Bird outfitter fined $8050

[hunted]

Wanted to post this for awhile finally had time. In the local Brooks paper this past week a Calgary outfitter plead guilty to wildlife infractions. He left 33 geese and 2 ducks abandoned in a ditch. Then was caught later with 18 additional geese and 14 ducks untagged at a hotel in Brooks with the hunters. On top of the fine no hunting for 5 years.
His name is mentioned but I won't post it but if anyone is interested PM me. I wonder what APOS will do about this one. Just ticks me off the guy drives 2 hours away from his area to hunt my area, bringing a bunch of guys with him, and disrespects wildlife that bad.

[gevarm guy]

hunt my area

where would your boundaries be so i dont get to close...:shark:

[Jamie]

Wanted to post this for awhile finally had time. In the local Brooks paper this past week a Calgary outfitter plead guilty to wildlife infractions. He left 33 geese and 2 ducks abandoned in a ditch. Then was caught later with 18 additional geese and 14 ducks untagged at a hotel in Brooks with the hunters. On top of the fine no hunting for 5 years.
His name is mentioned but I won't post it but if anyone is interested PM me. I wonder what APOS will do about this one. Just ticks me off the guy drives 2 hours away from his area to hunt my area, bringing a bunch of guys with him, and disrespects wildlife that bad.

Got a link?
Honestly, guys like this should be shamed in public.

Jamie

[Hagalaz]

hunt my area

where would your boundaries be so i dont get to close...:shark:

You know exactly what he meant.

Stop trolling.

[hunted]

hunt my area

where would your boundaries be so i dont get to close...:shark:

The general Brooks area is my area as that is where i live, as well as a lot of other fine people. This area is very friendly and welcoming, or at least have been in the past. When this kind of crap happens what do you think will happen? Sorry we don't allow hunters..... The article also states that he left the birds because he was dealing with people who didn't have permission( or chasing them off if you will) but was going to go back for them honest.

You missed the point troll

[Faststeel]

Wanted to post this for awhile finally had time. In the local Brooks paper this past week a Calgary outfitter plead guilty to wildlife infractions. He left 33 geese and 2 ducks abandoned in a ditch. Then was caught later with 18 additional geese and 14 ducks untagged at a hotel in Brooks with the hunters. On top of the fine no hunting for 5 years.
His name is mentioned but I won't post it but if anyone is interested PM me. I wonder what APOS will do about this one. Just ticks me off the guy drives 2 hours away from his area to hunt my area, bringing a bunch of guys with him, and disrespects wildlife that bad.

APOS won't do anything about it, because there is nothing they can do, they are a society. If they were the law when it came to outfitting the would have got rid of that McMahon fellow, which they never did. FS

[hunted]

There is no online articles as I have checked.

[walking buffalo]

APOS won't do anything about it, because there is nothing they can do, they are a society. If they were the law when it came to outfitting the would have got rid of that McMahon fellow, which they never did. FS

APOS is the Enforcer regarding Outfitting and Guiding, on the Minister's behalf.

So if APOS doesn't do anything, it is actually the AESRD Minister not doing anything.

[Ice Fishing Maniac]

More than likely the Outfitter is from the USA as migratory birds fall under Federal with NAFTA....those guys show NO RESPECT!!

IMO, if its public knowledge, post the Outfitter's personal and company name. He committed the offence,charged and found guilty-where is the public shame in that.

That sounds like a big game outfitter up north that was charged and found guilty and spent time in jail-he didnt want to work in the jail crews that go around cleaning and stuff around the communities being in ORANGE COVERALLs in public b/c it was embarrassing to his family...... BOOOO HOOO! ! !!!

[surface2feather]

That sounds like a big game outfitter up north that was charged and found guilty and spent time in jail-he didnt want to work in the jail crews that go around cleaning and stuff around the communities being in ORANGE COVERALLs in public b/c it was embarrassing to his family...... BOOOO HOOO! ! !!!

Sounds like somebody should of thought about the consequences of criminal activity...

[Jamie]

Please post the name.

Jamie

[Pudelpointer]

If it was in the paper it is public info now. Please post the name or a link to the story.

[BuckCuller]

Just a question the 18 geese and 14 ducks were untagged what offense is this?I have never recieved individual tags for waterfoul. Just wondering the relevance.

[Pudelpointer]

Just a question the 18 geese and 14 ducks were untagged what offense is this?I have never recieved individual tags for waterfoul. Just wondering the relevance.

I believe (could be wrong) that waterfowl taken by non-resident alien hunters under the services of a guide have to be marked (tagged).

[BuckCuller]

Thanks Pudlepointer I didnt know about that I have guided big game but never waterfoul.

[hunted]

If it was in the paper it is public info now. Please post the name or a link to the story.

Getting tired of all the PM's and yes you are right it is public now that it is in the paper. This is right out of the Brooks Bulletin. Also by the few pm's that said let me guess his name and were right it sounds like he was due to get charged. I just can't find anything online to link so hope this works.

66736

[Hunter Trav]

I believe (could be wrong) that waterfowl taken by non-resident alien hunters under the services of a guide have to be marked (tagged).

Birds don't get tagged. I cleaned birds for Nube the past two years, and I've never seen one tagged yet. They need to have one wing attached to the breast plate for ID purposes, and the only other thing you need is the relevant licenses to show you legally harvested the birds. Not sure what that writer of the article is talking about, but I'm sure Phil will correct me if I'm wrong...

EDIT...I think they may need a paper with the hunters name, license #, and date in the bag with the birds when transporting. Thats what I'm reading in the article, hopefully Phil will see this and set the record straight...:)

[Cowtown guy]

Oh Andrew.

I thought he was in trouble last year too but I will say that is unconfirmed.

[7 REM MAG]

for outfitter storage of birds they need written permission from the hunters including their harvest dates and win/license numbers.hunters transporting them need licenses and dates of harvest, not sure what they were talking about untagged waterfowl however there is no excuse for birds left in a ditch, or in the box of a truck all day/night for that matter

[BuckCuller]

for outfitter storage of birds they need written permission from the hunters including their harvest dates and win/license numbers.hunters transporting them need licenses and dates of harvest, not sure what they were talking about untagged waterfowl however there is no excuse for birds left in a ditch, or in the box of a truck all day/night for that matter

I totally agree I just didn't understand the untagged part and that's why I brought it up.

[FCLightning]

I am assuming he pled guilty on the 16th - the day after he posted promotional videos on youtube to promote his 2013 bookings?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsUUhkwMGJY

[trapshooter]

I am assuming he pled guilty on the 16th - the day after he posted promotional videos on youtube to promote his 2013 bookings?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsUUhkwMGJY

This video was just taken down!

[trapshooter]

I know this guy, he used to work at Bass Pro for a while! Knew his stuff, but I also knew he was up to no good!
He also used to work for a guide that I know quite well, but he fired him.

[AxeMan]

This video was just taken down!

Ya, it could be he is following along here.

[Pudelpointer]

So, that story is not very clear.

Is Mr. Dath prohibited from hunting for 5 years or 1 year? Is it 5 years prohibition for migratory birds only?

[Big Daddy Badger]

Wanted to post this for awhile finally had time. In the local Brooks paper this past week a Calgary outfitter plead guilty to wildlife infractions. He left 33 geese and 2 ducks abandoned in a ditch. Then was caught later with 18 additional geese and 14 ducks untagged at a hotel in Brooks with the hunters. On top of the fine no hunting for 5 years.
His name is mentioned but I won't post it but if anyone is interested PM me. I wonder what APOS will do about this one. Just ticks me off the guy drives 2 hours away from his area to hunt my area, bringing a bunch of guys with him, and disrespects wildlife that bad.

Another association member in good standIng?

So much for self policing.

I wonder when the province is gonna clue in to how big a mess that UNION they helped create really is.

[avb3]

APOS won't do anything about it, because there is nothing they can do, they are a society. If they were the law when it came to outfitting the would have got rid of that McMahon fellow, which they never did. FS

APOS has the legislated authority, under it's Delegated Administration Organization, (DAO) structure, to withdraw permits, withhold licences and fine members.

They don't have the balls or will power to do so unless a client complains.

Resident hunters should be lobbying for the dissolution of APOS unless they start demonstrating they will discipline wayward members. And none of this 'double jeopardy' chit they throw out for members who are convicted in court.

[32-40win]

Somehow I was under the impression, he was charged in 2011 for that, I am pretty sure that was when I first heard about it. Maybe the paper got the date wrong on the offense?

[MathewsArcher]

Heard the rumors for a few years now but might have been before he started outfitting as Alberta's Fall Flight. 5 years does seem pretty stiff given how soft the courts generally are when dealing with wildlife offences, but good on em in this case.

[MathewsArcher]

More than likely the Outfitter is from the USA as migratory birds fall under Federal with NAFTA....those guys show NO RESPECT!!

IMO, if its public knowledge, post the Outfitter's personal and company name. He committed the offence,charged and found guilty-where is the public shame in that.

That sounds like a big game outfitter up north that was charged and found guilty and spent time in jail-he didnt want to work in the jail crews that go around cleaning and stuff around the communities being in ORANGE COVERALLs in public b/c it was embarrassing to his family...... BOOOO HOOO! ! !!!

Pretty sure he is the owner. Purchased the allocation last year or year before. Alberta's Fall Flight - website lists another owner but might be out of date as he lists himself as the owner on face book.

[jwkace12]

He got charged in 2009 for the samething but then it was a lot more birds. They dropped the charges for what he told me was " lack of evidence" and was never convicted

[Hunter Trav]

Resident hunters should be lobbying for the dissolution of APOS unless they start demonstrating they will discipline wayward members. And none of this 'double jeopardy' chit they throw out for members who are convicted in court.

This I like. As a professional, you break the law, you don't get to do it anymore. Simple as that...

[Sled Ed]

Pretty sure he is the owner. Purchased the allocation last year or year before. Alberta's Fall Flight - website lists another owner but might be out of date as he lists himself as the owner on face book.

Andrew bought the Company ( not %100 paid for yet ) they have not updated the web page yet

[Sled Ed]

Ya, it could be he is following along here.

We know he is

[Kyle]

When they say he has a 5 year hunting ban..does this mean personal hunting or guiding? It would be nice to see them give him a ban for 5 years from guiding.

[Sled Ed]

it will be a personal BAN. dont think they BAN him from guding think that is APOS job. not %100 sure though

[Albertadiver]

We know he is

Good. Then he knows what true outdoorsmen think of him, and now his name is public knowledge as a poacher.

[Pudelpointer]

it will be a personal BAN. dont think they BAN him from guding think that is APOS job. not %100 sure though

I thought you needed to be eligible to hunt in order to actively guide? I know you can own and operate an allocation if banned, but I thought you couldn't physically take hunters into the field. If that is not the case, it bloody well should be.

[Zekeland]

In Manitoba a licensed guide does need a valid current waterfowl licence just like his clients. In our case, a provincial game bird and federal migratory.

If one had a ban on hunting, you would think it would be illegal to buy a valid licence for him/her?

He would not be guiding legally in Manitoba according to our rules.....if this happened here in Mb


Stick it to him!! Especially this so called guiding business he owns.

[nube]

If you have a license ban on your hunting rights you will have a guides license ban as well. I am not sure why a guy would want to waste meat like that. I had a list of people this year that didn't get any from me because my list was so long for people wanting it.

[JohnB]

If you have a license ban on your hunting rights you will have a guides license ban as well. I am not sure why a guy would want to waste meat like that. I had a list of people this year that didn't get any from me because my list was so long for people wanting it.

Would this be for waterfowl guides only or would this be the case for big game outfitters as well?

[Blake]

Looks like Dath's name is being pulled from a ton of sites that no longer want to be associated with him.
Found a 2010 page from Oregon that said he's pro-staff for foiles calls.
Hmm, a poacher that uses strait meat calls. Didn't see that one coming...

http://trophyencounters.com/bens-update/2010/8/3/2010-early-goose-roll-call.html

[Big Daddy Badger]

Please post the name.

Jamie

Yeah!

Its a matter of public record now so... there is no reason not to.

[7 REM MAG]

part of the eligibility to be a hunting guide in alberta regardless of species is you must be eligible to hold a hunting license, not sure why he would wast birds as was already mentioned the stuff is pretty easy to give away, and then theres the risk of getting caught/convicted and not able to guide

[Big Daddy Badger]

You know what would be great?

Instead of all the fluff in the hunting regulations... a couple pages with pictures of those convicted in there.
That way we'd have a handy reference if they went hunting again and they would thoroughly...outed.

[trophyboy]

Surprise, Surprise another outfitter breaking the law. He'll be back hunting/guiding before you know it and continuing to do the same illegal things. Outfitters are all the same. Some get caught but the vast majority don't.

[nube]

Outfitters are all the same. Some get caught but the vast majority don't.

WOW, what a statement. Why don't you just label all resident hunters as poachers as well since a few of them gt caught as well. :shark: Got to love coments like this:)

[Sakoman]

All outfitters are not the same, that being said there seem to be far to many on the shady / illegal side.

I wish there was a way to force APOS into cleaning up its membership. I would think the goverment should be able to force them to.

[trophyboy]

It's hard not to paint them all with the broad brush when every time you turn around there's another one charged with doing something extremely selfish, stupid and illegal.

nube, you are probably one of the good ones but we have some real prize winners in this province when it comes to outfitters. Some of the things they pull in the area I live in is unbelievable but landowners don't charge them simply because they know it would cost them way too much $$$$$ and would probably be wasting their money, not too mention some of the retaliation tactics, and your wonderful outfitters know this.

Sorry just stating what's true!

[huntnguide]

Surprise, Surprise another outfitter breaking the law. He'll be back hunting/guiding before you know it and continuing to do the same illegal things. Outfitters are all the same. Some get caught but the vast majority don't.

that is quite the acquisition you just made. maybe get your facts straight before posting rubish like that on here.

[BuckHunterBowen]

Surprise, Surprise another outfitter breaking the law. He'll be back hunting/guiding before you know it and continuing to do the same illegal things. Outfitters are all the same. Some get caught but the vast majority don't.

? Are ya thick....

[nube]

It's hard not to paint them all with the broad brush when every time you turn around there's another one charged with doing something extremely selfish, stupid and illegal.

nube, you are probably one of the good ones but we have some real prize winners in this province when it comes to outfitters. Some of the things they pull in the area I live in is unbelievable but landowners don't charge them simply because they know it would cost them way too much $$$$$ and would probably be wasting their money, not too mention some of the retaliation tactics, and your wonderful outfitters know this.

Sorry just stating what's true!

The reason why you hear about it is because it is an outfitter. If you printed every resident that got charged the newspaper would be full but because there is not really a story over resident hunters you don't really hear of them.

If you want to do something about illegal outfitters it is really not that hard if you want to spend the time doing it. Same thing with anyone illegal. It might take some time but it is not hard to catch them if they are constently doing things in the wrong.

I think you live in a dream world. You really think that outfitters buy off all the landowners in an area? :snapoutofit: You really think an outfitter is stuoid enough to even start that game. If I paid even a couple of farmers off after a few years the word would spread and it would cost me half of my money I make just to pay them off. Why would I want to start that. Trust me I have had the chance to pay if I wanted on some good hunts but simply declined. Some landowners ask for money. I don't doubt that some outfitters do pay behind the scenes but to paint the broad brush like you have is just not fair. Obviously quite a few agree with me on that by the looks of it.

If you have problems with people in your area doing illegal things you need to talk with the landowners and the fish cops and get invloved not sit on a computer and complain about it.

[Sled Ed]

Well said nube

[avb3]

that is quite the acquisition you just made. maybe get your facts straight before posting rubish like that on here.

If you are a member of APOS, then perhaps you can lobby them to actually impose penalties on those members who do not follow the rules.

As far as I am aware, the only penalties have been when clients have a problem with an outfitter.

Can you tell us any different? Most DAO type organizations will list and report publicly on their website those members who have been penalized, including lawyers, doctors, accountants and real estate agents.

What does APOS have to hide?

[Albertadiver]

I wish there was a way to force APOS into cleaning up its membership. I would think the goverment should be able to force them to.

If you are a member of APOS, then perhaps you can lobby them to actually impose penalties on those members who do not follow the rules.

X2

I've lost all respect for APOS due to their lack of removing convicted criminals, and their protectionist acts.

I'm sure there's good outfitters out there, but APOS carries no positive bearing for me.

[trophyboy]

I love how APOS never lobbys the government for harsher fines for their beloved members and I love how they welcome their beloved convicted members back into the fold with open arms. That in itself says it all as far as credibilty goes. And you APOS guys want anyone's respect? Kinda hilarious actually. :snapoutofit:

[walking buffalo]

I love how APOS never lobbys the government for harsher fines for their beloved members and I love how they welcome their beloved convicted members back into the fold with open arms. That in itself says it all as far as credibilty goes. And you APOS guys want anyone's respect? Kinda hilarious actually. :snapoutofit:

APOS doesn't have to lobby the gov. It is quite the opposite, APOS is the regulatory body that makes the rules and manages the enforcement and penalties for Outfitter-Guides who break APOS rules.

The way to enact change at APOS is through the AESRD Minister,
Diana McQueen

ESRD.Minister@gov.ab.ca

APOS is acting on her behalf. In the Court of Law and public opinion and responsibility, actions or inaction by APOS is the Minister's actions or inaction.

[trophyboy]

Excellent point WB. The inmates are running the asylum. Now it's all starting to make sense!

[nube]

Some of you guys want to run your mouth like you know what's going on but really you don't. Some of this stuff you guys are saying makes me laugh. WB has a grasp of what is going on. I'm not promoting bad behavior but to lay blame on those that have hands tied or can not do anything is rediculous. Yes there is a ton of BS that goes on but it is business on both sides. There are changes that need to9 be made but like I said don't complain on here. Send letter to the appropriate people. Complaining to APOS is not going to change a thing.

[hal53]

Some of you guys want to run your mouth like you know what's going on but really you don't. Some of this stuff you guys are saying makes me laugh. WB has a grasp of what is going on. I'm not promoting bad behavior but to lay blame on those that have hands tied or can not do anything is rediculous. Yes there is a ton of BS that goes on but it is business on both sides. There are changes that need to9 be made but like I said don't complain on here. Send letter to the appropriate people. Complaining to APOS is not going to change a thing.
..and maybe, just maybe nube some of us have tried and been stonewalled. I respect your standing in the situation,maybe it's time for some of you APOS members to ask your executive WTF????

[Faststeel]

Some of you guys want to run your mouth like you know what's going on but really you don't. Some of this stuff you guys are saying makes me laugh. WB has a grasp of what is going on. I'm not promoting bad behavior but to lay blame on those that have hands tied or can not do anything is rediculous. Yes there is a ton of BS that goes on but it is business on both sides. There are changes that need to9 be made but like I said don't complain on here. Send letter to the appropriate people. Complaining to APOS is not going to change a thing.

Wouldn't hurt if some of its own members made some positive strides in the changes many feel that need to be made, would it? FS

[Doodle30]

..and maybe, just maybe nube some of us have tried and been stonewalled. I respect your standing in the situation,maybe it's time for some of you APOS members to ask your executive WTF????

I work in a self regulated industry and our self regulator tends to be tougher on us so they can maintain the PRIVILEGE of self regulation. On top of that our firm tends to tough on us so that the self regulator doesn't feel the need to get involved.

Maybe if APOS was faced with losing the PRIVILEGE of self regulation they would do a better job of regulating.

If the bad outfitters are such a small part of the group it does surprise me the the good outfitters don't force their regulator to deal with them accordingly.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Seems to me people in APOS know of the specific bad apples in their organization most of the time before they get pinched....so how about APOS decides to be a bit proactive and clean house to set an example?

You know why....they don't really care, that seems to be the message. They care only what they can take and not about what they are taking.

The honourable guides in APOS should be ashamed and should have the offending parties in the organization tossed....won't happen though.

Why doesn't APOS ever make a statement in the media about people associated with them who have been caught? maybe they should denounce publicly?....they don't but they should. I have never heard them make a statement about a guide who has been convicted of a wildlife offence...I could be mistaken but it seems they never make a statement. Then when the punishment is up the poacher comes running home to open arms.

Those actions alone should speak about APOS, I don't think they have the resource (Alberta wildlife) or the management of it in their hearts....just looking for the money in the pockets.

They just follow the first rule of "fight club".....don't talk about fight club.

LC

[.257Weatherby]

Another association member in good standIng?

So much for self policing.

I wonder when the province is gonna clue in to how big a mess that UNION they helped create really is.

They are an Association, if you want to start a Union bashing thread , start it under a new thread.
What is to stop him from shooting illegally?
Was his personal lic. revoked?
Was his WIN revoked?
Was his business lic suspended along with his Federal permits?
It didnt say in the article posted, that or I missed it while skimming through.
Shady business/companies always find a way to weasel around the rules in place under the guise of being important for the economy...
$8500.00 and change is likely the cost of doing business to this fine upstanding poacher(sic) !
Nothing more...Nothing less.
Rob

[avb3]

APOS doesn't have to lobby the gov. It is quite the opposite, APOS is the regulatory body that makes the rules and manages the enforcement and penalties for Outfitter-Guides who break APOS rules.

The way to enact change at APOS is through the AESRD Minister,
Diana McQueen

ESRD.Minister@gov.ab.ca

APOS is acting on her behalf. In the Court of Law and public opinion and responsibility, actions or inaction by APOS is the Minister's actions or inaction.

The problem is, APOS may be responsible through their disciplinary committee of enforcement and penalties, but that committee acts on behalf of clients complaints virtually exclusively.

They ignore sanctioning APOS members who transgress APOS rules or Alberta law. The usual reason is "double jeopardy", which is total BS, or the committee gets intimidated if an outfitter brings a lawyer, threatening to sue committee members.

Right now I feel the only solution is that hunters start lobbying ESRD to dissolve the DAO APOS operates under. I believe that can be done with 30 day notice.

[avb3]

Some of you guys want to run your mouth like you know what's going on but really you don't. Some of this stuff you guys are saying makes me laugh. WB has a grasp of what is going on. I'm not promoting bad behavior but to lay blame on those that have hands tied or can not do anything is rediculous. Yes there is a ton of BS that goes on but it is business on both sides. There are changes that need to9 be made but like I said don't complain on here. Send letter to the appropriate people. Complaining to APOS is not going to change a thing.

Nube, don't even try and suggest I am running off my mouth on this issue. I understand completely the structure, history and reasons for APOS not acting against bad outfitters. Notice I said bad outfitters, because I know a ton of good ones too.

