Guided hunts

[Huevos]

Just wondering who has ever been on a guided hunt, or would go if the opportunity arose? If you answered yes, have you complained about the alberta guide allocations on this forum or any other? I know I find myself wanting to go stone sheep hunting one day, but am overprotective of the game we have in our backyard. I have found myself wanking about outfitter tags but fully expect other regions to let me come hunting. Just a thought that I have been tossing around. What are your thoughts?

[Big Daddy Badger]

A long long time ago... I guided hunts...does that count?:)

Bottom line is that the way it works here is BS.

There are too many "outfitters" and they get too many tags.

My thought is that the disproportionate number of outfitters is directly linked to the fact that it allows them to access tags that others cannot.
And of course the more people they have in their UNION... the more likely it is that this will continue.

OOPs...sorry... I didn't amswer your question.

Yeah... I've slagged em.:)

[Huevos]

Me too. So most guys are more concerned about fair numbers, not totally removing hunt opportunities for non residents?

[walking buffalo]

Me too. So most guys are more concerned about fair numbers, not totally removing hunt opportunities for non residents?

I can only speak for myself. That is my position. :)

[Big Daddy Badger]

Me too. So most guys are more concerned about fair numbers, not totally removing hunt opportunities for non residents?

I think so.

I don't mind waiting in line but it burns my butt that some guy can roll in from where ever....flip the province some coin and go to the front...bumping every resident back one spot.


WTF!?!

I guess in the province we are all equal but some are more equal than others...

[Torkdiesel]

One of Alberta's big selling points in the outfitting/Guided hunts industry is our guarenteed tag system. No drawing or booking hunts on speculation that one might draw. If you take that away the industry will most likely fold or only exist in a shadow of what it once was. This might not mean anything to you but to many people it is a way of life we love. If only on a part time basis anymore.

I have no issue with the outfitters getting their 10% share of the total tags, and it will return to that after this major drop in resident tags and 5 year allocation review is finished. Just lots to figure out in the meantime.

Nobody wants to loose what they had. Be it residents or outfitters, but these times are changing and everybody will have to give a little for the greater cause of wildlife management.

[pikeslayer22]

Bottom line is"Money talks and let the good times roll"! There giving away all our resources

[Brock1]

A long long time ago... I guided hunts...does that count?:)

Bottom line is that the way it works here is BS.

There are too many "outfitters" and they get too many tags.

My thought is that the disproportionate number of outfitters is directly linked to the fact that it allows them to access tags that others cannot.
And of course the more people they have in their UNION... the more likely it is that this will continue.

OOPs...sorry... I didn't amswer your question.

Yeah... I've slagged em.:)

The number of outfitters in the province has absolutely no bearing on the number of non resident tags.
you say that there are too many outfitters, there can be an outfitter with 5 tags or 500.they are still an outfitter. so to say that "the disproportionate number of outfitters is directly linked " is an inaccurate statement.
Just saying.
and "the more people they have in their union?"
what does this mean?
There is no union in outfitting in Alberta.
You obviously need to educate yourself before making foolish statements about "outfitters unions...." that don't exist

this is starting to sound like "idle no more.":snapoutofit:

[waterhawk]

I suggest we have a look at Saskatchewan residents hunting in Alberta. As I understand it,an Albertan cannot hunt moose or elk in Saskatchewan except through an outfitter. Alberta should have equivalent regulations.

[elkhunter11]

Duplicate

[elkhunter11]

I suggest we have a look at Saskatchewan residents hunting in Alberta. As I understand it,an Albertan cannot hunt moose or elk in Saskatchewan except through an outfitter. Alberta should have equivalent regulations.

Have at look at the regulations, and you won't find non resident licenses for elk,mule deer , or pronghorn.

http://www.environment.gov.sk.ca/Default.aspx?DN=2a5dfe9f-6442-4667-ad59-253883e8b8e2

[Ryry4]

I've been on guided hunts and have some very good friends that guide in Albert, B.C., N.W.T., Mexico and the U.S. Outfitters are no different than resident hunters, there are good ones and bad ones.

[waterhawk]

Have at look at the regulations, and you won't find non resident licenses for elk,mule deer , or pronghorn.

http://www.environment.gov.sk.ca/Default.aspx?DN=2a5dfe9f-6442-4667-ad59-253883e8b8e2

So are you in agreement that Alberta should have reciprocal regulations.

I want to make it clear that I was born and raised in Saskatchewan and have many friends in the province. I also own land there. It bothers me that Saskatchewan has basically shut out Alberta hunters but many Saskatchewan guys come to Alberta to hunt. Any animals those guys take in Alberta is one less animal for residents to hunt.

[waterhawk]

Elkhunter: There are non resident licences in Saskachewan for whitetail deer. The zones and , in some cases, the hunt dates are restricted. Also, non residents have to buy their licences by the end of May.

[Deer Hunter]

Combine increasing population growth beyond any other province or state...

http://www.canada.com/technology/Census+Canada+growth+fastest+population+hits+milli on/6119664/story.html

OTTAWA — Canada's population of 33.5 million people is growing faster than that of any other G8 nation — fuelled primarily by immigration — while the booming West continues to reshape this country's demographic landscape, a new census has revealed.


The latest national head-count, released Wednesday by Statistics Canada, shows strong and steady growth in nearly every corner of a country that remains firmly in the grip of a westward shift in population power — one that will see growing political and economic influence from Western Canada, observers say.


Up from 31.6 million at the time of the previous census in 2006, the Canadian population remains the smallest among the G8 but by far the fastest-growing, with a 5.9 per cent growth rate in the past five years that not only exceeds the 4.4 per cent rise in the U.S., but also Canada's own previous increase of 5.4 per cent between 2001 and 2006.


Sustaining the growth spurt is Canada's open-arms approach to immigration, a phenomenon that has become twice as important as natural increase — the difference between births and deaths — in driving the country's population upward.


Initial results of the 2011 census — conducted last year under a cloud of controversy after the Conservative government's elimination of the mandatory long-form questionnaire — show Alberta again leading all provinces in population growth (10.8 per cent since the last census in 2006) and its two largest cities, Calgary and Edmonton, outpacing the country's 31 other metropolitan areas with soaring increases of more than 12 per cent in the number of residents over the past five years.

With wide swings in winter affected game populations, and hence resident tag allocations/opportunity....

(Sick of seeing these already im sure...)
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj188/AlbertaFleaBags/New%202013/Moose96-12_zps3902a6cb.png
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj188/AlbertaFleaBags/New%202013/MuleDeer96-12_zpsf1ea663f.png
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj188/AlbertaFleaBags/New%202013/Trophyant96-2012_zps84f49912.png

Alberta is unique. And requires unique approaches to prioritize resident hunting opportunity. Currently that isnt happening here.

Areas that have an abundance of game or a lack of resident hunting pressure can afford to have excess outfitting and non resident opportunities. Alberta is the farthest from that situation however.

[elkhunter11]

Elkhunter: There are non resident licences in Saskachewan for whitetail deer. The zones and , in some cases, the hunt dates are restricted. Also, non residents have to buy their licences by the end of May.


I am well aware that non residents are allowed to hunt whitetail deer in Saskatchewan, since I grew up in Saskatchewan, and have hunted whitetail deer there for about 40 years. That is why I never mentioned whitetail deer in my post.

As for the Saskatchewan approach to non resident hunting, I believe that Alberta could learn a lot from Saskatchewan, in that regard.

[bobalong]

I've been on guided hunts and have some very good friends that guide in Albert, B.C., N.W.T., Mexico and the U.S. Outfitters are no different than resident hunters, there are good ones and bad ones.

I don't think the hunters of Alberta have a big problem with most of the actual outiftters themselves, the problem is with the percentage of opportunities/tags
they recieve.

[Ryry4]

I don't think the hunters of Alberta have a big problem with most of the actual outiftters themselves, the problem is with the percentage of opportunities/tags
they recieve.

Maybe, but after reading some of the venom spewed about outfitters and non-resident hunters I don't know.

[whitetail Junkie]

One of Alberta's big selling points in the outfitting/Guided hunts industry is our guarenteed tag system. No drawing or booking hunts on speculation that one might draw. If you take that away the industry will most likely fold or only exist in a shadow of what it once was. This might not mean anything to you but to many people it is a way of life we love. If only on a part time basis anymore.

I have no issue with the outfitters getting their 10% share of the total tags, and it will return to that after this major drop in resident tags and 5 year allocation review is finished. Just lots to figure out in the meantime.

Nobody wants to loose what they had. Be it residents or outfitters, but these times are changing and everybody will have to give a little for the greater cause of wildlife management.

There is nothing to figure out in the meantime....Resident tags are down,so cut the outfitter tags respectivly,for the next 5 years,until the next 5 year review is up for renewal! Im puzzled by what the F'in delay is at the moment.

[bobalong]

[QUOTE
Nobody wants to loose what they had. Be it residents or outfitters, but these times are changing and everybody will have to give a little for the greater cause of wildlife management.[/QUOTE]

I think this is where the problem lies, residents have already, and continue to lose lots of what they had, where as outfitters have not.

Another part of the imbalance IMO is residents were not really consulted about decreases, they were just implemented for the most part, where there seems to be lots of consultation with outfitters about what should happen with their tag allocations.
I think consultation is good, but it is part of the imbalance.

[Torkdiesel]

There is nothing to figure out in the meantime....Resident tags are down,so cut the outfitter tags respectivly,for the next 5 years,until the next 5 year review is up for renewal! Im puzzled by what the F'in delay is at the moment.

The current delay in our area is that the resident tags have been droped so low in some areas it will take away 50% of the moose allocations in a zone. Which is fine if the population is indeed that low and needs it. The issue is when outfitters are going 100% on every allocation they have and they show up with 500 trail cam pictures of dozens and dozens of different mature bulls it's hard to except SRD's findings and give up 50% of your revenue.
For other animals like mule deer it's plain as day and the ones that care will have no problem giving them up until the population rebounds.

Again if you look hard enough you will surely find a few bad seeds, but it's not the masses they are portrayed to be.

[whitetail Junkie]

The current delay in our area is that the resident tags have been droped so low in some areas it will take away 50% of the moose allocations in a zone. Which is fine if the population is indeed that low and needs it. The issue is when outfitters are going 100% on every allocation they have and they show up with 500 trail cam pictures of dozens and dozens of different mature bulls it's hard to except SRD's findings and give up 50% of your revenue.
For other animals like mule deer it's plain as day and the ones that care will have no problem giving them up until the population rebounds.

Again if you look hard enough you will surely find a few bad seeds, but it's not the masses they are portrayed to be.

To tell you the Truth Im not up to date on my moose population knowledge,due to the fact that I live in Medicine Hat.However after looking at deer hunters Moose gragh/chart last month,I can assure you that there is a problem with high outfitter tag allocation numbers in a handfull of wmus,espicially in the southern 400,wmus.

A current director of Apos,has mule buck allocations in wmu 132,where they give out only 5 bucks tags to residents everyfall,aswell he has Trophy antelope Rifle tags in wmus where only 10 tags are given out to residents in the fall.I hope for the sake of our animals,he has no problem giving up these allocations of his, until the population rebounds or at the least the next 5 year allocation review is up for renewal in 2018.....

[elkhunter11]

The current delay in our area is that the resident tags have been droped so low in some areas it will take away 50% of the moose allocations in a zone.

I sincerely doubt that APOS questioned the moose (or pronghorn, or mule deer) numbers when the resident tags were being severely reduced, but now that it effects their allocations, all of a sudden they don't want to believe the estimates.

If the resident hunters have to accept such huge decreases in resident tags, then it's only fair that the outfitters take a similar reduction.

[Torkdiesel]

I sincerely doubt that APOS questioned the moose (or pronghorn, or mule deer) numbers when the resident tags were being severely reduced, but now that it effects their allocations, all of a sudden they don't want to believe the estimates.

If the resident hunters have to accept such huge decreases in resident tags, then it's only fair that the outfitters take a similar reduction.

Definitly, where warrented they should. The biggest problem with SRD reducing tags in one area for residents even if unwarented is its frustrating, they have to apply in another zone. Outfitters don't have that luxury, not to mention they have possibly spent hundred of thousands on allocations. Of course losing these is the risk of doing business, but I think your level of concern would increase significantly as well if you stood to loose a couple hundred K's

[hal53]

Definitly, where warrented they should. The biggest problem with SRD reducing tags in one area for residents even if unwarented is its frustrating, they have to apply in another zone. Outfitters don't have that luxury, not to mention they have possibly spent hundred of thousands on allocations. Of course losing these is the risk of doing business, but I think your level of concern would increase significantly as well if you stood to loose a couple hundred K's
...and there is the root of the entire problem, some guys paid out stupid amounts of money, and now it's all about $$$ and forget about residents and the future of the resource, nice......

[elkhunter11]

...and there is the root of the entire problem, some guys paid out stupid amounts of money, and now it's all about $$$ and forget about residents and the future of the resource, nice......

That sums it up very well.

[Torkdiesel]

...and there is the root of the entire problem, some guys paid out stupid amounts of money, and now it's all about $$$ and forget about residents and the future of the resource, nice......

In your opinion it's a stupid amount of money, but that's the cost of doing business. And I think your "it's all about money" comment may be a little off. Most do it because they love it and devote their lives to the outdoors.

[hal53]

In your opinion it's a stupid amount of money, but that's the cost of doing business. And I think your "it's all about money" comment may be a little off. Most do it because they love it and devote their lives to the outdoors.
a "cost of doing business" is suffering thru' the downturns and enjoying the good times....novel concept eh???

[Torkdiesel]

a "cost of doing business" is suffering thru' the downturns and enjoying the good times....novel concept eh???

Nobodies saying they shouldn't have their allocations cut back to an appropriate level. 10% as it has always supposed to have been. But you can't blame them for wanting the reductions to be fair. As I stated earlier some zones it's completely warranted, others it's not.

Can you honestly say if you owned the allocations in a zone that still had a very strong population of a specific ungulate you would willingly just give up your allocations without protest ?

[elkhunter11]

In your opinion it's a stupid amount of money, but that's the cost of doing business. And I think your "it's all about money" comment may be a little off. Most do it because they love it and devote their lives to the outdoors.

If those people are really that devoted to the outdoors, they should be more than willing to give up as many allocations as are required, to get them back to the 10% target, for the benefit of the population, and future hunters.

Nobodies saying they shouldn't have their allocations cut back to an appropriate level. 10% as it has always supposed to have been.

I looked at the number for pronghorn allocations for the past two years, and it certainly didn't appear that the outfitters gave up most of their allocations to keep that number anywhere near 10%. APOS only brings up that 10% when it benefits them.

But you can't blame them for wanting the reductions to be fair.

The resident hunters gave up 90% of their pronghorn tags for those two years, while the outfitter allocations were not reduced significantly, if at all. Do you consider that fair?

[hal53]

Nobodies saying they shouldn't have their allocations cut back to an appropriate level. 10% as it has always supposed to have been. But you can't blame them for wanting the reductions to be fair. As I stated earlier some zones it's completely warranted, others it's not.

Can you honestly say if you owned the allocations in a zone that still had a very strong population of a specific ungulate you would willingly just give up your allocations without protest ?
you are correct. But showing up with a bunch of trail cam pics of Moose , from who knows where, is pretty lame way to prove their point, as well as very self-serving....

[Ryry4]

If those people are really that devoted to the outdoors, they should be more than willing to give up as many allocations as are required, to get them back to the 10% target, for the benefit of the population, and future hunters.

And would you do it for free if it were you?

The outfitters that I know are better conservationists than they get credit for.

[Ryry4]

you are correct. But showing up with a bunch of trail cam pics of Moose , from who knows where, is pretty lame way to prove their point, as well as very self-serving....

Hal, is it self serving if it keeps resident opportunity from getting cut back also?

[Torkdiesel]

you are correct. But showing up with a bunch of trail cam pics of Moose , from who knows where, is pretty lame way to prove their point, as well as very self-serving....

When did people loose so much faith in man kind. What benefit would it be to them to lie about where the pictures came from ? So they could kill every animal in the area and have nothing left ?

Perhabs they should have contracted an independent game scout to fly around and do actual counts for them, but I fear they still wouldn't believe that.

[elkhunter11]

And would you do it for free if it were you?

I am not the one claiming to have dedicated my life to the outdoors. But if I did invest in an outfitting business, and I had to reduce my allocations because the population dropped off drastically, I would suck it up and carry on. It's no different than losing money in any business, you go in well informed, you have a business plan that includes some extra cash to hopefully see you through changes in the market, and you take your chances.

Hal, is it self serving if it keeps resident opportunity from getting cut back also?

You convince SRD that the population is in better condition than it really is, so you get to keep your allocations for five more years, then when it is discovered that the population number really is much lower, the resident tag numbers are cut dramatically after all. It keeps your allocations for five more years, but the resident tag numbers get reduced anyways.

[hal53]

Hal, is it self serving if it keeps resident opportunity from getting cut back also?
Haven't seen it work that way yet. I will say it one more time, I have no problems with Guides and Outfitters, I know many, and most are fine people, as always, there are a few who are a little careless with the truth that give everyone a black eye. I do have a problem with residents waiting 5+ years to hunt an animal in their area due to low numbers, and Outfitters crying their numbers can't be reduced because it will wreck their "business". Face it, a lot of them saw what they thought was the goose that laid the golden egg, and bought allocations at ridiculous amounts of money, you know what?...when the market (product) disappears, you lose!!!...that's business, so suck it up and carry on with your other job that gets you thru' the rest of the year....

[Deer Hunter]

What is the benefit of the outfitting business in Alberta? Seriously.

[Torkdiesel]

What is the benefit of the outfitting business in Alberta? Seriously.

Money, jobs, taxes paid, resource management, passing along our heritage to the next generation, it's fun, seeing people succesfully hunt animals they couldn't hunt at home, introducing youth to our wonderful sport, I'm sure other could add more reasons.

[Ryry4]

Haven't seen it work that way yet. I will say it one more time, I have no problems with Guides and Outfitters, I know many, and most are fine people, as always, there are a few who are a little careless with the truth that give everyone a black eye. I do have a problem with residents waiting 5+ years to hunt an animal in their area due to low numbers, and Outfitters crying their numbers can't be reduced because it will wreck their "business". Face it, a lot of them saw what they thought was the goose that laid the golden egg, and bought allocations at ridiculous amounts of money, you know what?...when the market (product) disappears, you lose!!!...that's business, so suck it up and carry on with your other job that gets you thru' the rest of the year....

