Did I hear this right?

[Don Andersen]

If the Enbridge pipeline goes through, crude from Alberta will get more money. If you can believe that gasoline prices are set by crude prices, Enbridge will drive up gasoline cost.

Gotta love the logic. Go pipeline Go. Hell this beats all hollow CO2/energy/gasoline tax for stupid. We'll drive less then - you bet cha'



Don

[CanuckShooter]

Another good reason to never allow it to happen. :test:

[Okotokian]

Right now Alberta crude is relatively locked in to the US midwest and hence somewhat undervalued. Higher prices will help many of our employers plus provincial government coffers.

By the logic voiced here I guess we should only allow Canadian wheat to be sold in Canada. It would keep our bread prices down. Who cares what it would do to the producers and others working in agriculture? ;)

[CanuckShooter]

Just wait until they get that liquified natural gas going out of Kitimat....it will drive the natural gas prices here through the roof!! No more excess supply keeping the prices low, we will be on the world market prices for nat gas to heat our homes. You just would not believe the price difference between here and asia for natural gas.

These rapid price rises will drive inflation and interest rates to rise...so long as it's good for employers it's OK.

[Okotokian]

Just wait until they get that liquified natural gas going out of Kitimat....it will drive the natural gas prices here through the roof!!.

Through the roof? How low is your figurative roof CS? Natural gas prices haven't been lower in a decade. Nearly giving the stuff away. Given the supply glut and the shale coming on stream almost daily, it's going to take an armada of tankers to get the prices to rise much.

You sound like an Ontario Premier. Only their industries should be able to reap world prices, everyone else should keep their prices nice and low for their fellow Canadians. ;) LOL

[CanuckShooter]

My roof gets lower every day...we have an HST here and a Carbon Tax...and gasoline and diesel are pretty pricey, and hydro is going up 10% year for the next three years, and property taxes are going up some more.....and food costs are rising with the increased costs of transportation, and vehicle insurance is rising.....

I don't need anymore roof lowering thank you, leave the stuff in the ground and buy it from Saudi Arabia it's cheaper. ;-)

[Okotokian]

My roof gets lower every day...we have an HST here and a Carbon Tax...and gasoline and diesel are pretty pricey, and hydro is going up 10% year for the next three years, and property taxes are going up some more.....and food costs are rising with the increased costs of transportation, and vehicle insurance is rising.....


HST, "carbon tax", hydropower costs of your provincially owned utility, insurance increases from your provincially owned insurance plan.... I'd say your ire is misdirected. Don't blame Alberta for those things... look east... to Victoria ;)

[Don Andersen]

Right now Alberta crude is relatively locked in to the US midwest and hence somewhat undervalued. Higher prices will help many of our employers plus provincial government coffers.

By the logic voiced here I guess we should only allow Canadian wheat to be sold in Canada. It would keep our bread prices down. Who cares what it would do to the producers and others working in agriculture? ;)

Gee,

Funny but I really don't have a lot of sympathy of your employer. What I have is sympathy for us that get to pay $1.20/l + @ the pumps and going up.

Apparently the rise in crude price from $105 to $ 130 shouldn't be a concern?

Don

[braggadoe]

The price at the pump in china is 40-50% less than we pay here. Does it make sense to drive our price at the pump up even more, to supply them with oil??

[fordtruckin]

The price at the pump in china is 40-50% less than we pay here. Does it make sense to drive our price at the pump up even more, to supply them with oil??

and if its refined there I'm sure they have the same Environmental codes in China that they do in NA. Oh and I'm sure they pay their employees the same as in NA.

[BlackHeart]

My roof gets lower every day...we have an HST here and a Carbon Tax...and gasoline and diesel are pretty pricey, and hydro is going up 10% year for the next three years, and property taxes are going up some more.....and food costs are rising with the increased costs of transportation, and vehicle insurance is rising.....

I don't need anymore roof lowering thank you, leave the stuff in the ground and buy it from Saudi Arabia it's cheaper. ;-)

Your logic is the basis of the problem.
First get your head out of your BC mentality.
Great send money outside of our country to some foreign antagonistic regime.
Third if you had not voted for successive socialistic governments and their idiotic policies, your taxes would not be where they are....blame yourself for being stupid and greedy without wanting to work hard for your living.

[winged1]

I agree with Danielle, if we can't get it to the west coast, then pipe it to our eastern refiners who can process it and sell it into the US Northeast.

