2013 Sheep season

[EchoValley]

What do you guys think 2013 gonna be draw for trophy sheep?

[Elko]

Full curl south of cadomin is my bet.

[walking buffalo]

Full curl south of cadomin is my bet.

My bet is No Change for 2013.

Gotta toe the line, whatever the odds on the bet. :)

If we start accepting what the gov. proposes for sheep as inevitable, then it will happen.

[EchoValley]

I just keep hearing that they are going to make all of Alberta draw only for Big Horn thus ending the general tag.

[DC72]

I don't know if they know for sure but Fish and Wildlife told me that as of next year the season will close 10 days earlier and a 3 year wait after killing a ram, at least for the south zones

[Fer-Tak-Er]

I don't know if they know for sure but Fish and Wildlife told me that as of next year the season will close 10 days earlier and a 3 year wait after killing a ram, at least for the south zones

I guess it's just that easy. I'm sure that will solve the Big horn Ram problem that Alberta does not have.

[bulletman]

I think they are going to knock the last 10 days off the season, and we should have to wait out a couple of years, if we actually kill one, full curl is next!

[sheephunter]

I just keep hearing that they are going to make all of Alberta draw only for Big Horn thus ending the general tag.

Not even on the table...............rest easy.

[sheephunter]

I don't know if they know for sure but Fish and Wildlife told me that as of next year the season will close 10 days earlier and a 3 year wait after killing a ram, at least for the south zones

That's what they've suggested....nothing is decided yet.

[silver lab]

Can someone explain, if one horn restriction (4/5) "isnt" working what will another horn restriction (fullcurl) do?

[Ultimate Predator]

I hope draw full province its hard to get on a ram at 30 yrd bowhunting when rifle hunters r shooting across the mountain they should have an early bow season

[sheephunter]

Can someone explain, if one horn restriction (4/5) "isnt" working what will another horn restriction (fullcurl) do?

If we knew what wasn't working it would help...lol...but the latest is that we are killing too many rams and no question this will significantly reduce harvest.

[silver lab]

I thought this was a genetics thing?

[sheephunter]

I thought this was a genetics thing?

It was...lol...kind of a moving target what they are trying to fix. They haven't totally abandonned the genetic arguement but are trying some new ideas now.

[NayNay]

I hope draw full province its hard to get on a ram at 30 yrd bowhunting when rifle hunters r shooting across the mountain they should have an early bow season

:party0052:

[ksteed17]

I hope draw full province its hard to get on a ram at 30 yrd bowhunting when rifle hunters r shooting across the mountain they should have an early bow season

Killed mine at 35 yards with a rifle. I know a lot of guys who have killed one under 100. They already have bow only zones and tags.

[albertadave]

I hope draw full province its hard to get on a ram at 30 yrd bowhunting when rifle hunters r shooting across the mountain they should have an early bow season

And if they go to a province wide draw, I hope you enjoy holding a holding a tag about once every 20-30 years (if you're lucky), because that's what it will be when +/- 20,000 people start applying every year.

[ksteed17]

And if they go to a province wide draw, I hope you enjoy holding a holding a tag about once every 20-30 years (if you're lucky), because that's what it will be when +/- 20,000 people start applying every year.

X2! If there's gonna be changes a draw would be the absolute worst thing.

[bulletman]

I was under the impression only about 2500 purchased general ram tags! I know somebody will correct me if I'm wrong!

[albertadave]

I was under the impression only about 2500 purchased general ram tags! I know somebody will correct me if I'm wrong!

You are correct, but go look at the stats on the sheep draw tags we already have. Over 10,000 applicants if memory serves me correct. Think about it, if it went to province wide draw, there's a WHOLE lot of people that don't hunt sheep seriously, or don't even hunt them at all, that won't pay $50.00 for a general tag, but would throw their name in if was only a $4.00 application fee. I think there would also be a lot of wives, girlfriends, uncles, mother-in-laws ect. that would suddenly become "sheep hunters"

[bulletman]

I think you're pretty close with those thoughts!

[sheephunter]

You are correct, but go look at the stats on the sheep draw tags we already have. Over 10,000 applicants if memory serves me correct. Think about it, if it went to province wide draw, there's a WHOLE lot of people that don't hunt sheep seriously, or don't even hunt them at all, that won't pay $50.00 for a general tag, but would throw their name in if was only a $4.00 application fee. I think there would also be a lot of wives, girlfriends, uncles, mother-in-laws ect. that would suddenly become "sheep hunters"

Close, 11,829 applicants for sheep draws in 2011.

