........

[Deer Hunter]

I put together the 2010 and 2011 resident/non-resident draw and outfitter allocations for antlered mule deer in the 400 series WMU's and compared them to each other as a percent in the two graphs below. There are no landowner tags issued in the 400's.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj188/AlbertaFleaBags/New%202013/2010400MD_zpsee91d43e.png
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj188/AlbertaFleaBags/New%202013/2011400MD_zps9f61e6a5.png

Outfitter allocations for the general zones not shown above were as follows.

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj188/AlbertaFleaBags/New%202013/400GenAllocations_zpsea1e572c.png

Then I looked at the archery harvest data from ERSD's paper "Proposed Wildlife Management Change ANTLERED MULE DEER ARCHERY TO DRAW - AESRD"

http://www.bowhunters.ca/files/Download/Antlered%20MUDE%20Special%20Licence%20for%20Archer y.pdf

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj188/AlbertaFleaBags/New%202013/harvestdata_zpsf5287c8c.jpg

Which clearly shows several 400 WMU's having more than the allowed 15% archery harvest based on hunter surveys. And is the entire basis of ERSD proposing the mule deer archery draw. But the same WMU's have outfitters as the majority of the tags.
Something doesnt add up here.

[pottymouth]

I almost fell out of my seat last night when you brought the info by. Some of those are at 80+%. that's crazy!! Considering that we believe that outfitters should be somewhere in around the 10% range, according to esrd.

Really easy to interpret the data, when you have it and when you put it together like you have done. Thanx Deer hunter. Thanx for the good discussion as well. Let me know where I can help.

[sakogreywolf]

Thanx Deer Hunter. Shocking numbers for sure.

[Sakoman]

Those are really shocking numbers!!

[wind drift]

I'm speculating that the high outfitter allocation percentages have to do with that 5 year locked in tag allocation they have. Would be nice if that was changed to year-by-year or done some other way so that the outfitter allocation was adjusted in proportion to the overall annual harvest goal.

Think APOS would ever go there without it becoming heated and political? Only way it would fly is if resident hunters became organised and rallied to pose a more weighty political force than outfitters.

[slough shark]

I've been saying this for the last while about this whole archery mule deer thing, if we were to do a province wide chart of archery harvested animals and outfitter harvested archery animals (at least for antlered animals) we would be below the 15% in the majority of zones. Most bowhunters I know go out and end up harvesting one of their draw tags for does... They try for the big buck but are generally unsuccessful. Sure there is some success on the bucks but to be honest I rarely see it.

[BuckHunterBowen]

O no!!!!

[LongDraw]

From the APOS website;

"In Alberta you are Guaranteed Tags, no waiting for draws. A hunt in Alberta is a hunt in the home of World Class Trophy Hunting. The world record Bighorn Sheep, Non-Typical Mule Deer, and Pope & Young Whitetail are all from Alberta."

http://www.apos.ab.ca/species-available

And yet we have one group of resident hunters trying, successfully to reduce a general opportunity that we had until this year. Sad.

The board of APOS must be quietly laughing at us residents. They have business agreements with SRD to guarantee tags and here we have residents trying to REDUCE resident opportunity. again, sad..

Time for the resident groups to band together and play hard ball with SRD, as APOS has been doing all along. Seems to be working out for them, not so well for the residents..

[shedcrazy]

Wow...those are some crazy numbers.

[trophyboy]

Yet another example of the "Average Joe" getting bent over. I hate to be a pessimist but, my guess is it will only get worse for the residents and better for the outfitters. Oh well, no one said life was fair.

[TangoKilo]

Ok,
So we have the numbers, and we agree that there is a problem...

How do we change this???

[packhuntr]

I agree those numbers should be ironed back into line. I also agree with Longdraw. Shes pretty sad state of affairs with residents attempting to consume thier own like this archery mule deer situation has shown. Whats next,,, joe resident that can IF THEY CHOOSE, hunt trophy bighorn on gen tags but due to laziness attempt taking a run at guys that derive pleasure from these logistically demanding, challenging and adventurous opportunities. Why are there merely 2000 sheep tags sold a year? Is it laziness? What is it? Whos next? Guys gonna take a run at elk hunters? Southern guys gonna take a run at northern and west country boys because thier rifle hunts start in september and south country doesnt. I think a big portion of residents need to check themselves. Its embarrasing, and worse yet its counterproductive and destructive.

