YaHa Tinda

[BIGBULLS]

Has anyone heard how the Elk hunting was this past fall out at the YaHa Tinda? Its been a frustrating decade watching the herd diminish. I hope they are on the come back soon!!

[Don K]

Between the wolves and the indians it's gone to hell...

[sharpstick]

Was out there in Sept and again end of Oct. Very sad to see that there is not that many elk out there. Never saw a legal bull in the 2 weeks we hunted out there. Lots of wolves and grizz though... Don't think I'll be wasting my high priority elk tag for that zone...

[MountainTi]

Between the wolves and the indians it's gone to hell...

You could also add to that the trapping and relocating of the elk, they need to make room for those buffalo in the park you know.

[thumper]

" You could also add to that the trapping and relocating of the elk, they need to make room for those buffalo in the park you know "

- is this your opinion, or a matter of fact?

[slough shark]

have they been trapping those elk lately I thought they had stopped? why don't they start trapping the suffield elk if they want to take elk out of an overpopulated area to replenish other areas?

[Nikanit]

Actually there are elk, we seen the herds with bulls, but they have moved to a different area with less pressure. They are being discouraged to hang out on the Parks Canada ranch. I read a biologists report on it and we think he's right, the elk have mostly moved, we know where they are now after MUCH footwork and driving, and we'll be in that spot next fall. I've honestly never seen a native bro of mine out there once, and my hubbie Kerry and I covered a hell of a lot of ground.

[Grizzly Adams]

Think there were probably close to a dozen bulls killed. Archery guys got 7. My question is how many they lost? Know one guy who lost an archery bull, went back and rifle killed another, that he allowed to spoil. :mad2: Buddy of a friend bagged one with a unique 3 beam set of antlers. Hoping to take a crack at wolves there, this weekend.

Grizz

[rhuntley12]

If the wolves are that bad wish they would just open up wolves year round for that area...Hoping to do some riding there this summer and if they are as prevalant as I keep hearing...

[remmy300]

I've honestly never seen a native bro of mine out there once, and my hubbie Kerry and I covered a hell of a lot of ground.

A few years ago I took some footage of some natives firing 25 plus shots into A big heard crossing between the campground and ranch buildings. Shooting right of the road, that happens to be the center of the wildlife corridor. I walked with my camera recording down by my side. I have all of their faces, some names and license plates off the 3 trucks. They killed 3 right off the road and wounded 10 plus more that headed across the river. A buddy and I followed the blood trails up to the banks. Anyways I called f&w told them what I seen and took footage of. They wanted the tape. I sent it in and followed up a month or two later and they said they didn't have enough conclusive evidence to press charges. What more did they need.

It's not during open season that the natives take their toll. It's early to mid August, and then into January-march where I've witnessed multiple deer and moose being shot off the roads west of Sundre.

If they want their traditional rights, so be it, then do it with their traditional Bow.

To get back To the lack of elk, it's more than just natives. The trapping of elk and the large wolf population play a much larger part. Just my .02.

[huntin]

If the wolves are that bad wish they would just open up wolves year round for that area...Hoping to do some riding there this summer and if they are as prevalant as I keep hearing...

wolves are open year round in alberta

[walking buffalo]

wolves are open year round in alberta

No, they are not.

See the regs, page 61 and 32.

[huntin]

No, they are not.

See the regs, page 61 and 32.

sorry they are only open in any big game season

[sjemac]

they are in my scope / but sorry they are only open in any big game season

Still wrong. They are open from the beginning of any big game season in a particular WMU until May 31 or June 15 depending on the black bear season in that WMU. So in 318 they are open from Sept 1 to May 31 and in 344 they are open from Aug 25 to June 15.

[MountainTi]

" You could also add to that the trapping and relocating of the elk, they need to make room for those buffalo in the park you know "

- is this your opinion, or a matter of fact?
:thinking-017: Do some research........

[remmy300]

:thinking-017: Do some research........

TI you are bang on on. Where do people think the suffield elk come from? Elk were also transported north of GP. Our neighbor ran multiple loads throughout Alberta. All of those lead cows taken to strange ground, totally screwing up the migration from the park to the ranch. Those huge migrations across the dog ribs just don't happen anymore.

Anyone in doubt, take a walk around, the elk traps are still there.

[thumper]

:thinking-017: Do some research........

As a matter of fact, I was an active member of the Banff bison reintroduction group, and am still somewhat plugged in. I've never heard of 'trapping YaHa Tinda elk to make room for bison'.
Sounds like sheer fabrication to me, but I'll check it out.

[BIGBULLS]

Thanks for the updates all!!
I've heard lots of stories about what is going on in the area, however until something is done with the predator (Wolf and Grizzly) issue it sounds like it will never recover. I talked to a biologist in 2006 that figured the predation on calves was close to 100%. Won't take many years of that to wipe out herds - like it has. Although very frustrating - I don't think natives are the issue. We used to see similar situations - as mentioned above - all the time in the spring when the cows were heavy with calf. The numbers remained strong until the predators moved in. The wolves were always there but not near in the numbers there are now. Also - interestingly - anybody else notice the absolutely astronomical increase in grizzlies since the hunting closure? We used to see very few grizzlies in that country. Now they are a bloody hazard!! No more fear of humans.

Its been 11 years since we hunted out there and really miss it. Very sad to see what has happened - not just at the YaHa but the Panther/Dormer/Dogrib/Ribbon as well. I used to literally live in that country hunting and picture taking through the 80's and 90's. I took my first elk and ram out there. There are very few places in Alberta that is as beautiful and held numbers you used to see. My uncle has a picture that was put together from 3 seperate pictures - you can not count all of the elk out in the flats below the buildings. I guess our priority will be better spent elsewhere.