[Ultimate Predator]

How many of u guys that are against the draw put your name in for a draw zone every year hoping to pull a tag take your name out hunt the open areas then?

[walking buffalo]

How many of u guys that are against the draw put your name in for a draw zone every year hoping to pull a tag take your name out hunt the open areas then?


That's what we are trying to tell you. :rolleye2:

[pikeslayer22]

Close, 11,829 applicants for sheep draws in 2011.
"I know I am going to get flamed for this but" as someone said before put a substantial price tag on the application and cut that number down by 50 to 75 per cent. The 3 dollar fee is BS!

[bdub]

Of all the options that seem to be coming to the table, the one I find the best of a bad bunch would be for them to go to full curl. It still allows the same opportunity to hunt. Some rams may never reach full curl due to genetics or brooming and the genetic thing may be more prevalent in some areas, but to me this is the only option that maintains hunting opportunity as well as increasing the age structure of the rams. I would be curious to see the harvest statistics for 400 since it went to full curl. Shutting down the last ten days of the season will keep a few more park and mine rams from being killed but there really is no shortage of rams in either the parks or mine areas. They could also do alot to improve the sheep hunting by dealing with habitat improvement, predator control, access and outfitter allocations. I hope that nothing happens but they seem set on doing something about the perceived problem.

[bdub]

"I know I am going to get flamed for this but" as someone said before put a substantial price tag on the application and cut that number down by 50 to 75 per cent. The 3 dollar fee is BS!

At what dollar level would it make a difference? 20$, 200$, 2000$. It could make it a rich mans game and then who would care about the sheep. The handfull of people who could afford it? At that point the future of sheep and sheep hunting would be seriously compromised.

[albertadave]

How many of u guys that are against the draw put your name in for a draw zone every year hoping to pull a tag take your name out hunt the open areas then?

I'm really not sure what you're asking and/or suggesting here? Some punctuation might help :) Are you saying that if I don't agree with the idea of the entire province going to draw for sheep, that I should opt out of applying for the special license draws already in place? Or that if I apply on one of those licenses, that I shouldn't be buying a general tag? Or if I want to buy a general tag, I shouldn't apply in the draw? :confused:

[pikeslayer22]

Not sure but something needs to be done with the lost opportunities, the if I don't go I have nothing to loose mentality! Hunted 438 first hunt this year and was the only one there...nice having all three hills to ourselves but WTF! I am sure a lot of guys would give their left nut to be on that hunt and some dingbat applies and doesn't show up!

[bdub]

Not sure but something needs to be done with the lost opportunities, the if I don't go I have nothing to loose mentality! Hunted 438 first hunt this year and was the only one there...nice having all three hills to ourselves but WTF! I am sure a lot of guys would give their left nut to be on that hunt and some dingbat applies and doesn't show up!

Thats there perogative I guess and loss as well. The draw thing is kind of a damned if you do or damned if you don't thing. How do you determine who should apply based on a dollar value. Same thing happens everywhere. Guys put their wives in etc. Not sure how you could get around that type of situation and limit it to the serious hunters.

[Pillage]

Thats there perogative I guess and loss as well. The draw thing is kind of a damned if you do or damned if you don't thing. How do you determine who should apply based on a dollar value. Same thing happens everywhere. Guys put their wives in etc. Not sure how you could get around that type of situation and limit it to the serious hunters.

The proof is in the pudding!! Look at the late season draws,betcha 80% that get it are first time sheep hunters. Good on them for getting it but they wouldn't of put in for it if it wasn't on draw..

[Stinky Coyote]

Good point, a friend mentioned this also, and I sort of agree, we blow how much cash on a couple tanks of gas....keep in mind, also, for guys who find a ram while chasing elk then either shoot it and run to town for a tag or vice versa....how bout a) increase tag price to a couple three hundred and b) u cannot buy the tag during open season, must be bought before aug 25


Anyhow, I agree with most, what's the problem? It's pretty self regulating, leave it alone, I do like to see guys earn their sheep tho, so all for things that reward the true sheepers and reduce the happen chancers opportunities. The big thing is keep opportunity and whatevertheir goals r management wise there is likely plenty of options too keep opportunity andor even increase it while still hitting goals(ie; early bow season for weak or two?), going to draw will ruin the greatest hunting thing ever in north America IMO!

[pottymouth]

At what dollar level would it make a difference? 20$, 200$, 2000$. It could make it a rich mans game and then who would care about the sheep. The handfull of people who could afford it? At that point the future of sheep and sheep hunting would be seriously compromised.

Not that I'm advocating for increasing the prices on sheep, because I do believe everyone should have an opportunity... But just playing devils advocate here....

Technically sheep hunting globally is a rich mans sport. With a small opportunity for average Joe to hunt through long draws, raffles and lotteries. Throw in equipment, travel, time of work it gets really expensive.

I would be curious to know what some of the other price tags are for draws and tags, for sheep across N.A. I will check some out in the morning, purely just to see where we stand, especially because we have one of the best populations. It would be interesting to see the ratios across the board.

[bdub]

I think a couple of the points make sense. Perhaps sheep tags would have to be bought before the draws comes out and you would have to have one prior to entering the draw. Any sheep hunter is going to be buying a tag each and every year anyway. This would probably limit the draws somewhat to the serious sheep hunters and also limit the incidental kills from the guys shooting one as they see them and running to town for a tag. I could also see raising the draw and tag costs a bit but kept within reason.

[209x50]

The proof is in the pudding!! Look at the late season draws,betcha 80% that get it are first time sheep hunters. Good on them for getting it but they wouldn't of put in for it if it wasn't on draw..
Every year 80% of the rams registered are the hunters first and only ram of his life. This is every year for all sheep killed across the board. Now think what that number (80%) means to the validity of the proposed changes. Right away you can see that wait times are meaningless. 4/5 curl then full curl is unattainable as well. Where are all the full curl coming from when 80% of the rams killed every year will be 4/5ths?
Full curl in all the south does take a lot of hunters out of the mountains that see the most tourism. Or is that just incidental?

[bdub]

Every year 80% of the rams registered are the hunters first and only ram of his life. This is every year for all sheep killed across the board. Now think what that number (80%) means to the validity of the proposed changes. Right away you can see that wait times are meaningless. 4/5 curl then full curl is unattainable as well. Where are all the full curl coming from when 80% of the rams killed every year will be 4/5ths?
Full curl in all the south does take a lot of hunters out of the mountains that see the most tourism. Or is that just incidental?

I am missing what you are saying about 4/5 curl and full curl. If it goes to full curl it would take a few years to get those rams up to full curl so the harvest may be reduced for a while. Or are you saying that if it goes to full curl people are going to shoot rams under full curl anyway?

[Speckle55]

whats changed in the last 40 years in the 1970's we had 5000 sheep now we have 6000 sheep .....1000 are on minesite that u can,t hunt in less than 10 sq miles other than that .. where is the sheep problem,, show us the facts and are they telling the committee that they don't have any classes of sheep coming up as in 2 /3/4/5 year old rams coming up in all areas ....please get the facts and show all Albertans... other wise its just someone spouting un proven and un-accepted therories../ time to ph our MLA's and ask them to investagate the BS and Fire the PETA agenda staff/contractors

oopppss sorry for being so negative;;

David:)

[ishootbambi]

Guys put their wives in etc. Not sure how you could get around that type of situation and limit it to the serious hunters.

thats the biggest problem with the draws now is all the wives, daughters, dogs etc that have not and will not hunt even if drawn. soem donkey is gonna shoot it on someone elses tag like the guy in the wilmore sneaking a mtn goat out at 2 in the morning. i dont know if "serious" sheep hunters is the right word...but non sheep hunters are creating issues.

Perhaps sheep tags would have to be bought before the draws comes out and you would have to have one prior to entering the draw. .

i like it....but its easier to just raise the draw app fee. having a gen tag would require some work to be done to keep you legal in draw zones....but i dont hate the idea.

[ishootbambi]

please get the facts and show all Albertans... other wise its just someone spouting un proven and un-accepted therories

like culling?

[Stinky Coyote]

wouldn't it be nice if the only changes coming were simply to do as the above few posts indicate? buy tags before draw, draws that cost at least 50-100 bucks and tags that cost 250-300 bucks, a few hun per sheep hunter before summer hits guaranteed costs...that should streamline things a bit and make for easier/better record keeping, maybe limit the amount of short sheep shot as more knowledgable dudes have the tags/draws instead of any joe...this has nothing to do with making it a rich mans sport, maintain opportunity for those who want to do it and take it serious, a few tanks of gas is hardly putting it into rich mans sport territory so quit whining about that

the biggest area to improve is giving srd legal legs to actually charge and convict every single person who shoots a short sheep and make it serious enough if you do shoot a shorty that it becomes a very rare occurance rather than an easy win in court....

these are the things that are broke imo....nothing else....leave the seasons alone, there are other ways to keep and or increase opportunity without penalizing the true sheephunters, fix the actual issues we actually know about

[Duk Dog]

fix the actual issues we actually know about

You missed some - how about habitat loss/maintenance (ie burns), and predator management. IMO those are a couple of key components contributing to the issues in the province that seldom seem to be addressed.

I'm not positive but I think it was Packhuntr that mentioned somewhere that we seem to be missing the boat on the real issues. It seems like post after post after post wants to blame cheap tag prices, non residents, outfitters etc. All of that factors in to the equation of course but I'm not sure any of them greater than habitat and predator issues.

[ksteed17]

You missed some - how about habitat loss/maintenance (ie burns), and predator management. IMO those are a couple of key components contributing to the issues in the province that seldom seem to be addressed.

It's because those practical solutions cost money and time. And we all know our government doesn't like wasting those two things...

[sheephunter]

I am missing what you are saying about 4/5 curl and full curl. If it goes to full curl it would take a few years to get those rams up to full curl so the harvest may be reduced for a while. Or are you saying that if it goes to full curl people are going to shoot rams under full curl anyway?

Not all rams have the ability to make full curl and many broom before reaching it.....it would significantly reduce havest numbers forever.

[Duk Dog]

It's because those practical solutions cost money and time. And we all know our government doesn't like wasting those two things...

I realize that but does that mean we should spend all of our time finding patch work solutions? Blame the tag prices, blame the outfitters, blame the archers, blame the non residents etc etc. Everything factors in but I just don't see any of those items being the sole solution to what is wrong.

[ksteed17]

I realize that but does that mean we should spend all of our time finding patch work solutions? Blame the tag prices, blame the outfitters, blame the archers, blame the non residents etc etc. I just don't see any of those items being the sole solution to what is wrong.

Neither do I. I'm agreeing with you I think we should do burns and better predator control but our government has shown its easier to manage us then it is to manage the real issues. I like the idea of buying a tag before the draw but not so much the idea of higher tag costs. I'm not sure what the answer is.

[bdub]

Not all rams have the ability to make full curl and many broom before reaching it.....it would significantly reduce havest numbers forever.

What are the harvest statistics in 400 pre and post full curl rule. I tried to find that out but couldn't. I do understand the brooming and and genetic thing. It might not be a bad thing leaving a few short pigs to die of old age. Maybe have a draw for them. I don't know what the answer is. It is a good discussion to have though.

[Duk Dog]

Neither do I. I'm agreeing with you I think we should do burns and better predator control but our government has shown its easier to manage us then it is to manage the real issues. I like the idea of buying a tag before the draw but not so much the idea of higher tag costs. I'm not sure what the answer is.

We've all seen how the draw system works at times, especially under heavy use - can you imagine the potential issues with every unsuccessful applicant trying to get their refund.
One idea that has been floated in other posts that I like and is in use in some states is the ability to return the tag - let it get reissued to another applicant. Life can throw you a curve ball from time to time and if that happened it would be a good option to return the tag (maintain your points) and let it get reissued.

[sheephunter]

What are the harvest statistics in 400 pre and post full curl rule. I tried to find that out but couldn't. I do understand the brooming and and genetic thing. It might not be a bad thing leaving a few short pigs to die of old age. Maybe have a draw for them. I don't know what the answer is. It is a good discussion to have though.

I don't think anyone should even entertain any changes until we know what the problem is....otherwise we are playing right into their hands. Let's identify a problem...if we even have one before we start considering solutions.

[bdub]

I don't think anyone should even entertain any changes until we know what the problem is....otherwise we are playing right into their hands. Let's identify a problem...if we even have one before we start considering solutions.

I agree we need a clear and proven reason prior to any changes. As for the 400 pre and post full curl harvest stats does anyone know that info out of curiosity.

[bdub]

We've all seen how the draw system works at times, especially under heavy use - can you imagine the potential issues with every unsuccessful applicant trying to get their refund.
One idea that has been floated in other posts that I like and is in use in some states is the ability to return the tag - let it get reissued to another applicant. Life can throw you a curve ball from time to time and if that happened it would be a good option to return the tag (maintain your points) and let it get reissued.

I don't know why you would give any money back. Don't most people unsucessfull in a sheep draw in Alberta buy a general tag and hunt them elsewhere.:)

[Nait Hadya]

bighorn sheep on a quota,simple solution.

[dshaw]

bighorn sheep on a quota,simple solution.

like cougars, not a bad idea.

[sheephunter]

What problem are we trying to fix?

[pottymouth]

Just for comparison, resident Bighorn sheep tags, without any other fee's included. ( i didn't check on the draws if any, that are involved)

Alberta $ 51.31

B.C $ 60
Colorado $ 254
Montana $ 130
Utah $ 513
Oregon $ 122.50
Washington $332
Wyoming $ 117

[bowhuntercam]

Every year 80% of the rams registered are the hunters first and only ram of his life.

Is this a guess, or a stat from real data?

If that is the data it would be interesting to know first timers who kill rams in the general season compared to first time ram killers taken with draw tags.

[ksteed17]

Just for comparison, resident Bighorn sheep tags, without any other fee's included. ( i didn't check on the draws if any, that are involved)

Alberta $ 51.31

B.C $ 60
Colorado $ 254
Montana $ 130
Utah $ 513
Oregon $ 122.50
Washington $332
Wyoming $ 117

Interesting. But of those how many are general? Ab, bc, and mt? Spending a few hundred dollars is no biggie when you do it once in your lifetime. When your doing it every year that really adds up.

[bowhuntercam]

What about a royalty system based on the age of the ram/

Hunters still have the opportunity to purchase a tag and hunt sheep. This system gives hunters the incentive to hold out for older rams and will stop those who whack a ram every other season to sell the cape.

7 and under - $400
8 – $300
9 - $200
10 and older - $100

Lots of other provinces and states have royalties that are much steeper.

[pottymouth]

What about a royalty system based on the age of the ram/

Hunters still have the opportunity to purchase a tag and hunt sheep. This system gives hunters the incentive to hold out for older rams and will stop those who whack a ram every other season to sell the cape.

7 and under - $400
8 – $300
9 - $200
10 and older - $100

Lots of other provinces and states have royalties that are much steeper.

Only problem with that, is that we've already determined most f&w guys don't know how to age properly. Most likely one of the reason we are here debating all this. Throw in some heavey brooming , and now your looking for some real arguements.

[bowhuntercam]

Throw in some heavey brooming , and now your looking for some real arguements.


No doubt!

Might be a good thing for hunters; skew the data in favor of older rams for a few extra dollars.

[sheephunter]

Is this a guess, or a stat from real data?

If that is the data it would be interesting to know first timers who kill rams in the general season compared to first time ram killers taken with draw tags.

Data is real but I don't think it's broken up between draw and non draw harvest. At least I've never seen it.

[Roughneck Country]

At what dollar level would it make a difference? 20$, 200$, 2000$. It could make it a rich mans game and then who would care about the sheep. The handfull of people who could afford it? At that point the future of sheep and sheep hunting would be seriously compromised.

Sheep hunting already is a rich mans game. $40K for a guided Hunt in AB, or if your a DIY resident your still looking at $2K+ in gear (assuming you have a super cheap spotting scope) Sheep hunting even if the tag was free is not cheap. In Arizona and New Mexico they have super expensive tags and you need to front the entire amount up front for the draw. It doesn't seem to deter everyone from applying. I do think it cuts out the fringe that are not serious about sheep hunting though and it makes the sheep hunt more of a once in a lifetime opportunity, maybe twice if your lucky.

Not sure what the best solution is but a $500 or $600 upfront draw cost could help eliminate some of the fringe that just applys for the sake of applying. I know I wouldn't front that kind of $$ for a species I wasn't serious about hunting.

[pikeslayer22]

Sheep hunting already is a rich mans game. $40K for a guided Hunt in AB, or if your a DIY resident your still looking at $2K+ in gear (assuming you have a super cheap spotting scope) Sheep hunting even if the tag was free is not cheap. In Arizona and New Mexico they have super expensive tags and you need to front the entire amount up front for the draw. It doesn't seem to deter everyone from applying. I do think it cuts out the fringe that are not serious about sheep hunting though and it makes the sheep hunt more of a once in a lifetime opportunity, maybe twice if your lucky.

Not sure what the best solution is but a $500 or $600 upfront draw cost could help eliminate some of the fringe that just applys for the sake of applying. I know I wouldn't front that kind of $$ for a species I wasn't serious about hunting.
Agreed...money up front on application and if not succesful on the draw it is refundable.

[pikeslayer22]

Sheep hunting already is a rich mans game. $40K for a guided Hunt in AB, or if your a DIY resident your still looking at $2K+ in gear (assuming you have a super cheap spotting scope) Sheep hunting even if the tag was free is not cheap. In Arizona and New Mexico they have super expensive tags and you need to front the entire amount up front for the draw. It doesn't seem to deter everyone from applying. I do think it cuts out the fringe that are not serious about sheep hunting though and it makes the sheep hunt more of a once in a lifetime opportunity, maybe twice if your lucky.

Not sure what the best solution is but a $500 or $600 upfront draw cost could help eliminate some of the fringe that just applys for the sake of applying. I know I wouldn't front that kind of $$ for a species I wasn't serious about hunting.
Agreed...money up front on application and if not succesful on the draw it is refundable.

[bdub]

Data is real but I don't think it's broken up between draw and non draw harvest. At least I've never seen it.

Data, data, I would like to see some data. Where can hunters access any of this data on harvest statistics by zone, ram ages on harvest etc., etc. Maybe all the stuff they are telling us about the so called problem is not true. Is there anywhere to access the information so we can come to an educated opinion or do we just take the word of the SRD on everything. Am I missing something or is this data easy to find?

[sheephunter]

Data, data, I would like to see some data. Where can hunters access any of this data on harvest statistics by zone, ram ages on harvest etc., etc. Maybe all the stuff they are telling us about the so called problem is not true. Is there anywhere to access the information so we can come to an educated opinion or do we just take the word of the SRD on everything. Am I missing something or is this data easy to find?

Easy like hen's teeth...lol You have to get it from SRD. They have done a few public presentations and shared some of it that way and if you pester them enough you seem to get some but as for all of it....it seems a mystery.

[bdub]

Easy like hen's teeth...lol You have to get it from SRD. They have done a few public presentations and shared some of it that way and if you pester them enough you seem to get some but as for all of it....it seems a mystery.

Thanks SH. I am starting to get the feeling that it is pretty tough to dig up much. Somebody or some office must have this information. Would be nice of them to share all of it with the stakeholders so we can all be informed before they make any changes. I think this info should be readily available to anyone.

[ovis40]

Every year 80% of the rams registered are the hunters first and only ram of his life. QUOTE]

What is the average age of this 80%?

[QUOTE=ksteed17;1754731] When your doing it every year that really adds up.

You just need to get your priorities straight that’s all. How much is a round of golf? How many people just got to have that new sled every year? How much is a pack of smokes every day? How many guys have that diesel truck jacked up in the air with some big boots on it just to drive up and down the hwy? If you have the money to do some of these then fine. But when I hear some of these people say “ I used to hunt but I quit because it’s too expensive” that almost makes me pizz myself laughing! It all depends how serious you are.

[Acesneights]

[QUOTE=209x50;1753312]Every year 80% of the rams registered are the hunters first and only ram of his life. QUOTE]

What is the average age of this 80%?



You just need to get your priorities straight that’s all. How much is a round of golf? How many people just got to have that new sled every year? How much is a pack of smokes every day? How many guys have that diesel truck jacked up in the air with some big boots on it just to drive up and down the hwy? If you have the money to do some of these then fine. But when I hear some of these people say “ I used to hunt but I quit because it’s too expensive” that almost makes me pizz myself laughing! It all depends how serious you are.


Agreed.

