Ridiculous Info From F&W

[Mike H]

A buddy of mine has a brother in law that lives in Red Deer. He wants to come bear hunting with our group in the WORST way this spring lol. (Hes wanted to do a spring bear hunt for 20+ years, first chance he's got). He asked me how much I would charge him to take him bear hunting, and I told him that he dosn't need to pay me for taking him hunting, but he would need to kick in what the rest of us pitch for baiting costs, usually between $300 and $500 each. That covers all the costs of driving back and forth to Athabasca to stock our bait sites. He agreed (enthusiastically lol) and called himself in. When he told his buddy at work about the deal, he was told to call F&W because this was an illiegal guiding operation :lol: He phoned me with this info, and just for ****s and giggles, we decided to see what F&W had to say on the matter...

...imagine my surprise when the guy on the other end of the phone tells me that this WOULD be accepting remuneration for guiding services! I explained to him that ALL OF US throw our cash into an envelope in late March, and whoever can make it up to do a bait run that week takes their truck and quad and some cash from the envelope, and does the bait run! This guy wasn't exempt, he has a truck and quad, and would be doing his fair share of bait runs.....actually probably more than the rest of us beause he's 2 hours closer and works shorter hours.

I explained all this to the guy at F&W, and he stood his ground. "The only exception, would be if the guy was actually physically present at the gas station when you filled up with fuel specfically for THAT baiting run, and even then, there may still be legal reprocussions if either A) He pays more than 50% of the gas ACTUALLY USED on the trip, or B) if the vehicle and equipment being used are not registered to him." So I asked for some clarification on that, like, if we are going up together, with my truck, and my quad, and he decides to pay for the 2 fill ups in Calgary and Edmonton, then what? "That would be considered accepting remuneration for guiding, unless all the fuel he paid for is used exclusivley on that trip." :huh:

So then I asked, what if we went up in his truck, with his quad, and I filled up the truck twice, leaving say, $20 worth of gas left in the truck at the end of the hunt? Apparently that would be ok, because I'm guiding him, he's not guiding me (in quite the condescending tone I might add lol). So then I asked, how do you know I'm guiding him? Why couldn't he be guiding me? "Because you've already indicated that you are the more experienced bear hunter, and don't patronize me". :huh: :huh: :huh:

We really should have just let it go at this point, but I couldn't resist. I asked him if there was any legal way for the two of us to drive to Athabasca together, deposit some bait, and drive home, while splitting the operating costs of the trip, without beaking any laws. He refused to answer any more questions stating "I have already answered all these questions for you".

What the hell is up with this? We've already agreed that this is crap, and we're just gonna do it our way, but still, this raises some serious concerns for me about whos running the ship over there lol.

[roger]

right or wrong, these guys are using the letter of the law to define it.
it may have been completly different if the original question was posed in a different manner to the fishcop.

happy bearin'

[Mike H]

It was an officer... apparently not much of one at that.

Am I allowed to critcize his ability to do his job mods?

Don't want to get another one of these

Dear Mike Hunt,

You have received a warning at Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?p=119789

Reason:
-------
Inappropriate Language

Hi Mike,

Regardless of how you feel about the F&W officer you talked to, please refrain from calling our F&W officers names in future posts. This board is monitored on a constant basis by both SRD and F&W. This kind of conduct does not cast a positive light in hunters and anglers favour.

Thanks
-------

Warnings serve as a reminder to you of the forum's rules, which you are expected to understand and follow.

All the best,
Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum


Sheesh, you'd think I told a joke or something lol :lol: :lol:

[Rackmastr]

Its the law....its the way the Hunter Host laws are written and are in place so no abuse takes place......guy kinda has to live with it.....its there to protect resident hunts and guide/outfitters of Alberta.....

Follow the law and you're set.....

As for posting your warning...thats not the smartest thing in the world...

[Mike H]

" This board is monitored on a constant basis by both SRD and F&W."

I would hope somebody over there would see it and try to straighten "the guy" :wink: :wink: out.

[Rackmastr]

I would hope somebody over there would see it and try to straighten "the guy" :wink: :wink: out.

You mean straighten you out?? The officer is doing his job....explaining the law to you...what the hell did you expect??

[Mike H]

Its the law....its the way the Hunter Host laws are written and are in place so no abuse takes place......guy kinda has to live with it.....its there to protect resident hunts and guide/outfitters of Alberta.....

Follow the law and you're set.....

As for posting your warning...thats not the smartest thing in the world...

This has nothing to do with The Hunter Host Program whatsoever, he's an Alberta resident, with years and years of hunting licenses behind him, and so am I.

As for posting the warning.... dosn't seem like a problem to me, hope I didn't embarass any mods.......

[Mike H]

After reading the overview of the conversation I posted up there, can you honestly say that everything he said is 100% accurate? I sure don't think so. Nobody makes a penny from what we do, we all split the costs of baiting our sites. All of our WIN #s are posted on each site, we all have tree stands up there, we all use our own trucks and quads, we all bring our own food, we all SPEND money, none of us MAKE any money. There is a substantial NEGATIVE profit margin.

[LongDraw]

I re-read your post a couple of times. Unless I am missing something it makes no sense to me?

This is about a group of residents hunting together as friends, right?

[Rackmastr]

Hey....my mistake....I thought you were talking about the Hunter Host program....

Either way......best bet is to always check with the WIldlife Act and make sure your interpretation is the same as the interpretation of the F&W....

By paying money to a person to bait, the officer may see it as guiding...guess thats between you and them.....not a message board group of guys....heh

[Mike H]

Exactly! lol

[Mike H]

No sweat Rackmaster.

[LongDraw]

Mike,

Why would you even phone F&W to ask them this? The officer must have not understood the question.

[Mike H]

We were pretty clear with him, as clear as you can be with somebody that (diplomacy switch on) may not have as firm a grasp on reality as they should (diplomacy switch off) lol.

We asked for 2 reasons, first out of sincere concern for our new friends questions, and second, just for ****s and giggles really lol.

You can never be too careful with some of the ridiculous laws we have in place in this country lol. Like the fiasco with trigger locks and check stops etc a while back..... you just never know what they're gonna drum up next eh?

[Rackmastr]

Mike,

Why would you even phone F&W to ask them this?

Heh....this is kinda what I was thinkin too.....

I can see the officer's point though....you are paying one guy to go and bait....you are splitting the costs of the hunt but you're paying him to do it....so I guess he felt that you were paying for his services??

[Mike H]

you are paying one guy to go and bait....you are splitting the costs of the hunt


Did you read the whole post fella?

[Mike H]

I explained to him that ALL OF US throw our cash into an envelope in late March, and whoever can make it up to do a bait run that week takes their truck and quad and some cash from the envelope, and does the bait run! This guy wasn't exempt, he has a truck and quad, and would be doing his fair share of bait runs.....actually probably more than the rest of us beause he's 2 hours closer and works shorter hours.


?????????????????????????????????????????????

[LongDraw]

By the way that you are posting here I can't imagine that you maybe came off a bit abrasive and hostile to the officer in question? Just a hunch.....

[Mike H]

To start with, I was very polite with the officer.... stupidity is a real pet peeve of mine, having to explain something very simple over and over and over again to somebody will drive anybody nuts.

Like the crack Rackmaster made a second ago about "paying one guy to go baiting". NOT EVEN CLOSE! READ THE POST! EVERY WORD IS JUST AS IMPORTANT AS THE WORD BEFORE IT!

Reading the subject of a post, then scimming and reading every third or fourth line really can;t give you an accurate idea of what the post is about now can it?

I'm going to bed lol.

[Rackmastr]

Stupidity is one of my pet peeves too.....thats usually why when people come on a message board complaining about something that NO ONE here has anything to do with, it usually causes some interesting problems...

You posted it...what the hell do you expect? Its an issue between you and a F&W officer....like I said at the start....

YOU are paying him to bait...HE is paying you to bait....your friend is getting paid and paying to bait.....IN THE END you are all 'committing an offense' under the letter of the law.....and thats how the officer interpreted it. Obviously you had some worries about it as you called the F&W....not just for 'giggles'.....

Anyways, go to bed...you sound like ya need it.....

[bingo1010]

so i guess when a truck load of guys go out whitetail hunting for the day they each better buy their own pepsi at the gas station, cause if one guy were to buy everyones pepsi he is paying for the guiding services:lol: :ashamed:

[Elk Bugler]

Even if you guy's think he was doing his job this is what is wrong with fish cop's, No grey just black and white. like it was said before I guess we had all better buy our own Pepsi and when it comes time for the week long hunts we had all better buy our own groceries and not split the bill when the shopping is done. Come on guy's this a joke give me a brake , a liitle common sense goes a long way.

[Smoke-eater]

Not sure how this is a hunter host thing?? You said hes from Red Deer?? From the way I read it hes just a hunting partner....I dont know of any laws that say 2 resident hunters cant split costs what ever way they want? correct me if im wrong....

[Rackmastr]

If you call and ask a cop if you're allowed to speed...he'll tell you "NO"

Doesnt mean that he'll pull you over for driving 101km/h in a 100km/h zone....but when asked about the legalities, he'll tell you the EXACT law...black and white.....

Just because an officer states a law in black and white doesnt mean he'll enforce it to the strict letter of the law....but what do you expect when you call an ask for the exact legalities of an act?

[stubblejumper]

So I asked for some clarification on that, like, if we are going up together, with my truck, and my quad, and he decides to pay for the 2 fill ups in Calgary and Edmonton, then what? "That would be considered accepting remuneration for guiding, unless all the fuel he paid for is used exclusivley on that trip."

I find that disturbing since four of us hunt together,and only two of us own full size trucks.We travel two per truck,and alternate paying for each fill of gas.So if my partner pays for the last fill up of my truck,I have to run the tank dry before we get home,or I am breaking the law?:confused:

[Short Round]

If you call and ask a cop if you're allowed to speed...he'll tell you "NO"

Doesnt mean that he'll pull you over for driving 101km/h in a 100km/h zone....but when asked about the legalities, he'll tell you the EXACT law...black and white.....

Just because an officer states a law in black and white doesnt mean he'll enforce it to the strict letter of the law....but what do you expect when you call an ask for the exact legalities of an act?

Exactly. You called the guy up and gave him a long and I have to imagine somewhat confusing account of your baiting procedure, one that may, in the strict letter of the law, be considered illegal guiding.

If he tells you to go ahead and one of you gets busted guiding illegally (not saying that's what your doing -- just imagine somebody else guiding illegally) and it turns out you recorded the conversation for later use, and have him on tape saying you're fine -- it'd be a big problem for him.

He was playing it cautious -- which is what you'd expect.

No matter what he said, they'd never get a conviction for what you've described, and don't think he doesn't know that. But he wouldn't give you carte blanche either.

[Mish]

The way I see it he gave you the advice he had to give you. Don't shoot the messenger.

Pay for your gas/bait/pepsi, and divi it up as you see fit. I'm sure an F&W officer has better things to do than sort through all your receipts to make sure everything is kosher.

[bingo1010]

he doesn't have to sort through your reciepts, he just charges you and it is your job to sort through the reciepts when court day comes

[Donny Bear]

Not sure how this is a hunter host thing?? You said hes from Red Deer?? From the way I read it hes just a hunting partner....I dont know of any laws that say 2 resident hunters cant split costs what ever way they want? correct me if im wrong....

X2 Yep sounds like guys huntin together why not leave it at that? Mish is right you asked for the answer he has to give and he gave it. Hunting partners share costs thats your business till you word it wrong and make it someone elses. JMHO

[lynx]

Hunting partners can split costs! So what if one guy spent a few dollars more on some pepsi's. If everyone puts money in the jar and its taken out as needed, whats the problem?. That is how I do it. Money in the kitty, take it out to buy food, gas, and what about auto break downs? Does the owner of the auto have to fix it with his own money, while his friends get off scott free? Well I say out of the kitty and chip more in if needed. If one guy had a bottle extra to share at camp for a drink in the evening is he tipping for the hunt?

No matter what one guy puts in they are both AB residents and can spend what they wish or can afford. If you take your son who is 12 out and he doesnt have money, does he have to pay equal to what it cost you on the hunt, because he is a hunter?

If I invite someone to hunt with me for a day and he hasnt got any money to spare to get out, so what, I wanted company. Why does he need to pay me 50% of the cost that day. He has a tag to hunt, that is what counts here.

My 2cents

[Huntnut]

he doesn't have to sort through your reciepts, he just charges you and it is your job to sort through the reciepts when court day comes


Not in this country-your innocent until proven guilty. He is the one that has to prove who paid for what beyond a reasonable doubt. Not an easy thing to do I would imagine.

[Okotokian]

So if the F&W fellow determines who is guiding by experience level, then just make sure that you take one less run up there and take less out of the kitty than anyone else. That way you will actually be in a slightly negative position and clearly not making a penny. Put $400 in, took $350 out.... ;)

[Redfrog]

"No matter what one guy puts in they are both AB residents and can spend what they wish or can afford. If you take your son who is 12 out and he doesnt have money, does he have to pay equal to what it cost you on the hunt, because he is a hunter?

If I invite someone to hunt with me for a day and he hasnt got any money to spare to get out, so what, I wanted company. Why does he need to pay me 50% of the cost that day. He has a tag to hunt, that is what counts here."

I think in both these cases if you had an I.O.U with no repayment date on it, you may be O.K.:D Then years later when you need the cash you could call in the I.O.U. course by then they may have enough experience to guide you and then you could.................Oh it is all just so confusing.:confused: :confused:

[Okotokian]

I've always appreciated law enforcement types who looked at the intent of a law rather than just the letter of it and nailed you whenever they could. Perhaps this guy would charge you if he could catch you and would be in the right legally, but you are clearly not running a for-profit guiding operation. It would be too bad if a little discretion wasn't shown.

Like the cop who pulled over my 8 month pregnant wife at 7 a.m. on a rainy sunday morning for speeding. She was, no problem there, hadn't seen the speed change (100 to 80, and she was doing like 90). Then told her she was getting another ticket for not having a current year sticker on her plate (had just expired a few days before). She opens the glove box and there is the registration, stamped and paid for, legal. But she had neglected to take the sticker off and put it on the plate. Put the sticker on right there, but still gave her the ticket. Left her in tears (again, 8 months pregnant LOL). Legal? You bet, but a bit lacking in compassion. Lesson learned I guess. Stop her criminal ways LOL

[bonedogg]

Just proceed like every other year and if anything happens just get a better lawyer than theirs and your gold. bottom line.:evilgrin:

[sheephunter]

I think anytime you call F&W for clarification on a law...you are going to get it to the letter and so you should. My experience has been that officers in the field have good heads on them and aren't going to bust you for taking the neighbour's kid hunting because he doesn't pay his share or because his dad gives you a few bucks for gas.

Go looking for trouble and most often you can find it.

[redneck]

Just wondering if anyone on here has ever been asked, when stopped by a fish and wildlife officer, who paid for what? I have been hunting for 25 years and have never been asked yet. All you have to do is use a little common sense, just like the officers do.

[Walleyes]

Go looking for trouble and most often you can find it.


X2,, you obviously were looking for a fight when you phoned them up.. If you know you are rite then whats the problem,, just go about your business.. Tell you what now everybody on this board and half the fish cops in the country know you are baiting bear up around Athabasca,, real smart nothing like drawing attention to yourself.. I would be walking a fine line this spring if I were you sport...

[The Elkster]

Its also worth noting that if you ask any gov't official a question with potentially legal ramifications and they don't know the answer, 99.9 % of the time they will err on the side of caution either by dodging the question all together or giving the safe answer. Some will do some digging for you but most will just state the safe answer which saves them time and gets you off their tail.

I have made a habit of asking the same question to a few officials to be sure of the answer whether its regarding regulations or boundaries etc. If I get conflicting answers I then know to do some more research. I have had cases where I've been told this or that area is closed to hunting or camping only to find out it wasn't. Back a few years ago I also had a heck of a time confirming that I could hunt with my unloaded gun on the seat beside me...I called F&W three different sources and got a no, yes and maybe answers. I finally had to go the the RCMP firearms head guy to get a definitive "okay" for that. Not something I wanted to take a chance on with a "maybe" answer. I was really surprice F&W didn't have everyone on board with that knowledge. After what I have experienced I never assume any one official has the definitive answer anymore.

Based on past dealings I also suspect some parks officials etc downright lie or intentionally won't give a definitive answer so that certain people won't dare take the chance to do certain things in certain area's...things that are actually allowed but perhaps goes against their personal beliefs. There are plenty of parks people these days with an anti-hunting stance and sometimes even anti-fishing. The best way to find out the accuracy of an answer is to ask them to put it in writing...its amazing to watch the squirming when that request comes up. Things change quickly when people know their words will go "on the record".

[Izumi]

My advice, stop asking Law Enforcement Officers the law. It's not their job to advise you. They never studied law and are not the ones that are going to convict you of crimes. Legal advice is expensive, but its the only way you are going to get the right answers.

[Smoke-eater]

I think this dead horse needs to be put to rest. Its a non-issue. Two buddies can split costs how ever they want and you have a better chance winning the lottery then have a CO ask two resident hunters for reciepts and give them the third degree about who paid for what.....

[Walleyes]

I think this dead horse needs to be put to rest. Its a non-issue. Two buddies can split costs how ever they want and you have a better chance winning the lottery then have a CO ask two resident hunters for reciepts and give them the third degree about who paid for what.....


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: rite on smoke you got er..

[christensen]

Just wondering if anyone on here has ever been asked, when stopped by a fish and wildlife officer, who paid for what? I have been hunting for 25 years and have never been asked yet. All you have to do is use a little common sense, just like the officers do. 2x on "common sence" :lol: some things are better left unsaid.

[trouble]

Iwouldnt take this personally, the guy get paid to do a job hes given the set of rules and he explained them. Notice the fact that hes given the rules HE DOESNT MAKE THEM HE ENFORCES THEM. I dont see the problem

[JohninAB]

I see no value in threads such as these. Sometimes I wonder if people make them up just to get everyone riled up and start the next big conspiracy theory.

I say this on this thread after the original poster posted the warning he got from the mods. Makes things look so suspicious as to here, lets try this again.

If 4 or 5 buddies want to go bear hunting, and they are each running up there to restock the baits etc, then obviously no laws are being broken. If one hunter is paying the other one $100 to take them bear hunting then yes you are guiding and yes then laws are being broken. To pool money to offset costs is totally legal and acceptable as far as I know. Two buddies can go hunting and each take turns at fuelling up the truck. No brainer in my mind and any F+W officer I have ever talked to.

[Canuck44]

Ask a stupid question get a stupid answer

[lilsundance]

this thread no longer serves a purpose.