Has the Bull trout protection act over done its purpose?

[chubbdarter]

2 pots of coffee later with a group of flyfishermen i respect, im starting to think a selective harvest may be needed on many waterways. Talk of some streams and creeks being over run was brought up numerous times. One comment was when the cougars out number the Deer, the end result cant be good.

This is not intended as a slap to SRD in any form. I have always considered the the fishermans voice as the a very important first alert or warning in the health of any fishery.

Whats your experience and opinion?

[the local angler]

i agree the cougar population should be also controled since i was fishing a stocked pond close to calgary, just when i was leaving i pulled out of the parking lot and drove a few km down the road only to see the biggest cougar i have ever seen run accross the road. it made me very nervous that i was unaware they were that close to where i was fishing.

[Pincherguy]

:sign0161:[QUOTE=the local angler;1541872]i agree the cougar population should be also controled since i was fishing a stocked pond close to calgary, just when i was leaving i pulled out of the parking lot and drove a few km down the road only to see the biggest cougar i have ever seen run accross the road. it made me very nervous that i was unaware they were that close to where i was fishing.

:sign0161: did the cougar get a bull trout:sign0161:

[tight line]

I have been fishing the Blackstone for 18 years, and can say it has not affected the cutt and white fish population, i can honestly say in the last few years i have caught less bulls than previously, however ran into some bigger ones, twice the size i had ever seen on that river. I have also come across signs of poaching( dead bull with bait hook in mouth/ minnow containers)so that might explain something. I have fished some smallwr creeks that are now closed.. Where if you hook a smaller fish you probably arent getting it in before a 10+ bull has it... I know F&W has been doing alot of research on that creek. It is definately a fine line. My feeling is they should stay protected... For now! Lol

[uplander]

The bulls still aren't back to the historic populations and ya they may never get there but the way I like to think of it is those big bulls that are hanging out in your favorite cutty streams are the last savior for those cutts because although they do eat the cutts they also eat the bows and Brookies that out compete cutts. Every fish has it's place non native and native.

[Kokanee9]

I would have to lean toward leaving things the way they are and protect the trout.

A good sized trout is always nice to have on the line. The possibility is very real that the bull may over-run some of the waterways, but if somebody is after a particular species that may have had a healthy population in a certain waterway, I would think that they may be found in a different body of water which does not hold bull trout.

[smitty9]

Nope.

Selective harvest is an excellent practice as a management tool.

But I don't think its needed for bull trout. I glad some of the population has bounced back, but they aren't "causing" any problems from what I can tell.

I use the quotes deliberately. The bottom line is to remember that when top end predators start to eat "too much" prey, their populations eventually crash. To use the example earlier, no way can cougar sustain themselves if they outnumber the prey. Rather straightforward in dealing with life-cycle populations dynamics.

And, as pointed out, AB does such a ridiculously poor job of enforcing its regulations, I suspect quite strongly their numbers are being limited due to poaching. I have no evidence to back this up aside from anecdotal observations from myself and reports from other anglers.

I say leave them alone for now; especially flowing waters.

Smitty

[the local angler]

:sign0161:[QUOTE=the local angler;1541872]i agree the cougar population should be also controled since i was fishing a stocked pond close to calgary, just when i was leaving i pulled out of the parking lot and drove a few km down the road only to see the biggest cougar i have ever seen run accross the road. it made me very nervous that i was unaware they were that close to where i was fishing.

:sign0161: did the cougar get a bull trout:sign0161:

i was mearly commenting on the cougar population vs deer comment chubbdarter made. lol i am part of the same project again this year on the brook trout control and its been fairly succesfull but all i kept catching was cutts and have yet to hit a bull in quite a few years. i think depending on which watershed some still need help.

[Sundancefisher]

Not until biomass levels reach the 1880's level. Controversial but I believe we need to improve productivity lost by 100 + years of harvest in low productivity streams.

[chubbdarter]

there is no right or wrong answer and i appreciate everyone being civil, makes for good discussion.

one thing that concerns me is how the past should of taught us some facts.

Not pnly was poaching a historic problem but the ease of catching mature bull trout magnified the problem. That compounded by the hatred some fisherman had for the species. Many accounts of Bulls becoming in the Bush Trout were common in their dominating years. Is there evidence of it happening again?.....i have a hard time accepting this , but have been invited to view the problem first hand. Maybe i just want to refuse to believe it, because i have witnessed it years ago in my youth. As a modern day example I still see Columbia river fisherman throw 13lb walleye into the bushes, for no other reason than 'they eat trout'

This sets up a difficult management issue with the Allowable Harvest and how its accounted for. I still dont believe most people know how bad this act of Bushing a Bull was when i was younger

[Gust]

[QUOTE=chubbdarter; I still dont believe most people know how bad this act of Bushing a Bull was when i was younger[/QUOTE]

Different fish but also noticeable change from bushing is Burbot,, when I was a kid piles of massive Burbs on shore was a common sight, and 48 inch ++ specimens too. With the Bull Trout, people maybe seeing numbers at specific stretches of stream but is the fish dispersed to where it once swam?

[THERICARDO]

I 100% agree with the Burbot example, when i first arrived in Canada and went to Diefenbaker the amount of Burbot tossed in the rocks was amazing .Will never forget asking a fisherman why he was tossing them in the rocks and all he said was they were competing for food with good fish in diefenbaker.

still boggles my mind

[chubbdarter]

The Burbot senario is a strange and bizzarre scenario

Alb ertans flocked to Kootenay lake in the past to catch Kokanee, only to hack them up for Burbot bait. Locals could catch enough kokes to just use koke heads for bait. Outsiders werent as good at koke fishing and would buck up the entire koke for bait. It wasnt long before all those 20lb + ling were gone

understanding human nature must be the hardest factor in any fish management program

[Buck Krazy]

Agree, too many stinky bulls

[jrs]

There's very very few recovered populations in Alberta, some increasing, but for the most part not approaching historic densities. Any harvest would have to be by tag system as open harvest could wipe them out quickly. I think poaching combined with catch and release mortality likely removes more fish than some populations can handle as is. Though it means a few less rainbows or cutts in some systems, i think thats just the way it needs to stay if we want to see continued expansion of bull trout into historic habitats.

[ishootbambi]

the mountain stream im most familiar with is the castle and its tribs. im not convinced there are so many bulls they are hurting other fish numbers......but im fully convinced it could support a harvest. i think a tag system like what is going on with walleye would be the best way to go about it.

if it happened, id bet some solid cash the alberta record could fall in the first year. ive seen several that would do it.

[BeeGuy]

$0.02

Leave'm alone for another 10 years.

[The Fisherman Guy]

Bulls can be one of the easiest species to catch in size, in comparison to Trout. Their predatory nature has headlined when it comes to big strikes, and big fish. Perhaps, with them being currently protected, they have grown in number to the point we are noticing them more often than recent previous years.

Has the program worked to increase the numbers of Bull Trout in Alberta waters? Yes, I believe it has.

Has poaching increased, yes. Laterally with the availability of more Bulls, but not out numbering the ratio of higher numbers of fish.

[Albertafisher]

Once they start populating the NSR in Edmonton city limits, then I think harvest might be an option. But that's never going to happen. If people want to keep bull trout, they are harvestable in BC, Yukon, and NWT.

[BeeGuy]

Maybe if we had 36" Bulls through out the middle and upper Bow, we could market it as Canada's Taimen, ambassador of the east slope.

[Sundancefisher]

When I radio tracked bulls in the Oldman system years back...we found lots of tags in the trees beside deep pools.

Any opening of bull trout will target the large mature spawners.

I say improve the growth and populations and then have a medium sized or small slot limit with tags.

Opening it up to harvest now would decimate a very concentrated population of spawners in any system. Hense they were decimated before.

[icefever]

Can't say if we should be harvesting them yet but I have definately noticed an increase in numbers and locations of bulls. Finding them in more and more streams all the time. Was on the livingstone and had about a 14" cutty on made a great snack for that 28" bull that grabed him. Caught 4 big ones on the highwood last weekend 24-28". Just not sure how long until they start to decrease the other fish populations.

[1/2 oz Bucktail]

Populations are dynamic. The bulls will never clean out a river. I am pretty sure that mature cutts, bows and grayling eat YOY bulls.

I suggest that a bunch of people should read some books or articles relating to the topic of population dynamics.

[happyfisher]

i would kill every bull trout in Alberta if i could and it was legal...."historic populations..." who cares...i dont.....we introduced the other trout species and got rid of the bulls for a reason a century ago. Now we want them back? why?

:argue2:

[Guitarplayingfish]

the mountain stream im most familiar with is the castle and its tribs. im not convinced there are so many bulls they are hurting other fish numbers......but im fully convinced it could support a harvest. i think a tag system like what is going on with walleye would be the best way to go about it.

if it happened, id bet some solid cash the alberta record could fall in the first year. ive seen several that would do it.


Populations are fine.

Leave it alone IMO.

[Guitarplayingfish]

i would kill every bull trout in Alberta if i could and it was legal...."historic populations..." who cares...i dont.....we introduced the other trout species and got rid of the bulls for a reason a century ago. Now we want them back? why?

:argue2:


You deserve a good smack :snapoutofit:

[McLeod]

Bulls will continue to be C and R . You will never see that change in this province.

[bugslinger22]

Why does nobody push for a bracketed size system in Alberta? Every study I've heard of shows that if you keep people from keeping spawners, the populations do well.

[smitty9]

Why does nobody push for a bracketed size system in Alberta? Every study I've heard of shows that if you keep people from keeping spawners, the populations do well.

Slot sizes have been tried by SRD after biologist recommendation (for walleye).

The angling public soundly rejected them by ignoring them by routinely keeping fish in the slot size. So angler compliance is a problem. There is a perception - rightly or wrongly - that slot size limits are "too complicated"
a regulation.

I don't think slot sizes are appropriate for bull trout anyways, since I'm of the opinion they regs should stay as they are.

On a separate note, I think its problematic wishing for the "good ol days". By that I mean, I'm not sure "historical" population levels is an appropriate benchmark to use when judging the success (or lack) of C&R on bull trout pop's.

Alberta has vastly changed since the historical days of settlement; habitat, industrial development, and, mostly, dams have forever changed the landscape and aquatic environments.

So I am not convinced we'll ever see angling like we did at the turn of the century (see the B&W photos of cutts and bulls being strung on a stringer between trees, often 30-50 fish). And that wouldn't be the point anyways.

The bottom line is that bull trout by the 90's were being pushed well into "threatened" status and edging closer to "rare". Success sought be measure by those stages of whether those populations that were vulnerable have rebounded to the point of "stable" and whether they can self sustain, without regards or (inappropriate) comparisons to the overwhelming abundance of bull trout numbers from the 1800's.

Smitty

[McLeod]

Slot sizes have been tried by SRD after biologist recommendation (for walleye).

The angling public soundly rejected them by ignoring them by routinely keeping fish in the slot size. So angler compliance is a problem. There is a perception - rightly or wrongly - that slot size limits are "too complicated"
a regulation.

I don't think slot sizes are appropriate for bull trout anyways, since I'm of the opinion they regs should stay as they are.

On a separate note, I think its problematic wishing for the "good ol days". By that I mean, I'm not sure "historical" population levels is an appropriate benchmark to use when judging the success (or lack) of C&R on bull trout pop's.

Alberta has vastly changed since the historical days of settlement; habitat, industrial development, and, mostly, dams have forever changed the landscape and aquatic environments.

So I am not convinced we'll ever see angling like we did at the turn of the century (see the B&W photos of cutts and bulls being strung on a stringer between trees, often 30-50 fish). And that wouldn't be the point anyways.

The bottom line is that bull trout by the 90's were being pushed well into "threatened" status and edging closer to "rare". Success sought be measure by those stages of whether those populations that were vulnerable have rebounded to the point of "stable" and whether they can self sustain, without regards or (inappropriate) comparisons to the overwhelming abundance of bull trout numbers from the 1800's.

Smitty


Well said !

Never liked the taste of Alberta's bulls in the old days anyways but hey folks
feel free to eat some of those BC Bulls or Dollies where allowed as they are quite tasty especially from the Arrows...

[walking buffalo]

2 pots of coffee later with a group of flyfishermen i respect, im starting to think a selective harvest may be needed on many waterways. Talk of some streams and creeks being over run was brought up numerous times. One comment was when the cougars out number the Deer, the end result cant be good.

This is not intended as a slap to SRD in any form. I have always considered the the fishermans voice as the a very important first alert or warning in the health of any fishery.

Whats your experience and opinion?


Bull Trout Protection Act?

Do you mean the Bull Trout Conservation Management Plan?


For people to answer the question, it will help if they understand the Management Plan goals and objectives.



Bull Trout Conservation Management Plan
2012 - 2017

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/FishWildlife/SpeciesAtRisk/LegalDesignationOfSpeciesAtRisk/documents/BullTroutConservationManagementPlan2012-2017.pdf

[chubbdarter]

Bull Trout Protection Act?

Do you mean the Bull Trout Conservation Management Plan?


For people to answer the question, it will help if they understand the Management Plan goals and objectives.



Bull Trout Conservation Management Plan
2012 - 2017

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/FishWildlife/SpeciesAtRisk/LegalDesignationOfSpeciesAtRisk/documents/BullTroutConservationManagementPlan2012-2017.pdf

Sure call it whatever you want

My OP simply asked what everyones first hand accounts were of the Bull trout populations and what if any changes they have seen occur since the Bull Trout Conservation Management Plan was put in place.

[crosbyfan123]

Bull Trout Protection Act?

Do you mean the Bull Trout Conservation Management Plan?


For people to answer the question, it will help if they understand the Management Plan goals and objectives.



Bull Trout Conservation Management Plan
2012 - 2017

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/FishWildlife/SpeciesAtRisk/LegalDesignationOfSpeciesAtRisk/documents/BullTroutConservationManagementPlan2012-2017.pdf

Who the hell would read a 100 page report of bull trout nothing special imo. They should open up bull trout for full harvest and get rid of them so i dont have to hear about the ugly things anymore.

[jrs]

Who the hell would read a 100 page report of bull trout nothing special imo. They should open up bull trout for full harvest and get rid of them so i dont have to hear about the ugly things anymore.

Case and point, poorly educated anglers and poachers are still diminishing bully numbers in many drainages. Lots of "sportsmen" don't view it as a valuable species if they're not allowed to keep them. These attitudes are why we'll be seeing more and more permanent closures in order to preserve certain species. Its already begun, momentum still exists to close more if warranted.

[slivers86]

I did a bit of reading on bull trout when trying to see if they existed in a creek I was fishing. Seems as though they have been reestablished in some areas, but in most of the areas in which the effort is being put in, they seem to be nowhere to be found, where as some areas, such as the k lakes, they appear to thrive, and enter to river system from there.

To add, the creek I was fishing at the time historically contained bull trout in large numbers, which were pushed to nothing. After a reintroduction in this creek, very little were found at the last count. Sad to say, but I think they wont be coming back, which is too bad!

[528guy]

Went out last weekend to livingstone area and caught more bulls than all other species combined...even caught one 14"er in a creek the size of a small ditch that I had to try cuz my girl said no way would I catch a fish in there. However...if it were not c&r only the next time I fish that ditch I might not be so lucky.

[Rockyman]

Lots of poaching is still going on, whether it is on purpose or people thinking they are catching brook trout (or so they say). I have seen lots of signs of poaching in the Blackstone and the Bighorn below Crescent Falls.

Pretty ridiculous when people on this forum are advocating to get rid of bull trout. The most telling post on this subject was:

"When I radio tracked bulls in the Oldman system years back...we found lots of tags in the trees beside deep pools."

[whitetail Junkie]

I love bull Trout! Theres no trout in Alberta's Rivers that compare to there strength and indurance.I vote to leave them alone and im an angler who always keep's fish to eat,when legal to do so.

[MoFugger21]

Haven't read through the whole the thread, but thought I'd add that I ran into a couple guys fishing right in the Livingstone Falls campground this weekend.

Apparently they are on the hunt for bulls within the majority of the Oldman system. They were catching, measuring, tagging, and taking DNA samples from the bulls they caught. I didn't spend a whole lot of time talking to the guy, but after I saw what they caught at the falls, I walked up and made the comment of " no shortage of bull trout around here." And his reply was, "nope, and were trying find out exactly how many there are."

Thought that was fairly interesting, but would be more interested to hear the results of their findings.

[duffy4]

Lots of poaching is still going on, whether it is on purpose or people thinking they are catching brook trout (or so they say). I have seen lots of signs of poaching in the Blackstone and the Bighorn below Crescent Falls.

Pretty ridiculous when people on this forum are advocating to get rid of bull trout. The most telling post on this subject was:

"When I radio tracked bulls in the Oldman system years back...we found lots of tags in the trees beside deep pools."


So do you think it was ospreys and eagles eating them or mink and otters?