[Morbius131]

Think there were probably close to a dozen bulls killed. Archery guys got 7. My question is how many they lost? Know one guy who lost an archery bull, went back and rifle killed another, that he allowed to spoil. :mad2: Buddy of a friend bagged one with a unique 3 beam set of antlers. Hoping to take a crack at wolves there, this weekend.

Grizz

I for one would like to see a picture of the unique 3 beam! From what I have heard that the Tinda isn't even close to what it used to be for various reasons which is really sad!

Confused by the comment "my questions is how many they lost?" (refering to archers) I don't think you are insinuating that archers lose more game than rifle hunters as that simply isn't reality but it is definitely a shame when any big game animal is lost! Do you know of several animals that were "lost" in the area?

Morb

[steve]

You could also add to that the trapping and relocating of the elk, they need to make room for those buffalo in the park you know.


This a true story?

[ruttnbuckcojack]

Think there were probably close to a dozen bulls killed. Archery guys got 7. My question is how many they lost? Know one guy who lost an archery bull, went back and rifle killed another, that he allowed to spoil. :mad2: Buddy of a friend bagged one with a unique 3 beam set of antlers. Hoping to take a crack at wolves there, this weekend.

Grizz

I've been told from a very reliable source that there was 13 elk shot and left out there, and this person(s) say that if those imigrants and wolves and bears arent stopped there will be no elk, not trying to offend anyone just saying it was a better place before calgary over ran it, oh who am I kinding:fighting0030:

[slough shark]

TI you are bang on on. Where do people think the suffield elk come from? Elk were also transported north of GP. Our neighbor ran multiple loads throughout Alberta. All of those lead cows taken to strange ground, totally screwing up the migration from the park to the ranch. Those huge migrations across the dog ribs just don't happen anymore.

Anyone in doubt, take a walk around, the elk traps are still there.

I know they transfered elk from ya-ha a number of years ago 15 years or so if memory serves me correctly back when the numbers were high. Does anybody know if they are still migrating? all I know that I haven't seen a pile like i did as recently as 7-8 years ago. From what I can see the numbers simply aren't there anymore, and the wolves are... If a pack or 2 were to be taken out or severly diminished I suspect within a short period of time.

[Nikanit]

A few years ago I took some footage of some natives firing 25 plus shots into A big heard crossing between the campground and ranch buildings. Shooting right of the road, that happens to be the center of the wildlife corridor. I walked with my camera recording down by my side. I have all of their faces, some names and license plates off the 3 trucks. They killed 3 right off the road and wounded 10 plus more that headed across the river. A buddy and I followed the blood trails up to the banks. Anyways I called f&w told them what I seen and took footage of. They wanted the tape. I sent it in and followed up a month or two later and they said they didn't have enough conclusive evidence to press charges. What more did they need.

It's not during open season that the natives take their toll. It's early to mid August, and then into January-march where I've witnessed multiple deer and moose being shot off the roads west of Sundre.

If they want their traditional rights, so be it, then do it with their traditional Bow.

To get back To the lack of elk, it's more than just natives. The trapping of elk and the large wolf population play a much larger part. Just my .02.

That's really too bad there. I'm metis so believe me, I sometimes shake my head. At least all my native friends are not like that, and if I was there, i would have talked to them about it...it's too bad because in BC, even though they don't need a license, they still have to follow regulations.

[Alberta Bigbore]

If they want their traditional rights, so be it, then do it with their 140grain Accubonds


fixed it for you lol:sHa_shakeshout::bad_boys_20:

[rielbowhunter]

Fist of all, don't paint all Indians with the same brush. Most Indians (85%) don't even hunt. These BS stories of reefer trucks, is just that, BS. I would love to see a picture of this, just once. Posted it on here if anyone has one.
Now I do know there is good and bad hunters in all races. But they do have the right to hunt, and some love it just as much as you do! and that's why they asked for it in their treaties.
If they break any law's charge them , and I am sure F&W would. But Please don't preach your hate on here.

[walking buffalo]

I know they transfered elk from ya-ha a number of years ago 15 years or so if memory serves me correctly back when the numbers were high. Does anybody know if they are still migrating? all I know that I haven't seen a pile like i did as recently as 7-8 years ago. From what I can see the numbers simply aren't there anymore, and the wolves are... If a pack or 2 were to be taken out or severly diminished I suspect within a short period of time.


According to a 2006 study, the migrating herd was wiped out, likely by wolves.

Grizzly and others interested in getting a wolf. Check out the study, some good wolf location maps are included. :)

http://www.carnivoreconservation.org/files/thesis/hebblewhite_2006_phd.pdf

[MountainTi]

I know they transfered elk from ya-ha a number of years ago 15 years or so if memory serves me correctly back when the numbers were high. Does anybody know if they are still migrating? all I know that I haven't seen a pile like i did as recently as 7-8 years ago. From what I can see the numbers simply aren't there anymore, and the wolves are... If a pack or 2 were to be taken out or severly diminished I suspect within a short period of time.

As was mentioned above, whenever a capture went on, the lead cows were the ones to get caught and removed first. Once the lead cows are gone.........you can probably figure out the rest from there.

[remmy300]

Fist of all, don't paint all Indians with the same brush. Most Indians (85%) don't even hunt. These BS stories of reefer trucks, is just that, BS. I would love to see a picture of this, just once. Posted it on here if anyone has one.
Now I do know there is good and bad hunters in all races. But they do have the right to hunt, and some love it just as much as you do! and that's why they asked for it in their treaties.
If they break any law's charge them , and I am sure F&W would. But Please don't preach your hate on here.

I agree riel, it's not the race that makes a person a good/bad, ethical/unethical hunter.

As far as the refer trucks, that's not bs. That group set up camp on deer flats prior to hunting season for 4-5 years in a row.

[rielbowhunter]

Just to add a little history about who hunted there along time ago and the animals were abundant for 9400 years. It might have more to do with the hunters that have came along in the last 100 years. Only 3% of the canadains are first nations. And less than 20 % of them hunt.
"Archaeological evidence indicates that the area has been used by aboriginal people for over 9,400 years. Many camps, tipi rings and artifacts have been found. Remains of pre-historic bison have been found here as well. The Red Deer River may have been a major trading route since more camps exist west along the river towards the continental divide. Ya Ha Tinda means 'Mountain Prairie' in Stoney."
You can read more here, http://www.pc.gc.ca/pn-np/ab/banff/activ/activ35.aspx
I think it's fair to say that Canada's natural resources haven't been depleted by the the Native populations and that the myth of the Reefer truck is just that- a myth to perpetuate stereotypes and draw attention away from real and important issues that threatens our wildlife.


"

[remmy300]

Just to add a little history about who hunted there along time ago and the animals were abundant for 9400 years. It might have more to do with the hunters that have came along in the last 100 years. Only 3% of the canadains are first nations. And less than 20 % of them hunt.
"Archaeological evidence indicates that the area has been used by aboriginal people for over 9,400 years. Many camps, tipi rings and artifacts have been found. Remains of pre-historic bison have been found here as well. The Red Deer River may have been a major trading route since more camps exist west along the river towards the continental divide. Ya Ha Tinda means 'Mountain Prairie' in Stoney."
You can read more here, http://www.pc.gc.ca/pn-np/ab/banff/activ/activ35.aspx
I think it's fair to say that Canada's natural resources haven't been depleted by the the Native populations and that the myth of the Reefer truck is just that- a myth to perpetuate stereotypes and draw attention away from real and important issues that threatens our wildlife.


"

Thanks for the history lesson! I'm quite aware of what yaha tinda means. I have spent a lot of my near 40 years hiking, camping, fishing and hunting there.

I grew up in Sundre, i have seen the reefer trucks in certain areas year after year. I have guaranteed spent more time than most in the area west of Sundre. Im not saying that is The first nations that are the root of the issues at all. I believe it's a poor management issue, and predator issue. Don't tell me it's a myth. It's been around 3 to 4 years since I last seen a reefer truck.

Thanks again for the grade 9 history lesson.

[rielbowhunter]

Sorry Remmy! But I didn't post it just for you.

[slough shark]

hmmm so the migrating herd is gone, seemingly due to as said above the lead cows being transplanted up north or out east, and the wolves taking out the rest. I'm no biologist or elk migration expert but if the populations were to recover would they start migrating again? or is it one of those things that once it's gone it's gone? With F&W hopefully doing some hunting for the wolves I sure hope that this area is on the list for wolf clearing as it is has the potential to be one of the regions in the province capable of holding significant elk populations. If nothing is done I wonder if we will see will see a return of some of the suffield elk to the ya-ha, or perhaps we will start to see significant migration of the suffield elk one day as they may need to move for feed and cover reasons eventually if the population there continues to increase like it has been.

[Don K]

Well since my replies and thoughts keep getting pulled I'll word it differently...:thinking-006:

There are 'groups' that take advantage of their 'rights' and harvest more than they can use. They also have a blatant disregard for the preservation and conservation of our resource. I've seen it first hand, videoed it and collected it. I've been interviewed by FW regarding these incidents when we've reported, and I've watched nothing done... It's very disheartening... I get very worked up when talking about it, because I disagree with it wholeheartedly.

I've seen herds shot at, wounded and left... Cow moose shot in spring with fetus in gut pile... Deer left at camps with only hind quarters, back straps and loins removed... All out of what we consider season...

How am I supposed to feel? Not warm and fuzzy that's for sure.

I hope this doesn't offend anyone...

[Don K]

Man I feel like a liberal...
:sign0068:

[steve]

Couple dead horses full of strychnine...

[calgarychef]

Grizz, regarding your mention of bowhunters. The same could be said for rifle hunters...I wonder how many animals are lost. When bowhunting and you lose an animal you know it happened, lots of animals are shot and lost at long enough distances with rifles that the shooter doesn't even know it happened.

[Don K]

Grizz, regarding your mention of bowhunters. The same could be said for rifle hunters...I wonder how many animals are lost. When bowhunting and you lose an animal you know it happened, lots of animals are shot and lost at long enough distances with rifles that the shooter doesn't even know it happened.

X2... have seen a lot of blood during rifle season, and I guarantee there's more animals found and left during rifle season. Sad but true reality...

[Dan Boone]

I think the reefer moved to 358 in the saddle/white hills.
Local farmer told me the reason the elk/deer/moose were so scarce in that area this year was due to our original residents setting up camp in that area for 2 weeks in august.

I was blaming it on the wolves/grizzlies.
But guess the 3 of them maybe partially to blame.
Along with way too many deer tags.

[Grizzly Adams]

Grizz, regarding your mention of bowhunters. The same could be said for rifle hunters...I wonder how many animals are lost. When bowhunting and you lose an animal you know it happened, lots of animals are shot and lost at long enough distances with rifles that the shooter doesn't even know it happened.

You're right, didn't mean to raise the bow hunters hackles, :D just the two bull guy ****ed me off royally, especially since I gave him some hints, where to go. Saw a couple of pictures of the three beam bull, but they were not suitable for reproduction and there seems to be a reluctance to get me one. When I do and I intend to, if possible, I will post it. Legal 6 point bull, with another beam or point, call it what you will, that starts near the base of one of the main beams and grows straight up, like a spiker's, for about two feet.

[bushwackin]

Well since my replies and thoughts keep getting pulled I'll word it differently...:thinking-006:

There are 'groups' that take advantage of their 'rights' and harvest more than they can use. They also have a blatant disregard for the preservation and conservation of our resource. I've seen it first hand, videoed it and collected it. I've been interviewed by FW regarding these incidents when we've reported, and I've watched nothing done... It's very disheartening... I get very worked up when talking about it, because I disagree with it wholeheartedly.