[missingtwo]

someone needs to give their head a shake.

[pottymouth]

Ok,
So we have the numbers, and we agree that there is a problem...

How do we change this???

Write letters, to Mla's, the Minister, ! If your associated with a group that's part of the Agmag, push them to step up to the plate. Ask them the tough questions and get them to get thjose answers. Do it through Email, and have a paper trail, then share....

So far all we know is that an AO member asked for the info and got it. Then Deer Hunter has been kind enough to put it in easy to read format. Ironically, as far as we know, other than maybe Apos, no other group has this info....quite sad !

One voice does make a difference, proven with the info we got. thanks guys!

[Snap Shot]

Way to go to the net Deer Hunter!! Seeing these #'s is actually shocking to say the least. I know im going to be doing some major emailing, this is an outrage and changes are needed in a positive way to manage alberta's ungulates.

It also makes me wonder what #'s are for other species.??

[LongDraw]

Keep in mind when writing MLA's, and SRD that we have a couple different issues, although they are very inter-woven;

- The imbalance we have in many WMU's between resident and non-resident opportunity.

-The way that SRD is managing ungulate numbers may be based on flawed data, and then extrapolating it forward will make a problem where there is none (my opinion)

-Residents receive the full burden of cut backs, reduced opportunity, longer draw waits.

-Non-residents can pay and hunt all resident draw species every year, and if there are allocation cut backs the non-resident may have to pay more to hunt every year. They still have the same opportunity.

-All flawed data aside that SRD is basing resident cut backs on, the one absolute number that needs no extrapolation is the imbalance between resident and non-resident opportunity. There is no fudging these numbers, they are what they are, and they favor APOS and the non-resident.

It is time for residents to take the resource back until a time where wise management has proven that there is a surplus for us to sell and create a business for outfitters.

I believe that any species on draw proves there is more demand than supply for RESIDENTS , and until a time that there is a surplus (no draw) there should be no non-resident opportunity.

[walking buffalo]

I'm speculating that the high outfitter allocation percentages have to do with that 5 year locked in tag allocation they have. Would be nice if that was changed to year-by-year or done some other way so that the outfitter allocation was adjusted in proportion to the overall annual harvest goal.

Think APOS would ever go there without it becoming heated and political? Only way it would fly is if resident hunters became organised and rallied to pose a more weighty political force than outfitters.



This is exactly why the allocation percentages have become so out of balance in some WMUs . In this case, the 400 series face predator mortality issues, resulting in lowered Resident licences. On the prairies, winter mortality has played a similar role in reducing the available quota for hunters, and again, Residents are the only user group that are having their opportunity reduced for conservation sake. Conservation concern cutbacks are being laid completely on the shoulders of Resident hunters!

As these data graphs for other years and other species continue to be released, a dramatic tale will be told.


Irrespective of the actual number of Allocations given to APOS, there needs to be at least two major changes to the use of the allocations.

1) Outfitter Allocations must be capped by WMU, not SMA.

2) Outfitter Allocations must be capped Yearly to an accepted percentage of Licences issued in that year.


These two changes to the Outfitter Allocation agreement would eliminate the issue of Outfitters having an excessive number of licences in an individual WMU and keep the Species allocation in a balanced state regardless of changes to the available hunting quota each year.

[rem338win]

You mean a get off our asses and do something about it? Good luck........

Pessimism aside, join the AFGA, elect some officials that are savvy, and support them buy flooring and working with them to create the presence that makes that body the largest stakeholder in this mess and then start cleaning it up. Divided we fall....

[ishootbambi]

You mean a get off our asses and do something about it? ....

sad but true. everyone is willing to beetch about it on AO.....but too few are willing to type a reply to someone that actually matters.

[H380]

Thanx again for the startling info Deer Hunter .. Too bad you don't work for ESRD and show them how to interpret their own stats .. As for e-mailing and letter writing ISB has it on the head ... don't write, then don't complain .

[habman12]

Well done putting this together!
I still struggle with the numbers.... Is it me or does the archery harvest numbers seem out of whack..... 302 for instance 43 bucks taken with a bow?? 305 --- 270 taken?? I take my bow for a walk every year and have noticed an increase in hunters out there running around with bows, but apparently they are very efficient !!....... Or the numbers are somehow misinterpreted.

[Ultimate Predator]

Those r insane numbers i think we should let the apos disciplinary commity get to the bottom off this another big joke

[Outcast]

It almost seems like those harvest numbers include doe's and even then it seems impossible!

[flyguyd]

Well done putting this together!
I still struggle with the numbers.... Is it me or does the archery harvest numbers seem out of whack..... 302 for instance 43 bucks taken with a bow?? 305 --- 270 taken?? I take my bow for a walk every year and have noticed an increase in hunters out there running around with bows, but apparently they are very efficient !!....... Or the numbers are somehow misinterpreted.

Seems right to me:thinking-006:

Although I keep hearing archery success rates are very low:sHa_sarcasticlol::scared0018:

[H380]

Well done putting this together!
I still struggle with the numbers.... Is it me or does the archery harvest numbers seem out of whack..... 302 for instance 43 bucks taken with a bow?? 305 --- 270 taken?? I take my bow for a walk every year and have noticed an increase in hunters out there running around with bows, but apparently they are very efficient !!....... Or the numbers are somehow misinterpreted.

I agree .. such a nice round number ..

[Outcast]

Does table 3 include non resident harvest? I know for a fact that a pile of the non resident tags are filled via archery tackle in places where the majority of the resident population cannot touch.

[slough shark]

Is there a place where one is able to find out the outfitter allocations for other zones particularly in some of the southern foothills and the 100/200 zones, as well as some of their harvest numbers? I suspect this may be the reason a number of these areas are going to draw for residents...

[Lefty-Canuck]

Does table 3 include non resident harvest? I know for a fact that a pile of the non resident tags are filled via archery tackle in places where the majority of the resident population cannot touch.

That is a good point....how many archery tags are counted in the survey that are taken by non residents?....under hunter hosts?

LC

[Outcast]

Seems right to me:thinking-006:

Although I keep hearing archery success rates are very low:sHa_sarcasticlol::scared0018:
ur productive, aren't you...........

[Outcast]

Lets look at the data from WMU 132....

In 2011 5 tags were drawn
In 2010 11 tags drawn
In 2009 16 tags drawn
Total tags = 32

The data in table 3 says that the total harvest was 70 of which 21 were killed by archery. This leaves 49 harvested by rifle?

Which answers my earlier question of what and whom they are including in the data. It's BS!

If they include the allocations and landowner tags in this data and that is what they are using to define the resident draw......WTF!

[Outcast]

Seems right to me:thinking-006:

Although I keep hearing archery success rates are very low:sHa_sarcasticlol::scared0018:
just for you......in 305 a total of 520 tags were drawn from 2009-2011. Look at the table you were so sure about and try to see through the wool!

[packhuntr]

I made note of that as well Outcast. Some pretty big numbers for some zones that simply dont have the stated resident tag representation. Srd and thier self induced problems and fraudulent management practices can go pound sand.

[flyguyd]

ur productive, aren't you...........

My perspective is slightly different, ive lived and hunted in 305 for 40 yrs brother

Pretty easy to assume stuff from up by cowtown :thinking-006:

[Outcast]

"Sorry, can't believe the numbers are that distorted" was what I would expect from someone that is truly concerned. Guess you're more interested in hacking on your Alberta res's rather than nipping the problem in the arse! At least we know we can count on you!

P.S You would be surprised at how well I know SW alberta and the very limited amount of time I spend there.......

[flyguyd]

"Sorry, can't believe the numbers are that distorted" was what I would expect from someone that is truly concerned. Guess you're more interested in hacking on your Alberta res's rather than nipping the problem in the arse! At least we know we can count on you!

P.S You would be surprised at how well I know SW alberta and the very limited amount of time I spend there.......

Awe muffin , dont get your panties in a bunch just because my opinion differs from yours.:)

I am concerned, thats why i have no problem with the draw . Some zones have a much higher archery harvest than is mandated:thinking-006: some dont . 305 is one of the ones that does. Im not niaeve enough to have any faith in SRDs numbers , i do however trust my own eyes and experience.
The bulk of the problem are the outfitters ,at least down at the south end and archery participation has increased dramatically in the last 5-7 yrs as the thought of harvesting a big mulie every year and avoiding the draw is far too tempting.
Opening week of archery season down here is comparable to opening week of rifle,which explaines why i dont go out those days. Combat hunting is not really my thing

[Deer Hunter]

Other WMU's are in here for 2010, with the corresponding landowner tags.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showpost.php?p=1757047&postcount=203

[pottymouth]

Now for all those who said its just bowhunters crying, I hope we can see what I've been saying all along . This is an average joe resident hunter problem. After this it will resident general tags that will be on the block....write your letters

[pottymouth]

Other WMU's are in here for 2010, with the corresponding landowner tags.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showpost.php?p=1757047&postcount=203

Hey buddy , maybe you should re post that , in its own thread as well. It kinda got lost in that thread.

[Outcast]

Awe muffin , dont get your panties in a bunch just because my opinion differs from yours.:)

I am concerned, thats why i have no problem with the draw . Some zones have a much higher archery harvest than is mandated:thinking-006: some dont . 305 is one of the ones that does. Im not niaeve enough to have any faith in SRDs numbers , i do however trust my own eyes and experience.
The bulk of the problem are the outfitters ,at least down at the south end and archery participation has increased dramatically in the last 5-7 yrs as the thought of harvesting a big mulie every year and avoiding the draw is far too tempting.
Opening week of archery season down here is comparable to opening week of rifle,which explaines why i dont go out those days. Combat hunting is not really my thing
Think about what you are saying for second before you type it. You say you're concerned and that is why you have no problem supporting the draw.

If the information is misconstrued and the the archery harvest is largely nonresident outfitter allocations would you still support the draw that removes tags and opportunity from residents?

Having a draw in archery on residents is not going to change what the outfitters do.

[Ilikemoosemeat]

This has got to be rectified! LetterS sent:fighting0030:

[flyguyd]

Think about what you are saying for second before you type it. You say you're concerned and that is why you have no problem supporting the draw.

If the information is misconstrued and the the archery harvest is largely nonresident outfitter allocations would you still support the draw that removes tags and opportunity from residents?

Having a draw in archery on residents is not going to change what the outfitters do.

If you read my whole post instead of just the first sentence, you'll see it says (The bulk of the problem is the outfitters) However unregulated archery hunting for mulies is not helping.

Sorry for the slight hijack Deerhunter
,great information you've put together though ; thanks

[walking buffalo]

Does table 3 include non resident harvest? I know for a fact that a pile of the non resident tags are filled via archery tackle in places where the majority of the resident population cannot touch.

That percantage of harvest by various user groups seems to be a great unknown. (Residents, Non-resident Canadians Hunter hosted, Landowners, Outfitters)

I'm sure the Archery Harvest chart includes Hunter Hosted Non-Resident Canadians, it may even contain Landowner and Outfitter Allocation harvest. :scared:

This is why we are producing these graphs. In discussions with various AGMAG members, no one seems to have compiled the information, including ESRD. :confused:


In all fairness, I understand that ESRD AF&W is understaffed and underfunded. These people have limited resources to get the work done. However, I have offered volunteer time and pried for the information to do the comparisons, with little enthusiasm from AF&W to accept the help.

I am still actively pursuing Allocation information. It is getting harder to access the data, which has been legally determined by FOIP to be PUBLIC INFORMATION! I will continue on this hunt until all tags are filled, soup will not be served as the main course. :)

[IR_mike]

I am still actively pursuing Allocation information. It is getting harder to access the data, which has been legally determined by FOIP to be PUBLIC INFORMATION! I will continue on this hunt until all tags are filled, soup will not be served as the main course. :)

Thanks for your time and efforts. :)

[Outcast]

Thanks for your time and efforts. :)
X2 Can't thank people like you enough!