Tar Sands CBC Doc.

[Cletus]

Wondering if anyone seen the show last night and what they thought of it. It hade some really good points in regards to the negative effects this boom is having on our country. I found it interesting that the projected pipe lines all head straight south to the States, while none are planned to feed eastern Canada. Also interesting is how Norway set aside 380 billion (compared to our 16.6 billion) and are now investing elsewhere (Alberta)..........

[tallguy]

X2. Great doc. i really liked the discussion about royaltys, and how we charge the smallest amount in the world (2$ a barrel).
The whole thing kind of made me question the so called Alberta advantage, esspecially after hearing that in 4 years we will meet or even surpass Kuwaits production...which begs the question " where are our glistening skyscrapers, our new modern hospitals, our new and re done roads, our low gas prices, our free health care, ect ect. I think we've been sold short.

[LongDraw]

Go to an Emergency room in Calgary or Edmonton. You'd figure we were third world from that perspective.

[Gunner22a]

Now working in the emergency management business for the province I have a relativly good understanding of the environmental impact and the dangers posed by this industry. What amazed me was the fact that there is an area the size of the State of Florida dug up. I knew it was big but no where near that size.

[bowchaser]

X2. Great doc. i really liked the discussion about royaltys, and how we charge the smallest amount in the world (2$ a barrel).
The whole thing kind of made me question the so called Alberta advantage, esspecially after hearing that in 4 years we will meet or even surpass Kuwaits production...which begs the question " where are our glistening skyscrapers, our new modern hospitals, our new and re done roads, our low gas prices, our free health care, ect ect. I think we've been sold short.
now we are seeing $100+ oil, the royalty issue should be brought up again. Totally agree, Suncor makes upwards of $75 profit on a $100 barrel. We should be getting some breaks at the pumps.

[brownbomber]

think city hospitals are bad? try small town hospitals, a few weeks back my wife was around 8 months prego, started losing some fluid, rush her to hospital to see what the deuce and they had to run to the local drugstore to get ph strips to see if it was amniotic fluid, i could have done that and i could have taken her a to a lot better hospital, the staff was trying hard and were doing there best but they are not prioritized to get basic things, then they wanted to listen to the babys heartbeat and searched 15 minutes for a 20 year old doppler. turned out nothing was wrong but in the end it was really shocking to see the state of health care here, alberta advantage my butt!!!! total mismanagement of funds, disgusting considering we pay premiums in this province.

[Okotokian]

X2. Great doc. i really liked the discussion about royaltys, and how we charge the smallest amount in the world (2$ a barrel).
The whole thing kind of made me question the so called Alberta advantage, esspecially after hearing that in 4 years we will meet or even surpass Kuwaits production...which begs the question " where are our glistening skyscrapers, our new modern hospitals, our new and re done roads, our low gas prices, our free health care, ect ect. I think we've been sold short.

Whoa. There are issues, but let's not get all one sided. I work for the company building those pipelines south, and I do work in a "glistening skyscraper" in Calgary, and have free healthcare. And we are struggling to hire more folks for really good paying jobs here in Alberta. I'd say that's an advantage.

But glad you guys are listening to CBC and taking it as gospel. Did you know that the only provincial flag flying outside of CBC headquarters in Toronto is the Ontario flag? True. :tongue2: LOL

[FiveO]

The PC government has us all bent over a barrel and brain washed. No long term vision for the province just rape and pilage while you can.
I would like to know how the boom (rape and pilage) has benefited the average Albertian?. I know it hasnt done me any good what so ever probably cost me money if anything.

[KyleM]

Okotokian, this provinces disadvantage is its advantage.

You may be struggling to find employees but where are they comming from?
Not Alberta. People with one thing on their minds are moving here, money.

The problem with that is, as you guys saw with the election, is that people from out of province dont give two hoots what happens here as far as environmental and political issues.

Hell, Im one of them although I consider myself different. I care what happens with Alberta as I see it as part of Canada.
Iam with the rest of you guys though, if they pull out to save the provinces environment, POOF.....there goes my pay cheque.

It isnt right whats happening here and it will be talked about for hundreds of years to come but Ill be the last guy to complain about it.

[Okotokian]

You may be struggling to find employees but where are they comming from?
Not Alberta. People with one thing on their minds are moving here, money.



Isn't that what most people immigrate to a new place for? Pretty sure my great grandparents were in that boat. Doesn't mean they don't care about the environment or politics in their new land. The number of immigrants running for office in in Edmonton and Calgary would tend to discount your theory. Count the turbans in any party nomination meeting in NE Calgary. And I'm not saying that in a negative way, but those communities are into it!

[ABDUKNUT]

I read the other day, that in Venezuela, gasoline costs 7 cents a GALLON!

[tallguy]

I read the other day, that in Venezuela, gasoline costs 7 cents a GALLON!

venezuala, UAE, Kuwait, Iran....
all of the major players subsidize gsoline for their people...except us.

[KyleM]

I realize thats what people come here for, thats why Im here.
I guess we'll hafta agree to disagree because from my point of view
it seems like 80% of people that come here to work dont give a rats
arse what happens here......aslong as their bank accounts keep flowing.

A strong earning is not always whats best for a province.

[Okotokian]

I would like to know how the boom (rape and pilage) has benefited the average Albertian?. I know it hasnt done me any good what so ever probably cost me money if anything.

StatsCan. Median Family income 2005. Canada $60,600. B.C. $58,500, Sask. $56,300, Alberta $71,000. Someone is getting a benefit...., and more likely to have a job, and paying less taxes to boot. The average Albertan is doing just fine, and the recent election results would tend to underscore our contented state LOL

Not saying there aren't problems and issues to be addressed, but when someone says the average albertan hasn't benefitted from our economic situation, well, I want some of what he's smoking.

[BUD]

Isn't that what most people immigrate to a new place for? Pretty sure my great grandparents were in that boat. Doesn't mean they don't care about the environment or politics in their new land. The number of immigrants running for office in in Edmonton and Calgary would tend to discount your theory. Count the turbans in any party nomination meeting in NE Calgary. And I'm not saying that in a negative way, but those communities are into it!

Sure they are , they want to take over our country.

[BUD]

StatsCan. Median Family income 2005. Canada $60,600. B.C. $58,500, Sask. $56,300, Alberta $71,000. Someone is getting a benefit...., and more likely to have a job, and paying less taxes to boot. The average Albertan is doing just fine, and the recent election results would tend to underscore our contented state LOL

Not saying there aren't problems and issues to be addressed, but when someone says the average albertan hasn't benefitted from our economic situation, well, I want some of what he's smoking.

Haaaaaaa , yea , well l,m not smoking anything , l cant afford it , l worked on the same job for 35 years , am now retired , make 25,000 a year off my pensions that l paid in to , l take home after taxes 1,900 per month .
Last year l had to pay 600 bucks back in taxes , they say l make to much money ,then how come l,m flat broke the third week of every month.
l own my own house and deht free , after l pay utilitys , insurance ,health premiums, and groc , usually have 500 bucks to live on , can hardly buy a beer.
Now with the price of gas , a trip to Balzac means a loan from the bank.

[tallguy]

StatsCan. Median Family income 2005. Canada $60,600. B.C. $58,500, Sask. $56,300, Alberta $71,000. Someone is getting a benefit...., and more likely to have a job, and paying less taxes to boot. The average Albertan is doing just fine, and the recent election results would tend to underscore our contented state LOL

Not saying there aren't problems and issues to be addressed, but when someone says the average albertan hasn't benefitted from our economic situation, well, I want some of what he's smoking.

Oko, thats easy to say if you work for an oil company and have an office in one of the towers in calgary...we're talking average albertans.

[Cletus]

I dont think it's fair to say people are taking CBC as gospel, just taking advantage of this forum as a gateway to get more information and be more educated on the subject.
Although it is of course a double edged sword regarding pros vs. cons how can you expect to have this kind of development at this pace without society have it's lurky shadows rear its ugly head (homeless, drugs, healthcare, prostitution etc...) I do not however understand how people say this boom is not good for the average person. Yeah, it's expensive and so on..................but it sure is nice that I don't have to leave my home province to go get a job. You gotta wake up and be thankful right now to have all this opportunity, am I wrong?

[Okotokian]

Oko, thats easy to say if you work for an oil company and have an office in one of the towers in calgary...we're talking average albertans.

Tallguy, Median means half make under that number and half make over it. The Median isn't pushed up because a small number of people make a ton, it shows that overall the general population makes more here. There all kinds of negative things one could rightly say about the government, the boom, etc. But saying that the majority of Albertans aren't financially better off than the majority of people in other provinces simply isn't rooted in any sort of fact. That's all I'm saying.

[brownbomber]

okay okotokian,
not saying yeah we haven't benefited we made a lot of money, we have jobs, but what about the sad state of our healthcare? pitiful when you speak of how much money we make and even if we do have a low tax rate we are still contributing enough to have a lot better healthcare than when times were tough in the province but it isn't. look at the enviromental factors, yeah i work in the patch but i know the land is suffering. look at the crackheads in every small town in alberta, crime sucks!!! losers going from one job to another because like you said everyone is shorthanded and hiring every bum with a pair of boots. Look at our highways, look at the streets in edmonton and calgary!!
so yeah we did benefit, most of us make lots of money, but with that it's brought a lot of negative stuff.
I'm grateful for what i have but i don't blindly follow the company line about enviromental and societal concern, it's about keeping up appearances and making money and if you don't believe that maybe i should be speaking to you in BAAAA's just like a sheep.

[Bushrat]

What amazed me was the fact that there is an area the size of the State of Florida dug up. I knew it was big but no where near that size.

See thats what I hate about the CBC when they report on something, they say it in a way that people take literally, when in fact the oilsands may cover an area the size of Florida, they certainly havent dug up anything remotely near that yet.

[Okotokian]

okay okotokian,
not saying yeah we haven't benefited we made a lot of money, we have jobs, but what about the sad state of our healthcare? pitiful when you speak of how much money we make and even if we do have a low tax rate we are still contributing enough to have a lot better healthcare than when times were tough in the province but it isn't. look at the enviromental factors, yeah i work in the patch but i know the land is suffering. look at the crackheads in every small town in alberta, crime sucks!!! losers going from one job to another because like you said everyone is shorthanded and hiring every bum with a pair of boots. Look at our highways, look at the streets in edmonton and calgary!!
so yeah we did benefit, most of us make lots of money, but with that it's brought a lot of negative stuff.
I'm grateful for what i have but i don't blindly follow the company line about enviromental and societal concern, it's about keeping up appearances and making money and if you don't believe that maybe i should be speaking to you in BAAAA's just like a sheep.

OK, now some of those things I do agree with! :) But with your last blanket statement perhaps you should join Bud's "I Hate Free Enterprise and All Corporations Are Evil" Party :lol: Baaaaaaaaa Baaaaaaaa LOL :wave:

(said with good humour, honest)

[TheClash]

Sure they are , they want to take over our country.

and where did we get it from???......

[tallguy]

I can agree with that Oko, the majority of us DO have it a little better. but like you said, its a mean average. what im trying to say is there is a far bigger gap between rich and poor these days. there is almost no more middle class-the have's and the have nots. thats just not money either. thats benifits, time with family, quality of life, quality of shelter-- the mean average is higher, becouse the rich are richer

[Okotokian]

and where did we get it from???......

Shhhh Clash, don't go there LOL

[TheClash]

Shhhh Clash, don't go there LOL



haha i know i know...i just hate that "stealing our country" crap....

[CNP]

Not happy..............go live in Venezuela. It's such a nice place.:rolleyes: No corruption there....no way Hose'

Doesn't matter what some people have........it's never enough and because somebody else has it they feel they should have it.

That shot about royalties reallty makes me shake my head.........the cost of producing a barrel of oil in AB is probably not the same as in Kuwait (where it gushes out of the ground):rolleyes:. But some people don't want to hear that......they just want to keep repeating the same mantra.

[geezer55]

Originally Posted by ABDUKNUT
I read the other day, that in Venezuela, gasoline costs 7 cents a GALLON!

venezuala, UAE, Kuwait, Iran....
all of the major players subsidize gsoline for their people...except us.

We can blame some of our fuel cost on NAFTA . . . "we cannot charge the U.S. more than we pay in Canada for that energy." There is no free trade agreement between the countries listed above and the USA if there was they probably would have to pay a much higher price for fuel.

[lippy]

Some good points..I agree that we should be receiving a royalty cheque every year and it should be based on the going price of a barrel of crude at that particular time..after all the oil belong to the people of Alberta not to the Government. Alaska citizens get a royalty cheque for every man,woman and child annually..based on the price of crude. I do not know exactly how the rebate works however I am sure it is compensation for environmental issues and inconveniences due to oil exploration and the subsequent fallout of a oil based economy ie. higher prices at the pumps= higher prices for food, clothing and shelter( the basic needs )it also means immigration of people seeking all that bling! which puts a strain on the health care system, hospitals, housing etc.blah.blah.blah.
I have another thing to add to this report by CBC. They fail to mention that in actual fact Saskatchewan holds more oil under their turf than Alberta has under ours.
The other thing is oil is going to continue to rise in value until it is no longer economically viable to exloit it. We will see $200.00 a barrel oil and probably gas at $2.00 a litre at the pumps and this isn't too far away either. With my pension I look forward to collecting the food stamps and my royalty cheque from the government however I may have to move to Saskatchewan to collect it.:)

[genek270]

If you're so upset with the current system why don't you run for public office? Or, why don't you complain to your MLA? Or, why didn't you round up all your socialist friends and get them to vote NDP?
And to those who think there's more oil in Saskabush than Alberta why aren't they producing it???

[Donny Bear]

Not happy..............go live in Venezuela. It's such a nice place.:rolleyes: No corruption there....no way Hose'

Doesn't matter what some people have........it's never enough and because somebody else has it they feel they should have it.

That shot about royalties reallty makes me shake my head.........the cost of producing a barrel of oil in AB is probably not the same as in Kuwait (where it gushes out of the ground):rolleyes:. But some people don't want to hear that......they just want to keep repeating the same mantra.

Hey don't tell the people on this thread that a Labourer in some of those fine places makes $4 bucks a day and the light gravity crude flows without the aid of pumps or being cooked out in a recovery process. Engineers make $20 per day [B]They Will all want to go!!![B] Ok let them go but they can't come back DEAL!

[CNP]

Hey don't tell the people on this thread that a Labourer in some of those fine places makes $4 bucks a day and the light gravity crude flows without the aid of pumps or being cooked out in a recovery process. Engineers make $20 per day [b]They Will all want to go!!![b] Ok let them go but they can't come back DEAL!

Yeah............and there is a cost to the .07 gallon too. You can't refine it for that price...........the Venezulean gov't subsidizes it.........so they get cheap gas.............the question is........what don't they get because of all the money going to subsidize gas? The socialists should be worried about that one:wave:

[catnthehat]

Now working in the emergency management business for the province I have a relativly good understanding of the environmental impact and the dangers posed by this industry. What amazed me was the fact that there is an area the size of the State of Florida dug up. I knew it was big but no where near that size.
I'd like to see that "area".
I've been here for over 30 years and have yet to figure that one out.
Ye, there is a lot of the land that is dig up, but it is nowhere near the size of Florida.
Cat

[BEL]

The only thing I am really pi$%ed off about is the fact that Klein did not build up the Heritage Trust Fund. He was actually using the interest to spend on his projects. Stelmach is not doing enought to build it up because of Klein's mistakes. Remember what the program outlined, Norway started their fund about the same time we did-maybe they copied Lougheed. Not sure. This could of secured our future. BEL

[Tuc]

The PC government has us all bent over a barrel and brain washed. No long term vision for the province just rape and pilage while you can.
I would like to know how the boom (rape and pilage) has benefited the average Albertian?. I know it hasnt done me any good what so ever probably cost me money if anything.

x2

[willy]

LOL what a bunch BS people comparing Canada to places like iran and venezuala. Are healthcare always gets tromped on but what province is better? You hear it in every province.
You dont like Alberta the door swings both ways pack up and move somewhere else.

[BUD]

OK, now some of those things I do agree with! :) But with your last blanket statement perhaps you should join Bud's "I Hate Free Enterprise and All Corporations Are Evil" Party :lol: Baaaaaaaaa Baaaaaaaa LOL :wave:

(said with good humour, honest)

Excuse meeeeee , wher did l say that , l just said l,m broke , no boom in my house.

[TreeGuy]

I moved to Alberta in 1995. I love this province and consider myself an Albertan. Alberta has given me a career, a beautiful wife, two amazing children and more opportunities than I could ever wish for. And that is what frustrates me so much about this province and its people. You do NOT understand how good we have it here!

This is probably the greatest place to live on Earth, but since day one all I've heard is whining! Go live in Glace Bay, NS for a year and see what real life is like. Or how about Kahbul, Afghanistan?

My entire life is due to the boom, and I will NEVER complain about it. I just wish that people had vision that extended beyond the tips of their noses and really made an effort to gain some perspective. End of rant........:mad:

Tree

[brownbomber]

so just a informal poll here but how many who have weighed in on this are born albertans? and how many are second generation? or more? i'm sure there is someone here that's somehow releated to the first white guy to even consider setting foot here but anyway...... i know some people who have some insande ideas on alberta immigration considering everyone who isn't 2nd generation to be a refugee ....yeah crazy isn't it????
I always thought that we should question some government policy, i believe they do need checks and balances and with that do their best to govern in a fair way. I do have perspective I'm from here, I don't wanna move to a different country never mind the least coast, and I don't think anyone who questions ruling party policy doesn't appreciate what's going on here they just feel as having contributed to the boom themselves they have a right to wonder what is going back into the community. I really wish people who are against complaining would gain some perspective, you're a tax payer and i'm sure most of us are significant ones so you should question where your money is going.
Can't say that I agree with a rebate cheque i would rather see rural hospitals modernized or schools renovated or new textbooks purchases my wifes little sister is in grade 9 and has text books that were once in the hands of names i reckognize from playing hockey against and i'm 31 so that text book is at least 16 years old.
I guess last thoughts would be this, I'm from here, was born here and am never leaving, I'll always question what's going on for the good of my family and the good of my province, it's very true that the door swings both ways and if you don't believe in a citizen's right to complain then go back where you came from, my alberta is about making the place better and as far as i know you do that by voicing your opinion not just hoping for positive change to go along with the boom. Once you've been here long enough you'll understand what my perspective is, it's not whining it's genuine care for my future generations province.

[catnthehat]

Manitoba born, but spent most of my life here, right in the Fort, and yes, Im one of those Bas%$ds that is responsible for tearing up the land, cutting down the trees and generally wreaking havoc - oh, and in a roundabout way, putting gas in tanks, and heating people's homes!
Cat

[Donny Bear]

I moved to Alberta in 1995. I love this province and consider myself an Albertan. Alberta has given me a career, a beautiful wife, two amazing children and more opportunities than I could ever wish for. And that is what frustrates me so much about this province and its people. You do NOT understand how good we have it here!

This is probably the greatest place to live on Earth, but since day one all I've heard is whining! Go live in Glace Bay, NS for a year and see what real life is like. Or how about Kahbul, Afghanistan?

My entire life is due to the boom, and I will NEVER complain about it. I just wish that people had vision that extended beyond the tips of their noses and really made an effort to gain some perspective. End of rant........:mad:

Tree

I am born and raised true BLUE yes conservative Blue I love my Province and all who come to know and love her she is a fair and beautiful lass the rest can kis my :tongue2: oop's just about said a No No and as for you Cat of al the Bas%$*ds you are one of my favorite :D
Hats of to a Cat and a Tree :cool:

[sonny]

What would a person expect to hear or see from a CBC doc. On Western Canada. The CBC is a mouth piece for eastern Canadian liberals and socialists , Who do not like the feeling of the power shift to Western Canada.
Canada does not give oil and gas away to any other country, it is sold to them. As a result Alberta has huge cash surpluses, and the rest of Canada also gets huge amounts money from Alberta,s oil, Think back a few years ago when a barrel of oil was selling for 8$ to 12$ a barrel, Eastern Canada did give a rats azz for Alberta,
The doc. also referred to Canadians coming to Alberta from eastern Canada as refugees, come on give us a break, People in Canada follow the money, rather staying in Ont. PEI, Man. working for example at MacDonalds for 10$ an hour they can come to Alberta and make 20$ an hour and much more in Alberta, what wrong with that.
And yes countrys such as Venezuela,Iran, They do sell gas the likes of 10 cents a gallon, if its so good in these 3rd world countrys, go and live there , see how good the Health care programs, Wages are, Canada is still by far the best in the world.
Also a lot of people think Alberta sells oil at a low price, why does no one complain about the province of Quebec selling thier Hydro to the USA at rock bottom prices for a lot of years, How come.
I suppose i am one of those refugees that come to Alberta in 1960 from Sask. looking for a better paying job,better life-style, I have never looked back . I have worked in most parts of Canada from the east coast to B.C. and in the yukon and NWT,s all on account of the oil industry in Alberta.
Alberta is no.1 in Canada, And the World, for a good season

[catnthehat]

I haven't seen too much good of anything on the TV or heard much positive stuff on the radio lately if it has to do with Ft. McMurray, and that is sad, because this town has some good points.

As far as people slagging others coming here, I hear that all the time as well, and being a union business agent it really gets me ticked off with my members, because they are often talking about other memebrs of our union who are "travel cards" from other parts of Canada and even the States.
These people are following the jobs, as was already stated, and have as much right as anyone here, be they union or non union as long as they treat us with respect, and our province.
that's only my opinion mind you, and it may not jibe with others.
Cat

[Donny Bear]

I haven't seen too much good of anything on the TV or heard much positive stuff on the radio lately if it has to do with Ft. McMurray, and that is sad, because this town has some good points.

As far as people slagging others coming here, I hear that all the time as well, and being a union business agent it really gets me ticked off with my members, because they are often talking about other memebrs of our union who are "travel cards" from other parts of Canada and even the States.
These people are following the jobs, as was already stated, and have as much right as anyone here, be they union or non union as long as they treat us with respect, and our province.
that's only my opinion mind you, and it may not jibe with others.
Cat

Agreed! It's a great opinion and I share it with you 100% Cat anyone willing to leave it all an come to work is welcome live and enjoy!

If you don't like it leave or keep it to yourself. As for the CBC it's long past time that this blood sucking tick was removed from the tax payers A-- umh ah Butt yeah butt.

[CNP]

so just a informal poll here but how many who have weighed in on this are born albertans? and how many are second generation? or more? i'm sure there is someone here that's somehow releated to the first white guy to even consider setting foot here but anyway...... i know some people who have some insande ideas on alberta immigration considering everyone who isn't 2nd generation to be a refugee ....yeah crazy isn't it????
I always thought that we should question some government policy, i believe they do need checks and balances and with that do their best to govern in a fair way. I do have perspective I'm from here, I don't wanna move to a different country never mind the least coast, and I don't think anyone who questions ruling party policy doesn't appreciate what's going on here they just feel as having contributed to the boom themselves they have a right to wonder what is going back into the community. I really wish people who are against complaining would gain some perspective, you're a tax payer and i'm sure most of us are significant ones so you should question where your money is going.
Can't say that I agree with a rebate cheque i would rather see rural hospitals modernized or schools renovated or new textbooks purchases my wifes little sister is in grade 9 and has text books that were once in the hands of names i reckognize from playing hockey against and i'm 31 so that text book is at least 16 years old.
I guess last thoughts would be this, I'm from here, was born here and am never leaving, I'll always question what's going on for the good of my family and the good of my province, it's very true that the door swings both ways and if you don't believe in a citizen's right to complain then go back where you came from, my alberta is about making the place better and as far as i know you do that by voicing your opinion not just hoping for positive change to go along with the boom. Once you've been here long enough you'll understand what my perspective is, it's not whining it's genuine care for my future generations province.

I'm not an original Albertan...I'm a born again Albertan lol.......and never leaving. 3rd generation Canadian. Yes I'm a taxpayer and I want the government to be involved in my life as little as possible. That means fewer social programmes, fewer laws and smaller government.....but "Canadian Values" are albout social programmes and complaining about how they should get this or that and not pay for it or complaing about who get's what and how come I don't get it. That kind of complaining is not productive and we've got to replace it with substance/action. We won't elect a government who has the agenda to do the right things...too scary for us....too much tough love. Too difficult to do the right things......ouch. I predict our health care system will never get better without some form of privatization....we will always be short of Dr's and nurses and hospitals. We will always run in a deficit situation with these resources BECAUSE it is a government legislated/controlled/funded system. It's "what you can do for your Country.....not what your Country can do for you" (right...not my words) but they are words to live by. This thread isn't about schools, hospitals, Kuwait, Venezuela, Alaska, Heritage Fund it's about a CBC documentary on the Tarsands......but off we go.

[sjd]

I've got nothing against responsible oil sands development, but what is going on north of Fort McMurray is anything but responsible. We seem to have bought the line that we can't expect the oil companies to protect the environment otherwise they'll pack up an leave - trouble is - they have nowhere else to go - with 90% of the worlds oil locked up by state oil companies and closed regimes, we should be smarter about it.

What does responsible oil sands development look like? Capture and store that CO2, stop producing liquid tailings (the technology exists to not create it, but is costs a couple of bucks per barrel more, so the companies leave us toxic lagoons instead). Require mandatory reclamation to forest, and don't let companies keep mining until they have certified the first mess as reclaimed. (Don't buy the Syncrude - tame bison spin - in 40 years nothing has been certified as reclaimed. And finally, don't suck the river dry in late winter, make the companies store water or stop production when the river is being damaged.

The companies won't do any of this voluntarily and our timid government won't require it - bamboozled by all those Calgary lobbyists who say environmental standards will force the projects to leave - yeah right, to say Nigeria?

Sure my house has increased in value in this boom, but its sure going to be a #$%%y Province for my grandkids. There is a reason that 90% of those oil industry execs move to BC as soon as they've made their pile. They don't give a damn about this province. My family have been here for the long run, and it drives me nuts that we are building a disposable province - pillage your share and then get the hell out.

I'm with Peter Lougheed when he said what is going on is wrong. One project at a time with tough environmental standards would still enable full employment, without the need to import tens of thousands of workers, and the associated inflation and environmental damage.

[madatter]

I work in a fertilizer production plant(liquid ammonia and granular urea) and it seems we can't put a drop of ammonia water on the ground let alone dump our wastes in open pits and forget about them.
Seems we have to adhere to different standards than the big oil companies up north.
Don't even talk about CO2 emmissions...

My in laws used to live in the Athabasca area and use the river alot for jet boating.They cannot believe how low the river flows now,so low they can't go places they used to......these projects are sucking the river dry!

I'm a born and raised Albertan and do consider it the best place to live but what is going on up there and what we are actually getting out of it concerns me,the resources are supposed to belong to the people but the oil companies think it's there's to have.
While the average yearly wage has gone and is on average better than anywhere it is in the schooling,roads and hospitals where the people really can say that this boom has done squat.....yet!!
The oil companies rake in hundreds of millions of dollars in profits every year while there are alot of people just gettin by........most everyone thinks the people deserve more of the pie,everyone except the politicians who make the decisions.

[Sporty]

Good ole CBC, I shudder at how many easterners, Liberals and NDP'rs that are going to be screaming for a Carbon Tax (another NEP) after watching this documentary. I found it interesting that on the show they discussed about what the effects of the Tar Sands had on Canada and not Albertans. I can imagine all the calls to relative MP's in Ontario after this showed aired asking where their piece of the pie is. Eastern Canada doesn't give a rat's behind about Alberta except for what their cut of our resources they are or are not getting.

I don't think people understand Canada's Healthcare system, I say Canada's because our healthcare is a country wide problem it is not singled out to Alberta, every province has issues with our system. It is never going to get any better so unless Canadians are willing to embrace change don't expect it to get better and don't expect it to get cheaper.

We can't gauge our standard of living to places like Venezuela, as someone else said, if they are making $20 a day they can't going to be charging $1.14 for gas, prices are different everywhere depending on the standard of living, I personally like the standard that most Albertans are living.

As a US state, Alaskans pay more taxes than we do in Canada so the government is able to return to them some of their royalties where as in Canada our money needs to go to help the many social programs we have here that the US doesn't have, we pay lower taxes but we don't get any royalties either.

Next election we can always vote out the PC's and end up with the Liberals that would be more than happy to ship more of our money back east, come up with some more social programs that absolve people from being responsible for themselves but it is naive to think the grass is greener on the other side.


Moral of the story, Don't trust the CBC!

[sullijr]

We can blame some of our fuel cost on NAFTA . . . "we cannot charge the U.S. more than we pay in Canada for that energy." There is no free trade agreement between the countries listed above and the USA if there was they probably would have to pay a much higher price for fuel.

If that's the case why is gas so much cheaper in the the US $2.88 for gas .Diesel in Whitecourt was 123.9 per liter on Thurs.Gas per US gallon is $4.23 here and $4.00 in Honolulu.
Free Trade ha US blocked Canadian cattle from crossing the border Texas to Mexico what the heck does that mean?

[Donny Bear]

If that's the case why is gas so much cheaper in the the US $2.88 for gas .Diesel in Whitecourt was 123.9 per liter on Thurs.Gas per US gallon is $4.23 here and $4.00 in Honolulu.
Free Trade ha US blocked Canadian cattle from crossing the border Texas to Mexico what the heck does that mean?

TAX TAX TAX that is why some States are over the 4.00 mark for 3.8 Liters and others only over 3.00 but we are taxed much higher so we pay more to sustain more social programs and thats why Brit's are higher yet more tax than us!

[Walleyes]

Well taking the C.B.C as gospel shows the mind strenght of some.... Funny if it would have been David Sazuki on there talking about the negative efects hunting has on our game populations everyone would have been having a stroke but since its something most have little or no knowladge of it must be the truth..


If the grass is greener on the other side of the fence then go to the other side plain and simple..

[KyleM]

Sporty, Im born and raise in Southern Ontario.....same with the rest of my family. We live in a rural town of 15 000.

I can assure you that nobody gives a damn about whats happening out here, just like you guys could care less about their troubles with exports due to the US dollar falling.

Theres one reason Liberals are in power in Ontario, Toronto.

[Canuck44]

which begs the question " where are our glistening skyscrapers, .

Last time I drove through down town Calgary, yesterday, I counted 18 different sites with tower cranes on one drive through downtown. I am sure I didn't see all of them. Don't worry, they are coming.

The health care thing is a **** off, Airdrie has 30,000 people and no 24hr health care, and don't believe its free, we pay way to much in taxes for health care and then an extra $80 bucks a month.

Then again I don't know of a better way, if you think Kuwait, Iraq, Iran and other oil producing countries are great, move over there. See how you like living in a compound. I hear the moose hunting sucks too.

[catnthehat]

I agree with the thought that we are building too fast up here.
it would not bother me a bit if I was to learn that some of our development was on hold for a few years.
HOWEVER, the oil companies aren't going to hold back without legislation...
Cat

[Okotokian]

I have another thing to add to this report by CBC. They fail to mention that in actual fact Saskatchewan holds more oil under their turf than Alberta has under ours.


That's interesting, and yet theirs isn't developed. If you think back on the discussion here regarding the royalty review a while ago, we heard more than a couple seemingly-informed board members talking about how much easier it was to do business in Saskatchewan than Alberta. If that is the case, why are our tarsands developed and theirs aren't? Are we charging too much and making it too tough here, or are we giving companies free rein and giving it away? LOL Seems we are probably in the middle. As long as companies AND enviro groups are both complaining, we are probably just where we should be ;) If one or the other stops bitching, we will know we have a problem LOL

[Copidosoma]

Born in Alberta.

Think that oilsands development has been poorly planned/monitored and has gotten out of control.

Not afraid of taking a breather and thinking about things a bit.

[Map Maker]

I heard Alberta is the only debt-free juristiction in North America.
To me that is huge.
Try running a household with credit card debt as much as the income coming in, which most provinces do.

If the budget stays balanced every year, the grass will be green for a while.

[59whiskers]

The way CBC presented the workers point of view they made it seem as if the workers were forced by gun point to get on the bus and go work in Ft. Mac for a 100000 grand a year. We must have it pretty good here if there was a 40% voter turn out a week ago. There is a labor shortage in every occupation in this province. The CBC sure would like to see a government owned oil company again, does anyone here remember PetroCanada? CBC profiled Stat Oil from Norway a government owned oil company that bought the North American Oilsands lease. CBC hates free enterprise and people that invest in Western Canada. CBC bitches when we export our energy to the world economy to make Canada rich. Did CBC bitch about Quebec shipping all that electricity they generate down to the states? I think we need to get free hydro electricty from Quebec so we do not have to build nuclear power plants and burn gas to extract our oil and meet their dam Kyoto Protocol. I lived in Alberta all my life and have not forgot what the East did to the West with the NEP.

[rugatika]

TO all those wondering where their slice of the pie is...look to Ottawa, look to any branch of government or any govenment employee. Watch them for a day or a week. How many unnecessary trips do they go on, how often do they get together to "touch base" and stroke each others ego. Government is so top heavy with managers, political appointments, bureaucrats and so on that it is turning this country into a country of serfs. (Read "The Road to Serfdom" by Hayek)

To those that complain about the evil profits the oil companies are making I would suggest you invest your money in them and then just watch all the money roll in. In this country you are completely free to participate in the free market. Either through stock investment or HEY, why not start up your own oil company...if the money is so easy then go for it. I know a few guys that have their own little oil companies, and they make out all right, but they are not instant billionaires. When any one business becomes a source of easy money there will be a ton of people flooding into that arena to reap the rewards and if their is a ton of profit to be made you can bet your bottom dollar that the profit will slowly be eroded away by competition. Simple economics.

It always amazes me that people are so quick to whine about an oil company making a 7 or 10% profit, yet they have no problem with a government that easily wastes half the income it gets from hard working Canadians. The CBC alone rakes in over 1 billion dollars from us to put forth the garbage they do, while any other private station does a better job and MAKES money at it. The CBC as a business LOSES 1 billion of our tax dollars per year, while a company like CTV actually makes money doing the same thing (and without the lucrative hockey night in Canada I might add)

I moved to this province about 10 or 12 or crap I guess almost 15 years ago and have never looked back. I love this province and consider myself an Albertan through and through (almost...GO RIDERS!!)

Could this province be better? You bet. Lower taxes even further and we would have an influx of the best and brightest from across this continent.

[Win94]

The way CBC presented the workers point of view they made it seem as if the workers were forced by gun point to get on the bus and go work in Ft. Mac for a 100000 grand a year.

100K a year gets you no where up there. I sold my 950 sqft home with no garage i might add for 375,000.00 3 1/2 years ago in Fort Mac. 100K isn't even a decent down payment anymore. The same home is on the MLS now for 500,000.00 and still no garage. The Spruce Grove area gave us an 1800 sqft home with a double car garage for 430,000.00 And you wonder why people are living in camps up there and stationing there families in the satelite towns around Edmonton and Calgary.

[Okotokian]

And you wonder why people are living in camps up there and stationing there families in the satelite towns around Edmonton and Calgary.

There is always talk of a bullet train being built between Calgary and Edmonton. I've begun to think that perhaps it should be built between Edmonton and Fort Mac. Bet it would be used more.

[Win94]

There is always talk of a bullet train being built between Calgary and Edmonton. I've begun to think that perhaps it should be built between Edmonton and Fort Mac. Bet it would be used more

All that will do is encourage the broken family system currently happening because of this living out allowance and the very very high cost of living up there. Its a shame what is going on because of all this. Because of 32 years of living up there and experience in my trade, i could be working up there for 130K plus with living out allowance and commute back to my family every two weeks. I choose to be home at 5:00pm every day however and help raise my kids. What i see going on with people i grew up with and how they are handling their family situations is what is driving this society in to the ground.

[TheClash]

fort mac to lethbridge....why not??:)

[Win94]

fort mac to lethbridge....why not??

My father in law uses West Jet and he works at Syncrude. It can be done.

[honda450]

I like seeing Fort Mac in my rear view mirror.

[Win94]

32 years of life there for me and i like to remember it when it was decent. Can't bear to see the debacle it has become.:(

[TheClash]

My father in law uses West Jet and he works at Syncrude. It can be done.

ya i know a few that do the same.....would be interesting if the train ever came all the way down to lethbridge.

[Okotokian]

All that will do is encourage the broken family system currently happening because of this living out allowance and the very very high cost of living up there. .

I disagree. The distance is only 275 miles by road now. Bullet train would cover that in 90 minutes. Dad could be home many evenings.... as a comparison, I live outside Calgary and plan on an hour commute most days, 90 minutes if the weather is bad.

[Win94]

A bullet train??? Your on Glue. They can't even get a decent highway up there. A bullet train is a twenty year proposition.

[Okotokian]

A bullet train??? Your on Glue. They can't even get a decent highway up there. A bullet train is a twenty year proposition.

LOL never said I expected it next week. Just saying it seems more practical than a Edmonton Calgary run when you can grab a jet anytime you want.

[Win94]

I hear ya. It would be very ironic to finish a bullet train project ahead of the twinning of 63. For the resources that are up there contributing to the economy in such a way that they are, and to not have that highway even close to completed is one of the biggest running jokes of that area.

[Okotokian]

I hear ya. It would be very ironic to finish a bullet train project ahead of the twinning of 63. For the resources that are up there contributing to the economy in such a way that they are, and to not have that highway even close to completed is one of the biggest running jokes of that area.

Gotta agree. I've only been to the Fort a couple of times, but for a resource like that so vital to the province and the country, they should have a first-rate highway, affordable housing, etc. I don't live anywhere near it but I wouldn't be upset if the province declared that they were going to initiate a multi-billion dollar development plan.

[catnthehat]

You can watch the road bed heaving when some of those heavy vessels are being brought up the highway.
We are talking loads of such magnatude that they have 3 tractors pulling and 3 pushing at times!

Cat

[honda450]

Like when they bring those trucks in pieces, at the top of the hill.

[catnthehat]

And to think for the mostr part, both GCOS and syncrude were "stick built" in place!!
The biggestr rig we had building Syncrude was a 4000 Manitowac with a ringer, I think it was about 600 tons all up.
Nowadays they have MOBILES that big!!!:sick:
Cat

[Guy Smiley]

Gettin' into this a little late so, I won't say much, but, I'll chime in with a few points as much to put another vote in with those who are sceptical our leaders are leading us in the right direction and think they really have no plan:

- this boom is definitely not helping people born into poverty, in fact it is making their lives harder. Finding adequate housing is crazy, and for many of my students is a daily concern. For many of them they can't just go out and "get a job". Holding a job is a learned skill, not something we are magically born with. (perhaps they should simply invest in oil company stocks)

- who knows what effect the environmental issues are going to have 50 years from now. We might wish we hadn't used so much natural gas and water to extract the oil from the bitumen. I wonder how future generations will view us.

- I only watched the first 10 minutes of the program on CBC, but, I recall them saying that the total area the oil sands covers in the north are the size of Florida, not that they had dug up that much as some have claimed.

Cheers,

Ken

[catnthehat]

Here is the "monkey wrench in the gears" with finding jobs up here that is such a concern, for those not understanding it.
There are jobs, yes, but unless people are sharing housing , many of these jobs are not paying enough to find a place to live and buy the essentials of life.
As Guy Smiley and others pointed out, housing prices are crazy and rent is through the roof.
A first year teacher for example, cannot afford to move up here and live alone, let alone someone who doesn't have the skills to pull down a higher paying job.

We have hundreds of young people looking for work up here, and are filling as many calls that come in, but we also have many looking for work that want to join our Union.

I cannot justify taking their money for their initial memebership dues if I cannot put these people to work, that would be wrong.
At the moment Alberta has an shortage of journeyman trades people , and in addition, Ft. McMurray area has a housing shortage, so the two factors are compounding matters.
When I started in construction 36 years ago, it was not a problem to get work, we needed apprentices.
Now it seems, we need Journeyman because the age of the work force has turned the other way and we have many more young people than we did when I stared out.

I try very hard to place every young person that comes through our door, but there are days when it is a big trial , for sure....

Cat

[Win94]

Not to mention the fact that salaries have grown throughout the province as of late and its possible to do just as well outside of Fort Mcmurray. Before the big bucks could only be made in the Fort. Now the whole province is a more level playing field in terms of salaries.

[Okotokian]

One thing I don't understand about Fort McMurray housing.... in a normal capitalist system, when there is huge pent-up demand and a willingness and ability to pay more, more suppliers show up and fill the demand, bringing down prices. I would have thought builders and developers would be rushing to the Fort to hammer up apartments, condos, etc that they know they can be assured of renting out at premium prices. Is there something that is blocking that from happening?

[Win94]

Yes, the govt. is not releasing any land for development. That is the connundrum.

[Tredeb]

A first year teacher for example, cannot afford to move up here and live alone, let alone someone who doesn't have the skills to pull down a higher paying job.


Cat

I think a lot of the complaining arises from the fact that a lot of people these days think they should be able to have a house and live the high life with no sacrifice.

My mother and father rented a basement suite and had to have a roommate when my father was a first year teacher in the sixties. The big change is that people don't feel they should have to wait for anything.

The harsh reality is, that if you are only skilled enough to get minimum wage (which no one gets in Alberta), why should you be able to drive a new vehicle and own a house. As you gain experience and work ethic, your responsibilities and, in turn, your salary will increase.

There is no better place in the world for a young person to make a pile of money and gain a ton of work experience than Alberta right now. It may be tough for young families, but you have to ask yourself why you are in a young family. Young people need to find ways to make ends meet until they have increased their earning potential. If that means having a roommate, so be it. How many people on this thread have never had a roommate to help pay for the rent or mortgage.

[Okotokian]

I think a lot of the complaining arises from the fact that a lot of people these days think they should be able to have a house and live the high life with no sacrifice.

.

I don't think we are saying that a new teacher should be able to buy a house in the Fort right off the bat. Heck, they can't do it in Calgary or Edmonton, but they should be able to get a basic one bedroom apartment. I have no idea how any government worker lives up there, unless they have a spouse in the Oil industry.

[Win94]

Tredeb, i think you have rose coloured glasses and know not what you speak of. Like i said earlier, we sold our 950 sqft home in Fort Mac three years ago for 375K. Now that same home is 500K. Where is a young family with a child or two going to house a roomate in such a small home??? Do you even have a clue what kind of a down payment is required on 500K so your payments are under 2500 per month???

[gopherslayer]

I don't think we are saying that a new teacher should be able to buy a house in the Fort right off the bat. Heck, they can't do it in Calgary or Edmonton, but they should be able to get a basic one bedroom apartment. I have no idea how any government worker lives up there, unless they have a spouse in the Oil industry.

98% of government employees get this little kicker added on top of their wages :)

"Note: Fort McMurray Allowance of $1040.00 per month is provided. You may also be eligible for an attraction bonus."

If i would have taken the job offered to me I would have got an extra 5000 signing bonus to work there..I decided against it.

[Okotokian]

If i would have taken the job offered to me I would have got an extra 5000 signing bonus to work there..I decided against it.

Financially, that was probably a wise move. I'd want the $5000 extra every year.

[gopherslayer]

Financially, that was probably a wise move. I'd want the $5000 extra every year.

ummmmmmmmmmm


That's a relocation bonus on top of the $12,480 a year you get with the living allowance.

[Tredeb]

Tredeb, i think you have rose coloured glasses and know not what you speak of. Like i said earlier, we sold our 950 sqft home in Fort Mac three years ago for 375K. Now that same home is 500K. Where is a young family with a child or two going to house a roomate in such a small home??? Do you even have a clue what kind of a down payment is required on 500K so your payments are under 2500 per month???

No, I don't have rose color glasses, and FWIW, a $400K mortgage @5% w/ monthly payments will run you under $2500

My point is, why would a young family with no earning potential move to FT Mac and expect to have a house. The rest of Alberta is crying for workers. Everyone has to look at their own situation and decide where they need to be.

You can't take a low paying job in a high priced market and then complain about housing prices. Change your career, get a different job, move to a place that you can afford, or don't have kids until you are established.

I am sick and tired of hearing people complain about young families that can't make ends meet because they got married and had kids before either of them had any kind of stability in their life. Why should I, and others like me, have to pick up their tab or see the economy slow down for their benefit. I don't want house prices to go down, I want the price of my house to rise.

The point that many people fail to realize is that prices reflect what the market will bear. If the economy takes a downturn and jobs become scarce, wages will drop and the same people that can't afford a house now will still not be able to afford a house.

[catnthehat]

No, I don't have rose color glasses, and FWIW, a $400K mortgage @5% w/ monthly payments will run you under $2500

My point is, why would a young family with no earning potential move to FT Mac and expect to have a house. The rest of Alberta is crying for workers. Everyone has to look at their own situation and decide where they need to be.

You can't take a low paying job in a high priced market and then complain about housing prices. Change your career, get a different job, move to a place that you can afford, or don't have kids until you are established.

I am sick and tired of hearing people complain about young families that can't make ends meet because they got married and had kids before either of them had any kind of stability in their life. Why should I, and others like me, have to pick up their tab or see the economy slow down for their benefit. I don't want house prices to go down, I want the price of my house to rise.

The point that many people fail to realize is that prices reflect what the market will bear. If the economy takes a downturn and jobs become scarce, wages will drop and the same people that can't afford a house now will still not be able to afford a house.

The one problem is that there is very few places even to rent here, and first year teachers have a hard time making ends meet if they do find a place.

As far as buying a house right off the bat, it casn't even be considered up here for most people.
Not all people that live up here are making $50.000 plus, many are under the poverty line because of the greed that is involved whenever there is money flying around a town like this....
Cat

[Tredeb]

The one problem is that there is very few places even to rent here, and first year teachers have a hard time making ends meet if they do find a place.

As far as buying a house right off the bat, it casn't even be considered up here for most people.
Not all people that live up here are making $50.000 plus, many are under the poverty line because of the greed that is involved whenever there is money flying around a town like this....
Cat

I think I agree with you on most points. The price of housing is ridiculous up there, but I don't know of a single instance, where the government has gotten involved to slow industry, that has not resulted in disaster for that industry.

I have a soft spot for teachers ( my father and sister), but they fall into an odd category. They, along with nurses, get a degree and are then employed by the government. Most government jobs are lower pay than private industry with more benefits like good pensions or vacation. The problem comes when we see huge cost of living increases and the government does not keep pace. Other people with degrees have the choice to work for the government or not and they can weigh their options accordingly.

Contrary to some of my statements in my prior post, I am not opposed to teachers or nurses getting a cost of living bonus/adjustment/tax break as mentioned in other posts in this thread. They have important jobs within the community.

Sorry for taking this thread off topic

Trev

[Okotokian]

ummmmmmmmmmm


That's a relocation bonus on top of the $12,480 a year you get with the living allowance.

I know, I'd want it all combined, every year, and maybe doubled! LOL You couldn't get me to move there for an extra $12,480 a year. ;)

[lippy]

How much is a bungalow under 1,000 sq.ft. in northern Saskatchewan?...maybe it might be a good investment if the province ever becomes p.c.:) and opens up it's north country to exploitation ....ummmer....I mean exploration ;)!

[catnthehat]

How much is a bungalow under 1,000 sq.ft. in northern Saskatchewan?...maybe it might be a good investment if the province ever becomes p.c.:) and opens up it's north country to exploitation ....ummmer....I mean exploration ;)!
Saskatchewan is the next big thing!:D
Cat