Archers Losing Pronghorn Draw Option

[packhuntr]

I was thumbing through a recent archery issues discussion on another hunting forum, (ab sportsmen), and noted mention of the reality that archers may lose the ability to apply both ways. Is this a reality, anyone know what is on the table?

[Icefisher2885]

Good grief...if this is true and comes to fruition, we may as well just prepare to not hunt in this province anymore. What species will be next?

[pottymouth]

Yup, a division is coming.

Every animal will eventually be on a archery draw. Hunters will not be able to apply for both, archery and general in the same year, for a species. ( like antelope is now) You will have to choose what you are, a bowhunter or rifle.........

When bowhunters were saying that this is about reduced opportunity, nothing more, the against didn't want to listen...... Have fun, your gonna get what you wanted! And you can only blame yourselves!

[sakogreywolf]

:angry3:

[albertadave]

What are they ultimately trying to accomplish with this? One can only assume that they will do the same thing with mule deer.

[209x50]

Why would we segregate rifle and bow? Who is in favor of this?

[Dark Wing]

Wouldn't the seperate draws actually reduce wait times for archery and maybe even rifle hunters ? I would imagine the majority of the bow hunters also apply for the rifle draw.

[elkamaholic]

Why would we segregate rifle and bow? Who is in favor of this?

I am in favor, 'cause I have 5 or 6 points on each!

[BuckCuller]

It seems like it doesn't really matter what anyone thinks SRD will do what SRD wants to do all you can do is voice your opinions and suggestions through organizations such as Alberta fish and game association.:snapoutofit:

[Ultimate Predator]

Every owhunter in alberta should be joined up with the aba alberta bowhunter association they have done tremendous work to help bowhunting in alberta join up 30 bucks a year numbers r power

[lake side]

I refuse to join them as they are opposed to certain types of equipment. Not the group for me.





LS

[LA_bowhunter]

I can believe that would be on the agenda for SRD. As the number of hunters continues to increase in Alberta, I can see them spreading the tags out to spread the oppurtunity. As long as they are reaching their harvest goals, it is very possible.

[BuckCuller]

Every owhunter in alberta should be joined up with the aba alberta bowhunter association they have done tremendous work to help bowhunting in alberta join up 30 bucks a year numbers r power

I think all ABA members should be members of the AFGA. It would work so much better if we were all united. Like you said numbers.

[walking buffalo]

I was thumbing through a recent archery issues discussion on another hunting forum, (ab sportsmen), and noted mention of the reality that archers may lose the ability to apply both ways. Is this a reality, anyone know what is on the table?


Well done Pack, you have revealed the next battle that we (those who want to maintain Resident Hunter Opportunity) have on our hands. :happy0034:

Yes, this concept is a reality. The idea of having Hunters divided into either Bowhunter or Riflehunter for the draw system has been floated, and is on the table.



If implemented, a person would only be able to apply for an Archery draw OR a Rifle draw in a given year. This system would be applicable to Antelope, Mule Deer, Moose, Elk, Sheep....




This would effect EVERY Hunter, The comment "archers may lose the ability to apply both ways" is half right. Rifle hunters would lose the ability to apply for both opportunities as well. ;)


I see this idea as a great divider, one that will greatly reduce Hunter opportunity, Except for the bowhunters that Only hunt with a bow.

For those who use both tools, and those who use a rifle, this concept will greatly increase internal competition for licences.




From what I can gather, this idea has been introduced and is definately championed by the ABA.
Maybe it was someone else's brainstorm, please fill us in if someone knows differently.


Now why would ABA want to have a segregated draw system? :thinking-006:

[ishootbambi]

Why would we segregate rifle and bow? Who is in favor of this?

i sure am. its simple math for eff sakes. like it or not, there are more hunters than game in this province and its only getting worse. just as allowing hunhters to apply for both antlerless and antlered moose/elk would effectively double wait times, allowing for hunters to apply for both archery and rifle would do the same. for all those complaining about lost opportunity....what do you suggest? there isnt enough game to go around, so something needs to be done. separating archery and rifle draws only makes sense to me and seems long overdue even. if you like bowhunting, apply for the archery tag and my guess is you will hunt a heck of a lot more often than rifle guys will for most species. seems to me this is the best way to have the most hunters in the field while maintaining a harvest rate that sustains healthy populations. i look to mule deer to be the best example at the moment. they are in nowhere near the condition they were a decade ago. im not talking about the winter from two years ago....im talking about the disgustingly high antlered tag numbers that screwed it up royally. the status quo isnt working and this seems to be a first step in the right direction. im not saying srd is gonna do it right....but they have clearly been doing it wrong....