[25-06rem.model700]

I think it should be changed to three rams in a life time. Kill one three years before next tag, if ram is older then previous another three years. If you kill younger you wait five. If your third ram is younger then either of the previous two you wait seven if same age or older simply wait another two. This is of they wanna keep it general. If changing it to draw keep it only three a lifetime. And possible full curl general and 4/5ths on draw. And make it that if you don't kill a ram older then your previous you lose priority points.

[sheephunter]

I think it should be changed to three rams in a life time. Kill one three years before next tag, if ram is older then previous another three years. If you kill younger you wait five. If your third ram is younger then either of the previous two you wait seven if same age or older simply wait another two. This is of they wanna keep it general. If changing it to draw keep it only three a lifetime. And possible full curl general and 4/5ths on draw. And make it that if you don't kill a ram older then your previous you lose priority points.

Over 80% of rams killed are a guy's first. Guys killing multiple rams really isn't much of an issue.....but wait....is there an issue?

[walking buffalo]

Data, data, I would like to see some data. Where can hunters access any of this data on harvest statistics by zone, ram ages on harvest etc., etc. Maybe all the stuff they are telling us about the so called problem is not true. Is there anywhere to access the information so we can come to an educated opinion or do we just take the word of the SRD on everything. Am I missing something or is this data easy to find?

I asked Jim Allen for this information at the 2012 WSF general meeting. With over 200 witnesses present, Jim said he would send it to me. After several reminders, Well, I am still waiting....


I know where the data is, but can't get access to it.


The government contracted a Biologist to compile the data. As is the law, the information belongs to the contract Biologist, with a clause that allows the government access to the information.

Contracting out this research gives the government the legal ability to keep the information out of public hands.


BTW, the contract Biologist has written extensively if favour of the position that Selective hunting is causing genetic harm to Bighorn Sheep and that "Trophy" hunting should be tighly restricted, even eliminated.

[southunter]

Walking buffalo can post links to any of the contract bio's papers that he has published on the topic of sheep. I would be interested in reading them. I don't even now who he is to do my own search.

[Smoke]

Hey fellow sheephunters, the trap has been set and many of us are getting caught. All of these options of how we need to go about restricting ourselves reminds me of just a few years ago when the elk numbers started to drop off. We all agreed to go on a Draw for six pointers. Well not that many years later here we are. Very few elk left to hunt with no trophy quality for sure.

This elk situation happens to be in the same area as where the perceived Bighorn sheep probems are today. We bought into this draw system as the tool to solve the problem. We have proven now that this system failed elk management so well that drawing a permit would be all but a waste of time.

This is exactly what is going to happen to our Bighorns if we give into the same plan. With cougar densities on the rise in the entire province and countless tracks being noticed within all the valleys and mountainsides where these sheep live, I fear for the sheep.

We have been told at different sheep management meetings that 'predator management options are off the table'. Someone has as agenda. Who it is I am not sure, but if sport hunters are the only tool in the box we will have less numbers each year whether we hunt them or not. Some one has to give us some answers. If it is the plan of this government to allow our sheep population to deteriorate as they did the elk in this region then I along with many more would like to know that. You know that if the number of harvestable rams gets low enough they will have to shut it down. That certainly is the wish of some, I hope it is not our managers or our poiticians. I think we had the wool pulled over our eyes with this elk reduction, I see it coming with Bighorns also. Who is willing to ask the hard questions?

[walking buffalo]

Hey fellow sheephunters, the trap has been set and many of us are getting caught. All of these options of how we need to go about restricting ourselves reminds me of just a few years ago when the elk numbers started to drop off. We all agreed to go on a Draw for six pointers. Well not that many years later here we are. Very few elk left to hunt with no trophy quality for sure.

This elk situation happens to be in the same area as where the perceived Bighorn sheep probems are today. We bought into this draw system as the tool to solve the problem. We have proven now that this system failed elk management so well that drawing a permit would be all but a waste of time.

This is exactly what is going to happen to our Bighorns if we give into the same plan. With cougar densities on the rise in the entire province and countless tracks being noticed within all the valleys and mountainsides where these sheep live, I fear for the sheep.

We have been told at different sheep management meetings that 'predator management options are off the table'. Someone has as agenda. Who it is I am not sure, but if sport hunters are the only tool in the box we will have less numbers each year whether we hunt them or not. Some one has to give us some answers. If it is the plan of this government to allow our sheep population to deteriorate as they did the elk in this region then I along with many more would like to know that. You know that if the number of harvestable rams gets low enough they will have to shut it down. That certainly is the wish of some, I hope it is not our managers or our poiticians. I think we had the wool pulled over our eyes with this elk reduction, I see it coming with Bighorns also. Who is willing to ask the hard questions?


Bang on Smoke!

Those who propose hunter management solutions to a non-existant problem are shooting all other hunters in the foot, with the bullet ricocheting to the marksman's ash.





Many of us have seen through the wool.

I was gonna say "smoke" instead of wool, but for some reason it just didn't work here. :lol:


I have warned that the proposed 6-point draw, spike general Elk season in 402 is along the same vein. This proposal began due to pressure from APOS to get the SW Foothills under a draw system. Well, I hope APOS wakes up and learns the consequences of their requests.

Extremely limited hunting of Mature animals, harvest of yearlings for population control is EXACTLY what the Genetic Harm gang are promoting, and APOS is falling into the trap, granted, due to a different desire.


The hard questions are being asked by many. Are the people at AGMAG asking AF&W the hard questions, or demanding the information and data used to justify these proposals? I sure hope so. Lets not lose the fight due to a desire to be nice. ;)







Walking buffalo can post links to any of the contract bio's papers that he has published on the topic of sheep. I would be interested in reading them. I don't even now who he is to do my own search.

My files are on another comp. The first name in this paper did the Sheep Data analysis.


A few members of The Genetic Harm Gang

Marco Festa-Bianchet
David Coltman
Jon Jorgenson (Senior Alberta Wildlife Biologist with AF&W)
Some call him the godfather......


this is an early paper on the topic. The most recent paper is by J. Jorgenson, claiming that the data they used is incorrect. But.... He is now saying that the Data suggests that the Genetic Harm caused by selective hunting is worse than they ever imagined! :rolleye2:

Age-related Horn Growth, Mating Tactics, and Vulnerability to Harvest: Why Horn Curl Limits may Select for Small Horns in Bighorn Sheep

http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/NWSGC-2006/Festa-Bianchet%20FINAL.pdf



BTW, Hunters are paying for some of the active research to prove the genetic harm theory through grants provided by the ACA. :thinking-006:

[Smoke]

Here is a good read by one of the most respected in the Bighorn world

[getasheep]

Here is a good read by one of the most respected in the Bighorn world

Thanks.

[209x50]

Age-related Horn Growth, Mating Tactics, and Vulnerability to Harvest: Why Horn Curl Limits may Select for Small Horns in Bighorn Sheep


Each year 80% of the kills registered are the hunters first and only ram.

When faced with this fact they have a hard time trying to prove that these first time hunters are holding out for the biggest and best thus hurting the genetic make up of the herd.
The Yukon study proved that genetics only account for 2.5% (yes 2.5%) of trophy potential. Almost everything else is determined by environmental conditions.

[Fer-Tak-Er]

Each year 80% of the kills registered are the hunters first and only ram.

When faced with this fact they have a hard time trying to prove that these first time hunters are holding out for the biggest and best thus hurting the genetic make up of the herd.
The Yukon study proved that genetics only account for 2.5% (yes 2.5%) of trophy potential. Almost everything else is determined by environmental conditions.

Thats the great thing about sheep hunting. No one is going to shoot another ram that is the same size. So that is why 80% is there first ram. I know I won't shoot another 4/5 curl. Next time it will be bigger. That might take a while. In my books, any ram is a good first ram.

[bdub]

I asked Jim Allen for this information at the 2012 WSF general meeting. With over 200 witnesses present, Jim said he would send it to me. After several reminders, Well, I am still waiting....


I know where the data is, but can't get access to it.


The government contracted a Biologist to compile the data. As is the law, the information belongs to the contract Biologist, with a clause that allows the government access to the information.

Contracting out this research gives the government the legal ability to keep the information out of public hands.


BTW, the contract Biologist has written extensively if favour of the position that Selective hunting is causing genetic harm to Bighorn Sheep and that "Trophy" hunting should be tighly restricted, even eliminated.

Thanks WB. Sounds like a bad deal. We pay for the research by a biased biologist and then are shut out of the information. The whole thing stinks the more you look at it.