city hunter mistakes horse for cow moose

[Rhino81]

A local farmer in my area had to put one of his horses down after its leg was shot off by a hunter from Calgary. After shooting the horses leg off the hunters tracks drove up to the horse as it lay there in agony still alive. They left the animal there alive and drove off. The farmer found his horse hours later still alive and put the animal out of it misery. The hunters were later found and charged. How does this happen. Why would they not tell the horseowner.

[Cmiller]

ignorance...

[Whiteysonly]

Yup here we go again, I chased some ***** lining up on my donkey in my pasture

[ganderblaster]

Ya the Anti's are at it again:angry3:

[Cmiller]

please dont give ignorant lazy or any bad hunter that refuses to be a man and take this sport with honesty and integrity the title of "city hunter". I grew up in the city and live in a city and still am avid outdoorsmen who hates these schmucks as much as the next redneck living in rural Alberta. jk on the redneck guys but honestly dont call them city hunters call them for what they are, f##king stupid good for nothing LOSERS

[IR_mike]

A local farmer in my area had to put one of his horses down after its leg was shot off by a hunter from Calgary. After shooting the horses leg off the hunters tracks drove up to the horse as it lay there in agony still alive. They left the animal there alive and drove off. The farmer found his horse hours later still alive and put the animal out of it misery. The hunters were later found and charged. How does this happen. Why would they not tell the horseowner.

Seeings how they drove off after the shooting, how were they later found and charged?

[emoric]

sad..
on that note a saw a cow moose just off the henday and ray gibbons dr this morning

[silver lab]

sad..
on that note a saw a cow moose just off the henday and ray gibbons dr this morning

HEY!! Thats my horse! :)

[TomE]

A local farmer in my area had to put one of his horses down after its leg was shot off by a hunter from Calgary. After shooting the horses leg off the hunters tracks drove up to the horse as it lay there in agony still alive. They left the animal there alive and drove off. The farmer found his horse hours later still alive and put the animal out of it misery. The hunters were later found and charged. How does this happen. Why would they not tell the horseowner.

And this hasn't made the news? This thread is the first to pop up when googled..

[tyv12]

Heard it from a guy who knows a guy who saw a guy....??

[Lefty-Canuck]

First consider the source.....then find out the truth :)

LC

[trainerdave]

What was the date of this infraction? Too bad for all involved and hopefully some education is about to commence on this hunting/poaching party.

[C & C]

I bet a black dually and a 2 year old calf were involved in this one....

[dale7637]

I've heard this too many times to believe it.

[denpacc]

please dont give ignorant lazy or any bad hunter that refuses to be a man and take this sport with honesty and integrity the title of "city hunter". I grew up in the city and live in a city and still am avid outdoorsmen who hates these schmucks as much as the next redneck living in rural Alberta. jk on the redneck guys but honestly dont call them city hunters call them for what they are, f##king stupid good for nothing LOSERS

X2

[manion1]

40yrs ago when my dad was a RCMP in BC he went to call where to non residents from the phillipines had shot and killed two horses thinking that they were cow moose.

[hayseed]

So today.... threw a saddle on my cow moose and went hunting horses....

Story an no pics to follow.....

[grinr]

How does this happen. Why would they not tell the horseowner.

To answer your 2nd question,obviously they got scared and figured they were in a heap of doodoo,not to mention the financial ramifications,fines for no permission,restitution for the horse,so they beat it ta hell outta there.

How does this happen you ask?
How does somebody mistake a person for a deer and shoot them??....happens all the time.So in that context,mistaking a horse for a moose ain't much of a stretch,no?
Fwiw,got a similar little story myself from this fall.I was driving in a logging road off the Harold Creek Rd this fall,exploring new to me area,when 500 yards up the road I just caught a glimpse of a big black critter as it got across the road.Middle of nowhere basically,obviously it's a moose yes?Got out my camera from pack,drove up to near where it crossed,it was now 200 yards down in grown up cut,got out with binocs and camera,could see bits and pieces of this "moose" moving thru the trees,stepped into clear,and I'll be damned,it was a feral(?) horse....then 2,3,4,5 of em.
Shiite happens and it happens all the time,and don't kid yourself,I don't care who you are or how great a legend of a hunter in your own mind you think you are,it can happen to you too.

[canuck]

I've heard this too many times to believe it.

Really?

Cause it happened here this year as well - neighbor had his livestock (horses and cows) out on pasture next to me and on the first weekend of the season (typically the worst of the worst out - a literal war zone around here) one of his horses was shot.
I don't believe it was intentional shooting (I'm leaning toward an errant round), but never-the-less, it happened.

Believe it or not.

[Rhino81]

Seeings how they drove off after the shooting, how were they later found and charged?they were givin permission to hunt moose on said farmers land and that is how they were caught. Why not tell the landowner and sort it out with him.

[whitetail Junkie]

they were givin permission to hunt moose on said farmers land and that is how they were caught. Why not tell the landowner and sort it out with him.

X2...if they were AFGA Members,the insurance would have paid the Farmer for the horse and maybe they might not have been charged!

And what the hell wmu is open for moose right now????

[Rhino81]

To answer your 2nd question,obviously they got scared and figured they were in a heap of doodoo,not to mention the financial ramifications,fines for no permission,restitution for the horse,so they beat it ta hell outta there.

How does this happen you ask?
How does somebody mistake a person for a deer and shoot them??....happens all the time.So in that context,mistaking a horse for a moose ain't much of a stretch,no?
Fwiw,got a similar little story myself from this fall.I was driving in a logging road off the Harold Creek Rd this fall,exploring new to me area,when 500 yards up the road I just caught a glimpse of a big black critter as it got across the road.Middle of nowhere basically,obviously it's a moose yes?Got out my camera from pack,drove up to near where it crossed,it was now 200 yards down in grown up cut,got out with binocs and camera,could see bits and pieces of this "moose" moving thru the trees,stepped into clear,and I'll be damned,it was a feral(?) horse....then 2,3,4,5 of em.
Shiite happens and it happens all the time,and don't kid yourself,I don't care who you are or how great a legend of a hunter in your own mind you think you are,it can happen to you too. legend? Just a messenger. If anyone cares to know the area and landowner feel free to pm me and I will fill you in. Sorry about the city comment. Should not paint all with the same brush. Have met many of you and have made some great friends in Calgary from this site.

[Rhino81]

X2...if they were AFGA Members,the insurance would have paid the Farmer for the horse and maybe they might not have been charged!

And what the hell wmu is open for moose right now????I was helping the hunter with the ministers tag for mule the last while and talked to the landowner yesterday. This happened in November and I just found out about it.

[Knot Rite]

Yup here we go again, I chased some ***** lining up on my donkey in my pasture

Dang it, you said you went goin to tell.

Bobby

[220swifty]

Great gramps used to count on these 'city hunters' for a little supplemental income every fall. His homestead was in the Crane Lake area, and each year he would get a meat horse at the auction, and tie it to a tree within earshot of the house. He would wait for a shot, then go out there and catch the buggers that just shot his "prize cutting horse". He would then put a price tag on it that was usually 100 times more than he actually paid ($200 for a $2 horse), explain to the 'city hunters' that they could pay up or deal with the law, and then rake in the profit. I guess you could say gramps was an entrepreneur.

[whitetail Junkie]

Great gramps used to count on these 'city hunters' for a little supplemental income every fall. His homestead was in the Crane Lake area, and each year he would get a meat horse at the auction, and tie it to a tree within earshot of the house. He would wait for a shot, then go out there and catch the buggers that just shot his "prize cutting horse". He would then put a price tag on it that was usually 100 times more than he actually paid ($200 for a $2 horse), explain to the 'city hunters' that they could pay up or deal with the law, and then rake in the profit. I guess you could say gramps was an entrepreneur.

:evilgrin:.....lol

[Pincherguy]

First consider the source.....then find out the truth :)

LC

I think you know more than you are saying LC. I have a tendancy to believe you IMHO.Just sayin'
PG

[IR_mike]

Great gramps used to count on these 'city hunters' for a little supplemental income every fall. His homestead was in the Crane Lake area, and each year he would get a meat horse at the auction, and tie it to a tree within earshot of the house. He would wait for a shot, then go out there and catch the buggers that just shot his "prize cutting horse". He would then put a price tag on it that was usually 100 times more than he actually paid ($200 for a $2 horse), explain to the 'city hunters' that they could pay up or deal with the law, and then rake in the profit. I guess you could say gramps was an entrepreneur.

Hmmmm.............:thinking-006:

Anyone got a set of matching moose sheds I can have?

[ram crazy]

To answer your 2nd question,obviously they got scared and figured they were in a heap of doodoo,not to mention the financial ramifications,fines for no permission,restitution for the horse,so they beat it ta hell outta there.

How does this happen you ask?
How does somebody mistake a person for a deer and shoot them??....happens all the time.So in that context,mistaking a horse for a moose ain't much of a stretch,no?
Fwiw,got a similar little story myself from this fall.I was driving in a logging road off the Harold Creek Rd this fall,exploring new to me area,when 500 yards up the road I just caught a glimpse of a big black critter as it got across the road.Middle of nowhere basically,obviously it's a moose yes?Got out my camera from pack,drove up to near where it crossed,it was now 200 yards down in grown up cut,got out with binocs and camera,could see bits and pieces of this "moose" moving thru the trees,stepped into clear,and I'll be damned,it was a feral(?) horse....then 2,3,4,5 of em.
Shiite happens and it happens all the time,and don't kid yourself,I don't care who you are or how great a legend of a hunter in your own mind you think you are,it can happen to you too.

Your kidding right!!!! Never point a firearm at an object unless your 100% sure of what it is. :scared0015:

[grinr]

legend? Just a messenger. If anyone cares to know the area and landowner feel free to pm me and I will fill you in. Sorry about the city comment. Should not paint all with the same brush. Have met many of you and have made some great friends in Calgary from this site.
I wasn't referring to you personally Rhino,nor anybody in particular....maybe instead of "you" I should have used "y'all"?
Your kidding right!!!! Never point a firearm at an object unless your 100% sure of what it is. :scared0015:
Ummm...NO,I'm not kidding,not the least little bit.Hunting accidents happen every year in damn near every province and state in N.A.....do you not think that when somebody mistakes a human for a deer and squeezes the trigger that they weren't 100% convinced in their own mind that it was a deer they were shooting at?
Yea I know,I know....but those people are idiots,or inexperienced,or drunk,or any combination of,yes?How da hell does somebody make a mistake like that?Same way I always thought for years until somebody that I knew very well,respected as an avid outdoorsman,and hunted with myself for many years fatally shot his own uncle......and this guy was Mr.Safety poster boy personified,in fact,I wouldnt think twice about hunting with him again tommorrow if he hadnt lost his passion for hunting that fatal day and gave up his guns,so don't tell me it can't happen to anybody.Myself personally,having
first hand knowledge and details of the circumstances that led to that tragic
accident,it's not hard to put myself in his boots and think that yea,it coulda been any one of us.

[Lefty-Canuck]

I hear where you are coming from Grinr.

Sometimes our eyes and brains tell us one thing but really they should be telling us another.

I remember one time I was out coyote hunting and I watched a coyote run into a pasture with some long grass.

So I pulled into the yard and asked the farmer if he minded if I shot a coyote....he said no worries shoot em all!

So I snuck around his round bales and look out into the pasture and I see what I think is a coyote sitting down....so I put my gun up on it and have a look....still looks like a coyote sitting down but something just did not seem right. So I shifted positions to get a better vantage and realize I was looking at a dirty charolais bull laying down on the ground, the way he was positioned and the way the long grass masked his body but made the outline of a coyote, ALMOST folled me...I didn't pull the trigger because I wasn't 100% sure. I can tell you for a few second my eyes and brain were telling me it was a coyote.....but it wasn't.

After that situation....it reminds me each time to make 100% sure what I am shooting at is what I am shooting at.

LC

[MKD]

I've heard this too many times to believe it.

The great Urban Myth. Call Myth Busters.

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

Your kidding right!!!! Never point a firearm at an object unless your 100% sure of what it is. :scared0015:


*Whistle*...He said with binocs and a camera ......

[Dakota369]

To answer your 2nd question,obviously they got scared and figured they were in a heap of doodoo,not to mention the financial ramifications,fines for no permission,restitution for the horse,so they beat it ta hell outta there.

How does this happen you ask?
How does somebody mistake a person for a deer and shoot them??....happens all the time.So in that context,mistaking a horse for a moose ain't much of a stretch,no?
Fwiw,got a similar little story myself from this fall.I was driving in a logging road off the Harold Creek Rd this fall,exploring new to me area,when 500 yards up the road I just caught a glimpse of a big black critter as it got across the road.Middle of nowhere basically,obviously it's a moose yes?Got out my camera from pack,drove up to near where it crossed,it was now 200 yards down in grown up cut,got out with binocs and camera,could see bits and pieces of this "moose" moving thru the trees,stepped into clear,and I'll be damned,it was a feral(?) horse....then 2,3,4,5 of em.
Shiite happens and it happens all the time,and don't kid yourself,I don't care who you are or how great a legend of a hunter in your own mind you think you are,it can happen to you too.

Nope....... it cannot........ will not.........as I will never pull the trigger unless I am sure of my target......... not shooting at a dark or black blotch etc....... I have to be sure or the safety is not off nor is the trigger pulled......I'm kinda sad that you feel you can make excuses for someone who did, and then say basically "don't worry, we will all eventually do it"......... in my opinion this type of occurrence is both irresponsible, and criminal......

:snapoutofit:

[C Taylor]

My folks had a horse shot quite a few years ago, we believe it was in the middle of the night. I have had the aurgument a few times about putting horses in fields that road hunters can see. a landowner should be taking precautions aswell, its kinda like looking both ways before using a crosswalk. Don't matter who is in the right,if it can be avoided.
Horses at last light can look like moose and hunters can get too excited.

[ram crazy]

Nope....... it cannot........ will not.........as I will never pull the trigger unless I am sure of my target......... not shooting at a dark or black blotch etc....... I have to be sure or the safety is not off nor is the trigger pulled......I'm kinda sad that you feel you can make excuses for someone who did, and then say basically "don't worry, we will all eventually do it"......... in my opinion this type of occurrence is both irresponsible, and criminal......

:snapoutofit:

My point exactly, There are a lot of idiots out there that shouldn't be carrying a firearm if you are just willing to pull the trigger before not being 100% sure.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Just to be clear....I can see how things may look like one thing but be another. I do not condone shooting at objects without 100% confirmation of what the object is.

LC

[skelly]

I was riding my horse one day through an old clear cut looking for sign of muley. It was about a 2 hr ride to the other end of the clear cut and then up an old logging road. When I came back out of the logging road and onto the edge of the clear cut I stopped to glass down into a valley and noticed a quad with 2 people on it coming at me. When they realized that there was something standing at the tree line they stopped aprox 200 yrds away and I watched as the person on the back of the quad gave the person on he front a gun. Then he lifted the gun to his shoulder and looked at me. As soon as he realized that there was something sitting ontop of this animal he pulled the gun down quicker than he put it up. I rode up to them. Asked how they were and turns out I knew them. It didn't hit me till after we chatted that I was just scoped. To this day it still kinda pi$$3& me off. So now I am very careful where and when I will take my horses out for hunting.

[ram crazy]

This is why they sell Bino's to carry around your neck, I know it's a novel concept. People should try using them instead of a rifle scope. I mean if you have enough time to get your rifle out and look isn't it just as easy to lift up your bino's which are around your neck. I don't understand people.

[grinr]

Nope....... it cannot........ will not.........as I will never pull the trigger unless I am sure of my target......... not shooting at a dark or black blotch etc....... I have to be sure or the safety is not off nor is the trigger pulled......I'm kinda sad that you feel you can make excuses for someone who did, and then say basically "don't worry, we will all eventually do it"......... in my opinion this type of occurrence is both irresponsible, and criminal......

:snapoutofit:

My point exactly, There are a lot of idiots out there that shouldn't be carrying a firearm if you are just willing to pull the trigger before not being 100% sure.

Apparently neither of you are getting the point?He WAS 100% sure "in his mind" what he was shooting at,and that's all that matters when the pin drops.

[catnthehat]

I remember years ago reading an article in Bowhunter magazine ( and a few others) about a hunter inOhio that killed another hunter jsut before legal shooting time.
he actually thought he was aiming his bow at a fork horn deer, but waht he actually shot was another hunter packing a baker style tree stand.

he was charged and aquitted of murder, and it was determined after that he should have been charged with hunting before legal light with manslaughter.
He really thought he was shooting at a deer and testified so.
That spwned a fund for the dead hunter's wife by Cobra, they designed a red light to wear on yoru hat.

This would have been about 25 years ago IIRC., but I may be wrong on the dates
The guy was not a green horn was an experienced hunter, but broke the lawand in so doing killed another hunter.
Cat

[Killerb]

A friend told me his nephew was killed after being shot by a hunter while he was canoeing. Explain how a hunter can mistake a child in an orange vest, on a canoe as any type of animal?

[cal33]

A friend told me his nephew was killed after being shot by a hunter while he was canoeing. Explain how a hunter can mistake a child in an orange vest, on a canoe as any type of animal?

My first question when I hear these stories is "are you sure it was a hunter, or was it some individual with a gun?" When it's a gun related or poaching story the word hunter is used too freely, I think.

[creeky]

My folks had a horse shot quite a few years ago, we believe it was in the middle of the night. I have had the aurgument a few times about putting horses in fields that road hunters can see. a landowner should be taking precautions aswell, its kinda like looking both ways before using a crosswalk. Don't matter who is in the right,if it can be avoided.
Horses at last light can look like moose and hunters can get too excited.

what if that's the only pasture a guy owns, and what precautions would you recommend other than a fence, posting your property line and holding the deeds to it?

[C & C]

My first question when I hear these stories is "are you sure it was a hunter, or was it some individual with a gun?" When it's a gun related or poaching story the word hunter is used too freely, I think.

This is absolutely key, I consider myself a hunter and I can’t understand why so many others on here group themselves with people who are not.
As a hunter I:
Follow the regulations and laws
Use binoculars to ensure what my target is and the line of sight to that target is safe
Leave areas I know someone else is hunting already
Don’t cut fences or leave gates open
Ask permission to hunt private or leased land
Respect my rifle and always know where it’s pointed
Anyone who doesn’t follow these is not a hunter IMO and calling them hunters only gives the rest of us a poor image in the public eye. We hound the media when they mistake hunters for poachers or criminals and yet many on here group themselves with these criminals/poachers by calling them hunters.

If this really did happen it’s unfortunate but it wasn’t a hunter is was an uneducated guy with a rifle that is hopefully going to receive the punishment and education needed to eventually become a hunter.

[ram crazy]

This is absolutely key, I consider myself a hunter and I can’t understand why so many others on here group themselves with people who are not.
As a hunter I:
Follow the regulations and laws
Use binoculars to ensure what my target is and the line of sight to that target is safe
Leave areas I know someone else is hunting already
Don’t cut fences or leave gates open
Ask permission to hunt private or leased land
Respect my rifle and always know where it’s pointed
Anyone who doesn’t follow these is not a hunter IMO and calling them hunters only gives the rest of us a poor image in the public eye. We hound the media when they mistake hunters for poachers or criminals and yet many on here group themselves with these criminals/poachers by calling them hunters.

If this really did happen it’s unfortunate but it wasn’t a hunter is was an uneducated guy with a rifle that is hopefully going to receive the punishment and education needed to eventually become a hunter.

2x...

[Killerb]

My first question when I hear these stories is "are you sure it was a hunter, or was it some individual with a gun?" When it's a gun related or poaching story the word hunter is used too freely, I think.

Yeah you're right most likely an idiot poacher. Then again there are some hunters that make you wonder how they even passed the test. When he goes canoeing with his kids he makes sure to get off the water before dusk.

[gatorhunter]

On the other side of this coin is a story of moose "hunters" not shooting at the mules they saw only to be told later that those were cow moose!

[Big Daddy Badger]

I've heard this too many times to believe it.

Yup

No doubt it has happened but it never seems to be the horse or cow owner doing the telling.
My thought is that when it does happen 99.999% of the time....its not a hunter... its some dick that for whatever reason wants to kill something and horses and cows are just so easy to get shape on... a rustler or someone that is just plain sick in the head.

[Rhino81]

Yup

No doubt it has happened but it never seems to be the horse or cow owner doing the telling.
My thought is that when it does happen 99.999% of the time....its not a hunter... its some dick that for whatever reason wants to kill something and horses and cows are just so easy to get shape on... a rustler or someone that is just plain sick in the head.are you telling me that the guys who had permission to hunt on R.U s land intentionally shot a horse. Why would you risk getting caught by presenting yourself to the landowner.

[Huntnut]

This is absolutely key, I consider myself a hunter and I can’t understand why so many others on here group themselves with people who are not.
As a hunter I:
Follow the regulations and laws
Use binoculars to ensure what my target is and the line of sight to that target is safe
Leave areas I know someone else is hunting already
Don’t cut fences or leave gates open
Ask permission to hunt private or leased land
Respect my rifle and always know where it’s pointed
Anyone who doesn’t follow these is not a hunter IMO and calling them hunters only gives the rest of us a poor image in the public eye. We hound the media when they mistake hunters for poachers or criminals and yet many on here group themselves with these criminals/poachers by calling them hunters.

If this really did happen it’s unfortunate but it wasn’t a hunter is was an uneducated guy with a rifle that is hopefully going to receive the punishment and education needed to eventually become a hunter.

I agree with what you are saying. BUT. A number of years ago-(the first year that blaze orange was not mandatory) a freind of mine was elk hunting in the saddle hills and yes he was wearing camo. He was shot by another hunter. Thankfully he survived but did loose a hand. The hunter that shot him was an experienced hunter that swears to this day I'm sure that he saw an elk. Sometimes people a see what they want to see. That's no excuse for what happened but that's probably what happened.

[catnthehat]

I agree with what you are saying. BUT. A number of years ago-(the first year that blaze orange was not mandatory) a freind of mine was elk hunting in the saddle hills and yes he was wearing camo. He was shot by another hunter. Thankfully he survived but did loose a hand. The hunter that shot him was an experienced hunter that swears to this day I'm sure that he saw an elk. Sometimes people a see what they want to see. That's no excuse for what happened but that's probably what happened.
I think that this is a very valid point, because I know of numerous accounts of people who were shot wearing camo and orange - the two on the quad really sticks with me!:thinking-006:

Cat

[Huntnut]

I think that this is a very valid point, because I know of numerous accounts of people who were shot wearing camo and orange - the two on the quad really sticks with me!:thinking-006:

Cat

Yup....know the guide that that happened too.

[catnthehat]

The strange thing is Huntnut, that almost every time I read about an instance where a hunter is killed, the person who shot him was " an experienced hunter"
Strange....
Cat

[Huntnut]

The strange thing is Huntnut, that almost every time I read about an instance where a hunter is killed, the person who shot him was " an experienced hunter"
Strange....
Cat

I agree totally Cat. I have a 12 year old son that has been hunting with me since he was 5 and I pound into his head that you always make sure of your target. I've hunted with guys that I consider experienced and a couple of times when they hear a bull elk bugeling and coming in they are ready to shoot the first thing that moves-(I don't hunt with them anymore and they wonder why). Some people are just so gung ho-(for lack of a better term) that they seem to loose all sense of reason.

[jacenbeers]

Great gramps used to count on these 'city hunters' for a little supplemental income every fall. His homestead was in the Crane Lake area, and each year he would get a meat horse at the auction, and tie it to a tree within earshot of the house. He would wait for a shot, then go out there and catch the buggers that just shot his "prize cutting horse". He would then put a price tag on it that was usually 100 times more than he actually paid ($200 for a $2 horse), explain to the 'city hunters' that they could pay up or deal with the law, and then rake in the profit. I guess you could say gramps was an entrepreneur.

That is pretty funny.:sHa_shakeshout:

[tikka300wsm]

Very funny about the "entrepreneur" farmer.

Two years ago I had some retards in an old red F-150 literally shooting out of the truck, from the road at me down in southern Alberta near Manyberries. I was dragging a downed deer out of a ravine about 500 yards from the road, and finally had to let off a warning shot to let these guys know I was human.

[C & C]

Just because someone has "hunted" recklessly for many years does not make them an experienced hunter. To mistake a human for an animal camo or no camo is not a hunter. Either they are hunting out of their optic capabilities or they are shooting too soon. Sure you might seem movement but if you can't use some good binos or a proper spotting scope at long ranges they are reckless and have just been lucky or gotten lazy in their experience.

Making excuses for people who shoot before proper identification is only adding to the poor public image of hunters and deteriating the fragile relationship between landowners and hunters.

Edits: first post on itouch and auto correct owned me

[catnthehat]

I don't think anybody is making excuses here at all, I do think that there have been several instances recounted where the person THOUGHT they were shooting at an animal - however, that does not mean we are justifying the incidents.:thinking-006:
Personally I could never get my head around how someone could mistake a two legged human being for a four legged animal.
Cat

[KegRiver]

- the two on the quad really sticks with me!:thinking-006:

Cat

You mean Dollard"s two hunters? Or was there another such incident?

[338Bluff]

Why is it necessary to include 'city' in the description? .....other than that is where the nimrod hailed from.

Hillbilly's and yokels can be idiots too. I grew up west of the 5th. Believe me when I say that the urbanites do not have the market cornered on stupid.

A trigger happy twit is the bane of us all. Really feel for the owner on this one. It is an incredible shame to lose an animal that way.

[catnthehat]

You mean Dollard"s two hunters? Or was there another such incident?

Can't remember the name , but the facts I do remember were that the two hunters were on a quad and the person that shot them was apparently100 yards away through the brush, which really struck me as odd.

Cat

[msheppardbrown]

Very funny about the "entrepreneur" farmer.

Two years ago I had some retards in an old red F-150 literally shooting out of the truck, from the road at me down in southern Alberta near Manyberries. I was dragging a downed deer out of a ravine about 500 yards from the road, and finally had to let off a warning shot to let these guys know I was human.

That's a really scary thought.... Glad you were unharmed.

:eek:

[calgarychef]

I'm still waiting to hear how they knew these were "city" hunters. I get pi$$ed at this common statement.

[Lefty-Canuck]

I'm still waiting to hear how they knew these were "city" hunters. I get pi$$ed at this common statement.

I don't wouldn't consider myself a City or a Country boy...but I have seen dough heads from both walks of life in the field...

Idiots know no boundaries...:)

LC :)

[Rhino81]

I'm still waiting to hear how they knew these were "city" hunters. I get pi$$ed at this common statement.how who knew. The fish and wild life officer that charged them, the landowner, or the locals in the area. Come on, you don't have to be perry mason the figure that out. Word gets around. I already admitted i made a mistake in a post on page one about the stereotype.

[msheppardbrown]

I'm still waiting to hear how they knew these were "city" hunters. I get pi$$ed at this common statement.

x2

[C & C]

I don't think anybody is making excuses here at all, I do think that there have been several instances recounted where the person THOUGHT they were shooting at an animal - however, that does not mean we are justifying the incidents.:thinking-006:
Personally I could never get my head around how someone could mistake a two legged human being for a four legged animal.
Cat

I meant to quote Huntnut but using the itouch sucks for posting. Its auto correct changed many words such as “camo and binos” to whatever floated its boat I guess. That and the quote wouldn’t quote.
It was the part where he described an event in which someone was shot by another person and called a hunter again. While some may think its nit picking; we have all seen quotes used on this site to fuel some poorly written media article or anti article. In reference to his post again a hunter is not someone who only goes out and fills their tags every year. They are responsible for their actions and with that don’t mistake after properly using their optics a human for an animal. Someone might have been lucky and filled their tags for 50years without an incident but that 50 years of “experience” doing it wrong means nothing when they mistake a human for an animal.

My point is that we need to start really being careful who we label as hunters. Sure 90% of the readers on here “know” what we mean but it’s the new hunters and the general public we need to educate. Interchanging the word hunter with poacher, criminal or some guy with a gun is not helping us. I just sat through a Christmas dinner where guns and gun control was brought up. 95% of my family and relatives don’t hunt and have only every had information fed to them through the media and regular TV programming. Some of the first words out of their mouth about hunting are “you shoot bambi” or “I can’t believe you like to kill things”. Then there’s the difference between guns themselves, pretty much in their mind if it’s black it’s a machine gun and if it has a scope it’s a sniper rifle. None of this is positive. Now I am not sure how to start creating a positive public image but I think we could start by at least getting our own terminology right and call people and events what they really are instead of the broad “hunter” labeling brush.

[Rhino81]

I meant to quote Huntnut but using the itouch sucks for posting. Its auto correct changed many words such as “camo and binos” to whatever floated its boat I guess. That and the quote wouldn’t quote.
It was the part where he described an event in which someone was shot by another person and called a hunter again. While some may think its nit picking; we have all seen quotes used on this site to fuel some poorly written media article or anti article. In reference to his post again a hunter is not someone who only goes out and fills their tags every year. They are responsible for their actions and with that don’t mistake after properly using their optics a human for an animal. Someone might have been lucky and filled their tags for 50years without an incident but that 50 years of “experience” doing it wrong means nothing when they mistake a human for an animal.

My point is that we need to start really being careful who we label as hunters. Sure 90% of the readers on here “know” what we mean but it’s the new hunters and the general public we need to educate. Interchanging the word hunter with poacher, criminal or some guy with a gun is not helping us. I just sat through a Christmas dinner where guns and gun control was brought up. 95% of my family and relatives don’t hunt and have only every had information fed to them through the media and regular TV programming. Some of the first words out of their mouth about hunting are “you shoot bambi” or “I can’t believe you like to kill things”. Then there’s the difference between guns themselves, pretty much in their mind if it’s black it’s a machine gun and if it has a scope it’s a sniper rifle. None of this is positive. Now I am not sure how to start creating a positive public image but I think we could start by at least getting our own terminology right and call people and events what they really are instead of the broad “hunter” labeling brush.
I stand corrected. I agree with you totally.

[grinr]

So let me get this straight??
Prior to the days(100years ago?)of high tech optics,rifle scopes becoming common,compact binocs and laser rangefinders becoming "standard" gear there were no "hunters"??Because as every gearhorr gadget junkie knows,no "true hunter" would ever take a shot at what he "thinks" is game without first ranging it by laser,confirming it is indeed a buck worthy of his wall with binocs and guesstimating it's B&C score,and possibly snapping a pic with iPhone,then posting it to AO and yet another "whats he score" thread for the rest of the peanut gallery clowns to give approval.
Oh sure,there was alot of "yahoo" fur trappers,bison slayers,market gunners for waterfowl,Indian fighters,and just plain old mountain men that lived and died by their Hawken rifles,but no "hunters" by some twisted,self-righteous,holier than thou definition that some here on this forum like to preach??

Newsflash for ya.....I "hunt" (apparently using the term loosely?)with an iron sights Hawken rifle.I don't own a rangefinder nor a spotting scope,and I rarely use binocs other than to glass a distant/out of range hillside.I guess its a Fn miracle that I've never shot a horse or a human with such a reckless,low tech approach to things.....:rolleye2:

[Rhino81]

So let me get this straight??
Prior to the days(100years ago?)of high tech optics,rifle scopes becoming common,compact binocs and laser rangefinders becoming "standard" gear there were no "hunters"??Because as every gearhorr gadget junkie knows,no "true hunter" would ever take a shot at what he "thinks" is game without first ranging it by laser,confirming it is indeed a buck worthy of his wall with binocs and guesstimating it's B&C score,and possibly snapping a pic with iPhone,then posting it to AO and yet another "whats he score" thread for the rest of the peanut gallery clowns to give approval.
Oh sure,there was alot of "yahoo" fur trappers,bison slayers,market gunners for waterfowl,Indian fighters,and just plain old mountain men that lived and died by their Hawken rifles,but no "hunters" by some twisted,self-righteous,holier than thou definition that some here on this forum like to preach??

Newsflash for ya.....I "hunt" (apparently using the term loosely?)with an iron sights Hawken rifle.I don't own a rangefinder nor a spotting scope,and I rarely use binocs other than to glass a distant/out of range hillside.I guess its a Fn miracle that I've never shot a horse or a human with such a reckless,low tech approach to things.....:rolleye2:you obviously make 110% sure of your target. Just like everyone should.

[ganaraska]

To answer your 2nd question,obviously they got scared and figured they were in a heap of doodoo,not to mention the financial ramifications,fines for no permission,restitution for the horse,so they beat it ta hell outta there.

How does this happen you ask?
How does somebody mistake a person for a deer and shoot them??....happens all the time.So in that context,mistaking a horse for a moose ain't much of a stretch,no?
Fwiw,got a similar little story myself from this fall.I was driving in a logging road off the Harold Creek Rd this fall,exploring new to me area,when 500 yards up the road I just caught a glimpse of a big black critter as it got across the road.Middle of nowhere basically,obviously it's a moose yes?Got out my camera from pack,drove up to near where it crossed,it was now 200 yards down in grown up cut,got out with binocs and camera,could see bits and pieces of this "moose" moving thru the trees,stepped into clear,and I'll be damned,it was a feral(?) horse....then 2,3,4,5 of em.
Shiite happens and it happens all the time,and don't kid yourself,I don't care who you are or how great a legend of a hunter in your own mind you think you are,it can happen to you too.

It will never happen to you if you obey the biggest rule in hunting (big game especially), Identify your target.If your not sure....DONT SHOOT!

[hunterfisher]

You guys don't carry a megaphone? Just give a Holler through there and than guesstimate the speed of travel and if it runs faster then 30km/hour have at er. Lol. No seriously I never pull the trigger on something I'm not sure of. I mean come on; I guarantee it wouldn't happen to me. Now another thing to remember is don't walk around with those rattling antlers on your backpack. Or carry out a quarter of an animal on your back. Safety safety safety I know u don't need to preach that as it should be common sense RIGHT.

[grinr]

It will never happen to you if you obey the biggest rule in hunting (big game especially), Identify your target.If your not sure....DONT SHOOT!

What if you ARE 100% sure....and you were wrong?You guys are still missing the point.Do you not think that in almost EVERY accidental shooting,that the hunter wasn't sure of his target when he touched one off?
A cpl pages back,I shared a story involving two people very close to me....he was 110% sure he was shooting at the big buck he had wounded 10 minutes earlier,sure as hell not his uncle that was "supposed to be" 500 yards in opposite direction tracking said buck.Low light,last few minutes of day,iron sighted 30-30 @ 150 yards,a colorblind hunter that couldn't distinguish hunter orange in the best of conditions,and what he beleived 100% was his "wounded deer" staggering through corn stubble.....turned out to be his uncle hunched over,parting the stubble with his hands(deer silhouette?),following the blood trail.In fact,he raised his rifle 3x thinking this "deer" was about to tip over.....on the third time,he fired.
I'm just saying,Shiite can happen to anybody when your mind plays tricks and you see what you want to see,so your "100% positively identify your target" argument doesn't fly when youre convinced that you are shooting at game.

[C & C]

So let me get this straight??
Prior to the days(100years ago?)of high tech optics,rifle scopes becoming common,compact binocs and laser rangefinders becoming "standard" gear there were no "hunters"??Because as every gearhorr gadget junkie knows,no "true hunter" would ever take a shot at what he "thinks" is game without first ranging it by laser,confirming it is indeed a buck worthy of his wall with binocs and guesstimating it's B&C score,and possibly snapping a pic with iPhone,then posting it to AO and yet another "whats he score" thread for the rest of the peanut gallery clowns to give approval.
Oh sure,there was alot of "yahoo" fur trappers,bison slayers,market gunners for waterfowl,Indian fighters,and just plain old mountain men that lived and died by their Hawken rifles,but no "hunters" by some twisted,self-righteous,holier than thou definition that some here on this forum like to preach??

Newsflash for ya.....I "hunt" (apparently using the term loosely?)with an iron sights Hawken rifle.I don't own a rangefinder nor a spotting scope,and I rarely use binocs other than to glass a distant/out of range hillside.I guess its a Fn miracle that I've never shot a horse or a human with such a reckless,low tech approach to things.....:rolleye2:

Sigh great job at missing the point totally. While optics usually applies to scope/binos or other forms of looking at range, simply using your eyes with iron sights will work too. I would expect that you are not shooting at 600 yards at game with iron sights in high populated hunting areas. Someone doing this I don’t consider a hunter. They are just lucky they haven’t hurt someone. TARGET IDENTIFICATION is what we are talking about; you choose to do it without longer ranges or bino’s…well grats to you. Maybe if you give your head a shake and stop trying to choke out the computer monitor you won’t miss the point next time and save yourself the durp rant.

[C & C]

What if you ARE 100% sure....and you were wrong?You guys are still missing the point.Do you not think that in almost EVERY accidental shooting,that the hunter wasn't sure of his target when he touched one off?
A cpl pages back,I shared a story involving two people very close to me....he was 110% sure he was shooting at the big buck he had wounded 10 minutes earlier,sure as hell not his uncle that was "supposed to be" 500 yards in opposite direction tracking said buck.Low light,last few minutes of day,iron sighted 30-30 @ 150 yards,a colorblind hunter that couldn't distinguish hunter orange in the best of conditions,and what he beleived 100% was his "wounded deer" staggering through corn stubble.....turned out to be his uncle hunched over,parting the stubble with his hands(deer silhouette?),following the blood trail.In fact,he raised his rifle 3x thinking this "deer" was about to tip over.....on the third time,he fired.
I'm just saying,Shiite can happen to anybody when your mind plays tricks and you see what you want to see,so your "100% positively identify your target" argument doesn't fly when youre convinced that you are shooting at game.

Use some bino's think first shoot after, if you can't tell the difference between a buck and human with bino's its time to hang up the rifle and take up something new. this is why people get shot, buck fever and movement and BAM someones dead and you thought you saw a deer.

Wow, color blind hunter? Low light 150 yards and already poor eyesight running around shooting....I hope its some private land you have locked up so knowone get hurts.

[ram crazy]

What if you ARE 100% sure....and you were wrong?You guys are still missing the point.Do you not think that in almost EVERY accidental shooting,that the hunter wasn't sure of his target when he touched one off?
A cpl pages back,I shared a story involving two people very close to me....he was 110% sure he was shooting at the big buck he had wounded 10 minutes earlier,sure as hell not his uncle that was "supposed to be" 500 yards in opposite direction tracking said buck.Low light,last few minutes of day,iron sighted 30-30 @ 150 yards,a colorblind hunter that couldn't distinguish hunter orange in the best of conditions,and what he beleived 100% was his "wounded deer" staggering through corn stubble.....turned out to be his uncle hunched over,parting the stubble with his hands(deer silhouette?),following the blood trail.In fact,he raised his rifle 3x thinking this "deer" was about to tip over.....on the third time,he fired.
I'm just saying,Shiite can happen to anybody when your mind plays tricks and you see what you want to see,so your "100% positively identify your target" argument doesn't fly when youre convinced that you are shooting at game.

Give it a rest already!!!!

[scrapper]

A local farmer in my area had to put one of his horses down after its leg was shot off by a hunter from Calgary. After shooting the horses leg off the hunters tracks drove up to the horse as it lay there in agony still alive. They left the animal there alive and drove off. The farmer found his horse hours later still alive and put the animal out of it misery. The hunters were later found and charged. How does this happen. Why would they not tell the horseowner.

This is right up there with the Wolf killing contest..

[KegRiver]

It's real easy to judge from behind a computer screen, not so much in the real world.

I have never shot at anything I mistakenly misidentified nor do I know anyone who has, no, , , , no, wait a minute. I take that back.

I have. And I was not alone at the time. There were four of us and we took turns trying to knock down what we were convinced was a living target, and what we were hunting.
Turns out we were all wrong on both counts. We mistakenly murdered a twig.
Every one of us had ten or more years of hunting behind us and fifteen or more years of identifying that particular target. We were not beginners.

Yeah it's pretty hard to mistake a Moose for a Cow, a person or anything other then a Moose, or the other way round, if you have seen hundreds of Moose.

But if your outdoor experience consists of a season or two of trying to fill a tag and a couple of trips to Banff, then maybe it isn't so easy.

How about when what we are looking at is coloured much like our intended target, the light is poor, the object we are looking at is sitting or standing in an odd fashion to what we are familiar with?

I don't think I would ever misidentify anything as big as a human to the point I would shoot at the wrong target, if it were something that big or bigger. But I wouldn't rule it out either.

So do we kill hunting by excluding beginners or do we give them a little understanding and a hand?

And while we are at it, how about those with a bit more experience but not quiet enough. How about those with vision problems that they may not be aware of? How about those who think they know when really they don't?

Isn't it enough to let the law do it's job and encourage people to seek guidance when they are starting out, or when they make mistakes?

Must we use a hammer to drive home a thumb tack?

To be frank I feel much safer around people who think it is possible to make such a mistake then I would around people who believe that they would never mistake their target and shoot at the wrong thing.

Overconfidence leads to many a serious mistake. Over caution has to the best of my knowledge never lead to such a result.

Although the only target I can remember misidentifying turned out to be a twig with some dry leaves on it, that I and my companions believed was a rabbit, I would rather believe I could make the same mistake on a much larger object.

I figure that way I will always look for a person, a cow, or a horse in what I think may be a Moose. If I'm looking for a Moose and expecting to see a Moose, then I'm in big trouble.

For me, the same principal applies to all my hunting, expect to make a mistake, look for what you don't believe is there, and maybe you won't get fooled. The moment you (I) think I have it all figured out, then I'm in big trouble and maybe so is everyone around me.

Oh yes, and that is partly why I prefer to hunt alone and far from others.

[ram crazy]

Use some bino's think first shoot after, if you can't tell the difference between a buck and human with bino's its time to hang up the rifle and take up something new. this is why people get shot, buck fever and movement and BAM someones dead and you thought you saw a deer.

Wow, color blind hunter? Low light 150 yards and already poor eyesight running around shooting....I hope its some private land you have locked up so knowone get hurts.

You can't say that someone might get there shorts in a knot!!!

[grinr]

It's real easy to judge from behind a computer screen, not so much in the real world.

I have never shot at anything I mistakenly misidentified nor do I know anyone who has, no, , , , no, wait a minute. I take that back.

I have. And I was not alone at the time. There were four of us and we took turns trying to knock down what we were convinced was a living target, and what we were hunting.
Turns out we were all wrong on both counts. We mistakenly murdered a twig.
Every one of us had ten or more years of hunting behind us and fifteen or more years of identifying that particular target. We were not beginners.

Yeah it's pretty hard to mistake a Moose for a Cow, a person or anything other then a Moose, or the other way round, if you have seen hundreds of Moose.

But if your outdoor experience consists of a season or two of trying to fill a tag and a couple of trips to Banff, then maybe it isn't so easy.

How about when what we are looking at is coloured much like our intended target, the light is poor, the object we are looking at is sitting or standing in
an odd fashion to what we are familiar with?

I don't think I would ever misidentify anything as big as a human to the point I would shoot at the wrong target, if it were something that big or bigger. But I wouldn't rule it out either.

So do we kill hunting by excluding beginners or do we give them a little understanding and a hand?

And while we are at it, how about those with a bit more experience but not quiet enough. How about those with vision problems that they may not be aware of? How about those who think they know when really they don't?

Isn't it enough to let the law do it's job and encourage people to seek guidance when they are starting out, or when they make mistakes?

Must we use a hammer to drive home a thumb tack?

To be frank I feel much safer around people who think it is possible to make such a mistake then I would around people who believe that they would never mistake their target and shoot at the wrong thing.

Overconfidence leads to many a serious mistake. Over caution has to the best of my knowledge never lead to such a result.

Although the only target I can remember misidentifying turned out to be a twig with some dry leaves on it, that I and my companions believed was a rabbit, I would rather believe I could make the same mistake on a much larger object.

I figure that way I will always look for a person, a cow, or a horse in what I think may be a Moose. If I'm looking for a Moose and expecting to see a Moose, then I'm in big trouble.

For me, the same principal applies to all my hunting, expect to make a mistake, look for what you don't believe is there, and maybe you won't get fooled. The moment you (I) think I have it all figured out, then I'm in big trouble and maybe so is everyone around me.

Oh yes, and that is partly why I prefer to hunt alone and far from others.


Post of the year nominee^^

[C & C]

It's real easy to judge from behind a computer screen, not so much in the real world.

But if your outdoor experience consists of a season or two of trying to fill a tag and a couple of trips to Banff, then maybe it isn't so easy.

How about when what we are looking at is coloured much like our intended target, the light is poor, the object we are looking at is sitting or standing in an odd fashion to what we are familiar with?

I don't think I would ever misidentify anything as big as a human to the point I would shoot at the wrong target, if it were something that big or bigger. But I wouldn't rule it out either.

So do we kill hunting by excluding beginners or do we give them a little understanding and a hand?

And while we are at it, how about those with a bit more experience but not quiet enough. How about those with vision problems that they may not be aware of? How about those who think they know when really they don't?

Isn't it enough to let the law do it's job and encourage people to seek guidance when they are starting out, or when they make mistakes?

Must we use a hammer to drive home a thumb tack?

To be frank I feel much safer around people who think it is possible to make such a mistake then I would around people who believe that they would never mistake their target and shoot at the wrong thing.

Overconfidence leads to many a serious mistake. Over caution has to the best of my knowledge never lead to such a result.

Although the only target I can remember misidentifying turned out to be a twig with some dry leaves on it, that I and my companions believed was a rabbit, I would rather believe I could make the same mistake on a much larger object.

I figure that way I will always look for a person, a cow, or a horse in what I think may be a Moose. If I'm looking for a Moose and expecting to see a Moose, then I'm in big trouble.

For me, the same principal applies to all my hunting, expect to make a mistake, look for what you don't believe is there, and maybe you won't get fooled. The moment you (I) think I have it all figured out, then I'm in big trouble and maybe so is everyone around me.

Oh yes, and that is partly why I prefer to hunt alone and far from others.

IS it responsible for a new hunter to venture out, hunt hard conditions such as low light or anytime else there’s poor visibility?

Is it responsible to be color blind, venture out with iron sights and shoot at dark blob at 150 yards in low light with no bino’s?

I am not trying to say people can't/shouldn't hunt but I say they need to be responsible. Target identification shouldn’t be that hard if everyone was responsible and came to grips with the limitations at the time. Maybe a nice clear sunny day iron sights are perfectly fine at 150 yards but in last or first light it’s going to be a dark moving blob.

Same for a new hunter, be responsible and hunt when it’s easier to see your target. You might burn a tag or 2 when you start out but it might also give you the experience to start identifying targets easier in harder conditions.

I also don’t think there is an issue of overconfidence here, I have walked around many corners and thought holy crap look at that deer to raise my bino’s and see it’s a stump with antlers. I just choose to look first and shoot second and if I miss my opportunity because I needed to glass is first so be it.

[hunterfisher]

So it continues about who should shoot, when to shoot, where to shoot, what to shoot at and so on. We get it already. You can't drive home the point if some people aren't reading it. Pretty much all if us on here get it and its a quarrel between the people in here who think they know how to explain it to its best. Write a book or publish an article like MANY many others have done. Stop beating a dead horse ( huh I think this thread had something to do with a horse). Lol

[Rhino81]

So it continues about who should shoot, when to shoot, where to shoot, what to shoot at and so on. We get it already. You can't drive home the point if some people aren't reading it. Pretty much all if us on here get it and its a quarrel between the people in here who think they know how to explain it to its best. Write a book or publish an article like MANY many others have done. Stop beating a dead horse ( huh I think this thread had something to do with a horse)LolI've gotta say Gerald, this t thread was to bring the fact that this actually happens to light. I didn't realize it would have people defending the fact that it has happens and can happen to anyone. Also some were. Questioning my integrity as thought this event may never acctually have taken place. Many others were just so angry that this had happened to a couple of city hunters that they side stepped the point of the thread, which is that a horse died, and last I checked you can't buy a tag for one of those. The fact is that this acctually happened and I don't think it can happen to everyone, but the key word is think.

[walking buffalo]

Rhino,

I'm pretty sure that as the OP, You can edit the title of the thread. :)

[hunterfisher]

I see where your coming from Rick. I just see this quite often in here when someone makes a posting about a legitimate topic or occurrence and it just veers off into something else. I feel for the guy who lost his horse and I know that it will probably happen again but some people are just ignorant to the fact and maybe a little trigger happy. Do they read these posts? Maybe maybe not. I don't condone this style of hunting but i wouldn't punish people for trying. If someone wants to learn to hunt; good in them but they need time, patience and training. I don't think by going on line and writing and exam qualifies you to be an experienced hunter nor if you go in and do a weekend training coarse. It's the beginning and in time you learn these things but if you grow up around hunters ; most of this comes as second nature. I agree with what your saying its just that I don't think the point will be drivin in by some people arguing between themselves on here. Hopefully some of the newbies read this and learn from the posts but you never know.

[albertadave]

I'm still waiting to hear how they knew these were "city" hunters. I get pi$$ed at this common statement.

So do I (and I don't live in a city, haven't for a very long time). No doubt, there's "citiots" out breaking the law and causing trouble every year, but two of the absolute worst "hunters" I know (I'm talking shooting from the road, shooting after dark, trespassing, "tag-sharing", drunk-hunting, meat wasting, poaching retards) grew up in the country, and have never lived in the city.

[bat119]

I was hunting by porcupine plain sask I was told a story ;
a local hunter in his eighties saw a moose coming towards him on a cutline and fired dead center. Turned out it was another hunter on a quad with two gun cases, the bullet hit the engine killing the quad dead. The older hunter apoligized then wrote out a cheque for the quad, the hunter drove into town cashed the cheque then went straight to the RCMP. The old man was fined and was prohlbited owning firearms they both lived in the same small town and knew each other their whole lives, everyone from town thought it was for best.