Outfitter Tag Numbers/Mule Deer?

[trophyboy]

Anyone know how I can find out the number of outfitter tags given out for Mule Deer in each of the WMU's as opposed to the normal resident tags just to see if they are somewhat in check or not?

Just want to see if all is fair for the average Joe and the 5% rule has been reinstated or if the gov't is allowing outfitters to make their own rules again.

[duncan4]

Go into fish and wild life. Ask for there list of outfitters allocations. Not sure why your concerned about this even if there giving out 20% I doubt you will be able to get them to change anything.

[sheephunter]

If I'm not mistaken, APOS is in negotiations regarding allocation numbers right now so the numbers may change or may not change very shortly.

[WhiteyChaser]

Yeah APOS is currently in negotiations reviewing/adjusting allocation numbers. After this year it will not change for another 5 years as it is reviewed and adjusted in 5 year periods I believe.

[elkhunter11]

If I'm not mistaken, APOS is in negotiations regarding allocation numbers right now so the numbers may change or may not change very shortly.


Why would the government allow APOS, who allows convicted criminals, and convicted poachers as members, to negotiate anything? APOS having a say, in this certainly won't benefit the Alberta hunting community.

[whitetail Junkie]

If I'm not mistaken, APOS is in negotiations regarding allocation numbers right now so the numbers may change or may not change very shortly.

Considering that there are a handfull of wmu's that only gave out 5 mule buck tags in 2011 & 2012 to resident hunters.....There better be a Big change/major reduction to outfitter allocations.including antelope allocations aswell.

[BuckHunterBowen]

I hope allocations are raised as the mule deer draws in my zone have gone up in numbers. It would only be fair

[jaylow?]

Why wouldn't it be fair for more albertans to have a chance at Alberta's mule deer rather than someone from out of province or out of country? To line your pockets? I personally couldn't care less if you get any allocations dude.

[Ryry4]

Why would the government allow APOS, who allows convicted criminals, and convicted poachers as members, to negotiate anything? APOS having a say, in this certainly won't benefit the Alberta hunting community.

Might have something to do with APOS being the advocating group for outfitters. Yes, those nasty, nasty evil outfitters. Everybody's got to make a living, and I would bet they've got families to feed too.

:snapoutofit:

[Ryry4]

Why wouldn't it be fair for more albertans to have a chance at Alberta's mule deer rather than someone from out of province or out of country? To line your pockets? I personally couldn't care less if you get any allocations dude.

Would you like the opportunity to hunt outside of Alberta one day? Like I said before everyone has to make a living. Does your employment benefit from anything outside of Alberta?

[foothills26]

Would you like the opportunity to hunt outside of Alberta one day? Like I said before everyone has to make a living. Does your employment benefit from anything outside of Alberta?

I agree it would be nice to be able to hunt outside of Alberta one day but it would be even nicer if Alberta residents who contribute to the province through taxes and such are able to have a better chance to hunt in their own province for all species in all WMU's with more tags allocated for us than non residents.

[Thinlizzy]

I agree it would be nice to be able to hunt outside of Alberta one day but it would be even nicer if Alberta residents who contribute to the province through taxes and such are able to have a better chance to hunt in their own province for all species in all WMU's with more tags allocated for us than non residents.

x2! I have been waiting 4 years and may not get my draw for mule deer next year depending on how many guys put in. Yet some rich american can come up every year and hunt the same wmu. I don't have the money but even if I did because I am Albertan I can't pay the same outfitter for a Tag!
Something seems wrong:thinking-006:

[BuckHunterBowen]

Why is it ok for a Canadian to go to the states and kill a desert sheep or into Mexican and hunt one but it's wrong for them to come and hunt our animals

[Lefty-Canuck]

Why is it ok for a Canadian to go to the states and kill a desert sheep or into Mexican and hunt one but it's wrong for them to come and hunt our animals

Animal numbers should dictate opportunities....not 5 year contracts that do not take into account environmental or year over year diversity factors.

LC

[missingtwo]

non- res can hunt a moose EVERY year. THAT is BULL CHiT!!!!
I couldn't give a rats behind if an outfitter has to make a living, he can do it in other ways. It's time ALBERTAN'S have more oppotunity in their own province. Sask. has it right with their mule deer. ONLY residents get a tag.

[BigJon]

I don't want to see outfitting cease to exist...some outfitting operations; yes but the industry in general; no.

In WMUs where there is only a handful of resident tags I feel NRA allocations should be punted out the door.

With the shortening of sheep seasons coming our way I think that the allowable NRA harvest should also be lowered...

We'll see what the discussions bring but I am not optimistic that resident hunters will be well represented.

[missingtwo]

Why is it ok for a Canadian to go to the states and kill a desert sheep or into Mexican and hunt one but it's wrong for them to come and hunt our animals

It's wrong when their are more tags given to non-res then to res. I used moose in my above post as an example. As long as non-res pay they get a moose tag every year. Res can't purchase. Why not?

[Thinlizzy]

Why is it ok for a Canadian to go to the states and kill a desert sheep or into Mexican and hunt one but it's wrong for them to come and hunt our animals

So the rules are the same down there? Someone from Nevada who applies for a sheep draw can't purchase a tag from a local outfitter if they weren't successful?
I don't know enough about how each state runs there draw systems and Outfitter tags.
Maybe people from out of Country should apply for draws like the rest of us?

[Thinlizzy]

non- res can hunt a moose EVERY year. THAT is BULL CHiT!!!!
I couldn't give a rats behind if an outfitter has to make a living, he can do it in other ways. It's time ALBERTAN'S have more oppotunity in their own province. Sask. has it right with their mule deer. ONLY residents get a tag.

Like!:)

[Ryry4]

So the rules are the same down there? Someone from Nevada who applies for a sheep draw can't purchase a tag from a local outfitter if they weren't successful?
I don't know enough about how each state runs there draw systems and Outfitter tags.
Maybe people from out of Country should apply for draws like the rest of us?

Outfitters have no allocation down here. You draw you go hunting don't matter what flag you fly.

[Ryry4]

Animal numbers should dictate opportunities....not 5 year contracts that do not take into account environmental or year over year diversity factors.

LC

I agree this should be looked at but how is it going to be regulated? How is a guy supposed to run a business wihout knowing what he's got? Look what happened in the NWT when the gov't shut down the caribou hunt because the herd made a left turn instead of a right turn.

[Ryry4]

Why is it ok for a Canadian to go to the states and kill a desert sheep or into Mexican and hunt one but it's wrong for them to come and hunt our animals

My point exactly.

[Ryry4]

I agree it would be nice to be able to hunt outside of Alberta one day but it would be even nicer if Alberta residents who contribute to the province through taxes and such are able to have a better chance to hunt in their own province for all species in all WMU's with more tags allocated for us than non residents.

Do you know for a fact that there are more non-resident tags given out in Alberta than resident tags?

[elkhunter11]

Might have something to do with APOS being the advocating group for outfitters. Yes, those nasty, nasty evil outfitters. Everybody's got to make a living, and I would bet they've got families to feed too.

I have nothing against outfitters, in fact I have friends who are outfitters. What I am against is an organization that allows convicted criminals, and convicted poachers to remain members, having a say in wildlife management. The fact that APOS allows criminals and poachers to be members , proves that they are not trustworthy.

Do you know for a fact that there are more non-resident tags given out in Alberta than resident tags?

When I contacted SRD, and the minister in charge concerning the Pronghorn allocations in 2011, they confirmed that in some wmus, outfitters had more allocations than there were resident tags drawn.

[Ryry4]

non- res can hunt a moose EVERY year. THAT is BULL CHiT!!!!
I couldn't give a rats behind if an outfitter has to make a living, he can do it in other ways. It's time ALBERTAN'S have more oppotunity in their own province. Sask. has it right with their mule deer. ONLY residents get a tag.

Don't care if someone has to make a living? Interesting, when your out of work tell me how you enjoy that.

[bezner]

if everyone is always comlaining abut apos and outfitters, then why does everyone give them permission...go around to your neighbours and get them to all sign a piece of paper that everyone agrees not to let them on their land, fight the outfitters by not letting them on the land, that can be the only way i can see it working...we did this back home and the local outfitters went under within three years.....problem solved.....just an idea

[sheephunter]

Animal numbers should dictate opportunities....not 5 year contracts that do not take into account environmental or year over year diversity factors.

LC

I get the five year allocations from a business perspective and I think it's important to look at the harvest over those five years and see if tyhe average works out to the allocated percentage of harvest or not. It's easy to cherry pick years and say it's not fair. I'm guessing if you went back a few years when they were wholesaling out tags for antelope and mule deer to residents and looked at what outfitters got, it likely looked pretty unfair to them. I have no idea if they are getting more or less than their allocated percentage...just pointing out that it needs to be looked at in context and not with cherry picked numbers. That works for both the outfitters and residents.

[Ryry4]

I get the five year allocations from a business perspective and I think it's important to look at the harvest over those five years and see if tyhe average works out to the allocated percentage of harvest or not. It's easy to cherry pick years and say it's not fair. I'm guessing if you went back a few years when they were wholesaling out tags for antelope and mule deer to residents and looked at what outfitters got, it likely looked pretty unfair to them. I have no idea if they are getting more or less than their allocated percentage...just pointing out that it needs to be looked at in context and not with cherry picked numbers. That works for both the outfitters and residents.

Well said Sheep. Better than I could have said it.

[elkhunter11]

Animal numbers should dictate opportunities....not 5 year contracts that do not take into account environmental or year over year diversity factors.

Exactly. If we are going to ignore yearly animal population fluctuations when outfitter allocations are set, why doesn't SRD set the resident tag numbers for the same five years? In that way , you could guarantee that the outfitter allocation numbers never exceed the desired percentage. :thinking-006:

Before someone posts how that isn't logical, prepare to also post why it's okay to give the outfitters a five year guarantee, but it's not okay to give the tax paying Alberta residents the same guarantee.

Wouldn't the best solution be to adjust both the outfitter allocations and the resident tag numbers when the population declines?

[Ryry4]

Exactly. If we are going to ignore yearly animal population fluctuations when outfitter allocations are set, why doesn't SRD set the resident tag numbers for the same five years? In that way , you could guarantee that the outfitter allocation numbers never exceed the desired percentage. :thinking-006:

Before someone posts how that isn't logical, prepare to also post why it's okay to give the outfitters a five year guarantee, but it's not okay to give the tax paying Alberta residents the same guarantee.

Wouldn't the best solution be to adjust both the outfitter allocations and the resident tag numbers when the population declines?

I agree 100%. Set them both the same, I wouldn't have any issue with that.

[jaylow?]

I agree it would be nice to be able to hunt outside of Alberta one day but it would be even nicer if Alberta residents who contribute to the province through taxes and such are able to have a better chance to hunt in their own province for all species in all WMU's with more tags allocated for us than non residents.

I agree , I have nothing against fitters and guides at all. But I do think the game animals of Alberta are primarily for the people of Alberta . I'd bet most people think like this.

[sheephunter]

Exactly. If we are going to ignore yearly animal population fluctuations when outfitter allocations are set, why doesn't SRD set the resident tag numbers for the same five years? In that way , you could guarantee that the outfitter allocation numbers never exceed the desired percentage. :thinking-006:



Likely because residents are 95% of the harvest and outfitters are 5%...come on elk....it's pretty simple math. That 5% isnt going to have a significant effect on overall population in a year or two span...the 95%...well I'm sure you get it.

I agree, optically it seems very unfair some years but it needs to be looked at in context. If looked at in context and the outfitters are getting more than their share, then yes, they need to be cut back.

[livinstone]

THANK YOU missingtwo l know there had to be somebody with some common SENSE still out there well said.

[jaylow?]

I'd prefer the idea of a guy applying for his tag in Alberta and if successful hires a guiding service from an outfitter rather than the fitter holding guaranteed allocations.

[C Taylor]

Ya it would be very hard to book a hunt for 2 years from now when the outfitter don't know how many tags he has to sell. I do feel sorry for Americans coming up to hunt whitetail in zones with next to no whitetail left. I'd be PO'd coming up and not seeing anything but the odd spiker

[Ryry4]

I'd prefer the idea of a guy applying for his tag in Alberta and if successful hires a guiding service from an outfitter rather than the fitter holding guaranteed allocations.

That's the way it works in most of the western states.

[elkhunter11]

Likely because residents are 95% of the harvest and outfitters are 5%...come on elk....it's pretty simple math. That 5% isnt going to have a significant effect on overall population in a year or two span...the 95%...well I'm sure you get it.