[ishootbambi]

Now why would ABA want to have a segregated draw system? :thinking-006:

i dont know if this is their answer or not....but it seems obvious to me. it ensures that archers will get their fair share of tags. it is possible that if all hunters are lumped together, there may be ZERO archery hunters in any given year for any given wmu. segregated draws guarantee that there will be a set number of archery hunters getting to hunt.

i hope it happens. from what ive seen with say....elk in arizona....it works quite well. when something desirable has limited quantity, then limiting those seeking it only makes sense. lower hunter success with archery gear will allow more hunters in the field.

[aulrich]

It's a bad idea, if they want to kill the general archery season , then just kill it. One draw, first part archery, then maybe BP and then rifle. use what you want.

The concept is so 30 years ago it's silly, and a serious step backwards.

[Deer Hunter]

It's too bad that the Aba thinks this way. It is limiting resident opportunity I agree.
There is plenty to go around as long as residents are seen as the priority.

[bowtech3006]

I'm with you ISB.

[sakogreywolf]

ISB you are level headed and well informed and I agree with your views 95% of the time. On this, I respectfully disagree.

Most who hunt with a bow also hunt with a rifle and I would think if you had to choose one or the other for antelope, most would choose a rifle for such a limited hunt. My assumption is that they would have to pull tags from the archery hunt to add to the rifle hunt, but due to higher success with rifle the increase (say 60 archery tags to 15 new rifle tags) would have little effect on wait times for rifle draws. As well the assumed decrease in archery draws would in my mind not decrease wait times for archery tags either.

In the end I feel that there would be no measureable benefit to either group. Instead the only thing accomplished, would be to take away oppurtunity. I suspect if demand for an archery hunt got low enough, it may be taken away entirely. If that were to happen, then I suppose we could only hope that you could use your bow in early season and rifle in late season when drawn every blue moon.

Perhaps my assumptions are wrong or I am missing something. Who knows, maybe I am just a fustrated hunter who is not seeing things clearly.:confused:

[C Taylor]

I have only been applying for the archery draw anyways so I'm seeing this as a bonus for me. I shouldn't have to wait 4+ years if the rifle hunters arnt putting in the archery just because they could. If they had a archery only draw for moose in the 200s zones I'd be drawn sooner than now. Mule deer I'm not sure how I feel about the draws. If I had a better chance of getting drawn than rifle and if I could hunt nov I wouldn't complain

[pottymouth]

ISB you are level headed and well informed and I agree with your views 95% of the time. On this, I respectfully disagree.

Most who hunt with a bow also hunt with a rifle and I would think if you had to choose one or the other for antelope, most would choose a rifle for such a limited hunt. My assumption is that they would have to pull tags from the archery hunt to add to the rifle hunt, but due to higher success with rifle the increase (say 60 archery tags to 15 new rifle tags) would have little effect on wait times for rifle draws. As well the assumed decrease in archery draws would in my mind not decrease wait times for archery tags either.

In the end I feel that there would be no measureable benefit to either group. Instead the only thing accomplished, would be to take away oppurtunity. I suspect if demand for an archery hunt got low enough, it may be taken away entirely. If that were to happen, then I suppose we could only hope that you could use your bow in early season and rifle in late season when drawn every blue moon.


Your bang on, my friend!

According to ABA, 95% of their members are dual weapon hunters. Start doing the number crunching, and forcast the trends, and you might be suprised and what you find.

[packhuntr]

For those of us that arent strict archers, this is a bad one. I have zero problem with waiting for a pronghorn tag, but do love all about them and cherish all opportunities to persue them no matter how few. I see no reason why there can be no archery tags available to all residents of this province for not just these antelope, but mule deer, sheep etc etc. Having to fight to keep something as traditional and socially acceptable in this province today just blows me away. We should be promoting archery to all now and for tomorrow. This segregation and alienation of archers is going way too far. What next?? Has the boot completely fallen yet with this ESRD, or is there more to come yet?

[Sharp Stick]

ISB,

Before you go throwing the ABA under the bus please get your "facts" straight...

The ABA never said or asked for a "pick your weapon draw", what was asked for was a seperate archery draw so archers and rifle hunters are not lumped into one draw...big difference!!!

At the AGMAG meeting it was brought up by SRD to have MD on draw for archers, lumping all hunters (rifle and archery) into one draw code. This would increase wait times for both archers and rifle hunters, ABA brought up the idea of a seperate archery draw similar to the antelope draw is now...AFGA, APOS and a couple others agreed with this idea because it makes the most sense for all hunters. Like antelope you could apply for both but it would set seperate allocations for archery and rifle.

It was NEVER brought up as a "pick your weapon" draw by ABA...please get your facts straight before posting info, it hurts all of us!!!

[sakogreywolf]

I have only been applying for the archery draw anyways so I'm seeing this as a bonus for me. I shouldn't have to wait 4+ years if the rifle hunters arnt putting in the archery just because they could. If they had a archery only draw for moose in the 200s zones I'd be drawn sooner than now. Mule deer I'm not sure how I feel about the draws. If I had a better chance of getting drawn than rifle and if I could hunt nov I wouldn't complain

Do you think the 20 - 25 thousand rifle hunters who apply for trophy antelope only and have to wait 7 - 10 years (probably longer in future) would allow approx 1,000 (or less) pure bow hunters to hunt every year or two for antelope? I would think the archery tags would be cut dramatically with no benefit to the pure archery hunters. Speculation on my part admitted.

[C Taylor]

I'm not dancing with joy over any of srd ideas but if it's a choice of being lumped in with all the rifle hunters in one draw or being on a separate draw I would sooner be separate. When the archery draws first started the area I put in for was a 100% chance of getting drawn now I'm waiting 5 or more years. Lump me in with rifle hunters and it's at least 8 years. Personally I like how mule deer was last year. I don't mind how antelope was or is. Moose in the 200 zones are not set up to be archery friendly at all.
By the looks of the thread on outfitter antelope. Resident archery is already getting the shaft when it comes to tag numbers

[ishootbambi]

ISB,

Before you go throwing the ABA under the bus please get your "facts" straight...

The ABA never said or asked for a "pick your weapon draw", what was asked for was a seperate archery draw so archers and rifle hunters are not lumped into one draw...big difference!!!


It was NEVER brought up as a "pick your weapon" draw by ABA...please get your facts straight before posting info, it hurts all of us!!!

i never said the ABA asked for this....WB did.

i dont know if this is their answer or not....

i would have thought the words "i dont know" would have covered my thoughts on it. i certainly did not throw the ABA under the bus. i am not only a member, but a guy that volunteers some time to that group on a regular basis.

as for the rest of my post, the answer still fits as my best guess, and the most likely reason for what they asked for. i still dont know that for sure though....just my guess.

[Pincherguy]

I am in favor, 'cause I have 5 or 6 points on each!

Whys should a hunter be able be get two draws in one year. or one this year and one in the next season? This may be why they are thinking about it.

[Pincherguy]

It's a bad idea, if they want to kill the general archery season , then just kill it. One draw, first part archery, then maybe BP and then rifle. use what you want.

The concept is so 30 years ago it's silly, and a serious step backwards.

I don't think they want to kill the achery season they just want to make sure the animal population is not depleated. They should have a primative wearpon season and draw as well, good idea.

[ishootbambi]

Most who hunt with a bow also hunt with a rifle and I would think if you had to choose one or the other for antelope, most would choose a rifle for such a limited hunt. My assumption is that they would have to pull tags from the archery hunt to add to the rifle hunt, but due to higher success with rifle the increase (say 60 archery tags to 15 new rifle tags) would have little effect on wait times for rifle draws. As well the assumed decrease in archery draws would in my mind not decrease wait times for archery tags either.


Perhaps my assumptions are wrong or I am missing something. Who knows, maybe I am just a fustrated hunter who is not seeing things clearly.:confused:

its true that frustration and emotion can cloud judgement....so ill just throw out the numbers that srd has and is going off of. of course there is anger and hostility at the thought of any lost opportunity, but if you can look at the facts for what they are, some sense can be made of it.

going back to 2010....before the killer winter that reduced numbers and hunting opportunity for everyone, there were a total of 383 archery antelope tags available. nobody knows the actual success rate of archers on that hunt, but given what is know about all other species, estimates seem to come in around 15%. argue that number if you like, but thats what we are gonna go with here. that would mean a harvest of about 57 antelope. those 383 tags were sought by 5503 archers.

http://www.mywildalberta.com/Hunting/HuntingDraws/HuntingDrawsReports/DrawsSummaryReport/documents/HuntingArchives/2010/Antelope%20Archery%20Draw%20(Code%2010)-2010.pdf

http://www.mywildalberta.com/Hunting/HuntingDraws/HuntingDrawsReports/DrawsSummaryReport/documents/HuntingArchives/2010/Trophy%20Antelope%20Draw%20(Code%2012)-2010.pdf

from that same year, we saw 25324 rifle hunters seeking 1271 tags. with rifle success running somewhere around 75%, (again arguable, but it seems to be about the number srd is using), that means around 916 antlelope taken.



other numbers known show that 15% of hunters are bowhunters, and 95% of bowhunters also hunt with rifle. that means that of the 25324 guys applying for rifle tags, about 3766 are bowhunters. it also means that of the 5503 archers in the draw, 5228 are also rifle guys.

what isnt known in those numbers is how many of each group would pick one weapon over the other.

given that archers should be getting 15% of the harvest...it seems that the tag number for archery would have been a little low. looks like archery tags should have been quite a bit higher to maintain that 15%.....with 916 going to rifle hunters, archers were light by about 80 goats.

anyway, if they were split, its a given that many guys applying for both draws would have make a choice. of the 5228 hunters in that archery draw that also use a rifle....id estimate that more would initially opt for the rifle tag due to the higher success rate. we are already seeing it with moose, elk and mule draws. archers drawing those tags by majority end up taking their animal with a rifle. cant say for sure, but saying at least half would go rifle only is safe. that would drop the pool of applicants dramatically. at half, that would mean around 3100 guys looking for those 383 tags. with 2614 less archers applying also for the rifle tags, that means instead of 25324 in the pool, it would be down to 22220ish.

yes some guys would be giving up opportunity....namely the 5228 guys in the archery pool that also apply in the rifle draw. many more would be gaining though.....namely the 21560 or so guys that apply for the rifle tags that arent archers.

as a bowhunter, i am giving up something myself....but the numbers show that more gain than lose, and for the greater good, i am in favor of only being able to pick one.

i chose 2010 for the simple reason that tag numbers were closer to long term averages, and the last 2 years have not been. if you look at 2012 numbers you will see similar trends in the hunter numbers though.

there were 6414 applicants for 60 archery tags while 27631 applicants sought 140 tags. the math says archery tag numbers are still less than 15% of harvest, but maybe the more important thing to see is how applicant numbers have risen.

http://www.mywildalberta.com/hunting/HuntingDraws/HuntingDrawsReports/DrawsSummaryReport/documents/HuntingArchives/2012/TrophyAntelopeDrawCode-12-2012.pdf

http://www.mywildalberta.com/hunting/HuntingDraws/HuntingDrawsReports/DrawsSummaryReport/documents/HuntingArchives/2012/AntelopeArcheryDrawCode-10-2012.pdf

thats what ive said before that there simply isnt enough game to go around. opportunity has to decrease in the name of game management.....there is no other option. i dont like it either, but albertas population is rising and game populations arent keeping up with demand.

[walking buffalo]

ISB,

Before you go throwing the ABA under the bus please get your "facts" straight...

The ABA never said or asked for a "pick your weapon draw", what was asked for was a seperate archery draw so archers and rifle hunters are not lumped into one draw...big difference!!!

At the AGMAG meeting it was brought up by SRD to have MD on draw for archers, lumping all hunters (rifle and archery) into one draw code. This would increase wait times for both archers and rifle hunters, ABA brought up the idea of a seperate archery draw similar to the antelope draw is now...AFGA, APOS and a couple others agreed with this idea because it makes the most sense for all hunters. Like antelope you could apply for both but it would set seperate allocations for archery and rifle.

It was NEVER brought up as a "pick your weapon" draw by ABA...please get your facts straight before posting info, it hurts all of us!!!



From the ABA mailout on Mule Deer.

"Separate archery draw regime – we presented strong arguments to implement a separate archery draw for antlered mule deer (and broaden that to other species/WMUs where you now need a draw to bowhunt them in archery seasons). "

My earlier comment is also based on phone conversations with the ABA Pres.



Whether of not ABA was the first to put this on the table, they are now championing the proposal.


What's next? A separate Muzzleloader draw, crossbow draw?

Segragating hunters based on the tool(s) we use will provide no long term benefit to the Hunting community as a whole.

[bowhunter9841]

I hunt with both my bow and rifle. And I don't mind the current draw system. I like how I can hunt the bow season with my draw tag, as well as the rifle season. If they decide to make mule deer Draw only, that's fine by me. SRD will be the ones losing money though, by not having general seasons there will be a lot less tags sold. I bought 4 deer tags this year. One of which was a general mulie tag. I didnt shoot a single deer this fall.

I believe we (resident alberta hunters) would have much more opportunities if we got rid of the outfitters allocated tags, and put non residents on the draw only system! Then have it so non resident aliens have to use the services of an outfitter. And non resident Canadians have a choice of going it alone, or using an outfitter. That would free up a lot more tags. Also, the non resident draws should be limited to certain species.

[sakogreywolf]

its true that frustration and emotion can cloud judgement....so ill just throw out the numbers that srd has and is going off of. of course there is anger and hostility at the thought of any lost opportunity, but if you can look at the facts for what they are, some sense can be made of it.

going back to 2010....before the killer winter that reduced numbers and hunting opportunity for everyone, there were a total of 383 archery antelope tags available. nobody knows the actual success rate of archers on that hunt, but given what is know about all other species, estimates seem to come in around 15%. argue that number if you like, but thats what we are gonna go with here. that would mean a harvest of about 57 antelope. those 383 tags were sought by 5503 archers.

http://www.mywildalberta.com/Hunting/HuntingDraws/HuntingDrawsReports/DrawsSummaryReport/documents/HuntingArchives/2010/Antelope%20Archery%20Draw%20(Code%2010)-2010.pdf

http://www.mywildalberta.com/Hunting/HuntingDraws/HuntingDrawsReports/DrawsSummaryReport/documents/HuntingArchives/2010/Trophy%20Antelope%20Draw%20(Code%2012)-2010.pdf

from that same year, we saw 25324 rifle hunters seeking 1271 tags. with rifle success running somewhere around 75%, (again arguable, but it seems to be about the number srd is using), that means around 916 antlelope taken.



other numbers known show that 15% of hunters are bowhunters, and 95% of bowhunters also hunt with rifle. that means that of the 25324 guys applying for rifle tags, about 3766 are bowhunters. it also means that of the 5503 archers in the draw, 5228 are also rifle guys.

what isnt known in those numbers is how many of each group would pick one weapon over the other.

given that archers should be getting 15% of the harvest...it seems that the tag number for archery would have been a little low. looks like archery tags should have been quite a bit higher to maintain that 15%.....with 916 going to rifle hunters, archers were light by about 80 goats.

anyway, if they were split, its a given that many guys applying for both draws would have make a choice. of the 5228 hunters in that archery draw that also use a rifle....id estimate that more would initially opt for the rifle tag due to the higher success rate. we are already seeing it with moose, elk and mule draws. archers drawing those tags by majority end up taking their animal with a rifle. cant say for sure, but saying at least half would go rifle only is safe. that would drop the pool of applicants dramatically. at half, that would mean around 3100 guys looking for those 383 tags. with 2614 less archers applying also for the rifle tags, that means instead of 25324 in the pool, it would be down to 22220ish.

yes some guys would be giving up opportunity....namely the 5228 guys in the archery pool that also apply in the rifle draw. many more would be gaining though.....namely the 21560 or so guys that apply for the rifle tags that arent archers.

as a bowhunter, i am giving up something myself....but the numbers show that more gain than lose, and for the greater good, i am in favor of only being able to pick one.

i chose 2010 for the simple reason that tag numbers were closer to long term averages, and the last 2 years have not been. if you look at 2012 numbers you will see similar trends in the hunter numbers though.

there were 6414 applicants for 60 archery tags while 27631 applicants sought 140 tags. the math says archery tag numbers are still less than 15% of harvest, but maybe the more important thing to see is how applicant numbers have risen.

http://www.mywildalberta.com/hunting/HuntingDraws/HuntingDrawsReports/DrawsSummaryReport/documents/HuntingArchives/2012/TrophyAntelopeDrawCode-12-2012.pdf

http://www.mywildalberta.com/hunting/HuntingDraws/HuntingDrawsReports/DrawsSummaryReport/documents/HuntingArchives/2012/AntelopeArcheryDrawCode-10-2012.pdf

thats what ive said before that there simply isnt enough game to go around. opportunity has to decrease in the name of game management.....there is no other option. i dont like it either, but albertas population is rising and game populations arent keeping up with demand.

I do see your point. With antelope being extremely susceptible to winter kill and the ever increasing applicants for a small population hunt, perhaps a change (whether it be one draw utilizing both bow then rifle or choosing between seperate draws) may be benifical. Before this change could be made though, I would hope esrd would be compelled to cancel outfitter and non resident tags. Perhaps cancelling outfitter/non res tags would be enough to allow the exsisting system to continue.

[Carson13]

Awesome Thread ;)

Can't wait til they create a crossbow draw and a blackpowder draw! and how about separate shotgun and .22 rifle seasons for birds!

It's about time common sense prevailed... :angry3: