Jet boat trolling techniques

[fish_fan]

I've been cruising up and down the river all month and haven't had any luck. I use a 10 lb anchor to keep my presentation down low and keep her as slow as possible to maintain control. About 25 mph on the gps. I use the new suffix power pro braid winch line 2000lb. Just wind her in if I get a snag.


Has anyone tried dragging nets with their jet. How far back would you have to place them.



I'm just kidding. I would never do that. He'll I dont even own a jet boat.

[FishingFrenzy]

Wait what.....................

[TROLLER]

This would be a joke right?

[steelhead]

Its just Fish Fan having a hissy girly fit because he hates jet boats.


Thinks the rivers are all his or sumpthin.


Only child I bet.


Not interested in listening to reason.


Probably owns a float tube.


One day he may learn to share, but until then, he will be a very lonely person.


Its ok fish fan, there there. Now take your medicine like a big boy. It will make things better.




STEELHEAD

[Dale S]

Have you sobered up yet.

[fish_fan]

Its just Fish Fan having a hissy girly fit because he hates jet boats.


Thinks the rivers are all his or sumpthin.


Only child I bet.


Not interested in listening to reason.


Probably owns a float tube.


One day he may learn to share, but until then, he will be a very lonely person.


Its ok fish fan, there there. Now take your medicine like a big boy. It will make things better.




STEELHEAD

there's alot of big rivers where a j-boat belongs. but j-boats make as much sense in fly fishing areas as taking a float tube down a set of rapids. just cause you can doesnt mean you should. your rant made me laugh. :sHa_shakeshout:

[duffy4]

From that other jet boat thread...If you slow down in a jetboat the boat rides lower in the water. The lower it rides in the water the bigger the wake.Its best to keep it on plain.

So when trolling from a jet boat you have to be going about 50 MPH at least.

Which is good because there is less chance of being hit with a brick thrown by those who are sick and tired of sharing the river with what some people are calling recreation in nature.

[steelhead]

My post was an observation. It wasnt meant for you to respond to.



But, since you did.



Jet boats dont belong in fly fishing areas eh?

Thats what your going with?


Define fly fishing areas?


Like, the Bow? Where hardware chuckers outnumber the fly anglers 2-1?

And who in this province has labeled it a fly fishing only river? FFC?




You have to share sir, its tough I know, but, its the way it has to be. Its Federal law and a navigable water and has been for centuries. When I jet, I have to share with other boaters, tubers, dog stick throwers, swimmers, hunters, other anglers, and wildlife. And I dont mind. When I pull out the drift boats, I have to share with other boaters, tubers, dog stick throwers, swimmers, hunters, other anglers, and wildlife. And I still dont mind! When I go canoeing or rafting, I have to share with other boaters, tubers, dog stick throwers, swimmers, hunters, other anglers, and wildlife.

Not only do i have to share, so does a couple million others in this province. You boys arent into sharing? Like everyone else? I feel pity for you all.

Part of my enjoyment of the outdoors is watching others enjoy the outdoors. Even if its a jet buzzing by me as i float in my drift boats. I give them room, its the law and courteous. We wave, we smile, i go on enjoying my day.


Thats reasonable, isnt it?

A million people in the area and i'm sure they have other waterborn interests apart from fly fishing in waders on the Bow river.


So, Fish_Fan, Niel, Duffy, its time to share boys!


So boys, lets try taking that medicine again. I know it tastes bad, but it will help and it does start to taste better as you accept its awfull taste.


Maybee we should petition that anglers in waders in the Bow and the Red Deer MUST wear orange warning vests while wading and have anchor lights for thier night times spent on the river. If we cant see you on navigable waters, dont blame us if we come somewhat close trying to avoid you.



STEELHEAD

[Paul C]

From that other jet boat thread...If you slow down in a jetboat the boat rides lower in the water. The lower it rides in the water the bigger the wake.Its best to keep it on plain.

So when trolling from a jet boat you have to be going about 50 MPH at least.

Which is good because there is less chance of being hit with a brick thrown by those who are sick and tired of sharing the river with what some people are calling recreation in nature.:sHa_sarcasticlol:
That well said...lol...

[steelhead]

I should add, when I go jet boating, I never see anyone on the river. I havent for 6 years.


Ya know guys, there are places where you wont see jet boats on rivers. Drive a little farther, find another peacefull honey hole. Lots out there. I have found quite a few. I bet you boys could to.