I am sure that you are well aware that with some species, the outfitter allocations make up far more than 5% of the harvest. In 2011,and 2012, the outfitter allocations amounted to close to 30% of all pronghorn tags. When dealing with a significant decline in a game population, 30% is significant. And with the pronghorn population likely to take several more years to recover to the desired levels, those numbers are very likely to continue. However, I am thinking that when the allocation numbers are set for the next five years, the people setting the allocation numbers will be predicting a miracle increase in the population.

Ya it would be very hard to book a hunt for 2 years from now when the outfitter don't know how many tags he has to sell. I do feel sorry for Americans coming up to hunt whitetail in zones with next to no whitetail left. I'd be PO'd coming up and not seeing anything but the odd spiker

If you were a reputable outfitter, would you not disclose that fact to your clients before they traveled a long distance to hunt? In other words, that situation should never occur.

[sheephunter]

I am sure that you are well aware that with some species, the outfitter allocations make up far more than 5% of the harvest. In 2011,and 2012, the outfitter allocations amounted to close to 30% of all pronghorn tags. When dealing with a significant decline in a game population, 30% is significant.

When only harvesting males, it really isn't that significant to the overall population of the herd. I agree the optics of it suck and it may very well be that over the past 5 years outfitters got more than 5%. In that case, measures need to be taken to ensure that is corrected. I don't honestly know how it looks over the past five years.

[Sako]

In my zone it takes thee years priorty for antlered Mule Deer, but an Outfitter with 10 tags is taking the 10 BEST!!! bucks out of the same area for those 3 years and every year!!

[MOAhunter]

Might have something to do with APOS being the advocating group for outfitters. Yes, those nasty, nasty evil outfitters. Everybody's got to make a living, and I would bet they've got families to feed too.

:snapoutofit:

This dead horse has been kicked thousands of times.

Are you not aware of how the mule deer draw is handled in an exemplary way in SK?
Residents only for starters can hunt MD and no guiding on private land.

Does this not make perfect logic and sense?

What benefit as tax payers and hunters are we getting from these outfitters exploiting this resource (trophy animals). Nothing. Decreased opportunity is what we get in return. As residents we get punished and can't even buy a hunt and MD tag for ourselves from these outfitters. There is need to run things like a third world country here so foreigners can shoot MD.
Many outfitters only do this as a side line anyways, there isn't a tremendous amount of money in outfitting.
They shouldn't depending on exploiting a resource that ought to be available to residents first to feed their families. This is wrong.

[ganderblaster]

if everyone is always comlaining abut apos and outfitters, then why does everyone give them permission...go around to your neighbours and get them to all sign a piece of paper that everyone agrees not to let them on their land, fight the outfitters by not letting them on the land, that can be the only way i can see it working...we did this back home and the local outfitters went under within three years.....problem solved.....just an idea

Because money talks and Toyota flat beds can drive fast?

[elkhunter11]

Are you not aware of how the mule deer draw is handled in an exemplary way in SK?
Residents only for starters can hunt MD and no guiding on private land.

Does this not make perfect logic and sense?

It's the same for elk,pronghorn and even pheasant in Saskatchewan. And yes, it does make sense to put the tax paying residents of the province ahead of non residents.

[Ryry4]

In my zone it takes thee years priorty for antlered Mule Deer, but an Outfitter with 10 tags is taking the 10 BEST!!! bucks out of the same area for those 3 years and every year!!

How many resident tags are issues? Is the outfitter taking the best buck because he has more tags than all of the residents combined or is he just breed at getting big bucks than the residents hunting the same area?

[Ryry4]

It's the same for elk,pronghorn and even pheasant in Saskatchewan. And yes, it does make sense to put the tax paying residents of the province ahead of non residents.

Just another reason never to set foot in Saskatchewan.

[Ryry4]

They shouldn't depending on exploiting a resource that ought to be available to residents first to feed their families. This is wrong.

With that logic you should be advocating the shutting down of the oil and has industry in Alberta also.

[elkhunter11]

Just another reason never to set foot in Saskatchewan.

I guess that the outfitters in Saskatchewan must be better businessmen than some of the outfitters in other provinces, because despite more stringent outfitting rules, they still manage to make outfitting profitable.

With that logic you should be advocating the shutting down of the oil and has industry in Alberta also.

The oil and gas industry in Alberta is feeding many Alberta families.

[Deer Hunter]

APOS is an active special interest group that gets results year over year for their clients being outfitters. They are extremely good at getting what they want for these outfitters.

Alberta's resident hunters have the AFGA as our representitive group. What have they done for us lately wrt to resident opportunities and public land access?

[Ryry4]

I guess that the outfitters in Saskatchewan must be better businessmen than some of the outfitters in other provinces, because despite more stringent outfitting rules, they still manage to make outfitting profitable.

How are the mule deer, elk, pronghorn, and pheasant outfitters doing in Saskatchewan?

[Ryry4]

The oil and gas industry in Alberta is feeding many Alberta families.

Missed my point completely.

[whitetail Junkie]

Just another reason never to set foot in Saskatchewan.

You Are the person thats got it wrong,saskatchewan's got it right.

You are the minority Alberta resident hunter who leaves the province to hunt in other places.

Things will be changeing for the better in the future for Alberta resident hunters,The Majority!

[elkhunter11]

How are the mule deer, elk, pronghorn, and pheasant outfitters doing in Saskatchewan?

About as well as the grizzly and mountain goat outfitters in Alberta are doing. A smart businessman simply chooses a species that the rules allow him to hunt.

[Thinlizzy]

Power to us the 99%:sHa_shakeshout:
:):thinking-006:

[BigRackLover]

Yeah APOS is currently in negotiations reviewing/adjusting allocation numbers. After this year it will not change for another 5 years as it is reviewed and adjusted in 5 year periods I believe.

5 years is ridiculous in my opinion, especially after bad winters.

[Ryry4]

You Are the person thats got it wrong,saskatchewan's got it right.

You are the minority Alberta resident hunter who leaves the province to hunt in other places.

Things will be changeing for the better in the future for Alberta resident hunters,The Majority!

And I've never complained about the opportunities I've had in Alberta. I've killed plenty of big deer when the local outfitter couldn't and when residents were complaining of no big deer in the same country.

[Ryry4]

About as well as the grizzly and mountain goat outfitters in Alberta are doing. A smart businessman simply chooses a species that the rules allow him to hunt.

And when those rules change and the gov't puts you out of business then what?

[missingtwo]

Don't care if someone has to make a living? Interesting, when your out of work tell me how you enjoy that.

Really ryry4, Are you working in the field you were trained in? I know a lot of people that aren't. When I'm out of work I'll be the first in line putting apllications in.
I should have worded differtly. I should have said "I don't care if the outfitters are not making a living outfitting" Oh.... but I did, he can make a living other ways.

[sheephunter]

And I've never complained about the opportunities I've had in Alberta. I've killed plenty of big deer when the local outfitter couldn't and when residents were complaining of no big deer in the same country.

I had dinner with an outfitter last week when we were on the Wounded Warrior hunt and we got talking about a big antelope that I killed a few years ago. It seems they tried to kill him all of the bow season with no luck and then couldn't figure out where he went in rifle season. They even had him named and everything. Everyone had a pretty good laugh about it. The antelope hanging in my office now has a name, "Harley"....lol

[elkhunter11]

5 years is ridiculous in my opinion, especially after bad winters.

Any predictions as to any changes in the number of allocations? It's just a guess on my part, but my prediction is that APOS and SRD will be predicting an immediate recovery in the pronghorn populations , so that they have an excuse for not drastically reducing the allocation numbers. However, when the miracle recovery does not materialize, the number of resident tags will remain way below historical levels, and the outfitters will continue to have more than 20% of the pronghorn tags for the next five years.

And when those rules change and the gov't puts you out of business then what?

Then a smart business man chooses another business, while a poor businessman sits around and whines that he can't make a living.

[foothills26]

Really ryry4, Are you working in the field you were trained in? I know a lot of people that aren't. When I'm out of work I'll be the first in line putting apllications in.
I should have worded differtly. I should have said "I don't care if the outfitters are not making a living outfitting"



I think that being an outfitter is one of those jobs that you do because you love it. I'm sure they aren't it for the money and there is definitely lots of hard work and time involved but at the end of the day I'm sure it is still enjoyed. That is great for them that they can do it but if all of a sudden that job market is no longer there they may have to go to another profession that they may not like as much just like a lot of other people must do. I am in no way saying that outfitters should disappear altogether I think that if money can be made doing it in a way where the Alberta resident is not affected by tag allocations then all the power to them. But at the end of the day if it affects them because rules change on tag allocations so be it. It would be unfortunate for them and I would feel bad for them but its just like any other job. Things change and sometimes you have to switch professions.

[Lefty-Canuck]

I agree this should be looked at but how is it going to be regulated? How is a guy supposed to run a business wihout knowing what he's got? Look what happened in the NWT when the gov't shut down the caribou hunt because the herd made a left turn instead of a right turn.

Certain businesses carry certain risks associated. I agree with EH11 above that if tags need to be adjusted (ie number of draws handed out on a year to year basis) for the resident hunter then the same proportion of reduction should apply to the outfitters...we know this did not hold true the past few years in the South for certain species.

The 5 year allocations should come with a caveat that at anytime the Gov't can pull back and NOT with a 5 year "guarantee"...the outfitter only has to charge more for the tags he does get. His clients should understand that if his tags reduced from 5 to 3 that if they want that tag they got to ante up more. Supply and demand....

LC

[Rhino81]

I agree it would be nice to be able to hunt outside of Alberta one day but it would be even nicer if Alberta residents who contribute to the province through taxes and such are able to have a better chance to hunt in their own province for all species in all WMU's with more tags allocated for us than non residents. I hope if anything we as outfitters and guides get more allocations. Will the whining ever stop. I doudt it.

[Ryry4]

.

[Ryry4]

The 5 year allocations should come with a caveat that at anytime the Gov't can pull back and NOT with a 5 year "guarantee"...the outfitter only has to charge more for the tags he does get. His clients should understand that if his tags reduced from 5 to 3 that if they want that tag they got to ante up more. Supply and demand....

LC

Not a bad idea.

[Ryry4]

I hope if anything we as outfitters and guides get more allocations. Will the whining ever stop. I doudt it.

I doubt it. Pretty soon people will be saying the guy down the road that shoots a bigger white tail shouldn't be able to hunt because he's taking away some one else's opportunity.

[foothills26]

I hope if anything we as outfitters and guides get more allocations. Will the whining ever stop. I doudt it.

Might I ask why you feel that outfitters and guides should get more allocations?

[missingtwo]

Might i ask why any outfitter should get any allocations for species that take more than 3-5 years for a resident to draw?

[foothills26]

Might i ask why any outfitter should get any allocations for species that take more than 3-5 years for a resident to draw?

I agree about the 3-5 years ones but it is the 10+ year ones that really bother me.

[7 REM MAG]

The oil and gas industry in Alberta is feeding many Alberta families.
so is the outfitting industry, maybe not as much as the oil industry but then again the outfitting industry has an exponentially less gross revenue than the oil industry.
When we apply the anti outfitter contingents own logic to other resources such as oil and gas, I as a tax paying albertan(born and raised here) should have first crack at getting something from the oil industry. And because these resources are alberta's maybe we should ban anyone not born in alberta from benefitting from the oil industry in alberta.

The idea of alberta implementing a draw for non-residents also is a flawed ideal, either the province will lump non-residents into our draw system and being as the americans that do hunt up here are more likely upper middle class or upper class that can afford to apply for draws over and over again which will extend our own draw times more than they already are.Also these guys want to hunt here, if there is a chance to hunt here draw or not they're going to jump on it. Or the province will implement a non-res draw that will most likely be 5% of the annual harvest so the non residents are still hunting 5% of the animals(or what ever the current percentage is) the government will negotiate in 5 year terms because its a pain in the ass for them to take time out of their schedule to bicker back and forth about how many animals one group is allowed to hunt each year. If you were a government official and you could choose to do something that you don't want to do once a year or every five years what are you going to pick? Eventually with the yearly or 5 yearly negotiation there will be agreements at times of high populations and times of low populations thus not solving our problems.

The end result is that the only solution for this situation is to ban outfitting, which the government isnt going to do. whether apos is changed out or revamped isnt going to change things, yes there are bad apples in the apos ranks but there are also lots of good ones, like any group of businesses there are good ones and bad ones. Im not saying that its right but thats the way it is.

