Changes to Sheep Hunting Regulations [Archive]

sheephunter

12-22-2011, 10:59 AM

As it seems Pudel's original post got drug in another direction, I thought I'd post his info regarding sheep again in a thread only dedicated to changes to sheep hunting regulations. Let's please keep mule deer out of this and keep it productive....this is the future of sheep hunting we are looking at.

Here's what pudel posted for the proposed changes:

Sounds like there are 3 proposals for sheep:

(South = South of the Bow, Central = Bow to Brazeau, North = North of Brazeau)

1. Put entire province on a draw. Doing the math with all the info available, this would allow approx 1150 permits. We now sell about 2200 sheep licenses per year, so it works out to an average of hunting every second year, although obviously some areas would be longer and some less depending on accessability and populations. This would allow management WMU by WMU

2. The north would stay as a general tag with 4/5 curl restrictions, the central would go on a draw with 4/5 curl restrictions (this area would allow about 300 permits). The south would stay as a general license but with full curl restrictions.

3. The entire province would stay as a general lisense but north would be 4/5 curl and both central and south would be full curl.

Other options available:
Wait times after harvesting a sheep:
1 yr after first sheep
3 yrs after 2nd sheep
5 yrs after 3rd sheep
7 yrs after 4th sheep

or

Wait time depending on age of sheep:
>10 yrs 1 yr wait
8 - 10 yrs 3 yr wait
6 - 8 yrs 5 yr wait
<6 yrs 7 yr wait

- Increasing sheep license fees ( to reduce number of hunters)

- Designated registration offices to keep measuring fair (this could increase travel of successful harvesters)

From what I understand these are what SRD brought to the AGMAG.

Here's a few questions that popped into my head after reading the above and I'll be posing these to the powers that be. Hopefully everyone else will ask their own questions as well. There may well be some logical explainations.

I'd suggest sending your questions to:

Jim Allen james.allen@gov.ab.ca

Honourable Frank Oberle peace.river@assembly.ab.ca

Rob Corrigan Rob.Corrigan@gov.ab.ca

Ron Bjorge ron.bjorge@gov.ab.ca

Anyhow, here are my thoughts.

1) What is the actual problem they are trying to address is? Obviously, or at least I think, they want to reduce ram harvest in the south and central portions of the province. Why? Are there not enough rams? Is there a problem with age structure? Is it to create a better quality trophy hunt?

2) Have they actually looked at the percentage of mature rams in areas like K-Country that reach or at least have the potential to reach the legal definition of full curl? Not doubt some will but I see this significantly reducing harvest compared to a draw unless they are only planning on issuing a couple tags per WMU.

3) I see they anticipate 2200 draw applicants but we already have 11,829 applicants for the five sheep draws we currently have and we've seen the increase in applicants that putting any species on draw creates. Am I missing something here? The 2200 number does not also take into account hunters that were ineligible to purchase a sheep licence in 2011 due to being successful in 2010. Realistically, it would seem to me that we'd end up with 15,000-20,000 applicants, increasing wait times to 15-20 years. Something just doesn't add up or perhaps they plan on handling this in another way which leads me to the next question.

4) Will these new WMUs be covered under a new draw code or amagamated with the current sheep draw codes as discussed last year?

5) If amalgamated, what will happen to current priority?

6) It looks as though resident opportunity will be cut in a minimum of half if a draw goes ahead. Will outfitters see a similar decrease in tags?

7) I see one of the options was to increase licence fees to basically price sheep out of the reach of many Alberta hunters. Is this for real?

8) Are the sheep population results are going to be released as promised by SRD?

9) What is the rationale behind further punishing sheep hunters for being successful.

10) Are other methods of sheep management being considered? While hunter management is a simple task, are issues like habitat, industrial use and predation also being looked at potential solutions to whatever the problem is?

Okotokian

12-22-2011, 11:12 AM

"Wait time depending on age of sheep:
>10 yrs 1 yr wait
8 - 10 yrs 3 yr wait
6 - 8 yrs 5 yr wait
<6 yrs 7 yr wait"

Observations of a dummy who has hunted sheep but never harvested one (that would be me):

How on earth would that ever be enforced short of having to bring every sheep harvested into "The official government age estimator"?

Come to think of it, how does the enforcement of any "wait time after harvest" actually work? Guy gets a sheep, tags it, takes it home. Never got stopped by F&W so there is no record he ever actually got anything. Yes, I get it that a taxidermist could keep records, but you aren't forced to go to one, and from the Lesnar case we know how reliable some of them are (not).

Wait time after issuance of tag seems the easiest to enforce. Sort of sucks if you weren't successful thoug to have to wait.

sheephunter

12-22-2011, 11:17 AM

All rams must be registered and plugged Oko so there is always a record. There is currently a one-year waiting period after killing a ram. This is one of the options being suggested that would penalize hunters for shooting younger legal rams. I don't think tracking the waiting periods would be that tough considering it's all done on computer. If you were unsuccessful, you wouldn't have to wait...only if you harvested a ram as is the case now.

The big problem I see with this is that you would lose a lot of potential sheep hunters. Most first-timers are willing to kill the first ram they see and if it's a young one, taking them out of sheep hunting for seven years is likely to take them out forever. Also, I don't see this having any impact on harvest. It would just be different guys shooting rams. Maybe that's their logic though...I don't know.

Okotokian

12-22-2011, 11:22 AM

This is one of the options being suggested that would penalize hunters for shooting younger legal rams.

It seems to me (or so I hear) that it's often difficult enough in many situations to judge whether a ram is legal or not. Is it reasonable to expect a hunter to be able to judge the age of a legal ram from 300 or 400 yards? If it's extremely difficult then it seems to me that a penalty for shooting a younger ram amounts to not much more than luck of the draw and won't accomplish anything in reality.

Awaiting your experienced knowledgable reply, Sheep LOL

sheephunter

12-22-2011, 11:29 AM

It seems to me (or so I hear) that it's often difficult enough in many situations to judge whether a ram is legal or not. Is it reasonable to expect a hunter to be able to judge the age of a legal ram from 300 or 400 yards? If it's extremely difficult then it seems to me that a penalty for shooting a younger ram amounts to not much more than luck of the draw and won't accomplish anything in reality.

Awaiting your experienced knowledgable reply, Sheep LOL

Accurately field aging bighorns is pretty well impossible but telling a young ram from an old one is certainly possible.

pottymouth

12-22-2011, 11:31 AM

sheephunter

12-22-2011, 11:33 AM

I agree potty and I think SRD realizes this too because they do talk about setting up central registration offices....I suspect with people trained in aging.

Neil Waugh

12-22-2011, 11:40 AM

It's pretty apparent there's a pent up demand for more sheep tags and the present habitat appears to be pretty well maxed.
One long term solution is to exponentially increase the RMS range to their historic habitats.
The southern and central Alberta river valleys. Just like Montana did in the Missouri River Breaks.
What's clearly needed is more harvest. Not a bunch of fine-tuning and inventing new ways to carve up the current surplus which doesn't appear to create one extra ram.

Okotokian

12-22-2011, 11:41 AM

I agree potty and I think SRD realizes this too because they do talk about setting up central registration offices....I suspect with people trained in aging.

I'm sorry, but I'm still lost...If the guidelines are such that you need to be an expert to assess the animal exactly, how can that be of much assistance to the fellow pulling the trigger? It seems a bit like handing out speeding tickets based on rate of speed when the cars have no speedometers. Actually, it's exactly like the new .05 law. No one actually knows how many drinks it takes them to hit .05. Only the guy with the breathalyzer knows, so the only totally safe course of action is to not drink (or shoot) at all.

sheephunter

12-22-2011, 11:48 AM

I'm sorry, but I'm still lost...If the guidelines are such that you need to be an expert to assess the animal exactly, how can that be of much assistance to the fellow pulling the trigger? It seems a bit like handing out speeding tickets based on rate of speed when the cars have no speedometers. Actually, it's exactly like the new .05 law. No one actually knows how many drinks it takes them to hit .05. Only the guy with the breathalyzer knows, so the only totally safe course of action is to not drink (or shoot) at all.

You aren't lost at all.;) It is exactly like the .05 law. You wouldn't actually be breaking any law shooting a legal ram but your sheep licence would be taken away for a considerable period of time depending on the age of the ram, which is difficult if not impossible to determine in the field and even open to arguement in the hands of professionals. Basically you are punished for doing something legal....just like the .05 law....lol

I guess the thing to remember is that it's only one of a long list of options.

top predator

12-22-2011, 11:56 AM

Wow, something to chew on...:test:

CNR

12-22-2011, 11:57 AM

If your happy with the ram...shoot! Its just you'll have to wait extra time before you can shoot another one if you like shooting youngsters. Nobody's going to jail! That can only help build the trophy quality.

spurly

12-22-2011, 12:13 PM

CNR

12-22-2011, 12:19 PM

If it is to go draw accross the province I would like to see a lottery points system, where your priority, determines, how many times your name is submitted. eg priority 14 your name goes in 14 times. Priority 1 your name goes in once.

No thanks! Don't like anything in which luck is involved.... If I'm a 14 I'd better be getting that tag before a 1 does.

spurly

12-22-2011, 12:21 PM

would you pefer to lose your priority, should they decide to eliminate them?

walking buffalo

12-22-2011, 12:22 PM

Accurately field aging bighorns is pretty well impossible but telling a young ram from an old one is certainly possible.

Even the courts of BC have come to the conclusion that aging bighorns by experts is NOT consistent. Several BC age based sheep seasons are closing (Going with curl definition only) due to the difficulty in having consistent aging of inspected ram by Bighorn experts.

SRD is setting up a legal battle if they put age based wait times on the books.

Why won't SRD learn from others failed attempts with the same management techniques? :1041:

Don K

12-22-2011, 12:23 PM

Other options available:
Wait times after harvesting a sheep:
1 yr after first sheep
3 yrs after 2nd sheep
5 yrs after 3rd sheep
7 yrs after 4th sheep

I don't think this is really unreasonable? If it was still on general tags it's a decent plan I think. As well it'd give guys that typically spend a lot of time in the mountains a chance to go after some other species.

Is there any talk of reintroducing sheep to some of their old haunts?

Dark Wing

12-22-2011, 12:24 PM

CNR

12-22-2011, 12:26 PM

would you pefer to lose your priority, should they decide to eliminate them?

There's no need to change our current draw system......unless it goes to a once a lifetime thing. Which isn't even reasonable for this subject!

sheephunter

12-22-2011, 12:28 PM

spurly

12-22-2011, 12:31 PM

And I suspect the outfitters, will not lose any tags.

sheephunter

12-22-2011, 12:32 PM

And I suspect the outfitters, will not lose any tags.

If a draw happens and resident opportunity is reduced by 50%, you'd hope that the NRA allotment received a similar cut.

H380

12-22-2011, 12:32 PM

By changing the rules we , are still not addressing the 2 biggest problems
Predation- which is impossible to calculate or control.

aboriginal rights- If we are trying to produce bigger sheep, we may produce them for the wrong group.
In the 400 area, we have too much access, and have lost quite a few rams, around the shell waterton comlex, as well as Crowsnest lakes area, where we apparently lost 3 rams last week. this is not 100% confirmed yet, but from a reiable source.

If it is to go draw accross the province I would like to see a lottery points system, where your priority, determines, how many times your name is submitted. eg priority 14 your name goes in 14 times. Priority 1 your name goes in once.

Not trying to derail your thread sheep hunter , but I hadn't heard about this latest in the seemingly never ending" late sheep shooter saga" .. Stuff like this makes changes to sheep hunting { draws , etc.} even more difficult to do .. I mean come on , everybody needs to be on a level playing field .. How do you have a regular season with regs. and rules and then somebody comes in after the season and helps themselves to what is already a limited trophy species .. It's not like taking some muley or whitetail does for the table .

spurly

12-22-2011, 12:37 PM

I think where it needs to start is to re-define the word subsistense.to mean any animal that does not bear horns or antlers, or is otherwise considered to be a trophy animal, such as grizzly or cougar.

Don K

12-22-2011, 12:38 PM

Not trying to derail your thread sheep hunter , but I hadn't heard about this latest in the seemingly never ending" late sheep shooter saga" .. Stuff like this makes changes to sheep hunting { draws , etc.} even more difficult to do .. I mean come on , everybody needs to be on a level playing field .. How do you have a regular season with regs. and rules and then somebody comes in after the season and helps themselves to what is already a limited trophy species .. It's not like taking some muley or whitetail does for the table .

Going to have them taking sheep off the winter range unless there are serious changes made to our laws. Unfortunately the government lacks the raisins necessary to do that. Sheep will always be shot from now till spring by them as it's easy pickings... It's much easier to try and manage us.

walking buffalo

12-22-2011, 12:46 PM

And I suspect the outfitters, will not lose any tags.

The timing of these changes is interesting. I wonder if APOS helped delay the changes (expected last year) until after they negotiate their new 5 year agreement.

I suspect that APOS will try to close the new 5 year Outfitter allocation agreement before signing off on the sheep hunting changes. This way they can have five years of higher allocations before having to play along with new restrictions.

sheephunter

12-22-2011, 12:51 PM

The timing of these changes is interesting. I wonder if APOS helped delay the changes (expected last year) until after they negotiate their new 5 year agreement.

I suspect that APOS will try to close the new 5 year Outfitter allocation agreement before signing off on the sheep hunting changes. This way they can have five years of higher allocations before having to play along with new restrictions.

One would hope that with the knowledge that major changes are being considered for 2013 that it would factor into any allocations handed out. I mean everyone at the table knows something restrictive to residents is going to happen.

spurly

12-22-2011, 12:54 PM

To the best of my knowledge, the sheep alocations were lifetime tags, to the outfitters, who can also sell, or lease to another outfitter, they do not come up for bid or negotiation. things may have changed, so correct me if I am wrong here.

Frans

12-22-2011, 12:55 PM

Some good questions posed already.

Mine will be:

1. please define the problem - not enough rams? trophy quality too low? age structure? not enough sheep altogether? something else?

2. please provide us with the data which were used to define the problem - counts, field studies into age structure, etc etc

3. please provide details on how each option would be implemented (e.g. the existing priority issue; what will happen if suddenly 12,000 hunters apply instead of the envisaged 2,000)

4. what other management options are you considering (predation control, habitat conservation, access, etc)?

5. if there will be restrictions on number of tags, please inform us how outfitters will be impacted.

Probably will come up with a few more.

Justin.C

12-22-2011, 12:56 PM

As stated in all other sheep threads. Were is the proof there is a problem. The only problem is we keep loosing land to hunt sheep. Provincial parks are the real problem for us loosing opertunity. But on the other hand PP were designed for recreation. Also the gov stated hunting is a recreational sport. So why are me not aloud to hunt in them. That would also make it better as that is were 80+% of the sheep live.

pottymouth

12-22-2011, 01:07 PM

>10 yrs 1 yr wait
8 - 10 yrs 3 yr wait
6 - 8 yrs 5 yr wait
<6 yrs 7 yr wait"

I was thinking on my drive to work, and 2 more questions popped up on this part of the topic.

1)On a heavy broomed ram, would they only count the actual rings or would they consider the missing portion? and how would the missing portion be determined?

2) Area's like K-country that are known for big loopey curls, might see less pressure. More pressure might be directed to places like the central zones where curls are alot more tighter.

In K-country you could have a legal ram as low as 4 1/2 yrs old, but usually 6 1/2 is what im understanding is average, but that 6 1/2 yr old ram could easily score 170+, and have a 5 yr wait.

Where the tight curl zones take longer to reach legal, and actually older in age, but smaller in size. So a 8 1/2+ yr old ram could be barely legal and only score in the 150's !

I'm thinking that a division intypes of sheephunters would occur. Some want score, and some quanity...But guys that like to just sheep hunt would probably head north on the age thing, cause wait time would be much less, between mounts!

Just my thinking, maybe I'm over thinking it???

Skywalker

12-22-2011, 01:10 PM

If they are going to put the province on draw I should hope that they include at least half of the month of November. If limiting the amount of hunters is the reason they can at least expand on the opportunities. We all know that the draw will be full of guys who have never hunted sheep before and after a couple of good hills will retire. Also November hunting can be an extreme sport up there. It would be a nice nod to the experienced folks. Not to mention it would take a lot of pressure off of the 438 November draws.

sheephunter

12-22-2011, 01:13 PM

>10 yrs 1 yr wait
8 - 10 yrs 3 yr wait
6 - 8 yrs 5 yr wait
<6 yrs 7 yr wait"

1)On a heavy broomed ram, would they only count the actual rings or would they consider the missing portion? and how would the missing portion be determined?

??

There is a formula for it that should be plus or minus one year that they use on thinhorns so I suspect there is the same for bighorns.

209x50

12-22-2011, 01:14 PM

pottymouth

12-22-2011, 01:15 PM

pottymouth

12-22-2011, 01:19 PM

I think maybe the question that needs answering is WHO wants the changes? Who sits at this panel and discusses this? I see some proposals that were floated on this very board in the last 2 years that makes me suspicious that an organization is behind this. Like the goofy cop shows on TV I always look to the money and who would profit. For me the obvious winner is APOS but then i look around at some of the representative groups to see who makes up their membership. I could be in left field here and i hope I'm proved wrong but it looks to me like we have a fox in the chicken coup.

Is there any type of competition commitee ( like the NHL has) we have to oppose these changes. Or is it each individual society needs to make a plea, along with individual people? If we don't have one maybe we should organize one people's commitee, instead of 10-15 seperate ones with their own agenda's !

sheephunter

12-22-2011, 01:32 PM

Is there any type of competition commitee ( like the NHL has) we have to oppose these changes. Or is it each individual society needs to make a plea, along with individual people? If we don't have one maybe we should organize one people's commitee, instead of 10-15 seperate ones with their own agenda's !

If anything potty, I think recent events have shown how powerful the individual is. I belong to several conservation organizations and like to and in this case will make myself aware of their position but I think all of us should voice our concerns, questions, etc on issues like this. The individual voice is powerful. I'm glad that their is public consultation through the conservation groups I support but I may not always agree with their stance and then I want my position heard too. This doesn't make the group wrong or sway my opinion of the good work they do but sometimes, I just don't agree with them 100% and want to make sure that SRD is aware of other positions. I'd never criticize a group for representing the wishes of their membership but I do want my individual say as well. I guess if enough people feel the same way and send their individual thoughts, it suddenly becomes the voice of a group without taking away from the voice of the other groups. I think that makes sense anyhow...lol

Duk Dog

12-22-2011, 01:38 PM

I'm curious to see how much influence APOS had on these decisions. I know of some of the local sheep outfitters that were complaining about the high hunting pressure pushing sheep out of a lot of their traditional ranges.

What they should be complaining about is the loss of areas that once upon a time were open to traditional activities such as hunting and now aren't. Every time hunting is banned from an area it creates additional safe havens for critters which could possibly adapt by staying in those no hunting zones.

Speckle55

12-22-2011, 01:44 PM

say that the Province has 5000 sheep

of them what percent are rams that are legal

so how do you want to hunt them

the way it was before draws was everyone had the same chance buy tag hunt if 300 legal rams were shot it was done ( it did not happen 300 shot in one year)

Now on Draws in some areas still have the same number being shot as before..

so now lets change that and make more draws but the number of sheep killed stay the same ?

so now lets make it so the good die hard hunters have to wait a few years after they kill?

there still is only X number of legal sheep and there are more hunter's than legal rams ..

now lets getting more into sheep Game Ranching and selling tags to the American's or higgest bidder like we have been doing the last 20 or so years and oh we will allow Albertans to have a draw too in that Game Ranch area .. but hey DO NOT CALL CADOMIN A GAME RANCH just because we feed them and they do not leave much or they have so much human animal exposure that you shoot them with one hand as you pet them with the other.. and just because they have a horn rot issue at the Mine sites(industry spills etc) and hooves that are 6inches long and one has had high Selenium in blood sample (google selenium kill sheep 160 dead in 6 hrs)

in sheep hunting you have to put in X number of days to get a legal sheep does any one one here know what that number is and are we here in Alberta trying to make is easier than mother nature does allready..

Are we in Alberta throwing away our conservation and nature's balance

Hunting

The Rich ..who are content to buy what they have not the Skill to get by their own exertions..these are the Real Enemies of the game !!
Theodore Roosevelt
Principles of the Hunt

Food for Thought
David

Don K

12-22-2011, 01:48 PM

What they should be complaining about is the loss of areas that once upon a time were open to traditional activities such as hunting and now aren't. Every time hunting is banned from an area it creates additional safe havens for critters which could possibly adapt by staying in those no hunting zones.

Exactly. There are areas west of me that used to hold lots of animals, but with the introduction of these areas the animals have adjusted from the traditional range...

blackmamba

12-22-2011, 01:49 PM

Unfortunately, CO's have a hard time coming up with the same age as one another! Just like some co's are harder on judging than others. I'm sure after awhile there will prefered office to go to!

We had 4 officers give 3 different ages on mambas ram! The 5th admitted she wasn't sure, and asked what we thought....lol

not to mention the officer asked as to why my second tag was not applied to the hind leg of my sheep ????

So if these proposed wait times are to begin as per age of the animal , do these wait times include the rams one has already harvested , or does only apply to the guys submitting rams under the new regulations??

Rackmastr

12-22-2011, 01:50 PM

not to mention the officer asked as to why my second tag was not applied to the hind leg of my sheep ????

So if these proposed wait times are to begin as per age of the animal , do these wait times include the rams one has already harvested , or does only apply to the guys submitting rams under the new regulations??

Haha....ya what a joke...

I would think they'd start when the regulation was changed.

Nait Hadya

12-22-2011, 03:26 PM

Alberta Class Proceedings Act.

sheephunter

12-22-2011, 03:28 PM

not to mention the officer asked as to why my second tag was not applied to the hind leg of my sheep ????

So if these proposed wait times are to begin as per age of the animal , do these wait times include the rams one has already harvested , or does only apply to the guys submitting rams under the new regulations??

It would have to start with new regulation being enacted same as the wait times based on how many rams you have killed. We'd all start at zero. From what I hear, the new wait times based on number of rams killed will come into effect in 2012.

PLOTT

12-22-2011, 04:09 PM

Not sure we need any major changes but a draw would be the worst thing that could happen. The wait periods are a lesser evil as most successful sheep hunters are content if they harvest a good ram. The high predator and late winter sheep hunters have to be addressed before they can restict us.

sheephunter

12-22-2011, 04:11 PM

The high predator and late winter sheep hunters have to be addressed before they can restict us.

You'd think so but it appears that is not the case.

209x50

12-22-2011, 04:20 PM

I've sent my emails asking the questions and expressing my outrage and disgust. Everyone who is unhappy or confused should do the same.

Okotokian

12-22-2011, 04:22 PM

Everyone who is unhappy or confused should do the same.

About anything in particular? LOL

209x50

12-22-2011, 04:39 PM

About anything in particular? LOL
But of course you always should!

sheephunter

12-22-2011, 04:42 PM

The wait times according to ram age and increasing licence fees to reduce hunter numbers are off the table according to SRD.

Justin.C

12-22-2011, 04:43 PM

I've sent my emails asking the questions and expressing my outrage and disgust. Everyone who is unhappy or confused should do the same.

The prolem is all the people whining about not getting a sheep standing on the road like a deer.

I agree 100% with u.

Justin.C

12-22-2011, 04:46 PM

The wait times according to ram age and increasing licence fees to reduce hunter numbers are off the table according to SRD.

So why is there any change period????

I see nothing but bad for this whole thing. I wonder how many people will not register rams????

sheephunter

12-22-2011, 04:47 PM

So why is there any change period????

No idea...just passing along what I know.

Justin.C

12-22-2011, 04:48 PM

No idea...just passing along what I know.

Were did your info come from?

sheephunter

12-22-2011, 04:49 PM

Were dis your info come from?

As I said in the post above that you quoted....SRD

Justin.C

12-22-2011, 04:51 PM

As I said in the post above that you quoted....SRD

Thanks who at SRD???? Anybody that has any credentials to be able to actually know???

209x50

12-22-2011, 04:54 PM

The prolem is all the people whining about not getting a sheep standing on the road like a deer.

I agree 100% with u.
I don't believe that is who started this. I think it is far more organized than that.

sheephunter

12-22-2011, 04:55 PM

209x50

12-22-2011, 05:03 PM

Also, according to SRD, the option to leave things as is still exists too "but a negative is that there will be a continued decline in the quality of rams available"

According to SRD, some stakeholder groups favour a draw and that's why the option was presented by SRD. It sounds like there will be a meeting next spring amoung the stakeholder groups.
So knowing the stake holder groups at the table when we shout "show me the money!" Who stands up? APOS for one and perhaps Wild Sheep. I've heard complaints that Wild Sheep is far to heavily influenced by the outfitters. Is it true? I don't know but it sounds like more than one stakeholder group wants changes.

pottymouth

12-22-2011, 05:04 PM

sheephunter

12-22-2011, 05:05 PM

So knowing the stake holder groups at the table when we shout "show me the money!" Who stands up? APOS for one and perhaps Wild Sheep. I've heard complaints that Wild Sheep is far to heavily influenced by the outfitters. Is it true? I don't know but it sounds like more than one stakeholder group wants changes.

I'm not sure. No groups were named.

sheephunter

12-22-2011, 05:06 PM

do we know who the stakeholder groups that are in favour are?

I didn't ask and no groups were named by the fellow I got the information from. I honestly don't have a clue.

Gulo gulo

12-22-2011, 05:07 PM

I think maybe the question that needs answering is WHO wants the changes? Who sits at this panel and discusses this? I see some proposals that were floated on this very board in the last 2 years that makes me suspicious that an organization is behind this. Like the goofy cop shows on TV I always look to the money and who would profit. For me the obvious winner is APOS but then i look around at some of the representative groups to see who makes up their membership. I could be in left field here and i hope I'm proved wrong but it looks to me like we have a fox in the chicken coup.

Well said sir,
I don’t know why we as residents are even considering these options. I will only consider restrictions to us until AFTER the non-residents are restricted first. Non-residents have a much higher success rate (~55%) opposed to residents (~4%) – so it only make sense to restrict them first as you will be reducing harvest by affecting the fewest number of people, a win win.

mad mountain mike

12-22-2011, 05:58 PM

According to SRD, some stakeholder groups favour a draw and that's why the option was presented by SRD. It sounds like there will be a meeting next spring amoung the stakeholder groups.

I really can't believe what I am reading! If its truly about healthy sheep populations why are they meeting with stake holders and not bioligists! Follow the money is right.

Justin.C

12-22-2011, 06:03 PM

walking buffalo

12-22-2011, 06:43 PM

I didn't ask and no groups were named by the fellow I got the information from. I honestly don't have a clue.

Would it be AGMAG?

Alberta Bowhunters Association
Alberta Fish & Game Association
Hunting For Tomorrow
Alberta Professional Outfitters Society
SRD (Game Management & Enforcement)
Tourism & Parks
Pheasants Forever
Wild Sheep Foundation (Alberta)
Alberta Association of Municipal Districts & Counties
Alberta Beef Producers
Alberta Chapter of the Wildlife Society
Delta Waterfowl Foundation
Ducks Unlimited Canada

Dr Death

12-22-2011, 09:22 PM

woods_walker

12-22-2011, 09:26 PM

It would definitely help to have some true clarity on what SRD's target strategy would be for provincial sheep. I would think that putting sheep on a draw everywhere, while it would limit the number of individuals hunting a wmu each season, wouldn't noticeably reduce the number of sheep shot each season and instead could possibly increase the harvest success in some wmu's. Those drawing a tag would likely hunt harder given they know they won't be able to go out for a few more years REGARDLESS of whether they harvest a sheep. An optimistic 3-4 year wait based on draws wouldn't be much different than lengthening the current waiting period of 2 years if one harvests a ram but would would definitely reduce resident hunter opportunities in general. I wonder how many of the people purchasing general trophy sheep tags put in more than one or two trips or a week in most of the areas, especially those with more difficult access. I know guys who buy a tag, put in a couple weekends and that is it for the season. Bought a tag (elevating hunter numbers) but really haven't spent many days out, so their opportunity for a successful harvest is low. I bet a lot of purchasers of sheep tags fall into that kind of scenario.

As others have mentioned, non-resident oppportunity should also decrease, ESPECIALLY if resident opportunity decreases. Is there a way of finding out by wmu what the percentage of total rams harvested is by outfitters? Or what the percentage of success on rams is overall in the province by outfitters each year? If reduced harvest is the goal, and removing the most successful hunting group is the goal, then outfitters unfortunately would fit that group. I don't think that punishing hunters for being successful is the answer though.

Also, the wait based on age class of the harvested ram doesn't make much sense if in one part of the province you can shoot a legal ram that is a few years younger than a legal ram in another. You could end up waiting 5 years instead of 3 (if the waits posted are right), and that makes no sense. I know I will be hunting northern zones for the opportunity to hunt sheep more often if that is the case, but for me most of my hunting enjoyment comes from getting out and enjoying the opportunity.

I would think that changing wmu's to full curl would most likely increase the 'trophy' potential (although any legal ram is a trophy) across the province and would also increase the age class of rams being harvested. Yes, some areas may see broomed off rams that don't meet full curl but those rams also have the ability to pass on a good set of genetics and maybe their offspring won't be as aggressive in brooming off their horns and will be full curl. I don't think this would be the same scenario as finding mostly 5 point bull elk in 6 point zones (sorry to mention the elk in this sheep thread). Full curl regulation still won't address guys shooting non-legal rams. They will just be non-legal rams that are a couple years older, so the harvest of non-legal rams can't be the issue that SRD is trying to resolve.

Easy access into some of the areas definitely sounds like it affects the harvest of sheep in some wmu's. Hate to say it, but maybe there needs to be restrictions on access. I harvested my ram in an area with atv access but have also been in on harvests where atvs were not permitted. I've done multi day backpack trips to get to where I wanted to hunt as well. Never used a horse for hunting, but restricting or reducing their use in some areas would definitely affect sheep harvest levels in many wmus. One thing I always wondered was why sheep season starts on August 25. I like hunting in late August/early September when I sleep in my tent, but have wondered what a later start to the season would do in regards to the number of hunters trying to get sheep. I wonder how many hunters hunt sheep because that is what is open first and once other animal seasons open up don't ever go back out for sheep.

Those are my thoughts for now. Hopefully SRD uses good judgement in their upcoming decisions and have the best interests of sheep and Alberta residents in mind and not the best interests of agencies with money. This is however, the province of Alberta and money seems to talk to this government.

LongDraw

12-22-2011, 09:53 PM

I know that one of the many proposals/ideas they are looking at is outfitter tags south of the Bow. They want to take some pressure off the West Central areas, and this, they believe, may help. I'm also told that outfitter allotment reductions are NOT an option. The Gov't can't afford to buy them out at market value and there would apparently be 'serious legal issues' if they were reduced in any other way.

Isn't it great that there is a proposal so the Outfitters/ Non Resident Aliens don't lose any opportunity on Trophy Sheep, yet being bantered to fix the "problem" is longer sit out's, and all resident sheep tags going on draw.

Adding insult to injury the concession that is being looked at for outfitters would put even more pressure on sheep, opening up a resident only area to non-residents.

This is seriously flawed logic, outrageous!

Justin.C

12-22-2011, 09:57 PM

I know that one of the many proposals/ideas they are looking at is outfitter tags south of the Bow. They want to take some pressure off the West Central areas, and this, they believe, may help. I'm also told that outfitter allotment reductions are NOT an option. The Gov't can't afford to buy them out at market value and there would apparently be 'serious legal issues' if they were reduced in any other way.There is no legal issue... If there is a need of a reduction nonresident should be the first to go... Also it is a business... Some times you loss in business. Not my problem. nor the other 2000+ actual sheep hunters... Also up to $30000 ever year they should be alrite from there loss... I am sick of special treatment APOS gets in alberta. They really dont bring in all the money they say they do...

sheephunter

12-23-2011, 09:26 AM

Rem7

12-23-2011, 09:28 AM

Does anyone see any similarity to the moose draw? Years ago when they planned to introduce the moose draw there was a big uproar...in the end the draw started, hunting was not limited by subsistence hunters and outfitter tags were not cut...meanwhile our wait times for moose tags grow exponentially...thereby creating more pressure on the zones up north...thereby creating longer wait times for the draws up north...I am glad that I have had the opportunity to hunt in my early years because soon the only opportunity to hunt sheep will be once in a lifetime....

Justin.C

12-23-2011, 10:05 AM

After speaking with SRD, they are adamant about sticking with the 2200 applicant number when calculating wait times for a potential draw. I don't get it. Their own draw summary for 2011 clearly shows that we had 11,829 people apply for the five sheep draws we had this year, how do they calculate we'll see an 85% reduction in applicants when we add more draws? This isn't rocket science. I'm not sure why they are so intent on selling the stakeholders on a draw based on information that is this innaccurate. I'd suggest that all people that are members of any of the working groups in AGMAG let their Board and members know they are being sold a bill of goods based on some very inaccurate information. I was told that they viewed 2200 as a best case scenario. Unfortunately, the facts and history say that 11,829 is the best case scenario....speculation says it will be worse. I really hope this was just an error in the data they used and there is no other agenda here but they sure aren't willing to admit either......:angry3:Yes that sure sounds like they are really trying to push this though. I just dont understand how people can have there eyes closes so much....Anybody that sheep hunts know that a huge amount ofd people apply for tags that dont even hunt sheep....The numbers speak for them self... Almost 12000 applicants and only 2200 tags bought annually... Pretty simple math to me. 12000 applicant means we will be waiting 7+years just to have a chance to draw a tag... Also this does not mean you will kill one either...Than another 7+ year wait.... I agree with the last post it will probably turn into a once a life tag.... To bad outfitters still will have a free run like always...Same guy will come up every year and kill a ram and resident get screwd again.......:angry3: And we wonder why there is a poacher problem in our province...:rolleye2:

Rackmastr

12-23-2011, 10:15 AM

After speaking with SRD, they are adamant about sticking with the 2200 applicant number when calculating wait times for a potential draw. I don't get it. Their own draw summary for 2011 clearly shows that we had 11,829 people apply for the five sheep draws we had this year, how do they calculate we'll see an 85% reduction in applicants when we add more draws? This isn't rocket science. I'm not sure why they are so intent on selling the stakeholders on a draw based on information that is this innaccurate. I'd suggest that all people that are members of any of the working groups in AGMAG let their Board and members know they are being sold a bill of goods based on some very inaccurate information. I was told that they viewed 2200 as a best case scenario. Unfortunately, the facts and history say that 11,829 is the best case scenario....speculation says it will be worse. I really hope this was just an error in the data they used and there is no other agenda here but they sure aren't willing to admit either......:angry3:

Haha ya wow if they actually think that 2200 is the number, they are sadly mistaken. Unfortunatly, the 2200 people are just the guys that buy a tag each year from the sounds of it. Several hunters apply in a high-odds draw for the mere chance to have a good successful sheep hunt, yet dont buy a sheep tag every year. If they put more and more on draw, more of these guys would spread out their applications and you'd see those draw numbers stay right up near that 11,000 mark. Uggh....why doesnt SRD wake up and see this??

In any event, it sure seems like a lot of solutions to a problem that hasnt really been identified and that dont address any problems that they ARE trying to identify....

Man I cant wait to chase some Stones sheep in the upcoming years....:scared0015:

sheephunter

12-23-2011, 10:20 AM

Yes that sure sounds like they are really trying to push this though. I just dont understand how people can have there eyes closes so much....Anybody that sheep hunts know that a huge amount ofd people apply for tags that dont even hunt sheep....The numbers speak for them self... Almost 12000 applicants and only 2200 tags bought annually... Pretty simple math to me. 12000 applicant means we will be waiting 7+years just to have a chance to draw a tag... Also this does not mean you will kill one either...Than another 7+ year wait.... I agree with the last post it will probably turn into a once a life tag.... To bad outfitters still will have a free run like always...Same guy will come up every year and kill a ram and resident get screwd again.......:angry3: And we wonder why there is a poacher problem in our province...:rolleye2:

Sounds more like 10-11 years hunters will be waiting based on 1150 tags....if the number of applicants doesn't increase from the current 11,829....I suspect it will....considerably. History tells us that.

Justin.C

12-23-2011, 10:28 AM

Sounds more like 10-11 years hunters will be waiting based on 1150 tags....if the number of applicants doesn't increase from the current 11,829....I suspect it will....considerably. History tells us that.Yes you are rite.... We get screwd if that happens... So if we get this crap what do outfitters get???? Or sorry what dont they get...:scared:

sheephunter

12-23-2011, 10:30 AM

Yes you are rite.... We get screwd if that happens... So if we get this crap what do outfitters get???? Or sorry what dont they get...:scared:

I've asked that question but haven't got an answer yet. It definitely begs asking though.

Justin.C

12-23-2011, 10:31 AM

Haha ya wow if they actually think that 2200 is the number, they are sadly mistaken. Unfortunatly, the 2200 people are just the guys that buy a tag each year from the sounds of it. Several hunters apply in a high-odds draw for the mere chance to have a good successful sheep hunt, yet dont buy a sheep tag every year. If they put more and more on draw, more of these guys would spread out their applications and you'd see those draw numbers stay right up near that 11,000 mark. Uggh....why doesnt SRD wake up and see this??

In any event, it sure seems like a lot of solutions to a problem that hasnt really been identified and that dont address any problems that they ARE trying to identify....

Man I cant wait to chase some Stones sheep in the upcoming years....:scared0015:I am with you... Stones in the near future for me as well.... Can still come and hunt all we have here... Just not sheep... sounds like that is going to be the case anyway.

Justin.C

12-23-2011, 10:33 AM

I've asked that question but haven't got an answer yet. It definitely begs asking though.The real deal is if we go in a draw of this magnitude why are outfitter even outfitting for sheep.... I smell APOS is one of the major steakholders on this big push...:mad0100:

Nait Hadya

12-23-2011, 11:06 AM

There is no legal issue...

there is a legal issue! failure after failure in the management of OUR wildlife and natural resources.

failure to protect the caribou.
failure to protect the grizzly
failure to protect bull trout
failure to protect bighorn sheep
failure to protect watersheds
failure to protect natural areas
failure to protect ecological areas
failure to control ferral populations
failure to provide necessary monies
failure to protect the rights and privileges of it's residents.

you have more than enough reasons to haul them into court,do it...

Huntnut

12-23-2011, 11:11 AM

Yes that sure sounds like they are really trying to push this though. I just dont understand how people can have there eyes closes so much....Anybody that sheep hunts know that a huge amount ofd people apply for tags that dont even hunt sheep....The numbers speak for them self... Almost 12000 applicants and only 2200 tags bought annually... Pretty simple math to me. 12000 applicant means we will be waiting 7+years just to have a chance to draw a tag... Also this does not mean you will kill one either...Than another 7+ year wait.... I agree with the last post it will probably turn into a once a life tag.... To bad outfitters still will have a free run like always...Same guy will come up every year and kill a ram and resident get screwd again.......:angry3: And we wonder why there is a poacher problem in our province...:rolleye2:

X2

If they go through with this it will be a sad sad state for Alberta sheep hunters. I know I've sent in my questions and stated my outrage by these proposals-wheater you sheep hunt or not you should do the same because this could be just the beginning.

Justin.C

12-23-2011, 11:18 AM

Ok. I will bite. You have it as a resident we could. As an outfitter they loose tags as there is a lack of tags for them. There is no legal leg to stand on. I don't care what they payed. In business you win some you loose. Unless you are apps. Our government bendsover for them. Maybe we should sue them both for missmanagement and conflict of interest. I don't know. QUOTE=Nait Hadya;1222260]there is a legal issue! failure after failure in the management of OUR wildlife and natural resources.

failure to protect the caribou.
failure to protect the grizzly
failure to protect bull trout
failure to protect bighorn sheep
failure to protect watersheds
failure to protect natural areas
failure to protect ecological areas
failure to control ferral populations
failure to provide necessary monies
failure to protect the rights and privileges of it's residents.

you have more than enough reasons to haul them into court,do it...[/QUOTE]

Huntnut

12-23-2011, 11:37 AM

So any chance this is being pushed through by the "strong" AFGA group from down south that originally started it a couple of years ago?

Pudelpointer

12-23-2011, 11:58 AM

So any chance this is being pushed through by the "strong" AFGA group from down south that originally started it a couple of years ago?

Please explain: what group? What did they propose?

sheephunter

12-23-2011, 12:00 PM

X2

If they go through with this it will be a sad sad state for Alberta sheep hunters. I know I've sent in my questions and stated my outrage by these proposals-wheater you sheep hunt or not you should do the same because this could be just the beginning.

Huntnut, make sure everyone you write knows that the government is using inaccurate numbers in their draw scenario. It's a travisty what they are doing. I could understand them accidentally overlooking the actual number of draw appluicants that we currently have but not to recognize their mistake and correct it really only leads one direction that I can see.

Huntnut

12-23-2011, 12:18 PM

Huntnut, make sure everyone you write knows that the government is using inaccurate numbers in their draw scenario. It's a travisty what they are doing. I could understand them accidentally overlooking the actual number of draw appluicants that we currently have but not to recognize their mistake and correct it really only leads one direction that I can see.

Oh I made sure of that.

Huntnut

12-23-2011, 12:28 PM

Please explain: what group? What did they propose?

I can't find it but a year of two ago there was a 30+ page discussion on this very thing. Turns out that an AFGA group from southern Alberta came up with this proposal.
As 209 said earlier- I think that there is a fox in the hen house.

Pudelpointer

12-23-2011, 12:58 PM

I can't find it but a year of two ago there was a 30+ page discussion on this very thing. Turns out that an AFGA group from southern Alberta came up with this proposal.
As 209 said earlier- I think that there is a fox in the hen house.

IIRC (and I often don't) a club from the pass put forward a resolution about lengthening the wait time for sheep (3-5 years; I think it started at 5 and then it was modified to 3 at conference where, I might add it was voted down).

I think what we have here is an extreme escalation of those original proposals to address perceived problems with sheep.

Clubs put forward resolutions (that are submitted by individual members) to the Zone, who then forward them to the AFGA for ratification. Many proposals are made every year, and many of them are rejected. I wouldn't say that just because a group decides to forward a resolution, it is in full support of it; maybe they think it is a topic that NEEDS to be discussed at the Association level.

If this group is trying to influence the AGMAG outside of the AFGA process, then I think we have an issue. Is there any evidence of that?

Huntnut

12-23-2011, 01:15 PM

Is there any evidence of that?

None that I have-but I don't think that SRD came up with this all by themselves.

sheephunter

12-23-2011, 01:19 PM

None that I have-but I don't think that SRD came up with this all by themselves.

According to SRD the draw suggestion came from stakeholders in AGMAG, SRD is just the one that put the info together on what a draw would like like....through rose coloured glasses!

Huntnut

12-23-2011, 01:33 PM

According to SRD the draw suggestion came from stakeholders in AGMAG, SRD is just the one that put the info together on what a draw would like like....through rose coloured glasses!

Excuse my ignorance but what does AGMAG stand for again???

sheephunter

12-23-2011, 01:38 PM

Excuse my ignorance but what does AGMAG stand for again???

Alberta Game Management Advisory Group if memory serves me correctly.

Huntnut

12-23-2011, 01:57 PM

Alberta Game Management Advisory Group if memory serves me correctly.

Do you know who all that comprises off??

sheephunter

12-23-2011, 01:59 PM

Do you know who all that comprises off??

Post 66 in this thread.

Alberta Bowhunters Association
Alberta Fish & Game Association
Hunting For Tomorrow
Alberta Professional Outfitters Society
SRD (Game Management & Enforcement)
Tourism & Parks
Pheasants Forever
Wild Sheep Foundation (Alberta)
Alberta Association of Municipal Districts & Counties
Alberta Beef Producers
Alberta Chapter of the Wildlife Society
Delta Waterfowl Foundation
Ducks Unlimited Canada

Justin.C

12-23-2011, 01:59 PM

According to SRD the draw suggestion came from stakeholders in AGMAG, SRD is just the one that put the info together on what a draw would like like....through rose coloured glasses! The stakeholder= APOS.

I just have a hard time believing any real group would proper this crap.

Huntnut

12-23-2011, 02:10 PM

Post 66 in this thread.

Alberta Bowhunters Association
Alberta Fish & Game Association
Hunting For Tomorrow
Alberta Professional Outfitters Society
SRD (Game Management & Enforcement)
Tourism & Parks
Pheasants Forever
Wild Sheep Foundation (Alberta)
Alberta Association of Municipal Districts & Counties
Alberta Beef Producers
Alberta Chapter of the Wildlife Society
Delta Waterfowl Foundation
Ducks Unlimited Canada

So who has the SRD by the short and curlies???

Last time this came up I emailed alot of people and they all said one zone was slightly below what they would like for legal rams but all the rest they were happy with. So WTF has happened since then???

Wrongside

12-23-2011, 02:55 PM

Isn't it great that there is a proposal so the Outfitters/ Non Resident Aliens don't lose any opportunity on Trophy Sheep, yet being bantered to fix the "problem" is longer sit out's, and all resident sheep tags going on draw.

Adding insult to injury the concession that is being looked at for outfitters would put even more pressure on sheep, opening up a resident only area to non-residents.

This is seriously flawed logic, outrageous!

x2

Residents first should only make sense.

MountainTi

12-23-2011, 04:34 PM

I know that one of the many proposals/ideas they are looking at is outfitter tags south of the Bow. They want to take some pressure off the West Central areas, and this, they believe, may help. I'm also told that outfitter allotment reductions are NOT an option. The Gov't can't afford to buy them out at market value and there would apparently be 'serious legal issues' if they were reduced in any other way.

The sheep outfitters with tags in the zones on the psssible draw list already know if it comes down to a draw, they are more than likely going to lose tags. How they will do it I'm not sure, most likely a trade of areas or swap for another type of allotment.

Justin.C

12-23-2011, 04:43 PM

The sheep outfitters with tags in the zones on the psssible draw list already know if it comes down to a draw, they are more than likely going to lose tags. How they will do it I'm not sure, most likely a trade of areas or swap for another type of allotment.

But if these is not enough for us why should anybody from somewhere else be aloud to hunt them. They are the biggest problem. Sorry I will change that. They are the ones killing % wise the most

Rocks

12-23-2011, 06:44 PM

Is there a place to find sheep pop. numbers, licence numbers and harvest numbers? I'm looking but can't find anything so far, SRD has a 1993 sheep management plan on their website (is that the latest??), and the latest sheep pop. number I could find was 11000+ for 2007. I think the yearly resident harvest averages 150-200?

Acesneights

12-23-2011, 07:08 PM

Personally I believe there is nothing wrong with th sheep population in k country however go up north where there are outfitters who get paid to kill sheep and you will have a very very hard time finding a decent ram, majority are all sqeakers.Then this season I was talking to a guy I met who guides for an outfitter around the highway 40 area and he said every ram they got was under an inch legal.So my opinion is to cut down on selling out.

whitetail Junkie

12-23-2011, 07:08 PM

The sheep outfitters with tags in the zones on the psssible draw list already know if it comes down to a draw, they are more than likely going to lose tags. How they will do it I'm not sure, most likely a trade of areas or swap for another type of allotment.

Just like when the CWD started in some of the prairie wmu's...SRD Allowed outfitters who had muledeer buck allocations in the affected cwd wmu's to Transfer there tags to other wmu's that didnt have the CWD hunting.

I hate APOS...:mad0100:

ksteed17

12-23-2011, 07:56 PM

Acesneights

12-23-2011, 08:25 PM

Why and how are they able to Harvest illegal rams??

Umm I think you misunderstood under one inch legal would be the measurement between a ram that is legal and one inch past legal.maybe I should've explained better.basically any ram they shot was legal but barely

woods_walker

12-24-2011, 01:15 AM

Thanks for that clarification bdarling on the under an inch legal comment. I at first thought the same thing that they harvested illegal rams.

I know I have never applied for any of the current sheep draws that are currently out there, but I know if it does come up as a province wide draw that I will add my name to the list. I don't think I am the only one like that, so I would have to agree that the number of draw applicants will increase significantly beyond what it currently is.

ram crazy

12-24-2011, 09:44 AM

That was poor wording, as most guys thought the same. Glad you cleared that up.

northernwhitey1

12-24-2011, 12:11 PM

are they changing the regulations because some areas have low ram populations?

If they are low in some areas, why dont they transplant rams from areas like cadimon. I have heard that there was 30 or 40 mature rams that died from winter kill.

sheephunter

12-24-2011, 12:16 PM

walking buffalo

12-24-2011, 12:41 PM

Broken promises from SRD that they would release the data to the Public before making any decisions.... :mad2:

Smell the coffee Boys!

There are alterior motives to these proposed changes beyond helping get the mature ram pop. over 5% in the few WMU's that had low counts.

If SRD and the AGMAG interests cared to maintain Public hunting opportunity and help reduce Ram harvest, the answer is simple, too simple to achieve what they really want.

In those WMU's with a low Mature ram count, increase the legal requirement to full curl until the winter count reaches the 5% threshold. When the threshold is met, the legal requirement returns to 4/5 curl.

While this technique would work for the Ram % issue, it doesn't satisfy what is really being sought.

justinO

12-24-2011, 01:01 PM

They should open up the sheep season. Give 3 ewe tags to anyone who wants a tag. The goal is to kill every animal in Alberta right. :thinking-006:
And don't worry about non residents a few more hunting season like this they will not be coming here anymore.

Frans

12-24-2011, 01:04 PM

I got a "don't worry, we are only exploring ideas and will consult stakeholders" email back, from Ron Blorge, and a "no changes for 2012". He didn't address any of the issues raised. Somehow that doesn't put my mind at ease.

LongDraw

12-24-2011, 01:11 PM

Justin.C

12-24-2011, 02:01 PM

What are the alterior motives and what is really being sought in your opinion?

I would bet it is to make better rams for the outfitters... Even though a draw is not going to put more rams on the mountain as really after a 10 year wait the first legal ram seen will be shot.... So the only thing other than outfitters is just to control hunters....:rolleye2:

sheephunter

12-26-2011, 12:19 PM

steve

12-26-2011, 12:31 PM

Would outfitter tags be decreased if it went to a draw? Has SRD said anything reguarding outfitter tag numbers being decreased if res opportunity decreases?

spurly

12-26-2011, 12:51 PM

sheephunter

12-26-2011, 01:01 PM

Would outfitter tags be decreased if it went to a draw? Has SRD said anything reguarding outfitter tag numbers being decreased if res opportunity decreases?

Nothing concrete but no plans to reduce them from what I've been told.

steve

12-26-2011, 01:06 PM

Nothing concrete but no plans to reduce them from what I've been told.

Sheep outfitters must be praying it goes to draw...

sheephunter

12-26-2011, 01:16 PM

Sheep outfitters must be praying it goes to draw...

Of the three options, it's certainly the best case scenario for outfitters.

walking buffalo

12-26-2011, 01:26 PM

What are the alterior motives and what is really being sought in your opinion?

Not really sure I'd say there are alterior motives at work but there is no doubt in my mind that there are many sheep hunters that would like an opportunity to hunt bigger sheep and they look south to Montana and their draw system. I think F&W likes the idea of a draw as it's the easiest to manage and I think they are trying to sell the idea with their very optimistic tale of 1-2 year wait times. Make no mistake, this is an outright sales job by F&W and it seems some of the stakeholders are buying into it. Obviously outfitters would be the biggest benificary. Not sure they are driving it but I can sure see them supporting it.

Look at the stakeholders.

I think SH has SRD correct, they seem to be on a drive to put ALL Big Game hunting on Draw.

APOS- That's obvious.

Parks and Rec. They want hunting out of the mountains and Wildlands. Y2Y is part of this picture.

The upcoming Public Land Public Access Plan in conjunction with the Grizzly Bear Recovery Plan both desire to severely restrict access in many areas. A part of the technique is to limit hunting through limiting licences to Draw only.

sheephunter

12-26-2011, 01:30 PM

Parks and Rec. They want hunting out of the mountains and Wildlands. Y2Y is part of this picture.

.

It's definitely a lot easier to kick half as many people out. A classic example of systematically dividing and conquering.

ishootbambi

12-26-2011, 01:33 PM

Of the three options, it's certainly the best case scenario for outfitters.

not if the south changes some zones to draw while the north remains general. outfitters would gain nothing but possibly more resident competition. that aint all bad....more residents killing those sheep instead of shipping them out.

sheephunter

12-26-2011, 01:42 PM

not if the south changes some zones to draw while the north remains general. outfitters would gain nothing but possibly more resident competition. that aint all bad....more residents killing those sheep instead of shipping them out.

I take it you are being sarcastic....;)

The only scenario that offers total gain and no potential loss for outfitters is the province wide draw....assuming their tags will not be reduced that is.

Justin.C

12-26-2011, 02:02 PM

I take it you are being sarcastic....;)

The only scenario that offers total gain and no potential loss for outfitters is the province wide draw....assuming their tags will not be reduced that is.
But if a province wide draw manages to happen then all outfitters should be payed out a pecentage of the tag for a couple years and disolve them... I for one dont see why we should have to pay outfitters anything.. Accourding to our bs gov we need a change.. The first change should be to say bye bye to outfitters and non residents tags.... Then if that dont work then change our system... till non resident are not aloud screw the government and there bs change......

ishootbambi

12-26-2011, 02:19 PM

I take it you are being sarcastic....;)

The only scenario that offers total gain and no potential loss for outfitters is the province wide draw....assuming their tags will not be reduced that is.

only half sarcastic. what i said is true though. if the south zones go to draw, then some more resident hunters will go north assuming they are left general. some more of those residents would take the legal rams available there, rather than so many going to outfitters. no way would they support that scenario. province wide draw they would love though.....i dont see that happening.

actually, its what i thought would be the best change. those genetically superior southern sheep could grow up....residents drawn would have a better quality sheep hunt, and most of the province would remain open to those who want to hunt every year. the only loser in that is the resident in the south who would have to travel a little farther......guys like me.

sheephunter

12-26-2011, 03:38 PM

To the best of my knowledge. the outfitter tags are lifetime allocations, that cannot be taken away, without compensation. they own these tags, and can sell or lease the rights to them, but they cannot have them taken away.they may, open up new zones to outfitters, if they are willing to transfer their tags to a new zone.

I'm not sure if that's the case or not spurly but if it is, maybe it's time the Government addressed a system that does not allow for management. If that means buying those tags back for market value...so be it. Let's get out of this disaster before it gets worse!

Justin.C

12-26-2011, 03:48 PM

I'm not sure if that's the case or not spurly but if it is, maybe it's time the Government addressed a system that does not allow for management. If that means buying those tags back for market value...so be it. Let's get out of this disaster before it gets worse!

I agree 100%

steve

12-26-2011, 03:58 PM

In another thread it was stated that allocations are owned by the crown and come with conditions.

sheephunter

12-26-2011, 04:00 PM

In another thread it was stated that allocations are owned by the crown and come with conditions.

That's what I always thought too but either way, when populations warrant resident tags or opportunity being cut, the system has to allow for the same with non-resident tags.

steve

12-26-2011, 04:02 PM

That's what I always thought too but either way, when populations warrant resident tags or opportunity being cut, the system has to allow for the same with non-resident tags.

I hate to say it.... But I fully agree with you :lol:

Pathfinder76

12-26-2011, 04:07 PM

That's what I always thought too but either way, when populations warrant resident tags or opportunity being cut, the system has to allow for the same with non-resident tags.

Yes it does and I totally agree, but it will NEVER happen.

On another note, SRD is the main drive behind these changes and push for draw and as you can see by their numbers they will do anything they can to succeed at it.

mad mountain mike

12-26-2011, 04:07 PM

That's what I always thought too but either way, when populations warrant resident tags or opportunity being cut, the system has to allow for the same with non-resident tags.

Maybe in a just world, but so far I have heard no talk of outfitter allocations being reduced.

sheephunter

12-26-2011, 04:11 PM

Maybe in a just world, but so far I have heard no talk of outfitter allocations being reduced.

Me neither while SRD attempted to answer a lot of my questions, that was one they seem to have overlooked.

drake

12-26-2011, 04:28 PM

We as hunters are going to have to stay informed and do everything in our power to lobby against changes that unfairly impact resident opportunity. I would love to see sheep numbers and quality improve but I don't think the recommended changes were created to address these issues. It sounds like there is a group/groups out there who have some political muscle and have motives that aren't in the best interest of average alberta sheep hunters. Thanks to everybody on this thread for their thoughtful contributions.

sheephunter

12-26-2011, 04:37 PM

But if a province wide draw manages to happen then all outfitters should be payed out a pecentage of the tag for a couple years and disolve them... I for one dont see why we should have to pay outfitters anything.. Accourding to our bs gov we need a change.. The first change should be to say bye bye to outfitters and non residents tags.... Then if that dont work then change our system... till non resident are not aloud screw the government and there bs change......

Personally I'd hate to see all outfitter tags gone and I know that's another issue but I think they are valuable to hunting in Alberta beyond the monetary contributions but I also believe that if residents lose opportunity that's it's only fair that non residents lose the same percentage as well.

mad mountain mike

12-26-2011, 04:37 PM

sheephunter

12-26-2011, 04:49 PM

I don't know how individuals can lobby Drake. Sheep hunters are fairly passionate about their sport, and I am sure that by now most of us have already written atleast one letter but beyond writing letters and talking to people i am not sure what else to do. A group of individuals fighting against organized groups is an up hill battle to say the least(hense the grizzly hunt).:angry3:

It can get frustrating but look at the flip flop the government did on extending the Minister's Special Licence season due to pressure from individuals. Your voice matters. Also make sure the groups you belong to that are part of AGMAG are representing your voice. We lose some and it's easy to dwell on them but we win a lot.....

Pathfinder76

12-26-2011, 04:52 PM

It can get frustrating but look at the flip flop the government did on extending the Minister's Special Licence season due to pressure from individuals. Your voice matters. Also make sure the groups you belong to that are part of AGMAG are representing your voice. We lose some and it's easy to dwell on them but we win a lot.....

That's because what they did there was illegal. They got caught with their pants around their ankles. They had absolutely no choice.

Justin.C

12-26-2011, 04:52 PM

Personally I'd hate to see all outfitter tags gone and I know that's another issue but I think they are valuable to hunting in Alberta beyond the monetary contributions but I also believe that if residents lose opportunity that's it's only fair that non residents lose the same percentage as well.

Well I am if we get this draw. Like stated a million time anybody non resident can pay to have a tag every year on anything other than a sheep as they have to wait the same as us. Sorry that has never been rite. I don't care if it is an antelope or a sheep or even a muledeer. They should have to wait like we do. Period. And I think a longer wait. Or a once in a life. Sorry to all outfitter but I don't agree how we have to wait and $$$$ changes it for them.

sheephunter

12-26-2011, 04:53 PM

That's because what they did there was illegal. They got caught with their pants around their ankles. They had absolutely no choice.

Show me where it was illegal. Public pressure spoke...period! Take it as a victory.

Pathfinder76

12-26-2011, 04:55 PM

Show me where it was illegal.

Employees of SRD CANNOT alter a season at their whim. It is not within their legal right to do so. The minister is the only one that can do that and it is clear in this case that he did not.

mad mountain mike

12-26-2011, 04:57 PM

Well I am if we get this draw. Like stated a million time anybody non resident can pay to have a tag every year on anything other than a sheep as they have to wait the same as us. Sorry that has never been rite. I don't care if it is an antelope or a sheep or even a muledeer. They should have to wait like we do. Period. And I think a longer wait. Or a once in a life. Sorry to all outfitter but I don't agree how we have to wait and $$$$ changes it for them.

I like the system some states have where you have to draw a tag first then go looking for an outfitter, the outfitters are not king of the tags.

sheephunter

12-26-2011, 04:57 PM

Employees of SRD CANNOT alter a season at their whim. It is not within their legal right to do so. The minister is the only one that can do that and it is clear in this case that he did not.

He likely would have rubber stamped it though...without the letters he received from individual Alberta hunters. Again, hold your head up, it was a good day for democracy. It occasionally works.

Pathfinder76

12-26-2011, 04:58 PM

Show me where it was illegal. Public pressure spoke...period! Take it as a victory.

Remove your head from the sand. Seriously. These are in no way shape or form the same thing. This is a MUCH bigger fight and it will take a much bigger hammer to crush.

sheephunter

12-26-2011, 05:01 PM

Remove your head from the sand. Seriously. These are in no way shape or form the same thing. This is a MUCH bigger fight and it will take a much bigger hammer to crush.

Yup, I agree...we need a lot more voices. Either that or we just throw our arms in the air and take what we are given. I'd rather go down with a fight. I seem to remember a little fight in southern Alberta called RAMP that began as Open Spaces......I guess everyone could have said nothing and taken that one too. Seriously chuck, you need to quit being so negative. Feel free to sit around and do nothing and mock those that speak up...it's really helping a lot more than those that are speaking up :thinking-006:

Justin.C

12-26-2011, 05:31 PM

I like the system some states have where you have to draw a tag first then go looking for an outfitter, the outfitters are not king of the tags.that is how it should have been from day one...

Pathfinder76

12-26-2011, 05:59 PM

Yup, I agree...we need a lot more voices. Either that or we just throw our arms in the air and take what we are given. I'd rather go down with a fight. I seem to remember a little fight in southern Alberta called RAMP that began as Open Spaces......I guess everyone could have said nothing and taken that one too. Seriously chuck, you need to quit being so negative. Feel free to sit around and do nothing and mock those that speak up...it's really helping a lot more than those that are speaking up :thinking-006:

Your memory is short. I believe I was one of the first ones that came here kicking and screaming about RAMP and you sir told me I should get my facts straight and quit jumping to conclusions. That was after I had spent considerable time on the phone to the minister, SRD and many others. To this day I cannot bring myself to forgive you for that. DO NOT tell me I'm sitting on my hands.

Now I'm seeing red.

sheephunter

12-26-2011, 06:06 PM

Your memory is short. I believe I was one of the first ones that came here kicking and screaming about RAMP and you sir told me I should get my facts straight and quit jumping to conclusions. That was after I had spent considerable time on the phone to the minister, SRD and many others. To this day I cannot bring myself to forgive you for that. DO NOT tell me I'm sitting on my hands.

Now I'm seeing red.

Nope, I actually have a pretty good memory for an old guy. Actually I'd give you the same advice again :) It likely would have saved a lot of pointless fighting among ourselves.

No sense in fighting rumour and speculation. So far I've got my facts straight on this one and I see enough to be concerned about. Truthfully, I'm not fighting anything right now, just gathering some facts and hoping others do the same so if there is a fight to be waged it can be done based on those facts. You do harbour a grudge a long time :) My point was that individual voices can make difference and thanks for confirming that and pointing out how important it is to indeed have the facts.

walking buffalo

12-26-2011, 06:18 PM

My Cut and Paste skill are on Fire! Just for the "special" boys on the board. :sHa_sarcasticlol:

In another thread it was stated that allocations are owned by the crown and come with conditions.

In another thread it was stated that allocations are owned by the crown and come with conditions.

And I thought so too.

However, a 2009 Court decision may have changed that.

Court of Queen’s Bench of Alberta
Citation: Stout & Company LLP v. Chez Outdoors Ltd., 2009 ABQB 444http://www.albertacourts.ab.ca/jdb%5C2003-%5Cqb%5Ccivil%5C2009%5C2009abqb0444.pdf

The Minister does have the abilty to increase the Outfitter Trophy Sheep Allocation price paid to the Province up from the present $225.00. ;)

Look at the stakeholders.

I think SH has SRD correct, they seem to be on a drive to put ALL Big Game hunting on Draw.

APOS- That's obvious.

Parks and Rec. They want hunting out of the mountains and Wildlands. Y2Y is part of this picture.

The upcoming Public Land Public Access Plan in conjunction with the Grizzly Bear Recovery Plan both desire to severely restrict access in many areas. A part of the technique is to limit hunting through limiting licences to Draw only.

It's definitely a lot easier to kick half as many people out. A classic example of systematically dividing and conquering.

We are focused Too much here on the Outfitters. Parks wants hunting out of the mountains. The proposed 402 Elk draw fits the mold.

The Alberta Chapter of the Wildlife Society IS pro-hunting as a management tool when the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. Perhaps they could be a strong ally at AGMAG in dealing with Parks and the Outfitters.

A recently released Position Statement by the International Wildlife Society on Hunting.

http://joomla.wildlife.org/documents/positionstatements/07-Hunting.pdf The policy of The Wildlife Society in regard to hunting is to:

1. Endorse the principle that hunting, when properly regulated following biological principles, is an appropriate means of managing wildlife populations.

2. Encourage decision makers to weigh the biological, societal, cultural, and economic considerations when making decisions on hunting and the welfare of wildlife.

3. Encourage hunter education programs that allow hunters to increase their knowledge of wildlife ecology and management and to emphasize hunter ethics and responsibilities.

4. Support greater education of the public about the biological, ecological, cultural, and economic necessity of regulated hunting to the conservation and integrity of natural resources.

5. Support access management that provides for appropriate opportunities for hunting and other compatible uses in a manner consistent with the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation.

Approved by Council March 2010. Expires March 2015.

Pathfinder76

12-26-2011, 06:34 PM

Nope, I actually have a pretty good memory for an old guy. Actually I'd give you the same advice again :) It likely would have saved a lot of pointless fighting among ourselves.

No sense in fighting rumour and speculation. So far I've got my facts straight on this one and I see enough to be concerned about. Truthfully, I'm not fighting anything right now, just gathering some facts and hoping others do the same so if there is a fight to be waged it can be done based on those facts. You do harbour a grudge a long time :) My point was that individual voices can make difference and thanks for confirming that and pointing out how important it is to indeed have the facts.

Yep that's you.

I've been telling people this has been coming for years and have spoken with Jim Allen about it, at length, at least two years ago. Welcome aboard. As usual you're a day late and a dollar short but you'll have your ducks in a row just in time to see it a reality. Congratulations. SRD and their inability or complete refusal to think outside the box have been running this issue into a corner for a long time. The tragedy? They won't run out of funding for this one.

walking buffalo

12-26-2011, 07:02 PM

I've been telling people this has been coming for years and have spoken with Jim Allen about it, at length, at least two years ago. Welcome aboard. As usual you're a day late and a dollar short but you'll have your ducks in a row just in time to see it a reality. Congratulations. SRD and their inability or complete refusal to think outside the box have been running this issue into a corner for a long time. The tragedy? They won't run out of funding for this one.

My own conversations with F&W Bio's last year now seem like LIES!

Last April, I was told that only a couple of WMU's were of concern for a slight under-representation of Mature Rams. These few WMU's and the Willmore were on the radar for consideration to go on Draw. The Willmore was being considered for a sheep draw NOT because of any conservation concern, but because simply due to pressure from some interest groups to reduce the number of Resident hunters there.

One year later, the Promised Data has not been released to the Public, and there is talk of putting the whole Province on Draw....

My opinion of our F&W heads is dropping fast.... :mad:

Justin.C

12-26-2011, 07:17 PM

My own conversations with F&W Bio's last year now seem like LIES!

Last April, I was told that only a couple of WMU's were of concern for a slight under-representation of Mature Rams. These few WMU's and the Willmore were on the radar for consideration to go on Draw. The Willmore was being considered for a sheep draw NOT because of any conservation concern, but because simply due to pressure from some interest groups to reduce the number of Resident hunters there.

One year later, the Promised Data has not been released to the Public, and there is talk of putting the whole Province on Draw....

My opinion of our F&W heads is dropping fast.... :mad:
You are starting to see why I hate them already.... The only do what is best for certain groups... Alberta resident are not one of them. Hell I dont think our wildlife even ranks in the tops 10....

Pathfinder76

12-26-2011, 07:40 PM

My own conversations with F&W Bio's last year now seem like LIES!

Last April, I was told that only a couple of WMU's were of concern for a slight under-representation of Mature Rams. These few WMU's and the Willmore were on the radar for consideration to go on Draw. The Willmore was being considered for a sheep draw NOT because of any conservation concern, but because simply due to pressure from some interest groups to reduce the number of Resident hunters there.

One year later, the Promised Data has not been released to the Public, and there is talk of putting the whole Province on Draw....

My opinion of our F&W heads is dropping fast.... :mad:

F&W enforcement is pushing this HARD and they have been for some time. Biologists included.

Justin.C

12-26-2011, 07:50 PM

F&W enforcement is pushing this HARD and they have been for some time. Biologists included.Ya and it makes no sence as a draw I garentee if you draw the first legal will get shot as it will be another 10+ years to do it again..... the young ones still die........ period...

That is what will happen. so why put on a draw????? to me it is a keep mre resident out of the mountains to give outfitters les comp.....:angry3:

Pathfinder76

12-26-2011, 08:37 PM

Ya and it makes no sence as a draw I garentee if you draw the first legal will get shot as it will be another 10+ years to do it again..... the young ones still die........ period...

That is what will happen. so why put on a draw????? to me it is a keep mre resident out of the mountains to give outfitters les comp.....:angry3:

Because it is easy.

Justin.C

12-26-2011, 09:15 PM

Because it is easy.

so is no non residents......

Really leaving it as is is the easiest. There is going to be a major uproar if they do what TJ is telling us... I have no respect already for these nimrods as our province is the most mismanaged it has ever been....

Pathfinder76

12-26-2011, 09:22 PM

so is no non residents......

If you call dishing out MILLIONS of tax payer dollars easy then yes.

Rackmastr

12-26-2011, 09:24 PM

so is no non residents......

Really leaving it as is is the easiest. There is going to be a major uproar if they do what TJ is telling us... I have no respect already for these nimrods as our province is the most mismanaged it has ever been....

What responses have you got so far from people regarding the proposed changes? Any responses about your concerns with outfitters? I'd be interested to hear what some of the groups, SRD, etc have to say about the concerns that you've brought up here...

Justin.C

12-26-2011, 09:24 PM

If you call dishing out MILLIONS of tax payer dollars easy then yes.What do you mean chuck??? I am sorry I dont understand..

Pathfinder76

12-26-2011, 09:26 PM

What do you mean chuck??? I am sorry I dont understand..

Somebody has to buy back outfitter allocations. And they aint cheap.

Justin.C

12-26-2011, 09:27 PM

What responses have you got so far from people regarding the proposed changes? Any responses about your concerns with outfitters? I'd be interested to hear what some of the groups, SRD, etc have to say about the concerns that you've brought up here...
I have not spoke to anybody as of yet..I will post aafter I talk to someone....

Pathfinder76

12-26-2011, 09:27 PM

Really leaving it as is is the easiest.

Not for enforcement it isn't.

Justin.C

12-26-2011, 09:28 PM

Somebody has to buy back outfitter allocations. And they aint cheap.
from what i have herd they are going pretty cheap rite now... I cant remember the $$$ amount sheepguide said his buddy payed for his...

Justin.C

12-26-2011, 09:30 PM

Not for enforcement it isn't.why is that??? They still have to be out making sure all is good.. They will be out checking on resident deer,elk,and moose hunters too.... I still dont see....

Rackmastr

12-26-2011, 09:31 PM

I have nothing against outfitters... I just see we as Albertans getting stuck on a draw do to a supposably low ram numbers... I dont see why nonresident get cut out first.. What are you talking about what I brought up???

I meant the concerns with the sheep changes and with the ideas of cancelling or reducing all non-resident tags. I'm curious what the responses have been from people with the concerns that have been brought up here. As you had commented on the non-residents and outfitters in several threads, I just was curious what SRD, groups, etc had responded when challenged or questioned about it.

Pathfinder76

12-26-2011, 09:35 PM

from what i have herd they are going pretty cheap rite now... I cant remember the $$$ amount sheepguide said his buddy payed for his...

They are not cheap. It WILL cost Millions to buy them back.

Pathfinder76

12-26-2011, 09:36 PM

why is that??? They still have to be out making sure all is good.. They will be out checking on resident deer,elk,and moose hunters too.... I still dont see....

Dealing with Rams is one of THE biggest headaches for SRD offices in close proximity to sheep. Putting them on draw the way they want it will decrease that headache 10 fold. At least.

Justin.C

12-26-2011, 09:37 PM

I meant the concerns with the sheep changes and with the ideas of cancelling or reducing all non-resident tags. I'm curious what the responses have been from people with the concerns that have been brought up here. As you had commented on the non-residents and outfitters in several threads, I just was curious what SRD, groups, etc had responded when challenged or questioned about it.Rack... You really think anything is going to be done in that manner??? I dont think that will ever change even if we all want it..... I for one just have a real hard time with more stuff getting taken away in Alberta..... I will do what you are doing ..... Getting out of hear... On the bigger and better across the border..

Justin.C

12-26-2011, 09:38 PM

Dealing with Rams is one of THE biggest headaches for SRD offices in close proximity to sheep. Putting them on draw the way they want it will decrease that headache 10 fold. At least.
I did not know that... Why is that??? All i see is extra gas charges....

Rackmastr

12-26-2011, 09:40 PM

Rack... You really think anything is going to be done in that manner??? I dont think that will ever change even if we all want it..... I for one just have a real hard time with more stuff getting taken away in Alberta..... I will do what you are doing ..... Getting out of hear... On the bigger and better across the border..

I have no idea if it will change or not, I just hadnt seen anyone post responses from SRD or groups with the concerns, and I was curious. I'm guilty of not sending any letters as I've had a lot on my plate, so was hoping that someone who seemed to be quite involved had some info to share.

But ya...sheep allocations are not cheap at all. Right now there are 4 advertised at $450,000. Thats an advertised price, but man oh man they hold a TON of value for some areas and zones...

Justin.C

12-26-2011, 09:42 PM

I have no idea if it will change or not, I just hadnt seen anyone post responses from SRD or groups with the concerns, and I was curious. I'm guilty of not sending any letters as I've had a lot on my plate, so was hoping that someone who seemed to be quite involved had some info to share.

But ya...sheep allocations are not cheap at all. Right now there are 4 advertised at $450,000. Thats an advertised price, but man oh man they hold a TON of value for some areas and zones...I will post when I hear more...:)

Pathfinder76

12-26-2011, 09:46 PM

I did not know that... Why is that??? All i see is extra gas charges....

It all has to do with management of what is legal and what isn't.

Rocks

12-26-2011, 10:57 PM

ram crazy

12-26-2011, 11:23 PM

Sounds like there is some pressure to decrease resident hunter access. Most of the proposals will do nothing to decrease harvest, other than increasing 4/5ths zones to full curl. I actually wouldn't mind that one, yes I know some rams never make full, but it wouldn't hurt to have a few of the oldtimers live, and I think it would definitely increase horn size in said zones.

By changing to full curl, some zones will never produce full curl sheep as the genetics just aren't there. So I don't think you would increase horn size one bit in these zones that may never produce a full curl. Now you'd be putting more pressure on the zones that would produce full curls.

Rocks

12-26-2011, 11:31 PM

Which zones will never produce a full curl?

steve

12-27-2011, 12:09 AM

I found 4 allocations in 445 for sale for 450k recently. No gear or tack.

Rocks

12-27-2011, 12:19 AM

There was also 4 for sale at Cadomin for 500k, and of course McMahons is up for 1.2M with 8 sheep, some elk, deer, bear and a moose with a bunch of gear and horses.

mjs

12-27-2011, 03:02 AM

After reading this post if feel that the worst enemy to our sheep population is both access and the popularity of sheep hunting in the past couple of decades.

Talking to a lot of the old boys (before all of the roads such as the shell road down south and other forestry roads) there was way better hunting because of less pressure. It is inevitable that sheep hunting is more accessible now (for example drive down highway 40 and spot a legal ram). Something has to be changed. Plain and simple more sheep are being shot in alberta than ever. Because it is a "trophy animal" there is a lot of hype and bragging that surrounds it.

To me the biggest thing that has to change is the mentality that comes with sheep hunting. The best sheep hunters I know, are the people that genuinely love to sheep hunt, and have two or three sheep on their wall and will never shoot one again. For them they have accomplished to get a "trophy sheep" and just enjoy sheep hunting. They now just like always enjoy being out in the mountains and seeing sheep or helping a first time sheep hunter or kid trying to get his first sheep.

To me sheep hunting and (hunting in general) has become to big of a competition, and some people want to shoot a sheep to say they have done it or try to prove to other people that they are some great hunter and feel the need to be idolized. It should be a personal thing, and there is to much jealously. I idolize the real sheep hunters that love and respect sheep.

I do believe however that something should and will be done in some zones to protect our alberta sheep, but some zones have and continually produce healthily sheep populations. It will never again be like the good old days, but we should look at the future of sheep hunting in general. I thing the age solution could be a great idea to try and build a mature ram population and reward those that pass on a just legal ram. It should be treated like a trophy deer. Many people that want to shoot a mule deer for example will pass on a young deer in hopes it will grow up and become a mature trophy.

I also believe that the waiting period between sheep is a great idea. If some one is in need of meat you can get all sorts of tags in alberta to fill the freezer. Because I think it is a trophy animal I think that it should not matter if you got a sheep or not, but the quality of the hunt you are on. On some previous threads and posts about sheep hunting individuals have mentioned people with a many bunch of rams on the wall that reminded the of each hunt. I don't think that it should be dependant on the success of the hunt but the time spent in the mountains with great people.

We have to protect the sheep.

I know many albertans will disagree with and despise outfitters which is understandable, but i believe that targeting all of them and apos as a group is not the right move. I do believe that there should be no scams. As sad as it is our world revolves around money and our province needs the money brought in from non-residents to keep hunting going. With all of the groups trying to stop or slow down hunting these organizations will help keep hunting going for Albertans in the future.

I also have been on some guided hunts out of province and around the world just to experience different kind of hunts. I think that as albertans we should protect our sheep for our selves, but also share the opportunity with others.

I mostly read this forum and dont post too often. One thing I have noticed is how people get targeted and "ganged up on" if they disagree with others. I suspect some jealously in their thoughts.

This is just my opinion, you can agree or disagree, that is your opinion.

steve

12-27-2011, 05:31 AM

http://www.mccowans.com/listings/Alberta

ram crazy

12-27-2011, 06:45 AM

mjs do you know how hard it is to kill a sheep. It sounds like you have never killed a Ram and are jealous of those who have figured out sheep hunting. If someone wants to kill more than a couple sheep that is there right. As for more sheep being killed nowadays that isn't true either as there are still roughly the same numbers being killed as in the past. Nobody has said that the sheep populations aren't health and i do believe that these are the good old days of sheep hunting right now, because everybody that hunts in this great province has the right to sheep hunt and try and kill a Ram. Putting it on a draw takes that right away and limits your chances. A draw won't get you bigger sheep, because it now puts more pressure on the hunter with the tag to kill a Ram, so you will kill the first legal Ram you see because you just don't know how long it will take to pull that tag next.

ishootbambi

12-27-2011, 10:32 AM

Talking to a lot of the old boys (before all of the roads such as the shell road down south and other forestry roads) there was way better hunting because of less pressure. It is inevitable that sheep hunting is more accessible now (for example drive down highway 40 and spot a legal ram). Something has to be changed. Plain and simple more sheep are being shot in alberta than ever. .

you can have any opinion you like.....but the statement quoted is false. the numbers are pretty clear and have been presented many times. there were more sheep hunters back in the 80s and thats also when ram harvest hit its peak. statistically, hunter success has remained quite constant.

there are actually less people hunting sheep today than there was 30 years ago. access has also proven to have no effect. areas that once were off limits to atvs that have been opened up showed no increase in success. the arithmetic is pretty simple.....there are only so many legal rams in this province. that will always be the limiting factor. the strip of mountains along western alberta is just too thin. there is not that much suitable habitat. changing what is available is the only way to improve things. the argument is what change is best.

back to the show......

Rocks

12-27-2011, 11:15 AM

Do you have the numbers ISB?

Here's what I can find up to 1989:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/Rocks5E/chart.png

ishootbambi

12-27-2011, 11:32 AM

Do you have the numbers ISB?

Here's what I can find up to 1989:

]

i never posted the numbers....but others have in these sheep discussions over the last 2 years.

long term average seemed to be around 150 or so rams per year. the percentage of non res rams is one thing that rubs me wrong. i do believe that we should be sharing the wealth, but in my opinion the non res harvest is too high. seems to me that about 10% of the harvest is a good number to send out. that would mean about 15 rams. given the long term average of around 50% success for outfitters, i think non res tags oughta be around 30.

that would be a good start to appeasing residents, and making things a little more palatable on that end. as for the answer to improve hunting for residents....lots of ideas, and lots of guys that hate every single one of them. id bet about the same number that hate the stauts quo.

walking buffalo

12-27-2011, 04:09 PM

Do you have the numbers ISB?

Here's what I can find up to 1989:

The numbers for Licenced hunters and Resident/Outfitter Rams harvested from '61-'07 are in here.

http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/NWSGC-2008/AlbertaStatus_Report_NWSGC_Final_2008%20alberta.pd f

Since Licenced harvest is remaining stable, and the overall sheep population is stable, why are some areas experiencing a shortfall of mature rams?

Predators, Poachers and Treaty harvest MUST be responsible in part for the Missing Rams.

Not much can be done about Treaty Harvest. But SRD sure could put some effort into a Predator and Poacher Cull.

A question to SRD....Assuming a Resident draw is established in WMU's of concern.

What will you propose next if restricting Licenced Resident hunters does not achieve the results desired in the Ram population? Will you limit Residents further while doing little regarding Predators and Poachers?

Justin.C

12-27-2011, 04:58 PM

I think predators are a major key in those areas. We need to put a bounty on wolves aand maybe cougars in certain areas. That would help on the real problem. I do not think this is much placing with sheep. And native kills I am not going there. The numbers for Licenced hunters and Resident/Outfitter Rams harvested from '61-'07 are in here.

http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/NWSGC-2008/AlbertaStatus_Report_NWSGC_Final_2008%20alberta.pd f

Since Licenced harvest is remaining stable, and the overall sheep population is stable, why are some areas experiencing a shortfall of mature rams?

Predators, Poachers and Treaty harvest MUST be responsible in part for the Missing Rams.

Not much can be done about Treaty Harvest. But SRD sure could put some effort into a Predator and Poacher Cull.

A question to SRD....Assuming a Resident draw is established in WMU's of concern.

What will you propose next if restricting Licenced Resident hunters does not achieve the results desired in the Ram population? Will you limit Residents further while doing little regarding Predators and Poachers?

ram crazy

12-27-2011, 05:50 PM

Justin.C

12-27-2011, 06:02 PM

Go figure, in all the transplanting that has been done only six different times have they move Sheep around inside of alberta and the majority have been transplanted in the States. Now if SRD was so worried about the health of sheep in this great province, why aren't they moving more sheep around Alberta, or are they more concerned about helping out the States, and who pays to move the sheep to the States.I agree on this one... Also why do we not have badland sheep like Montana did???? we would have a great herd there as well if we did that and they would stay in Alberta....

Pathfinder76

12-27-2011, 06:40 PM

Go figure, in all the transplanting that has been done only six different times have they move Sheep around inside of alberta and the majority have been transplanted in the States. Now if SRD was so worried about the health of sheep in this great province, why aren't they moving more sheep around Alberta, or are they more concerned about helping out the States, and who pays to move the sheep to the States.

There is another thing they can't do right. It's getting a little late for that. The party at Cadomin has imploded. As it was bound to do. I had a wildlife expert tell me I was a fool when I mentioned two years ago that there would be a major die off there within the next five years.

sheephunter

12-27-2011, 06:44 PM

There is another thing they can't do right. It's getting a little late for that. The party at Cadomin has imploded. As it was bound to do. I had a wildlife expert tell me I was a fool when I mentioned two years ago that there would be a major die off there within the next five years.

Been a lot of people saying that's an inevitability for many years. Where did all the Sheep River Sanctuary rams go?

Pathfinder76

12-27-2011, 06:52 PM

Been a lot of people saying that's an inevitability for many years. Where did all the Sheep River Sanctuary rams go?

There are COUNTLESS screw ups that could be cited when it comes to this Provinces wildlife management. It will never change as long as the same sheep keep voting for the same shepard.

Justin.C

12-27-2011, 06:52 PM

Been a lot of people saying that's an inevitability for many years. Where did all the Sheep River Sanctuary rams go?
In the last 4 years the biggest got ran over. The 2 next biggest got shot by natives. There are some that just get shot out side of the park.But all and all nothing left there...I saw 17 rams last summer out there together.. But man are numbers nothing like Cadomin for either ram or ewe.... I was at Cadomin and there are still plenty they could transplant around the province to fix or start new hwerds...

ram crazy

12-27-2011, 10:15 PM

It would be interesting to know what FNAWS alberta chapters stand is on these changes that are supposedly coming to sheep hunting, or are they in favour of it. Does anybody know?

sheephunter

12-27-2011, 10:33 PM

In the last 4 years the biggest got ran over. The 2 next biggest got shot by natives. There are some that just get shot out side of the park.But all and all nothing left there...I saw 17 rams last summer out there together.. But man are numbers nothing like Cadomin for either ram or ewe.... I was at Cadomin and there are still plenty they could transplant around the province to fix or start new hwerds...

I was kind of asking where all the sheep had gone in Sheep River. Numbers are way down. More than a couple getting shot.

ram crazy

12-27-2011, 10:34 PM

Been a lot of people saying that's an inevitability for many years. Where did all the Sheep River Sanctuary rams go?

Isn't there cattle running around there as well as the rest of the 400 zones, could that have something to do with it as well?

sheephunter

12-27-2011, 10:35 PM

Isn't there cattle running around there as well as the rest of the 400 zones, could that have something to do with it as well?

Not sure......

Justin.C

12-27-2011, 10:36 PM

It would be interesting to know what FNAWS alberta chapters stand is on these changes that are supposedly coming to sheep hunting, or are they in favour of it. Does anybody know?I was told they were for it... But that is here say.

Justin.C

12-27-2011, 10:39 PM

I was kind of asking where all the sheep had gone in Sheep River. Numbers are way down. More than a couple getting shot.I know... There was a big die off froma sickness.. Also lots getting killed from wolves and cougars. I was stating as of the last couple years....

ram crazy

12-27-2011, 10:40 PM

The cattle could have an impact on the health of sheep herds too, but yet nobody is doing anything about this problem either (money talks) I guess!!!!

Justin.C

12-27-2011, 10:40 PM

Isn't there cattle running around there as well as the rest of the 400 zones, could that have something to do with it as well?That could very well be a valid question...

ram crazy

12-27-2011, 10:44 PM

I know... There was a big die off froma sickness.. Also lots getting killed from wolves and cougars. I was stating as of the last couple years....

We watched a cat putting a stock on 7 Rams luckily they managed to escape, but just barely as the cat was just inches from getting one. It was an incredible sight to see.

Justin.C

12-27-2011, 10:46 PM

We watched a cat putting a stock on 7 Rams luckily they managed to escape, but just barely as the cat was just inches from getting one. It was an incredible sight to see.
when was that??? I have seen lots of big bad critter in there more than once... That is a real big problem in all the province....

ram crazy

12-27-2011, 10:51 PM

It was a couple years ago.

Nait Hadya

12-27-2011, 11:20 PM

.... Also lots getting killed from wolves and cougars.....

i would venture a guess that cougars are more of a problem,yet SRD does nothing to make hunting these cats possible.

sheephunter

12-28-2011, 08:15 AM

i would venture a guess that cougars are more of a problem,yet SRD does nothing to make hunting these cats possible.

Yup, I know where there are several big cats right now on established sheep winter range and it is closed to anyone even walking in with dogs.

sheephunter

12-28-2011, 08:47 AM

I know... There was a big die off froma sickness.. Also lots getting killed from wolves and cougars. I was stating as of the last couple years....

When was the die off? What sickness?

walking buffalo

12-28-2011, 09:17 AM

When was the die off? What sickness?

Which die off? '78, 85-86, 93-95?

Some would say they were protected and studied to death.

sheephunter

12-28-2011, 09:18 AM

Which die off? '78, 85-86, 93-95?

Some would say they were protected and studied to death.

There has been something more recent though. What did they die from?

gopher

12-28-2011, 09:19 AM

Y not make it a pay to play deal 600 a tag over the counter should do it

sheephunter

12-28-2011, 09:24 AM

Y not make it a pay to play deal 600 a tag over the counter should do it

I'm not a huge fan of pricing a public resource out of reach of the average Alberta hunter but no doubt it would work. It was considered by SRD but has been dropped as an idea.

crazyfish

12-28-2011, 09:27 AM

Y not make it a pay to play deal 600 a tag over the counter should do it

the average alberta hunter should be allowed to buy that tag for a reasonable amount There are better sollutions than that !

gopher

12-28-2011, 09:37 AM

the average alberta hunter should be allowed to buy that tag for a reasonable amount There are better sollutions than that !

With dollar 1.29 diesel fuel 250 dollar dumpy hotel rooms and dinner for 2 at A@W for 27 bucks Ya I think a sheep is worth 600$ all day long.

Pathfinder76

12-28-2011, 09:49 AM

Y not make it a pay to play deal 600 a tag over the counter should do it

I'd be all over that. But most would sooner freebee them all the way to non hunting status and defend that position to their buddy on their 4g IPhone while sitting in their $45000 trucks sipping a $4 latte between talking about the latest episode of Whack em and Stack em that's included with their $150 a month subscription on Bell Express Vu.

Talk about entitlement.

gopher

12-28-2011, 09:57 AM

I'd be all over that. But most would sooner freebee them all the way to non hunting status and defend that position to their buddy on their 4g IPhone while sitting in their $45000 trucks sipping a $4 latte between talking about the latest episode of Whack em and Stack em that's included with their $150 a month subscription on Bell Express Vu.

Talk about entitlement.

Oh forgot about those guys! Same dudes that buy dumpy rifles in hardware store calibers in case they forget the ammo on their big hunt

Justin.C

12-28-2011, 11:08 AM

There has been something more recent though. What did they die from?
I am not sure I figured that most were from the predetors.. I was told by the ranger there is a few diffrent kitty cats in the area and a bunch of wolves....

Justin.C

12-28-2011, 11:16 AM

Y not make it a pay to play deal 600 a tag over the counter should do itYou buying my tag... Thanks.

With dollar 1.29 diesel fuel 250 dollar dumpy hotel rooms and dinner for 2 at A@W for 27 bucks Ya I think a sheep is worth 600$ all day long.I dont drive a diesel and sur the heck dont stay in a hotel and buy junk food so what is your point???? Just cause you do....

I'd be all over that. But most would sooner freebee them all the way to non hunting status and defend that position to their buddy on their 4g IPhone while sitting in their $45000 trucks sipping a $4 latte between talking about the latest episode of Whack em and Stack em that's included with their $150 a month subscription on Bell Express Vu.
Talk about entitlement.Hey Chuck.. Not everybody falls in to this catagory.... Paying $600 for a tag takes alot of people rite out of being able to go up the mountain.... I am not for this as hunting is turning in to a rich mans sport which is BS....

Oh forgot about those guys! Same dudes that buy dumpy rifles in hardware store calibers in case they forget the ammo on their big huntIt is funny alot of people that have killed probably the ton 30 rams in the world probably killed them with one of these crappy guns.... You sir must have a $6000+ christensen rifle in a yuppy caliber...:sHa_sarcasticlol:

gopher

12-28-2011, 11:44 AM

You buying my tag... Thanks.

I dont drive a diesel and sur the heck dont stay in a hotel and buy junk food so what is your point???? Just cause you do....

Hey Chuck.. Not everybody falls in to this catagory.... Paying $600 for a tag takes alot of people rite out of being able to go up the mountain.... I am not for this as hunting is turning in to a rich mans sport which is BS....

It is funny alot of people that have killed probably the ton 30 rams in the world probably killed them with one of these crappy guns.... You sir must have a $6000+ christensen rifle in a yuppy caliber...:sHa_sarcasticlol:

Was more of a point of the prices of things these days I have yet to see a bag lady on the mountain

Hunting is a rich mans sport sorry

No lol I don’t have a 6000$ Christensen rifle like I said I don’t shoot junk

gopher

12-28-2011, 11:49 AM

You buying my tag... Thanks.

If that’s all it takes to get you to stop sheep hunting then my plan would work :)

bdub

12-28-2011, 11:51 AM

IMO the government needs to get the cattle out of the forestry, have a cull on wolves, coyotes and open cougar up in the mountains, burn a bunch of bush to improve and expand winter range, limit some access especially easy access on to winter range, limit ATV access in many places, horse access as well in others, gradually phase in full curl with no draw, perhaps put 4/5 curl on draw for a few years until it is full curl throughout the province. I am sure I'll get an earfull from some but just my opinion.

Justin.C

12-28-2011, 11:52 AM

If that’s all it takes to get you to stop sheep hunting then my plan would work :)
Good luck with that.

Justin.C

12-28-2011, 11:57 AM

Was more of a point of the prices of things these days I have yet to see a bag lady on the mountain

Hunting is a rich mans sport sorry

No lol I don’t have a 6000$ Christensen rifle like I said I don’t shoot junk

No it sure is not.

mad mountain mike

12-28-2011, 11:57 AM

gopher

12-28-2011, 12:10 PM

No it sure is not.

Rich could be defined as anything you want Justin to a bag lady hunting is out of reach. Don’t you think a trophy sheep is worth more then 52$ take the bottles back if you have too………

Nait Hadya

12-28-2011, 12:11 PM

I have seen studies where domestic sheep have impacted wild sheep but nothing about cattle. The cows I thought were being used to keep the brush and foliage under control.

nope they got wild horses doing that task,,,,lol

Justin.C

12-28-2011, 12:26 PM

Rich could be defined as anything you want Justin to a bag lady hunting is out of reach. Don’t you think a trophy sheep is worth more then 52$ take the bottles back if you have too………

It is funny you say that as once I had to take bottles back to buy a tag as payday was not till the fallowing Friday. Thank god for cheap gas and a 4 banger car I had a full tank in. Also $50 is more than enough as it just goes in to a general revenue account. If it went to help sheep yes I agree but 600 get real.

Nait Hadya

12-28-2011, 12:38 PM

gopher

12-28-2011, 12:41 PM

Also $50 is more than enough as it just goes in to a general revenue account. If it went to help sheep yes I agree but 600 get real.

Oh well I better get out there and kill them all while I can. I keep forgetting this is Alberta rape and pillage till it is all gone. Glad sheep hunting is affordable to the guy living in the card board box in down town Calgary it’s only fair

Justin.C

12-28-2011, 12:48 PM

Oh well I better get out there and kill them all while I can. I keep forgetting this is Alberta rape and pillage till it is all gone. Glad sheep hunting is affordable to the guy living in the card board box in down town Calgary it’s only fair

Hey if you want to pay more tax send the gov you 600. They will be happy for to take it from you. How many rams have you got by the way??????

Lefty-Canuck

12-28-2011, 12:49 PM

Oh well I better get out there and kill them all while I can. I keep forgetting this is Alberta rape and pillage till it is all gone. Glad sheep hunting is affordable to the guy living in the card board box in down town Calgary it’s only fair

Well here we go with "only the elite should be able to attitude".....jack the prices up so only the wealthy and "Elite" can hunt sheep, give your head a shake.

Properly manage the resource and the non-resident tags......thats a good place to start in all this.

LC

jrs

12-28-2011, 12:59 PM

Wow, hard to believe the high tag cost idea was considered! I did a 10 day sheep hunt up north this year, food, gas, and one night in hotel due to injury first trip out, still under $700. That's including gear wear too. Keep it in reach for the average guy...

gopher

12-28-2011, 01:04 PM

Laughing. 600 bucks wealthy and elite give your head a shake $50 what a joke. Kill them all boys

Lefty-Canuck

12-28-2011, 01:09 PM

Laughing. 600 bucks wealthy and elite give your head a shake $50 what a joke. Kill them all boys

LOL, you are the one who supported higher tag costs.....what was your reason for supporting that? was it to eliminate some of the competition or was it with hopes the extra money raised goes back into the resource?

I am willing to bet alot of people would not buy a sheep tag if it cost $600.....and that was your point...right? to weed out the people who either can afford, aren't willing to pay, or aren't "serious" enough to go after sheep?

Curious as to you comment about $50 bucks being a joke what is that in reference to?

LC

gopher

12-28-2011, 01:19 PM

LOL, you are the one who supported higher tag costs.....what was your reason for supporting that? was it to eliminate some of the competition or was it with hopes the extra money raised goes back into the resource?

I am willing to bet alot of people would not buy a sheep tag if it cost $600.....and that was your point...right? to weed out the people who either can afford, aren't willing to pay, or aren't "serious" enough to go after sheep?

Curious as to you comment about $50 bucks being a joke what is that in reference to?

LC

Extra money to the sheep resource yes. Yup would weed out a lot of guys. $51.31 is a joke

Justin.C

12-28-2011, 01:20 PM

Laughing. 600 bucks wealthy and elite give your head a shake $50 what a joke. Kill them all boys

You are special. How is paying more do anything?????

Also still waiting. How many have u got?????????

Lefty-Canuck

12-28-2011, 01:21 PM

Extra money to the sheep resource yes. Yup would weed out a lot of guys. $51.31 is a joke

Ok.... well you just proved my point then.

LC

Justin.C

12-28-2011, 01:27 PM

Extra money to the sheep resource yes. Yup would weed out a lot of guys. $51.31 is a joke

How does extra money do anything. It does not go to our sheep it goes to everything but our wildlife. Font you get that??????? Use your brain.

gopher

12-28-2011, 01:29 PM

You are special. How is paying more do anything?????

Also still waiting. How many have u got?????????

Special no I am not able to take the bottles back for extra cash yes. Ah the pics or it didn’t happen guy bothers you not knowing eh?......Grin

bdub

12-28-2011, 02:18 PM

I have seen studies where domestic sheep have impacted wild sheep but nothing about cattle. The cows I thought were being used to keep the brush and foliage under control.

Cattle can limit forage for sheep on critical winter habitat, cause avoidance of habitat especially during lambing and shortly after lambing, screw up mineral licks or cause less use of them by sheep. As for keeping bush under control they would be far better off doing more prescribed burns and stop putting out naturally caused fires. The only way to improve or increase sheep habitat is to burn the bush. With better habitat you get better sheep quality and sheep better able to resist lungworm and pnemonia during high stress conditions.

Justin.C

12-28-2011, 03:21 PM

Special no I am not able to take the bottles back for extra cash yes. Ah the pics or it didn’t happen guy bothers you not knowing eh?......Grin
I was a kid when I did that. Haha. No I want to know if you have a ram or not as guys with out have a whole other opinion on how we should do it as they just have not earned one yet.

Rackmastr

12-28-2011, 03:39 PM

I was a kid when I did that. Haha. No I want to know if you have a ram or not as guys with out have a whole other opinion on how we should do it as they just have not earned one yet.

I'm not sure I'd make that blanket statement about guys with rams and guys without rams. Several guys I know have not killed a ram but hunted for 5-10+ years for one, understand sheep and have a true passion for sheep hunting. Others have shot one in a year or two. Does killing truly mean that a person understands or have a fully different opion on the matter? I highly doubt it from what I've seen....and earning one comes in a whole lot of different experiences and cant really be measured against another persons view of 'earning' IMO....

ram crazy

12-28-2011, 03:54 PM

I'm going to go with no Rams for gopher as he is avoiding the question, and I would say it takes the average sheep hunter about 10yrs. to get a sheep and sure the odd nube gets one the first year.

Huntnut

12-28-2011, 03:58 PM

I'm going to go with no Rams for gopher as he is avoiding the question, and I would say it takes the average sheep hunter about 10yrs. to get a sheep and sure the odd nube gets one the first year.

Isn't there a saying that goes something like"the ram you shoot will most likely not even have been born yet when you started sheep hunting" or soemthing like that?

pottymouth

12-28-2011, 04:23 PM

I'm not sure I'd make that blanket statement about guys with rams and guys without rams. Several guys I know have not killed a ram but hunted for 5-10+ years for one, understand sheep and have a true passion for sheep hunting. Others have shot one in a year or two. Does killing truly mean that a person understands or have a fully different opion on the matter? I highly doubt it from what I've seen....and earning one comes in a whole lot of different experiences and cant really be measured against another persons view of 'earning' IMO....

Well said!

I'm going to go with no Rams for gopher as he is avoiding the question, and I would say it takes the average sheep hunter about 10yrs. to get a sheep and sure the odd nube gets one the first year.

Ksteed got a ram on his first try! Does that make him lucky or less of a sheep hunter than guys who have put 10+ years?

He also shoot a monster, maybe that makes him one of the best ram hunters ever, cause there's a lot of 10+ guys that haven't sniffed a ram like that!

Passion for sheep, has no limits or molds, nor does it have to come from experienced or none experienced guys. Wanting to make everything better, and have sheep to hunt in the future is what this thread is about.

Brainstorming solutions, and motivating people to stand up to fight for the cause. And not to do nothing and accept a resolution that only satisfies the paper pushers.

ram crazy

12-28-2011, 04:24 PM

If FNAWS is in favour of a draw it would seem that there are a lot of sheep hunters here that are supporting an organization that is going against what we want here in Alberta.

ram crazy

12-28-2011, 04:27 PM

Well said!

Ksteed got a ram on his first try! Does that make him lucky or less of a sheep hunter than guys who have put 10+ years?

He also shoot a monster, maybe that makes him one of the best ram hunters ever, cause there's a lot of 10+ guys that haven't sniffed a ram like that!

Passion for sheep, has no limits or molds, nor does it have to come from experienced or none experienced guys. Wanting to make everything better, and have sheep to hunt in the future is what this thread is about.

Brainstorming solutions, and motivating people to stand up to fight for the cause. And not to do nothing and accept a resolution that only satisfies the paper pushers.

I'd sooner be lucky than good!!!

decker

12-28-2011, 04:29 PM

I agree there is more to sheep hunting than just killing. It's your gear you have to buy and upgrade. The committment to stay in shape, so you can get to the places that you want.

And finally it's the hunt, there is nothing more peaceful than hunting sheep. At 6000 to 9000 ft you rarly run into anybody. I have been hunting sheep for three years and I don't get alot of opportunity to get out but when I do I enjoy every second of it. This year I did my dream hunt with horses and mules, it was alot of work but words can't describe the feeling of being out there.

After being bitten with the sheep bug, it's the only hunting I really want to do other than predator hunting ( thats a new ball game). I know my wife and all my friends would say that I am very committed to hunting sheep. Not only do you have yourself to keep in shape you have your animals to feed all year and keep in shape, keep your skills with shooting and maintaining all your tack. Put feed up during the summer to feed your horses and mules.
For me I have alot of time and money invested for sheep hunting, so for someone to come here and claim one guy is more committed to sheep than another guy is just plain selfish.

Ok done That is probably the most I ever wrote in one post before. And I have yet to shoot a Sheep.

gopher

12-28-2011, 04:38 PM

Pics or it didn’t happen lol :sHa_shakeshout:

sheephunter

12-28-2011, 04:46 PM

If FNAWS is in favour of a draw it would seem that there are a lot of sheep hunters here that are supporting an organization that is going against what we want here in Alberta.

From the response I received from them, they are not supporting any of the options right now and are seeking more information before they make a decision.

Justin.C

12-28-2011, 04:47 PM

decker

12-28-2011, 04:51 PM

Pics or it didn’t happen lol :sHa_shakeshout:

Are you saying that I have never been out sheep hunting?

Justin.C

12-28-2011, 04:56 PM