Too Many Predators...

[bpk1982]

Was out hunting sw of Caroline this past weekend...buddy of mine was able to harvest a wt buck...seemed to be ok numbers for deer...had snow over night which was nice to see the fresh tracks...so we walked two cutlines, which connected to each other...we walked the first one and followed couger tracks (a pair of cougers) a couple km...got to the next cutline, and followed a wolf packs (figured at least 5) tracks again a few km...never did see a wolf/couger...then we finnish our hunt for the day...the next morning at first light, we returned to where we were at last light the night before...in the cutblock there was like 20 crows eating at something...I said to my partner that it can't be a gut pile, we were here at last light...on further investigation it was a wt doe killed by a pair of coyotes! She was half eaten and still warm...There was quite a struggle that you could easily see in the snow...they hounded her for quite a ways, spraying blood in spots...might have to try some predator hunting in this area over the winter! With this many predators moving into the area, only a matter of time before deer/moose numbers go down big time...

[gulo]

There always seems to be plenty of predators out here (i live in the general area) and there's certainly no shortage of game. There seems to be a balance out here - I doubt if we'll see big declines in game. Doesn't hurt to hunt some predators, but as a hunter myself (predator and game,) I can say with confidence that there are not "too many" predators, although people say this all the time. Everyone I know seems to be filling their tags and filling them fast.

[bpk1982]

There always seems to be plenty of predators out here (i live in the general area) and there's certainly no shortage of game. There seems to be a balance out here - I doubt if we'll see big declines in game. Doesn't hurt to hunt some predators, but as a hunter myself (predator and game,) I can say with confidence that there are not "too many" predators, although people say this all the time. Everyone I know seems to be filling their tags and filling them fast.

The areas that I hunt, I am seeing much more sign then in the past of predators...the last couple of years especially...time will tell...

[walking buffalo]

There always seems to be plenty of predators out here (i live in the general area) and there's certainly no shortage of game. There seems to be a balance out here - I doubt if we'll see big declines in game. Doesn't hurt to hunt some predators, but as a hunter myself (predator and game,) I can say with confidence that there are not "too many" predators, although people say this all the time. Everyone I know seems to be filling their tags and filling them fast.


Then what caused over 90% of the 4000+ Yaha Tinda Elk herd to die in less than a decade? The biologists doing detailed telemetry tracking of both wolves and elk in this area are convinced wolves wiped out the elk and moose here....


"Balance" in Nature is a fairytale promoted by the fanciful. Nature flows like a pendulum.... including extreme swings that result in the extirpation or extinction of species.



IMO, Yes, there are too many canine and feline predators in many areas of Alberta.

[bpk1982]

They go for the good stuff first...like I said before, she was still warm...maybe we spooked them off her?

[Red Bullets]

Just my 2 cents. To the people that say there should be less predators... you are just selfish and want all the 'game' to yourselves.

I bet the predators think the same about you as you think about them....

Last year resident hunters in alberta harvested:
38,829 whitetail
5,538 elk
12,827 mule deer
8,133 moose
1,466 black bear
164 pronghorn antelope.

A total of 66597 animals harvested by resident hunters in 2011. This is the government estimates so you can probably add 10 or 20% more on to this number to account for poaching. You can also add a few thousand more animals for the non resident hunters. So possibly as many as 90 to 100,000 animals total.
The whitetail population has increased over the years in Alberta so logic would suggest so will the predators. A good example is when the rabbit cycle goes higher the lynx population is sure to follow.

I think I would be more worried if the predator populations go down to much.
Kill the canine and feline predators and the rodent and bird populations will spike.
Kill the mink and the duck population goes up.
On the other side...overpopulation of any species will correct itself with disease or survival of the fittest.


The big picture is .. a human hunter is just another predator. Maybe in time we will have to thin human predators out too.

At least the wild predators eat everything they kill. I am sure there are lots of hunters that throw out freezer burnt meat so they can go kill another one. Just yesterday I was reading a post that someone stated they had meat that was 3 years old in the freezer. Should this hunter be allowed to harvest another animal with years old unconsumed game already in the freezer?

[Walleyes]

Just my 2 cents. To the people that say there should be less predators... you are just selfish and want all the 'game' to yourselves.

I bet the predators think the same about you as you think about them....

Last year resident hunters in alberta harvested:
38,829 whitetail
5,538 elk
12,827 mule deer
8,133 moose
1,466 black bear
164 pronghorn antelope.

A total of 66597 animals harvested by resident hunters in 2011. This is the government estimates so you can probably add 10 or 20% more on to this number to account for poaching. You can also add a few thousand more animals for the non resident hunters. So possibly as many as 90 to 100,000 animals total.
The whitetail population has increased over the years in Alberta so logic would suggest so will the predators. A good example is when the rabbit cycle goes higher the lynx population is sure to follow.

I think I would be more worried if the predator populations go down to much.
Kill the canine and feline predators and the rodent and bird populations will spike.
Kill the mink and the duck population goes up.
On the other side...overpopulation of any species will correct itself with disease or survival of the fittest.


The big picture is .. a human hunter is just another predator. Maybe in time we will have to thin human predators out too.

At least the wild predators eat everything they kill. I am sure there are lots of hunters that throw out freezer burnt meat so they can go kill another one. Just yesterday I was reading a post that someone stated they had meat that was 3 years old in the freezer. Should this hunter be allowed to harvest another animal with years old unconsumed game already in the freezer?

Well now I just can't live with myself :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Red Bullets]

Well now I just can't live with myself :cry: :cry: :cry:

Not meant to make you feel bad. I hunt ungulates and predators too. Just looking at the bigger picture. Humans do harvest alot of animals too.

[Walleyes]

Not meant to make you feel bad. I hunt ungulates and predators too. Just looking at the bigger picture. Humans do harvest alot of animals too.



Sorry to late,, I'm scarred for life now,, I just can't live with myself any longer,, I think it over for me..

[Pixel Shooter]

nothing personal but what a bunch of doo doo :rolleye2:


Just my 2 cents. To the people that say there should be less predators... you are just selfish and want all the 'game' to yourselves.

I bet the predators think the same about you as you think about them....

Last year resident hunters in alberta harvested:
38,829 whitetail
5,538 elk
12,827 mule deer
8,133 moose
1,466 black bear
164 pronghorn antelope.

A total of 66597 animals harvested by resident hunters in 2011. This is the government estimates so you can probably add 10 or 20% more on to this number to account for poaching. You can also add a few thousand more animals for the non resident hunters. So possibly as many as 90 to 100,000 animals total.
The whitetail population has increased over the years in Alberta so logic would suggest so will the predators. A good example is when the rabbit cycle goes higher the lynx population is sure to follow.

I think I would be more worried if the predator populations go down to much.
Kill the canine and feline predators and the rodent and bird populations will spike.
Kill the mink and the duck population goes up.
On the other side...overpopulation of any species will correct itself with disease or survival of the fittest.


The big picture is .. a human hunter is just another predator. Maybe in time we will have to thin human predators out too.

At least the wild predators eat everything they kill. I am sure there are lots of hunters that throw out freezer burnt meat so they can go kill another one. Just yesterday I was reading a post that someone stated they had meat that was 3 years old in the freezer. Should this hunter be allowed to harvest another animal with years old unconsumed game already in the freezer?

[Dunezilla]

Along with the predators come road kills too. That deep snow year claimed a number of fawns too so folks say. This year could be a deep snow year as well & maybe we will see a decrease in deer population again in some areas.

I leave the more dominate bucks along & let them live to produce good stock. That is one way in which I help. I can take 3 WT deer, but I take only what I want & what I will eat. On top of that I can bow hunt other big game animals during bow season, but again I take only what I know I can eat. That is another way I help.

There is the tick infestation. It is said predators claimed moose, well so did the tick.

Still, the government of Alberta can go back to how it was in the 80's & early 90's & allow only WT bucks to be shot & then on November 1st to the end of November allow that resident tag to take an anterless doe or buck to be taken.

Open up the general mule deer in some wmu's & only allow a bucks to be harvest & maybe a special mule deer doe tag for a few wmu's.

The rest stay on draws.

Then lets see what happens to the populations.

Like I said before deer & wolves lived together for 1000's of years & we still have deer today, & moose & elk.

Again just my opinion.

[gulo]

The whole "too many predators" issue goes back to the days we began settling here. It is a frontier mentality. When i hear someone say, "There are too many predators," the first thing i think is, "too many for what and for whom?" And the answer always seems to be, "too many for the hunters." The worst for this of course are the Yanks. They've forgotten how to live with wolves and they're damn near hysterical now that they've got them again. I like to remind them that we never obliterated ours, and somehow we've still remained a destination of choice for precisely those American hunters. To hear them tell it, we should have run out of game decades ago. Clearly, they are wrong. I too think this attitude of too many predators, that seems to always be there amongst a certain crowd regardless of how much game is around, is a just another form of human greed at work.

Maybe the ya-ha-tinda herd is diminished by wolves, but overall, and i'll say it again, my area is crawling with game. Every hunt this year has filled anothe tag, and I know others who have had the same success. If anything, there may be too much game - it's a good thing we're hunting it. I expect this is why there are so many predators - because game populations are so healthy. I see lion tracks regularly in my deer woods, but i have no trouble whatsoever filling tags.

At any rate, i agree with those who remind us that the game is not "our" game, it is just "the" game. We share it.

By the way, how come i never hear people saying, "There's too many people!" Now there's the truth.

[Walleyes]

The whole "too many predators" issue goes back to the days we began settling here. It is a frontier mentality. When i hear someone say, "There are too many predators," the first thing i think is, "too many for what and for whom?" And the answer always seems to be, "too many for the hunters."

Maybe the ya-ha-tinda herd is diminished by wolves, but overall, and i'll say it again, my area is crawling with game. Every hunt this year has filled anothe tag, and I know others who have had the same success. If anything, there may be too much game - it's a good thing we're hunting it. I expect this is why there are so many predators - because game populations are so healthy.

At any rate, i agree with those who remind us that the game is not "our" game, it is just "the" game. We share it.

By the way, how come i never hear people saying, "There's too many people!" Now there's the truth.

No argument from me there..

Please God Let This Oil Boom End So Everyone Can Just Go Home..

[Nait Hadya]

They go for the good stuff first...like I said before, she was still warm...maybe we spooked them off her?

coyote? never seen a coyote that could gut a deer like that. were the tenderloins missing?

[bpk1982]

coyote? never seen a coyote that could gut a deer like that. were the tenderloins missing?

Not sure if that's sarcasm but....now you have seen a coyote gut a deer like that .

[Nait Hadya]

Was out hunting sw of Caroline this past weekend...buddy of mine was able to harvest a wt buck...seemed to be ok numbers for deer...had snow over night which was nice to see the fresh tracks...so we walked two cutlines, which connected to each other...we walked the first one and followed couger tracks (a pair of cougers) a couple km...got to the next cutline, and followed a wolf packs (figured at least 5) tracks again a few km...never did see a wolf/couger...then we finnish our hunt for the day...the next morning at first light, we returned to where we were at last light the night before...in the cutblock there was like 20 crows eating at something...I said to my partner that it can't be a gut pile, we were here at last light...on further investigation it was a wt doe killed by a pair of coyotes! She was half eaten and still warm...There was quite a struggle that you could easily see in the snow...they hounded her for quite a ways, spraying blood in spots...might have to try some predator hunting in this area over the winter! With this many predators moving into the area, only a matter of time before deer/moose numbers go down big time...

.

[bpk1982]

Not sure what your getting at nait? Just come out and say it...whatever is on your mind...

[Rocky7]

The areas that I hunt, I am seeing much more sign then in the past of predators....

Most people are not aware that there was a consistent and focussed effort to cull predators, especially wolves, from the late 19th century well into the last half of the 20th century all across the West and into the North.

That's the reason we remember plentiful game. That was not "status quo". It was us.

The anti-hunting crowd point back at that time of plentiful game and claim it was the balance of nature. The fact is, we had our thumb on the scale. If we had any sense, we'd be doing that again.

Nature is not a balance. It never has been. Nature is a see-saw.

[Stinky Buffalo]

Please God Let This Oil Boom End So Everyone Can Just Go Home..

Hahahahahah! Awesome.

[gulo]

Most people are not aware that there was a consistent and focussed effort to cull predators, especially wolves, from the late 19th century well into the last half of the 20th century all across the West and into the North.

That's the reason we remember plentiful game. That was not "status quo". It was us.

The anti-hunting crowd point back at that time of plentiful game and claim it was the balance of nature. The fact is, we had our thumb on the scale. If we had any sense, we'd be doing that again.

Nature is not a balance. It never has been. Nature is a see-saw.

Most people are also not aware that as early as the time of the American Civil War, game populations in the east (where most of us were at the time,) were already decimated - deer, turkey, elk (gone) bison (gone) - and at a fraction of the human population we have today. That was us, too.

This is a complex subject, and what annoys me most about the inevitable "too many predators" comment is how simplistic a view it represents. Sometimes this is the case, sometimes it isn't. Just like you said, nature is a see-saw. Try to simplify nature and you will probably be doing damage.

I will say this - once each of us has shot a certain number of game animals, it's probably just good practice to kill a predator or two. I'll be doing my part.

[grinr]

No argument from me there..

Please God Let This Oil Boom End So Everyone Can Just Go Home..

X3
Too many for whom??Exactly! If the game was not sufficient to sustain them,then the pred numbers would coincidingly decline.
FWIW,I've also spent some time hunting west of Caroline and agree....lotsa wolf,yote and cougar tracks....lotsa deer and moose tracks....all good IMHO?

[Rocky7]

I will say this - once each of us has shot a certain number of game animals, it's probably just good practice to kill a predator or two. I'll be doing my part.

That's exactly how I see it. 2 is better than 1.:)

And if you didn't shoot an elk this year but shoot 2-3 wolves anyway plus a bear, you're chances for an elk are better next year.

BTW, there are more WT deer now than when the white man first landed. Buffalo, no, but that was not as simple as you think, either. It's a bigger story than buffalo hunters.

[aulrich]

At this point I am a firm beliver in that we need predators to keep heards healthy. but I also belive that some predator control is required, for the reason that the predators have a "thumb to put on the scale as well. That thumb is preying on livestock. A couple of live stock kills keeps predators alive that should have died, keeping undue pressure on game animals. So killing some predators is required.

That does mean itis longer between tags, but i'll give thata up for a healthier total system.

[Pixel Shooter]

nicely put!

This is a complex subject, and what annoys me most about the inevitable "too many predators" comment is how simplistic a view it represents. Sometimes this is the case, sometimes it isn't. Just like you said, nature is a see-saw. Try to simplify nature and you will probably be doing damage.

I will say this - once each of us has shot a certain number of game animals, it's probably just good practice to kill a predator or two. I'll be doing my part.

[gulo]

I gotta say, it's sure nice to be on a hunting forum where people are actually thinking about things, even if we don't all agree 100%...

Just for entertainment, here's another reason i take the "too many predators" comments with a grain of salt.

We got some "wild" (re: completely neglected) horses on a property near us (these are not the truly wild horses of the hills here, just a group that has been abandoned.) Of course, some of them die. The other day, a yearling that had been in poor health finally keeled over. One of the local ranchers mentioned to me it had finally just died after a long illness. Well, along comes the landowner: "Grizzly killed a yearling horse!" Now everyone in the area is talking about grizzly killed horse. Neglect killed that horse. Lots of them saying, "Too many grizzlies!"

I come across dead cattle regularly in the hills, often untouched. They just drop here and there. Some of the ranchers assume that every cow they lose is wolves, even if they never see the cow. They see wolves, they're missing a cow, and it's "There's too many wolves!"

On another note, i had a rancher two days ago tell me, and this is no word a lie, "Sure, you can shoot some coyotes. But we got a pack of wolves and I want you to leave them alone. There's too many deer and elk around here!"

[NCC]

We can let the cycle continue until the ungulates are virtually wiped out and then the predator populations will fall. The other option is to manage the predators at a consistent level that leaves a reasonable number of ungulates now and also sustains the predators so they aren't starving out in a few years.

From what I've read this is about a fifty year cycle, so get prepared for a lot of dry years. The predator hunting will be easy though, as when they run out of elk and moose they'll be looking for dogs and cats.

[Speckle55]

:thinking-006:Circle of Life :sHa_shakeshout:

David:)

[Don K]

Way to many around here...
Kill em all I say. :love0025:

[catnthehat]

We can let the cycle continue until the ungulates are virtually wiped out and then the predator populations will fall. The other option is to manage the predators at a consistent level that leaves a reasonable number of ungulates now and also sustains the predators so they aren't starving out in a few years.

From what I've read this is about a fifty year cycle, so get prepared for a lot of dry years. The predator hunting will be easy though, as when they run out of elk and moose they'll be looking for dogs and cats.

I think mankind throws a monkey wrench into many cylcle theories, because we are omitted from the original formula.
Cat

[walking buffalo]

:thinking-006:Circle of Life :sHa_shakeshout:

David:)

http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy10/keetspics/Circleoflife.jpg

[creeky]

I think mankind throws a monkey wrench into many cylcle theories, because we are omitted from the original formula.
Cat

nice analogy Cat, utterly and completely agree! Best regards Creeky.

[walking buffalo]

I think mankind throws a monkey wrench into many cylcle theories, because we are omitted from the original formula.
Cat

What original formula? :confused:


Humans have competed with other predators for resources throughout our existance, and vise versa.

We still do, be it wolves or weevils.

[catnthehat]

What original formula? :confused:


Humans have competed with other predators for resources throughout our existance, and vise versa.

We still do, be it wolves or weevils.

The original formulla being the idea that we can control the other predators so that we can have the animals to ourselves and that if we kill off all the predators, and in killling off all predators except ourelves, we will wlays have ungulates to hunt.

Cat

[walking buffalo]

I think mankind throws a monkey wrench into many cylcle theories, because we are omitted from the original formula.
Cat

The original formulla being the idea that we can control the other predators so that we can have the animals to ourselves and that if we kill off all the predators, and in killling off all predators except ourelves, we will wlays have ungulates to hunt.

Cat



Ahhh... If I interpret this correctly, mankind is applying the wrench "today" by testing new management theories that exclude human induced predator mortality, taking humans out of the original formula. I concur, to a degree.


It is ironic how many Animal Rights Activist groups have no issue with wiping out prey species as a means of predator population control, but scream like Hades has emerged when the topic of killing a predator is considered.

It is so much more "Humane" to purposefully over-harvest prey species with the intent to starve predators into a "natural balance"....:rolleye2:

[st99]

we try to make antis understand that we human have been and still are part of the ecosystem as a natural predator..... mission impossible, even among hunters some don't understand who we are !!!

[Red Bullets]

even among hunters some don't understand who we are !!!

I agree. I have noticed that most of the younger generation have lost the instinct of the hunter and gatherer. Alot of the 'bushcraft' hunting knowledge has been lost.
The young hunter interested in taking up hunting should have to apprentice under a seasoned mentor for the first year or two to learn the "old ways". Not to say the old ways were always the easiest or couldn't be improved upon. But the old ways at least taught self reliance better than some lure or product ever could.

Todays 'media connected' hunters are consumed with the commercialism of hunting with all the latest lures, products and technology. If you put anyone of them in the bush without their 'modern gear' there would be confusion as to how to approach the hunt. Good hunters do not wander around aimlessly hoping to harvest meat but know their place and role in the ecosystem.

A successful bush smart hunter/gatherer has a sense of confidence and self-reliance that cannot be acquired from anywhere else or from any product.