Gun owners decry 'monstrous' changes to ammunition rules

[OneShotJohn]

I hope this wasn't posted already. I was also hoping the date was April 1...

http://www.canada.com/news/owners+decry+monstrous+changes+ammunition+rules/6405308/story.html

OTTAWA — Hunters and shooters are up in arms about the federal government's proposed new explosives regulations, which they say will interfere with everything from big-game hunting and ammunition storage, to re-enacting historic battles.

The changes require — for the first time in Canada — gun owners to lock away all ammunition. At present, guns must be locked, but not ammunition. The proposed rules will require all gun owners to install a locking box or safe in their homes.

Toronto lawyer Ed Burlew, one of Canada's leading experts in firearms law, described the proposed regulatory changes as "monstrous." He said police already routinely charge lawful firearms owners with unsafe storage — a criminal charge — and that with the changes, more otherwise lawful citizens will be criminalized.

"It is not unintended consequences," Burlew said. "This is a move to increase the ability of police to prosecute firearms owners for regulatory infractions."

The draft regulations, made public recently, are currently in a 75-day review period. The public has been invited to tell Natural Resources Canada if they have concerns — before the end of June — and the final regulations will come into force in the late summer or early fall.

At that point, Natural Resources official Jean-Luc Arpin said, there will be a six-month "grace period" to give affected groups time to adapt.

The explosive regulations have been rewritten because the previous laws, passed in 1920, have become outdated, the draft regulations say.

Tony Bernardo, head of the Canadian Sports Shooting Association, says the draft regulations are often "oxymoronic," especially when it comes to rules around storing ammunition.

The proposed rules would require all ammo to be stored "in a manner that protects them from theft."

But what, exactly, will satisfy the new "theft-proof" requirement remains unclear.

"Making it theft proof involves putting it at the bottom of a 300-foot mine shaft guarded by grizzly bears and tigers," Bernardo said. "Is that theft proof? You could probably still get that, too, if you're really determined."

Most people will be tempted to lock ammunition away in gun safes, he said, but this can become very dangerous in the event of a fire.

"You're going to put propellant powder — Class B explosives — into a steel container?" Bernardo said. "They call that a bomb and it's dangerous as hell."

Bernardo said Natural Resources officials told him gun owners should construct wooden boxes with brass fixtures for ammunition. These materials don't create sparks, he said, but don't provide much security, either.

But Arpin said the safe storage requirements will not be as complicated as Bernardo suspects. He said any locking container — even those which can be easily removed from a house — likely will satisfy the incoming safe storage requirements.

The proposed regulations also seriously restrict the use of big-game rifles, since the regulations define "small-arms ammunition" as bullets no larger than .50 calibre. But in Canada, calibres larger than .50 — such as the .577 Snider and the .505 Gibbs rounds — are frequently used to hunt bears and other large or dangerous game.

Since these large bullets are not defined as small-arms ammunition in the proposed regulations, Arpin said, they will fall into a more general category of blasting explosives. As a result, shooters who use large calibres will have to acquire explosives licences — such as those needed for dynamite — to continue hunting with large-bore rifles.

The definition of small-arms ammunition could be changed before the final regulations come into force, if the public takes issue.

"We will consider a slight amendment to the definition based on suggestions received," Arpin said.

Owners of antique firearms — such as those who re-enact historic battles — also will see their hobby hobbled by the proposed rules. Antique, muzzleloading black powder guns are considered "non-firearms" under Canada's firearms classification system, meaning their owners are exempt from the onerous registration and licensing requirements to which users of more modern guns must adhere.

But under the proposed regulations, owners of such guns would be unable to legally purchase black powder unless they have a firearms licence.

"Antiques don't need a license, and that's why people enjoy it," said Burlew. "When these regulations come into effect, they won't be able to buy gun powder to shoot their antiques unless they get a (Possession and Acquisition Licence)."

Arpin said firearms groups, including the National Firearms Association and various hunting and fishing groups, were consulted before the draft regulations were written.

jdavis@postmedia.com

Twitter.com/JeffDavisOttawa
© Copyright (c) Postmedia News

[zero]

down with LGR and up with Ammo storage registry.

[crawfy]

Gee let me think it's already locked up inside my home and now they want it locked up inside another locked box.

[rugatika]

WHAT IN THE HECK ARE THEY DOING NOW!! I AM POD!

Mods...this should be up in the general section as well.

Talk about a freaking knife in the back. Guess I'll be on the horn tomorrow to my MP. If this goes through, it'll be time to fire up the reform party. I'm getting might sick of this BS!!

Is there some rational explanation for this?? Is this a late april fools joke or something??

[walking buffalo]

This is a link to the proposed changes. Get a bottle, it will take a while to get through all of it.

Vol. 146, No. 11 — March 17, 2012
Explosives Regulations, 2012
Statutory authority Explosives Act
Sponsoring department Department of Natural Resources

REGULATORY IMPACT ANALYSIS STATEMENT

http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2012/2012-03-17/html/reg1-eng.html



Interesting note. From the article. Arpin said firearms groups, including the National Firearms Association and various hunting and fishing groups, were consulted before the draft regulations were written.



From the Official Government notice release on March 17, 2012. To what extent was the NRA and hunting groups consulted? The release says groups WILL be consulted, not that they HAVE been consulted.

Consultation
This modernization proposal was initiated in the 1990s and was developed with consultations with key partners and stakeholders. Given the long-term nature of this project, stakeholders are thoroughly aware of the proposed changes and they have been consulted on numerous occasions. Stakeholders support the proposed changes as they will modernize the explosives regulations, make compliance easier, and implement modern industrial practices into regulations. Other stakeholder groups will be consulted on specific sections of the revised Explosives Regulations. For example, the Canadian Fertilizer Institute was briefed on changes to the Restricted Components Regulations.

Ongoing informal discussions are held with the heads of the four major stakeholder organizations:

•Canadian Explosives Industry Association (CEAEC)
•Petroleum Services Association of Canada (PSAC)
•Canadian Pyrotechnic Council (CPC)
•Canadian Association of Geophysical Contractors (CAGC)



Contact
Dr. Christopher Watson
Director and Chief Inspector of Explosives
Explosives Safety and Security Branch
Department of National Resources
1431 Merivale Road
Ottawa, Ontario
K1A 0G1
Telephone: 613-948-5170
Fax: 613-948-5195
Email: Christopher.Watson@NRCan.gc.ca

[Dr. Phil A]

A gun is nothing more than a crowbar with out ammo or a bolt.

Ammo without a gun is pretty much useless.

The social engineering that goes on by lifer bureaucrats is unreal. You would think that the Harper government would know that their politics are different from the support staff they inherited. Should they not be more vigilant, reading everything and questioning everything proposed by the staff?

There is a hidden agenda but it is not Harper's.

[densa44]

There still are way too many civil servants. This is worse than the LGR at least for me.

[JimPS]

A gun is nothing more than a crowbar with out ammo or a bolt.

Ammo without a gun is pretty much useless.

The social engineering that goes on by lifer bureaucrats is unreal. You would think that the Harper government would know that their politics are different from the support staff they inherited. Should they not be more vigilant, reading everything and questioning everything proposed by the staff?

There is a hidden agenda but it is not Harper's.

The orders come from the minister - the PM is ultimately responsible for the orders.
I believe our governments are terrified of an armed populace.
The minister is ultimately responsible for the decision of his bureaucrats.
Gun control has not/will not work to disarm the citizenry.
Guns are useless without ammo.
The "hidden agenda" may very well be to limit or severely restrict the purchase, possession and storage of ammo.

Jim

[32-40win]

May as well put the same post on two threads I guess;

this is the NFA's news on it;

http://www.nfa.ca/news/explosives-regulations-2012-r%C3%A8glement-de-2012-sur-les-explosifs-0

And this is a note from NRCAN that appears to be after the Mar 17 gazette release; FAQ's on section 14;

http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/minerals-metals/explosives/4422#p14

[Lefty-Canuck]

Is this a "fail safe" "trigger" Bill?

In case the Gun Registry hit the Senate, this would be enacted to further mess with the gun owning populace??

I don't was to mention the word "conspir...."

BUT!!!

LC

[kaleh01]

I am getting these documents printed today and will be sitting down with a cigar, a glass of port and highlighter to go through these in the next few days. Our government always finds new ways to make life for a firearms user more difficult!

On another note, I found out yesterday that Wholesale sports in calgary at least is trying to enforce a policy of keeping a record of powder purchases..... I told them to stuff it, I'll go buy elsewhere. Maybe right, maybe wrong, but IMO it's not required, at least yet. :angry3:

Everybody needs to get involved with this and email their concerns in before Mid May, which is 75 days from release of the document by my count. I will be happy to post my notes after a complete review, but these will be my interpretations only. You all need to make up your own minds.

[Jamie Black R/T]

i just unleashed an email tsunami of displeasure on my MP....will stop in after work with a hard copy as well.

Put some pressure on your MP's people....they work for YOU....not the other way around.

[kaleh01]

Also, for those of you on Canadian GunNutz, there is over 50 pages of posts already on this topic in one thread. It's under discussions and alerts, as said before, grab a comfy chair and prepare for a long read. And when your done reading, make sure you let your MP and the below contact especially know your displeasure!

Dr. Christopher Watson
Director and Chief Inspector of Explosives
Explosives Safety and Security Branch
Department of National Resources
1431 Merivale Road
Ottawa, Ontario
K1A 0G1
Telephone: 613-948-5170
Fax: 613-948-5195
Email: Christopher.Watson@NRCan.gc.ca

[kaleh01]

i just unleashed an email tsunami of displeasure on my MP Put some pressure on your MP's people....they work for YOU....not the other way around.

LMAO, well said

[insurgus]

Cut from CGN.



April 4, 2012
Dr. Christopher Watson
Director and Chief Inspector of Explosives
Explosives Safety and Security Branch
Department of National Resources
1431 Merivale Road
Ottawa, Ontario
K1A 0G1
Dear Dr. Watson,

I have read with great concern in the media and the Gazette about the proposed changes to explosives regulations by Natural Resources Canada. As a sport shooter and hunter, I believe the ministry as overlooked the vast, complicated impact to the many Canadians who purchase commercially manufactured ammunition or buy the components for reloading their own cartridges.

I understand the need to improve regulations to deal with the modern terrorism threat, but Natural Resources Canada must weigh the impact on firearm owners. Vague storage requirements against theft leave the door wide open for many everyday Canadians to be paper criminals again.

It appears that Natural Resources Canada has focused on commercial uses of explosives and simply made blanket registrations that will severely affect individual firearm owners. Requiring explosives to be locked up to prevent theft makes sense at a remote job site or in a blasting company’s work truck, not for a few boxes of ammo in a hunter’s garage.

May I suggest a clear, well defined exception to any new storage requirements for individuals in possession of factory ammunition or reasonable quantities of the components required to self-load ammunition including black and smokeless powder.

Sincerely,

[mudbug]

Email sent to my MP :mad0030:

[jack88]

Cut from CGN.

Sent, thanks for the email.

[timsesink]

SEND OUT EMAILS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO point on complaining here if they don't hear you there!

[timsesink]

Letter I sent with slight changes.

I have read with great concern in the media and the Gazette about the proposed changes to explosives regulations by Natural Resources Canada. As a sport shooter and hunter, I believe the ministry as overlooked the vast, complicated impact to the many Canadians who purchase commercially manufactured ammunition or buy the components for reloading their own cartridges.

I understand the need to improve regulations to deal with the modern terrorism threat, but Natural Resources Canada must weigh the impact on firearm owners. Vague storage requirements against theft leave the door wide open for many everyday Canadians to be paper criminals again.

It appears that Natural Resources Canada has focused on commercial uses of explosives and simply made blanket registrations that will severely affect individual firearm owners. Requiring explosives to be locked up to prevent theft makes sense at a remote job site or in a blasting company’s work truck, not for a few boxes of ammo in a hunter’s garage. As well any powder locked in a metal container in a fire will become a bomb waiting to go off as pressure will be unable to be released creating a safety hazard especially firefighters. As for Mr. Watson's concept to build a wooden box with brass hinges, what are we in the 19th century? This harassment of law-abiding citizens needs to stop.

May I suggest a clear, well defined exception to any new storage requirements for individuals in possession of factory ammunition or reasonable quantities of the components required to self-load ammunition including black and smokeless powder. I voted for the PC's on there stand to STOP the harassment of lawful gun owning citizens, this only adds another layer of regulation that will continue to allow agencies unconstitutional access into gun owners home. In the strongest possible terms I urge you top put this concept to rest and follow the will of the people.

Sincerely,

Timothy Sesink

[rugatika]

Talked to my MP's office this morning and expressed my displeasure at reading this article. (in a polite manner). He said he had read the article this morning and would pass my concerns on to my MP.

I'm still ****ed.

Joe Oliver, the minister responsible for National Resources Canada is the MP from Eglinton - Lawrence....a part of TORONTO.

What a surprise! He better lose his ministership as well over this.

[Hagalaz]

SEND OUT EMAILS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO point on complaining here if they don't hear you there!

I plan to, but I am not holding my breath. The government in this country cares nothing for what the people have to say. Even if 70% of the populace voted against this, they would still go ahead and do it anyways.

[elkhunter11]

I plan to, but I am not holding my breath. The government in this country cares nothing for what the people have to say. Even if 70% of the populace voted against this, they would still go ahead and do it anyways.


Is that what happened with C-19?

[Jordan Smith]

Did some slight modification and editing:


Dear Mr. Lee and Mr. Watson,

I am writing this letter addressed to you both, as Mr. Lee is the MP that I voted for this passed election, and Mr. Watson is the Director and Chief inspector of explosives, responsible for the new proposed explosives regulation.

I have read with great concern in the media and the Gazette about the proposed changes to explosives regulations by Natural Resources Canada. As a sport shooter and hunter, I believe the ministry has overlooked the vast, complicated impact to the many Canadians who purchase commercially manufactured ammunition or buy the components for reloading their own cartridges.

I understand the need to improve regulations to deal with modern safety challenges, but Natural Resources Canada must weigh the impact on firearm owners and other Canadians. The elimination of the long-gun registry is a great step forward for Canada as a nation, but this new regulation proposes vague storage requirements against theft, which leave the door wide open for many everyday Canadians to be made paper criminals once again.

It appears that Natural Resources Canada has focused on commercial uses of explosives, and simply made blanket regulation that will severely affect individual firearm owners. Requiring explosives to be locked up to prevent theft makes sense at a remote job site or in a blasting company’s work truck, not for a few boxes of ammo in a hunter’s garage or basement. As well, any powder locked in a metal container in a fire will become a bomb waiting to go off, as pressure will be unable to be released, creating a safety hazard. This would be especially dangerous for fire fighters. As for Mr. Watson's concept to build a wooden box with brass hinges- we no longer live in the 19th century, and a wooden box is no more theft-proof than the locked front door of my house. This harassment of law-abiding citizens needs to stop.

May I suggest a clear, well-defined exception to any new storage requirements for individuals in possession of factory ammunition or reasonable quantities of the components required to self-load ammunition, including black and smokeless powder. I voted for the CPC based solely on its promise to stand up and STOP the harassment of lawful gun-owning citizens. This only adds another layer of regulation that will continue to allow agencies unconstitutional access into gun owners' homes. In the strongest possible terms, I urge you to put this concept to rest and follow the will of the people.

[alpining]

I highly recommend that you all make an effort to read the regulation. It's not all that bad once you know which part is relevant. Most of it has nothing to do with us. If any of this info is in error, please post a correction.

The portion applicable to "small arms cartridge users" is Part 14, which begins at section 267.

If you use factory ammo only, sections 268-270 have definitions, and "Rules for Users" are in sections 278-281.

If you reload, in addition to the above, section 282 has further definitions, and "Rules for Users" are in sections 296-305.

[alpining]

There are a few things that didn't seem right in the news story. First:

"The proposed rules will require all gun owners to install a locking box or safe in their homes."

I don't see this written in the regulation. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the terms "safe" and "locking box" (and any derivatives thereof) do not appear in the regulation. There is a clause about "storage in a manner preventing theft", but applying the reasonable man principle, it can easily be interpreted to mean simply locking the door to your house when you're not home. Isn't that the same as for firearms storage? From the evidence available, it has not been demonstrated that the regulation intends to do anything more than that.

Then there's the clause to "ensure access is limited to people authorized by the user." As a user, I'm permitted to authorize anyone, including my 2 year old niece, to access my ammunition while I'm not present (not that I WOULD, but I could). Of course, I'm NOT permitted to authorize her to load that ammunition into a locked or unlocked shotgun in my absence, but that's beyond mere access. Frankly, I'm having difficulty imagining a scenario where this would affect users at all, IF they already are abiding by the regulation in the above paragraph.

Doesn't seem all that bad to me. The new rules for storing ammo in a 'storage unit' (NOT a dwelling) seem more of a big deal, to be honest. Nobody seems to be complaining about those, though...:thinking-006:

I'm NOT saying don't be worried; I'm saying worry about the real issue, if there is one.

[Rocky7]

....Requiring explosives to be locked up to prevent theft makes sense at a remote job site or in a blasting company’s work truck, not for a few boxes of ammo in a hunter’s garage or basement.

@Jordan: You do realize that smokeless powder is not an "explosive", right? There is no comparison between blasting powder or black powder and a propellant (i.e., smokeless powder).

Furthermore, until now it has been pretty clear that a "propellant" - what we use to reload metallic cartridges - was not regulated like an explosive because it was correctly not defined as an "explosive".

[Jordan Smith]

I didn't write that, I just edited the letter :p

I agree with you that propellant powder is not the same as black powder and blasting explosives, but unfortunately, propellant is technically classified as a Class B explosive. Refer to Tony Bernardo's comment in the OP regarding this.

[rugatika]

There are a few things that didn't seem right in the news story. First:

"The proposed rules will require all gun owners to install a locking box or safe in their homes."

I don't see this written in the regulation. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the terms "safe" and "locking box" (and any derivatives thereof) do not appear in the regulation. There is a clause about "storage in a manner preventing theft", but applying the reasonable man principle, it can easily be interpreted to mean simply locking the door to your house when you're not home. Isn't that the same as for firearms storage? From the evidence available, it has not been demonstrated that the regulation intends to do anything more than that.

Then there's the clause to "ensure access is limited to people authorized by the user." As a user, I'm permitted to authorize anyone, including my 2 year old niece, to access my ammunition while I'm not present (not that I WOULD, but I could). Of course, I'm NOT permitted to authorize her to load that ammunition into a locked or unlocked shotgun in my absence, but that's beyond mere access. Frankly, I'm having difficulty imagining a scenario where this would affect users at all, IF they already are abiding by the regulation in the above paragraph.

Doesn't seem all that bad to me. The new rules for storing ammo in a 'storage unit' (NOT a dwelling) seem more of a big deal, to be honest. Nobody seems to be complaining about those, though...:thinking-006:

I'm NOT saying don't be worried; I'm saying worry about the real issue, if there is one.

So what do you think will happen if the police come into your house and find a couple 20g shells in your upland vest? Or a 22lr cartridge in the pocket of your jeans on the floor (or in the laundry basket for those more civilized folk..lol). Criminal charges. Also, how do you define/interpret "in a manner preventing theft"? How in the heck do you prevent theft of anything?? You could lock all your ammo up in a bunker buried 10 feet deep in your backyard guarded by German Shepherds and if a thief wanted in there he could still get at it.

I think Rocky or maybe Huntinstuff pointed out that this isn't about safety. It's about making owning a gun so onerous and complicated that very few want to bother with it anymore. Which I think is exactly what is going on.

[Rocky7]

I didn't write that, I just edited the letter :p

I agree with you that propellant powder is not the same as black powder and blasting explosives, but unfortunately, propellant is technically classified as a Class B explosive. Refer to Tony Bernardo's comment in the OP regarding this.

Not saying you wrote it, Jordan. I just don't agree with the comparison and wanted to alert you to that before it gets repeated enough to become "fact".

I don't know what Bernardo was talking about. Apparently, neither does he. I've read the Regulation. There's no "Class B". Here it is.

http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/regu/crc-c-599/latest/crc-c-599.html


And, here's the previous discussion, explanation and excerpts I quoted from the Explosives Act and Regulation to show that WSS was wrong in asking for names or PAL info to sell propellant or primers to anybody:

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=92889&highlight=explosive&page=2

and

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?p=1268577#post1268577

I hope those discussions are understandable.

"powder" in that Act means black powder, not propellant.

When we reload metallic cartridges, we use propellant. We call it "powder" for short, but it is properly called "propellant" and that is especially important when you're tossing the Explosives Act into the conversation. Bernardo should know this. He, above all people, should know better than to be careless with words taken from statutes.

[Bushrat]

On another note, I found out yesterday that Wholesale sports in calgary at least is trying to enforce a policy of keeping a record of powder purchases..... I told them to stuff it, I'll go buy elsewhere. Maybe right, maybe wrong, but IMO it's not required, at least yet. :angry3:

.

You do realize that when you go to other stores that don't require you to sign anything when you make a reloading component purchase of powders & primers many of those stores ask for your phone number every transaction you make with them, basically to track consumer spending habits at their stores, but it is also tracking your powder purchases. P&D, many others, even our local store Dudleys, keep track of customers buying habits that way. Unfortunately they are also tracking your reloading purchases without having to ask you to sign anything. Wholesale dosen't do this, they have millions of customers and the record keeping would be extremely onerous, or their transaction recording system, much like their inventory system:sHa_sarcasticlol: is underdeveloped, instead when you buy reloading component from places like that they ask you to sign for it. Pretty much everyone selling reloading combustables is tracking those sales one way or the other.

[Jordan Smith]

Rocky,

Hmmm, good to know. Thanks!

[Rocky7]

You do realize that when you go to other stores that don't require you to sign anything when you make a reloading component purchase of powders & primers many of those stores ask for your phone number every transaction you make with them, basically to track consumer spending habits at their stores, but it is also tracking your powder purchases. P&D, many others, even our local store Dudleys, keep track of customers buying habits that way.

I asked P&D about that. They told me I did not have to give them my personal information but that it would help if I lost a receipt. I always lose receipts so I gave them the info. I did not have to do that to make my purchase.

No other place where I buy reloading components - and I buy lots - gets my personal information.

Last time I was in BP, the cashier asked for my PAL. I explained to her that I did not need it to buy bullets or any reloading component, that I would not provide it to her and that she was breaking our Privacy legislation by asking for it. I paid and left - without providing any personal information or showing her my PAL (which stayed in my wallet). Yes, I was nice to the cashier. But I was NOT going to show my PAL or give her any personal information. Period.

BP does not do a good job of training it's cashiers, notwithstanding a corrective email from me some time ago; for which some here thought I was harsh, btw. I was not. We cannot give one inch. The reasons, I think, are quite obvious.

[SonnyJ]

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/out-of-ammo/1547695634001

[rugatika]

Discussion on Ezra right now...guest host.

After hearing conservative MP Joe Oliver speak, we need to get rid of him too. back to the loch with you nessie!!

Paraprhrasing Joe Oliver..."We hadn't changed these regs in a long time, so we needed to change them." Really? This is good governance??

Should Toronto be allowed to participate in Canadian politics anymore??

[huntinstuff]

By that way of thinking, I guess repealing another old law, written in 1934, should be next....... That being handgun registration

[Rocky7]

By that way of thinking, I guess repealing another old law, written in 1934, should be next....... That being handgun registration

BWahahahaha. Funny Ezra didn't pick up on that.

Yeah, ruatika, Joe Oliver is no rocket scientist. Seems to me that he calls a meeting of his bureaucrats to tell him he thinks. Vic Toews isn't going to win any Nobels, either. I missed Levant tonight, maybe I can catch a rerun later. He is one twisted Hebrew.:) ....With a lot of guts. I'm a big fan.

[Rocky7]

Thought I'd post a visual about how relatively harmless ammunition is in a fire. There was/is a study by some U.S. National organization of firefighters, but I can't find it on the internet any more. They concluded there is no significant danger.

Anyway, here's a video that shows ammunition "cooking off" that might break your skin. That firefighters study concluded that a canvas coat was plenty of protection against ammunition "cooking off".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfoJAwlUopI

ps: The ammo does "cook off" when it's loaded into a firearm first because the round is contained in a chamber. Otherwise, it's just a loud "PFffft". Or popcorn. Like a not-very-big firecracker.

I doubt very much that our esteemed law makers in Ottawa know any of this.

[Rackmastr]

Pretty much everyone selling reloading combustables is tracking those sales one way or the other.

I must be buying mine at the right spots...cause I never get asked anything!! And we're talking about a company that OWNS Wholesale sports....:)

[dadof5]

Santa Claus buys a lot of powder from what I have seen and heard. Most of the stores dont even look when you record "your" information in the record book...

[dadof5]

By that way of thinking, I guess repealing another old law, written in 1934, should be next....... That being handgun registration

X2.

Also, thanks for your efforts on the LGR Randy.

[32-40win]

Well. All I can do is hope the situation can be improved upon. There are a lot of vague wordings to this reg change. I was building a wooden box anyway, I don't know if it is good enough for them or not.
I like the way Dad of 5 did his letter. There certainly are a lot of questions for them to consider. I don't know how much of their Q&A release is really implemented in the regs, some of it is very hard to find the definition of in the regs, some of it I can't find as of yet.
Now that the LGR is going away, this is the kind of stuff we can expect to see occurring. Just have to keep watching and listening to what is going on.
There are plenty of backdoor tactics to be tried on us yet.
I'm sure there are some more cliffhangers in the works to be dealt with in the future.

[rugatika]

Now that the LGR is going away, this is the kind of stuff we can expect to see occurring. Just have to keep watching and listening to what is going on.
There are plenty of backdoor tactics to be tried on us yet.
I'm sure there are some more cliffhangers in the works to be dealt with in the future.

Exactly correct. This is why it's imperative that the Conservatives clean out the bureaucracy. I'm not sure if Joe Oliver came up with this on his own, or if he was completely out of the loop, and is now defending it, not wanting to appear to be totally clueless. (which he does at any rate). I suspect the later.

[elkhunter11]

From the CGN site

The Minister just held a news conference announcing that C-19 would come into force this afternoon.

He was asked by a reporter about the new explosive storage regulations. He said he had not known of them until a day or two ago but promised they would not proceed as proposed.

[eric2381]

I sent in a letter to my MP, Lavar Payne.

EH11- Hopefully what you posted will be true.

[Neil Waugh]

Vic was just scummed on Parliament Hill. Says it came as a jolt to him.
Then added:

"That regulation will no proceed."

Looks like we won another round.

[elkhunter11]

I just received a reply from Gary Breitkreuz assuring me that they are already making changes to the proposed regulations. It looks as though our e-mails and letters were effective.

[HunterDave]

I just received a reply from Gary Breitkreuz assuring me that they are already making changes to the proposed regulations. It looks as though our e-mails and letters were effective.

I started a thread to post email replies before finding this thread. I guess that it wasn't really needed. I've received one reply to my emails:

Hello Mr. (HunterDave),

Please know that we are working to rectify this. In the meantime, I have taken the liberty of forwarding your email along to Natural Resources Minister Joe Oliver so that he is aware of the concerns you have raised.

Garry Breitkreuz, M.P.

Yorkton-Melville

[guywiththemule]

I started a thread to post email replies before finding this thread. I guess that it wasn't really needed. I've received one reply to my emails:

Hello Mr. (HunterDave),

Please know that we are working to rectify this. In the meantime, I have taken the liberty of forwarding your email along to Natural Resources Minister Joe Oliver so that he is aware of the concerns you have raised.

Garry Breitkreuz, M.P.

Yorkton-Melville

Yep,received the same repy.

[rugatika]

Wish my MP was still Rona Ambrose...I'd give her a donation and a kiss and a hug. Tim Uppal will have to settle for just a donation.

[Rocky7]

I didn't get a reply to my thoughtful email.:(

Maybe I shouldn't have used the words "trash can"??

[greylynx]

OK guys, Time to contact those radio talk show producers that like stories with juicy dirt

From my contacts it seems there are a few AO guys that contact all corners of the media. Good going gentlemen and ladies too.

Lets do it again.

[west250]

I've been locking my ammo up in a steel storage box for years. No big deal, keeps little hands out...

[guywiththemule]

I've been locking my ammo up in a steel storage box for years. No big deal, keeps little hands out...

I guess some people will never get "it". "No big deal....right??":snapoutofit:

[west250]

To lock up ammo? No it's not, I've gotten used to it since having kids around. They don't have to pass some stupid law to make that happen, common sense should dictate. That's one of the problems with society today, it feels that it has to make laws to enforce common sense.

I don't know how they'll be able to enforce it out in the woods when at a hunt camp etc.

[jack88]

I've been locking my ammo up in a steel storage box for years. No big deal, keeps little hands out...

SIGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH:snapoutofit:

[greylynx]

SIGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH:snapoutofit:

x2

What if someone who is pixxed off at you stashes ammuntion all over your property and calls in a complaint.

Of course that would never happen to you.:sHa_sarcasticlol::sHa_sarcasticlol:

[west250]

x2

What if someone who is pixxed off at you stashes ammuntion all over your property and calls in a complaint.

Of course that would never happen to you.:sHa_sarcasticlol::sHa_sarcasticlol:

There's better ways to pinch me, I bend all sorts of laws. Besides, only us good honest people can buy ammo cause we have a PAL!

How about a better reason?

[riden]

Thought I'd post a visual about how relatively harmless ammunition is in a fire. There was/is a study by some U.S. National organization of firefighters, but I can't find it on the internet any more. They concluded there is no significant danger.

Anyway, here's a video that shows ammunition "cooking off" that might break your skin. That firefighters study concluded that a canvas coat was plenty of protection against ammunition "cooking off".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfoJAwlUopI

ps: The ammo does "cook off" when it's loaded into a firearm first because the round is contained in a chamber. Otherwise, it's just a loud "PFffft". Or popcorn. Like a not-very-big firecracker.

I doubt very much that our esteemed law makers in Ottawa know any of this.

5ish years ago we had a bad tent fire in moose camp, tent went up really fast.

We were watching the blaze about 35 ft away in our long johns when some 270 wsm in my jacket went off. One hit my buddy square in the chest---not even a bruise.

Mind you scared the begezzus out of him and he still screamed "I been shot, I've been shot" like a scared girl. But no broken skin.

Mind you, when he tells the story..............

[greylynx]

There's better ways to pinch me, I bend all sorts of laws. Besides, only us good honest people can buy ammo cause we have a PAL!

How about a better reason?

Honest? You are never honest in a policeman's eyes.

I am glad you are as clean as jesus.

I strive to be like you every day.

[32-40win]

Definitely was an added smile on the sight of Toews saying that today.
Certainly not a good political strategy to have let that slide after getting the LGR done. Be like shooting themselves in the foot.
Something tells me there will be a lot of smiling faces at the gun show lineup in the AM. Could be a good time for Harper to be in front of that crowd, he may actually get a cheer from them.

[220swifty]

To lock up ammo? No it's not, I've gotten used to it since having kids around. They don't have to pass some stupid law to make that happen, common sense should dictate. That's one of the problems with society today, it feels that it has to make laws to enforce common sense.

I don't know how they'll be able to enforce it out in the woods when at a hunt camp etc.

If that is your personal choice, good on you, no judgement there. However, it isn't common sense, just a personal decision for your personal situation. Nobody should have the ability to tell us how we operate our own households.

[Rocky7]

5ish years ago we had a bad tent fire in moose camp, tent went up really fast.

We were watching the blaze about 35 ft away in our long johns when some 270 wsm in my jacket went off. One hit my buddy square in the chest---not even a bruise.

Mind you scared the begezzus out of him and he still screamed "I been shot, I've been shot" like a scared girl. But no broken skin.

Mind you, when he tells the story..............

Now, THAT would have been funny.:sHa_shakeshout: Didja get any pictures?

I didn't know about the U.S. Firefighters study or that YouTube video I posted when I first started objecting to various stories about ammo "cooking off", but I do remember somebody tossing some .22 ammo into a cookstove just for giggles. The Cook was pretty jumpy for a while. Nobody died.

Still makes me grind my teeth to think about those poor souls in Slave Lake who had their privacy ripped away and guns seized by GRC's who entered abandoned homes without warrants to look for guns and ammo because - they said - there was a public danger in stored ammo "cooking off" if the fire kicked up again.

That was low-down and dirty, IMO.

[Dick284]

Thank Gawd this seems to have been given the heave ho by the Feds.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/politics/archives/2012/04/20120405-175338.html

I just want to know how the azzhats who dreamed up this stuff, got the notion to do so, and if this wasn't from the direction of the Government, where and what did they charge their time too.:thinking-006:

Another glorious waste of my Tax dollars (yours too)

[west250]

Honest? You are never honest in a policeman's eyes.

I am glad you are as clean as jesus.

I strive to be like you every day.

Totally missed it didn't ya...

[airbornedeerhunter]

How ammo is stored is a personal choice, right now my little ones are too small to even concieve what a firearm is let alone figure out how to load one so I've got ammo all over the garage, in the truck, in the utility room above the gun locker etc. All my guns are locked up in a metal gun locker and the only key is hidden so well even I sometimes forget where I stashed it. Even when they get older I won't lock up the ammo, they'll have no acces to firearms unless I'm with them so the ammo is useless to them, besides they'll know better than to touch any of it anyway. The world is changing and the old days of having the traditional gun rack on the living or rec-room wall with ammo is the drawer underneath it like my grandfather had, as well as on our rec-room wall when I was a kid are pretty much over. Lock up your ammo if you want, don't lock if you want it's your choice. But don't be telling anyone else how they should safely store it in their own home. May the registry rot in hell with Allan Rock, Anne McClellan, Jean Chreitien and Wendy Cukier!

[Rocky7]

The world is changing and the old days of having ... are pretty much over.

Depends.:)

Lock up your ammo if you want, don't lock if you want it's your choice. But don't be telling anyone else how they should safely store it in their own home. May the registry rot in hell with Allan Rock, Anne McClellan, Jean Chreitien and Wendy Cukier!

10-4.

That's exactly the way it ought to be. We're all grown-ups.....mostly.

[west250]

How ammo is stored is a personal choice, right now my little ones are too small to even concieve what a firearm is let alone figure out how to load one so I've got ammo all over the garage, in the truck, in the utility room above the gun locker etc. All my guns are locked up in a metal gun locker and the only key is hidden so well even I sometimes forget where I stashed it. Even when they get older I won't lock up the ammo, they'll have no acces to firearms unless I'm with them so the ammo is useless to them, besides they'll know better than to touch any of it anyway. The world is changing and the old days of having the traditional gun rack on the living or rec-room wall with ammo is the drawer underneath it like my grandfather had, as well as on our rec-room wall when I was a kid are pretty much over. Lock up your ammo if you want, don't lock if you want it's your choice. But don't be telling anyone else how they should safely store it in their own home. May the registry rot in hell with Allan Rock, Anne McClellan, Jean Chreitien and Wendy Cukier!


Agreed...

Politicians and their laws; next thing they'll want to do is make a law to ban veterans from smoking in the Legion.

[densa44]

Don't blame the monkey, speak to the organ grinder. This is gone way past something civil servants could have started on their own. This has been sent to the lawyers who have drafted a potential piece of legislation!

Something is going on, it will need our vigilance.

You can believe that they (the politicians) are glad to get rid of the LGR but I don't trust them one bit. If they think a new law like this will help them get a few votes, it will soon be a law!

[greylynx]

I wonder if this law would apply to Reserves?

For example, Treaty Seven people celebrate Bow and Arrow Days when Whitie gives everyone their yearly supply of ammunition.

When I was living on the reserve the folks would start a huge bonfire, throw the ammo in the fire and run behind a tree.

Next Morning ammunition was scattered everywhere.

More Indian folks in jail?

[Seer2012]

Hey all ,
In order to keep my guns and ammo safe from theft anyway, I put a locking knob on the door to the room , and the same on the closet where they are. They only cost $15 each the store, keyed them alike for free so there's less hassle to open them when I need access. but more hassle for a thief, face it Ottawa if a thief wants something they are probably going to get it I wonder if a locked closet constitutes a "container" ?. On the same subject I am studying for my restricted PAL, and there is a section on the safe storage of amunition, which you would get wrong on the test if you said yes to storing ammo in a sealed container, due to the unsafe nature in the event of a fire!!!

[haffordite]

I had contacted my MP in regards to the proposed legislation. Got a repy this morning. He tells me the government does not intend to procede with the proposed legislation. Apparently Vic Toes made that statement in the House. Hope he means it. Maybe the good guys finally won one??????

[ShawnM]

This was all dreamed up by a beaurecrat that was put in place by the Liberal government. Remember this. C-68 was their brainchild and the Liberals were sure to stuff party members and loyalists all over the federal services. There will still be things like this pop up from time to time.

[dantonsen]

Now, THAT would have been funny.:sHa_shakeshout: Didja get any pictures?

I didn't know about the U.S. Firefighters study or that YouTube video I posted when I first started objecting to various stories about ammo "cooking off", but I do remember somebody tossing some .22 ammo into a cookstove just for giggles. The Cook was pretty jumpy for a while. Nobody died.

Still makes me grind my teeth to think about those poor souls in Slave Lake who had their privacy ripped away and guns seized by GRC's who entered abandoned homes without warrants to look for guns and ammo because - they said - there was a public danger in stored ammo "cooking off" if the fire kicked up again.

That was low-down and dirty, IMO.



ammo without a gun is pretty useless... my neighbours garage burnt down next to my cabin in BC and fried their gun collection so when they knocked the rest of the garage down they threw all the ammo for those guns on the fire. Not a single mark on the cedar siding of that cabin and the fire was maybe 40 feet away?

[trooper]

I was in Wholesale sports today and bought a couple of bricks of .22 ammo they asked to see my PAL and took no info down. I'm good with that I also bought a box of Sierra
.224 dia Hollow point bullets (55 gn). No worries there. I guess showing the PAL was for the .22 long rifle ammo, not the reloading component.

[slam]

Since it is getting close to the 75 days since the introduction of the new Explsove Act to deal with ammo/ reloading supplies storage and given the CFOs actions do you think these guys will follow suite and defy Vic Toes directives?

[Mekanik]

Bought ammo today and showed my PAL, no info taken.

As to the debate on locking your ammunition up, I currently have someone living in my house I can't trust. Really, it's not her, it's the people she chooses to associate with and will be trying to sneak onto my property despite being told not to. My case is locked, there are trigger guards on the contents and the ammo is tucked away in yet another locked box away from the rifles. Pain in my posterior but I do what I must.

Glad this seems to be a dead issue. For now.