Not interested? Well then quit complaining. Your doing all this to yourselves.


STEELHEAD


WOW, Duffy. Why do you even go fishing? Doesnt sound like you enjoy it very much!

[avb3]

From that other jet boat thread...If you slow down in a jetboat the boat rides lower in the water. The lower it rides in the water the bigger the wake.Its best to keep it on plain.

So when trolling from a jet boat you have to be going about 50 MPH at least.

Which is good because there is less chance of being hit with a brick thrown by those who are sick and tired of sharing the river with what some people are calling recreation in nature.

Hey Duffy, they lied, you DO have a sense of humor. Truly funny!!!

[bowness]

My post was an observation. It wasnt meant for you to respond to.



But, since you did.



Jet boats dont belong in fly fishing areas eh?

Thats what your going with?


Define fly fishing areas?


Like, the Bow? Where hardware chuckers outnumber the fly anglers 2-1?

And who in this province has labeled it a fly fishing only river? FFC?




You have to share sir, its tough I know, but, its the way it has to be. Its Federal law and a navigable water and has been for centuries. When I jet, I have to share with other boaters, tubers, dog stick throwers, swimmers, hunters, other anglers, and wildlife. And I dont mind. When I pull out the drift boats, I have to share with other boaters, tubers, dog stick throwers, swimmers, hunters, other anglers, and wildlife. And I still dont mind! When I go canoeing or rafting, I have to share with other boaters, tubers, dog stick throwers, swimmers, hunters, other anglers, and wildlife.

Not only do i have to share, so does a couple million others in this province. You boys arent into sharing? Like everyone else? I feel pity for you all.

Part of my enjoyment of the outdoors is watching others enjoy the outdoors. Even if its a jet buzzing by me as i float in my drift boats. I give them room, its the law and courteous. We wave, we smile, i go on enjoying my day.


Thats reasonable, isnt it?

A million people in the area and i'm sure they have other waterborn interests apart from fly fishing in waders on the Bow river.


So, Fish_Fan, Niel, Duffy, its time to share boys!


So boys, lets try taking that medicine again. I know it tastes bad, but it will help and it does start to taste better as you accept its awfull taste.


Maybee we should petition that anglers in waders in the Bow and the Red Deer MUST wear orange warning vests while wading and have anchor lights for thier night times spent on the river. If we cant see you on navigable waters, dont blame us if we come somewhat close trying to avoid you.



STEELHEAD

Alberta rivers should be shared and not according to one persons idea of "natural recreation". Who has the right to define what an individual considers to be "natural recreation". Fishing nude in an orange vest with christmas lights on your head makes a great image to me of natural recreation. Duffy: we need a photo of your bucket

Maybe there should be some discussion between the recreational users on that section of the Bow that seems so contentious and confrontational. I myself have not driven a jetboat often on that stretch but have felt the inhospitable stares of drift boaters:rolleye2:when driving by (just barely on step planing of course).

Is it not possible to come up with some type of restriction such as jet boats can be run after 12 noon? Then you could drift down in the jetboat, drift boat or float tube with orange vest and lights on head until noon. This may appease those who would like the quiet morning fish to focus on and still give jetboaters access to the waters for the entire day (just not power in the morning)

Keep this in context, this section is under very heavy pressure and something will need to change. The government may come up with a lottery system (they seem to like those) where you apply for "jetboat days" or "driftboat days" and that limits access in a somewhat fair way (yes it would become a money grab...)

Just trying to think outside the box. I do not work as a guide or for the government.

As recreational fishermen we should try to avoid issues that are divisive as it has a negative impact on our common desire to have a sustainable, and enjoyable outdoor experience for ourselves and our offspring. Fly fisher vrs gear chuckers, jetboaters vrs drifters, drifters/float tube vrs shore fishers. Do we really want to jeopardize our enjoyment by having feeling of confrontation and anger when we see other users because they use the resource somewhat differently than we do?

That would really detract from the love I have for fishing. Might as well stay at work and confront my peers!:argue2:

PS Just joking around Duffy, we all need to try to figure something out that works.

PSS no photos PLEASE! :scared0018:

[bowness]

My post was an observation. It wasnt meant for you to respond to.



But, since you did.



Jet boats dont belong in fly fishing areas eh?

Thats what your going with?


Define fly fishing areas?


Like, the Bow? Where hardware chuckers outnumber the fly anglers 2-1?

And who in this province has labeled it a fly fishing only river? FFC?




You have to share sir, its tough I know, but, its the way it has to be. Its Federal law and a navigable water and has been for centuries. When I jet, I have to share with other boaters, tubers, dog stick throwers, swimmers, hunters, other anglers, and wildlife. And I dont mind. When I pull out the drift boats, I have to share with other boaters, tubers, dog stick throwers, swimmers, hunters, other anglers, and wildlife. And I still dont mind! When I go canoeing or rafting, I have to share with other boaters, tubers, dog stick throwers, swimmers, hunters, other anglers, and wildlife.

Not only do i have to share, so does a couple million others in this province. You boys arent into sharing? Like everyone else? I feel pity for you all.

Part of my enjoyment of the outdoors is watching others enjoy the outdoors. Even if its a jet buzzing by me as i float in my drift boats. I give them room, its the law and courteous. We wave, we smile, i go on enjoying my day.


Thats reasonable, isnt it?

A million people in the area and i'm sure they have other waterborn interests apart from fly fishing in waders on the Bow river.


So, Fish_Fan, Niel, Duffy, its time to share boys!


So boys, lets try taking that medicine again. I know it tastes bad, but it will help and it does start to taste better as you accept its awfull taste.


Maybee we should petition that anglers in waders in the Bow and the Red Deer MUST wear orange warning vests while wading and have anchor lights for thier night times spent on the river. If we cant see you on navigable waters, dont blame us if we come somewhat close trying to avoid you.



STEELHEAD

Alberta rivers should be shared and not according to one persons idea of "natural recreation". Who has the right to define what an individual considers to be "natural recreation". Fishing nude in an orange vest with christmas lights on your head makes a great image to me of natural recreation. Duffy: we need a photo of your bucket

Maybe there should be some discussion between the recreational users on that section of the Bow that seems so contentious and confrontational. I myself have not driven a jetboat often on that stretch but have felt the inhospitable stares of drift boaters:rolleye2:when driving by (just barely on step planing of course).

Is it not possible to come up with some type of restriction such as jet boats can be run after 12 noon? Then you could drift down in the jetboat, drift boat or float tube with orange vest and lights on head until noon. This may appease those who would like the quiet morning fish to focus on and still give jetboaters access to the waters for the entire day (just not power in the morning)

Keep this in context, this section is under very heavy pressure and something will need to change. The government may come up with a lottery system (they seem to like those) where you apply for "jetboat days" or "driftboat days" and that limits access in a somewhat fair way (yes it would become a money grab...)

Just trying to think outside the box. I do not work as a guide or for the government.

As recreational fishermen we should try to avoid issues that are divisive as it has a negative impact on our common desire to have a sustainable, and enjoyable outdoor experience for ourselves and our offspring. Fly fisher vrs gear chuckers, jetboaters vrs drifters, drifters/float tube vrs shore fishers. Do we really want to jeopardize our enjoyment by having feeling of confrontation and anger when we see other users because they use the resource somewhat differently than we do?

That would really detract from the love I have for fishing. Might as well stay at work and confront my peers!:argue2:

PS Just joking around Duffy, we all need to try to figure something out that works.

PSS no photos PLEASE! :scared0018:

[Dale S]

:sHa_sarcasticlol:
That well said...lol...

Breaking the law is well said. Give your head a shack.I'm glad I don't have to deal with you trout fishermen.

[Dale S]

From that other jet boat thread...If you slow down in a jetboat the boat rides lower in the water. The lower it rides in the water the bigger the wake.Its best to keep it on plain.

So when trolling from a jet boat you have to be going about 50 MPH at least.

Which is good because there is less chance of being hit with a brick thrown by those who are sick and tired of sharing the river with what some people are calling recreation in nature.

My boat plains at 20 mph. Somebody throws a brick at my boat they will get a lickin.It would be like taking the first swing so I wouldent get charge you would.

[steelhead]

Its ok Dago,


When men threaten violence on others it is usually because they know they have lost and have no other recourse than to try to FORCE people to thier line of thinking. Its a defence mechanisim. A natural reaction in humans.

But its ok, They are ruining it for themselves. Now they want to ruin it for others because they cant share.


" Do unto others as you would have done to you."


Since you boys cant share and find happiness in yourselves and others, you will find the above statement to be very very true in the future.


It may be and probably is happening right now. I have heard all your complaints. It has already started. Great way to enjoy nature, time to take up birdwatching. Allthough others may not do it right by you.



Enjoy recreating in nature with 2.5 million others. With your attitiudes you will be the target for brick throwers soon.




Why do people go fishing just to hate others?

Why do you go fishing if you know your not going to like it?




STEELHEAD

[buckbrushoutdoors]

Oh Duffy I would love the chance to meet you on a river. I would even give the brick back to you, you would need all the help you could get.

[duffy4]

Actually I never threatened to throw bricks at anybody. If you read my post you may or may not realize that.





Forestry has a "definition" of "legitimate recreation on crown lands."

It goes something like this: Legitimate recreation on crown lands 1. does not negatively effect the environment (there may be a degree of effect to this) and 2. does not have a negative effect on other crown land users.


The negative effects of canoeing, fishing, floating in rafts or tubes etc. are very small.

The negative effects of jet boating are much bigger. The more jet boats on a river the greater those neg. effects.

There comes a point that "sharing the river" or tolerating the jet boat traffic
is no longer acceptable for many.

I reckon there will be a change in Federal boating regulations to address this. the sooner the better.

[steelhead]

The longer you wait, the worse its going to taste.




Your example uses "land"


We are all talking federal waterways here, not alberta forest lands.


Nothing there applies to our recreational activities in a jet boat.

You need a new point that will help your cause.



If you can find me evidence that jetboats are more harmfull than the spring floods and mountain runoff, I will listen. Especially when the runoff and melts are during peak trout spawning times and covering the redds with fine choking silt. Theres nothing on this planet more powerfull than water, and in a river situation, erosion is its only footprint. To say jets cause premature erosion in a heavy gravel river in or near the foothills, is ridiculous.


And , as you dig, you will find little to no negative affects from jet boats except noise. And tubers make more noise when they float through your run.


Care to share these negative effects you have found?

I bet we can pick them apart pretty good with common sense, logic and eveidence.

Like you, I have been looking for these negative effects also, just so I can keep up with you. I'm having trouble, so you must be floundering.


Changes to federal boating laws? thats a good one.

If you change them here, there will be backlash from the rest of canada to stop these changes that affect them also. Didnt think of that huh? What will the shipping be like on the st lawrence and fraser rivers if you can only use drift boats? I have to" LOL ", that one.

You have to ask ALL OF CANADA to change our federal boating laws and our federal waterway laws, not just Albertans.

Thats alot of signatures to fetch. There is a chance someone will throw a brick at you. Be prepared.




The more you post, the more you show YOUR unwillingness to share.

The more you post, the more ammo you give us to shoot down your ideals of how YOU think it should be.


Keep feeding us boys. It gives us a chance to "do unto you" as you see fit to do unto us.



STEELHEAD

[duffy4]

"I bet we can pick them apart pretty good with common sense, logic and eveidence.

And that shows me that you are really not interested in hearing any logical discussion on the issue. You have your arms folded across your chest and your feet firmly planted. Your view is the only view.

What will the shipping be like on the st lawrence and fraser rivers if you can only use drift boats? I have to" LOL ", that one.

Where did you dream this up? Kind of makes me LOL at your view of what some new boating regulations should involve.

Like many you do not seem to understand what goes on in a stream with regard to water levels, velocity and the natural movement of silt.
As opposed to the unnatural movement of silt do to man's activities.

So have a nice day!:)

[duffy4]

Here is a regulation in the "Pleasure Boating" section of the regulations.

Province-wide shore-line speed restrictions

Provinces from Ontario, westward to and including British Columbia (inland waters only in British Columbia) have adopted province-wide restrictions limiting speed to 10 km/h within 30 m (98’ 5”) from shore on all waters within their boundaries, except for:
Waterskiing, where the boat follows a trajectory perpendicular to the shore
In rivers less than 100 m (328’ 1”) in width, or canals or buoyed channels
In waters where another speed is prescribed under a schedule to the regulations
This limit is not posted.

An amendment to change the blue part would be good. And some serious enforcement.

[steelhead]

In a debate, its my part to take an opposing view.

And i am interested in a logical discussion or I would not be replying. But theres no logic coming from your corner. Your points are derived from anger and resentment and now the hoplessness that you are destined to see nothing change. Not the way i would have gone about things, but it is something to expect from those who dont share and have one sided views.

And you still havent offered us any big negatives yet. Still floundering?

I have researched and have operated jets. I know rivers and what they do very well. I know jets very well also and see thier small and minor effects on rivers. My feet arent firmly planted and arms not crossed. I also operate drift boats, walk and wade, pontoons.

I have mentioned in a previous post that when in my drift boat, I let jets pass with space and a nice wave. What do you do when a jet passes? I bet its not a wave of hello. But i bet they waved at you!

I have my feet planted on both sides. And I am good with that. I have to stick up for my driftboats also, but i am not going to take your example on how to do it. I wave and carry on. It works better than negativity towards a whole sector of recreational activities.


"As opposed to the unnatural movement of silt do to man's activities."


I noticed, with all my years of jetting and all my years of wading, I find more silt kicked up by feet than jet wash.

And how do you silt up rock, gravel and sand, siltless sections of upper stretches of rivers? On the Wapiti at GP, its a jet choked river. Right down to the city its blue and clear for the most part. Fishing along its banks as a 30 boat poker run is going on and the river never darkens or silts its fine blue hue. But the fishing picks up.

My jet wash or wake never touches bottom and where it hits the shore, it makes barely a ripple.

You see, the velocity of a river has an effect on a full plane jet boat. It movement and velocity slows and dissipates wake. Ever throw a rock in a river? In a lake, the ripples travel to infinity. In a fast river like foothills streams and the bow, you wont see ripple one anywhere near where the rock got thrown in and seconds after no wake to speak of. I now see it is you that doesnt know much about rivers or you would have though about that before posting dribble and fear causing points.


Wow, i do know a bit about velocity and natural movement. I learned it while researching points to counter your unsubstantiated points. But most of all i learned in school and many years on rivers accross this country on canoes and jets, both fly angling and spin fishing.


learn by doing teach from experience


If you have no experience with jets, how can you effectively teach us about them?


And no, you have a nice day. It doesnt sound like you have too many of them.




STEELHEAD

[steelhead]

They also added that exemption just for jet and powerboats in mind.

They thought hard about that exemption. And for good reason.

4 provinces combined came up with those rules. They must have had very good reasons for allowing it.


Chances of having that changed?

Well, since we now know what law your targeting to stop us from doing our lawfull practices, that just makes it easier for us to make a stand and have good points to stop its enactment.




And you mention serious enforcement.

Were not breaking laws now and are ethical outdoorspeople.

What makes YOU think WE need enforcement.



There are other users of these waterways that need to know the rules and be prepared to share. There are also rules for other users of federal waters apart from boating regulations.

Are YOU aware of the ones YOU break when you walk and wade?


I'm sure you do, but just choose to ignore them.



Thanks for sharing. You have been a great help.



STEELHEAD

[nekred]

OMG there arepeople who really do not know how to share...

I have discovered that if you have put up a bait station for bears on public land apparantly you now own the place and nobody dare setup anywhere near....

now if you are flyfishing in public waters...don't anybody in a jet boat appear...the flyfisherman now owns the water...

Get real guys did not your momma teach you to share....

I understand the need not to be an idiot about it and some coutesy is required.... Don't be doing donuts in a jetboat around a fisherman... and don't put your bait on top of another guys bait...

Who has precedence in eyes of law.........NEITHER One!...

[Dale S]

Thanks Steelhead I get your points.

[fish_fan]

They also added that exemption just for jet and powerboats in mind.

They thought hard about that exemption. And for good reason.

4 provinces combined came up with those rules. They must have had very good reasons for allowing it.


Chances of having that changed?

Well, since we now know what law your targeting to stop us from doing our lawfull practices, that just makes it easier for us to make a stand and have good points to stop its enactment.




And you mention serious enforcement.

Were not breaking laws now and are ethical outdoorspeople.

What makes YOU think WE need enforcement.



There are other users of these waterways that need to know the rules and be prepared to share. There are also rules for other users of federal waters apart from boating regulations.

Are YOU aware of the ones YOU break when you walk and wade?


I'm sure you do, but just choose to ignore them.



Thanks for sharing. You have been a great help.



STEELHEAD



jeese louise... the noise you guys make rivals that of the engines on your jet boats.

i got no problem with jet boats on a river where i got no business standing in cause its moving so fast. that point about your jet wash makes sense there. but it sure dont in alot of places people hike into to enjoy the calmness of nature.

i dont think i ever heard of a j-boat that can run in 8 inches of water and for sure the wash doesnt affect bottom or stir up anything at that depth.

next august when im standing in a foot of water fly fishing a pool of calm clear meandering river water and a juiced up adrenaline charged beer drinking gorilla comes screaming up the river at 40mph within a boat length of where im standing i might not smile and wave hello at you. just letting you know now so your not offended.

thats not sharing its get outa my way. now if you stop, idle back, let me clear my line. pick up my kid playing nearby. then pass through. I might just toss you one of my beer as you go by.

[ReconWilly]

Funniest thread title ever hahaha...is Funniest a even a word?:sign0161:

[darius]

From that other jet boat thread...If you slow down in a jetboat the boat rides lower in the water. The lower it rides in the water the bigger the wake.Its best to keep it on plain.

So when trolling from a jet boat you have to be going about 50 MPH at least.

Which is good because there is less chance of being hit with a brick thrown by those who are sick and tired of sharing the river with what some people are calling recreation in nature.

looks like duffy doesnt need to send pms to threaten people .

mr self righteous !

[steelhead]

Fish fan said....... now if you stop, idle back, let me clear my line. pick up my kid playing nearby. then pass through. I might just toss you one of my beer as you go by.


Totally reasonable and I have done this before, only I got hung up in shallows when I idled down. The family came over to help me out as they saw I was avoiding them. I took the kids for a ride.

There are good and decent jetters out there.


Now, if Duffy was interested in buying a spot in the regs and had some etiquette points to advertize for jet boaters, and made these points with other jetboaters, I can see an improvement in the way people conduct themselves on the water in regards to other users of a river. They will get read at least and his concerns go out to a larger audience of jetters. Perhaps a massive improvement in respect. Maybee one of the writers could forfiet his spot and just write about jetboats and etiquette. A whole article! LOL, i dont see that happening. too bad. Be more interesting than the recycled walleye, pike and trout tips that have never seemed to change through the last century of sportfishing in N.A.. Loved the goldeye article.



But, since he is seeking complete prohibition of a lawfull recreational activity enjoyed by thousands, well, i see complete failure. I look forward to it.

All the time wasted to gain a prohibition that will never happen, when that time could have been spent on actually getting the word out and improving things for all of us. Gotta share though.


There are jetters with a clue, and those with no clue.

Wanna change things?

Reach out to those without a clue and share some tips on safe riverboating. Those are the people you need to impact.

Once you start with the bashing, you will find yourself going in reverse very quickly.

Look at the catch and release program. They offer points, and tips and show pictures of proper live release techniques. Its been in the regs for the last 10 years. The result, well, I have heard the points recited to me as I was releasing a fish wrong. The word got to someone, then it got to me. That sir, is progress!


For the last 10 years of forums in this province, Quads have been a hotpoint. People wanted them banned and petitioned for it.

10 years later and they are still being used and in the same places they were allowed 10 years ago and there is still a plethora of posts about unethical quadders ruining it for everyone. Thats right, they did pass a bit of a feel good law to further charge them with. havent heard of anyone being charged yet, but they had to do something to please those for prohibition.

The registry did nothing to stop gun crime, Another law did nothing for quad problems, think it will work for jet boats?


10 years ago, if they had started to work with the quadders, there may be, in place now, a certain harmony between these opposing groups.

Naw, thats just rediculous. Not in this province.


Klein sold harmony and peace in the great privatization bash of the 90's.


Change peoples thinking, not the laws. You will win every time.


I have made my points and suggestions. Lets see what happens in 10 years.



STEELHEAD

[chubbdarter]

Sadly in the case of the Bow the push has started AGAIN

The pics are being snapped, a very influencial Club is involved. Certain rusty old gears are outspoken that the river belongs to them. The old excuse we bring in dollars from clients to enjoy the canadian wilderness and flyfish the blue ribbon Bow. LOL it flows thru the city of over 1 million people and the poop pipe is not a natural fresh water springs from the high Alps. If you think its Evian, drink up.

You want economic benifit for the city close the river to all floatation types for 2 weekends and have a jet boat race. Oh wait that would be wrong wouldnt it because it would like jet boaters own the river. That way of thinking only works for drift boats.

sharing is a world wide problem