It is time for APOS to act, or resident hunters to lobby that the DAO be dissolved.

[Pudelpointer]

They just follow the first rule of "fight club".....don't talk about fight club.

LC

Perfect.

Their DAO needs to be pulled or suspended, as they have repeatedly shown an inability or refusal to police themselves, in my opinion.

APOS can become a another user group that government tries hard to ignore, like AFGA, HFT, TU, DU, etc.

[bobalong]

Wouldn't hurt if some of its own members made some positive strides in the changes many feel that need to be made, would it? FS

I agree, this is something you would think that all outfitters in APOS would want. The reputation of all outfitters can be effected by the few bad apples that are out there. I believe that outfitters could probably be more effective at influencing APOS to deal with the bad apples than anyone. Outfitters spreading the word about how APOS intends on dealing with convicted outfitters and what they are doing to try and ensure all outfitters who have infractions are dealt with would do much more to restore the reputation of APOS and outfitters, than accusing hunters of shooting their mouth off.

[nube]

The problem is, APOS may be responsible through their disciplinary committee of enforcement and penalties, but that committee acts on behalf of clients complaints virtually exclusively.

They ignore sanctioning APOS members who transgress APOS rules or Alberta law. The usual reason is "double jeopardy", which is total BS, or the committee gets intimidated if an outfitter brings a lawyer, threatening to sue committee members.

Right now I feel the only solution is that hunters start lobbying ESRD to dissolve the DAO APOS operates under. I believe that can be done with 30 day notice.

I actually think that the discipline committee does a good job when a complaint comes in. I would be intimidated as well if I were in their shoes if I was faced with a trained professional lawyer. APOS members are not trained. Ir would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Like I have stated before yes there could be changes made. There is a lot we don't understand. It doesn't seem like any of you guys have written any letters or you would have the answers.

Why not send a few letters and ask some of the questions you have here and see what they say?

[walking buffalo]

I actually think that the discipline committee does a good job when a complaint comes in. I would be intimidated as well if I were in their shoes if I was faced with a trained professional lawyer. APOS members are not trained. Ir would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Like I have stated before yes there could be changes made. There is a lot we don't understand. It doesn't seem like any of you guys have written any letters or you would have the answers.

Why not send a few letters and ask some of the questions you have here and see what they say?



Quoted below is the response from APOS to my latest letter.


.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Quoted below is the response from APOS to my latest letter.

Exactly.....following the first rule of fight club....

LC

[Pudelpointer]

Well WB, I am glad they are being clear about how they deal with any unethical members and those convicted of illegal acts.

[avb3]

I actually think that the discipline committee does a good job when a complaint comes in.

Really? Care to share any of any outfitters that were sanctioned for wildlife, criminal or ethic infractions?

I would be intimidated as well if I were in their shoes if I was faced with a trained professional lawyer. APOS members are not trained. Ir would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Like I have stated before yes there could be changes made. There is a lot we don't understand. It doesn't seem like any of you guys have written any letters or you would have the answers.


The committee members consists not only of APOS members, but in the past included outside people, some who had experience on self regulating boards. In addition, APOS has strong legal representatives themselves. It is a red herring to say that committee members are intimidated. BTW, as I indicted, I have a very good understanding of the committee's genesis, its structure, and its legal abilities.

The DOA regulation states, among other things :

The Society may cancel or suspend a licence, permit or guide’s designation issued by it in accordance with the by‑laws.


Can you name an incident when this happened? BTW, that same DOA regulation states APOS is subject to the Freedom of Information Act (FOIP).

I wonder how often they have been FOIPed?

Of interest is that the current DAO regulation expires as follows:

For the purpose of ensuring that this Regulation is reviewed for ongoing relevancy and necessity, with the option that it may be repassed in its present or an amended form following a review, this Regulation expires on June 30, 2014.


What this means, is that resident hunters have the next year and half to lobby their MLA for substantial changes, and possibility of non-renewal may be part of that change.

[Lefty-Canuck]

I actually think that the discipline committee does a good job when a complaint comes in. I would be intimidated as well if I were in their shoes if I was faced with a trained professional lawyer. APOS members are not trained. Ir would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Like I have stated before yes there could be changes made. There is a lot we don't understand. It doesn't seem like any of you guys have written any letters or you would have the answers.

Members intimidating the administrators?.....seriously? this is a defence as to why more people who are APOS members are not sanctioned due to wrong doings?......that make sense NOT.

If this is the case then APOS executive and administration are clearly not doing their jobs.

LC

[nube]

Some good points guys. Some of it I did not know. I will be asking some questions next time I drop by and have a chance. Obviously we both want what is best for everyone and for people to be held accountable for the things they are doing wrong. Especially the ones that are repeats. Hopefully change for the future is going to produce good things.

[trophyboy]

We all know that APOS will never change....at least for the better.

Not an organization that anyone with any credibilty would be a part of, at least that's what the record seems to show! If they truly cared they would have been doing the right thing long ago. The name Lloyd McMahon comes to mind. Now that's good company to keep!:bad_boys_20:

[avb3]

Some good points guys. Some of it I did not know. I will be asking some questions next time I drop by and have a chance. Obviously we both want what is best for everyone and for people to be held accountable for the things they are doing wrong. Especially the ones that are repeats. Hopefully change for the future is going to produce good things.

Thanks for doing so, but why has it taken almost 16 years and APOS still has not shown to have the testicular fortitude to enforce their OWN rules?

Changes should have happened a long time ago, and they have not. First steps that would need to happen is for APOS to outline information on discipline in the same manner that the Realtors, Lawyers, Doctors, Accountants and other professionals do on their websites.

They all say WHO was charged, the decision, AND the penalty on their websites. APOS says nothing, nothing at all... in fact, there is no mention of the Disciplinary Committee on the site.

There are some good people on the APOS board, some I know personally. I just don't believe it is a priority for them to deal with the disciplinary issue. The current president was a member of the disciplinary committee for some time, so he knows the issues from first hand experience.

APOS can immediately implement the website reporting. The rest can follow in the next year.

[MathewsArcher]

If APOS won't take action against Lloyd McMahon why would anyone expect anything different here.

[SolidSnake]

what a shame another person caught doing this. I am a guide myself and know the pressure that some of the american clients put on guides but it just goes to show what character Andrew has. This is a joke and puts a huge black mark on waterfowl outfitters. Its a shame you only ever hear the bad side of it but to say that all or most outfitters are like that is just plain WRONG. I have NEVER ditched a bird and will never do so. I am a responsible member of society.

IMO this guy needs to be punished even more. He should never be aloud to making a living in the outdoor industry. I hope these penalties change.

It is a privilege to make a living in the outdoor industry not a right.

[Katman]

what a shame another person caught doing this. I am a guide myself and know the pressure that some of the american clients put on guides but it just goes to show what character Andrew has. This is a joke and puts a huge black mark on waterfowl outfitters. Its a shame you only ever hear the bad side of it but to say that all or most outfitters are like that is just plain WRONG. I have NEVER ditched a bird and will never do so. I am a responsible member of society.

IMO this guy needs to be punished even more. He should never be aloud to making a living in the outdoor industry. I hope these penalties change.

It is a privilege to make a living in the outdoor industry not a right.

so wouldn't suspending his license indefinably by the APOS bring the penalty changes you talk about?

seems everybody agrees what needs to occur except the organization that can do it. Sorry, but their inaction will only strengthen the distaste people have towards outfitters.

[The-Legend]

very shocking! I met Andrew working at BPS years ago been on a few shoots with him and bought a black lab off him.. very good guy who knows his sh!!t

guess he fu*&ed up and it's time to pay the piper