Obama's Firsts - Not Much to be Proud of Here

[JimPS]

And despite his "Firsts", he will still probably win the 2012 presidential election.

The Republican clowns Gingrich, Romney, Santorum and Paul would probably screw up even worse if they had a chance.

No wonder politicians are held in such low regard by the public.

Obama’s Firsts:

• First President to Preside Over a Cut to the Credit Rating of the United States Government

• First President to Violate the War Powers Act

• First President to Orchestrate the Sale of Murder Weapons to Mexican Drug Cartels*

• First President to issue an unlawful “recess-appointment” while the U.S. Senate remained in session (against the advice of his own Justice Department).

• First President to be Held in Contempt of Court for Illegally Obstructing Oil Drilling in the Gulf of Mexico

• First President to Defy a Federal Judge’s Court Order to Cease Implementing the ‘Health Care Reform’ Law

• First President to halt deportations of illegal aliens and grant them work permits, a form of stealth amnesty roughly equivalent to “The DREAM Act”, which could not pass Congress

• First President to Require All Americans to Purchase a Product From a Third Party

• First President to Spend a Trillion Dollars on ‘Shovel-Ready’ Jobs — and Later Admit There Was No Such Thing as Shovel-Ready Jobs

• First President to sue states for requiring valid IDs to vote, even though the same administration requires valid IDs to travel by air

• First President to Abrogate Bankruptcy Law to Turn Over Control of Companies to His Union Supporters

• First President to sign into law a bill that permits the government to “hold anyone suspected of being associated with terrorism indefinitely, without any form of due process. No indictment. No judge or jury. No evidence. No trial. Just an indefinite jail sentence.”

• First President to Bypass Congress and Implement the DREAM Act Through Executive Fiat

• First President to Threaten Insurance Companies After They Publicly Spoke out on How Obamacare Helped Cause their Rate Increases

• First President to Threaten an Auto Company (Ford) After It Publicly Mocked Bailouts of GM and Chrysler

• First President to “Order a Secret Amnesty Program that Stopped the Deportations of Illegal Immigrants Across the U.S., Including Those With Criminal Convictions”

• First President to Demand a Company Hand Over $20 Billion to One of His Political Appointees

• First President to Terminate America’s Ability to Put a Man into Space.

• First President to Encourage Racial Discrimination and Intimidation at Polling Places

• First President to Have a Law Signed By an ‘Auto-pen’ Without Being “Present”

• First President to Arbitrarily Declare an Existing Law Unconstitutional and Refuse to Enforce It

• First President to Tell a Major Manufacturing Company In Which State They Are Allowed to Locate a Factory

• First President to refuse to comply with a House Oversight Committee subpoena.

• First President to File Lawsuits Against the States He Swore an Oath to Protect (AZ, WI, OH, IN, etc.)

• First President to Withdraw an Existing Coal Permit That Had Been Properly Issued Years Ago

• First President to Fire an Inspector General of Americorps for Catching One of His Friends in a Corruption Case

• First President to Propose an Executive Order Demanding Companies Disclose Their Political Contributions to Bid on Government Contracts

• First President to allow Mexican police to conduct law enforcement activities on American soil

• First President to Golf 90 or More Times in His First Three Years in Office

Wow - what more can be said about this guy - a sad state of affairs indeed.

Jim

[Ryry4]

NOBAMA needs to go.

[eastcoast]

just skimming through a few and they are false, donèt believe everything you read on the internets.

First President to Violate the War Powers Act-lincoln suspended habeus corpus in the civil war.

First President to Defy a Federal Judge’s Court Order to Cease Implementing the ‘Health Care Reform’ Law-false it hasn't gone to court yet.


First President to halt deportations of illegal aliens and grant them work permits, a form of stealth amnesty roughly equivalent to “The DREAM Act”, which could not pass Congress-false obama has deported more illigals than any president.

First President to Require All Americans to Purchase a Product From a Third Party- I guess this is talking about healthcare which hasn't taken effet yet so another false.

First President to sign into law a bill that permits the government to “hold anyone suspected of being associated with terrorism indefinitely, without any form of due process. No indictment. No judge or jury. No evidence. No trial. Just an indefinite jail sentence.”- another absolute false, fdr has concentration camps for japanese americans, and bush jr had gitmo.


those are just the one's I know off hand, like I said don't believe chain e mails, and don't waste rational people's times by posting them here.

[thunderheart]

he is way better than what the republigoons offer... mitt or the lords number one guy here on "mearth" tricky ricky

[greylynx]

he is way better than what the republigoons offer... mitt or the lords number one guy here on "mearth" tricky ricky

You guys in B.C. don't care about gas prices? Is drug smuggling so profitable that fuel prices do not matter to you? I guess being drug smugglers is very profitable. No wonder you drug smugglers do not want a pipeline to the Prince Rupert area.

[Ryry4]

Anyone in Canada should spend some serious time in the US and see what a great job he has done to undermine the American people before the start spouting off. They might get an eye opener.

[762Russian]

Anyone in Canada should spend some serious time in the US and see what a great job he has done to undermine the American people before the start spouting off. They might get an eye opener.

Yeah, because the last 12 years has been all his fault. :rolleye2:

Obama is rubbish, but he's rubbish that inherited a sinking, rusted hulk from the demented baboon on crack that was in office for 8 years before him.

[thunderheart]

You guys in B.C. don't care about gas prices? Is drug smuggling so profitable that fuel prices do not matter to you? I guess being drug smugglers is very profitable. No wonder you drug smugglers do not want a pipeline to the Prince Rupert area.


lol ,, simply my opinions friend .. just like yours
in my humble opinion very few polititions are worth the powder.

personally i want the pipelines...and gas prices? well i pay 134.9 and they say 1.70 by summer wahooooo
its all a game .. again simply my 1.5 cents. but please dont refer to me as a drug smuggler lol ...thats just not nice

have a good day unless you have other plans :)

[Ryry4]

Yeah, because the last 12 years has been all his fault. :rolleye2:

Obama is rubbish, but he's rubbish that inherited a sinking, rusted hulk from the demented baboon on crack that was in office for 8 years before him.

Nope but the last three sure were. Regardless of what was done before him, he has done absolutely nothing to make things better. He has done a good job of digging the hole bigger, spitting on the constitution and dividing the country.

[TreeGuy]

Nope but the last three sure were. Regardless of what was done before him, he has done absolutely nothing to make things better. He has done a good job of digging the hole bigger, spitting on the constitution and dividing the country.

X2

Typical liberal POS. Suprised he hasn't been.......

[Ryry4]

X2

Typical liberal POS. Suprised he hasn't been.......

If that would have happened the whole country would have imploded. Unfortunately I think he's going to get re-elected. At least this time he won't have a majority in the house and senate.

Hope and Change alright. But now the people know what kind of hope and change he meant.

[darius]

X2

Typical liberal POS. Suprised he hasn't been.......

comment of the year !

to even infer something like this says a lot about you sir .

oh , and I don 't support his politics either .

he was voted in , by the citizens of that country !

[Ryry4]

Actually I'm surprised he hasn't been either. The amount of threats he got when he was first elected was huge. He had more security around him than any other president in history from what I know.

[unclebuck]

Allison's political compatriot!!! Need more be said.

[TreeGuy]

comment of the year !

to even infer something like this says a lot about you sir .

oh , and I don 't support his politics either .

he was voted in , by the citizens of that country !

Likely says more about YOU than me. :lol:

[bessiedog]

Tree... your getting more and more down RIGHT crusty lately. Dissapointing.
I tend to valueyour opinion

Somethings pretty wrong when you start spouting that kind of hate based on what simple political beliefs.

Ryry4 you gotta admit... the problem started wayyyyy before bambam got control of the ship..... and the problems are sooo big / mixed that no sane person can really believe that the lil ole prez can fix stuff in 3 years...
Really?

[darius]

Likely says more about YOU than me. :lol:

oh- and when you refer to someone as a "pos ' because of there political stripe ?

you should take a look in the mirror and re -evaluate things . . :(

[Ryry4]

oh- and when you refer to someone as a "pos ' because of there political stripe ?

you should take a look in the mirror and re -evaluate things . . :(

Like you did before the edit?

[darius]

Like you did before the edit?

nice try ! keep it classy :)

[Ryry4]

Tree... your getting more and more down RIGHT crusty lately. Dissapointing.
I tend to valueyour opinion

Somethings pretty wrong when you start spouting that kind of hate based on what simple political beliefs.