[Speckle55]

This system was put in place before Draws and should be scrapped

if there are draws then all people put in for said draws and some will be restricted to just Albertan's as per doing a survey of the 115 000 hunters in Alberta

if a Non -resident or Non-Resident Alien want to apply for some then they have to get thier draw just like everyone else then they have to find a outfitter

There should be No More Allocations if its on a Draw

IMHO

David:)

[sheephunter]

This system was put in place before Draws and should be scrapped



The system of allocating tags to outfitters came along long after the draws for residents.

[missingtwo]

my bad,

[missingtwo]

The system of allocating tags to outfitters came along long after the draws for residents.

It really doesn't matter when it came in. It is outdated. Time to change it.

[sheephunter]

It really doesn't matter when it came in. It is outdated. Time to change it.

I like the allocation system...I think it's designed really well....providing outfitters don't receive more than their allocated percentage. It allows them an opportunity to develop a long-term business plan and it should ensure that non-residents only receive a small percentage of the harvest.

[missingtwo]

This system was put in place before Draws and should be scrapped

if there are draws then all people put in for said draws and some will be restricted to just Albertan's as per doing a survey of the 115 000 hunters in Alberta

if a Non -resident or Non-Resident Alien want to apply for some then they have to get thier draw just like everyone else then they have to find a outfitter

There should be No More Allocations if its on a Draw

IMHO

David:)

David, you have it right.

[Dwils]

I am fine with non residents being able to come to alberta and hunt as hopefully soon (within the next 5 yrs) I hope to be able to afford guided hunts in other places. The problem I have is that and this has already been mentioned but as a resident I can't go on a guided hunt in my own province! I like the way some of the western states have it on a draw and when you get the draw you find an outfitter and you go and hunt. That system also makes it much more affordable. A bighorn sheep hunt in willmore is like $36k plus! Where if one is paitent you can apply for and hunt a bighorn in Montana or wyoming for easily less than $15k all in (that would include years worth of tag application costs also) The draw system is much better IMHO.

[missingtwo]

I like the allocation system...I think it's designed really well....providing outfitters don't receive more than their allocated percentage. It allows them an opportunity to develop a long-term business plan and it should ensure that non-residents only receive a small percentage of the harvest.

I don't understand what is to like about a system that allows a non-res to hunt a species every year and you and I have to wait upwards of 15 years to do the same.
Any general tags have at her. If its on a draw.... res only.

[sheephunter]

I don't understand what is to like about a system that allows a non-res to hunt a species every year and you and I have to wait upwards of 15 years to do the same.
Any general tags have at her. If its on a draw.... res only.

I could care less if one person buys the hunt ten years in a row or ten people buy the ten hunts as long as non-residents don't get more than their share of tags. Either way my opportunity is the same.

[jaylow?]

This system was put in place before Draws and should be scrapped

if there are draws then all people put in for said draws and some will be restricted to just Albertan's as per doing a survey of the 115 000 hunters in Alberta

if a Non -resident or Non-Resident Alien want to apply for some then they have to get thier draw just like everyone else then they have to find a outfitter

There should be No More Allocations if its on a Draw

IMHO

David:)


sounds good to me buddy!

[Speckle55]

The system of allocating tags to outfitters came along long after the draws for residents.

Which animals(antelope) were on draws when this allocation system started Sheephunter.. when did the allocation system start?

What happens in other states and provinces we are put on draws right ....then you get your outfitter

Moose wasn,t up here 438 etc,, Mule Deer up here wasn,t same,,

anyway they should do a survey of All Alberta Hunters and have a moratorium till its done..

David:)

[sheephunter]

Which animals(antelope) were on draws when this allocation system started Sheephunter.. when did the allocation system start?

What happens in other states and provinces we are put on draws right ....then you get your outfitter

Moose wasn,t up here 438 etc,, Mule Deer up here wasn,t same,,

anyway they should do a survey of All Alberta Hunters and have a moratorium till its done..

David:)

I'm sure there are lots of WMUs that weren't on draw at the time but there were lots for many species when allocations came in.

[Jamie]

I could care less if one person buys the hunt ten years in a row or ten people buy the ten hunts as long as non-residents don't get more than their share of tags. Either way my opportunity is the same.

BUT... Shouldnt you as a Albertain, get a shot at those tags? SHouldnt you be able to buy that tag if you wished?

Jamie

[Rhino81]

Might I ask why you feel that outfitters and guides should get more allocations? because I would like to buy them. Why not. Can't wait for next October for my Ohio white tail hunt. They don't seem to mind when we hunt down there.

[missingtwo]

I could care less if one person buys the hunt ten years in a row or ten people buy the ten hunts as long as non-residents don't get more than their share of tags. Either way my opportunity is the same.

You just don't get it. If there were no allocations for outfitters for the "draw" species your opportunity would be better.

[foothills26]

because I would like to buy them. Why not. Can't wait for next October for my Ohio white tail hunt. They don't seem to mind when we hunt down there.

As a resident you can't get those tags that are for non residents so I don't see how this would help you....

[sheephunter]

You just don't get it. If there were no allocations for outfitters for the "draw" species your opportunity would be better.

Actually I totally get it. Run the numbers and it really wouldn't change the draw stats much....providing the allocation percentage is adhered to. I doubt it would make a one year wait difference in most WMUs for most species.

[sheephunter]

BUT... Shouldnt you as a Albertain, get a shot at those tags? SHouldnt you be able to buy that tag if you wished?

Jamie

I kind of see that as a double-edged sword Jamie. I totally get what you are saying but I doubt it would placate any of the people on here that are up in arms over outfitters. You'd just have another rich guy jumping the que in their opinion. I'm surprised no one has challenged the constitutionality of the law though. It does descriminate against residents.

[Rhino81]

You just don't get it. If there were no allocations for outfitters for the "draw" species your opportunity would be better.im not sure you get it. Taking back 2 tags in one zone and 4 in another is rrreeeaaallllyyyy going to strengthen you draw percentage. It's the big picture some of you are not seeing. Selfish and greed is all I'm seeing from some of you.

[Rhino81]

As a resident you can't get those tags that are for non residents so I don't see how this would help you....
WTF ? As a outfitter I can buy them and sell them every year tod help the economy and help feed my family, buy my kids Christmas presents etc.

[Ryry4]

You just don't get it. If there were no allocations for outfitters for the "draw" species your opportunity would be better.

Do you actually think the number of hunters in the field would decrease?

[foothills26]

WTF ? As a outfitter I can buy them and sell them every year tod help the economy and help feed my family, buy my kids Christmas presents etc.

Sorry I did not get that you were an outfitter. So your only reasoning is personal gain. I understand better now

[foothills26]

Do you actually think the number of hunters in the field would decrease?

I don't really think that it was meant that the number of hunters in the field would decrease but that it would mean there was a few more tags (the ones previously allocated to outfitters) available to residents in the draw.

[Ryry4]

Sorry I did not get that you were an outfitter. So your only reasoning is personal gain. I understand better now

Much like the arguments from the anti-outfitters on here.

[foothills26]

Much like the arguments from the anti-outfitters on here.

I am an not anti-outfitter I just feel that the system needs to change. Residents should have an equal opportunity to all tags not some being held out for non-residents and those percentages are locked in for such a period of time where as the residents tags can severely decline at any year. I have no problems with outfitters I just don't feel the system is right and when someone's only reasoning is that they want more tags allocated to outfitters because they profit from it should not be a good reason for it to stay the way it is or even add more tags.

[missingtwo]

Actually I totally get it. Run the numbers and it really wouldn't change the draw stats much....providing the allocation percentage is adhered to. I doubt it would make a one year wait difference in most WMUs for most species.

Well, if you want to go by percentages. I could possibly get 1 more moose tag, in the zone I apply in, befor I may not be able to hunt anymore. That would make 3 tags for me, total. If non-resident allocations were pulled I could possibly get 1 more additional tag. 4 instead of 3. That is 33% more. Pretty big number.

[Team Anzac]

Well said Missing Two, its pretty sad when a resident of Alberta has to wait 4 years to get a moose draw in his own area that hes paid property taxes on for the last 20 years. Yet the outfitter gets to bring the same hunters year after year shooting moose that they have no intention of eating. Its all agame of racks to these people. That still doesn't even add the wounded animals that a are left for the coyoyes to clean up, Outfitters in my opinion are not about consrevation to them its all about lining their pockets.

[sheephunter]

I just don't feel the system is right and when someone's only reasoning is that they want more tags allocated to outfitters because they profit from it

I wouldn't pay too much attention to someone who is obviously just trying to stir the pot. I haven't heard an arguement here to give outfitters more than their allocated percentage...well other than the one you reference and who knows if he's even an outfitter or just some guy trying to, well you know...... There seems to be one in every crowd.

[Ryry4]

Well, if you want to go by percentages. I could possibly get 1 more moose tag, in the zone I apply in, befor I may not be able to hunt anymore. That would make 3 tags for me, total. If non-resident allocations were pulled I could possibly get 1 more additional tag. 4 instead of 3. That is 33% more. Pretty big number.

How many outfitter allocations are there in this zone?

[Ryry4]

Its all agame of racks to these people. That still doesn't even add the wounded animals that a are left for the coyoyes to clean up.

Residents have never wounded and lost an animal? I know Albertans that trophy hunt too.

[Ryry4]

I am an not anti-outfitter I just feel that the system needs to change. Residents should have an equal opportunity to all tags not some being held out for non-residents and those percentages are locked in for such a period of time where as the residents tags can severely decline at any year. I have no problems with outfitters I just don't feel the system is right and when someone's only reasoning is that they want more tags allocated to outfitters because they profit from it should not be a good reason for it to stay the way it is or even add more tags.

I agree, there shouldn't be an increase if the population can't handle it.

[Don K]

How are the mule deer, elk, pronghorn, and pheasant outfitters doing in Saskatchewan?

I'm sure they're all doing fine. They became plumbers...

[Deer Hunter]

Is there such a thing as a full time outfitter or is it a job to supplement another income?

[sheephunter]

Is there such a thing as a full time outfitter or is it a job to supplement another income?

Both.....

[Lefty-Canuck]

As was mentioned before....there is enough room and game to go around.

There are greedy residents, outfitters, and non-residents.

The thing that really concerns me is SRD will cut back on resident draws one year to the next based on bad winters/ population spikes/ etc...

So they will impose sanctions on the resident hunters.....whereas the Outfitters get to roll along business as usual for the next how ever many years they have left before a "reset".

I think the Gov't should allow for a reset of those numbers each year if it is required....

Personally I am ok if resident opportunity goes down 50% then cut outfitter tags by 50%.....I mean no one tells them what to charge for a hunt, they can just up the cost to their clients and make out close to the same.

As it stand now resident tag numbers can be cut and outfitters tag numbers will stay the same.....doesn't seem quite right.

People are willing to spend alot of money to come here to shoot a "Big Alberta Buck"

LC

[trophyboy]

Something is very wrong with this province when a resident who has payed exorbitant amounts of property taxes, etc. has to wait several years for a tag while outfitters continue to get a disproportionate number of tags. We residents get bent over at every turn.

We all know the mule deer numbers are very low in most WMUs, so honestly can the outfitters on here really justify their existence other than for personal financial gain at the expense of all of the resident hunters of Alberta who continue to have to wait several years for a tag. How are we as resident hunters supposed to be happy about that? If bow hunting goes on a draw doesn't that suggest an even more vulnerable mule deer population? What happens then? I would assume outfitters will get a disproportionate amount of tags there too. Alberta's population has grown significantly and our mule deer can't sustain all of the pressures we're putting on them...it simply can't. Residents should come first. If they want to auction off a few Minister's tags fine but that's where it should stop.

I'm simply getting tired of it all and I will be, for the first time in my life be buying my landowner tag starting next year and every year thereafter. I have until now never abused that right because I didn't agree with it, mainly due to poor numbers and to allow others to enjoy the resource, but from now on I will be killing a mule deer buck every year on my landowner's tag. Might as well kill them all since the outfitters are making money off of everyone else's land with the landowner getting nothing but grief from their mostly unethical behaviours and disrespect for the land and it's owners!

Sorry guys, just my humble, common sense opinion and besides someone has to stick up for what is right!

[sheephunter]

I totally get your frustration trophyboy but I'd guess that landowner tags have way more to do with resident wait times than non-resident tags. I know WB had some preliminary numbers for landowner tags and I was shocked at how many were given out in some WMUs. Enough that wait times could likely be cut in half if they didn't exist. Taking away non resident tags would do virtually nothing to reduce resident wait times in the draws but I get the fact that some don't like to see non-residents buy their way into a tag.......I'm just not sure how adding to the problem helps.

[Deer Hunter]

Landowners at least provide a benefit to residents where you would have a hard time finding a way outfitting benefits residents.

[sheephunter]

Landowners at least provide a benefit to residents where you would have a hard time finding a way outfitting benefits residents.

I wasn't really making a case for anything...just pointing out what the numbers say. If resident wait times really are the issue here then taking away non-resident tags aren't the solution. If that's not the issue......carry on.

[Pathfinder76]

Likely because residents are 95% of the harvest and outfitters are 5%...come on elk....it's pretty simple math. That 5% isnt going to have a significant effect on overall population in a year or two span...the 95%...well I'm sure you get it.


Are those numbers actually correct?

[sheephunter]

Are those numbers actually correct?

I suspect they vary right across the province and in some WMUs during some years they are much different. As an overall average I suspect they are fairly close but I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to point out exceptions.

Edit:
Sheep would be a lot different just because the outfitter allocation is higher.

[trigger7mm]

Why would the government allow APOS, who allows convicted criminals, and convicted poachers as members, to negotiate anything? APOS having a say, in this certainly won't benefit the Alberta hunting community.

Exactly! Well said.

[walking buffalo]

I totally get your frustration trophyboy but I'd guess that landowner tags have way more to do with resident wait times than non-resident tags. I know WB had some preliminary numbers for landowner tags and I was shocked at how many were given out in some WMUs. Enough that wait times could likely be cut in half if they didn't exist. Taking away non resident tags would do virtually nothing to reduce resident wait times in the draws but I get the fact that some don't like to see non-residents buy their way into a tag.......I'm just not sure how adding to the problem helps.



The same can said for Outfitter allocations in certain WMUs for certain secies.


I don't believe this has been brought up in this thread, yet. :)


Outfitter allocations should be capped by WMU, not by species management area.
At present, outfitter allocations can be significantly higher in a particular WMU than the alloted 10% based on management area. This can and does produce longer draw waiting times for residents.

And Landowner tags should also be limited to a percentage of all available licences.

It's time to stop managing hunters based on who can talk AF&W into the best deal for their particular group.

[elkhunter11]

Outfitter allocations should be capped by WMU, not by species management area.
At present, outfitter allocations can be significantly higher in a particular WMU than the alloted 10% based on management area. This can and does produce longer draw waiting times for residents.

Exactly, in some wmus, for some species, in some years, the outfitters held over 50% of the tags. In some cases, the outfitters held way more than 50% of the tags in a specific wmu, in some cases, in the range of 70% of all tags in that wmu.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=106127

[missingtwo]

I totally get your frustration trophyboy but I'd guess that landowner tags have way more to do with resident wait times than non-resident tags. I know WB had some preliminary numbers for landowner tags and I was shocked at how many were given out in some WMUs. Enough that wait times could likely be cut in half if they didn't exist. Taking away non resident tags would do virtually nothing to reduce resident wait times in the draws but I get the fact that some don't like to see non-residents buy their way into a tag.......I'm just not sure how adding to the problem helps.

Landowner tags are simple to rectify. Give 2 tags to each landowner. Make them non-trophy though.

[trainerdave]

This may be stirring up the pot but why do landowners get special tags if the population densities are low. I was under the understanding that these tags were for 'problem' numbers of wildlife affecting crop return etc. Before you jump down my throat I am a landowner and have never applied for a special tag. If the wildlife belong to the crown then aren't they the responsibility of us all ? This to me is also an irresponsible management of resources.

Because there are currently low mule deer numbers at our place I choose to manage them by not shooting one, even though I have a tag. That is an easy choice for me as it is not a buisness decision. It is a wildlife management decision. Would an outfitter with a client be less likely to do what many residents do-even when they are drawn- wait until numbers recover. There would be pressure to deliver on a contract per se so in a way they must harvest an animal or go out of buisness. That is why to me the discussion of tag allocation may not be an accurate guide to harvest as expectations are probably different by those who are residents vs. nr's or nra's. They pay and go away.

Debate is healthy-feel free to chime in as this is a big issue...

[sheephunter]

For what it's worth, I do know a couple outfitters that purposefully didn't book all the clients they could this year just because they felt there wasn't enough deer. In fact I think both booked around 50%.

[trainerdave]

That's good to know sheephunter... You obviously know a few who are willing to invest in their future .

[hal53]

For what it's worth, I do know a couple outfitters that purposefully didn't book all the clients they could this year just because they felt there wasn't enough deer. In fact I think both booked around 50%.
so...they can make their annual livelihood on a one month season with 1/2 their regular clients????, or is their outfitting business a little sideline, and to heck with the residents waiting forever???. I think it would make sense if the resident tags were cut by 50% (number only) that the allocation for that year be cut by the same amount, I realize it's a lot smaller number, but it might show that theoutfitters have some respect for the herds?

[sheephunter]

so...they can make their annual livelihood on a one month season with 1/2 their regular clients????, or is their outfitting business a little sideline, and to heck with the residents waiting forever???.

Either that or they just care about their reputation, their clents and wildlife in Alberta and were willing to take a cut in wages for a year or two....I guess there are lots of possibilities....it never donned on me to ask.

[hal53]

Either that or they just care about their reputation, their clents and wildlife in Alberta and were willing to take a cut in wages for a year or two....I guess there are lots of possibilities....it never donned on me to ask.
Be interesting to know, heard more than 1 over here this year complaining because their hunters weren't re-booking, one had a guy that was PO's because he hadn't seen a decent buck in 3 days, it was 4th year in a row up here.....nice fellow though, but I can understand his frustration....lots of $$$$, not much bling....

[sheephunter]

They did tell me they turned clients away.

[pikergolf]

Personally I could care less what any other jurisdiction does as far as non resident goes. The only people that are worried about retribution are those that go to other places. Our wildlife is under a lot of pressure and if it is on a draw in any given zone there should be zero non resident. Guys have figured out how to make some money doing something they love, good on them, but it's still a sideline and shouldn't be subsidized by the rest of Albertans through tags that should go to residents. The economic impact of non residents is also over stated and the economic impact of residents under stated. Most of the non res. money goes to one person, and I'm not interested in subsidizing their hobby.

[trainerdave]

.

[trainerdave]

Does anyone know the successful harvest % rates for residents. And do these numbers take in to account landowner permits. The harvest % on outfitter allocations? Plenty of work to be done on this one if actual harvest numbers are unknown. Somebody has to budge on this one until the numbers rebound or this could be a long road.

[lake side]

Might have something to do with APOS being the advocating group for outfitters. Yes, those nasty, nasty evil outfitters. Everybody's got to make a living, and I would bet they've got families to feed too.

:snapoutofit:


and drug dealers probably have family's too.....doesn't make it right.

Not on the same scale but if your a criminal then........


LS.

[Dadirk]

I know 3 outfitters in 148 and they have 7 allocations just between them 3 so right now I would say allocations are greater than resident tags. At one time I knew of 24 148 tags.

[stringer]

WTF ? As a outfitter I can buy them and sell them every year tod help the economy and help feed my family, buy my kids Christmas presents etc.

Get a real Job

[Ryry4]

I know 3 outfitters in 148 and they have 7 allocations just between them 3 so right now I would say allocations are greater than resident tags. At one time I knew of 24 148 tags.

How many resident tags this year? And is that 7 tags per outfitter or 7 total between the three?

[BuckHunterBowen]

Woe this took off

[ishootbambi]

mlost US states have it right for non res hunters. EVERYONE goes through the draw. its the only way to guarantee 5% for others as tag numbers fluctuate with populations. guides would still have work....doyle moss in utah proves that if you are good you have work. it would have the added benefit of getting rid of the vast majority of paid hunting in this province. im sure there would still be a few doing it though....the guy in wmu 300 comes to mind right quick.

[7 REM MAG]

do you really think that if residents were able to buy allocations they would? first off the outfitter wouldn't sell his hunt at a lesser value because the guy is a resident unless her was trying to sell his hunt last minute.
second why would an outfitter take a resident to an area that he makes a living off of hunting to tour the resident around and show him how to hunt there? doesn't make good business sense now does it. realistically is anyone on here gonna pay 35k for a wilmore sheep hunt or 4k+ for a deer hunt anywhere?

[Ryry4]

.the guy in wmu 300 comes to mind right quick.

Really this again? You do realize it was residents being complete bone heads that got that situation started to begin with right? Enough with the :sad0147::sad0147:already.

[ishootbambi]

Really this again? You do realize it was residents being complete bone heads that got that situation started to begin with right? Enough with the :sad0147::sad0147:already.

well at least you arent denying it goes on this time. so boneheads make it okay then huh? last time the answer was because he is a great guy......:rolleye2:

sorry ryry...thats illegal, and i wont just accept it for any reason. if you can justify it, well.....i dont even know what to say. :confused0024:

[Ryry4]

well at least you arent denying it goes on this time. so boneheads make it okay then huh? last time the answer was because he is a great guy......:rolleye2:

sorry ryry...thats illegal, and i wont just accept it for any reason. if you can justify it, well.....i dont even know what to say. :confused0024:

What's going on? Funny how nothing has been proved in a court of law. Yes all outfitters and guides are evil and horrible :sign0023::sign0023::sign0023:. And no one can shoot a big deer because of them. The rhetoric is old.

[missingtwo]

What's going on? Funny how nothing has been proved in a court of law. Yes all outfitters and guides are evil and horrible :sign0023::sign0023::sign0023:. And no one can shoot a big deer because of them. The rhetoric is old.

Not all of them, but there a few......

[sheephunter]

realistically is anyone on here gonna pay 35k for a wilmore sheep hunt

Likely not but I can see guys shelling out the cash for tags/hunts they'd otherwise have to draw....especially those with long wait tmes.

[ishootbambi]

You do realize it was residents being complete bone heads that got that situation started to begin with right? .

you said this...and 13 minutes later you change your mind with this....

What's going on?

funny....i wasnt specific but you knew EXACTLY what i was talking about. playing dumb in the next post is probably a better bet when the fish cops are patrolling this forum......no problem, ill let it go.....

[CNR]

Would you like the opportunity to hunt outside of Alberta one day? Like I said before everyone has to make a living. Does your employment benefit from anything outside of Alberta?


Can you tell me how many canadians have been drawn for desert sheep in the great U S of A? I've done a search and can't find any since they have been put on draw. Anyone I have asked can answer it... So where's the opportunity????

[sheephunter]

Can you tell me how many canadians have been drawn for desert sheep in the great U S of A? I've done a search and can't find any since they have been put on draw. Anyone I have asked can answer it... So where's the opportunity????

I apply for 17 permits in the U.S. each year and have drawn several over the years. Not a desert yet but I personally know at least 1/2 a dozen Canadians that have. There's actually a ton of opportunity down there for some great tags....just ask ryry....lol Canadians have exactly the same odds as any out of state non resident.

[CNR]

I was told Ryry was American the last time I asked the question.

[steve]

After were done bashing outfitters on here. We'd sure like to go book our dream hunt with a outfitter and beat a resident to that big critter.

[Icefisher2885]

How many resident tags this year? And is that 7 tags per outfitter or 7 total between the three?

There was 10 148 resident tags given out this year. Numbers like this are ridiculous.

On another funny note, I was watching the hunting channel today, can't remember what it was, but a guy shot a mule deer. Then he started talking about how in the past 3 years he has taken 3 mule bucks and 3 antelope bucks with his muzzie. It just doesn't seem right that a guy can take as many antelope in 3 year as we can take in close to 30.

[sheephunter]

I was told Ryry was American the last time I asked the question.

No idea but I suspect I still know a half dozen if he is. It's not like the draws are fixed down there. A non resident is a non resident whether from the U.S. or Canada.

[Lefty]

There was 10 148 resident tags given out this year. Numbers like this are ridiculous.

On another funny note, I was watching the hunting channel today, can't remember what it was, but a guy shot a mule deer. Then he started talking about how in the past 3 years he has taken 3 mule bucks and 3 antelope bucks with his muzzie. It just doesn't seem right that a guy can take as many antelope in 3 year as we can take in close to 30.

I agree with this post it doesn't seem right to me as well.

[missingtwo]

After were done bashing outfitters on here. We'd sure like to go book our dream hunt with a outfitter and beat a resident to that big critter.

I don't know if you realize it or not, but most are not bashing outfitters. They are bashing the system. I have no problem with outfitters working for a client to get his/her general tag animal. The problem most have is the outfitters are recieving allocations that residents have to draw for. That is my concern anyways.

[BuckHunterBowen]

What about when someone on here gets the north American grand slam and everyone tells him how great of a hunter he is and stuff. He hunted with outfitters to do that..not bashing him in the slightest way. Good fOr him. Killed a pile of great animals. But why did no One get mad...is it different when an albertan hunts with outfitters from a different province or state?
Outfitters and guides make it possible for us to hunt animals unavailable otherwise. What's wrong with that.

:party0051::budo:

[steve]

I don't know if you realize it or not, but most are not bashing outfitters. They are bashing the system. I have no problem with outfitters working for a client to get his/her general tag animal. The problem most have is the outfitters are recieving allocations that residents have to draw for. That is my concern anyways.

I read the whole thread and I do realize what is going on.

[elkhunter11]

Outfitters and guides make it possible for us to hunt animals unavailable otherwise. What's wrong with that.


It's wrong when an outfitter can take a non resident on a hunt for a specific species in a specific wmu every year, when an Alberta taxpayer has to wait several years to draw a tag to hunt that same animal in that same wmu, in his home province, where he pays his taxes every year.

[flyguyd]

It's wrong when an outfitter can take a non resident on a hunt for a specific species in a specific wmu every year, when an Alberta taxpayer has to wait several years to draw a tag to hunt that same animal in that same wmu, in his home province, where he pays his taxes every year.

X2

[missingtwo]

Doesn't matter how many times it is repeated. Some guys just don't get it.
And Steve, I'm guessin' yur an outfitter or guide?? No, don't answer, I'll just assume, than I'll understand your comment.

[steve]

Doesn't matter how many times it is repeated. Some guys just don't get it.
And Steve, I'm guessin' yur an outfitter or guide?? No, don't answer, I'll just assume, than I'll understand your comment.

You know what happens when you assume?

[albertadave]

I like the allocation system...I think it's designed really well....providing outfitters don't receive more than their allocated percentage. It allows them an opportunity to develop a long-term business plan and it should ensure that non-residents only receive a small percentage of the harvest.

I don't. And I could care less about their long term business plan (most of them are only operating as a side line anyway, as already stated). I have no problem what-so-ever with the outfitting industry in theory, but the 5 year allocation system is pure crap. It would be so simple to make 5% of the tags in any given draw available to non-residents only, then when their name comes up in the cue (after they wait their turn like us residents), they go out and hire the outfitter of their choice. Then you wouldn't have outfitters holding a disproportionate number of tags on years when license numbers get cut back. Nothing wrong with the outfitters having to compete for the business year to year. Also, if an outfitter didn't know from year to year precisely which areas he would be operating in, a system like this might eliminate some of the "paying landowers to tie up access" that we all know is going on? (This would just be a little added bonus that occured to me as I was reading this thread)

[packhuntr]

Again we watch residents in fighting over scraps of resources that have been managed/ran like the world is gonna end in 2014. There would be zero issues and guys would miraculously have nothing to bit*h about if people would focus thier energy toward SRD and demand the job that hasnt been getting done, start gettin done!!! Healthy herd management, why are guys not demanding this. Typical joe boy bs, guys with no clue will spend all time and energy fighting over afew crumbs of bread instead of gettin it on and gettin it going. Have fun with your bullsh&t fight that goes nowhere and makes NO DIFFERENCE for wildlife or anyone that wishes to enjoy it in the future! For Fock sakes guys!

[jaylow?]

hey , if you guys dont stop fighting the anti-hunting groups will win...and if you stop spending the terrorists win. same theroy right? :lol:

there must be some special invisible court of the land that monitors the different sides of issues websites and makes legal decisons based on internet chatter on who-gives-a-craps web site.

if this sounds stupid , its because it is. most of these arguments are trivial but its good to hear both sides. the whole idea and throwing out the " other side will win " thing is akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and saying " i cant hear you!, i cant hear you"

[Deer Hunter]

Future generations are going to have it pretty tough here in Alberta. The land where financial greed prevails over all else.

[7 REM MAG]

for those guys that think outfitters never lose their allocations, when the cwd outbreak was first confirmed and the province started culling deer there were 2 outfitters that i know personally that lost ALL their deer allocations in some of the hot zones along the border, the government has the ability in crisis situations to revoke outfitter allocations and they have with the deer in 07ish and with moose allocations 10 or so years ago up north, dont sit there thinking that nothing is done, what about all the resident hunters that hunt mule deer in the 100 zones in archery season on general tags and the outfitter is still very limited to the number of allocations that he can have? maybe they should give up some rifle tags and double their archery tags? seems fair by the resounding logic on this board, right? You can bicker amongst yourselves all you want but heres some factual numbers for you, 7-10 years ago the hunting and fishing industry was the top 3rd industry bringing money into alberta next to oil/gas and forestry, now lets think for a second. say theres 500 whitetail hunts sold to non-resident hunters in alberta every year, at 4k a piece thats $2,000,000. add into that the money that non-residents pay in hotel fees, and such while they're here and you're probably at around $2,250,000 for whitetail hunts in november. Now look at waterfowl hunts, lets say that theres 2500 waterfowl hunts sold in alberta which is most likely about 1/3 or 1/4 of whats actually sold at $3000/hunt and thats $7,500,000 dollars just in hunts add in the hotel and such and we'll round it up to $8,000,000. Now simple addition tells me that thats over 10 MILLION dollars brought into this province just on whitetail and waterfowl hunts, which are on the less expensive side of purchasable hunts in this province, look at sheep hunts at 20-35k/hunt and moose,elk,antelope,mule deer,bear and cougar hunts all bringing in a premium dollar and the gross revenue brought into this province yearly from the evil non-resident hunters that are being guided is the range of 100 million plus dollars every year. This is all money that stays in alberta, its paid to guides who buy groceries with it, pay their kids school fees and support their families with that money. So if you want to battle for a more "fair" distribution of resources remember that its a 2 way street where in some areas the outfitters have more than what they should but remember that theres areas that with a new split there will be areas with more NRA allocations and that by the logic of the majority of a 5% share the outfitters should have had access to these allocations years ago, thus giving them grounds to seek restitution for the resources that were withheld from them. Also remember that outfitters are to have no more than 10% of the species harvest per wmu, this has been negotiated to 5% avg because of current animal densities, however by the agreement between the government and the outfitters they are entitled to 10, which means that theyre now at an average of about half what they could have. Also dont forgot that there are areas up north where outfitters used to take in the neighbourhood of 80% of the bears due to lack of resident hunting.
So by all means push for change and try to limit what the outfitters can have, but remember that the outfitters are now operating at a fraction of what they've been entitled to and could very well push for what they've been granted by the government. also dont forgot that theyre are areas that the outfitters run 2-3 hunts a year in areas that are still general for residents. Be careful what you wish for as it may come back and bite you in the arse

[Deer Hunter]

You can bicker amongst yourselves all you want but heres some factual numbers for you, 7-10 years ago the hunting and fishing industry was the top 3rd industry bringing money into alberta next to oil/gas and forestry, now lets think for a second.

Please post a link to where you came up with this "factual" stat. thanks!

[whitetail Junkie]

for those guys that think outfitters never lose their allocations, when the cwd outbreak was first confirmed and the province started culling deer there were 2 outfitters that i know personally that lost ALL their deer allocations in some of the hot zones along the border, the government has the ability in crisis situations to revoke outfitter allocations and they have with the deer in 07ish and with moose allocations 10 or so years ago up north, dont sit there thinking that nothing is done, what about all the resident hunters that hunt mule deer in the 100 zones in archery season on general tags and the outfitter is still very limited to the number of allocations that he can have? maybe they should give up some rifle tags and double their archery tags? seems fair by the resounding logic on this board, right? You can bicker amongst yourselves all you want but heres some factual numbers for you, 7-10 years ago the hunting and fishing industry was the top 3rd industry bringing money into alberta next to oil/gas and forestry, now lets think for a second. say theres 500 whitetail hunts sold to non-resident hunters in alberta every year, at 4k a piece thats $2,000,000. add into that the money that non-residents pay in hotel fees, and such while they're here and you're probably at around $2,250,000 for whitetail hunts in november. Now look at waterfowl hunts, lets say that theres 2500 waterfowl hunts sold in alberta which is most likely about 1/3 or 1/4 of whats actually sold at $3000/hunt and thats $7,500,000 dollars just in hunts add in the hotel and such and we'll round it up to $8,000,000. Now simple addition tells me that thats over 10 MILLION dollars brought into this province just on whitetail and waterfowl hunts, which are on the less expensive side of purchasable hunts in this province, look at sheep hunts at 20-35k/hunt and moose,elk,antelope,mule deer,bear and cougar hunts all bringing in a premium dollar and the gross revenue brought into this province yearly from the evil non-resident hunters that are being guided is the range of 100 million plus dollars every year. This is all money that stays in alberta, its paid to guides who buy groceries with it, pay their kids school fees and support their families with that money. So if you want to battle for a more "fair" distribution of resources remember that its a 2 way street where in some areas the outfitters have more than what they should but remember that theres areas that with a new split there will be areas with more NRA allocations and that by the logic of the majority of a 5% share the outfitters should have had access to these allocations years ago, thus giving them grounds to seek restitution for the resources that were withheld from them. Also remember that outfitters are to have no more than 10% of the species harvest per wmu, this has been negotiated to 5% avg because of current animal densities, however by the agreement between the government and the outfitters they are entitled to 10, which means that theyre now at an average of about half what they could have. Also dont forgot that there are areas up north where outfitters used to take in the neighbourhood of 80% of the bears due to lack of resident hunting.
So by all means push for change and try to limit what the outfitters can have, but remember that the outfitters are now operating at a fraction of what they've been entitled to and could very well push for what they've been granted by the government. also dont forgot that theyre are areas that the outfitters run 2-3 hunts a year in areas that are still general for residents. Be careful what you wish for as it may come back and bite you in the arse

one of the bigger Alberta outfitters had muledeer allocations in the cwd wmus,and he was allowed to use those Allocations in other non cwd wmus when the outbreak first hit.In 2012 wmu's 132,134,136,138,140,142 only gave out 5 mule buck tags per wmu to Alberta/canadian resident hunters.There are outfitters who have mulebuck allocations in these 6 wmu's.These are hard numbers/facts.

would you care to enlighten us on why outfiiter allocations For mule buck in these 6 wmus shouldnt be reduced over the next 5 years?

[Rhino81]

Please post a link to where you came up with this "factual" stat. thanks! x2 I would think tourism would be up there, along with professional sports.

[ishootbambi]

Please post a link to where you came up with this "factual" stat. thanks!

there is a bucnh of flat out false statements in that post but that one is a doozie. if guys are gonna just start flinging BS out of the sky, i reckon this discussion is done.

[grinr]

$100M in hunting revenue is (was?)3rd most valuable industry in AB???......are you for real? :confused:

So hunting is bigger than cattle,farming,beer sales,tourism,NHL hockey,Stampede,skiing......hell even CFL probably brings $100M into the AB economy annually.....give yer head a shake man. :snapoutofit:

[sheephunter]

there is a bucnh of flat out false statements in that post but that one is a doozie. if guys are gonna just start flinging BS out of the sky, i reckon this discussion is done.

I imagine if you threw resident spending in there it might be true. I've seen some very impressive numbers in that regard but I can't see the non-resident outfitting being larger than agriculture, tourism, etc

[grinr]

I've got nothing against outfitters,hell I've worked in the industry myself,and I don't even think that 5-10% of the available tags being allocated to them is unreasonable,but when the total number of tags are reduced as a conservation measure,it's only fair that the allocations are also reduced accordingly.
This whole argument that outfitters need Xamount of tags gauranteed in order to operate a successful business is just pure BS.As mentioned previously in several posts,most western states and many provinces have successful outfitting operations that book clients AFTER they draw successfully.There's no reason on earth that AB outfitters with allocations can't book hunts business as usual at the trade shows in March and make their clients aware at the time of booking that there is a "possibility" that they "might" get bumped if SRD decides to reduce tags that year.First come/first serve,book early to avoid disappointment.

[7 REM MAG]

unfortunately this discussion was over before it began, go ahead push for your changes and see where it gets you, i guess probably not much further ahead than you are now, the general community on here is so intent on fighting with each other that i am now realizing that the hunting community will be its own demise. have at er boys, take what you can while you can, its the albertan way, as is also well demonstrated on this board

[sheephunter]

As mentioned previously in several posts,most western states and many provinces have successful outfitting operations that book clients AFTER they draw successfully..

I'm unaware of a single province or territory in Canada that offers non-resident alien draws. If there is, there definitely isn't "many". Can you name one?

[grinr]

I'm unaware of a single province or territory in Canada that offers non-resident alien draws. If there is, there definitely isn't "many". Can you name one?

New Brunswick for one offers 100 NR moose tags annually and receives $50 bucks/head in application fees from the 2000 NR applicants that compete for them.If successful in drawing a tag with only a 1:20 chance of doing so,the client then books with an outfitter/guide.
Black bear hunting is the bread and butter big game for most NB outfits since the deer hunting has gone to total chit since the 80's,and most established outfits have black bear allocations,however non-res can also apply on their own and book a guide afterwards,or quite often buy non-res bear tags over the counter for undersubscribed zones,which is what my hunters did when I was starting up.

[sheephunter]

New Brunswick for one offers 100 NR moose tags annually and receives $50 bucks/head in application fees from the 2000 NR applicants that compete for them.If successful in drawing a tag with only a 1:20 chance of doing so,the client then books with an outfitter/guide.
Black bear hunting is the bread and butter big game for most NB outfits since the deer hunting has gone to total chit since the 80's,and most established outfits have black bear allocations,however non-res can also apply on their own and book a guide afterwards,or quite often buy non-res bear tags over the counter for undersubscribed zones,which is what my hunters did when I was starting up.

I wasn't aware of that thanks...so that's one isolated example......where's the many?

[missingtwo]

I'm unaware of a single province or territory in Canada that offers non-resident alien draws. If there is, there definitely isn't "many". Can you name one?

You asked him to name one. He did. He actually named 2, black bear and moose.

[sheephunter]

You asked him to name one. He did.

And I thanked him for that :)

Now I'm asking about the many he stated. :)

I just went to the NB website and learned something thanks to the post by grinr....it's a good day. Hopefully I can learn more by my secondary question. :) I could only find info on the moose draw in NB....no other species.

I'm not sure you can draw the conclusion grinr was from one isolated case but as I said, if there are more, I'm pleased to learn.

[pikergolf]

for those guys that think outfitters never lose their allocations, when the cwd outbreak was first confirmed and the province started culling deer there were 2 outfitters that i know personally that lost ALL their deer allocations in some of the hot zones along the border, the government has the ability in crisis situations to revoke outfitter allocations and they have with the deer in 07ish and with moose allocations 10 or so years ago up north, dont sit there thinking that nothing is done, what about all the resident hunters that hunt mule deer in the 100 zones in archery season on general tags and the outfitter is still very limited to the number of allocations that he can have? maybe they should give up some rifle tags and double their archery tags? seems fair by the resounding logic on this board, right? You can bicker amongst yourselves all you want but heres some factual numbers for you, 7-10 years ago the hunting and fishing industry was the top 3rd industry bringing money into alberta next to oil/gas and forestry, now lets think for a second. say theres 500 whitetail hunts sold to non-resident hunters in alberta every year, at 4k a piece thats $2,000,000. add into that the money that non-residents pay in hotel fees, and such while they're here and you're probably at around $2,250,000 for whitetail hunts in november. Now look at waterfowl hunts, lets say that theres 2500 waterfowl hunts sold in alberta which is most likely about 1/3 or 1/4 of whats actually sold at $3000/hunt and thats $7,500,000 dollars just in hunts add in the hotel and such and we'll round it up to $8,000,000. Now simple addition tells me that thats over 10 MILLION dollars brought into this province just on whitetail and waterfowl hunts, which are on the less expensive side of purchasable hunts in this province, look at sheep hunts at 20-35k/hunt and moose,elk,antelope,mule deer,bear and cougar hunts all bringing in a premium dollar and the gross revenue brought into this province yearly from the evil non-resident hunters that are being guided is the range of 100 million plus dollars every year. This is all money that stays in alberta, its paid to guides who buy groceries with it, pay their kids school fees and support their families with that money. So if you want to battle for a more "fair" distribution of resources remember that its a 2 way street where in some areas the outfitters have more than what they should but remember that theres areas that with a new split there will be areas with more NRA allocations and that by the logic of the majority of a 5% share the outfitters should have had access to these allocations years ago, thus giving them grounds to seek restitution for the resources that were withheld from them. Also remember that outfitters are to have no more than 10% of the species harvest per wmu, this has been negotiated to 5% avg because of current animal densities, however by the agreement between the government and the outfitters they are entitled to 10, which means that theyre now at an average of about half what they could have. Also dont forgot that there are areas up north where outfitters used to take in the neighbourhood of 80% of the bears due to lack of resident hunting.
So by all means push for change and try to limit what the outfitters can have, but remember that the outfitters are now operating at a fraction of what they've been entitled to and could very well push for what they've been granted by the government. also dont forgot that theyre are areas that the outfitters run 2-3 hunts a year in areas that are still general for residents. Be careful what you wish for as it may come back and bite you in the arse

A link would be nice but it's not going to happen, as your numbers are, well, skewed. As I've stated before money should not be the end all, be all. If it was we could just lock out residents altogether and give the rest of the world the Alberta experience. Sadly in this province money is the driving factor, why else would we have hunts for a non-res. while a res. sits out. I'm guessing your an outfitter or work or know someone in the field. I'm not interested in the money you bring in, I think Alberta would do better without you in the draw zones. My opinion, but I'm sure it's shared by many others.

[bruceba]

for those guys that think outfitters never lose their allocations, when the cwd outbreak was first confirmed and the province started culling deer there were 2 outfitters that i know personally that lost ALL their deer allocations in some of the hot zones along the border, the government has the ability in crisis situations to revoke outfitter allocations and they have with the deer in 07ish and with moose allocations 10 or so years ago up north, dont sit there thinking that nothing is done, what about all the resident hunters that hunt mule deer in the 100 zones

Now you can corrct me if I'm wrong but I believe that the outfitters that lost moose allocations had them replaced with allocations for other spiecies.
If I recall correctly they got Muley allocations in was it 305, which put that percentage of resident verse outfitter tags way out to lunch.

[missingtwo]

And I thanked him for that :)

Now I'm asking about the many he stated. :)

I just went to the NB website and learned something thanks to the post by grinr....it's a good day. Hopefully I can learn more by my secondary question. :) I could only find info on the moose draw in NB....no other species.

I'm not sure you can draw the conclusion grinr was from one isolated case but as I said, if there are more, I'm pleased to learn.

No explanation needed. Just pointing out that he answered what you wanted.

[sheephunter]

No explanation needed. Just pointing out that he answered what you wanted.

No need to point it out. I was well aware of it......That's why I said thank you to him :)

I was just following with a second question in the hopes of learning more. :)

[cougar bait]

One zone that i know the facts about.
2011-104 tags 8 nra 5% would have been 5.2 tags.
2010-136 tags-8 nra 5% would have been 6.8 tags
2009-161 tags 8 nra 5% would have been 8 tags
2008-377 tags 8 nra 5% would have been 18.9 tags
2007-211 tags 8 nra 5% would have been 10.6 tags
If you go off 5% then over the last 5 years the outfitter would have gotten about 50 tags. But in reality he only got 40 tags. So yes the last 2 years he got 3 more tags then he should have, but what about the 3 years before that, when all of us residents got drawn every time we put in and he never had any changes? I dont like not being able to hunt mule deer everyear better than anyone else, but i would way rather wait longer and have a chance to shoot a big deer, then hunt dinks everyear!!!!
That does not take into account all the landowner tags. I know for a fact that there is over 8 landowner tags given out in this zone.
So you guys need to look at all the numbers before you start whinning, 40 instead of 50, sounds like us residents made out good!

[missingtwo]

dt.

[missingtwo]

One zone that i know the facts about.
2011-104 tags 8 nra 5% would have been 5.2 tags.
2010-136 tags-8 nra 5% would have been 6.8 tags
2009-161 tags 8 nra 5% would have been 8 tags
2008-377 tags 8 nra 5% would have been 18.9 tags
2007-211 tags 8 nra 5% would have been 10.6 tags
If you go off 5% then over the last 5 years the outfitter would have gotten about 50 tags. But in reality he only got 40 tags. So yes the last 2 years he got 3 more tags then he should have, but what about the 3 years before that, when all of us residents got drawn every time we put in and he never had any changes? I dont like not being able to hunt mule deer everyear better than anyone else, but i would way rather wait longer and have a chance to shoot a big deer, then hunt dinks everyear!!!!
That does not take into account all the landowner tags. I know for a fact that there is over 8 landowner tags given out in this zone.
So you guys need to look at all the numbers before you start whinning, 40 instead of 50, sounds like us residents made out good!

AGAIN. It's not the fact that sometimes outfitters get more or less tags. It's the fact they get any tags at all when residents have to draw. 0 is the number I am looking for. Non-res can hunt any general tag they want. That gives them WTD, Elk, Black bear, Sheep, Wolf, Cougar, Archery mule deer. (until next year).

[CBintheNorth]

One zone that i know the facts about.
2011-104 tags 8 nra 5% would have been 5.2 tags.
2010-136 tags-8 nra 5% would have been 6.8 tags
2009-161 tags 8 nra 5% would have been 8 tags
2008-377 tags 8 nra 5% would have been 18.9 tags
2007-211 tags 8 nra 5% would have been 10.6 tags
If you go off 5% then over the last 5 years the outfitter would have gotten about 50 tags. But in reality he only got 40 tags. So yes the last 2 years he got 3 more tags then he should have, but what about the 3 years before that, when all of us residents got drawn every time we put in and he never had any changes? I dont like not being able to hunt mule deer everyear better than anyone else, but i would way rather wait longer and have a chance to shoot a big deer, then hunt dinks everyear!!!!
That does not take into account all the landowner tags. I know for a fact that there is over 8 landowner tags given out in this zone.
So you guys need to look at all the numbers before you start whinning, 40 instead of 50, sounds like us residents made out good!

it sounds like the current model is working perfectly for that zone.
Most people are concerned with zones where they're resident application has a 0% chance of being drawn for three,five or even 7 years.

[Dick284]

Isn't the percentage based province wide not by each zone?

[CBintheNorth]

The percentage is based province wide not by each zone.

The stats he posted are for one zone.

[sheephunter]

The percentage is based province wide not by each zone.

Not for draw species it's not....for general tags that's likely true though.

There are definitely some WMUs that need to adjusted though.

[bruceba]

10 or 12 years ago it was 10% per WMU then it got changed to say 10% per species province wide. Thats how they got away with close to 35% of the Mulie draw tags in 305 several years back.

[grinr]

I wasn't aware of that thanks...so that's one isolated example......where's the many?

I don't know the regs for every province,but I know non-res can hunt moose unguided in QU every year or two,pretty sure(?)I could apply for NF moose and go with hunter host or hire guide,same in ON.....so there's a few more examples,thas all I goT for now?.:thinking-006:

[grinr]

Can apply for moose in Maine and NH also and book after drawing,so that's two more that I know of?In fact it seems that just about every neighbouring province/state that I've ever been familiar with regs it's allowed?

[packhuntr]

AGAIN. It's not the fact that sometimes outfitters get more or less tags. It's the fact they get any tags at all when residents have to draw. 0 is the number I am looking for. Non-res can hunt any general tag they want. That gives them WTD, Elk, Black bear, Sheep, Wolf, Cougar, Archery mule deer. (until next year).

You need to snap out of it slim. You are a lost ship at sea. There is nothing wrong with the existence of hunting opportunity in ab. There is a problem with attitudes like yours. I was a stupid uneducated hack with the same ideas before opening my eyes. Stop being selfish, your life will be better for it. One more thing, i bout would bet your incompetent and ineffective in the field. Focus on what your doing, seriously,, enjoy some successes and it will be natural evolution to want to see others enjoy it as well. Focus your energy towards healthy fisheries and wildlife utilization instead of like the rest of the residents,,, blindly following srd in belief that killing EVERYTHING that walks or swims is great, and there would COMFORTABLY be resources for all to enjoy!! I appologise for sounding rash, but after 6 pages of bullsh&t am in firm belief that guys with thier heads seated this far up thier azzes will understand nothing but pure painful truth

[packhuntr]

Im blown away that this is even a topic of conversation when this is a managed situation. The issues are not even so much as mentioned or cared about. Either the concept of having healthy wildlife management is completely foreign to guys, or the ones doing the talkin dont have a red sniff and are made up of good time joes that if not for alberta outdoorsmen would forget to do something as simple as apply for draws before deadline close... Why are real issues of no concern with resident hunters?

[bruceba]

My mistake on the 305 percentage and before anybody could say where did I get the info,google was my friend. :innocent:

Statistics for 2004 ( i know that's 6 years ago but these stats don't change much for 6 years) Gave outfitter allocations for mule deer ranging from 13-18percent (wmu's 300, 302, 400 and 402) to 23 percent (wmu 305 in the porcupine hills).

[missingtwo]

You need to snap out of it slim. You are a lost ship at sea. There is nothing wrong with the existence of hunting opportunity in ab. There is a problem with attitudes like yours. I was a stupid uneducated hack with the same ideas before opening my eyes. Stop being selfish, your life will be better for it. One more thing, i bout would bet your incompetent and ineffective in the field. Focus on what your doing, seriously,, enjoy some successes and it will be natural evolution to want to see others enjoy it as well. Focus your energy towards healthy fisheries and wildlife utilization instead of like the rest of the residents,,, blindly following srd in belief that killing EVERYTHING that walks or swims is great, and there would COMFORTABLY be resources for all to enjoy!! I appologise for sounding rash, but after 6 pages of bullsh&t am in firm belief that guys with thier heads seated this far up thier azzes will understand nothing but pure painful truth

This post brought you from your freindly resident outfitter/guide.
Sorry to disappoint you Mr. Pack, but I am allowed my opinion, even though you don't agree with it.

Thanks for the pleasant exchange. Have a nice x-mas

[Salavee]

Like!:)

x2
Don't worry about the Outfitterrs making a living. Most do OK with thier day jobs

[sheephunter]

Can apply for moose in Maine and NH also and book after drawing,so that's two more that I know of?In fact it seems that just about every neighbouring province/state that I've ever been familiar with regs it's allowed?

Last time I checked they weren't part of Canada ;) So what neighbouring provinces allow it?


There's definitely lots of states that operate that way.....I was just unaware of any provinces but as you pointed out there is one case for one species. I know of no additional ones.

[sheephunter]

I don't know the regs for every province,but I know non-res can hunt moose unguided in QU every year or two,pretty sure(?)I could apply for NF moose and go with hunter host or hire guide,same in ON.....so there's a few more examples,thas all I goT for now?.:thinking-006:

Sorry no...from NFLD regs.....Non-resident big game licences are only available through licensed outfitters.

From Ontario regs.....Non-resident hunters who wish to hunt moose in Ontario must have valid hunting accreditation from another state or province and be a registered guest and accommodated at an outfitter authorized to issue non-resident moose validations tags.

My french is a bit rusty so I'll have to say I don't know on that one.

[FCLightning]

How many other provinces allow non-residents to hunt anything that is on a draw? Sask does not.

[FCLightning]

Sorry no...from NFLD regs.....Non-resident big game licences are only available through licensed outfitters.

From Ontario regs.....Non-resident hunters who wish to hunt moose in Ontario must have valid hunting accreditation from another state or province and be a registered guest and accommodated at an outfitter authorized to issue non-resident moose validations tags.

My french is a bit rusty so I'll have to say I don't know on that one.

The way I read the Ontario regs you need to apply through the draw process if you want to hunt moose - if you are hunting with a relative you apply yourself, if you are hunting on land you own (non-resident landowner) you apply yourself, if you are hunting with an outfitter the outfitter applies on your behalf - but you must still be drawn for a tag. This only applies if the particular area actually has a non-res season - not all of Ontario allows for non-resident hunting of moose.
The only other draw they have is for elk and non-residents have no opportunity to hunt them.

[missingtwo]

You need to snap out of it slim. You are a lost ship at sea. There is nothing wrong with the existence of hunting opportunity in ab. There is a problem with attitudes like yours. I was a stupid uneducated hack with the same ideas before opening my eyes. Stop being selfish, your life will be better for it. One more thing, i bout would bet your incompetent and ineffective in the field. Focus on what your doing, seriously,, enjoy some successes and it will be natural evolution to want to see others enjoy it as well. Focus your energy towards healthy fisheries and wildlife utilization instead of like the rest of the residents,,, blindly following srd in belief that killing EVERYTHING that walks or swims is great, and there would COMFORTABLY be resources for all to enjoy!! I appologise for sounding rash, but after 6 pages of bullsh&t am in firm belief that guys with thier heads seated this far up thier azzes will understand nothing but pure painful truth

I will start a poll to see if my ass is up my behind. Please take part as you, and maybe a few other outfitters on this site may be the only votes in your favor.

** edit** sorry, don't know how to do one of those polls. Maybe someone with more experience on the forum can instruct me???

[Salavee]

The system of allocating tags to outfitters came along long after the draws for residents.

??? When did we have the first resident draws ? I really don't recall resident draws ( Moose,Mule Deer, ) prior to Outfitter allocations for same being initiated in the 80's

[hal53]

??? When did we have the first resident draws ? I really don't recall resident draws ( Moose,Mule Deer, ) prior to Outfitter allocations for same being initiated in the 80's
I may be wrong, but it started in the 80's boom, seasons were cut back, a lot of General seasons went to draw, cut funding to SRD, APOS got involved, over a period of time , it morphed into what we have now, outfitters clients hunt every year, we sit and wait many years, know why????...you guys would rather type volumes on here, than e-mail, phone, write a letter? to someone who has a chance in hell of changing something...all good thoughts, but you're preaching to the choir fellas!!! get involved!!!!

[Salavee]

Not so sure you're correct on our non-involvement Hal. Many of us have been on this for quite some time. It's pretty tough when we have the Fox guarding the Henhouse.

[hal53]

Not so sure you're correct on our non-involvement Hal. Many of us have been on this for quite some time. It's pretty tough when we have the Fox guarding the Henhouse.
I am just saying, the time that has made this thread go on for 6 pages , may have been better invested in voicing your/our concerns to people that can make changes, it ain't gonna get fixed here..

[sheephunter]

How many other provinces allow non-residents to hunt anything that is on a draw? Sask does not.

BC, Ontario, Quebec and New Brunswick for sure.

[sheephunter]

??? When did we have the first resident draws ? I really don't recall resident draws ( Moose,Mule Deer, ) prior to Outfitter allocations for same being initiated in the 80's

You could be right for those species...unquestionably there are hundreds more draws now for residents than when allocations first came in.

[sheephunter]

For those enamoured with the U.S. system of non residents having to draw tags, let's not forget there is another side to the coin....landowner tags that can be sold to the highest bidder. We've been down that road once already.....

[Salavee]

No, it won't get fixed here, that's for sure. Lotsa frustrations being vented on this thread. Recreational hunters don't have much of a lobby when it comes to changing flawed legislation and management practices.

[packhuntr]

BC, Ontario, Quebec and New Brunswick for sure.

Ya its super. I think so anyways. One day i may be in a position to go do a hunt in one of these places. I have dreamed of hunting mountain goat since i was a boy. Sure hope those BC boys enjoyed thier pronghorn hunts,,, the few that ab outfitters can provide. They can reciprocate by keeping thier more ignorant and selfish residents at bay and maintain a small handful of tags so guys like us here can enjoy thier outdoor experiences as well.

[albertadave]

For those enamoured with the U.S. system of non residents having to draw tags, let's not forget there is another side to the coin....landowner tags that can be sold to the highest bidder. We've been down that road once already.....

Are you saying that we can't have one (NR draws) without the other (Landowner tags for sale)?

[missingtwo]

I apply for 17 permits in the U.S. each year and have drawn several over the years. Not a desert yet but I personally know at least 1/2 a dozen Canadians that have. There's actually a ton of opportunity down there for some great tags....just ask ryry....lol Canadians have exactly the same odds as any out of state non resident.

For those enamoured with the U.S. system of non residents having to draw tags, let's not forget there is another side to the coin....landowner tags that can be sold to the highest bidder. We've been down that road once already.....

hmmm?

[sheephunter]

Are you saying that we can't have one (NR draws) without the other (Landowner tags for sale)?

Not saying anything...just bringing some info to the discussion.

[sheephunter]

hmmm?

You making a point or just clearing your throat?

[albertadave]

Not saying anything...just bringing some info to the discussion.

Can you elaborate please? Are you suggesting that if we went to a system where NR have to draw a tag that we would somehow have to end up with landowners auctioning off tags? Not trying to start anything here, I'm geuinely interested, and confused lol.

[pikergolf]

Not saying anything...just bringing some info to the discussion.

Sounds like your trying to tie them together, why even bring it up?

[missingtwo]

Ya its super. I think so anyways. One day i may be in a position to go do a hunt in one of these places. I have dreamed of hunting mountain goat since i was a boy. Sure hope those BC boys enjoyed thier pronghorn hunts,,, the few that ab outfitters can provide. They can reciprocate by keeping thier more ignorant and selfish residents at bay and maintain a small handful of tags so guys like us here can enjoy thier outdoor experiences as well.

Well, if those provinces ever get their collectives heads out of their behinds, by the time you're in position to hunt in one of those places you will be able to hunt any species with a general season. If your really lucky maybe goats in B.C. will be a general tag. Good luck.

[sheephunter]

Can you elaborate please? Are you suggesting that if we went to a system where NR have to draw a tag that we would somehow have to end up with landowners auctioning off tags? Not trying to start anything here, I'm geuinely interested, and confused lol.

Just explaing how it works in the U.S. A few people pointed to that system as a good one...just explaining the entire system.

[mad mountain mike]

The way I read the Ontario regs you need to apply through the draw process if you want to hunt moose - if you are hunting with a relative you apply yourself, if you are hunting on land you own (non-resident landowner) you apply yourself, if you are hunting with an outfitter the outfitter applies on your behalf - but you must still be drawn for a tag. This only applies if the particular area actually has a non-res season - not all of Ontario allows for non-resident hunting of moose.
The only other draw they have is for elk and non-residents have no opportunity to hunt them.

Unless things have changed in the last year or so outfitters in Ontario own their moose tags.

[sheephunter]

Sounds like your trying to tie them together, why even bring it up?

Because it's information...nothing to be frightened of....lol It's just the way it is down there.

[missingtwo]

you have to be 21 to legally drink in montana.

[hal53]

Gotta ask TJ, why so "pro outfitters" and who cares about the residents?, I kinda thought it might be different from you???...just asking???

[albertadave]

Just explaing how it works in the U.S.

Not to be rude, but you're really not "explaining" anything. I understand that the US has NR draws. I also understand that in some areas of the US landowners can sell permits for whatever price the market will allow. Maybe I'm a little thick, but what I don't understand is how one has, or would have to have, anything to do with the other? Help me out here.

[sheephunter]

Not to be rude, but you're really not "explaining" anything. I understand that the US has NR draws. I also understand that in some areas of the US landowners can sell permits for whatever price the market will allow. Maybe I'm a little thick, but what I don't understand is how one has, or would have to have, anything to do with the other? Help me out here.

LOL....sorry that's as deep as it gets...some people said they liked the U.S. system and I just wasn't sure if they were aware what the system was comprised of...sorry but honestly that's it. Just a fact...nothing else....lol Sorry.

[albertadave]

LOL....sorry that's as deep as it gets...some people said they liked the U.S. system and I just wasn't sure if they were aware what the system was comprised of...sorry but honestly that's it. Just a fact...nothing else....lol Sorry.

OK then, that was like pulling teeth lol. Unless I missed it somewhere, I don't think anyone here was suggesting that we adopt the entire system that the US uses, just certain aspects (NR draws).

[sheephunter]

Gotta ask TJ, why so "pro outfitters" and who cares about the residents?, I kinda thought it might be different from you???...just asking???

Who said I didn't care about residents? Kind of rude to put those words in my mouth. I think it's nice that people from other parts of the world can come here and experience our hunting......providing it's only a small percentage of our harvest. I think having another hunting group in Alberta at the table is good for hunting. I love to hunt elsewhere so it seems fair that others should be able to hunt here....in a very limited way....obviously residents first.

Is our outfitting system perfect......not even close. I support the idea of an outfitting business but that doesn't mean I wholeheatedly support what we have...hope that clears it up for you and you don't feel the need to put further words in my mouth :)

[hal53]

Who said I didn't care about residents? Kind of rude to put those words in my mouth. I think it's nice that people from other parts of the world can come here and experience our hunting......providing it's only a small percentage of our harvest. I think having another hunting group in Alberta at the table is good for hunting. I I love hunt elsewhere so it seems fair that others should be able to hunt here....in a very limited way....obviously residents first.

Is outfitting system perfect......not even close. I support the idea of an outfitting business butm that doesn't mean I wholeheatedly support what we have...hope that clears it up for you.
...as I said, just asking, good points, and yes Albertas outfitting industry needs a major over haul.

[Speckle55]

of our neighbors Yukon has a draw that is for resident only

David:)

[sheephunter]

OK then, that was like pulling teeth lol. Unless I missed it somewhere, I don't think anyone here was suggesting that we adopt the entire system that the US uses, just certain aspects (NR draws).

I never said anyone said we should adopt the entire system but several people have pointed to that system and said outfitters are making a living under it. I was just pointing out the other side of the coin...they also have guaranteed tags they can sell each year through the landowners. It's a big and guaranteed part of their income. I was simply pointing out some facts...as I originally said....lol

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by FCLightning
How many other provinces allow non-residents to hunt anything that is on a draw? Sask does not.



BC, Ontario, Quebec and New Brunswick for sure.

BC allows non-residents to apply in the draw (LEH) system?

That's news to me....

[sheephunter]

BC allows non-residents to apply in the draw (LEH) system?

That's news to me....

I think you need to read FC's question a bit more carefully ;)

The answer to his question is that Non residents, through an outfitter, can hunt species in BC that residents must draw for.

[walking buffalo]

I think you need to read FC's question a bit more carefully ;)

The answer to his question is that Non residents, through an outfitter, can hunt species in BC that residents must draw for.


:thinking-006: :)



And what do BC Resident hunters think about the Outfitter allocations in that province and its effect on their chances to draw a tag? ;)

[sheephunter]

:thinking-006: :)



And what do BC Resident hunters think about the Outfitter allocations in that province and its effect on their chances to draw a tag? ;)

Good recovery....lol

[walking buffalo]

Good recovery....lol

Good Coffee. :confused0074:

BC Residents would be thrilled to have a 10 or 20% cap on outfitter allocations, they are fighting to keep the residents share to 50%. :scared:







A person interested in asking the government what is going on with the Allocation discussions could start here.

Alberta Outfitter Allocation Policy Review
SRD

Bjorge, Ron C
780 427-9503 Executive Director, Wildlife Management

Allen, Jim
780 427-4194 Head, Game and Priority Species

Hamilton, George
780 415-2001 Manager, Priority Species

Vacant,
780 422-9534 Provincial Commercial Wildlife Allocation Specialist

Corrigan, Rob
780 644-8011 Provincial Big Game Specialist

[elkhunter11]

Thanks for the contact names WB, more e-mails on the way.

[elkhunter11]

That was quick, I have already received a reply from one of the individuals, thanking me for my input on the subject. I encourage anyone that would like to see the allocation numbers changed to contact the people that WB has listed in his post. Some e-mail addresses are listed below.

ron.bjorge@gov.ab.ca

James.Allen@gov.ab.ca

rob.corrigan@gov.ab.ca

[missingtwo]

How many outfitter allocations are there in this zone?

402 moose-18%
308 mule deer- 27%
134 mule deer -55% (MORE NON-RES TAGS THEN RES)

[flyguyd]

402 moose-18%
308 mule deer- 27%
134 mule deer -55% (MORE NON-RES TAGS THEN RES)

Its pretty much a P 14 minimum for resident moose in 402

[Salavee]

My inquiry to Mr. Bjorge regarding NR allocations.


" Dear Mr. Biorge

It has come to my attention that there is considerable disparity in Non Resident allocations currently being provided to Outfitters as compared to residents who are placed on lengthly priority draws for the same species in many WMU's:


some examples:

NR -402 moose-18%
NR -308 mule deer- 27%
NR- 134 mule deer -55% (MORE NON-RES TAGS THEN RES)


Please be kind enough to explain the reasoning behind this policy as it applies to all WMU's where resident draws exist.

Thank You,

Name
Alberta Resident hunter for over 50 years "

[whitetail Junkie]

402 moose-18%
308 mule deer- 27%
134 mule deer -55% (MORE NON-RES TAGS THEN RES)

Thats B.S....... Unexceptable....Apos and the outfitting Industry are a Cancer to our Province!

[cheemo]

If I had it my way the non residents should only get tags for species that aren't in a draw for residents, or at least draw like the rest of us for those species that there aren't sufficient numbers to require a draw format.

[slough shark]

NR -402 moose-18%
NR -308 mule deer- 27%
NR- 134 mule deer -55% (MORE NON-RES TAGS THEN RES) ,

That is nuts, that they are able to get that % of tags, between that and the antelope... unacceptable. Honestly I think the allocation system just needs to be tweaked a little, I have no issue with them getting some notice and whatnot on their tags, I would be in favor of a system that would be simple to calculate, give them that 5% of the tags in the wmu's based on the previous years tag #'s, done. I would also like to make a few changes ot the way APOS is run though and it could even make the government more money. Outfitters with multiple convictions (I'm always willing to give the benefit of the doubt on an honest mistake once) have those allocations taken away, no compensation, srd can choose to sell them again if desired.

[cowboyhunter]

Thats B.S....... Unexceptable....Apos and the outfitting Industry are a Cancer to our Province!

x10:angry3:

[metro]

I have no issue with outfitting non res hunters, tag allotments should not be a greater percentage than resident allotments though.

I would rather see restrictions on Canadian residents whose home province is uber restrictive on allowing Canadian residents to hunt there. Plenty of Saskatchewan guys hunt Alberta big game but Sask for instance keeps their big game mostly off limits to all but residents.

Why should a tag that an Albertan could have used go to a hunter whose home province wouldnt allow an Alberta resident to hunt there.

[missingtwo]

I have no issue with outfitting non res hunters, tag allotments should not be a greater percentage than resident allotments though.

I would rather see restrictions on Canadian residents whose home province is uber restrictive on allowing Canadian residents to hunt there. Plenty of Saskatchewan guys hunt Alberta big game but Sask for instance keeps their big game mostly off limits to all but residents.

Why should a tag that an Albertan could have used go to a hunter whose home province wouldnt allow an Alberta resident to hunt there.

If there is a draw for any species, have a draw amongst residents. Any general tag, offer to non-residents. Sask has it right, mostly.

[Salavee]

Here is a quote from an Alberta Outfitter advertisement " ..we are Albertas largest most prominent and successful Outfitter with 563 owned allocations.."

When it comes to setting quotas for residents all these allocations must be considered "active" in any given year whether they are utilized (sold) by the Outfitter or not. .. or are they ?

http://www.abhunting.com/wolf-coyote-hunting.asp

With approx 450 Outfitters in this Province there is no need to wonder why residents are on a lengthly draw system.

[Rhino81]

Why don't you people go birch in someone's ear who actually can do something about it. Like a bunch of little girls. I hope the give outfits more tags . Trained pros asking for permission and trying not to bother anyone. Rather that than city folk tresspassing theday away , and then having to replace rings in our grain bins because glen from Calgary just doesn't bother to pay attention to his surroundings. It is because of residents and only residents why landowners do not allow permission.

[eggo]

Why don't you people go birch in someone's ear who actually can do something about it. Like a bunch of little girls. I hope the give outfits more tags . Trained pros asking for permission and trying not to bother anyone. Rather that than city folk tresspassing theday away , and then having to replace rings in our grain bins because glen from Calgary just doesn't bother to pay attention to his surroundings. It is because of residents and only residents why landowners do not allow permission.

Wrong land owners don't like outfitters making money off their land

[Salavee]

That's a pretty good take on reality Rhino.. Lol Rip & Tear !

[H380]

Why don't you people go birch in someone's ear who actually can do something about it. Like a bunch of little girls. I hope the give outfits more tags . Trained pros asking for permission and trying not to bother anyone. Rather that than city folk tresspassing theday away , and then having to replace rings in our grain bins because glen from Calgary just doesn't bother to pay attention to his surroundings. It is because of residents and only residents why landowners do not allow permission.

I'm hoping this post is totally sarcastic .. Trained pros ? Get recommended by an outfitter to be a guide for him and you are a pro .. LOL ..

[missingtwo]

Why don't you people go birch in someone's ear who actually can do something about it. Like a bunch of little girls. I hope the give outfits more tags . Trained pros asking for permission and trying not to bother anyone. Rather that than city folk tresspassing theday away , and then having to replace rings in our grain bins because glen from Calgary just doesn't bother to pay attention to his surroundings. It is because of residents and only residents why landowners do not allow permission.

WRONG!!!

The only time i have been refused permission is when the owner slipped up and said" the outfitter only allows us to let in doe hunters". I read between the lines.

[elkhunter11]

Why don't you people go birch in someone's ear who actually can do something about it. Like a bunch of little girls. I hope the give outfits more tags . Trained pros asking for permission and trying not to bother anyone. Rather that than city folk tresspassing theday away , and then having to replace rings in our grain bins because glen from Calgary just doesn't bother to pay attention to his surroundings. It is because of residents and only residents why landowners do not allow permission.


If every outfitter was a trained professional, I wouldn't be seeing their names appearing in the Game Warden magazine, in stories detailing their convictions under the Wildlife Act, or the Criminal Act. The fact that APOS allows these criminals to remain members, proves just how unprofessional APOS is.

[Whitetail slayer]

I've never heard so much whining and crying from a bunch of babies who snivel and pout over something so easy to fix. If you don't like the time it takes to draw a tag get off your wallet and travel to one of the general zones.

[Salavee]

I've never heard so much whining and crying from a bunch of babies who snivel and pout over something so easy to fix. If you don't like the time it takes to draw a tag get off your wallet and travel to one of the general zones.

Slayer ...There are some who don't roll over quite so quickly. If there is something obviously
not right with a system or regulation why not try and fix it .. or have it fixed ? Accepting the status quo like your brilliant "easy fix" never gets much done. I,m sure every Outfitter in the Province would like res hunters to go somewhere else. Maybe the Outfitters should have only the far Northern part of the Province .. all to themselves. Does that make sense ?

[elkhunter11]

Slayer ...There are some who don't roll over quite so quickly. If there is something obviously
not right with a system or regulation why not try and fix it .. or have it fixed ?

Exactly, some of us put in an effort to get rid of the long gun registry, and in time, we won the battle. Had we just rolled over and accepted the registry, like many people did we would still have it. I sent a lot of e-mails to various people concerning the LGR, and I am doing the same in this situation. If more of us did the same, our chance of success would be much greater.

[pikeslayer22]

Exactly, some of us put in an effort to get rid of the long gun registry, and in time, we won the battle. Had we just rolled over and accepted the registry, like many people did we would still have it. I sent a lot of e-mails to various people concerning the LGR, and I am doing the same in this situation. If more of us did the same, our chance of success would be much greater.
Who are you emailing regarding this issue?

[elkhunter11]

Who are you emailing regarding this issue?

I have e-mailed these people.

ron.bjorge@gov.ab.ca

James.Allen@gov.ab.ca

rob.corrigan@gov.ab.ca

Bjorge, Ron C
780 427-9503 Executive Director, Wildlife Management

Allen, Jim
780 427-4194 Head, Game and Priority Species

Hamilton, George
780 415-2001 Manager, Priority Species

Vacant,
780 422-9534 Provincial Commercial Wildlife Allocation Specialist

Corrigan, Rob
780 644-8011 Provincial Big Game Specialist

[pikeslayer22]

Thx will send a few myself.

[CBintheNorth]

Why don't you people go birch in someone's ear who actually can do something about it. Like a bunch of little girls. I hope the give outfits more tags . Trained pros asking for permission and trying not to bother anyone. Rather that than city folk tresspassing theday away , and then having to replace rings in our grain bins because glen from Calgary just doesn't bother to pay attention to his surroundings. It is because of residents and only residents why landowners do not allow permission.

I'm sure you're just trying to stir the pot here... but for the record, I have hunted for decades around Morrin, and the first question 90% of landowners asked me is if I'm a guide. When I tell them I'm not, I'm free to go on.

Not sure what kind of PR work these so called 'trained pros' are doing out there but it's definitely PO'ing a lot of good people.

Curious....where are your allocations?