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sheephunter
12-21-2011, 10:23 AM
Considering some of the interesting discussions on here regarding ethics vs legal practice, I thought I'd post these news artcles from New Zealand. They are embroiled in a battle of ethics vs legal practice right now regarding the use of helicopters for hunting. While it's across the pond, it does give an interesting insight into the debate. Change helicopter to baiting, etc, and this could be what we have to look forward to.

Discussion on proposals to ban heli-hunting is like opening a hornet's nest. In a response to the heli-hunters' association last week defending their claim to shoot New Zealand's prized trophy Himalayan tahr and deer, business reporter Simon Hartley considers the views of Shaun Moloney, of the New Zealand Deerstalkers' Association, who vehemently opposes heli-hunting.


Millions of tourism dollars are not at risk if heli-hunting on public conservation land is banned, according to the New Zealand Deerstalkers' Association, which says the cash-strapped Department of Conservation is already missing out on millions in potential income.

The heli-hunting issue is multifaceted; questioning moral and ethical practices through to legislative interpretation, with emotive claims and counter-claims being made by the protagonists.
Himalayan tahr are at the centre of the heli-hunting debate.
United Future leader Peter Dunne has proposed an outright ban on heli-hunting by 2013, a stance which has the full support of the New Zealand Deerstalkers' Association, whose members pride themselves on the ethics of ground-based hunting excursions.

"Heli-hunting is an aerial armchair perversion of sport, literally a financial and conservation disaster that destroys the integrity of New Zealand's national parks and back-country," said Shaun Moloney, spokesman for Queenstown-based Southern Lakes branch of the New Zealand Deerstalkers' Association.

Last week Dunedin-based QC, Colin Withnall, put forward arguments on behalf of the 12 companies in the South Island Wild Animal Recovery Operators' Association, saying millions of dollars would be lost in southern tourism if heli-hunting was banned.

An independent report on heli-hunting's financial contribution is being collated for the operators' association.

In reply, the NZDA this week said it believed tourism-based hunting on private land, which hosted about 80% of those hunters, generated annual revenue of between $26 million and $28 million.

But when it came to allowing foreign hunters access to Doc land, the department was potentially missing out on fees of $5 million.

New Zealand has the only stable herd of Himalayan tahr (about 10,000) which can be hunted.

While heli-hunting may require a three-day stay, ground hunting expeditions can be up to 14 days.

Mr Moloney said hunters wanting a similar type of trophy animal to New Zealand's Himalayan tahr overseas would have to pay an equivalent fee of up to $NZ16,233.

"Heli-hunters pay only $400 dollars per tahr for an alpine trophy worth over $US12,500," he said.

Mr Moloney, also a member of the five-person NZDA heli-hunting subcommittee, said about 450 to 500 tahr trophies left New Zealand annually, with each one requiring a certificate of origin issued by Doc or Maf.

The certificate said the trophy originated in New Zealand, and without this paperwork the trophy could not be imported into the tourist hunter's home country, he said.

"New Zealand charges $40 for each of these certificates. Legislative change could simply alter the charge to $US12,500 per certificate, instead of only $40. That's potentially over $5 million dollars lost annually," Mr Moloney said.

Well managed guided and recreational ground hunting could provide a huge income boost to Doc, countering that millions of tourism dollars would therefore not be at risk if heli-hunting on public land was banned, he said.

"High-value big-spending hunters visiting New Zealand do not expect to heli-hunt. Visiting tourist hunters are uncomfortable with heli-hunting.

"Using a helicopter to hunt from and run down animals for sport is banned anywhere else the world," Mr Moloney said.

"Helping out the cash-strapped Department of Conservation and supporting New Zealand as a quality hunting destination can be achieved simply without heli-hunts," Mr Moloney said.

He said data on the temporary heli-hunts concessions "reveals a damning picture". Doc charged each heli-hunt client only $780 dollars per hunt during 2011."Less than $800 per hunter is hardly high value, but it gets worse," Mr Moloney said.

While Doc revenue from concession payments was about $200,000 from heli-hunting, Mr Moloney said a breakdown of the costs of administering heli-hunts revealed a net income to New Zealand, after costs, of less than $100,000.

"No cost can be calculated as to the loss of New Zealand's 100% Pure brand image from heli-hunting," he said.

Safari Club International, whose members make up the majority of high-value hunters visiting New Zealand, disqualified heli-hunted animals from trophy status, he said.

"Heli-hunts produce worthless trophies to our most valued hunting tourists," Mr Moloney said.

At the centre of legal discussion is what is considered by some to be a "loophole" in the Wild Animal Control Act of 1977, which pre-dates the Conservation Act of 1987, but not the National Parks Act 1980.

The Wild Animal Control Act takes precedence over both, but heli-hunting operators and Doc say it authorises heli-hunting.

The Wild Animal Control Act allows heli-hunters to operate under a "wild animal recovery operator's" permit.

The legislation was enacted in the early days of deer carcass recovery; which does not specifically address trophy hunting, but nevertheless authorises heli-hunting concessions.

Mr Moloney said the temporary two-year heli-hunting concessions were "written for helicopter owner benefit and no-one else" and warned that if 10-year concessions, at present under consideration, were granted by Minister of Conservation Kate Wilkinson, it would be "a back-country disaster" for New Zealand.

"There are quality ways to promote New Zealand's spectacular back-country and hunting opportunities rather than selling New Zealand's Southern Alps as an aerially themed thrill park to fly around, running down animals with a helicopter," he said.

Mr Moloney questioned the sustainability of heli-hunters, saying the 16 businesses involved had requested to take 900 trophy tahr and 1100 chamois annually.

"Heli-hunting is unsupportable in the long term. If heli-hunters are allowed their demands, within five years heli-hunting will collapse its own business base, decimate the trophy animal pool and produce substandard trophies with dissatisfied international hunters leaving New Zealand feeling short-changed," Mr Moloney said.

On three separate occasions during the past decade heli-hunters had applied for concessions to conduct their activity and been turned down by the Otago, Canterbury and West Coast Conservation Boards, but they carried on heli-hunting anyway, he said.

The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, Jan Wright, was so concerned about the implications of 10-year heli-hunt concessions, she had initiated an investigation into the concession processes surrounding heli-hunts, he said.

Mr Moloney believed an open public consultation process attempting to install 10-year heli-hunting concessions on public land would be "overwhelmingly defeated"; which was what happened in Aoraki Mt Cook National Park when heli-hunting was publicly notified for consent and defeated by public opposition in 2010.

"Public land was never intended as income support for helicopter businesses relying on public tolerance of unethical, unwanted activity, for financial survival," Mr Moloney said.

It would appear the heli-hunting debate on using conservation land is headed in the same direction as last year's controversial mining proposal on accessing conservation land, which polarised public opinion and forced a Government U-turn.

Critical to the issue will be Doc's forthcoming decision on how it handles the question of whether to introduce 10-year concessions, and whether that proposal is publicly notified.

- simon.hartley@odt.co.nz



Helihunting To Be Banned
By Simon Hartley on Tue, 20 Dec 2011
News: Business | DOC

A contentious trophy hunting proposal, where the Department of Conservation is considering issuing 10-year permits to heli-hunting operations, appears set to be shelved.

In the short term, a major confrontation will be avoided between the groups and associations representing thousands of ground-based recreational hunters and 16 heli-hunting, mainly southern-based, operators, who host foreign hunters on conservation land shooting prized tahr and deer.

However, if due process and consideration for the 16 applicants under the law is not followed, legal counsel for the operators have threatened to seek a judicial review under the Bill of Rights.

The wider issue of heli-hunting in its present form is yet to be played out publicly.

Both parties - ground hunters and heli-hunting operators - claim millions of southern tourism dollars will be lost if their respective hunting methods are threatened in any way.

An internal Doc report has been completed on the applications of 16 heli-hunting operators for the 10-year concessions, including 12 operators who make up the South Island Wild Animal Recovery Operators Association, and a final Doc decision may be released this year.

The 16 operators get two-year temporary concessions from Doc, but critics claim they hunt because of a legislative "loophole" in the Wild Animal Control Act allowing a "wild animal recovery operators" permit, which some argue is for deer culling and recovery operations and not specifically for trophy hunting.

United Future's Peter Dunne campaigned to seek an outright heli-hunting ban; and he is now Associate Minister for Conservation.

Sources in Wellington said yesterday the proposal for 10-year heli-hunting will not go ahead, given Mr Dunne's agreement with National and his new conservation position.

"It [10-year concessions] will be `on hold' because of the agreement; it will not be a goer for Doc to pursue," the source said.

Mr Dunne was unavailable for comment yesterday and a senior Doc manager was unaware if the 10-year proposal had been formally shelved.

Counsel for the South Island Wild Animal Recovery Operators Association, Dunedin-based Colin Withnall QC, said he was not aware of any "shelving" of the 10-year concession proposal.

"They [16 operators] are entitled to apply and have their applications considered under the law that is in force." Mr Withnall said he had already cited precedent-setting cases, based on the Bill Of Rights, 1688, to Doc, and if applications were "shelved" he may consider seeking a judicial review.

Despite rumours circulating the ground-hunting fraternity that the heli-hunting section of the National and United Future supply and confidence agreement had been overturned, a spokesman for United denied the fortnight-old, three-year agreement had been overturned.

Consideration for the 10-year concession comes under Doc's Canterbury Conservancy, which has become the lead conservancy for processing heli-hunting concessions for the South Island, conservator Mike Cuddihy said yesterday.

He "couldn't verify" that the concession proposal had been shelved, saying a report on the applications by the 16 operators had been completed and was about to be sent to one of Doc's deputy director-generals.

"It [heli-hunting] is a very complex issue and there is a lot to be considered," he said.

Mr Cuddihy was aware of the report's findings but could not disclose any information, and it was possible the deputy director-general may publicly release his report before the end of the year.

duffy4
12-21-2011, 06:31 PM
We have "ethics" (which we often argue about) and we have laws and regulations which are often about standardizing ethics.

If a hunter thinks that something legal is not "ethical"they can state that and avoid doing it but they should not bug others for doing it.

Unless it is something they are really passionate about and then they should do what they can to see it changed.

I would carry a sign and protest against Heli-hunting native game here in Alberta.

The situation in NZ is a little different I think.

sheephunter
12-21-2011, 06:38 PM
We have "ethics" (which we often argue about) and we have laws and regulations which are often about standardizing ethics.

If a hunter thinks that something legal is not "ethical"they can state that and avoid doing it but they should not bug others for doing it.

Unless it is something they are really passionate about and then they should do what they can to see it changed.

I would carry a sign and protest against Heli-hunting native game here in Alberta.

The situation in NZ is a little different I think.

Why do you think it's different?

j m
12-21-2011, 09:39 PM
Safari Club International, whose members make up the majority of high-value hunters visiting New Zealand, disqualified heli-hunted animals from trophy status
Call me a synic, but to me this smells. SCI and ethics aren't two words I would put together as a match. They allow high fence and I don't see this heli hunting as any different.
"Heli-hunters pay only $400 dollars per tahr for an alpine trophy worth over $US12,500," he said.

My guess is someone high in SCI cornered the foot access Himalayan tahr market and doesn't want any competition. 6 months after the competition is gone the choppers will be back in the air, under new ownership.

jungleboy
12-21-2011, 09:53 PM
Wow and people get dumped on for hunting while on an ATV here! Hunting from a Helicopter would be a bit more akin to shooting a deer in a coral wouldn't it?
Personally I have a bit of a problem with shooting an animal strictly for it's "trophy" value anyway.

HunterDave
12-21-2011, 10:21 PM
I got that it was ethics versus economics......although some of the ethics side stands to benefit economically. I don't remember reading about how long this heli-hunting has gone on for but I'm thinking that it's not new and the times are catching up to the activity on the ethics side.

From an economical perspective, I can't see the business of heli-hunting being sustainable in the long term. It seems to me like a good way to quickly destroy a resource leaving very little to make any money on. Make your money today and to hell with tomorrow kind of thinking.

From an ethical standpoint, it definitely is not my thing although it'd be tough to say that it's any worse than some other legal types of hunting (ie. game farms). IMO it's not an ethical way of hunting and I wouldn't feel satisfied taking an animal this way.

For me, although I like the thought of having a monkey harness on and standing on the skid of a moving helicopter while shooting a high powered rifle, it's not much of a dilemma. It lacks both economically and ethically and should be done away with.

Cal
12-22-2011, 04:05 PM
Wow and people get dumped on for hunting while on an ATV here! Hunting from a Helicopter would be a bit more akin to shooting a deer in a coral wouldn't it?
Personally I have a bit of a problem with shooting an animal strictly for it's "trophy" value anyway.

Hunting animals for trophy value is just as legal as using an ATV so watch who you dump on.

sheephunter
12-22-2011, 04:09 PM
From an economical perspective, I can't see the business of heli-hunting being sustainable in the long term. It seems to me like a good way to quickly destroy a resource leaving very little to make any money on. Make your money today and to hell with tomorrow kind of thinking.



With no predators in New Zealand, helicopter gunning will continue strictly for management purposes regardless, they can't kill enough through hunting to keep up. This really all comes down to ethics or economics in regards to sport hunting primarily by visiting hunters as a sustainable population really isn't an issue if it continues or not.

jungleboy
12-22-2011, 06:36 PM
Hunting animals for trophy value is just as legal as using an ATV so watch who you dump on.

Take a Pill Cal I wasn't dumping on anyone. I said i have a problem with it I am in no way pushing my personal ideas on the matter just making them known.:snapoutofit:

ishootbambi
12-22-2011, 06:42 PM
so let me get this straight....they are shooting animals from helicopters and calling it hunting? my impression was that a helicopter takes you to the top of the mountain and then the hunter gets out to do his thing. that would be an ethics debate in itself, but am i mistaken on what this is about?

duffy4
12-22-2011, 08:38 PM
Yes there seems to be some confusion here.

Sheep's post is dealing with sport hunters being taken up in a helicopter to a place where they can make a short easier stalk on an animal and shoot it while your feet are on the ground.

However in NZ and in places in Au. they do some shooting from helicopters to kill off deer and goats and pigs and such where these "exotic" "imported" animals are doing harm to habitat or are in parks and in competition with native animals. Deer are poisoned in some areas.

All the mammals that are hunted in NZ are "exotic, imported" animals. That is the "difference" I referred to earlier.

huntinstuff
12-22-2011, 10:01 PM
Great article in Jan 2012 AO

As for hunting ethics, I do not believe in a global ethic

Ethics are personal guides. Legal is measureable.

Animals do not have rights. They are treated as each individual chooses to treat them.

If a naked African wants to throw 50 sharp sticks into an elephant in order to kill it, fine. If it takes 3 hours for it to die, fine. Thats how he does it. Probably wipes his ass with his bare hand too..... doesnt mean I have to

jungleboy
12-22-2011, 10:09 PM
Great article in Jan 2012 AO

As for hunting ethics, I do not believe in a global ethic

Ethics are personal guides. Legal is measureable.

Animals do not have rights. They are treated as each individual chooses to treat them.

If a naked African wants to throw 50 sharp sticks into an elephant in order to kill it, fine. If it takes 3 hours for it to die, fine. Thats how he does it. Probably wipes his ass with his bare hand too..... doesnt mean I have to

Well put excellent point.

HunterDave
12-23-2011, 12:21 AM
Yes there seems to be some confusion here.

Sheep's post is dealing with sport hunters being taken up in a helicopter to a place where they can make a short easier stalk on an animal and shoot it while your feet are on the ground.

Are you sure? It certainly sounds like they are hunting from helicopters to me. From the article:

"Using a helicopter to hunt from and run down animals for sport is banned anywhere else the world," Mr Moloney said.

If hunters get flown in to where the animals are and then hunt them on foot what part of that is unethical? People get flown into remote locations by float plane here in Canada to go hunting and others take quads, snowmobiles, boats, canoes or dogsleds. I drive my truck to where I go hunting. I understand that hunting from a helicopter is debatable but if you are hunting on foot, why would the mod of transport to get to where you are going to hunt be unethical? :confused:

bisonhunter
12-23-2011, 07:42 AM
The flip side of the coin is like sheep said, when animals have no natural enemies and great habitat they can breed so much they can change the way the ecosystem works. An example was the elk in Yellowstone park, without the wolves they chewed the willows down to nubs causing massive erosion on the riverbanks. When the wolves were reintroduced the willows grew back and the environment as a whole got healthier.
Here is an extreme example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZrFIcWzSEo

note where the crew comes from.

Cal
12-23-2011, 07:44 AM
Are you sure? It certainly sounds like they are hunting from helicopters to me. From the article:

"Using a helicopter to hunt from and run down animals for sport is banned anywhere else the world," Mr Moloney said.

If hunters get flown in to where the animals are and then hunt them on foot what part of that is unethical? People get flown into remote locations by float plane here in Canada to go hunting and others take quads, snowmobiles, boats, canoes or dogsleds. I drive my truck to where I go hunting. I understand that hunting from a helicopter is debatable but if you are hunting on foot, why would the mod of transport to get to where you are going to hunt be unethical? :confused:

I think your mistake is that you are using the term "animals" instead of "animal". Using a helicopter to get into an area that holds animals is acceptible IMO. I think these guys are using the helicopter to target individual animals though, spot the animal and drop the hunter off within stalking distance. That was the impression I got.

sheephunter
12-23-2011, 09:41 AM
Helicopters are used three ways for hunting in NZ from what I understand. The first is to fly guys into a remote camp and then come back to pick them up. I don't think this is under attack.

The second is for spotting animals and then the hunter is dropped and the animals chased to him by the helicopter.

The third is shooting right out of the helicopter.

It's the second two hunting methods that are under fire if I understand the issue correctly.