" in the Bow, or what a cutbow is exactly. I know it's self explanatory, but how would they come to be. Keep in mind, one definition of species requires reproductive isolation.

There are so many disputes with regards to the taxonomy of cutthroat, and the concept of subspecies in general that I thought it would be good to get some feedback from the general population of long time Bow R. fishers, and possibly whichever fisheries biologists are lurking in our depths (fish analogy!).

So, check out the pic and cast your ballot. Keep in mind that although the picture does not show it, the fish had a distinct orange slash typical of cutties.

Feel free to lend your knowledge on cutbows which may not occur in the Bow River.

EDIT: Added a pic of another ~19" Bow River Rainbow for comparison.

[Dust1n]

i dont see any evadence its a cuthroat trout or a cutbow itself...
Looks like a typical pure rainbow on the bow

[jacenbeers]

I agree. I think it looks like a rainbow.

[TyreeUM]

I catch stocked rainbows all the time in Saskatchewan that have cut slashes.

[BeeGuy]

I catch stocked rainbows all the time in Saskatchewan that have cut slashes.

Interesting. Any idea where the genetics are coming from?

[TyreeUM]

who knows for sure, hatchery mixup back in the day I guess. They look 100% rainbow except for the slash.

[Dust1n]

cutbow???
http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=cutbow+trout&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&sa=N&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4ADSA_enCA361CA361&biw=853&bih=575&tbm=isch&tbnid=-xPr7DmtIG4IPM:&imgrefurl=http://www.coloradotrouthunters.com/troutpictures3.html&docid=4Osi93yksjUNjM&w=500&h=357&ei=L7-PTvCiDMP10gHzuoUe&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=522&vpy=240&dur=1426&hovh=190&hovw=266&tx=183&ty=159&page=2&tbnh=161&tbnw=191&start=12&ndsp=6&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:12

[TyreeUM]

cutbow???


Sure if you want to call them that, but the fish I am talking about are more like 99% rainbow and just happen to express slashes from a tiny amount of cut genetics. For example, I will fish a stocked lake and catch a bunch of freshly stocked rainbows and some of them will have slashes, most will not. I typically think of cutbows as having a large amount of both cut and rainbow genetics...

[Dust1n]

Sure if you want to call them that, but the fish I am talking about are more like 99% rainbow and just happen to express slashes from a tiny amount of cut genetics. For example, I will fish a stocked lake and catch a bunch of freshly stocked rainbows and some of them will have slashes, most will not. I typically think of cutbows as having a large amount of both cut and rainbow genetics...

in creeks youll find the amount of cut varies in the hybrids. lots of cutties will look 99% strain others 50-50 and lots look just like rainbows but with a slash.
i think theres a humblefisherman video where he mentions it....just got to find it

[Ronbill]

All of the cuttbows I've seen look mostly like rainbows on the sides with subtle yet definitely identifiable slash similar to the cutts.

[Tezma]

Mamm thats a rainbow, Domn't kid your self.

[BeeGuy]

Mamm thats a rainbow, Domn't kid your self.

Hey, who you calling Mamm?

[Tezma]

Hey, who you calling Mamm?

I ment MAN and Don't...

I was drunk lol.

[Sundancefisher]

It was not uncommon when doing species identifications of bull/brook hybrids that sometimes hybrids are so hard to tell apart from purebreds that only genetic analysis works.

Sometimes patterning would show up after death...making identification even more confusing.

I always wondered...if you killed a hybrid bull brookie in Alberta...would you be guilty of killing a bull?

As there are still lots of cutts and rainbows upstream of Calgary...any "rainbow" could have some cutt genetics. Hence studies are being conducted to find pure strain westslopes cutthroats for genetic protection.

I wonder how much yellowstone cutthroat genes are in the upper bow versus west slopes genes?

Cheers

Sun

[BeeGuy]

I'm wondering the same thing.

[Daceminnow]

bow river fish that was caught a few weeks ago. first one i've caught in the bow in the two seasons i've fished it. sure had some extra color under his throat. i called it a cutbow, and so did a fishing buddy that caught the same fish a couple days before i did. messed up mouth, same run.

Dace

http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd450/daceminnow/IMG_2518-1.jpg
http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd450/daceminnow/IMG_2522-1.jpg

[Jigsaw]

I ment MAN and Don't...

I was drunk lol.


And meant...

[BeeGuy]

And meant...

He ment what he said, mamm.

[BeeGuy]

bow river fish that was caught a few weeks ago. first one i've caught in the bow in the two seasons i've fished it. sure had some extra color under his throat. i called it a cutbow, and so did a fishing buddy that caught the same fish a couple days before i did. messed up mouth, same run.

Dace



Generally, what section of the river was the fish taken in?

[Eddy62]

Generally, what section of the river was the fish taken in?

i no theres cuttbows in the lower bow as myself and my brother were on a guided trip yesterday with mike robertson and my brother caught one.if you want to see pic www.bowriverblog.com as mike was saying hes putting pics off are fish up on web page today.....

[bowriverblog]

The first image of the two images you attached is a Cutbow but would need to see fish close up. We were out yesterday and my client Larry caught a very nice sized Cutbow on the float from Police To Mac. Quite rare to see a Cutbow in the Lower Bow but it does happen. Cutties are common in both the Elbow and the Highwood Rivers as are rainbows. I will try and post some pictures of the fish here soon. Happy fishing everyone !!!!

[Speckle55]

Here is some Cutthroat pictures .. i voted Rainbow40705

40706

40707

40708

40709

[fishinggeek]

Any Rainbow with orange cutts down the underjaw like this one obviously has some cutty in them. So if it did have, it would be a cutbow. http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l23/fishinggeek/cutbow037.jpg

[Heavy K]

Discussing this amongst fishing buds, given that morphological features are unreliable for guessing the content of Cutthroat vs Rainbow genetic makeup, we've decided that when in doubt:

If it comes out of the water three times and runs you into your backing, it's a Cuttbow that's mostly a Rainbow.

If it kinda swims around and is relatively easy to land, it's Cuttbow with lot's of Cuttie.

Where mixing is prevalent, the distinction is purely behavioural! Great fish either way.

kp

[BobLoblaw]

I kinda find it odd that nearly 75% of respondents think that it's a rainbow.
Are y'all just looking at the pic & going off that?
The pic doesn't show the orange slashes, but Beeguy says they were present.
I don't know nuttin' from nuttin', but that tells me there's some cutthroat mixed in the family tree, somewhere...
Here's a fish I caught on the Bow last year, right in Calgary; looks like a cuttbow to me...:)

http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/8071/p4010920.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/541/p4010920.jpg/)

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/5797/p4010918.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/717/p4010918.jpg/)

[BeeGuy]

I kinda find it odd that nearly 75% of respondents think that it's a rainbow.
Are y'all just looking at the pic & going off that?
The pic doesn't show the orange slashes, but Beeguy says they were present.
I don't know nuttin' from nuttin', but that tells me there's some cutthroat mixed in the family tree, somewhere...
Here's a fish I caught on the Bow last year, right in Calgary; looks like a cutbow to me.

Those are the same markings that are obscured in posted fish.

[Blake]

I've talked to Dave Blair at fishtales flyshop here, and while I don't remember the conversation verbatim I'm sure he mentioned there was a strain of cutties in the bow before the bows and browns were introduced, and cutbows, albeit more and more diluted, come out of the bow quite often.

[fishpro]

[QUOTE=BeeGuy;1108635]Keep in mind, one definition of species requires reproductive isolation.
[QUOTE]

I've asked about this before and was told that Cutts and Rainbows are an exception to this rule. I've also heard that Cutts and Rainbows are just subspecies of the same species. There's some sort of exception here for sure.

[BeeGuy]

[QUOTE=BeeGuy;1108635]Keep in mind, one definition of species requires reproductive isolation.
[QUOTE]

I've asked about this before and was told that Cutts and Rainbows are an exception to this rule. I've also heard that Cutts and Rainbows are just subspecies of the same species. There's some sort of exception here for sure.

To my knowledge, the Cutthroat trout is recognized as a unique species.

Oncorhynchus clarkii.

There are about a dozen "recognized" subspecies of Cutthroat trout. Whether these descriptions are published I do not know.

I expect this scenario has been examined using molecular data. I'll see what I can find.

A phylogeny of O.mykiss and O.clarkii would be very cool if it included numerous populations.

[BeeGuy]

COSEWIC report on the status of the Westslope Cutthroat in Alberta (http://web.unbc.ca/~costel0/Publications/sr_oncorhynchus_clarkii_lewisi_e.pdf)

Some very good info in here.

Does not address the issue directly but has a lot of general info on cutties and specifics on the WCT.

[BeeGuy]

This report does have a very simple phylogeny (Fig 1.) which also includes chromosome numbers for the diploid (2n) condition.

So, if anyone wants to Karyotype their cutbow; 59-63 chromosomes would indicate a Rainbow trout, and 64 chromosomes + would indicate a cutthroat trout.

Cutthroat lineages can be differentiated by chromosome number: Coastal cutties - 68, WCT - 66, and Yellowstone/LaHontan - 64.

I am not aware of the variability within these groups, nor aware of any published counts for hybrids.

[BeeGuy]

A single reliable morphological character exists for identifying pure strain cutthroats.

"A series of small basi-branchial teeth at the back of the throat are considered to be diagnostic of pure cutthroat trout through much of their range."

Would love to see a picture of these.

[BeeGuy]

Here's the diagram of basi-branchial teeth in a salmonid

[Tezma]

Easy Cowboy BeeGuy.

Brain OVER LOAD, *MELT DOWN*

[BeeGuy]

If anyone has this publication or can find it, I would love to see it.

R.L & L. Environmental Services LTD. 1998. Inventory of fish and fish habitat in the Bow River between Ghost Dam and Bearspaw Reservoir. Submitted to the Government of Alberta, Fish and Wildlife Division.



Cheers

[Daceminnow]

Bump for the Bee Boy.

re-read maybe one more time what you've already learned from this thread/poll to help with you answer the same questions asked on your other thread/poll. i'm still thinkin cutbows.


Dace

[BeeGuy]

Thanks, ya, I agree.

The next option is to harvest a rather cuttie looking fish under 35cm and dissect it for those basi-branchial teeth.

An assistant and some manhandling might get a decent image of a larger ones throat, but I'd rather not.

The final answer of course is a micro-sat analysis which would cost a couple hundred bucks.

I suspect this is why that report (which I still don't have and am paraphrasing the Cosewic summary) didn't find any cutties. They didn't do any genetic analysis which is apparently the only real test.

Anyways, I find it very interesting,

Cheers