I've seen herds shot at, wounded and left... Cow moose shot in spring with fetus in gut pile... Deer left at camps with only hind quarters, back straps and loins removed... All out of what we consider season...

How am I supposed to feel? Not warm and fuzzy that's for sure.

I hope this doesn't offend anyone...

Yah there sure are some bleeding hearts on this forum. Well a bleeding heart society we live in. I've seen it dozens of times in bow season out in 308 where I would find carcasses of moose and deer with only the hind quarters removed. Safe to assume it was "Them" when they had a camp set up just up the road and I would see truck loads of "Them" cruising up and down the road all day long. Not to mention all the moose we would find dead with bullet holes in them that ran out of sight too far for "Them" to retrieve. Then about 5 years ago, my girlfriend and I were out hiking in June west of Longview up Grassy Pass and were attacked by a drunk group of "Them" in the parking lot at the Mt Sentinal day use area. 6 of "Them" tried to steal my girlfriends car in that parking lot while we were hiking. When they figured out they couldn't start it they proceded to smash it to smithereens. It was a one month old Toyota Matrix. When we bumped into them and caught them red handed they came at us with clubs and knives. I dragged my girlfriend into the bush as fast as I could (she wanted to fight them!) with them hot on our heels. I slowed "Them" down with just pointing my bear spray at them, I didn't use it and will regret not using it forever. Even the cops afterwards asked me why I didn't spray them! So we continued into the bush and a minute later heard a gun being fired into the bush behind us! We got high enough up the hill then sidehilled west for about half a mile where we found a little clearing in the bush. We looked down toward the highway and could see them now with 2 trucks cruising up and down the highway looking for us! We kept going and finally dropped back down to the highway when it was safe and almost dark. A motorhome came along and I jumped in front of it waving my arms. The 3 swiss guys in it were scared of me at first but we finally convinced them of the story as quick as we could. They gave us a ride to the highwood house where we called the cops on the payphone. The cops showed up in about an hour and told us they found them at the Green Ford campground down the road adjacent to Eden Valley. "They" tried to drive their stolen truck across the Highwood river when they saw the cops and sewered it. Then they jumped out and retreated into the reserve and escaped. The other guy that was parked at the same parking lot as us and had his car destroyed too was very lucky. He was down the Highwood fishing with his young son and returned to see "Them" wrecking his car too. He told us later that they were almost spotted by the natives (OK, I'll say that word now) when they returned to the parking lot. He had nothing to defend themselves. So a few months later we called the cops to follow up. The cop told us they knew which natives were responsable but didn't have enough evidence to press charges. My girlfriend still has nightmares about it. I guess I went off on a major tangent here on the thread about the YaHa Tinda but some of the comments I read got me going I guess and thought I should share my story. So try to forgive me but I have a very tainted attitude towards these people. Yes I know, a few bad ones give the rest a bad name. Anyways, I'm done.
Please don't delete this story moderators.

[Don K]

I agree about the few who paint a bad picture. Yet I haven't ran into many who paint a good picture?
In the case Remmy was alluding to, we had video, names, liscense plate numbers and shell casings? How does this stuff happen and how is it ok?
I'm not being racist, I'm being a realist.

I ran into one native hunter up north of Shell Lake in Saskatchewan a few years ago. He was a good hunter. We saw a big whitey the night before standing in the road about 1/2 hr after light. Had to basically nudge him with truck to get him to move, lol. He was all of 190, and had double drops... The next morning we met this fellow, he parked his truck, was walking in with his rattling horns to try and get this deer. He explained he was going to try and get this animal for food and for $$. One of the other band chiefs had a 'bounty' out for deer over 180"... Not sure how I feel about that, but he was targetting a specific animal, eating the meat, and selling the horns. We ran into him a few times, really nice guy. He was not shooting up the countryside and wasn't threatening in the least. But that is my exception...

My experiences are mostly negative in regards to 'them' and it's not isolated to crown land... Again, these are my thoughts and I'm not trying to offend.
:thinking-006:

[manosteel]

The reason you don't hear about good stories about "THEM" (funny how on this forum you consider "THEM" not a party of the greater community we call Canada) is that the general demographic of people who use this site are not "THEM" and do not hunt with "THEM"! I have been hunting since I was a kid, brought up doing it and have taught my kids to hunt. I can tell you that they consider “you”, average non-"THEM" hunter, no better than Elmer fudd in real life. And from my experience in the field, unfortunately, they are not far off from that characterization for the vast majority of hunters.

I have hunted with "THEM" and with "US" (who ever that is and what ever that means) and I can tell you I preferre hunting with "THEM". But alias this is the internet where even white supremacy groups host forums to spew there rhetoric as gospel. And like obtaining a medical diagnoses or legal advice, you read and believe at your own risk.

There are a lot of excellent hunters on this site, with great advice, excellent stories and who exemplify what hunters should portray to the majority of Canadians who don't hunt. These same people rarely if ever paint "THEM" with the brush that most of the users on this site do. It is also these same few forum regulars who keeping me coming back to this site despite the rest of the juvenile rhetoric.

[bushwackin]

Well it's good to hear someone has had a good experience with "THEM"!!!!!

[mulecrazy]

The reason you don't hear about good stories about "THEM" (funny how on this forum you consider "THEM" not a party of the greater community we call Canada) is that the general demographic of people who use this site are not "THEM" and do not hunt with "THEM"! I have been hunting since I was a kid, brought up doing it and have taught my kids to hunt. I can tell you that they consider “you”, average non-"THEM" hunter, no better than Elmer fudd in real life. And from my experience in the field, unfortunately, they are not far off from that characterization for the vast majority of hunters.

I have hunted with "THEM" and with "US" (who ever that is and what ever that means) and I can tell you I preferre hunting with "THEM". But alias this is the internet where even white supremacy groups host forums to spew there rhetoric as gospel. And like obtaining a medical diagnoses or legal advice, you read and believe at your own risk.

There are a lot of excellent hunters on this site, with great advice, excellent stories and who exemplify what hunters should portray to the majority of Canadians who don't hunt. These same people rarely if ever paint "THEM" with the brush that most of the users on this site do. It is also these same few forum regulars who keeping me coming back to this site despite the rest of the juvenile rhetoric.

maybe because "them" refuse to be a normal part of canada and demand special rights and advantages. when you get special treatment you get treated special. pretty simple concept.

[Don K]

maybe because "them" refuse to be a normal part of canada and demand special rights and advantages. when you get special treatment you get treated special. pretty simple concept.

Thank you! :sHa_shakeshout:

[manosteel]

Thy get so called “special” rights because they signed Treaties, pretty simple. I find it very annoying that the vast many Canadians do not know or understand Canadian history. We were allowed to settle the west not because of the military might of Canada in the 1800's but because Canada signed treaties with the First Nations people of the west to allow settlement to occur. If it wasn't for the Treaties, there would be no western provinces as we know them today. And if you think for a second that Canada could have forced settlement in the west like the Americans did, give your head a shake and read a University level history book. Any historical war prior to the 1900’s that Canada fought, most of which were internal between the French and English was conducted with the aide of First Nations. First Nations were be it French or English allies and not subjects.

Now while First Nations people will argue that the treaties were peace and friendship treaties and not actual surrender treaties, one thing that is not debatable is the fact that treaties provided for western settlement by European immigrants and in return First Nations were given many treaty promises. These Treaty promises were in part, a form of compensation, for what they were agreeing too in the treaties.

Everyday a Treaty Indian lives and breathes and non-treaties are living and enjoying the fruits of their lands, they are living up to their side of the bargain. Unfortunately, Canada has a poor record of living up to the promises they made under treaty and thus we have a specific claims department which has over 600 claims for unfulfilled Treaty rights, most of which have or will go through formal litigation.

So their so called "special rights" have been ... to put it in euro-Canadian terms been bought and paid for.... and paid for ... and paid for everyday "... as long as the sun shines ... the grass grows... and the rivers flow..."

I would hesitate to call their rights special when they are actually, since 1982, more constitutional in nature. It would be like saying the right to be free from discrimination on the bases of sex, age, or race as a special right. On second thought most people on this thread probably classify those as “special” rights…

[BIGBULLS]

Actually there are elk, we seen the herds with bulls, but they have moved to a different area with less pressure. They are being discouraged to hang out on the Parks Canada ranch. I read a biologists report on it and we think he's right, the elk have mostly moved, we know where they are now after MUCH footwork and driving, and we'll be in that spot next fall. I've honestly never seen a native bro of mine out there once, and my hubbie Kerry and I covered a hell of a lot of ground.

Nikanit - are you meaning they have moved out of 418 altogether or just off of the flats around the ranch buildings - further up the Scalp, Bighorn, Red Deer?
Thanks for your reply - I am new to this forum and am a little dissappointed in the direction the post went.

[Caleb]

I would hesitate to call their rights special when they are actually, since 1982, more constitutional in nature. It would be like saying the right to be free from discrimination on the bases of sex, age, or race as a special right. On second thought most people on this thread probably classify those as “special” rights…

Your history is correct, I don't disagree a bit. But your discussion of "rights" is racist by definition. You are justifying a system that may have been considered acceptable 100 years ago, but is no longer justifiable or helpful to either group. More human rights for some humans than other humans is wrong any way you look at it in the modern world.

Sometimes, things have to change just because it's wrong.

[mulecrazy]

Thy get so called “special” rights because they signed Treaties, pretty simple. I find it very annoying that the vast many Canadians do not know or understand Canadian history. We were allowed to settle the west not because of the military might of Canada in the 1800's but because Canada signed treaties with the First Nations people of the west to allow settlement to occur. If it wasn't for the Treaties, there would be no western provinces as we know them today. And if you think for a second that Canada could have forced settlement in the west like the Americans did, give your head a shake and read a University level history book. Any historical war prior to the 1900’s that Canada fought, most of which were internal between the French and English was conducted with the aide of First Nations. First Nations were be it French or English allies and not subjects.

Now while First Nations people will argue that the treaties were peace and friendship treaties and not actual surrender treaties, one thing that is not debatable is the fact that treaties provided for western settlement by European immigrants and in return First Nations were given many treaty promises. These Treaty promises were in part, a form of compensation, for what they were agreeing too in the treaties.

Everyday a Treaty Indian lives and breathes and non-treaties are living and enjoying the fruits of their lands, they are living up to their side of the bargain. Unfortunately, Canada has a poor record of living up to the promises they made under treaty and thus we have a specific claims department which has over 600 claims for unfulfilled Treaty rights, most of which have or will go through formal litigation.

So their so called "special rights" have been ... to put it in euro-Canadian terms been bought and paid for.... and paid for ... and paid for everyday "... as long as the sun shines ... the grass grows... and the rivers flow..."

I would hesitate to call their rights special when they are actually, since 1982, more constitutional in nature. It would be like saying the right to be free from discrimination on the bases of sex, age, or race as a special right. On second thought most people on this thread probably classify those as “special” rights…

LOL you can attempt to justify anything, if it works for you then that is fine, but what you wrote does not justify many of the things they do and get.

[manosteel]

Just a thought... if the reefer(sp?) truck situation as stated in this thread is true and this was done over numerous years, with video tape evidence no less, why hasn't F&W done anything about it? It wouldn't take a rock scientist to set up a sting if there was any illegal activity going on. I give F&W more credit than most in saying if there was something illegal about the whole situation as described they would have put a stop to it.

Hmmm ... so where dose that leave us? Maybe there is another explanation? Most people are unaware that First Nations still practice their cultural ceremonies such as Sundance’s, Potlatches, Sweats etc... Many of these ceremonies have anywhere from 200-300 attend. And many have a feast... do you think its possible that these people were gathering what was needed for a cerimonial feast, some other activity which takes several days to up to a week to conclude. Now while Canada did ban these cultural ceremonies right up until the 1970's (it makes me cringe to think we did this... imagine banning Christmas mass or church services on Easter weekend...) it is well within their rights, both treaty and constitional, to do so. And it could be that F&W did investigate and found out what was really going and saw nothing illegal, whether it was for what I suggested or for some other reason.

All I know is not enough people know or even care to know what another culture is doing and why they can do it. If you just asked “them” maybe they would have told you to go jump in the lake, like many hunters do when asked about their hunting activates, or you would have learned something that day.

Like most of you, I have no idea about the activities alleged to have gone on in this thread but like most of you I can guess and throw out conjecture. However, everyone should stop and think about what they read, maybe read between the lines, before jumping in with two feet and making further accusations based on pre-conceived notions, myths, or basis’s. Or just stop and think... not everything you read on the interweb is based on truth or historical fact :thinking-006:

[Caleb]

So their so called "special rights" have been ... to put it in euro-Canadian terms been bought and paid for.... and paid for ... and paid for everyday "... as long as the sun shines ... the grass grows... and the rivers flow..."


In euro-Canadian terms..... you can't buy "special rights".

[mulecrazy]

Just a thought... if the reefer(sp?) truck situation as stated in this thread is true and this was done over numerous years, with video tape evidence no less, why hasn't F&W done anything about it? It wouldn't take a rock scientist to set up a sting if there was any illegal activity going on. I give F&W more credit than most in saying if there was something illegal about the whole situation as described they would have put a stop to it.

Hmmm ... so where dose that leave us? Maybe there is another explanation? Most people are unaware that First Nations still practice their cultural ceremonies such as Sundance’s, Potlatches, Sweats etc... Many of these ceremonies have anywhere from 200-300 attend. And many have a feast... do you think its possible that these people were gathering what was needed for a cerimonial feast, some other activity which takes several days to up to a week to conclude. Now while Canada did ban these cultural ceremonies right up until the 1970's (it makes me cringe to think we did this... imagine banning Christmas mass or church services on Easter weekend...) it is well within their rights, both treaty and constitional, to do so. And it could be that F&W did investigate and found out what was really going and saw nothing illegal, whether it was for what I suggested or for some other reason.

All I know is not enough people know or even care to know what another culture is doing and why they can do it. If you just asked “them” maybe they would have told you to go jump in the lake, like many hunters do when asked about their hunting activates, or you would have learned something that day.

Like most of you, I have no idea about the activities alleged to have gone on in this thread but like most of you I can guess and throw out conjecture. However, everyone should stop and think about what they read, maybe read between the lines, before jumping in with two feet and making further accusations based on pre-conceived notions, myths, or basis’s. Or just stop and think... not everything you read on the interweb is based on truth or historical fact :thinking-006:

After this week, I am sure everyone in Lethbridge is well aware that natives still use sweat lodges.

[manosteel]

Your history is correct, I don't disagree a bit. But your discussion of "rights" is racist by definition. You are justifying a system that may have been considered acceptable 100 years ago, but is no longer justifiable or helpful to either group. More human rights for some humans than other humans is wrong any way you look at it in the modern world.

Sometimes, things have to change just because it's wrong.


I am sure that if what you are saying is get rid of the treaties. First Nations would agree with you. The land that we know as Alberta, Saskatchewan and parts of Manitoba would revert back to the First Nation by law. And instead of paying our natural resource royalty to Crown, it would go to the First Nations as they would assume control. There is a reason why treaties still exist and cannot unilaterally be scraped! I would not be going too far in saying that if Canada could do it they would have long ago. :budo:

[manosteel]

In euro-Canadian terms..... you can't buy "special rights".

I agree.... my point is treaty rights are not special... my gawd I feel like i am teaching in grade school

[hal53]

Just a thought... if the reefer(sp?) truck situation as stated in this thread is true and this was done over numerous years, with video tape evidence no less, why hasn't F&W done anything about it? It wouldn't take a rock scientist to set up a sting if there was any illegal activity going on. I give F&W more credit than most in saying if there was something illegal about the whole situation as described they would have put a stop to it.

Hmmm ... so where dose that leave us? Maybe there is another explanation? Most people are unaware that First Nations still practice their cultural ceremonies such as Sundance’s, Potlatches, Sweats etc... Many of these ceremonies have anywhere from 200-300 attend. And many have a feast... do you think its possible that these people were gathering what was needed for a cerimonial feast, some other activity which takes several days to up to a week to conclude. Now while Canada did ban these cultural ceremonies right up until the 1970's (it makes me cringe to think we did this... imagine banning Christmas mass or church services on Easter weekend...) it is well within their rights, both treaty and constitional, to do so. And it could be that F&W did investigate and found out what was really going and saw nothing illegal, whether it was for what I suggested or for some other reason.

All I know is not enough people know or even care to know what another culture is doing and why they can do it. If you just asked “them” maybe they would have told you to go jump in the lake, like many hunters do when asked about their hunting activates, or you would have learned something that day.

Like most of you, I have no idea about the activities alleged to have gone on in this thread but like most of you I can guess and throw out conjecture. However, everyone should stop and think about what they read, maybe read between the lines, before jumping in with two feet and making further accusations based on pre-conceived notions, myths, or basis’s. Or just stop and think... not everything you read on the interweb is based on truth or historical fact :thinking-006:
So...for these "ceremonies". they need a reefer with elk and moose quarters hung in it...in August???...and Sask. plates on the motorhomes????...and you want me to believe they are subsitence hunting???...really????

[Don K]

The reason you don't hear about good stories about "THEM" (funny how on this forum you consider "THEM" not a party of the greater community we call Canada) is that the general demographic of people who use this site are not "THEM" and do not hunt with "THEM"! I have been hunting since I was a kid, brought up doing it and have taught my kids to hunt. I can tell you that they consider “you”, average non-"THEM" hunter, no better than Elmer fudd in real life. And from my experience in the field, unfortunately, they are not far off from that characterization for the vast majority of hunters.

I have hunted with "THEM" and with "US" (who ever that is and what ever that means) and I can tell you I preferre hunting with "THEM". But alias this is the internet where even white supremacy groups host forums to spew there rhetoric as gospel. And like obtaining a medical diagnoses or legal advice, you read and believe at your own risk.

There are a lot of excellent hunters on this site, with great advice, excellent stories and who exemplify what hunters should portray to the majority of Canadians who don't hunt. These same people rarely if ever paint "THEM" with the brush that most of the users on this site do. It is also these same few forum regulars who keeping me coming back to this site despite the rest of the juvenile rhetoric.

I also hunt with 'them' lol. We have natives married into our family and they are great people. They work hard and are contributing to society everyday. I enjoy hunting with my sister in law and I must say she helps keep my brother in check. I'm not Elmer Fudd, and I'm far from a White Supremist...:snapoutofit:
My father used to build houses on the 4band reserves at Hobbema, and for the government in Fort Chip. I've known natives as friends and family my entire life. So just because I have HUGE issues with some of these 'rights' it doesn't make me a horrible, ugly person.

I honestly believe if you are white, brown, orange, yellow, black or purple, you are made of flesh and blood and should be held to the same set of rules and standards. I don't believe in special rights or privileges for ANYONE. I also think that any group that has said rights will have persons that abuse them and paint a bad picture for all.
I'm NOT the brush, I'm just looking at the canvas.
:thinking-006:

Anyone who has done some of the things that I've witnessed should lose the rights and privileges that are bestowed upon them, in my opinion. You may not agree, but as a very hardworking, charitable person, who plays by the rules with the hand I was dealt, I believe I deserve an opinion.
:)

[mulecrazy]

I am sure that if what you are saying is get rid of the treaties. First Nations would agree with you. The land that we know as Alberta, Saskatchewan and parts of Manitoba would revert back to the First Nation by law. And instead of paying our natural resource royalty to Crown, it would go to the First Nations as they would assume control. There is a reason why treaties still exist and cannot unilaterally be scraped! I would not be going too far in saying that if Canada could do it they would have long ago. :budo:

Nope, If the treaties are ripped up then they can become a regular canadian citizen and be treated exactly like the rest of us. I love how you try to tell us that we are here because they "let" us. What colour is the sky in your world? The treaties were a peaceful way of preventing a hostile takeover. If you think for a second that the natives could have prevented any sort of settlement you are dillusional. One way or another the white man was taking over.

[mulecrazy]

Besides, who gives a rip what happened over a 100 years ago. What keeps humans above the animals is our ability to adapt. As we have evolved as a race and species we have changed as a society. Why is it that Natives are the only ones who seem to think that everything should stay the same?? EVOLVE dangit.

[Caleb]

I agree.... my point is treaty rights are not special... my gawd I feel like i am teaching in grade school

What you are talking about are not "rights". It is a privilege that is no longer justifiable in the modern world.

Things change, special rights for different races get abolished everywhere else, why not Canada?

[manosteel]

Nope, If the treaties are ripped up then they can become a regular canadian citizen and be treated exactly like the rest of us. I love how you try to tell us that we are here because they "let" us. What colour is the sky in your world? The treaties were a peaceful way of preventing a hostile takeover. If you think for a second that the natives could have prevented any sort of settlement you are dillusional. One way or another the white man was taking over.

Hahaa..... You sir win the award for historical ignorance....
Cheers:)

[mulecrazy]

Hahaa..... You sir win the award for historical ignorance....
Cheers:)

Awesome, Is it a cash award like a treaty?

[ruttnbuckcojack]

Just a thought... if the reefer(sp?) truck situation as stated in this thread is true and this was done over numerous years, with video tape evidence no less, why hasn't F&W done anything about it? It wouldn't take a rock scientist to set up a sting if there was any illegal activity going on. I give F&W more credit than most in saying if there was something illegal about the whole situation as described they would have put a stop to it.

Hmmm ... so where dose that leave us? Maybe there is another explanation? Most people are unaware that First Nations still practice their cultural ceremonies such as Sundance’s, Potlatches, Sweats etc... Many of these ceremonies have anywhere from 200-300 attend. And many have a feast... do you think its possible that these people were gathering what was needed for a cerimonial feast, some other activity which takes several days to up to a week to conclude. Now while Canada did ban these cultural ceremonies right up until the 1970's (it makes me cringe to think we did this... imagine banning Christmas mass or church services on Easter weekend...) it is well within their rights, both treaty and constitional, to do so. And it could be that F&W did investigate and found out what was really going and saw nothing illegal, whether it was for what I suggested or for some other reason.

All I know is not enough people know or even care to know what another culture is doing and why they can do it. If you just asked “them” maybe they would have told you to go jump in the lake, like many hunters do when asked about their hunting activates, or you would have learned something that day.

Like most of you, I have no idea about the activities alleged to have gone on in this thread but like most of you I can guess and throw out conjecture. However, everyone should stop and think about what they read, maybe read between the lines, before jumping in with two feet and making further accusations based on pre-conceived notions, myths, or basis’s. Or just stop and think... not everything you read on the interweb is based on truth or historical fact :thinking-006:

To all who do not understand or even know about the people who stood up against the natives and the government to get there hunting rights diminished to the same rights as every other alberta citizen, There were pics taken from concerned citizen and Public officals (F&W, RCMP) in the late 80's and early 90's. But they didnt seem to help our concern, To make this storie short My family, the others and there family's were threatned, Everone just kinda gave up, they werent gaining any ground and they were not risking there lives or there familys over something the government screwed up on. I think if you aint got the BALLS to speak up when it counts then Dont Yap your lips off to begin with:snapoutofit:

[arkas]

It baffles me how the moderators on this forum can let a thread like this get out of hand with raciest comments like this.
Sure there are natives out there who abuse the "SYSTEM" but if you dont think that every other race out there isn't doing the same thing you are also a fool.
Over and over and over there are people of all walks and races out poaching and killing when they shouldn't be. People hunting in areas where they shouldn't be, and people breaking the laws when they shouldn't be. So does that make you any better?
But to single out a complete race (NATIVES) just because of a handful of "misfits" is a disgrace.......Do you honestly think the "White man" doesn't break the laws of hunting?????
If I was a betting man, I bet there are way more poachers that are non native and I bet that poachers in general take more animals in a year than the natives (AKA "Them") ever do....
You all should be ashamed of yourselves.
There are no "Them" in canada....Canada will always be "US".

Sure there are natives who do things that are inappropriate and I feel for the people who has had bad experience with any situation that has left a bad taste in your mouth.

But what about everyone else?

Should James Roskow who killed the 4 RCMP be portrayed as the typical white person?

Does Mark Twitchell fit the profile of what every non native person is like?

What about the foster mom who killed her foster child? Do we now paint ever asian person with that brush?

What about Ken Butler who was charged with second-degree murder in the death of his brothers wife. He beat her to death with a coat rack and toilet seat......OH NOOOO, he too was "White".

OMG.... what about Travis Vader who is a major suspect for the missing McAnns, surly all non natives must be just like that, no?

The point I am trying to make is, Yes...People do things that are wrong, but does that give everyone else the right to paint the remainder of that race with the same brush, I think not.

I find this thread very sad and it perfectly shows what type of society we live in!!!!

[bushwackin]

Racist comments? Sure bud. And if there is no "Them" and Canada is all "Us" why doesn't everyone have the same rights? Give your head a shake

[Alberta Bigbore]

The treaties were a peaceful way of preventing a hostile takeover. If you think for a second that the natives could have prevented any sort of settlement you are dillusional. One way or another the white man was taking over.

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac153/mojobass/indiansquote.jpg



.

[Don K]

I agree 100% with the fact Canada should all be 'we', but it will never happen if everyone wants special treatment.
I also agree that there are lots of people at fault, but I'm speaking from what I've seen first hand, year round. Nothing more, nothing less...
:thinking-006:

[manosteel]

It baffles me how the moderators on this forum can let a thread like this get out of hand with raciest comments like this.
Sure there are natives out there who abuse the "SYSTEM" but if you dont think that every other race out there isn't doing the same thing you are also a fool.
Over and over and over there are people of all walks and races out poaching and killing when they shouldn't be. People hunting in areas where they shouldn't be, and people breaking the laws when they shouldn't be. So does that make you any better?
But to single out a complete race (NATIVES) just because of a handful of "misfits" is a disgrace.......Do you honestly think the "White man" doesn't break the laws of hunting?????
If I was a betting man, I bet there are way more poachers that are non native and I bet that poachers in general take more animals in a year than the natives (AKA "Them") ever do....
You all should be ashamed of yourselves.
There are no "Them" in canada....Canada will always be "US".

Sure there are natives who do things that are inappropriate and I feel for the people who has had bad experience with any situation that has left a bad taste in your mouth.

But what about everyone else?

Should James Roskow who killed the 4 RCMP be portrayed as the typical white person?

Does Mark Twitchell fit the profile of what every non native person is like?

What about the foster mom who killed her foster child? Do we now paint ever asian person with that brush?

What about Ken Butler who was charged with second-degree murder in the death of his brothers wife. He beat her to death with a coat rack and toilet seat......OH NOOOO, he too was "White".

OMG.... what about Travis Vader who is a major suspect for the missing McAnns, surly all non natives must be just like that, no?

The point I am trying to make is, Yes...People do things that are wrong, but does that give everyone else the right to paint the remainder of that race with the same brush, I think not.

I find this thread very sad and it perfectly shows what type of society we live in!!!!

X10000!!!!! could not have said it better myself!!!!

[manosteel]

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac153/mojobass/indiansquote.jpg



.

Sad but true.

[gunslinger]

Has anyone heard how the Elk hunting was this past fall out at the YaHa Tinda? Its been a frustrating decade watching the herd diminish. I hope they are on the come back soon!!

The elk herd in the yaha is stable as of right now, i seen hundreds of head of elk with lots of good 6 point bulls, Now i know its nowwhere near what it used to be but there was some good news to report.

I hunted sheep all through the yaha tinda , up the scalp, forbidden, burnt timber, Sheep cliffs, everywehre in there and we never seen one wolf and never heard one wolf. That was a huge bonus. I know there was alot of wolfes taken care of so hopefully the elk can continue to grow in herds. 40 days in there and not one sighting, and alot of glassing for hours.

[Don K]

I'm done talking about this. It's very frustrating. The OP asked what happened in that zone, and we responded with what we saw and reported first hand.
:thinking-006:

Where there's smoke, there's fire...
:argue2:

[BrownBear416]

Round and Round we go...

This thread is going nowhere good..

Closed