I don't disagree, business is business and you take the good with the bad. It just seems outfitters get beat up on this subject. The fact is SRD needs to pull their head out of their rear end and do their job.

[hal53]

Money, jobs, taxes paid, resource management, passing along our heritage to the next generation, it's fun, seeing people succesfully hunt animals they couldn't hunt at home, introducing youth to our wonderful sport, I'm sure other could add more reasons.
right on...I too would like to pass on the hunting heritage, see them take animals athome and introduce kids to the sport, oh wait....they have a 5-7 year wait for a tag.....

[elkhunter11]

The fact is SRD needs to pull their head out of their rear end and do their job.

For sure SRD needs to do a better job of managing our resources, and that includes reducing outfitter allocations when necessary, to keep them in line with resident tag numbers. It also includes removing the allocations from outfitters that have been convicted of committing wildlife act violations, and criminal acts while outfitting, since APOS seems incapable of dealing with their own members.

right on...I too would like to pass on the hunting heritage, see them take animals athome and introduce kids to the sport, oh wait....they have a 5-7 year wait for a tag.....

Or 10-14 years in some cases,I guess that they won't be kids by then.:rolleye2:

[Torkdiesel]

right on...I too would like to pass on the hunting heritage, see them take animals athome and introduce kids to the sport, oh wait....they have a 5-7 year wait for a tag.....

That's life, sometimes you have to be patient and wait. At least it will happen, for many in other regions around the world it never will. Oh well I guess, as long as I get to do it. More me me me :(

[hal53]

That's life, sometimes you have to be patient and wait. At least it will happen, for many in other regions around the world it never will. Oh well I guess, as long as I get to do it. More me me me :(
That pretty much sums it up...thanks!!!!

[Torkdiesel]

I hope you folks never do go on a guided hunt anywhere. Imagine stealing those residents opportunities to their animals.

[Deer Hunter]

Being patient is one thing.
But telling your kids they may never hunt antelope in this province is another.
But a non resident can and will every year just by stroking a cheque.:snapoutofit:

[Ryry4]

Being patient is one thing.
But telling your kids they may never hunt antelope in this province is another.
But a non resident can and will every year just by stroking a cheque.:snapoutofit:

And you can hunt antelope out of province every year too.

The fact of the matter is Alberta has excellent hunting opportunities for residents and non-residents alike. We need to band together hunters resident and non, as well as the the outfitters if we want to keep the tradition of hunting alive.

[Deer Hunter]

And you can hunt antelope out of province every year too.

Not in Canada I can't.

[Ryry4]

Not in Canada I can't.

In Montana you can. :)

[hal53]

In Montana you can. :)
just have to wait a customs until the guy from Illinois clears to come and shoot one a mile from your house:)

[Deer Hunter]

In Montana you can. :)

Really? Over the counter tag? Or do I need to buy an outfitter? Or do I need to draw? Please tell me about Montana antelope hunting for Canadians.

The fact that outfitters are a parasite on Alberta resident opportunity isn't excused because I can go somewhere else to hunt. I live here, I would like to have opportunities here.

[elkhunter11]

And you can hunt antelope out of province every year too.

A tax paying resident should not have to wait in line for 10 or more years, while a non resident can hunt pronghorn in Alberta every year. Why should a resident have to pay a premium, to hunt abroad, when there are huntable numbers of pronghorn in the province that he lives, and pays taxes in?

If you want to bring up the financial benefits that a non resident hunter brings into Alberta, let's not forget the financial benefits that a resident contributes to Alberta every year. If I took my annual income tax, added my property taxes, then added up the amount of money that I spend in Alberta every year, it will be a great deal more than what the average non resident hunter contributes to the Alberta economy. As well, I do travel around the province to hunt , staying at hotels, buying gas and supplies at local businesses, and eating at local restaurants. If I have to go outside of Alberta to hunt, I won't be staying at Alberta hotels, and I won't be eating at Alberta restaurants, and more of my money will go to outside businesses, rather than to Alberta businesses.

[Torkdiesel]

Really? Over the counter tag? Or do I need to buy an outfitter? Or do I need to draw? Please tell me about Montana antelope hunting for Canadians.

The fact that outfitters are a parasite on Alberta resident opportunity isn't excused because I can go somewhere else to hunt. I live here, I would like to have opportunities here.

Me Me Me :(

Parasites really. You should be happy to have the amount of oportunity you do, other people would love to have anything near that.

[Torkdiesel]

Me Me Me :(

Parasites really. You should be happy to have the amount of oportunity you do, other people would love to have anything near that.

And yes over the counter non-resident tags in a few states, or land owners tags. Cheap hunts. Not free of course but they sure do welcome us non-residents. Not like our local ***** holes.

[Ryry4]

Really? Over the counter tag? Or do I need to buy an outfitter? Or do I need to draw? Please tell me about Montana antelope hunting for Canadians.

The fact that outfitters are a parasite on Alberta resident opportunity isn't excused because I can go somewhere else to hunt. I live here, I would like to have opportunities here.

Wow. It's nice to see us hunters sticking together.

[Torkdiesel]

A tax paying resident should not have to wait in line for 10 or more years, while a non resident can hunt pronghorn in Alberta every year. Why should a resident have to pay a premium, to hunt abroad, when there are huntable numbers of pronghorn in the province that he lives, and pays taxes in?

If you want to bring up the financial benefits that a non resident hunter brings into Alberta, let's not forget the financial benefits that a resident contributes to Alberta every year. If I took my annual income tax, added my property taxes, then added up the amount of money that I spend in Alberta every year, it will be a great deal more than what the average non resident hunter contributes to the Alberta economy. As well, I do travel around the province to hunt , staying at hotels, buying gas and supplies at local businesses, and eating at local restaurants. If I have to go outside of Alberta to hunt, I won't be staying at Alberta hotels, and I won't be eating at Alberta restaurants, and more of my money will go to outside businesses, rather than to Alberta businesses.

Your right Elkhunter, if we cut all the non-resident tags you would still only have to wait that same 10 years. But at least you would know you didn't have to share.

[Deer Hunter]

Me Me Me :(

Parasites really. You should be happy to have the amount of oportunity you do, other people would love to have anything near that.

The only people that are happy with the way it is is the outfitters. So bitch about residents, who have finally had enough, now speaking up based on outfitter abuse of the system.

[Ryry4]

The only people that are happy with the way it is is the outfitters. So bitch about residents, who have finally had enough, now speaking up based on outfitter abuse of the system.

I never had a problem with waiting when I lived in Alberta. I just made the best of the situation and took advantage of the great opportunities I had.

[Deer Hunter]

Wow. It's nice to see us hunters sticking together.

So you won't tell me about antelope in Montana. Didn't think you would.

I dont want to stick together with groups that blatantly screw residents out of opportunity. Nice try. I'll stick with residents that value equality and fairness however.

[elkhunter11]

Your right Elkhunter, if we cut all the non-resident tags you would still only have to wait that same 10 years. But at least you would know you didn't have to share.

Given that the number of outfitter allocations for pronghorns was as large or larger than the number or resident tags in some WMUs for the last two years, if those outfitter allocations were replaced with resident tags, at least twice as many resident hunters could have hunted pronghorn in those WMUs. That would have shortened the wait for some resident hunters.

If the pronghorn population does not quickly recover, and the number of resident tags does not increase for a few years, having outfitter tags issued, will increase the wait for residents, especially if the number of outfitter allocations is not reduced dramatically to match the reduction in resident tags. 10 outfitter allocations in a WMU doesn't mean much is there are 300 resident tags given out, but it becomes very significant when only 5-10 resident tags are issued in that WMU.

[Ryry4]

So you won't tell me about antelope in Montana. Didn't think you would.

I dont want to stick together with groups that blatantly screw residents out of opportunity. Nice try. I'll stick with residents that value equality and fairness however.

Kinda thought Tork answered the question. I've personally never hunted in Montana. My uncle has, apply for a tag in the areas in the eastern part of the state you'll get drawn every year usually sometimes here are tags left over you can buy across the counter. Access is easy to obtain on the ranches, sign in and head out, you don't need to hire an outfitter if you don't want to.

Does this help?

[TIMWOLF]

A tax paying resident should not have to wait in line for 10 or more years, while a non resident can hunt pronghorn in Alberta every year. Why should a resident have to pay a premium, to hunt abroad, when there are huntable numbers of pronghorn in the province that he lives, and pays taxes in?

If you want to bring up the financial benefits that a non resident hunter brings into Alberta, let's not forget the financial benefits that a resident contributes to Alberta every year. If I took my annual income tax, added my property taxes, then added up the amount of money that I spend in Alberta every year, it will be a great deal more than what the average non resident hunter contributes to the Alberta economy. As well, I do travel around the province to hunt , staying at hotels, buying gas and supplies at local businesses, and eating at local restaurants. If I have to go outside of Alberta to hunt, I won't be staying at Alberta hotels, and I won't be eating at Alberta restaurants, and more of my money will go to outside businesses, rather than to Alberta businesses.


Thanks EH11, I have been following this topic for quite a while and really could not have put better words in a thread to express how I feel about the Alberta situation.

