Little help on gun decision for the future

[Phantom]

hey everyone,

Just thought id like to here some people input on a choice of gun for my little brother for next hunting season as I plan to buy him a used one hopefully when I get working. He is 14 and I will be taking him out hunting for his first deer. What caliber of rifle would well suite him? he is a fit stocky boy like I was when I was young and has shot a 12 gauge before and did quite well. Just thought id ask here because I know many of you guys have kids. I have always been the main figure in my little brothers life as my parents divorced when he was young and stuck with our mom which is not doing well at all and is only expected to be around for another year or two, I taught him everything from how to ride a bike to fly tying and fly fishing. So all he talks about now is going hunting with his big brother. I scrounged up some cash and got him into the C.O.R.E. program. so all input is appreciated and I will save all the info and hopefully I can buy a used rifle for him (which I would keep in my safe but only he uses it with me along his side and I would get something engraved in it so it means something) after I start work which is as soon as I find a job lol.

thanks in advance,

Phantom

[catnthehat]

Whatever it is, make sure it is reliable and simple for a first rifle.
As far as caliber goes, most of the calibers that will handle a mimimum of 140 grain bullets works well also for general big game.'The exception would be , of course, if he were only going to be hunting deer, then the 6mm suff could be considered.
However, generally speaking, a cartridge that will drive a 140 grain bullet is better for the stuff like bears and moose.
Examples would be 260 remington, 6.5X55, 7/08, 308win, etc.
I wouldn't go to a cartridge bigger than a 30/06 IMO, because the magnum style cartridges are simply too much to learn with.

I know there are people who say they are fine, but these are the cartridges most hunters start with because they can shoot them accuratly while learning at the range, and they kill well...
Cat

[Glockster]

I'll second the .260, 7mm-08 and 6.5x55, .308 as excellent starter rifles. The .243 is nice I just like a little more bullet weight. Pick up a Steven M200 in 7mm-08 and you're ready to go.

[Dick284]

What ever you do, dont buy him a rifle that does'nt fit him.
Get to a real gun smith and determine his length of pull, then go shopping with those numbers in hand.

Regardless of the caliber choice, stock fit is so often over looked. Then poor shooting form is sure to follow.
Make sure he is practiced and accurate, and those two things wont happen if the rifle is ill fitting.

[catnthehat]

What ever you do, dont buy him a rifle that does'nt fit him.
.\
I thought I put that in, but on checking , DIDN'T!!:sick:
Must be gettin' old and forgetful......
Cat

[seishooter]

I think for starting out you can't beat a 243. If your going for deer. and they are affordable.

[lazy ike]

What ever you do, dont buy him a rifle that does'nt fit him.
Get to a real gun smith and determine his length of pull, then go shopping with those numbers in hand.

Regardless of the caliber choice, stock fit is so often over looked. Then poor shooting form is sure to follow.
Make sure he is practiced and accurate, and those two things wont happen if the rifle is ill fitting.


Sizing a 14 years olds gun can be difficult when they are growing 1'/year.

[Dick284]

Sizing a 14 years olds gun can be difficult when they are growing 1'/year.

Well then one would be best served to assure a ready supply of replacement stocks are out there, or be prepared to add spacers and re grind the recoil pad.
This is'nt a case of slap it together and consider it good to go, we are starting a new hunter out, and the consequneces of poorly prepared and ill fitted equiptment raises all sorts of issues not needed to be discussed at this time.
Do the right thing, sure it might be a bit more expensive, but if the lad has a rifle that fits him properly, and as a result he shoots it more and becomes a better shot, then in turns becomes a better hunter, well, any arguments to the contrary are moot.

[willy]

I would stick with the 243,308 as ammo is cheaper readily available to practice more unless you reload then 7mm08 would be a good choice. If he handles the 12ga well a 270 would work also thats what i used as 1st rifle and still use it today.

[Pathfinder76]

Well then one would be best served to assure a ready supply of replacement stocks are out there, or be prepared to add spacers and re grind the recoil pad.
This is'nt a case of slap it together and consider it good to go, we are starting a new hunter out, and the consequneces of poorly prepared and ill fitted equiptment raises all sorts of issues not needed to be discussed at this time.
Do the right thing, sure it might be a bit more expensive, but if the lad has a rifle that fits him properly, and as a result he shoots it more and becomes a better shot, then in turns becomes a better hunter, well, any arguments to the contrary are moot.

I assume you didn't grow up shooting?

[lazy ike]

Well then one would be best served to assure a ready supply of replacement stocks are out there, or be prepared to add spacers and re grind the recoil pad.
This is'nt a case of slap it together and consider it good to go, we are starting a new hunter out, and the consequneces of poorly prepared and ill fitted equiptment raises all sorts of issues not needed to be discussed at this time.
Do the right thing, sure it might be a bit more expensive, but if the lad has a rifle that fits him properly, and as a result he shoots it more and becomes a better shot, then in turns becomes a better hunter, well, any arguments to the contrary are moot.

Sounds about right Dick. Also I highly recommed keeping the weight down. Most teenagers lack the strenght to hold 8lbs offhand for any lenght of time so a lighter gun and some form of rest is helpfull. A user friendly Optic is a must.

[Dick284]

I assume you didn't grow up shooting?

Never assume, you do a perfect job of making and A_S_S out of not me but you.

And perhaps many of you fellows may have had every opportunity to become better at an earlier age, just through a proper fitting rifle.

Arguments as to doing things on the cheap or half arsed are lost to me, I see no benifit in providing a rifle to a young shooter so they can become a poor shooter, and and get bad habits.

Decisions as to when and what to buy a up and commer, are not a venture to be done off the cuff, they require fore thought and research.
I'm simply providing some information often over looked, and more than often resulting in issues down the road.
But if my logic fails your abilities, I see no point in continuing this discussion.

[honda450]

Seems like this discussion comes up every week. Yeah they grow like weeds when they are that age, I put alot of thought into it when I bought my son a rifle caliber, model, make, budget etc. It is a endless conversation. Gotta put them huntin at that age they eat you out of house and home.

[catnthehat]

I assume you didn't grow up shooting?
FWIW I did grow up in a shooting family, a very prominant one at that.
My father was adament when it came to stock fit, and made spacers for us for our fixed stock rifles and shotguns, or added /subtracted thicker pads,while we grew.

He was of the poular opinion that if a rifle did not fit properly, trying to become an excellent shooter was a lost cause.
Stock fit and form are the first ingrediants towards the making of an expert shooter.
In hunting, the caliber must also be taken into consideration, but the rifle must fot properly.
Oldbadger is a prime example - he abhores the M70 winchester and cannot shoot even one in 270 worth crap, because they do not fit him properly until cut down.
Same with his Sako 338 Lapua magnum.
I could shoot it well and he could not until I cut 1 1/4" off the butt for him.
He then was able to shoot it accuratley at 1K.
me? the first shot blackened BOTH my eyes!!!:sick:
Yup, too short for me with that much recoil behind it!!:lol:
Cat

[Phantom]

wow lots of good info guys, really appreciate it, have copied and pasted it all and saved it.

glad to have you fellers here to ask,

[6tmile]

Phantom, 6tmile here, just to say I think the majority of rifle hunters here in alberta started with hand me downs from dads, uncles, and grand fathers, some of these were handed down from there fathers, etc caliber and length of pull was not an option, you used what you had, and learned how to use. When it comes down to it there probably was more game shot with 30-30's and milsurp 303's than the rest of the calibers combined, what game is he going to hunt ? I know a law abiding older fella that might be willing to sell a rifle very reasonable when the time comes. Take what you read off a lot of the internet with a grain of salt, nowadays everyone is an expert.

[catnthehat]

Phantom, 6tmile here, just to say I think the majority of rifle hunters here in alberta started with hand me downs from dads, uncles, and grand fathers, some of these were handed down from there fathers, etc caliber and length of pull was not an option, you used what you had, and learned how to use. When it comes down to it there probably was more game shot with 30-30's and milsurp 303's than the rest of the calibers combined, what game is he going to hunt ? I know a law abiding older fella that might be willing to sell a rifle very reasonable when the time comes. Take what you read off a lot of the internet with a grain of salt, nowadays everyone is an expert.
If the Enfield is a No.4 and reasonable accurate it is actually a very good choice.
A good caliber, and the different lengths of butt stocks are readily available through the internet or Milarm.

Cat

[Phantom]

lol, hes going to be going for his first deer, ya I hear where your comeing from lol:D

[honda450]

Yeah learned on a old milsurp myself P17. Gotta love those steel butt plates.

[lazy ike]

Phantom, 6tmile here, just to say I think the majority of rifle hunters here in alberta started with hand me downs from dads, uncles, and grand fathers, some of these were handed down from there fathers, etc caliber and length of pull was not an option, you used what you had, and learned how to use. When it comes down to it there probably was more game shot with 30-30's and milsurp 303's than the rest of the calibers combined, what game is he going to hunt ? I know a law abiding older fella that might be willing to sell a rifle very reasonable when the time comes. Take what you read off a lot of the internet with a grain of salt, nowadays everyone is an expert.

That's very true and in my case goes a long way to explaining my fundamental hatred of Enfeilds.

[mud slug]

. Take what you read off a lot of the internet with a grain of salt, nowadays everyone is an expert.

i don't know about you but on this site i feel that dick and cat along with one or two more would be the experts and would trust then at there word.

[catnthehat]

. Take what you read off a lot of the internet with a grain of salt, nowadays everyone is an expert.

I don't know about you but on this site I feel that dick and cat along with one or two more would be the experts and would trust then at there word.
Thank you for the show of support, but it is my father that deserves all the credit here.
Between he nad my older brother ( another world class coach) they taught me 99% of what I know, and ALL that I practice.
here's a link to one of the articles refferenced to my father.
He developed all the manuals for the SFC, and I still have some of his original material
http://www.tipsforshooting.com/target/rifle/Kneeling%20Rifle.php
Cat

[honda450]

Gotta agree with you there mudslug. Gotta keep them on theie toes though.:lol:

[Pathfinder76]

I should have added a smiley to the original post, but point being Dick, that many many many youngsters grow up shooting rifles that are not perfectly suited to their stature. Me included. It in no way affected my ability as a marksman. Lets not get carried away tripping over mouse turds here.

Buy a used BDL chambered for the 270. Cut the thing to fit, and when he outgrows it in a couple of years look for a take off stock someone has collecting dust in their closet to replace it with. Better yet, let the kid save his money for a McMillan to replace it with down the road.

Put atop it a quality used pre FX 6X36 Leupold in quality mounts, bed and seal the stock, and he can hunt with it till he's 80.

[Dick284]

Yes a smiley would have made your intent know to us.;)
Your 700 Rem idea is spot on to my line of thinking, I'd just go SPS youth in a long action (270) then every gunsmith in the land has drums of take off stocks, one could get for a song so lenghtining it out to the lads growth is a piece of cake.

I've seen enough of the "I'm not so bad" crowd to know, how bad not so bad can be, sorry for the preechyness. Interact with as many grown up shooters as I have, and try to improve on age old bad habits, and you'd know starting them on the right foot at the begining pays dividends in the long run.

[Pathfinder76]

Absolutely.

[6tmile]

I was adding my 2 cents worth to help out another young shooter, and with saying about" everyone being an expert" WAS AT NO WAY A HIT AT DICK284 OR CAT. Ther is a lot of crap on the net about shooting and hunting, :) I did not realize that some of you are that sensitive, from now on when I post I will use smileys so that no one will get there feelings hurt:) :) :) :)

[Dick284]

I was adding my 2 cents worth to help out another young shooter, and with saying about" everyone being an expert" WAS AT NO WAY A HIT AT DICK284 OR CAT. Ther is a lot of crap on the net about shooting and hunting, :) I did not realize that some of you are that sensitive, from now on when I post I will use smileys so that no one will get there feelings hurt:) :) :) :)

I think the only feller with hurt feelings was some one other than Cat and I.;) :wave:

If you read my last to this reply you'll see the founding for my statements. Just because so many of us may have started with hand me downs does'nt make it the correct course of action to move forward from.

Traditions die, as this one should, for some very good reasons.

[catnthehat]

[QUOTE=6tmile;123954]I was adding my 2 cents worth to help out another young shooter, and with saying about" everyone being an expert" WAS AT NO WAY A HIT AT DICK284 OR CAT. Ther is a lot of crap on the net about shooting and hunting, :) I did not realize that some of you are that sensitive, from now on when I post I will use smileys so that no one will get there feelings hurt:) :) :) :)[/QUOTE
There was no offense taken by your post at all 6tmile, what you said was in fact very true.
I only answered your post with the link to show that I have been properly schooled in both the psychology and technology of coaching but I maybe should have sent you a PM instead.

BTW, anybody who was shooting their postal match today because they pushed the deadline, be thankful you didn't have to do it up here !!:D
snow and winds gusting to about 25K with -20c temps do not make for good targets, especially when one leaves his fur hat at home!!:confused:
Cat

[honda450]

Hey Cat some people were comparing Florida to Fort Mac. I thought it was the weather?:lol:

[lazy ike]

Now before everyone starts looking for a group hug, go get your Bro a gun, take him shooting alot and posts pics this fall.

[catnthehat]

Hey Cat some people were comparing Florida to Fort Mac. I thought it was the weather?:lol:
Well, if Florida has the same weather as us, they've tanked their orange crop for this year!!:D
Cat

[honda450]

Wonder whats worth more the orange crop or oil crop?:evilgrin:

[Jims71duster]

If he can handle the punch from a 12 ga. Then I would go for the 3006,It can be grained up and down for almost all game and will save him having to buy another rifle in a few years because he is young and money will be a concern. Before everone jumps on me about that ole "30 30 has downed more animals in this country than all the calibers combined " crap. They are only a good back up gun anymore. A 243 is an ok deer or antilope caliber but not as good as a 270. Lots of people have shot and killed moose or elk with a 270, but why would you only fling a 150 grain at it when you could use a 30-06 and fling a 180 at it. The 3006 can be grained to cover the all grains from about 50 grains up to around 220grains. As for the little extra weight of the gun,The young lad should use a bit heavier gun. He will be doing a lot of target shooting and a bit heavier gun will kick less than a lighter gun. At worst, a light gun in a smaller caliber should kick about the same as larger caliber in a heavier gun. A stout 14 year old should not have much of a problem packing a little heavier gun in the field, most of them are in better shape than most of us older guys anyway. Just thought I would touch on a few things that were not in earlier posts

[Phantom]

wow, allot of options, well I have been looking at guns all over the net, and when the time comes in the fall I will take him out and fit him up with a rifle and if im in the area of one of you guys maybe one of you could possibly tag along and give a hand.:cool:

[honda450]

I fling 120's at moose.:evilgrin:

[Okotokian]

[QUOTE=Dick284;123829]What ever you do, dont buy him a rifle that does'nt fit him.
Get to a real gun smith and determine his length of pull, then go shopping with those numbers in hand.
QUOTE]

So is there a way of determining that without having to go to a gunsmith? I mean, is there a standard measurement that could be done, length from shoulder joint to fingertip or something like that? Any competent ski tech can tell you how long your skis should be given your weight, height, and skiing ability. There was a time when I used to be able to figure that out myself. Is determining your optimum length of pull that technical that it requires one of these rare gunsmiths?

[honda450]

Gotta remember they grow like weeds 12-16 years old. Whats good this year ain't next year. So unless you have infinite bank accounts think twice. I am glad I never bought my son a youth model, man he's 6 feet now and 16 years old and can shoot any rifle I have little sucker is a shade taller than me.

[nekred]

I see the same ideas in archery....and rifles

People discussing pro's and con's of bows, broadheads, arrows, strings, in a very knowledgable manner!... Yet when you see them shoot their draw legth is way out, they are trying to pull to much weight, their form is atrocious and have a hard time grouping at 20 yards.... then the same guy will come on and post how they make 2" groups at 70 yards with their bow consistently..... Ok I am exaggerating a bit to make a point.....

My suggestion is if he is 12 and looking to hunt and shoot, make an appointment with someone who can shoot and can teach shootin and take him and go to the seminar together. In the end he will make an informed decision, you can spend some time together and both learn a lot and it will be far more useful than getting a $150 deal that may or may not work!....

In archery and in rifles it is not the tool that launches the arrow or the bullet that matters but the tool using the tool....... If you do not know any more about shooting than the tool then you are just another tool!.....

become a rifleman or an archer!.....Don't be a tool!...

But what is realy funny is when a tool (shooting machine) uses a rifle or a bow there are often more accurate than any of us can be!....

Dick How many people here attended your shooting seminar!.... I would love to have been there just with time constraints it was hard to.

I have been shooting a bow for 16+ years... i started awesome because I was a tool... as timeprogressed the mental problems started because of improper technique and training. I started being coached 1-1/2 years ago! The improvement I have made is phenomenal.... I now know I can pick up any bow in my draw length and shoot it well.

You can either buy your brother a rifle that may or may not work....or provide him with an opportunity to enjoy a lifelong passion!....

[Okotokian]

Gotta remember they grow like weeds 12-16 years old. Whats good this year ain't next year. So unless you have infinite bank accounts think twice. I am glad I never bought my son a youth model, man he's 6 feet now and 16 years old and can shoot any rifle I have little sucker is a shade taller than me.

True they do grow fast, but it makes sense to me to treat it the same way you would a bicycle or skiis. With either of those, you don't try to buy a model tht will last him 20 years, you buy what fits him now, and realize you will have to sell it and buy a larger size in a few years. I can't think you will lose THAT MUCH off the price you paid if you buy a popular reasonably priced youth model and then sell it in three years. Same with caliber. You don't have to buy him something that will handle elk, moose and bear right now. You could phase those in later with his next gun. Just a thought.

[honda450]

True enough Okie but the rifle I bought him will last 20 years or a lifetime for that matter. Remington 700 SPS stainless in 708 with a Burris Fullfield2 3-9. I will take it and he can buy his own. He's already talkin 300 Weatherby. Kids? He's goin to put in for LEH this year for sheep. I will help but don't know if I can keep up to him. He will go on the same trails that I walked many time with my grandfather, years ago.

[Okotokian]

[QUOTE=honda450;124616]True enough Okie but the rifle I bought him will last 20 years or a lifetime for that matter. Remington 700 SPS stainless in 708 with a Burris Fullfield2 3-9. QUOTE]

708? wow, he's some tough kid! Never heard of that caliber before though :lol: ;)

[honda450]

Yeah rare caliber. Not too many southener's have heard of em.:evilgrin:

[Okotokian]

Yeah rare caliber. Not too many southener's have heard of em.:evilgrin:

Bet it would work great on Wooly Mammoth :lol: You still got a few of those up there, right?

[honda450]

You got that right, seen one out of my igloo window, sled dogs got in the way for a decent shot though.

[Dick284]

[QUOTE=Dick284;123829]What ever you do, dont buy him a rifle that does'nt fit him.
Get to a real gun smith and determine his length of pull, then go shopping with those numbers in hand.
QUOTE]

So is there a way of determining that without having to go to a gunsmith? I mean, is there a standard measurement that could be done, length from shoulder joint to fingertip or something like that? Any competent ski tech can tell you how long your skis should be given your weight, height, and skiing ability. There was a time when I used to be able to figure that out myself. Is determining your optimum length of pull that technical that it requires one of these rare gunsmiths?

There are many varibles in stock fit, arm length being one, neck height, hand size and even meatyness in the shoulder, this makes a patt answer too difficult to come up with.
Most smith's will charge nothing to size an up and commer.

[willy11]

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