[CanuckShooter]

HST, "carbon tax", hydropower costs of your provincially owned utility, insurance increases from your provincially owned insurance plan.... I'd say your ire is misdirected. Don't blame Alberta for those things... look east... to Victoria ;)


WEST, west to Victoria old boy!!! :love0025:

[CanuckShooter]

Your logic is the basis of the problem.
First get your head out of your BC mentality.
Great send money outside of our country to some foreign antagonistic regime.
Third if you had not voted for successive socialistic governments and their idiotic policies, your taxes would not be where they are....blame yourself for being stupid and greedy without wanting to work hard for your living.

Your soapbox is slippery, and your prose doesn't make any sense. :snapoutofit:

[Okotokian]

The price at the pump in china is 40-50% less than we pay here. Does it make sense to drive our price at the pump up even more, to supply them with oil??

If the Chinese pay 40-50% LESS at the pump than us? That sort of shoots the whole argument down about chinese competition RAISING the prices of our gas, doesn't it. ;)

[Okotokian]

WEST, west to Victoria old boy!!! :love0025:

Maybe he lives in Tofino ;)

Yeah, I was asleep on that one LOL

[Okotokian]

I agree with Danielle, if we can't get it to the west coast, then pipe it to our eastern refiners who can process it and sell it into the US Northeast.

I'm all for that. The Feds going to come up with a construction subsidy to build the longer, costlier pipelineline east for no increase in revenue?

[Leeper]

If the Chinese pay 40-50% LESS at the pump than us? That sort of shoots the whole argument down about chinese competition RAISING the prices of our gas, doesn't it. ;)

How do you figure? If energy is sold to China at lower prices, the law of supply and demand will drive prices up here. In fact, prices here will simply be set higher to make up for any shortfall created by lower prices in China. In addition, I think we can be fairly certain that, at some level, the Canadian taxpayer will help to pay for the pipeline and related infrastructure. This to help out the oil and gas companies who have been so hard done by over the years.
As consumers, we are not obligated to ensure that North American energy companies can maximize their profits. We are obligated to try and keep prices as low as possible. That's business. Additional B.C. taxes do impact the price at the pump but that really has no place in the discussion. The oil and gas industry likes to champion itself as the hero of the habitat, providing employment for all to the detriment of no one but really, they just want the money.
By the way, the election of so-called "socialist governments" in BC is another misconception. While it is true that BC has, on occasion, elected an NDP government, the government of recent years is considered to be one of fiscal conservatism. The difference to the taxpayer is little. A liberal (socialist) government taxes the hell out of the population and gives the money to the unions. The conservative government taxes the hell out of the population and gives the money to management (often related to government members.). In the end, the money is taken out of our pockets and put into someone else's and we get little in return; just like everywhere else! Leeper

[Okotokian]

In fact, prices here will simply be set higher to make up for any shortfall created by lower prices in China.

LOL Does anyone else here actually understand how the industry and market really work? :1041: I'm getting tired of the guys from BC trying to explain their conception of it. From a BC perspective, some single authority always "sets the price", right?

[CanuckShooter]

I'm all for that. The Feds going to come up with a construction subsidy to build the longer, costlier pipelineline east for no increase in revenue?

Read this and exchange fence with pipeline....someway, somehow we must fund our election campaigns....;-)




Three contractors are bidding to fix a broken fence at an Ottawa house: One is from Vancouver, another is from Toronto and the third is from NFLD. All three go with a Government official to examine the fence.

The Vancouver contractor takes out a tape measure and does some measuring, then works some figures with a pencil. "Well," he says, "I figure the job will run about $900: $400 for materials, $400 for my crew and $100 profit for me."

The Toronto contractor also does some measuring and figuring, then says, "I can do this job for $700: $300 for materials, $300 for my crew and $100 profit for me."

The NFLD contractor doesn't measure or figure, but leans over to the government official and whispers, "$2,700." The official, incredulous, says, "You didn't even measure like the other guys! How did you come up with such a high figure?"

The NFLD contractor whispers back, "$1,000 for me, $1,000 for you, and we hire the guy from Toronto to fix the fence." "Done!" replies the government official. And that, my friends, is how government contracting works everywhere.

[CanuckShooter]

LOL Does anyone else here actually understand how the industry and market really work? :1041: I'm getting tired of the guys from BC trying to explain their conception of it. From a BC perspective, some single authority always "sets the price", right?

It works differently depending upon where you live...here the oil companies set the street price on a whim, they can raise them if a rabbit lays an egg anywhere near the Gulf or Saudi Arabia....it has absolutely little bearing upon the spot price of oil on the commodities market or the street price anywhere else in the world....:bad_boys_20:

[Ianhntr]

I would have expected at least one comment about the cost to the environment from a group of hunters and fishermen!! That was what shut the projects down the last time this was brought up.

But then I understand that we now have a very progressive government who can rearrange the CEAA requirements. Have we honestly come to the point where there is no concern over what the cost will be to our heritage!

I hope this is kept in a history book somewhere for someone to look at in 25 years.

[Okotokian]

Have we honestly come to the point where there is no concern over what the cost will be to our heritage!

I hope this is kept in a history book somewhere for someone to look at in 25 years.

Yes, I have to admit we are entering uncharted territory and have no idea how the pipeline will impact "our heritage". If we only had some pipelines already built in Canada we would have some experience.. but alas, we have none.

[boonerkiller]

It works differently depending upon where you live...here the oil companies set the street price on a whim, they can raise them if a rabbit lays an egg anywhere near the Gulf or Saudi Arabia....it has absolutely little bearing upon the spot price of oil on the commodities market or the street price anywhere else in the world....:bad_boys_20:


The OIL companies have absolutely no say in what the price of commodities is...Commodity traders do. The only way big bad OIL companies can sway the price is to stop drilling for new product and supply will over time come down. However if they were to stop drilling cold turkey share holders would be ****ed as the companies value now declines with cash in the bank and no new reserves are added.

Seems some here aren't all that well versed in how the world spins.

[dantonsen]

I forget the exact names but this is a general idea of prices and locations

Oil

BRENT crude 126$barrel- is the price you pay for oil that comes from anywhere in the world besides north america... places like eastern Canada and the northeastern USA pay these prices as they import oil from persia, africa etc.... Thats why gas is soo high out east

west texas intermediate 106$ barrel- priced by supply contracts out of the cushing oklahoma hub which is kinda loaded with oil.

Light sweet nymex 107? or so a barrel-not entirely sure but it's mid/mid eastern USA

Western canadian select- is what western canada gets for light oil... I think it's 100$ or less a barrel...

heavy oil- I have no idea what the name is but it's usually worth about 10%-25% less than WTI or Canadien select. I think it's around 75$ maybe 80$


Natural gas.... Yes we have a 10 year low in natural gas prices in NORTH AMERICA ONLY, they are as follows

Aeco- is the price western canada gets for natural gas it's about 1.68$unti last time I checked

Nymex- the price for the eastern producers- 2.30$unit

NOW JUMP THE SEA TO ASIA

it's about 12-14$unit for natural gas.......7-9$ in the middle east.....and avout 7ish$ unit in europe

Our natural gas prices would rise 400-800% if companys could market to asia

Oil- we get oil that is discounted up to 40% VS BRENT prices in western canada and the USA. If companys could market to asia the price paid by refineries here would go up... Why sell a barrel of oil to Parkland fuel for 100$ when you could put it in enbridges pipeline and get 126$?

here's another one to mull over... to support the export terminal for lng canada will need 21 trillion cubic feet of natural gas over the project life.... we will still have to meet our NAFTA obligations on gas exports to the USA and feed the natural gas needed for tarsands expansion to fill that oil pipeline which is about double what canada consumes to heat our country during the winter.

Canada has about 31 trillion cubic feet of natural gas, 21 for the terminal, probably a tonne for the USA (3trillion a year), tarsands.... then Canadian heating?

[braggadoe]

Post #250 on the ngpl thread, explains it pretty well.

Difficult read, but worth it.

FYI the CEO of enbridge quit/retired last week. if this pipeline where approved today, it would be tied up in court battles with the first nation's for the next 10-20 years. if it where ever approved, enbridge would have to hire "blackwater" to provide security for the construction crews. Some people are pretty protective/****ed off of what the federal gov pushes through their back yard.

it needs to be refined here in north america. Canada or Usa.

[CanuckShooter]

The OIL companies have absolutely no say in what the price of commodities is...Commodity traders do. The only way big bad OIL companies can sway the price is to stop drilling for new product and supply will over time come down. However if they were to stop drilling cold turkey share holders would be ****ed as the companies value now declines with cash in the bank and no new reserves are added.

Seems some here aren't all that well versed in how the world spins.

And oil companies don't hedge? :sHa_sarcasticlol: