What are the causes of "winter kill"

[Mike_W]

Thought I had an idea why winter kill happens but now im getting confused. what are the causes? I know it has to do with low oxygen but what contributes to that?

[Kevin_Thunder]

Thought I had an idea why winter kill happens but now im getting confused. what are the causes? I know it has to do with low oxygen but what contributes to that?

Rotting plants and algae are the major contributors to low oxygen levels. When organic matter rots, it consumes oxygen. Deeper lakes are able to deal with this better than shallow lakes. During dry winters like the one we're having now, the lack of snow cover allows the sun to penetrate the lake, so plants are still able to photosynthesize and live, thus delaying or even preventing winterkills.

[Dan Foss]

Rotting plants and algae are the major contributors to low oxygen levels. When organic matter rots, it consumes oxygen. Deeper lakes are able to deal with this better than shallow lakes. During dry winters like the one we're having now, the lack of snow cover allows the sun to penetrate the lake, so plants are still able to photosynthesize and live, thus delaying or even preventing winterkills.

very good explanation

[Levy]

Great explanation! Oxygen recharge from wind is also a factor. Wave action recharges a considerable amount of oxygen in the water column, so wind exposure during the fall can be a factor in determining whether or not a lake winter kills or not over the winter.

[Dan Foss]

For the sake of providing factors that provide oxygen to the lake preventing winter kill; Streams and rivers flowing into the lake bring oxygen and nutrients. Same thing with springs. As mentioned depth also helps. I believe the magic number is some were around 30 feet?

[vettedreamer]

in my area over the past 5 years I know of 5 stocked ponds that the aeration system has been pulled by the counties, know this 3 of these ponds have winter killed every year since. SO a question along the original question is there lots of maintenance that goes with these aerated ponds, once the aeration is in place?

[Doc]

in my area over the past 5 years I know of 5 stocked ponds that the aeration system has been pulled by the counties, know this 3 of these ponds have winter killed every year since. SO a question along the original question is there lots of maintenance that goes with these aerated ponds, once the aeration is in place?

Very little maintenance once they are installed. Pretty much, just someone to keep an eye out if they are still running. Some things that will stop them from running are:
Power failure, fishing line getting wrapped around them, small animals getting caught in them or chewing through the power cable. If they do stop working, the ice will freeze around them solidifying them in the ice, then they'll need to be cut out. If they are the compressor style aerators, even less issues.

[Willowtrail]

Very little maintenance once they are installed. Pretty much, just someone to keep an eye out if they are still running. Some things that will stop them from running are:
Power failure, fishing line getting wrapped around them, small animals getting caught in them or chewing through the power cable. If they do stop working, the ice will freeze around them solidifying them in the ice, then they'll need to be cut out. If they are the compressor style aerators, even less issues.

How are the aerators doing out at Muir? All good?

[tallieho]

another very good resource,that i found quite interesting mywildalberta.com..i think that it was generated because of all the questions asked about fishing,stocking,lists of aerated lakes,summer/winterkill etc.

[Doc]

How are the aerators doing out at Muir? All good?

From what I've heard so far, so good. The three clubs responsible for the Muir Lake Project take turns keeping an eye on the aerator (Edmonton Trout Club, Edm T.U./NLFT&F's & the Edmonton Old Timers Fishing Club).

[all canadian]

Hi Guys
I stopped by a stocked pond last weekend that we go with the kids during the summer. Winter Kill!!!! You could see all the trout belly up with their mouth open stuck in the ice. Most of these ponds were made 40-50 years ago without any improvements. Isn't this counter productive to let these fish die and start all over each year. Would it be possible to dig it deeper to prevent winter kill. Even saw the Airdrie group trying to pull weeds out of Dewitts to no avail.
Any suggestions to prevent this without big cost of windmills. Would the money growing trout be better spent in ponds without winter kill. Then when the ice melts the water gets remixed and the water layers are lost depriving fish of oxygen once again often killing them.

Any suggestions?:thinking-006:

[Brandonkop]

It has already been described here pretty well, the whole dreaded winter kill!!! It scares me and I wish it never happened. The oxygen consumption is largely due to aerobic micro organisms which use the dead plant material and weeds in the lake for an energy sounce. When the light shines through and plants remain alive photosynthesizing they actually may replenish a small amount of oxygen. At least thats as much as this small brain could put together from a few years back in undergrad biology classes. Maybe things have changed now that I mostly do people biology, haha

I sure wish they aerated more ponds, it would be nice if the fish weren't wasted like that. Or they should measure the oxygen contents in the lakes and just prior to suspected winterkill they could net the fish out to prevent the waste. Who knows governments never make any sense to me.

Someday my dream is to have my own trout pond in the back yard with an aerator! Then I can C&R fat rainbows all year from my porch! Here's to dreamin!

Brandon

[tallieho]

i remember :angry3: quite a few years back,when .They installed a an aerator & complete system,all the bells & whistles.Some were very happy to see this installed on this fantastic trout fishery.Well someone/others thought otherwise.They stole the pump/motor etc.Burnt down the shack.Where you ask? Cow Lake!!!

[Doc]

Hi Guys

Any suggestions to prevent this without big cost of windmills. Would the money growing trout be better spent in ponds without winter kill. Then when the ice melts the water gets remixed and the water layers are lost depriving fish of oxygen once again often killing them.

Any suggestions?:thinking-006:

It all comes down to $ and need/want. How many trout are they stocking in the pond and does the pond see a lot of use? One fountain aerator is going to cost about $2000+ for a winter in electricity costs plus the installation and removal of the aerators every season (volunteers?). There is also the initial cost of running power cables and building a power box. If there is no power easily accessible then this cost goes way up. Not sure what it cost to raise a rainbow any more, it used to cost the province around $1.00 per trout when we did Muir Lake but I'm sure that's gone up, maybe $1.25? If the pond sees a fair amount of of use, would you want to take that away from the local residents when the costs involved in aeration are not feasible?

[fish gunner]

so here in alberta we dont seem to be able to find $$ that makes no sense to me. dont we have a heritage fund for just these projects.these projects have the legacy that will enrich lives for generations. just dont make no sense.

[all canadian]

I just would like to see something more sustainable. Imagine having these ponds not winter kill. I'm tired of waiting till aug until the fish are a decent size to catch only to have them winter kill by fall. What about making them deeper. We could have 3-5 lbs fish in every pond. I know guys with dugouts with better productivity. I don't think the government has spent a dime on new ponds forever. How is it that in 1950 or 1960 they had money to build them and now they don't. We could show similar findings as (the pheasant survey that was sent out this fall) the economic spin off fishing created for the entire province by fishermen and women. Each dollar the province spent on fishing I'm sure generates 10 times their money back. Does anyone have statistics on how many licences are sold each year?
I know just the last 3 times I've been out fishing I spent a pile of cash.
Sorry a little off topic.

[fish gunner]

I dont see your post as off topic i think you hit the nail on the head how can alberta have issues with funding. some thing smells fishy in our gov, not the dead ponds.

[Dan Foss]

I just would like to see something more sustainable. Imagine having these ponds not winter kill. I'm tired of waiting till aug until the fish are a decent size to catch only to have them winter kill by fall. What about making them deeper. We could have 3-5 lbs fish in every pond. I know guys with dugouts with better productivity. I don't think the government has spent a dime on new ponds forever. How is it that in 1950 or 1960 they had money to build them and now they don't. We could show similar findings as (the pheasant survey that was sent out this fall) the economic spin off fishing created for the entire province by fishermen and women. Each dollar the province spent on fishing I'm sure generates 10 times their money back. Does anyone have statistics on how many licences are sold each year?
I know just the last 3 times I've been out fishing I spent a pile of cash.
Sorry a little off topic.

I think you seriously underestimate the indirect costs of controlling a provincial fishery. COs, biologists, and all the studies they do cost money and our fishing licences are very very cheap. not alot of inflow into the government for this stuff.

Anyways the argument of Aerators has been solved. More expensive to aerate a pond than it is to restock. I could only imagine the costs of making a lake deeper. Would not be a cheap project by any means.

[densa44]

All the solutions that have hardware that can be vandalized doesn't seem to work. Soler powered pumps and/or compressors will be stolen or damaged. Are there biological solutions that work but don't make things worse (grass eating carp from China)?

[jrs]

The government is not all that interested in developing more lakes, hence funding is not forthcoming. They've had many chances to develop new self sustaining fisheries in the Hinton and Edson area (reclaimed coal mines- no aeration needed) but for the most part have selected put and takes instead, or requested no lakes at all. A few self sustaining lakes have been created, and many put and takes, but chances of more self sustaining ones in the future are slim due to government guys who don't want another lake to slap catch and release regulations on (management can be so complicated...). Funding issues are real and alive, even when solutions are available..

[fish gunner]

All the solutions that have hardware that can be vandalized doesn't seem to work. Soler powered pumps and/or compressors will be stolen or damaged. Are there biological solutions that work but don't make things worse (grass eating carp from China)?

good point, triployid grass carp are avlable in alberta for use in private waters. it is my feelings there is some form of oversight or policy that our gov struggles wth to manage the fishery ,at a level found in the rest of canada.we have the least % of surface water and a high angler per capita ratio. so funds should be abundant not scarce.

[Vacation]

This spells it out pretty good...

Oxygen concentration is inversely related to temperature---cooler water holds more oxygen than warmer water. But because fish metabolism, and therefore oxygen requirements, increase with temperature, fish need more oxygen in warmer water. In other words, just when fish need the most oxygen, it is least available.

Besides temperature, other factors affect oxygen concentration. Oxygen dissolves in water as it mixes at the surface and through underwater plant photosynthesis.

In standing water, most oxygen comes from photosynthesis of plants, both rooted aquatic plants (macrophytes) and algae. Algae includes readily visible growths on substrates such as rocks and wood, as well as suspended microscopic phytoplankton. Flowing and turbulent water contains higher levels of oxygen because the water is constantly mixing with the oxygen in the atmosphere.

Just as oxygen is added to water, it can also be removed. Respiration of fish and other aquatic animals depletes the oxygen in water. Decomposing organisms and aquatic plants, whether macrophytes (green plants) or phytoplankton, also deplete oxygen. During the day, photosynthesis exceeds respiration and oxygen levels increase; at night, or when light cannot penetrate the water, oxygen levels decline as respiration and decomposition continues.

Two final notes, seemingly exceptions to the above information about flowing water, are worth remembering. First, water from underground springs has no oxygen. Where springs enter a lake or stream, no oxygen is present unless that spring water has been aerated by flowing above ground before entering the stream or lake.

Second, inflowing water receiving animal wastes or industrial discharges, or water flowing through a shallow marsh, will likely contain little oxygen. Such waters, because they add oxygen-consuming organic matter, may further reduce the oxygen in the receiving lake, stream, pond or river.


Water from deep springs and drilled wells will contain no oxygen but will have a high level of dissolved nitrogen which will kill trout within a few hours.

[Steven Noel]

In addition to what was already stated, the following is true. Green plants undergo photosynthesis; that is the formation of Glucose and Oxygen from carbon dioxide and water:

Light + 6H2O + 6CO2 ---> C6H12O6 + 6O2

However as they begin to die off, they fail to produce the Oxygen they did when photosynthesis was possible.

[all canadian]

Oh you guys are killing me too, way to negative. I'm swimming with the fishes. I understand winterkill! I want to do something about it. Those fish that die from winter kill how is that any different then commercial fishermen dumping non target fish?
Lets get some money together, have a dinner and make a change. How about increasing limits of fish, lets say sept 15th on, limit on winter kill fish ponds to be twice the legal limit!! Why have these fish parish when the object should be to harvest them.

[Steven Noel]

Oh you guys are killing me too, way to negative. I'm swimming with the fishes. I understand winterkill! I want to do something about it. Those fish that die from winter kill how is that any different then commercial fishermen dumping non target fish?
Lets get some money together, have a dinner and make a change. How about increasing limits of fish, lets say sept 15th on, limit on winter kill fish ponds to be twice the legal limit!! Why have these fish parish when the object should be to harvest them.

Because twice the legal limit at many waters where winterkill is common (often pot hole put and take lakes) would exceed the provincial maximum possession limits.

[Kim473]

I dont see your post as off topic i think you hit the nail on the head how can alberta have issues with funding. some thing smells fishy in our gov, not the dead ponds.

Too busy giving $$$ to millionairs who support and make donations to said gov parties. ( bed buddies )

[packhuntr]

Oh you guys are killing me too, way to negative. I'm swimming with the fishes. I understand winterkill! I want to do something about it. Those fish that die from winter kill how is that any different then commercial fishermen dumping non target fish?
Lets get some money together, have a dinner and make a change. How about increasing limits of fish, lets say sept 15th on, limit on winter kill fish ponds to be twice the legal limit!! Why have these fish parish when the object should be to harvest them.

That actually makes good sence. If I was not able to aerate my dugout, I would be doing a fall netting every year to get em out. Friends family etc, trout in everyones freezers. Re stock in the spring. Round and round it goes, why waste them... Seeing as I do aerate in a very fragile situation, I have no need to harvest in the fall to protect my yearly spring investment,, I just keep growing them out. I agree 100%, increase the limits on those trout in August that are in bad situations and utilize what can be utilized. Only then would it actually make ANY sence to be stocking those sh*t holes in the first place.

[SNAPFisher]

People posting on this should really stop and think about the challenges. Look and see what F&W are actually doing and how many lakes are stocked. I'm not seeing an easy out especially with all the pressure to a) stock more and bigger, b) stock more than enough to take 5 home for everyone but never run out, c) to quote a line from Jim Carey as the Grinch, "The avarice never ends!!!". :fighting0030:

You know digging is about the best ideas posted here. On the other hand, have any of you ever disturbed the old black mud of a typical pond? Put your nose close to it and the sulphuric smell and other gases should be enough to help you swim with the fishes. :)
When those gases are released you can pretty much guarantee total kill. Starting over again is all that will be left. It will be good for a bit until after years and the normal refill of the pond puts it back to the same that it was. How are you going to dig it out? Not many machines with the kind of reach needed....hmmmm....pump out all the water, killing all the fish, and dig it out. Pond sides are pretty muddy and yielding. Driving a multi-ton piece of equipment onto them is pretty much going to increase the cost to maintain when those machines are sunk in the ground. Hey! Helicoptor with a dragline attached. That should do it...until the local water fowl fly into the rotors. :budo:

Even more so the local fishing clubs are winning. If you are really that torn up about it, start a local trout club, steward a local pond, raise the funds, and look after it year after year after year. (best possible idea)

Yeah I know, I'm a ray of sunshine (i.e. sometimes to practical thinking). I'm just having a bit of fun too. Hope everyone has their sense of humour. I'll go fishing today and enjoy myself to come back with the best of attitudes. Peace out!

[packhuntr]

Really Snap fisher, you really think cleaning out and deepening these put and takes that are winter killing is a good idea?? LOLOLOL. Man, take this into account while you are claiming you have a "practical approach to thinking". It costs twice as much to clean out a dugout as it does to dig a new one. Now this is a small scale job I know, but lets attach some figures to it. Digging a dugout will run you about 5 thousand bucks. A clean out is DOUBLE. It is VERY difficult, each dugout draining and clean out is different and frought with challenges, takes more time and takes more equipment and more man power.
Aerating a slough with YEARS of black sludgy mud WORKS JUST FINE. If not able to aerate, my own "natural ability to take a practical approach when thinking", says if not able to aerate a fishery that is prone to winterkill, one MUST harvest stocked fish before the ice goes on, or net them as soon as the ice is thick enough to support man power and equipment required to net it out. Either that or lose the annual investment.

[SNAPFisher]

Pack, you did not pick up on any sarcasm??? There was nothing in my post. Maybe trying to get others to think a bit more practical with some bad humour. I can't believe that one poster was actually thinking that the heritage fund could be used for this! LOL!

How about clothing and rooming the homeless. I could imagine this and 100,000 other better uses of emergency funds like the heritage.

I beg to differ that certain bodies of water including sloughs could be fine with just aeration. Mother nature does the work all the time and mostly fails. To support the fish you will need the proper eco system in your pond and at least 6-7 ppm of oxygen content. Trust me, I've maintained my own ponds. All the threats will continue to effect the pond - new weed growth and death, natural fish death and mortality, you name it - it dies - it rots - it depleats O2. Pretty simple there.

If you have managed to do this, I'm not sure from your above post. Good for you. I had a simliar situation, however, I did use a sunken aerator stone and by mid-winter the sulphuric smell coming from the ice could not be stood. Spring time showed a complete kill of about 100 trout and 10 grass carp. Would have thought the grass carp could have been more hardy and made it. Nope!!

[fish gunner]

[QUOTE=SNAPFisher;1268351] I can't believe that one poster was actually thinking that the heritage fund could be used for this! LOL!

How about clothing and rooming the homeless. I could imagine this and 100,000 other better uses of emergency funds like the heritage.

hay that is just a suggestion I agree with you that there are other uses for funds that would enrich the lives of others.however I think you may be a little short sighted .we are talking tens of billions of dollars the intrest for one year would give albertas fisherys a fund that would last at least my life time. without even even touching the actual fund it self,producing a fishery province wide that will enrich lives for generations.how can this be a bad thing.just one mans thoughts.perhaps not the best solution but it is a solution.

[SNAPFisher]

Sorry Fish Gunner, not a solution, maybe in your mind it is. Even for an absolute fish crazed moron like me who would rather be out fishing than getting better from illness, using funds like the Heritage for fishing is about 100,001 on the list of good things to do. I hear some of your frustration and definately understand it. Higher on the list for me would be native stream and river restoration, lake restoration (at least for the ones with promise), etc. And none of these should be on a heritage list either! Human issues first.

Stocked trout ponds and sloughs are on the literal bottom of all things fishy.

If a healthy fish is swimming around and there is no one around to enjoy it, does that fish still really exist?

[fish gunner]

I understand your position. i am sorry to hear of your illness. my idea what ever we call it is just to create a fund for albertas fisherys management. we as a province are in the wealthest 1% on earth 3 million people with an oil revenue in the range of 200 billion $,surely we can find pocket change to improve the overall level of albertas sport fishery, policing,stocking sustainablity,habitat restoration.and yes I am frustrated this is canada if I travel more than a hour out side albertas borders in any direction my sport fishing oppurtuintys increase bye leaps and bounds.my other suggestion is you want to drill an oil well you adopte a lake. I am sure we could use funds for other humanitarian projects. it is my feelings that improved fisherys improvethe overall quality of life for the general population,all the while creating sustainable jobs,increased tourism,and a common interest in our province.my two bits get well soon thank you for your thoughts.