Ryry4 you gotta admit... the problem started wayyyyy before bambam got control of the ship..... and the problems are sooo big / mixed that no sane person can really believe that the lil ole prez can fix stuff in 3 years...
Really?

I don't think tree was spouting hate. And political beliefs aren't simple.

I'll admit that the problem started way back. But what has this president done to correct those problems? Nothing. It's got to start somewhere, and it sure wasn't with Mr. Hope and Change.

[Ryry4]

nice try ! keep it classy :)

Just making a simple observation. ;)

[bessiedog]

Political culture.. that is.
I personally think that the US system of politics has been nicely hamstrung simply by two things:

1. Campaign donation limits.
2. Lobby interestsand their 'by the balls' hold on the elected.

I absolutely hate the fed libs.... but shifty face did put in limits on political donations per person.

Killed the libs fundraising efforts and handed the next three elections to the consies...
Good move for democracy..

People must have the power.

[hayseed]

X2

Typical liberal POS. Suprised he hasn't been.......

Agree x 100000.....darius, mom says its bed time...

[bb356]

lol ,, simply my opinions friend .. just like yours
in my humble opinion very few polititions are worth the powder.

personally i want the pipelines...and gas prices? well i pay 134.9 and they say 1.70 by summer wahooooo
its all a game .. again simply my 1.5 cents. but please dont refer to me as a drug smuggler lol ...thats just not nice

have a good day unless you have other plans :)

Thanks Thunder .............. you can stop in for a moose burger and a pop anytime !!! :)

[dale7637]

This one will be a good read.
I predict 4 pages before supper tomorrow.

[TreeGuy]

Tree... your getting more and more down RIGHT crusty lately. Dissapointing.
I tend to valueyour opinion.

Likewise, Bessie. :)

And you do have a point. Been a weird winter....

With that being said, never before has the United States needed a leader like obama promised to be. Agree/disagree with his politics or not, he has been an abject failure.

I personally consider him a liberal POS, but fair is fair when it comes down to responsible decision-making that sets partisianism (is that even a word?) aside for the greater good. It really hasn't happened under this administration.

One year of transition. One of 'work' and two of campaigning on his 'record'.


$20 says he doesn't get in again. :D

[eastcoast]

Likewise, Bessie. :)

And you do have a point. Been a weird winter....

With that being said, never before has the United States needed a leader like obama promised to be. Agree/disagree with his politics or not, he has been an abject failure.

I personally consider him a liberal POS, but fair is fair when it comes down to responsible decision-making that sets partisianism (is that even a word?) aside for the greater good. It really hasn't happened under this administration.

One year of transition. One of 'work' and two of campaigning on his 'record'.


$20 says he doesn't get in again. :D

your on-easy $20 for me, as bad as obama is the competition is even worse.

[Sneeze]

Can I take that bet Tree?

I personally hope he gets in again. It needs to get much worse in America before they endorse real change. The establishment Republican Romney would just be more of the status quo, but at a slower pace then Obama.

Obama has to totally wreck it before people start waking up.

[darius]

Can I take that bet Tree?

I personally hope he gets in again. It needs to get much worse in America before they endorse real change. The establishment Republican Romney would just be more of the status quo, but at a slower pace then Obama.

Obama has to totally wreck it before people start waking up.

good points .

[TreeGuy]

Sure....why not? :)

Realistically, the political divide is a razor thin margin. The only tangible thing that obama has created is disillusion in the quirky demographic that managed to not be stoned long enough to make it to the polls. Ain't gonna happen this go-round.

[Rocky7]

Somethings pretty wrong when you start spouting that kind of hate based on what simple political beliefs.

Something is pretty wrong when a simple list of negative "firsts" is labelled "hate".

Something is pretty wrong when an opponent's political philosophy is dismissed as "simple", without explanation.

And something is really wrong when a sizeable part of the population believes that having a closed mind and harbouring Progressive bigotry amounts to some form of superior thinking and values.

[Rocky7]

I'll admit that the problem started way back. But what has this president done to correct those problems? Nothing.

The corrections you have in mind were never on his radar.

Radicals welcome crisis. It's the easiest time to move an entire society to a place they don't want to go. Of course, you can't let them know what you're really doing or they won't step where you tell them to step.

We ought to have some concern. Obama is not good for Canada. Gingrich or Romney would be much better; probably Romney slightly more so. Santorum would be better, but he has a protectionist streak.

A second term Obama will leave a lot of wreckage.

[Big Daddy Badger]

You guys in B.C. don't care about gas prices? Is drug smuggling so profitable that fuel prices do not matter to you? I guess being drug smugglers is very profitable. No wonder you drug smugglers do not want a pipeline to the Prince Rupert area.

Maybe they care about a salmon fishery.... realize that most of the jobs are going to be filled from out of province and most of the royalties will head that way to.
And to label the whole population as drug smugglers is just plain crappy.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Nope but the last three sure were. Regardless of what was done before him, he has done absolutely nothing to make things better. He has done a good job of digging the hole bigger, spitting on the constitution and dividing the country.

You think he has a magic wand?
He can just wave it in the air and fix all the problems in the world?
Or the mess he inherited?

It takes a lot longer to build something than to tear it down and my guess is...the US will still be paying for GWB's orgy of mismanagement a decade from now.

I know the guy has been a bit of a disappointment and he has not kept some key promises but that is par for course with every politician and at least... he's been a bit more up front than the last guy.

[bradleyk]

You think he has a magic wand?
He can just wave it in the air and fix all the problems in the world?
Or the mess he inherited?


I sure don't! But he promised it, said he could, and millions of Americans were deluded enough to believe him and voted for his brand of "change". Go back and listen to some of his early speeches. He said he was going to fix it all! All the mess those Republicans left for the all wise Democrats to clean up. Hasn't panned out that way. Now all the democrats and supporters say "gee, you can't fix it all in one term! Give him and second and this time he'll really fix it all! We mean it this time!"

:snapoutofit:

[eastcoast]

Sure....why not? :)

Realistically, the political divide is a razor thin margin. The only tangible thing that obama has created is disillusion in the quirky demographic that managed to not be stoned long enough to make it to the polls. Ain't gonna happen this go-round.

the right wing is going hard after mexicans, and recently after women, they are a south based party at best right now, they have little chance to beat obama, both parties start at 40% each and there are 20% independants, women vote more than men, latinos are the fastest growing demographic aswell, it's like the old joke being chased by a bear I don't have to be faster than the bear I just have to be faster than you, obama doesn't have to be great he just has to be a better choice than romney, plus I suspect a few pictures of bin laden will surface a couple days before the election.

[Big Daddy Badger]

I sure don't! But he promised it, said he could, and millions of Americans were deluded enough to believe him and voted for his brand of "change". Go back and listen to some of his early speeches. He said he was going to fix it all! All the mess those Republicans left for the all wise Democrats to clean up. Hasn't panned out that way. Now all the democrats and supporters say "gee, you can't fix it all in one term! Give him and second and this time he'll really fix it all! We mean it this time!"

:snapoutofit:

Exactly but would any of the other choices the voters had have done any better?

It's all well and fine to point out the guys failings but I doubt that the US would be any further ahead right now if one of the other potential candidates Republican or Democrat had won.
Sure things might look different but I'm sure that there would still be a list of broken promises very similar to the one they have now... it would just be a different list.

My thought is the guy got elected at a time when it would be almost impossible to not fail on many issues because of the scope and size of the problems.

To be honest... watching that election campaign and now the recent Republican primaries... a couple thoughts have crossed my mind.

First...it seemed as though McCain almost bailed during that campaign.
He and Palin just seemed to run out of steam at the last minute and it was almost as though they came to the realization that being elected at this time would not serve the parties long term interest... or their own.

Now... when one looks at who is/has been running for the Republican candidacy....you really need to ask yourself.... Are those guys really the best that the Republican party has to offer?
Honestly... I find it hard to believe that the only thing that party has to offer is an adulterer with a sketchy track record...a flip flopper that changes his convictions daily and an almost fanatical fundamentalist Christian that sees no problem with alienating himself from approximately half the population... ie... women.
I find it pretty hard to believe that there isn't a single Republican out there that is genuine... honest... articulate... charismatic... has access to funding and isn't barking mad.

It is almost as if the Republican party is sabotaging themselves because they know they don't want to be in the hot seat during this period of recovery.
Obviously it is to the parties advantage to be the opposition when times are tough. They can sit back and snipe while secure in the knowledge that no one actually expects them to do anything more than that.

I sure wouldn't have wanted to be the US President after GWB... and who in their right mind would until after the nation recovers?

[Rocky7]

I sure wouldn't have wanted to be the US President after GWB... and who in their right mind would until after the nation recovers?

Are you aware that GWB tried to reform Fannie/Freddie (the trigger for the meltdown) years ago because he thought they were lending to people who could not hope to ever pay the loan and a Democratic Congress led by Barney Rubble shot it down? Something about everyone having a "right" to own a home.

Just sayin'.

[bessiedog]

So im off my typing game last two days..... did go fishin though.
:)

Dude.... fanny freddy had next to nothing to do with triggering the meltdown......... b... a....n....k...s..... research assest backed corporate paper..... find out who's bright idea it was to go give motgages to idiots as a matter of policy......


Rockey, mebee i clarify... i was keying inon POS... Obama is justa politician that leveraged new media to connect to section of voters we all need to engage.

Heck, i even was slightlyimpressed by they yes we can attitude..which was the only kinof msg one could sell to the younger voter.... but then my evil pizsy drown kitten pessimist nature came back and ( i think it was 83 tuesdays ago) then i saw it as a sales tactic and it was sooo muchbunk.

Sneeze is right..... the sit needs to get way way worse they change so e fundimentals and get their houses back from big interests. Can you say default???

And really.........really...... did you REALLY just stick up for GWB???

Itmust bethe t3s, but Bwahahahah!!!! Ooohahahaha!!! Stop stop it! My head! Aaaaahahahah!

BTW... hold your nose and read easties firstpost...... hes right..... sooooomuch of that is sooooo wrong factually.

[Rocky7]

And really.........really...... did you REALLY just stick up for GWB???

Yes. I go with the facts. Not ideology, not promises, not optics, not skin colour, not MSM picks, not fear mongers, not PC stuff and not smiles. Facts.

And I don't look to political leaders for my moral compass.

Is that a sin?

[bradleyk]

I sure wouldn't have wanted to be the US President after GWB... and who in their right mind would until after the nation recovers?

I'll take that one step further. I wouldn't want to EVER be the US president. So much stress for such little $$. Life constantly under a microscope. Can't figure out why anyone would want the job. :scared0018:

[bessiedog]

rock

You and i are the sMe on the moral compas regard....:) good on you.


Freddy fanny was and is a minor footnote towards the cause of the financial meltdown.

Again, try to find the facts around the following.... read a few sourcez:

Who spawned the sub prime mortgage idea?

Who allowed for grey and dark zone markets whereby debt products such as asset backed corporate paper got invented and traded?

Which president (before the crisis) expanded the us debt greater than any other president in history?

That'd be you texas buddy der boyo.

Obama hasnt done much at all..... and i dont support him cause he decided he could just go play the hill game like everyone else......sellout.

I kinof see him like the nerdy kid in the locker room who tells the boys to smarten up or hell tell! He got pantsed! Couple o times now. He dosent have the stones or the resources to do whzt needs to be done on the hill.

Not sure if anyone does/can.

Well see.

[Rocky7]

Who allowed for grey and dark zone markets whereby debt products such as asset backed corporate paper got invented and traded?

That bit would be the regulators who failed to enforce regulations they already had.

A bunch of junk mortgages backed by the U.S. Gov't were securitized and peddled by Leman Bros. etc. You could look at just the securitization phase and blame that only; or you could ask "How the heck did the U.S. government ever come to back junk mortgages in the first place?" That's where I find Barney Rubble, not GWB.

Imagine CMHC offering 100 yr. mortgages to people who work at Wal-Mart so they can buy 4 level splits with attached garages. With no downpayment. GWB tried to stop it. Maybe he didn't try hard enuf, but he did try.

Blame GWB for everything if it floats your boat, I guess. It worked for Obama. Still does in some circles.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Are you aware that GWB tried to reform Fannie/Freddie (the trigger for the meltdown) years ago because he thought they were lending to people who could not hope to ever pay the loan and a Democratic Congress led by Barney Rubble shot it down? Something about everyone having a "right" to own a home.

Just sayin'.


Well then...lets add that to his list of failures.

Obviously if we don't give points to Obama for trying but failing we shouldn't give them to anyone else for what they try but fail to do either.

Obviously there is a difference between responsibility and fault.
One might reasonably expect presidents to accept responsibility for things but it doesn't always follow that they are also at fault.

If the current President is both responsible and at fault for everything that goes wrong during his administration the last one should also be held responsible and at fault for what went wrong during his presidency.

Right?

So...
If Obama is at fault because the economy hasn't recovered.
Bush is at fault for its failure.
It would also follow that he is at fault for the conflicts and the events leading to them in SW Asia right now.
The same ones that the current President is at fault for not resolving.

Unless of course we only apply that rule to Democrates...

Just seems a bit too partisan to expect any president regardless of his party to be able to fix much of anything in a single term that inherited conflicts in 2 countries... a global economic crisis... an overwhelming perception of imminent attack from all quarters....a failed domestic banking system and such massive unemployment.

Does anyone really believe that McCain and Palin could have done much better if presented with the same challenges?

There is plenty to complain about....I'll give you that but... I rather doubt there'd be less to complain about if the other guys had won.

[TreeGuy]

Entirely off topic but.....

Bessie, go to bed man. You typing has me giggling my arse off right now! :lol:

[bessiedog]

Ill do your research for ya if ya like.. it goes roughly like this.

Greenspan and Bernanke were mentored quite a bit by Ayn Rand.

These guys have been guiding monetary and fiscal policy since the 1990s...
When GWD gave them a bit more free reign, they kept grey-dark zones UNREGULATED b/cof ideological motivations...... keep the market freee..... its all good.

These guys serve at the pleasure of the Prezzie.... and Bush sr, Wild willy, and gWB all knew about it. gWB was counting on sub prime housing booms to offset any economic problems that the dot com burst and 9/11 might bring.........and it worked........ untill 2007 when people realized that poor people can,t do mortgages.......
And corporations shouldn't just let their bankers sell them any ole investment products.

Greenspan and Rand have both been quoted in front of congressional panels stating that

1. Their ideology approach was ill considered ( please note... im not bashing capitalsm here and diefying the left....far from it).


2. they kept to their ideological approach due to approvals from the whitehouse.

Whether you like it or not.... sometimes bankers need to be controlled. Which means the odd law now and then.

[Rocky7]

Obviously if we don't give points to Obama for trying but failing we shouldn't give them to anyone else for what they try but fail to do either.

If he had tried to ignite the capitalist system that is the U.S., I would give him credit. He didn't.

He has used the crisis to change it into a bigger Nanny State. He has used the crisis to increase his executive power. He has done end runs around the democratic process to enforce his will. He has given huge money to vested interests that will profit from his Statist ideology. Check the list posted by the OP.

And, having done what he's done, he has the unmitigated gall to say that he speaks for the middle class. If that is honest, all I can say is that he has in mind a "middle class" unlike anything we have ever known.

So... If Obama is at fault because the economy hasn't recovered.
Bush is at fault for its failure.

Your reasoning is based on false premises. See my comment about GWB trying to reform the inflated housing market, for example. That was blocked by the same people who formed Obama's fan club. They are the same Statist bunch.

I agree about not reflexively blaming whoever is in the White House, and I don't. Neither do I reflexively give that person credit.

I will give Obama credit for pulling the trigger on OBL. But then, he undoes it all by immediately taking a victory lap and thereby rendering USELESS all the data on the hard drives captured by Seal Team 6. I conclude that he never really gave a rat's ***** about doing what was right or put his country ahead of his own personal fortunes; he rolled the dice in the hopes that he could improve his own personal fortunes and this is confirmed by his immediate disclosure of the operation before the military could use those hard drives to get further into Al Q and maybe pick off some more of the leadership before they knew that their organization was compromised.

Does anyone really believe that McCain and Palin could have done much better if presented with the same challenges?

I don't have strong feelings either way about McCain, you might be right. I think he'd have been much better, but maybe not by much. He's been a little dopey on some issues, insightful on others. Certainly, if he had borrowed trillions from the Chinese to create more dependency and more government regulation and done as little to get out of the private sector's way, he would be open to the same criticism.

Palin was a game-changer. That was the real missed opportunity in that election.

Let the howls begin......:fighting0074:

[Rocky7]

.... sometimes bankers need to be controlled. Which means the odd law now and then.

Maybe you should do a bit of research into the banking and securities laws they already had and did not enforce. I believe that would change your extreme perspective, you would better understand my comments and you would not assume I advocate for no control.

[bessiedog]

Typing and t3sssss

Bbbad combo.... plus im trying out this dangfangled newtablet.... it sukz.

Rocky..... who wuz minding the store? The fed didnt pusue b/c who watches da banks?
Who be the attourney general...? Who hired himher?

Cmon...

Anyhoo.... im done typing.

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=CA#/results?q=keynes%20and%20hayek%20second%20round

Its kindof related.... and funny as all get out!

Cheerz rock!:)

[Big Daddy Badger]

If he had tried to ignite the capitalist system that is the U.S., I would give him credit. He didn't.

He has used the crisis to change it into a bigger Nanny State. He has used the crisis to increase his executive power. He has done end runs around the democratic process to enforce his will. He has given huge money to vested interests that will profit from his Statist ideology. Check the list posted by the OP.

And, having done what he's done, he has the unmitigated gall to say that he speaks for the middle class. If that is honest, all I can say is that he has in mind a "middle class" unlike anything we have ever known.



Your reasoning is based on false premises. See my comment about GWB trying to reform the inflated housing market, for example. That was blocked by the same people who formed Obama's fan club. They are the same Statist bunch.

I agree about not reflexively blaming whoever is in the White House, and I don't. Neither do I reflexively give that person credit.

I will give Obama credit for pulling the trigger on OBL. But then, he undoes it all by immediately taking a victory lap and thereby rendering USELESS all the data on the hard drives captured by Seal Team 6. I conclude that he never really gave a rat's ***** about doing what was right or put his country ahead of his own personal fortunes; he rolled the dice in the hopes that he could improve his own personal fortunes and this is confirmed by his immediate disclosure of the operation before the military could use those hard drives to get further into Al Q and maybe pick off some more of the leadership before they knew that their organization was compromised.



I don't have strong feelings either way about McCain, you might be right. I think he'd have been much better, but maybe not by much. He's been a little dopey on some issues, insightful on others. Certainly, if he had borrowed trillions from the Chinese to create more dependency and more government regulation and done as little to get out of the private sector's way, he would be open to the same criticism.

Palin was a game-changer. That was the real missed opportunity in that election.

Let the howls begin......:fighting0074:

To be honest...I think McCain may have been the better man... but that his running mate was nothing more than a nice looking and naive bit of fluff.

Failure is failure... and that was my point.
Bush had challenges that he failed to overcome and so has his replacement.
Everyone has excuses.

The problem is that while it may be true that there have been some socialist moves on the past of Obama... Bush is responsible for taking the US perilously close to becoming a fascist police state.
Alongside that is the confusion between social programs or social responsibility and communism.
Not everything state run is bad.

For instance a well administrated national health care system can pay for itself through preventing illness and lost labour.

It's no wonder everything is such a mess.

People have been confronted with all sorts of attacks against the very things that define the nation. And... those attacks have come from all quarters.

It just seems like the day of the politician that could inspire a whole nation is gone.

At one time... win or lose everyone would get behind their president.
Now... people are so polarized that it's always the first day after election day. The campaign never stops.

Neither side wants to even try to work with the other and nobody can meet in the middle without being viewed as a trader or an enemy.

A while back I saw an interview with an author that was the child of a White House insider when Nixon was president.

She recalled that then...Democrats and Republicans .... would socialize and brainstorm together between elections. They were friendly rivals and could put the politics aside for the sake of the nation.

Now... they almost demand separate washrooms in public buildings... they sling mud and express absolute hatred... it's ridiculous.

Unfortunately the same trend is beginning to reveal itself here.

[Rocky7]

Now... they almost demand separate washrooms in public buildings... they sling mud and express absolute hatred... it's ridiculous.

Unfortunately the same trend is beginning to reveal itself here.

I agree that it's unfortunate.

That split originates on the Left. It seems there is now a generation of social engineers who insist on bringing propaganda, creative facts and revisionist history to the table. It's just not possible to have rational discussions with left wing zealots. I see far less of that among conservatives. Far less.

The MSM share the blame, too. Almost none of them are trustworthy any more. Here, it's the CBC followed by Global. There, it's a whole host led by MSNBC. We both need far fewer social engineers and a lot more open-minded, objective journalists who leave their ideology at home.

[thunderheart]

Thanks Thunder .............. you can stop in for a moose burger and a pop anytime !!! :) count on that buddy .. looking forward to the visits

[Big Daddy Badger]

I agree that it's unfortunate.

That split originates on the Left. It seems there is now a generation of social engineers who insist on bringing propaganda, creative facts and revisionist history to the table. It's just not possible to have rational discussions with left wing zealots. I see far less of that among conservatives. Far less.

The MSM share the blame, too. Almost none of them are trustworthy any more. Here, it's the CBC followed by Global. There, it's a whole host led by MSNBC. We both need far fewer social engineers and a lot more open-minded, objective journalists who leave their ideology at home.

Oh please... that is so school yard....
Well THEY started it....

C'mon you know better than that...the real BS along those lines started with guys like Limbaugh and the neo-conservatives... and then everybody dropped gloves and went at it in very short order.
I doubt anybody really even knows who or when that line got crossed but seems to me the worst of it always comes from the most conservative among us.

[Rocky7]

Oh please... that is so school yard.......the real BS along those lines started with guys like Limbaugh and the neo-conservatives... but seems to me the worst of it always comes from the most conservative among us.

The Left makes a full-length feature movie about assassinating President Bush, complete with "how to" suggestions, and you foam at the mouth about a right-wing radio entertainer named Limbaugh!

You make my point, don't you?

[762Russian]

Entertainer?

Really?

I suppose watching a man vomit liquid hate all over everything can be kind of fun... in a Jeffrey Dahmer kind of way.

[Rocky7]

Entertainer?

Really?

I suppose watching a man vomit liquid hate all over everything can be kind of fun... in a Jeffrey Dahmer kind of way.

Pssst: He's on radio.

[Big Daddy Badger]

The Left makes a full-length feature movie about assassinating President Bush, complete with "how to" suggestions, and you foam at the mouth about a right-wing radio entertainer named Limbaugh!

You make my point, don't you?

Hardly...
Hardly foaming at the mouth either.

What was a polite bit of banter and a debate regarding the merits of both sides switches into a personal attack and is reduced to suggestions that I'm...mad?

Now...did I do that to you?
Nope.
Touche
Thanks for proving my point.

Oh and...

That was a British Movie and it was a"mockumentary".

Now I can't say for sure that the folks that made it aren't left leaning but I'm pretty darn sure none of em belong to the US Democratic Party.

Was it poor taste?
Sure but then that seems par for course since reality TV became so popular.

What about some of the stunts pulled by Republicans on national TV...like superimposing cross hairs over Democrats... as I recall that may have planted a seed that led to an incident...

Lots of blame to go around... the whole works of em have been slinging mud.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Pssst: He's on radio.
I still disagree but that WAS funny....lol

[762Russian]

Pssst: He's on radio.

Pssst, he has videos (http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/videos) for us folks who won't pay to listen to his filth.

[Okotokian]

Yes. I go with the facts. Not ideology, not promises, not optics, not skin colour, not MSM picks, not fear mongers, not PC stuff and not smiles. Facts.



Fair enough Rocky. I can respect that. But a truly fair-minded person committed to facts would have to acknowledge that the list the OP put up to start this was in large part fictional or intentionally told half the story, right? Right?

Half of me wonders why we are even bothering. I thought this was an outdoor board... and a Canadian one at that. Why do so many feel the need to start rants (left and right) about AMERICAN politics? If there are some impacts to Canadian life then by all mean spell them out, otherwise, what drives you to post on the AO board?

[rugatika]

rock

You and i are the sMe on the moral compas regard....:) good on you.


Freddy fanny was and is a minor footnote towards the cause of the financial meltdown.

Again, try to find the facts around the following.... read a few sourcez:

Who spawned the sub prime mortgage idea?

Who allowed for grey and dark zone markets whereby debt products such as asset backed corporate paper got invented and traded?

Which president (before the crisis) expanded the us debt greater than any other president in history?

That'd be you texas buddy der boyo.

Obama hasnt done much at all..... and i dont support him cause he decided he could just go play the hill game like everyone else......sellout.

I kinof see him like the nerdy kid in the locker room who tells the boys to smarten up or hell tell! He got pantsed! Couple o times now. He dosent have the stones or the resources to do whzt needs to be done on the hill.

Not sure if anyone does/can.

Well see.

OK...post up the facts with links.

I've put up links and facts several times, showing the toxic debt trading was spawned by democrats under Clinton, Bush warning of the collapse and telling congress to look into new regs. etc etc...yet everytime, someone comes on here and says "Bush did it" without any evidence. Lets see some facts.

The real bottom line fault lays with Congress and ultimately, the voters. Nobody wants to give up their entitlement programs and for the most part refuse to vote for a politician that promises to slash spending on their programs.

I know everyone likes to hate on Bush, and to my mind he was hardly a fiscal scrooge, but he definitely does not deserve the scorn and blame the left heaps on him for the current recession.

[rugatika]

Fair enough Rocky. I can respect that. But a truly fair-minded person committed to facts would have to acknowledge that the list the OP put up to start this was in large part fictional or intentionally told half the story, right? Right?

Half of me wonders why we are even bothering. I thought this was an outdoor board... and a Canadian one at that. Why do so many feel the need to start rants (left and right) about AMERICAN politics? If there are some impacts to Canadian life then by all mean spell them out, otherwise, what drives you to post on the AO board?

So are you saying you will be sticking to posting on outdoor posts related to Canada only, now? How was the list fictional?

[darius]

Fair enough Rocky. I can respect that. But a truly fair-minded person committed to facts would have to acknowledge that the list the OP put up to start this was in large part fictional or intentionally told half the story, right? Right?

Half of me wonders why we are even bothering. I thought this was an outdoor board... and a Canadian one at that. Why do so many feel the need to start rants (left and right) about AMERICAN politics? If there are some impacts to Canadian life then by all mean spell them out, otherwise, what drives you to post on the AO board?

you don 't think american politics impact our life in canada ?

you thought this an outdoor board ?

most of your post have zero to do with the outdoors ..:bad_boys_20:

[Arachnodisiac]

I've been woefully disappointed by Obama's performance.

Practically, there is very little difference between the Republican and Democrat parties. Partisan politics is used to divide and distract the people on (mostly) irrelevant moral issues such as abortion gay marriage.

All the while, the military and corporate hegemony continue unabated.

One look at the lack of foreign policy discussion during debates and public discourse during the 2004 election in light of world events at the time is evidence that most Americans have neither the stomach or the brain to expect, demand or even recognize any meaningful change within their political system.

Unfortunately, I fear our Canada is heading down that same road.

[Okotokian]

So are you saying you will be sticking to posting on outdoor posts related to Canada only, now? How was the list fictional?

LOL no.... I'm just wondering why someone would INITIATE one.... But I do see the contradiction in my own post... I do get sucked in when I see idiotic statements in a non-outdoor thread.

[rugatika]

LOL no.... I'm just wondering why someone would INITIATE one.... But I do see the contradiction in my own post... I do get sucked in when I see idiotic statements in a non-outdoor thread.

As do I, as do I. :)

[bessiedog]

Politifacts.com

Or instead of going to your groupthink sites... try googling

Raising of debt ceiling by president

Or increase os debt by president....

the stimulus stuff (the big stuff) was already started by gwb and bambam inherited a keynsian attempt to keep the system stable......he's sticking with it and well all be paying for it i figure.

I dont approve of it. But to hit obama with this is pretty weak sauce Rug.

Now parry my thrust w/out using smalldeadanimals or other predigested ready to serve righty tight tripe.....

Again..... obama is a huge dissappointment, but like i said before.... this is a systemic problem more than an idology thing. Im not really sold on keynsian stuff.

Btw.... did anyone check that youtube i posted? Its a nerdy gas!

[eastcoast]

And despite his "Firsts", he will still probably win the 2012 presidential election.

The Republican clowns Gingrich, Romney, Santorum and Paul would probably screw up even worse if they had a chance.

No wonder politicians are held in such low regard by the public.

Obama’s Firsts:

• First President to Preside Over a Cut to the Credit Rating of the United States Government

• First President to Violate the War Powers Act

• First President to Orchestrate the Sale of Murder Weapons to Mexican Drug Cartels*

• First President to issue an unlawful “recess-appointment” while the U.S. Senate remained in session (against the advice of his own Justice Department).

• First President to be Held in Contempt of Court for Illegally Obstructing Oil Drilling in the Gulf of Mexico

• First President to Defy a Federal Judge’s Court Order to Cease Implementing the ‘Health Care Reform’ Law

• First President to halt deportations of illegal aliens and grant them work permits, a form of stealth amnesty roughly equivalent to “The DREAM Act”, which could not pass Congress

• First President to Require All Americans to Purchase a Product From a Third Party

• First President to Spend a Trillion Dollars on ‘Shovel-Ready’ Jobs — and Later Admit There Was No Such Thing as Shovel-Ready Jobs

• First President to sue states for requiring valid IDs to vote, even though the same administration requires valid IDs to travel by air

• First President to Abrogate Bankruptcy Law to Turn Over Control of Companies to His Union Supporters

• First President to sign into law a bill that permits the government to “hold anyone suspected of being associated with terrorism indefinitely, without any form of due process. No indictment. No judge or jury. No evidence. No trial. Just an indefinite jail sentence.”

• First President to Bypass Congress and Implement the DREAM Act Through Executive Fiat

• First President to Threaten Insurance Companies After They Publicly Spoke out on How Obamacare Helped Cause their Rate Increases

• First President to Threaten an Auto Company (Ford) After It Publicly Mocked Bailouts of GM and Chrysler

• First President to “Order a Secret Amnesty Program that Stopped the Deportations of Illegal Immigrants Across the U.S., Including Those With Criminal Convictions”

• First President to Demand a Company Hand Over $20 Billion to One of His Political Appointees

• First President to Terminate America’s Ability to Put a Man into Space.

• First President to Encourage Racial Discrimination and Intimidation at Polling Places

• First President to Have a Law Signed By an ‘Auto-pen’ Without Being “Present”

• First President to Arbitrarily Declare an Existing Law Unconstitutional and Refuse to Enforce It

• First President to Tell a Major Manufacturing Company In Which State They Are Allowed to Locate a Factory

• First President to refuse to comply with a House Oversight Committee subpoena.

• First President to File Lawsuits Against the States He Swore an Oath to Protect (AZ, WI, OH, IN, etc.)

• First President to Withdraw an Existing Coal Permit That Had Been Properly Issued Years Ago

• First President to Fire an Inspector General of Americorps for Catching One of His Friends in a Corruption Case

• First President to Propose an Executive Order Demanding Companies Disclose Their Political Contributions to Bid on Government Contracts

• First President to allow Mexican police to conduct law enforcement activities on American soil

• First President to Golf 90 or More Times in His First Three Years in Office

Wow - what more can be said about this guy - a sad state of affairs indeed.

Jim

here il try and help you out a little bit.

First President to violate the War Powers Act. Fiction!The War Powers Resolution of 1973 became federal law to prevent a president from committing the United States to an armed conflict without the approval from Congress. This law requires the President to notify Congress within 48 hours of committing U.S. armed forces to military action. It also limits U.S. involvement to no more than 60 days. In 2011 President Obama bypassed congressional approval for going into Libya, but he was not the first U.S. President to do so. The War Powers Resolution was first disregarded by President Clinton in 1999, during the bombing campaign in Kosovo



First President to defy a Federal Judges court order to cease implementing the Health Care Reform Law.- Fiction!
The constitutionality of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act has been questioned by several courts in various states in the US since it was passed into law in March 21, 2010. According to an August 12, 2011 article in Reuters a U.S. Appeals Court for the 11th Circuit, based in Atlanta ruled that it was unconstitutional to require all Americans to buy insurance or face a penalty but it unanimously reversed a lower court decision that threw out the entire law.

First President to require all Americans to purchase a product from a third party. - Too Vague to investigate.
We are not sure of what policy this is related to.

First President to spend a trillion dollars on shovel-ready jobs and later admit there was no such thing as shovel-ready jobs.- Inaccurate!
According to a September 26, 2011 article in Politico, President Obama did use the term "Shovel Ready Jobs" in a plan to fund $50 billion in improvements to highways, transit systems, railways and aviation. The idea was to put Americans back to work by construction upgrades to 150,000 miles of road, 4,000 miles of train tracks, 150 miles of airport runways and the nation’s air traffic control system. Political reported that experts did not see the jobs being as shovel ready as one would think as " A tremendous amount of money and time is needed to get a project through a detailed design process, permitting, environmental hurdles, public hearings and land acquisition."

First President to abrogate bankruptcy law to turn over control of companies to his union supporters.- Under Investigation

First President to by-pass Congress and implement the Dream Act through executive fiat. Fiction!
There was no such Executive Order. Click for our findings.

First President to order a secret amnesty program that stopped the deportation of illegal immigrants across the U.S. , including those with criminal convictions- Fiction!
This was not done is secret and according to an August 18, 2011 ABC News report, "The Obama administration announced a major change in policy for thousands of illegal immigrants going through deportation proceedings. They now may be able to stay in the country. There are currently 300,000 deportation cases making their way through the federal immigration courts, but under the new policy immigrants classified as low-priority cases could be granted a stay and a chance to apply for a work permit."

First President to terminate Americas ability to put a man in space. Fiction!
According to the St. Petersburg Times PolitiFact Check site, "Richard Nixon, perhaps in conjunction with Gerald Ford, would be the one to qualify for the unwanted title of "first president to terminate America’s ability to put a man in space" -- not Obama." The Apollo program ended in 1975 and had a five year gap in space launches until the Space Shuttle program was in full operation.

First President to arbitrarily declare an existing law unconstitutional and refuse to enforce it.- Too Vague to investigate.
We are not sure of what policy this is related to.

First President to file lawsuits against the states he swore an oath to protect (AZ, WI, OH, IN)- Fiction!
The oath of the President of the United States does not have any conditions to protect U.S. States. The oath of office is in the U.S. Constitution and it says, "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

First President to golf 73 separate times in his first two and a half years in office.- Inaccurate!
According to a June 26, 2011 White House Dossier article, written by veteran White House reporter Keith Koffler, President Obama played his 75th golf game since being sworn into office. No doubt at the time of this writing the number is greater.According to an October 24, 2009 article in Politico, Obama was in office about 10 months when he played his 24th golf game, tying his predecessor, G. W. Bush, for the number of golf games. It took Bush almost 3 years to play that number of games.

First President to hide his medical, educational and travel records.- Fiction!
There are no U.S. laws stating that a U.S. President or presidential candidate disclose his medical or educational background. In his books, Barack Obama wrote about his life in Indonesia. Questions about Obama's travels could have been sparked by a rumor that was spread on YouTube by Reverend James Manning of the ATLAH church in Harlem. Manning alleged that Obama, while attending Columbia University (Class of 1983), was recruited by the Central Intelligence Agency to be the operative in an arms deal with the Taliban. Manning said that Obama was selected because he was fluent in Farsi and Middle Eastern customs. President only speaks English fluently, has never learned Farsi and the Taliban did not exist until 1989.





google is your friend.

[bessiedog]

Im pretty sure he consorted with Satan whilst noshing on babies.......


That ones true i tell ya!



East... you got more jiucethan me.... have at er!

[trophyboy]

Obama has been an absolute failure in all ways. He just doesn't have a clue......having eastcoast's support reiterates that completely!

[Big Daddy Badger]

Obama has been an absolute failure in all ways. He just doesn't have a clue......having eastcoast's support reiterates that completely!

Finally! An argument with some merit.

Only problem is...it's a one trick pony and I do believe that eastcoast may have (inexplicably) stumbled upon some hard facts.
I know...
It's hard to believe but every once in a while he gets one right.

Law of averages at play no doubt...:)

[rugatika]

Politifacts.com

Or instead of going to your groupthink sites... try googling

Raising of debt ceiling by president

Or increase os debt by president....

the stimulus stuff (the big stuff) was already started by gwb and bambam inherited a keynsian attempt to keep the system stable......he's sticking with it and well all be paying for it i figure.

I dont approve of it. But to hit obama with this is pretty weak sauce Rug.

Now parry my thrust w/out using smalldeadanimals or other predigested ready to serve righty tight tripe.....

Again..... obama is a huge dissappointment, but like i said before.... this is a systemic problem more than an idology thing. Im not really sold on keynsian stuff.

Btw.... did anyone check that youtube i posted? Its a nerdy gas!

Is Rolling Stone non-groupthink enough??? http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-great-american-bubble-machine-20100405

How about the Washington Examiner??? http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/beltway-confidential/2010/08/little-known-fact-obamas-failed-stimulus-program-cost-more

The Bush TARP program pretty much all paid back... http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/12/business/la-fi-tarp-repayment-20100612

Obama stimulus pkg...not so much... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123440436240475615.html

For and against TARP.... http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2011/05/24/the-case-for-and-against-tarp. You decide if it was worth it. I'm not a fan of bailouts in general, but for what TARP accomplished, it was pretty cheap.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/mar/8/obama-spending-hits-new-records/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/24/obama-shatters-spending-record-year-presidents/

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204479504576637513885592874.html

[eastcoast]

Finally! An argument with some merit.

Only problem is...it's a one trick pony and I do believe that eastcoast may have (inexplicably) stumbled upon some hard facts.
I know...
It's hard to believe but every once in a while he gets one right.

Law of averages at play no doubt...:)

really it took seconds to look it up on the internet machine.

[beansgunsghandi]

I'm not thrilled with Obama, but a thinking person has got to ask: What would have happened if McCain/Palin were elected? The mind truly boggles... McCain is senile, and Palin is stunningly clueless. (http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/topoftheticket/la-na-tt-game-change-20120311,0,5234811.story)

Typical right-wing BS to ignore the facts as usual; Eastcoast did a pretty good job of tearing the initial post's "facts" to pieces. But hey, the birthers still think Obama was born in Africa, and a big portion of the southern US thinks he's a muslim, except when his church leader is anti-america. Or something like that, actual facts are less fun than wild-ass speculation.

[eastcoast]

I'm not thrilled with Obama, but a thinking person has got to ask: What would have happened if McCain/Palin were elected? The mind truly boggles... McCain is senile, and Palin is stunningly clueless. (http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/topoftheticket/la-na-tt-game-change-20120311,0,5234811.story)

Typical right-wing BS to ignore the facts as usual; Eastcoast did a pretty good job of tearing the initial post's "facts" to pieces. But hey, the birthers still think Obama was born in Africa, and a big portion of the southern US thinks he's a muslim, except when his church leader is anti-america. Or something like that, actual facts are less fun than wild-ass speculation.

I actually don't mind mccain he's at least a fiscal conservative, bit of a war hawk but at least he walked the walk himself, but picking palin was a crazy mistake for numerous reasons.

[Big Daddy Badger]

really it took seconds to look it up on the internet machine.

Hey.
Don't be so modest.
How long does it take a guy to get it wrong?

Yup...seconds.

[midgetwaiter]

I will give Obama credit for pulling the trigger on OBL. But then, he undoes it all by immediately taking a victory lap and thereby rendering USELESS all the data on the hard drives captured by Seal Team 6. I conclude that he never really gave a rat's ***** about doing what was right or put his country ahead of his own personal fortunes; he rolled the dice in the hopes that he could improve his own personal fortunes and this is confirmed by his immediate disclosure of the operation before the military could use those hard drives to get further into Al Q and maybe pick off some more of the leadership before they knew that their organization was compromised.


How long do you think it would have remained a secret if Obama hadn't held that press conference? Think about it for a minute, really consider what happened and where it happened.

Here is the answer, it was done before Obama said anything. You can't crash and then blow up a secret helicopter in the middle of a city that's got almost million people in it without somebody noticing. One could expect to hear questions like "I wonder who owns that house with the flaming bits of secret helicopter all over it"? Or maybe "Did you see those guys that just left in the Chinook carrying a body bag and a bunch of computers?"

In fact if you look around there were reports of what was happening on Twitter AS IT HAPPENED and at least one US official that leaked the news before the press conference.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/02/us-binladen-twitter-idUSTRE7412MW20110502

[bessiedog]

Those links are better......

So................ if you read my prev posts accurately, your research pretty much proves what i said..... re read bud.

We both agree...keynsian approaches to this may not be the answer.... but the massive stim pkgs were initiated by Bush AND continued by Obama.... simple as that.

Nice spin attempt to pin this baby on bambam....... but they are pretty much both to blame.

You really gotta start trying out thepragmatic politic approach. If you take your jersey off for a bit..... youd see that both sides are to blame for the problem big time...... due to no one challnging the interest holds on the decision makers.......... your not giving the systemic problms their due.

Have a look at the history of us campaign finance reform....... I believe even Newt tried to addressthis once..... cant quite remember... too lazy to google.

We also need a little or lot more Hayek in our lives perhaps.

[TreeGuy]

We also need a little or lot more Hayek in our lives perhaps.

Agreed! :D



http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa50/joey_bighunk/salma_hayek.jpg

[dantonsen]

So every one whined about Bill Clinton when he was in Office.... The BUsh, and now OBama? They'll get another politician in office and gues what? I have a funny feeling people will whine about them too....hahahahaha


Obamas got the troops out of iraq, working on health care reform... The US employment data points are the lowest they have been since 2008 and the trend is gaining strength. Stock markets are back to pre-2008 levels. Manufacturing is actually posting job gains for the first time in over 25 years.

Any time Obama or anyone tries to do anything the republicans sabotage or gridlock it.... Look at the debt ceiling debate that lost the US the triple AAA rating, how many proposals did the democrats and the house make that the republicans rejected or refused to vote for?? The republicans played political chicken with the US's ability to pay creditors....The finincial fear invoked by republicans stupidity and stubborness and inability to work with other partys to hammer out an agreement in a time ly fashion cost institutions and citizens about 30 trillion dollars in investment losses last year.

One beef I have with obamas and the feds policy is the continued housing programs to try and lift the housing market or stabilize it... it'll takes years more to bottom if they keep trying to catch a falling knife

Look into what fedral reserves do and monetery policy and how it's changed over time... It's frickin' scarey, it's got nothing to do with who's in office... mind you poor managemnt like bush really didn't help


I've been doing some studying into US financial policy and history lately...The peeling back of regulations and controls over what institutions and what the f ederal reserve can do goes back past the sixtys... The most detrimental rollbacks started in the 90's, GW jr and the current people in control hammered in the final nails to the coffin. Do many people realize that there is a 360 trillion dollar CDS and derivative market that has been created since the 1990's? For every dollar of actual tangible real assets there are atleast 3-4 maybe more dollars of these grey area assets?

The home ownership thing was one of GW jr major pushes, he had a huge speech about every americans right to own a home.

Banks were packaging up mortgauge backed securitys and ratings agencys were paid by the same banks selling them were stam[ping the securities as AAA investment grade... Institutions were buying them without much research... Banks were selling CDS against the very securities they were selling... AIG was insuring these mortgauges and securities without due diligence. Companys who purchased these assets were bundling them up into high interest funds, using them as collateral to borrow and purchase other things.

Everyone was greedy, home owners in a craze to get homes, bankers selling loans, it went right from top to bottom... Then once the high price of oil and inflation dragged the economy down and it was crunch time everyone who over extended themselves with debt and obligations it blew up in their faces

[rugatika]

I really don't think you can compare Bush's spending with Obama's. The numbers are orders of magnitude greater. I think the numbers I saw was Obama had spent in 3 years what Bush had in 8. And much of Bush's spending was under an expanding economy, after a major terrorist attack, rather than a retracting one.

And yes...Hayek, Friedman, etc, should all be mandatory reading before stepping into the voting booth. Unless of course you were referring to Tree's Hayek...then reading is optional.

My main point being, that Bush was a long way from my idea of an ideal fiscal conservative, but I just don't think he deserves the blame that gets heaped on him.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Anyone else notice that the OP is conspicuously absent from the conversation now?

Must have lost interest once everyone started to confuse the issue with facts and such....lol

[762Russian]

I really don't think you can compare Bush's spending with Obama's. The numbers are orders of magnitude greater. I think the numbers I saw was Obama had spent in 3 years what Bush had in 8. And much of Bush's spending was under an expanding economy, after a major terrorist attack, rather than a retracting one.

And yes...Hayek, Friedman, etc, should all be mandatory reading before stepping into the voting booth. Unless of course you were referring to Tree's Hayek...then reading is optional.

My main point being, that Bush was a long way from my idea of an ideal fiscal conservative, but I just don't think he deserves the blame that gets heaped on him.
When you were a kid, ever get someone to run up the merry-go-round real quick? Then try to slow it down and stop it? Far easier to keep running it up faster and faster to let the next oik take a hand at it.

Bush started the Iraq mess, Obama's incompetence is just making it marginally worse from the momentum it has gained.

Also; Bush started a war with Iraq on 'facts' that were a complete fabrication. The a-hole deserves a war crimes trial, not merely blame.

[Rocky7]

.. I do get sucked in when I see idiotic statements in a non-outdoor thread.

I know exactly what you mean; especially when it's the same idiotic statements I heard 50x before on the Let's-Think-Alike News.

[Rocky7]

I think the numbers I saw was Obama had spent in 3 years what Bush had in 8.

That was before he hit his stride.

He has now run up more debt that every U.S. President before him, going right back to George Washington, COMBINED.

[Arachnodisiac]

Really?
http://www.skymachines.com/US-National-Debt-Per-Capita-Percent-of-GDP-and-by-Presidental-Term.htm

[Sundancefisher]

just skimming through a few and they are false, donèt believe everything you read on the internets.

First President to Violate the War Powers Act-lincoln suspended habeus corpus in the civil war.

First President to Defy a Federal Judge’s Court Order to Cease Implementing the ‘Health Care Reform’ Law-false it hasn't gone to court yet.


First President to halt deportations of illegal aliens and grant them work permits, a form of stealth amnesty roughly equivalent to “The DREAM Act”, which could not pass Congress-false obama has deported more illigals than any president.

First President to Require All Americans to Purchase a Product From a Third Party- I guess this is talking about healthcare which hasn't taken effet yet so another false.

First President to sign into law a bill that permits the government to “hold anyone suspected of being associated with terrorism indefinitely, without any form of due process. No indictment. No judge or jury. No evidence. No trial. Just an indefinite jail sentence.”- another absolute false, fdr has concentration camps for japanese americans, and bush jr had gitmo.


those are just the one's I know off hand, like I said don't believe chain e mails, and don't waste rational people's times by posting them here.

"Obama’s Firsts:

• First President to Preside Over a Cut to the Credit Rating of the United States Government"

Certainly you could of slammed this one as well.

My understanding is that the economy crashed before Obama came into power. Also the cut to the credit rating was precipitated by the infighting in congress...not Obama.

I agree...that list was more humorous than true in many respects. Great Republican drama...

JimPS...just wondering. You post this so clearly you are Republican. So in Canada do you feel our universal health care should be abolished in favor of the US style health care insurance? That is the biggest election issue. Are you for or against Canada's public health care system?

[Rocky7]

To be honest... watching that election campaign and now the recent Republican primaries... a couple thoughts have crossed my mind.

First...it seemed as though McCain almost bailed during that campaign.
He and Palin just seemed to run out of steam at the last minute and it was almost as though they came to the realization that being elected at this time would not serve the parties long term interest... or their own.

That's not what I saw.

I saw the large media outlets all line up to cheer for Obama by peddling propaganda as "news" or "journalism". It's impossible to withstand national media who are determined to elect someone else and are determined to magnify all of one side's faults while ignoring the other. McCain/Palin were never able to overcome that so in that sense maybe they seemed to run out of steam. It seemed like McCain's handlers tried to coast the campaign at the end, maybe, when their numbers sagged...yeah, that might have played into it, too.

I saw Obama mention the "51 States" and everyone pretended they didn't hear it.

I saw Hillary Clinton talk about landing in Bosnia and have to run from a "hail of bullets" and then video show her actual landing where she stepped onto the ground and did a walk-about with a group of schoolchildren. And everyone pretended she didn't say it.

But when Sara Palin mentions that you can see Russia from Alaska - which you can - the same propaganda machine launches into a week of deep analysis of the difference between U.S. Armed Forces and the National Guard and concludes that she doesn't seem to understand that and is therefore not fit to run the country.

I saw the same MSM send a horde of investigators to Alaska to look for dirt but nobody went to talk to Reverend Wright, his neighbours and other members of his congregation. That was not seen as overt evidence of bias, it is generally accepted by the MSM as a necessary Holy Crusade.

I noticed the acclaimed "foreign policy expert", Joe Biden, flub the facts when he got mixed up on Hezbollah and, again, the MSM pretends they didn't hear it.

Etc, etc. etc.

Obama was a better speaker, for sure, but it helped him a lot to be helped by the MSM think-alikes. There are still voters who think the MSM is Walter Cronkite, not Tokoyo Rose. Just like here.

Palin was a game-changer when the U.S. needed a game-changer. Whether or not she dangled a participle now and again was quite irrelevant to me. She had a grasp of the fundamentals and she has the courage to follow them despite a stiff headwind of criticism from the Eloi. That would have been enough for me. More than enough.

[bessiedog]

Thanks spidey...... kindof what i was talking about a ways back.....

You'd think them big elephant ears would listen to me...... dang repubs...

tree......... the other hayak should be mandatory viewing/reading as well.......

Itd keep the boys awake


Im pretty done here.

Rocky et al...... same thing about media if you tune to sun tv or fox.

Have you ever heard of noam chomsky..........
Maybe marshal macluhan (spelled wrong)


Give em a read

[Arachnodisiac]

Have you ever heard of noam chomsky..........
Give em a read

I can't imagine that Uncle Noam would be well-received around these parts. :)

[Rocky7]

Rocky et al...... same thing about media if you tune to sun tv or fox.

I disagree. Not even close.

Have you got examples of that or are we just hearing the moral equivalence reflex that has become fashionable?

[rugatika]

I can't imagine that Uncle Noam would be well-received around these parts. :)

Why not? Most conservatives are willing to listen or give the opportunity at the very least for everyone to have their say. Conservatives I would say are generally more open minded to letting everyone have their say than the left.

[Arachnodisiac]

Why not? Most conservatives are willing to listen or give the opportunity at the very least for everyone to have their say. Conservatives I would say are generally more open minded to letting everyone have their say than the left.

You know, it would be pretty neat to start a book exchange challenge, where if you sign up, you agree to read one book a month that someone in the group suggests and vice-versa.

(And I wouldn't actually suggest Chomsky - he's a very dry read.)

[Rocky7]

You post this so clearly you are Republican. So in Canada do you feel our universal health care should be abolished in favor of the US style health care insurance? That is the biggest election issue. Are you for or against Canada's public health care system?

Before you get too far down the track on your Ideology Horse, are you aware that the Supreme Court of Canada has found our public health care system is an unacceptable restriction on that most basic human right - the right to live?

[rugatika]

You know, it would be pretty neat to start a book exchange challenge, where if you sign up, you agree to read one book a month that someone in the group suggests and vice-versa.

(And I wouldn't actually suggest Chomsky - he's a very dry read.)

I tried reading Chomsky once...and yes...makes for a slow slog, especially if you don't agree with a lot of what he's saying. He's a smart guy, with some interesting ideas, but I just don't agree with them.

[bessiedog]

Rock.. you don't even read my posts and decide to check the research out... let alone reflect on what i wrote. I dont expect you to drop the bias. But I DO bet you have more than enough smarts to chew on chomsky and hayak (taking Trees post into cosideration.... hmmmmm.. interesting..)

Stuff will rock you man. Is the foundation of critical thinking.
Check your own underwear b4 you start bkaming someone else for the stink man.

Rug... long time ago i suggested you read Smith's theory of moral sentiment.... you googled it... not the same man, not nearly. should be required reading for all investors or Goldman Sachs execs.

Being a google scholar is good to a point, but your missing some stuff big time cause some meaty ideas take so e serious chewing ( hey... i do a tonne of google schooli g as well so im not slagging ya... just go a bit further)

Chomsky is freaking dry. ..... Use scotch, or my preferrence... rye.

Now im really done.

[rugatika]

When you were a kid, ever get someone to run up the merry-go-round real quick? Then try to slow it down and stop it? Far easier to keep running it up faster and faster to let the next oik take a hand at it.

Bush started the Iraq mess, Obama's incompetence is just making it marginally worse from the momentum it has gained.

Also; Bush started a war with Iraq on 'facts' that were a complete fabrication. The a-hole deserves a war crimes trial, not merely blame.

Eventually it got going so fast that it couldn't possibly go any faster, and you had no choice but to step back and let it wind down. But then, I really don't see the comparison of a merry go round to the us economy.

So, does the US congress that voted to go to war in Iraq also get war crimes trials?? Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, etc etc?? Which facts were complete fabrication?

The resolution cited many factors to justify the use of military force against Iraq:[2][3]

Iraq's noncompliance with the conditions of the 1991 ceasefire agreement, including interference with U.N. weapons inspectors.
Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction, and programs to develop such weapons, posed a "threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region."
Iraq's "brutal repression of its civilian population."
Iraq's "capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people".
Iraq's hostility towards the United States as demonstrated by the 1993 assassination attempt on former President George H. W. Bush and firing on coalition aircraft enforcing the no-fly zones following the 1991 Gulf War.
Members of al-Qaeda, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq.
Iraq's "continu[ing] to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations," including anti-United States terrorist organizations.
Iraq paid bounty to families of suicide bombers.
The efforts by the Congress and the President to fight terrorists, and those who aided or harbored them.
The authorization by the Constitution and the Congress for the President to fight anti-United States terrorism.
The governments in Turkey, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia feared Saddam and wanted him removed from power.
Citing the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, the resolution reiterated that it should be the policy of the United States to remove the Saddam Hussein regime and promote a democratic replacement.
fr http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution

[Rocky7]

Rock.. you don't even read my posts and decide to check the research out... let alone reflect on what i wrote. I dont expect you to drop the bias. But I DO bet you have more than enough smarts to chew on chomsky and hayak (taking Trees post into cosideration.... hmmmmm.. interesting..)

Stuff will rock you man. Is the foundation of critical thinking.

I read your posts, alright. I confess I have a hard time with the gibberish parts, but I do the best I can.

Chomsky is not the foundation of critical thinking. Neither is Saul Alinsky.

The foundation of critical thinking is an open mind, not Statist sermons...man.

[Sundancefisher]

Before you get too far down the track on your Ideology Horse, are you aware that the Supreme Court of Canada has found our public health care system is an unacceptable restriction on that most basic human right - the right to live?

I asked a simple question...do you believe in our universal health care system or not. You can answer also if you like.

As for your statement. Please provide the Court ruling in which this is stated. I would like to see the context.

[Sundancefisher]

I saw the large media outlets all line up to cheer for Obama by peddling propaganda as "news" or "journalism". It's impossible to withstand national media who are determined to elect someone else and are determined to magnify all of one side's faults while ignoring the other.

I agree...watching FOX News is great comedy. It is amazing how much they miss completely when it comes to understanding Canada.

[Rocky7]

Please provide the Court ruling in which this is stated. I would like to see the context.

Sorry, I don't do spoon feeding. And you, apparently, don't follow the news. Does that concern you, at all?

[eastcoast]

I read your posts, alright. I confess I have a hard time with the gibberish parts, but I do the best I can.

Chomsky is not the foundation of critical thinking. Neither is .

The foundation of critical thinking is an open mind, not Statist sermons...man.

someone has been watching too much fox news, what do you know about Saul Alinsky?

[eastcoast]

Sorry, I don't do spoon feeding. And you, apparently, don't follow the news. Does that concern you, at all?

nice deflection.

[Sundancefisher]

nice deflection.

I thought so. And actually I was hoping he would actually prove his point clearly.

I don't mind learning something new...however to insinuate that the Supreme Court of Canada finds our health care system in Canada to be a disadvantage for Canadians in any way...I find...curiously odd.

Still I would like Rocky7 to answer a simple question. Is he for or against Universal Health Care in Canada?

[bessiedog]

Looks like your dogma won't hunt bud.


Too bad. I might have given you too much credit.

Good sparring wth ya rug. :)

[Big Daddy Badger]

Why not? Most conservatives are willing to listen or give the opportunity at the very least for everyone to have their say. Conservatives I would say are generally more open minded to letting everyone have their say than the left.

Oh yeah...there are countless examples of that in these forums alone.:scared0018:
I will admit though... this particular post has been the most amicable so far and the mud slinging seems to be under control..... for a change.

[bradleyk]

I thought so. And actually I was hoping he would actually prove his point clearly.

I don't mind learning something new...however to insinuate that the Supreme Court of Canada finds our health care system in Canada to be a disadvantage for Canadians in any way...I find...curiously odd.

Still I would like Rocky7 to answer a simple question. Is he for or against Universal Health Care in Canada?

I'll spoon feed :D I'm not sure exactly which ruling Rocky is referring to, but one of the early ones was Quebec based but went to the Supreme Court. Essentially they ruled for the patient that the health care system and the Quebec health laws were in violation of...oh never mind...you can read it yourself Supreme Court ruling (http://www.mapleleafweb.com/features/charter-health-care-canada)

[Rocky7]

I'll spoon feed :D I'm not sure exactly which ruling Rocky is referring to, but one of the early ones was Quebec based but went to the Supreme Court. Essentially they ruled for the patient that the health care system and the Quebec health laws were in violation of...oh never mind...you can read it yourself Supreme Court ruling (http://www.mapleleafweb.com/features/charter-health-care-canada)

Cheater.:)

I'd make them either look for them (not hard to find) or admit they are poorly informed....which was kinda what happened when you disregard the usual lefty loudness.

Anyway, you have a kinder heart for the loud than I.:happy0180: