Cattle Rustlers beware!

[Selkirk]

http://artmight.com/albums/2011-02-07/art-upload-2/r/Remington-Frederick/094-Cattle-rustling-near-Tombstone%2C-Arizona-W.A.Rogers%2C-from-a-sketch-by-Frederic-Remington%2C-1882.gif


There's a $50,000 Reward on your head now ... http://www.calgarysun.com/2012/02/26/bounty-on-cattle-thieves-being-boosted


TF

[CaberTosser]

And that's when they're lucky.


SSS.

[guywiththemule]

About time... Should still be a hanging offence.

[Thinlizzy]

Interesting!!!
Billy the kids still kicking!

They don't need a $50K reward they need the Duke!
He take care of those wranglers!:)

[Dentye]

Another good reason why you still need to brand your calves!

[SonnyJ]

Interesting!!!
Billy the kids still kicking!

They don't need a $50K reward they need the Duke!
He take care of those wranglers!:)

Will Clint do?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4519a9tjyts/TcrZgwjXHHI/AAAAAAAAAbY/bHskMKBiL-k/s1600/hang_em_high.jpg

[Arachnodisiac]

Another good reason why you still need to brand your calves!

And your cows...

Though, some believe (as I do) that they end up in Manitoba, where brand inspection isn't common, other than Saskatchewan brand inspectors who are assigned to some auction marts.

RFID tags aren't enough when it comes to catching cattle thieves, no matter what the CCIA would have us believe. :)

[Matt L.]

no, bustin' out the old thirty-thirty and twine is the only thing that'll curb it. Pity the law takes a dim view of that nowadays.

[beerhunter]

I will watch your herd day and night. It will cost you but probably less than the 30-40 cows you will lose.

[Selkirk]

All kidding aside folks ... nothing much has worked at all, so far. Especially on the larger ranches, and ranches in the more remote areas.

Yesterday the reward was $1,000. Today the reward is $50,000. I'm guessing that just might make a big difference.

If any of you out there know any of cattle rustlers (or think you might), it may be worth your while ($50,000) to give Crime Stoppers a call and have a chat with them.


TF

[vcmm]

Tall tree+short rope= no Rustlers

[Yéil]

This makes me very happy to see... now to hit Manitoba over the head to get with the program... maybe we should threaten to take away their sand bags... or DEET.

[pikergolf]

Might seem like a silly question but why isn't chip technology being used to track cattle?

[vcmm]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[pikergolf]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Really?, I didn't think it was that expensive, every dog from the SPCA gets a chip don't they? Loss prevention alone must make it worth it, not? you get to a sale and the cow better be being sold by who the chip says it should?

[Yéil]

Ok, here's my big reason to brand over chipping... with a microchip you need a universal scanner and someone capable to use it and read it. With a hot or freeze brand, everyone who sees it becomes a potential scanner.

[Dentye]

$50,000.00 might make some people come forward but I think that ranchers need to try and do everything they can in the ways of prevention. Easier said then done but I think having good clear brands are the best and on your cow herds possiblytattoing would be beneficial as well.

My dad and I were talking about this tonight and it's kind of surprising that there hasn't been a central brand inspection system for the western provinces. Would be great if there was and if it would help curb this ASAP.

[calgarychef]

Maybe if more people were allowed to hunt some of those "remote" areas their presence might keep rustlers away.

[Kim473]

Why arn't the rcmp pulling trailers over that look like there hauling cattle? Asking for ID and other stuff. Seems to me that a person that has an address in a big city pulling a cattle trailer might be a suspect.

[landowner]

Police do pull over trailers . They then request manifests for the stock inside. Next time you drive highway 2 count the number of stock trailers you pass, it is a game of odds. Thousands of trailers, just a few with illegal stock.

[landowner]

Maybe if more people were allowed to hunt some of those "remote" areas their presence might keep rustlers away.

In those remote places, the feeling is that rustlers "scout " the area ,passing themselves off as legitimate hunters.

[Arachnodisiac]

My dad and I were talking about this tonight and it's kind of surprising that there hasn't been a central brand inspection system for the western provinces. Would be great if there was and if it would help curb this ASAP.

It would be very difficult to implement this as the brand registries in SK and AB are much different. In Alberta, brands have to be three characters, both provinces have grandfather clausing for historic brands, there would be overlap and people wold want to give up their family brand like you would want to relinquish your left nut.

However, Alberta and Saskatchewan work very closely together, and all brand inspectors have a copy of the other province's brand registry, which is updated at least quarterly, and perhaps monthly if I recall accurately. As well, Montana and the other branding states assist across the line, as we do with their investigations and B.C. is starting to brand more often, relying heavily on Alberta for advice and guidance.

There is a line drawn own the centre of Canada AND the U.S. with regard to branding. For instance, Montana brands, North Dakota and further east do not. This has much to do with the different style of ranching. In the West, cattle are spread over huge range lands, often in co-op grazing or communal pasture which made brands a necessity at round-up. In the East, grazing is is more concentrated (and let's face it, they certainly grow more grass per acre than we can!) and the practise never caught on.

Cattle now are affixed with RFID tags, which cost an average of $4/head. This is mandatory and the program was developed by the CCIA (Canadian Cattle Identification Agency with the support of the CFIA (Canadian Food Inspection Agency). However, these tags are not yet scanned at every stage of the chain, but auctions, buyers and packers are required to ensure that each animal has one in their ear or they cannot be sold.

Moreover, there are concerns with the technology. There rate of defective tags was much higher than anticipated in a provincial test of scanning in and out at auction marts in Alberta was conducted. Additionally, there is a better technology called high-frequency RFID that may have less of an effect on the speed of commerce. Speed is important for many reasons at the auction, including customer services and in shrink reduction of the animals from stress and handling.

That's just a very cursory look at the system we have in place now, and doesn't address all of the issues.

[Arachnodisiac]

Maybe if more people were allowed to hunt some of those "remote" areas their presence might keep rustlers away.

Let's not forget that thefts are likely to occur after the fall run, and the fall cattle run takes place during the peak hunting seasons.

It is most likely that there are a handful of rustlers taking most of the cattle. Trail cams, and signs that say premises are video monitored will help. But with cattle prices at record highs and expected to gain even more this year, rustling will continue as it always has throughout time.

(Even with the punishment was hanging, which I am not sure it ever was here?)

[Fordpilot83]

micro chipping needs to be implemented across canada. im not sure the best place to micro chip but somewhere in the neck. brands are too easily modified. anyone with a welder can make an iron. you dont even need a livestock manifest to haul horses anymore, thats why expensive rodeo horses go missing nowadays. if the goveernment has to subsidize the process to start it they should use the money theyre saving from not having a gun registry

[Arachnodisiac]

My understanding is that microchipping is difficult in such a large body as the chip can travel and with commercial cattle, the industry doesn't have the time to slow down the line at any step of the chain to look for a chip that has migrated to some unknown part of the body.

Brands can be modified, but at least in the case of commercial cattle, they are usually sold soon after being stolen and a brand that has been modified is very, very obvious when it's relatively fresh.

But yes, if there was another reliable and effective method of theft prevention, or remediation, that would be wonderful.

[FCLightning]

My understanding is that microchipping is difficult in such a large body as the chip can travel and with commercial cattle, the industry doesn't have the time to slow down the line at any step of the chain to look for a chip that has migrated to some unknown part of the body.


So, if they are that difficult how is that the dairy and hog industries use them in all their animals?

The biggest problems with RFID ear tags is that they do not stay in reliably (>10% IME) and they are very, very easy to remove.

[Arachnodisiac]

I really don't know why –*but I was told that migration is an issue in the beef industry. I will ask again though. :)

Yes, there are huge problems with the RFID tags. So much so, that one auction house in the trial in Alberta dropped out of the testing because it was such a PITA.

[Dentye]

Arachnodisiac:
So what do you think is the answer?(asking because you seem to have a better handle on the system then I do)
I have heard that the chip migrates as well and if thats the case then it really isn't a viable option unless it can be improved. I need to start work on inventing something new for the beef industry then and get on Dragon's Den and make a few million bucks! HA!

[Arachnodisiac]

Well, rustling in relation to the overall cost of the industry having to adopt yet another new expensive technology isn't as costly as it appears.

I think ranchers have to do a little more to protect their property (like trail cams). Most guys are overwintering their cattle close to home, because of feeding and calving, so loss prevention after the fall run and before summer grazing may be the easiest to prevent.

Beyond that, making sure every pair is branded is essential, and pure bred producers who have been reluctant to brand may want to reconsider. I know of one story specifically where pure bred cattle were stolen and then sold at auction, but caught only because they were branded. The RFID tags had been removed and replaced with new ones. The thief was caught and was given a $5,000 fine as I recall, and possibly a second $5,000 as well.

Alberta is fortunate and has two full-time RCMP members dedicated to cattle theft and other LIS-related services. This is paid for through brand inspection fees, and I know Saskatchewan would love to do the same thing one day.

I think better communication regarding cattle thefts to the auction managers in Manitoba wouldn't be a bad idea either, considering.

And RFID tags aren't about theft prevention, they are about animal health and traceability. The system has plenty of bugs yet, and right now it's nothing more than a dog and pony show in response to BSE rather than an effective animal health system. When the CFIA does disease trace-backs, they rely heavily on manifest records and brand inspection records.

I do not believe that the RFID tags has we have them now are reliable enough, or fast enough to meet the industry's needs. I don't mind traceability policy provided the policy is effective and efficient and doesn't impede commerce at any level of the chain. Even without a fully-operational system we have managed to secure most of our foreign trade that we lost after BSE, so there is absolutely no point in ram-rodding a half-assed system that doesn't perform onto the back of an industry that cannot bear much more.

[Taco]

Someone has done her research, well put.

[Dentye]

I like the point that you bring up about the RFID tags being for tracebility and not for loss prevention. I think some people feel that the RFID tags are supposed to prevent theft and they don't need to brand their calves or cows. Actually know a guy close to home that used to have a cow brand and a calf brand. His replacement heifers that he would keep would then get branded with his cow brand as well as carry the calf brand that he would put on. His reasoning was that if any were stolen then he would be able to report them or know if they ended up in his neighbors herd because they would have his cow brand on which only he should have cows with. This guy is a pretty small operation and he didn't tend to cull cows as hard as large operations so it was very seldom that any cows would go to market carrying his cow brand and end up in someone elses heard.

Its not a great system but not a bad idea either.

Saw a great article in the Lloydminster paper a month or two ago that a farmer at Cut Knife had 20 steers stolen and people were asked to keep a look out for something like 5 hereford, 8 blacks 4 simetal cross and 3 tan color steers. No brands but they had been RFID tagged! Ha!

[Dentye]

Someone has done her research, well put.

x2

[Yéil]

Arachnodisiac, I saw a similar half-assed system when it came to m'chipped show dogs and breeding stocks. Everyone was rushing out to MC the dogs as well as CKC number tattooing and then thinking their kennels were safe from theft or would be returned to them if they ever got out as strays.

Problems ensued with the number of chips on the market, and the need to have scanners that could read all of the varying brands. It took those 72 hour kill shelters about 4 years to change their policies that m'chipped animals were set aside and not to be killed - took even longer for them to start using universal scanner and have staff know how to read them. However, the amount of different chips and the scanners required to read them were still not getting dogs that were chipped back home. My vet can't read my girl's chip... they have the wrong type of scanner.

Chip migration was a big deal, it usually starts off between the shoulders but I've found them as far away as the rump. I've had instances where I've found the chip but it's not giving me any info (those are usually ones that weren't activated properly or ceased to function at some point over the life of the animal). Most places that are required to check for chips - research facilities, kennels, shelters, animal control etc will only scan the shoulder area, if no signal is picked up the animal can be deemed not chipped. If the auction/slaughter house doesn't have the type of scanner that can read all chips, then even with chips, some cattle may slip through. The newer types of chips have a anti-migration property that has really helped with this old problem. However, if it's not implanted properly there is a higher chance of the chip migrating.

It took until mid 2005 for the industry and ISO to standardise the scanners, chips and policies to ensue to make sure a chipped animal wasn't put down/sold to research or adopted out from a shelter or any pups registered with the CKC.

I was at a dog show in the UK, had my big foundation boy with me along with 8 other dogs. I had them all chipped, tattooed, collared, tagged, locked kennels and he still was stolen when they were being loaded into the van at the airport to be taken to the show. The police said the chances of him being returned were slim and they had been seeing an increase in thieves actually digging the chip out of the dog. The point he was trying to make was that with the old adage, locks only keep out honest folks, microchipping and animals IDing is only relied on by the honest folks in the biz. Those who are thieves/poachers don't care what the owner has done to mark the animal. It means nothing to them.

Hopefully a system will be settle upon soon and it has a way of being enforced. Maybe it's a good time to drop a letter off to your MP and remind them that steak they are enjoying in the Hill's cafeteria may have come from rustled beef cattle from Alberta.

[finsnfeathers]

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/Ardrossan+area+rancher+faces+charges+alleged+paper +cows+scheme/6223307/story.html

[guywiththemule]

Well, rustling in relation to the overall cost of the industry having to adopt yet another new expensive technology isn't as costly as it appears.

I think ranchers have to do a little more to protect their property (like trail cams). Most guys are overwintering their cattle close to home, because of feeding and calving, so loss prevention after the fall run and before summer grazing may be the easiest to prevent.

Beyond that, making sure every pair is branded is essential, and pure bred producers who have been reluctant to brand may want to reconsider. I know of one story specifically where pure bred cattle were stolen and then sold at auction, but caught only because they were branded. The RFID tags had been removed and replaced with new ones. The thief was caught and was given a $5,000 fine as I recall, and possibly a second $5,000 as well.

Alberta is fortunate and has two full-time RCMP members dedicated to cattle theft and other LIS-related services. This is paid for through brand inspection fees, and I know Saskatchewan would love to do the same thing one day.

I think better communication regarding cattle thefts to the auction managers in Manitoba wouldn't be a bad idea either, considering.

And RFID tags aren't about theft prevention, they are about animal health and traceability. The system has plenty of bugs yet, and right now it's nothing more than a dog and pony show in response to BSE rather than an effective animal health system. When the CFIA does disease trace-backs, they rely heavily on manifest records and brand inspection records.

I do not believe that the RFID tags has we have them now are reliable enough, or fast enough to meet the industry's needs. I don't mind traceability policy provided the policy is effective and efficient and doesn't impede commerce at any level of the chain. Even without a fully-operational system we have managed to secure most of our foreign trade that we lost after BSE, so there is absolutely no point in ram-rodding a half-assed system that doesn't perform onto the back of an industry that cannot bear much more.

And yes "they" are having a lot of trouble with the chips "migrating" on large animals but vets, etc. are working on this problem. And also; Brands can be modified or new brands applied before livestock are offered for sale but a good and diligent brand inspector will hold all proceeds(at an auction or a slaughter house) on any animal with a brand that appears to be 30 days old or less until the seller produces a proper bill of sale or positive proof of ownership that falls within the guidelines of the Act(One more reason why every transaction or sale between private producers should be "brand inspected"and verified) Sadly a lot of the current "brand inspection staff" are nothing more than PR people for the big feedlots and wealthy weekend cattle barons, and are nothing more than "cattle counters"; defenitely not enforcement or regulatory personal like they were originally intended to be.

[Arachnodisiac]

Yes, I hope they can resolve the migration problem. As you well know, it has to be easily scanned as well in fast-paced situations like moving cattle through chutes at the auction.

I have no doubt that one day, there will be a good solution. I just don't think we've perfected it enough to discount the value of branding. And I also think that we need to make sure whatever we decide to do is going to work for everyone. As I said before, I am not anti-traceability, but I believe we need to do it right and it has to be realistic.

As for brand inspectors in this province, can you elaborate? I am much more intimately familiar with brand inspection in Saskatchewan and for the most part, I have nothing but praise to sing for them. Here, I am new and learning still.

[Arachnodisiac]

Arachnodisiac, I saw a similar half-assed system when it came to m'chipped show dogs and breeding stocks. Everyone was rushing out to MC the dogs as well as CKC number tattooing and then thinking their kennels were safe from theft or would be returned to them if they ever got out as strays.


Half-assed just never works all the way, that's for sure!

But your post reminded me to update my dog's microchip information today. Thank you!

[NCC]

We lost a cow and our nieghbor (who we had phoned and asked if our cow had showed up there) sold her about 3 years later. The brand inspector in Grande Prairie picked up the brand and called us, and we did get paid for the cow.

Radio Frequency ID tags work for dairy cows because they are standing at a stanchion for several minutes each tag for the tag to be read. They don't work for cows because they don't have time to read them on the kill floor, they can't be read from a distance, and as soon as the critter hits a feedlot in the US they are often cut out and replaced with a regular dangle tag.

Rustlers are brazen. My uncle had someone back up to his chute along a main road near Rocky while he was at church and load up about 15 heifers. A fellow I went to school with at SAIT had a rustler load up about 10 finished steers through the chute in the yard, another guy from Rocky would back up along a fenced lease road, crash a bunch of critters down the fence and load whatever happened to jump in the trailer, and a different guy from Rocky was shooting and butchering cattle on site and then sellling the meat.

[guywiththemule]

Yes, I hope they can resolve the migration problem. As you well know, it has to be easily scanned as well in fast-paced situations like moving cattle through chutes at the auction.

I have no doubt that one day, there will be a good solution. I just don't think we've perfected it enough to discount the value of branding. And I also think that we need to make sure whatever we decide to do is going to work for everyone. As I said before, I am not anti-traceability, but I believe we need to do it right and it has to be realistic.

As for brand inspectors in this province, can you elaborate? I am much more intimately familiar with brand inspection in Saskatchewan and for the most part, I have nothing but praise to sing for them. Here, I am new and learning still.
"L.I.S." has been drifting more and more towards marketing livestock and promoting good relations with producers and big feedlots and improving buying and selling options and opportunities than doing what they were originally mandated to do,which is enforcement and regulatory services. The current L.I.S is totally losing sight of what the branch was originally designed for which was to stop the theft of and loss of cattle,horses,sheep,pigs, etc. Cost has become a big factor and certain political ambitions.:scared0018:

[Arachnodisiac]

But how are they marketing livestock? Some working examples of this shift would give me a much better picture of the scenario.

[guywiththemule]

But how are they marketing livestock? Some working examples of this shift would give me a much better picture of the scenario.

By not interfereing with sales and or slowing down the marketing process. Brand inspectors are quietly instructed(from the top) to not make "waves" in the industry and to be market friendly and cooperative with market operators,producers,and feedlot operators so the the sale of livestock is not interupted or slowed down in any way. A lot of the inspectors are shrugging their shoulders and counting their cattle and giving them a curteous glance at the 6 positions and calling it good.

[Arachnodisiac]

By not interfereing with sales and or slowing down the marketing process. Brand inspectors are quietly instructed(from the top) to not make "waves" in the industry and to be market friendly and cooperative with market operators,producers,and feedlot operators so the the sale of livestock is not interupted or slowed down in any way. A lot of the inspectors are shrugging their shoulders and counting their cattle and giving them a curteous glance at the 6 positions and calling it good.


Oh. Has this been raised as an issue at any meetings of public record? Like, ABP meetings, perhaps? :)

[vcmm]

Really?, I didn't think it was that expensive, every dog from the SPCA gets a chip don't they? Loss prevention alone must make it worth it, not? you get to a sale and the cow better be being sold by who the chip says it should?

Anything to do with the government will be expensive and usually a half assed job of it. It's back to making fines and charges against rustlers big enough for them not to want to do it.

[Yéil]

Thanks for helping me understand a bit more about this wonderful province... I hope they can get the systems sorted out soon.

In the meantime, I live quite close to the highway leading out of AB into Sask... is there anything that I can be looking out for when I'm out walking my dog that would be deemed suspicious? I see cattle transport all day going past here. I'm also often overlooking fields and valleys while I paint. I paint almost every day all over the MD. I see trailer and semis in strange places to be loading cattle... but I'm not a rancher form this here parts... I have a ton of film from various parts.. if I knew what I was looking out that was the prodominate issue/method used here in AB I might have some film to turn over to the RCMP.

[Segundo]

I certainly have to respect all of your opinions but felt I would give you mine.

I am involved in the cattle business. Brands are the way to go. Sure, someone may try to mess with it, but the whole idea of branding has been around this long for a reason ...

And I can only speak about the integrity of brand inspectors that I have seen in action. I have not seen any just waving animals through an inspection. And I have seen them stop the money in a sale until someone had proof of ownership.

I have also seen several livestock producers not send proper documentation with there cattle proving ownership when other brands are on them, and complain when an Inspector sorts it all out. His 80 K check is on hold...


I suppose in away it may be like the enforcement efforts of police on a highway. There are always speeders, but they catch the ones they come across.

... Back to those inspectors .... I personally can say that there are individuals out there ( -30 sometimes , dodging wild cattle, ball point pen in hand, crap on there face maybe, and taking crap from those people who say they bought that heifer 10 years ago and just can't find the invoice) who check a hundred or couple thousand head a day sometimes and make sure its done right because its there name and badge on the line if its done wrong.

Why they do it is a whole other post.

That is my opinion. I base it on the fact that I am one.

[Gunny]

I think if someone is robbing you that you should be able to drop them as long as you are doing it when they are in the act if that was the case my 3/4 section that my house is on would be a place you wouldnt want to come on when I get out my 50cal BMG I have fun shooting yotys though with that canon :bad_boys_20:

[CeeZee]

how big or small are these chips? cuz really the size of them that is in the rfid tag isnt that big. Are they ummm the same size as a Component implant? just thinking if it were put in like those in the ear it cant migrate, but maybe it would "fester" out?
just thinkin

[CeeZee]

you could be seeing those cattle liners in odd places just from people getting their critters to and from pastures. Not too many have cattle drives anymore, too much crazyness on the roads lol.

[CeeZee]

We deal with brnad inspectors and they take their duty pretty seriously, even when our sold critters are going to one of the "big dog operations" and its all done the same way. We had an instance last year from a grazing lease in SK on a reserve there, absolutely proved that the brand inspectors are doing their jobs! Rounded up our cattle in the fall and we were short a bull, 2 cows, and one calf, we found the bull bones, and understood the cow issue, and shrugged and said thats good. Then the following fall we got a call from the SK inspector(all the critters unloaded and loaded there get inspected) telling us the he cam across a yearling that was ours, turned out the calve wintered there somewhere and mixed in someone elses herd that summer. So it gives a guy a bit of faith in the system.

Being from MB I did not realize they had loopholes like that in the industry, seeing as it is a pretty important part of agriculture in the central areas. Learning from this thread for sure!

[Arachnodisiac]

... Back to those inspectors .... I personally can say that there are individuals out there ( -30 sometimes , dodging wild cattle, ball point pen in hand, crap on there face maybe, and taking crap from those people who say they bought that heifer 10 years ago and just can't find the invoice) who check a hundred or couple thousand head a day sometimes and make sure its done right because its there name and badge on the line if its done wrong.

Why they do it is a whole other post.

That is my opinion. I base it on the fact that I am one.

Good to hear from you! :)

I was nothing but impressed with the brand inspectors in Saskatchewan. I haven't been here long enough to see any in action in Alberta, but I'm sure I will be during this year's fall run.

Perhaps we will run into one another!

[Yéil]

how big or small are these chips? cuz really the size of them that is in the rfid tag isnt that big. Are they ummm the same size as a Component implant? just thinking if it were put in like those in the ear it cant migrate, but maybe it would "fester" out?
just thinkin

Hi Cee Zee, here's pic of the type used on dogs and cats. About the size of a grain of rice. The CKC gets them for about 4 bucks apiece when we do mc clinics.

[guywiththemule]

The problem is not with the inspectors, it is with the whole organization which is a privately run,for profit "company". The inspector who brings in the most revenue(= cattle counted) and saves the company the most money is the most highly valued. A good comparison would be if the RCMP were a privately run, for profit only,federal security service. Or if CPS was privately owned. There are a considerably less number of inspectors now than before it was privatized but the cattle numbers are the same and the theft rate is probably going to increase.

[Yéil]

you could be seeing those cattle liners in odd places just from people getting their critters to and from pastures. Not too many have cattle drives anymore, too much crazyness on the roads lol.

Yes, I've noticed lots of that type of activity. Would there be anything I should take note of when I do see it? (not trying to be a busy body but I do spend a lot of time on the back range roads getting references photos for my paintings etc so if I can help in a small way, be glad to lend a hand).