I may be a hipocrit though as I do partake in quite a few guided trips outside of Alberta, but many if not most of the trips I have partook in practice much better approaches to this topic.

[Torkdiesel]

Given that the number of outfitter allocations for pronghorns was as large or larger than the number or resident tags in some WMUs for the last two years, if those outfitter allocations were replaced with resident tags, at least twice as many resident hunters could have hunted pronghorn in those WMUs. That would have shortened the wait for some resident hunters.

If the pronghorn population does not quickly recover, and the number of resident tags does not increase for a few years, having outfitter tags issued, will increase the wait for residents, especially if the number of outfitter allocations is not reduced dramatically to match the reduction in resident tags. 10 outfitter allocations in a WMU doesn't mean much is there are 300 resident tags given out, but it becomes very significant when only 5-10 resident tags are issued in that WMU.

Do you really believe that they would keep the outfitter allocation number at 10 if the residents only recieved 5-10 tags. It's up for review right now, it will be corrected.

You also picked the absolute worst case scenario to use as an example, it is not the norm.

And remember in 6 years when the antelope bounce back, they won't make a special re-instatement for the non-resident allocations. They will wait the remainder of the 5 year cycle, and so they should. Sometimes it benefits them, sometimes it benifits the residents.

Remember when you were a kid and your parents taught you how to share ???

[Deer Hunter]

Kinda thought Tork answered the question. I've personally never hunted in Montana. My uncle has, apply for a tag in the areas in the eastern part of the state you'll get drawn every year usually sometimes here are tags left over you can buy across the counter. Access is easy to obtain on the ranches, sign in and head out, you don't need to hire an outfitter if you don't want to.

Does this help?

You are not getting drawn there every year any more. I am hearing of guys that have put in for the last four years there without a tag. But I'm not sure if it is like that in all zones.

[hal53]

Do you really believe that they would keep the outfitter allocation number at 10 if the residents only recieved 5-10 tags. It's up for review right now, it will be corrected.

You also picked the absolute worst case scenario to use as an example, it is not the norm.

And remember in 6 years when the antelope bounce back, they won't make a special re-instatement for the non-resident allocations. They will wait the remainder of the 5 year cycle, and so they should. Sometimes it benefits them, sometimes it benifits the residents.

Remember when you were a kid and your parents taught you how to share ???
you Share when there is extra supply, when there isn't, you cut back accordingly...it's a fairly simple process that you seem to have a difficult time grasping???...oh right, that's because I'm an a******e local, hope you don't do your own PR for your outfit...Sheesh!!!!....

[elkhunter11]

Do you really believe that they would keep the outfitter allocation number at 10 if the residents only recieved 5-10 tags. It's up for review right now, it will be corrected.

You also picked the absolute worst case scenario to use as an example, it is not the norm.

And remember in 6 years when the antelope bounce back, they won't make a special re-instatement for the non-resident allocations. They will wait the remainder of the 5 year cycle, and so they should. Sometimes it benefits them, sometimes it benifits the residents.

So for the last two years the outfitters enjoyed 10 tags each year, or 20 tags in total, in a given WMU. Given that the residents only had 15 tags total, in the same two years in that same WMU, the outfitters should only have had 2 tags(10%) not the 20 that they had. They are already 18 tags ahead, and I really doubt that the allocation will be reduced from 10 to 2, to match the current resident tag numbers.

More likely APOS and SRD will predict a big recovery in the population and set the tag numbers at 8 or so, to reflect a predicted recovery, but to still give the appearance that they were concerned, and did reduce the allocations.. If the population does not recover as predicted, the allocations will still exceed 10%, and perhaps be at 20% or higher for a year or two. And if by some miracle, the population fully recovers in four years, and the allocations only add up to 8%, those 18 tags that they enjoyed in 2011/12 will more than make up the difference for the fourth and fifth year.

And five years from now, the allocations will be reviewed again, so your six year scenario makes no sense at all. It's not as if the pronghorn population will suddenly double one year after the five year review.

[Deer Hunter]

Remember when you were a kid and your parents taught you how to share ???

My parents told me not to believe everything that people told you.

In the case of outfitters sharing the tags, and telling everyone that its fair. The graphs below are the facts. So go bull**** someone else.

Another big problem is that you cant even trust ESRD to disseminate the information and keep hunters in the loop. And same goes for the numerous associations out there. It came down an individual and some FOIP applications that blew the top off of these "secrets". And some computer guy from calgary that put it into graphs.

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj188/AlbertaFleaBags/New%202013/2012TrophyAntelope_zps604ab817.png
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj188/AlbertaFleaBags/New%202013/2012archeryantelope_zps1f071854.png
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj188/AlbertaFleaBags/New%202013/400WMU_zpsd167dc02.jpg
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj188/AlbertaFleaBags/New%202013/300WMU_zps217a2894.jpg

[Ryry4]

So for the last two years the outfitters enjoyed 10 tags each year, or 20 tags in total, in a given WMU. Given that the residents only had 15 tags total, in the same two years in that same WMU, the outfitters should only have had 2 tags(10%) not the 20 that they had. They are already 18 tags ahead, and I really doubt that the allocation will be reduced from 10 to 2, to match the current resident tag numbers.

Out of the 20 tags did the outfitters book 100%? Just because they have allocation doesn't mean it was used.

[hal53]

Out of the 20 tags did the outfitters book 100%? Just because they have allocation doesn't mean it was used.
Give me a minute, I'll phone APOS and ask, they're pretty good about giving out little details such as that:scared0018:

[Ryry4]

Give me a minute, I'll phone APOS and ask, they're pretty good about giving out little details such as that:scared0018:

My point was just because they are allocated does not mean they were used. If an outfitter believes in conservation and protecting the future of wildlife they can choose for the greater good and hold off on selling the hunts.

[TIMWOLF]

:party0052:

[elkhunter11]

My point was just because they are allocated does not mean they were used. If an outfitter believes in conservation and protecting the future of wildlife they can choose for the greater good and hold off on selling the hunts.

Even if all 20 hunts were not booked, it might not be because the outfitters chose not to book them, it might be, because the the hunts simply didn't sell.

Now what do you think the chances are that only 2 hunts were sold because the outfitters were so concerned about staying at the target of 10%?

You seem really anxious to support outfitting in Alberta, for someone that isn't even an Alberta resident. But I can see why you would not care if an Alberta resident had to wait 20 years to draw a tag.

[Ryry4]

Even if all 20 hunts were not booked, it might not be because the outfitters chose not to book them, it might be, because the the hunts simply didn't sell.

Now what do you think the chances are that only 2 hunts were sold because the outfitters were so concerned about staying at the target of 10%?

You seem really anxious to support outfitting in Alberta, for someone that isn't even an Alberta resident. But I can see why you would not care if an Alberta resident had to wait 20 years to draw a tag.

Really man? Born and raised there still own land and pay taxes there. And have only been drawn for antelope once in the last 14 years of applying.

The point I'm trying to make, and I'll use small words for you is: If the tags were not used then no animals were harvested therefore no negative impact on the herd.

There are plenty of places for me to hunt where I now hang my hat. I'll hunt in BC and the NWT when I choose and when I want to hunt in Alberta the hunter host system will work just fine.

I stick up for outfitters because I've got good friends in the business and they're good people trying to make a living. I'll stand up for them just like anyone else I respect.

[pikergolf]

I am glad both Ryry and Tork are involved in the discussion because a lot of people are reading without commenting, and the motivation behind their arguments is showing through.

[packhuntr]

Deer hunter, i thought you were a whole lot cooler back when you were just showing some interesting data. Unfortunately for you, . You and Junkie and friends just dont get it, poor boyz..

[Ryry4]

I am glad both Ryry and Tork are involved in the discussion because a lot of people are reading without commenting, and the motivation behind their arguments is showing through.

I'm not sure what you mean there, my true motivation is to have hunters stop throwing stones at each other. We're are own worst enemies and if we don't band together we're going to loose it all.

I as much as anyone else wants proper management but if all the players in the game can't hold the government accountable we all loose in the long run.

[Deer Hunter]

Deer hunter, i thought you were a whole lot cooler back when you were just showing some interesting data. Unfortunately for you, MOST of Alberta just thinks your a tard now. You and Junkie and friends just dont get it, poor boyz..

Thanks. Coming from you that's a compliment.:bad_boys_20:

[elkhunter11]

Really man? Born and raised there still own land and pay taxes there. And have only been drawn for antelope once in the last 14 years of applying.

Yet unlike an Alberta resident, you can simply hire an outfitter, and as long as he has an allocation, you can hunt every year if you choose. Of course, you don't want to see that option disappear.

If the tags were not used then no animals were harvested therefore no negative impact on the herd.

That would also apply if the hunter misses his shots, or if the outfitter hires poor guides, that can't find the game. So poor guides, guiding poor shots is the best that we can hope for?

Whether or not an outfitter sells all of his hunts, or his hunters don't fill their tags, is irrelevant, the point is that the allocations are available, and can be used if the outfitter chooses to use them.

I as much as anyone else wants proper management but if all the players in the game can't hold the government accountable we all loose in the long run.

The government does need to be help accountable, in managing our game populations, but APOS could care less about the resident hunter, they only care about getting the most for themselves. If APOS really cared about our resources, they wouldn't allow convicted poachers and convicted criminals to remain as members.

[whitetail Junkie]

Really man? Born and raised there still own land and pay taxes there. And have only been drawn for antelope once in the last 14 years of applying.

The point I'm trying to make, and I'll use small words for you is: If the tags were not used then no animals were harvested therefore no negative impact on the herd.

There are plenty of places for me to hunt where I now hang my hat. I'll hunt in BC and the NWT when I choose and when I want to hunt in Alberta the hunter host system will work just fine.

I stick up for outfitters because I've got good friends in the business and they're good people trying to make a living. I'll stand up for them just like anyone else I respect.

After looking at the 2011/2012 Trophy pictures on websites of Two Alberta outfitters who have the most antelope allocations in Alberta,I can tell you right now that they used all there antelope allocations,so that obviously tells me,that they are more concerened about themselves and not the Stability of Alberta's wildlife.....both of these outfitters are Directors within Apos....

I have alot of great friends on here and in my province.... I will be respecting them by fighting for the hunting Rights of the Alberta resident.

A chit sandwich is on the menu....Time for the outfitters,to take there bite & swallow!

[nube]

I don't know whether to say anything in this discussion or not and have tried to bite my tongue. Some of the comments here sure make me laugh.
Although I do not like the way things are currently myself I also wonder what would happen if there were changes and what really you would be o.k with.

To me it seems half of you are jelous that if a guy wants to come and shoot a speedgoat every year that he should not be allowed. Well if they changed that you still would complain and the new complaint would be now that there are too many tags. Boo hoo! Ya the system sucks but you can go hunt lopes all you want every year. Heck you could go shoot a dozen of them if you want. Just pay the price like the others are doing. Drive to Wyoming and get an over the counter tag. Put a draw in for a couple of States. Pay the couple grand for a guided landowner tag and shoot a big speedgoat. Come on boys it's the same rules on both sides of the fence.

[whitetail Junkie]

Deer hunter, i thought you were a whole lot cooler back when you were just showing some interesting data. Unfortunately for you, MOST of Alberta just thinks your a f...tard now. You and Junkie and friends just dont get it, pizz poor boyz..

Hypocrite.....lol

[grinr]

IMO,the entire argument from outfitters that they MUST HAVE gauranteed allocations innorder to conduct their business is just plain and simply BS!
1)There are thousands of successful outfitting operations throughout North America that book hunters AFTER they are successfully drawn for a tag.
2)These 5 year deals are a ****poor way to manage any resource,let alone game populations that are subject to wild fluctuations.Allocations should be assessed on a year to year basis,same as resident tag quotas,and reduced or increased proportionately.If an outfitter loses 2 of his 10 moose tags in a given year,tough luck.Booked hunters get bumped,thats life,and it should be explained at the time of booking.
3)If outfitters lose allocations compared to previous years,they arent out anything,simply charge more for the hunts that you can offer.Again,if you are reduced from 10 to 8 tags for example,charge 25% mote for the 8 tags that you have and the revenue is unchanged.Obviously theres a limit in regards to how much increase the market can stand,but its simple supply and demand.Sport dont want to pay $10K for an allocated Alberta moose tag??Fine,go ahead and apply for 15years for NB moose tag,then book the hunt for
$2500.Supply and demand.....just look at the price of sheep,goat,griz,polar bear hunts to name a few.....they will pay to play,your gauranteed tag/we need allocation stability argument doesnt hold any water....Total BS!!

[hal53]

I don't know whether to say anything in this discussion or not and have tried to bite my tongue. Some of the comments here sure make me laugh.
Although I do not like the way things are currently myself I also wonder what would happen if there were changes and what really you would be o.k with.

To me it seems half of you are jelous that if a guy wants to come and shoot a speedgoat every year that he should not be allowed. Well if they changed that you still would complain and the new complaint would be now that there are too many tags. Boo hoo! Ya the system sucks but you can go hunt lopes all you want every year. Heck you could go shoot a dozen of them if you want. Just pay the price like the others are doing. Drive to Wyoming and get an over the counter tag. Put a draw in for a couple of States. Pay the couple grand for a guided landowner tag and shoot a big speedgoat. Come on boys it's the same rules on both sides of the fence.
sigh...you are totally missing the point....

[packhuntr]

Keep spewing your garbage junkie lol! You mention hypocrites hey,, im guessing your crew has hung up your hats on out of province hunts, eh there hypocrite lol. Rather than practicing what you preach i bet you just keep your two faces instead i guess though hey lolol

[nube]

Keep spewing your garbage junkie lol! You mention hypocrites hey,, im guessing your crew has hung up your hats on out of province hunts, eh there hypocrite lol. Rather than practicing what you preach i bet you just keep your two faces instead i guess though hey lolol

I don't think his crew really hunts anything but deer Packhuntr. lol Not sure if Junkie even hunts deer himself anymore. All he does is post other peoples pictures.

And if I have been banned more than once Junkie that would be news to me!


And What point was I missing Hal? There seems to be quite a few of them on here and thought I would take a stab at one of them:)

[whitetail Junkie]

Keep spewing your garbage junkie lol! You mention hypocrites hey,, im guessing your crew has hung up your hats on out of province hunts, eh there hypocrite lol. Rather than practicing what you preach i bet you just keep your two faces instead i guess though hey lolol

:) ya,I guess me,Jason and dad are hypocrites we hunt whitetail for 6 days in sask,canada.I
guess our mutual friend kelly is a hypocrite aswell,because we both know how he feels about outfitting in Alberta.

[hal53]

I don't think his crew really hunts anything but deer Packhuntr. lol Not sure if Junkie even hunts deer himself anymore. All he does is post other peoples pictures.

And if I have been banned more than once Junkie that would be news to me!


And What point was I missing Hal? There seems to be quite a few of them on here and thought I would take a stab at one of them:)
The point being Bud, that I would rather hunt an animal in my own province than travel to shoot something I can see 2 milesfrom my door step...?????
Before APOS and their crap came along, no one had any problems with guides/outfitters running their operations, as soon as the greedy hands got involved, a $125.00 allocation was suddenly worth 100k, see where there might be a problem???

[Ryry4]

Maybe you shouldnt have said anything....wouldnt want to see ya get banned from here for the 3rd or 4th time in a year.......your above post is spoken like a true outfitter.

Throwing stones won't get us anywhere. And I agree with what Nube said.

Let's change the system up, make non-residents apply for tags like most of the western US.

I will say this though, I find the hunters down here way more willing to help each other out whether they're resident or not. When I beat the odds and drew a desert sheep tag on my second year I never had on Nevada resident hate on me because they'd been waiting for years, they just congratulated me.

One more time for the cheap seats, gov't is the problem we need to rally together to fix the problem.

[elkhunter11]

And What point was I missing Hal? There seems to be quite a few of them on here and thought I would take a stab at one of them

I think the main point that most people are trying to make, is that tax paying Alberta residents, should have priority when it comes to hunting in Alberta. There is no way that a non resident should be able to hunt a species in Alberta when the Alberta resident that owns the property that the animal lives on, has to wait many years to draw a tag.

When I beat the odds and drew a desert sheep tag on my second year I never had on Nevada resident hate on me because they'd been waiting for years, they just congratulated me.

Do you think that perhaps that might have been because you had to actually draw the tag, just like everyone else? It might have been seen very differently if you could have just purchased the tag from an outfitter, when they had to wait years to draw?

[packhuntr]

Ya thanks for checkin me up Nube. Ya i forgot, hardened deer crew, rifle only, bow hunters are unethical hacks lolol.

Edit. Nice There junkie. Mutual friends, is what it is. I dont need to take runs at people because they think differently, nor do i have to dislike them. Where i have a problem is with punks like yourself that find continual sport in the past of taking runs at anyone that disagrees with you on this one. You have alot of growing up and personal educating to do. Fortunately for kids like you, theres time lol

[whitetail Junkie]

I don't think his crew really hunts anything but deer Packhuntr. lol Not sure if Junkie even hunts deer himself anymore. All he does is post other peoples pictures.

And if I have been banned more than once Junkie that would be news to me!


And What point was I missing Hal? There seems to be quite a few of them on here and thought I would take a stab at one of them:)

Two legal big horn rams and Mountain goat last year nube....when I shot the mountain goat,I was 2000' above where the sheep were....and of coarse theres always deer....dad's 191" 2012 whitetail,is still lookin alright.

Troll on,nube,just lucky,blaserman,or whatever you are calling yourself these days...

[Duk Dog]

Boy things are all over the map on this one. One thing is for sure - changes are certainly needed. I do see the need for priority for residents BUT I also see the need and value for non resident opportunities as well. I know having those opportunities in other provinces, and other countries is great - and they are there for those that choose to take advantage of them.
With all of the back and forth banter in this thread the hardest thing to understand is the apparent desire of some to outright eliminate NR opportunities in Alberta and yet some of these same people have in the past, and no doubt will in the future take advantage of the hunting opportunities in other provinces and countries. Seems hypocritical.

[nube]

Throwing stones won't get us anywhere. And I agree with what Nube said.

Let's change the system up, make non-residents apply for tags like most of the western US.

I will say this though, I find the hunters down here way more willing to help each other out whether they're resident or not. When I beat the odds and drew a desert sheep tag on my second year I never had on Nevada resident hate on me because they'd been waiting for years, they just congratulated me.

One more time for the cheap seats, gov't is the problem we need to rally together to fix the problem.

Best post of the night. Fix the problems guys don't sit here and complain.

Realistically what would you be o.k with?

Hal, we all would love to hunt in our province instead of travelling but non residents would like that as well.

Problem is it is going to get real bad in the next ten years. You have half of the Easteners here now that were not 10 years ago and Alberta is about to double in numbers as well in the next ten years. You are going to be on long draws to get a tag either way you look at it. Get used to it. The good old days are long gone. Save some pennies and start looking for other places to hunt because your waits for hunts at home are going to be spaced out with or without non resident pressure

[Pixel Shooter]

Tone it down boys :thinking-006:

[Ryry4]

I think the main point that most people are trying to make, is that tax paying Alberta residents, should have priority when it comes to hunting in Alberta. There is no way that a non resident should be able to hunt a species in Alberta when the Alberta resident that owns the property that the animal lives on, has to wait many years to draw a tag.



Do you think that perhaps that might have been because you had to actually draw the tag, just like everyone else? It might have been seen very differently if you could have just purchased the tag from an outfitter, when they had to wait years to draw?

I own property and pay taxes in Alberta.:)

And no I don't think it made a difference, buying tags is an option in most states.

[Deer Hunter]

Edit out

[Ryry4]

Boy things are all over the map on this one. One thing is for sure - changes are certainly needed. I do see the need for priority for residents BUT I also see the need and value for non resident opportunities as well. I know having those opportunities in other provinces, and other countries is great - and they are there for those that choose to take advantage of them.
With all of the back and forth banter in this thread the hardest thing to understand is the apparent desire of some to outright eliminate NR opportunities in Alberta and yet some of these same people have in the past, and no doubt will in the future take advantage of the hunting opportunities in other provinces and countries. Seems hypocritical.

Exactly.

[elkhunter11]

I own property and pay taxes in Alberta.

But you are not an Alberta resident.


With all of the back and forth banter in this thread the hardest thing to understand is the apparent desire of some to outright eliminate NR opportunities in Alberta and yet some of these same people have in the past, and no doubt will in the future take advantage of the hunting opportunities in other provinces and countries. Seems hypocritical.

I for one, am not totally against outfitting. I have no issue with outfitting for species in wmus where a resident can hunt with a general tag, or where there are normally less applicants than available tags. I am however, for putting tax paying Alberta residents first in line. If a resident has to apply in a draw to get a tag, then non residents should not be allowed in that WMU. For species such as pronghorn, I am totally against outfitted hunts. I like Saskatchewan's approach to outfitted hunting.

[nube]

Well I am off to bed and logging out. I will leave with the same question I asked earlier.
What is it going to take for residents to be happy?

[Duk Dog]

I for one, am not totally against outfitting. I have no issue with outfitting for species in wmus where a resident can hunt with a general tag, or where there are normally less applicants than available tags. I am however, for putting tax paying Alberta residents first in line. If a resident has to apply in a draw to get a tag, then non residents should not be allowed in that WMU. For species such as pronghorn, I am totally against outfitted hunts. I like Saskatchewan's approach to outfitted hunting.

Well I respect your opinion on this. Here in lies the rub. As per this thread it looks like we can all agree that things here in Alberta are in a certain degree of turmoil - for a number of reasons. I do not profess to know what the answers or solution are - and worse yet I'm not sure who does.

[hal53]

Well I am off to bed and logging out. I will leave with the same question I asked earlier.
What is it going to take for residents to be happy?
see Elkhunters post above yours....good night:)

[Ryry4]

But you are not an Alberta resident.

But I still pay taxes. Now shouldn't I be allowed the same opportunities? ;)

If not paying into the Provincial coffer is a reason to keep non-residents out then shouldn't I get the same perks as a resident? :)

[Ryry4]

Well I respect your opinion on this. Here in lies the rub. As per this thread it looks like we can all agree that things here in Alberta are in a certain degree of turmoil - for a number of reasons. I do not profess to know what the answers or solution is - and worse yet I'm not sure who does.

I think 10% of available tags is fine, the problem is that allocation is not being regulated by the government.

[elkhunter11]

If not paying into the Provincial coffer is a reason to keep non-residents out then shouldn't I get the same perks as a resident?


I was just pointing out the excuse that non resident hunters bring money into the province, is not valid, because Alberta residents, which you are not, contribute more to the Alberta economy than the average non resident hunter does.

I think 10% of available tags is fine, the problem is that allocation is not being regulated by the government.

Being that you aren't even an Alberta resident,your opinion is really irrelevant. Alberta should be run by Albertans, for Albertans.

[packhuntr]

see Elkhunters post above yours....good night:)

Hal, you guys know a small handful of tags makes zero difference. Wanna guess how many canadians utilize our small sampling of pronghorn tags,,, its huge. Ask those bc boys over on bc outdoors site how many guys have been fortunate enough to come here to harvest a one and only pronghorn... Now you boyz need to take a look around yourselves on here, cause theres alot of guys that spent time there as well. Id love to do the same as some of our peers here and go for a hunt of a lifetime on a poor mans budget... Mine if i get to do it and if they reciprocate with afew nonres tags like we do, will be a BC mountain goat and a lynx & bobat. I hope one day it happens for me. This goes way past alberta and bc, it was just a small mans example and it reflects my and other small guys thoughts. It doesnt need to be more complicated than that, because it isnt really. There are many with these sentiments, and its troubling that there are people so clouded with greed they cannot see past themselves and the here and now.

[Ryry4]

I was just pointing out the excuse that non resident hunters bring money into the province, is not valid, because Alberta residents, which you are not, contribute more to the Alberta economy than the average non resident hunter does.

And I'm just pointing out that I contribute to the Alberta economy just like a resident and I'm not currently a resident. So is it really not that valid? :)

[elkhunter11]

And I'm just pointing out that I contribute to the Alberta economy just like a resident.

Do you pay Alberta income tax? I visit other provinces and states, but I don't file taxes or qualify as a resident there, so I don't claim to contribute "just like a resident" even though I do spend some money there.

[Ryry4]

I was just pointing out the excuse that non resident hunters bring money into the province, is not valid, because Alberta residents, which you are not, contribute more to the Alberta economy than the average non resident hunter does.



Being that you aren't even an Alberta resident, it really doesn't matter what you think. Alberta should be run by Albertans, for Albertans.

Oh, I'm an Albertan through and through. I find you're hatred for your fellow hunter and man very troubling. Like I said before we need to band together.

[Ryry4]

Do you pay Alberta income tax? I visit other provinces and states, but I don't file taxes or qualify as a resident there, so I don't claim to contribute:just like a resident" even though I do spend some money there.

Yup.

[elkhunter11]

Oh, I'm an Albertan through and through. I find you're hatred for your fellow hunter and man very troubling. Like I said before we need to band together.

No hatred at all, but I don't believe that a non resident should have any say in how we run things in Alberta. If you really care about how things are done in Alberta, become a resident, and have your say.

As for banding together, I will support other hunters whose priority is managing Alberta for Alberta hunters, by putting residents ahead of all others, obviously you don't feel that way.

[Huevos]

Wow, lots of thoughts here. I am having trouble believing that Albertans would take away all hunting opportunities to those not as fortunate as us in where they live and what species are locally available. I have too many animals on the list that aren't available here. Stone sheep, Dall sheep, caribou, grizzly, blacktail, sitka deer to name a few. I guess if I had more money,.... or my priorities straight, I could hunt one or two of these every year in the next province over. I agree that it sucks when hunting opportunities are lost. I agree that our current system is flawed. I don't have the answers, I wish I did. I do, however, hope that when I finally decide to go on a stone sheep hunt, I will be able to access a tag somehow in another region, because I would be pretty hard pressed to get one here.

[Ryry4]

My thoughts on the subject were not any different when I was a resident of Alberta.

[elkhunter11]

My thoughts on the subject were not any different when I was a resident of Alberta.

But you were a resident, which gave you a right to a say in how things are done in Alberta. Now as a non resident, you have no more say in Alberta, than I do in Saskatchewan. And since I gave up my Saskatchewan resident status when I moved, I leave their policies to the Saskatchewan residents, who do deserve a say in how their province is run. If they let me hunt in Saskatchewan as a non resident, I am grateful, if they shut down non resident hunting, then I won't be complaining, because as a non resident, I don't have the right to complain.

[Ryry4]

Wow, lots of thoughts here. I am having trouble believing that Albertans would take away all hunting opportunities to those not as fortunate as us in where they live and what species are locally available. I have too many animals on the list that aren't available here. Stone sheep, Dall sheep, caribou, grizzly, blacktail, sitka deer to name a few. I guess if I had more money,.... or my priorities straight, I could hunt one or two of these every year in the next province over. I agree that it sucks when hunting opportunities are lost. I agree that our current system is flawed. I don't have the answers, I wish I did. I do, however, hope that when I finally decide to go on a stone sheep hunt, I will be able to access a tag somehow in another region, because I would be pretty hard pressed to get one here.

Good post, the system is flawed and fighting amongst ourselves won't change it. Like I said before, gov't is the problem.

When you're ready to go stone sheep hunting let me know, I have friends that have an outfit in BC, I plan on going this fall. Save your pennies though it's not a cheap hunt.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Simple shutdown tags for nonresidents and outfitters on sensitive species in Alberta ..... Sheep, Moose, Pronghorns and Mule Deer.

Allow nonresidents to hunt bears and white tails, in WMUs where there is a general season for them and no draw.

Then that will make everyone happy.

LC :)

[bobalong]

My point was just because they are allocated does not mean they were used. If an outfitter believes in conservation and protecting the future of wildlife they can choose for the greater good and hold off on selling the hunts.

I appreciate that you are supporting your friends that are guides, that is what friends do. However do you not find it a bit strange that these type of threads have been going on for a few months, and not one outfitter, not one, has come on here and stated that he did what you suggested?

I am not suggesting that outfitters should be consulting the hunters of Alberta on how to run their business, but their and APOS silence on this whole issue, is not reflecting well on them IMO.

[pikergolf]

Oh, I'm an Albertan through and through. I find you're hatred for your fellow hunter and man very troubling. Like I said before we need to band together.

How come band together always means I have to agree with you? I think most Albertans would fall in with what Elk said, no NR where residents have to wait years for a draw. Why don't you come band together with us? I'd bet it's a majority opinion. And Pack, greed would be throwing your fellow citizens under the bus and cut their chances, just so you don't feel disadvantaged when you look outside the province.

[Torkdiesel]

Simple shutdown tags for nonresidents and outfitters on sensitive species in Alberta ..... Sheep, Moose, Pronghorns and Mule Deer.

Allow nonresidents to hunt bears and white tails, in WMUs where there is a general season for them and no draw.

Then that will make everyone happy.

LC :)

It will only make the greedier residents happy. I agree it has to be controled and regulated to 10% non-resident allocation with no exceptions. But what is wrong with sharing our resource.

What if BC and the Yukon shut down it's stone sheep and goat and grizzly. What if the Yukon and NWT shut down moose and dall sheep. I want to hunt all these one day. What if the other provinces started playing the Me Me Me game ? Would that be OK as long as you got to keep everything in alberta for yourselves ?

[Ryry4]

I appreciate that you are supporting your friends that are guides, that is what friends do. However do you not find it a bit strange that these type of threads have been going on for a few months, and not one outfitter, not one, has come on here and stated that he did what you suggested?

I am not suggesting that outfitters should be consulting the hunters of Alberta on how to run their business, but their and APOS silence on this whole issue, is not reflecting well on them IMO.

From what I've read in the past as soon as an outfitter comes on and says he's one the flaming really begins. So I'm not surprised they steer clear. APOS is they're own worst enemy I'm not denying that.

I think the system can be fixed without shutting it down to people from outside Alberta. We as hunters need to put the right politicians in power first and foremost and learn to live with each other. How many threads do we see that are resident vs non-resident, bow vs rifle, road hunter vs stand hunter and so on. Let's work together to fix the problem so we all win in the end.

[purgatory.sv]

Simple shutdown tags for nonresidents and outfitters on sensitive species in Alberta ..... Sheep, Moose, Pronghorns and Mule Deer.

Allow nonresidents to hunt bears and white tails, in WMUs where there is a general season for them and no draw.

Then that will make everyone happy.

LC :)



given all that has been said i could see this as a start.

[Ryry4]

How come band together always means I have to agree with you? I think most Albertans would fall in with what Elk said, no NR where residents have to wait years for a draw. Why don't you come band together with us? I'd bet it's a majority opinion. And Pack, greed would be throwing your fellow citizens under the bus and cut their chances, just so you don't feel disadvantaged when you look outside the province.

You don't have to agree with me that's fine, but why not work together to fix the problem? It starts with SRD.

[elkhunter11]

As a concerned Alberta resident, taxpayer, and voter, I have sent about a dozen e-mails on the topic to various groups and individuals, including SRD,the ministers,my MLA, the premier, and several names that were posted here of people that have a say in this. I have only had one positive reply, and that was from Ron Bjorge who is a director at SRD. Hopefully other concerned people sent letters, and some good will come from our efforts.

[pikergolf]

It will only make the greedier residents happy. I agree it has to be controled and regulated to 10% non-resident allocation with no exceptions. But what is wrong with sharing our resource.

What if BC and the Yukon shut down it's stone sheep and goat and grizzly. What if the Yukon and NWT shut down moose and dall sheep. I want to hunt all these one day. What if the other provinces started playing the Me Me Me game ? Would that be OK as long as you got to keep everything in alberta for yourselves ?

So really the only person your worried about is you and your chances to hunt elsewhere. The rest of us are supposed to suck it up because if we don't, you think it might hurt your chances elsewhere? Talk about greedy?:) If there is not enough for our own residents why would invite others in? If there is enough, fair enough bring NR in.

[Torkdiesel]

So really the only person your worried about is you and your chances to hunt elsewhere. The rest of us are supposed to suck it up because if we don't, you think it might hurt your chances elsewhere? Talk about greedy?:) If there is not enough for our own residents why would invite others in? If there is enough, fair enough bring NR in.

Greedy ??? because I want to see everybody be able to enjoy our resources ? Or because I want other provinces to continue doing the same ?

And there is plenty for our own residents, we have some of the best hunting in North America.

I don't think 10% for non-residents is unreasonable or greedy

[bobalong]

From what I've read in the past as soon as an outfitter comes on and says he's one the flaming really begins. So I'm not surprised they steer clear. APOS is they're own worst enemy I'm not denying that.

I think the system can be fixed without shutting it down to people from outside Alberta. We as hunters need to put the right politicians in power first and foremost and learn to live with each other. How many threads do we see that are resident vs non-resident, bow vs rifle, road hunter vs stand hunter and so on. Let's work together to fix the problem so we all win in the end.

I have probably not seen every outfitter post, but my point was with regard to your statement about outfitters not selling tags, specifically to benefit species that have had a drastic decline, I have never seen one of those.

Hunters including myself would like someone, anyone to answer or explain why something isn't being done now, about the tag % allocations. Some of the info deer hunter posted opened a lot of eyes about just how bad some of the WMU in the province are. It is a little hard to explain to and convince hunters in the province that outfitters who guide in the area, and know it well, did not know that the populations in some areas were in big trouble, but apparently did nothing really to help.

You can appreciate now that some of the info has come to light, the hunters may not be willing to partner and be all buddies with the outfitters in the province. Partnerships have to work both ways, how have the outfitters in the province been working with the hunters?

[pikergolf]

Greedy ??? because I want to see everybody be able to enjoy our resources ? Or because I want other provinces to continue doing the same ?

And there is plenty for our own residents, we have some of the best hunting in North America.

I don't think 10% for non-residents is unreasonable or greedy

If that 10% comes from non draw areas neither do I. Is waiting 10 yrs, while NR don't wait reasonable?

[pikergolf]

• In Alberta you are Guaranteed Tags, no waiting for draws.

That's right off the front page of the APOS website, things that make you go hmmm.....

[Torkdiesel]

If that 10% comes from non draw areas neither do I. Is waiting 10 yrs, while NR don't wait reasonable?

I have no problem with giving up a small percentage of tags, it makes very little difference to residents but a huge difference to the outfitters. It means being able to operate or not.

[Ryry4]

I have probably not seen every outfitter post, but my point was with regard to your statement about outfitters not selling tags, specifically to benefit species that have had a drastic decline, I have never seen one of those.

Hunters including myself would like someone, anyone to answer or explain why something isn't being done now, about the tag % allocations. Some of the info deer hunter posted opened a lot of eyes about just how bad some of the WMU in the province are. It is a little hard to explain to and convince hunters in the province that outfitters who guide in the area, and know it well, did not know that the populations in some areas were in big trouble, but apparently did nothing really to help.

You can appreciate now that some of the info has come to light, the hunters may not be willing to partner and be all buddies with the outfitters in the province. Partnerships have to work both ways, how have the outfitters in the province been working with the hunters?

I can't say why none of them have spoken up, couldn't even tell you how many are on here. I do know a couple Alberta guides I know won't log on because how they've been treated in the past.

The problem wih tag numbers needs to be changed at the government level. I honestly don't know if some outfitters held back on selling hunts in areas that are hurting, if they cared about the future I would hope they would have.
I don't think I stated that some outfitters had held off on selling hunts, just that if they cared about the future the could have.

[Torkdiesel]

• In Alberta you are Guaranteed Tags, no waiting for draws.

That's right off the front page of the APOS website, things that make you go hmmm.....

If this was not the case outfitting in Alberta would be almost non-existant overnight. Other then whitetail or black bear.

[Ryry4]

• In Alberta you are Guaranteed Tags, no waiting for draws.

That's right off the front page of the APOS website, things that make you go hmmm.....

It's true. Same in BC, NWT, Yukon and some western states.

[pikergolf]

I have no problem with giving up a small percentage of tags, it makes very little difference to residents but a huge difference to the outfitters. It means being able to operate or not.

Really, little difference to a resident? Hunt or sit out another year for one person. Why is the outfitter more important than a resident in your eyes? How do you attach value?

[elkhunter11]

I have no problem with giving up a small percentage of tags, it makes very little difference to residents but a huge difference to the outfitters. It means being able to operate or not.

That is the risk that you take when you go into business. Surely you must have realized that game populations do fluctuate, and that your allocations could be reduced to match the population fluctuations. If you didn't realize that,you didn't prepare properly before you went into the business of outfitting.
And if that is the case, do you really expect the Alberta residents to make even more concessions,because your business plan didn't take allocation reductions into account? What happens if the numbers go so low that all resident hunting is stopped in a WMU. Do you then expect SRD to allow an outfitter harvest, even if the numbers are so low that their biologists say that the population is too low to allow any harvest,without further threatening the population?
Now who really is the greedy one? Who is really all about Me,Me,Me?

[Rhino81]

I have probably not seen every outfitter post, but my point was with regard to your statement about outfitters not selling tags, specifically to benefit species that have had a drastic decline, I have never seen one of those.

Hunters including myself would like someone, anyone to answer or explain why something isn't being done now, about the tag % allocations. Some of the info deer hunter posted opened a lot of eyes about just how bad some of the WMU in the province are. It is a little hard to explain to and convince hunters in the province that outfitters who guide in the area, and know it well, did not know that the populations in some areas were in big trouble, but apparently did nothing really to help.

You can appreciate now that some of the info has come to light, the hunters may not be willing to partner and be all buddies with the outfitters in the province. Partnerships have to work both ways, how have the outfitters in the province been working with the hunters?do what about what? I hunt in 6 wmu's every year for the past 17 years and nothing has changed. So I wait 4 years and not 3 for a mule deer tag. Maybe a select group will start writing letters to the srd, MLA, and the wambulance because of all the whining. I hope things never change. I love this province and the opportunity I have to hunt in it. I also love that I get to take Americans out in November to hunt deer. Wonderful people that are forever thankfull that they to get this opportunity. This is
he fourth or so thread about this. Pathetic.

[grinr]

I think 10% of available tags is fine, the problem is that allocation is not being regulated by the government.
Agreed,allocations need to be adjusted annually just like resident quotas,5year gaurantee is BS on soooo many levels.

Simple shutdown tags for nonresidents and outfitters on sensitive species in Alberta ..... Sheep, Moose, Pronghorns and Mule Deer.

Allow nonresidents to hunt bears and white tails, in WMUs where there is a general season for them and no draw.

Then that will make everyone happy.

LC :)
I dont agree that its necesary to shut out non-res or outfitter allocations for any species or season,draw or not,so long as allocations are kept at 10% and adjusted annually,but thats not the case as we've seen over and over again.In some zones/seasons,OAs with their 5 year deals end up accounting for 50-60,70% of all tags as resident quotas get reduced....and that aint right!



I don't think 10% for non-residents is unreasonable or greedy
Me neither if its kept at 10% thru annual review process.

I have no problem with giving up a small percentage of tags, it makes very little difference to residents but a huge difference to the outfitters. It means being able to operate or not.
First of all,again,I agree,10% makes very little difference to the resident hunter....maybe one extra year for a P9 draw?
But I disagree with "being able to operate or not".Thats BS,lots of other operations do just fine without gauranteed tags,and if Alberta outfitters cant make it on their own,that tells me there is too many outfits to begin with and the "herd" needs to be culled.

If this was not the case outfitting in Alberta would be almost non-existant overnight. Other then whitetail or black bear.
Again......survival of the fittest.IMO,outfitting is not much different than commercial fishing,or at least it shouldnt be?You are counting on harvesting a resource that fluctuates,and then claim you need gauranteed quotas to stay in business?Pretty sweet deal at the expense of Alberta residents,yes?Not my fault you overpaid for allocations in the first place.Try getting a bank to finance a Fundy lobster licence that were going for $300K 10 years ago.....they WON'T,because it has no REAL value or measurable equity,it's a godam piece of paper that DFO can deem worthless at any time.Allocations are no different IMHO?Just because ypu paid xxxx thousands of dollars for an allocation,it aint worth jack if SRD decides that quotas need to be reduced in the name of conservation and sound game management,but APOS beleives these quotas should be carved in stone and the only ones that must sacrifice opportunity when times are tough are the residents?? WTF??

[Torkdiesel]

That is the risk that you take when you go into business. Surely you must have realized that game populations do fluctuate, and that your allocations could be reduced to match the population fluctuations. If you didn't realize that,you didn't prepare properly before you went into the business of outfitting.
And if that is the case, do you really expect the Alberta residents to make even more concessions,because your business plan didn't take allocation reductions into account? What happens if the numbers go so low that all resident hunting is stopped in a WMU. Do you then expect SRD to allow an outfitter harvest, even if the numbers are so low that their biologists say that the population is too low to allow any harvest,without further threatening the population?
Now who really is the greedy one? Who is really all about Me,Me,Me?

Of course I did. I have no problem with the allocations being cut back to the 10% mark. If the game population cannot sustain a harvest then suspend all hunting until it recovers, residents and non-residents.
My issue is with the ones who want to cut out all non-resident tags if every Albertan can't by an over the counter tag in whatever zone he wants. To me that's not fair.
The greedy ones I'm refering to are the ones that can't share at all. Residents get 90% of the tags, non-residents only 10% Who is truly greedy ?

I am of course speaking historically, not in the last 2 years when some of the percentages have been scued. But they will return to historic levels and hopefully continue on like this long into the future.

[Rhino81]

Of course I did. I have no problem with the allocations being cut back to the 10% mark. If the game population cannot sustain a harvest then suspend all hunting until it recovers, residents and non-residents.
My issue is with the ones who want to cut out all non-resident tags if every Albertan can't by an over the counter tag in whatever zone he wants. To me that's not fair.
The greedy ones I'm refering to are the ones that can't share at all. Residents get 90% of the tags, non-residents only 10% Who is truly greedy ?

I am of course speaking historically, not in the last 2 years when some of the percentages have been scued. But they will return to historic levels and hopefully continue on like this long into the future.well spoken!!!! It is extremely hard to try and get through to "some of these guys" but at least you tried, and for that "we" thank you.

[Torkdiesel]

First of all,again,I agree,10% makes very little difference to the resident hunter....maybe one extra year for a P9 draw?
But I disagree with "being able to operate or not".Thats BS,lots of other operations do just fine without gauranteed tags,and if Alberta outfitters cant make it on their own,that tells me there is too many outfits to begin with and the "herd" needs to be culled.

How would I compete with British Columbia, NWT, Yukon, Manitoba, Ontario when booking hunters if I couldn't even promise my client a tag ? He would try once and if not succesful book in another province. The other provinces would be ecstatic if this was to happpen in Alberta.

And what percentage would the non-residents be allowed to apply on ? This seems to be everybodies solution but would they be applying on all tags available per zone with the residents ? Or would we allocate a .5% for the non-residents ? or is that still too much ?

Alberta outfitts would have no chance to make it on their own :(

[Big Daddy Badger]

One of Alberta's big selling points in the outfitting/Guided hunts industry is our guarenteed tag system. No drawing or booking hunts on speculation that one might draw. If you take that away the industry will most likely fold or only exist in a shadow of what it once was. This might not mean anything to you but to many people it is a way of life we love. If only on a part time basis anymore.

I have no issue with the outfitters getting their 10% share of the total tags, and it will return to that after this major drop in resident tags and 5 year allocation review is finished. Just lots to figure out in the meantime.

Nobody wants to loose what they had. Be it residents or outfitters, but these times are changing and everybody will have to give a little for the greater cause of wildlife management.

Less guides means more customers per guide that relies upon this alone for his income.
Increase prices marginally and prepare for a tougher racket.

Sorry Dude...sounds like the sort of thing most people in business might have to put up with.

I do empithize with you and I'm not assigning fault to you directly but you do keep some poor company in that little club you belong to and I would hope that you'd welcome a house cleaning.... in the interest of wildlife.

That said... our heritage and out traditions and our right and our way of life is certainly higher on my listy of priorities than individuuals profits.
Sorry.
I just don't think we should all give up our preogative for the sake of a few guys bottom lines.

There are too many outfitters here and too many of em are fly by night or not skating straight.... and the result is that the goovernement has been influenced to ride roughshod over people who do this thing called hunting because they love it... not because there is money to be made from it.

Now...like I said... I'm not suggesting you are a a problem and with that in mind.

Good luck.:)

[Big Daddy Badger]

:)well spoken!!!! It is extremely hard to try and get through to "some of these guys" but at least you tried, and for that "we" thank you.

Good tactic... poke em with a stick.

Yup... thats the way to make friends.

Nice to know how you all really feel about folks who are giving something up so you can earn but aren't actually paying customers.

Nice.
Well played.

That reminds me....I have another letter to write.:)

[Pixel Shooter]

If you all spent the amount and time and energy and talk to people who actually have influence on making change, who knows, things might actually change. Arguing why, who's at fault and what is fair is beating a dead horse here as your not going to come to agreement, its ok to agree to disagree

[Big Daddy Badger]

How would I compete with British Columbia, NWT, Yukon, Manitoba, Ontario when booking hunters if I couldn't even promise my client a tag ? He would try once and if not succesful book in another province. The other provinces would be ecstatic if this was to happpen in Alberta.

And what percentage would the non-residents be allowed to apply on ? This seems to be everybodies solution but would they be applying on all tags available per zone with the residents ? Or would we allocate a .5% for the non-residents ? or is that still too much ?

Alberta outfitts would have no chance to make it on their own :(

Great.

So we should subsidise outfitters here because they might have to compete in a fair open maarket?

Seriously?

Look... people go for years waiting for a tag in BC to.
They can also hire a guide in their own province.
A lot of people now living in BC moved there for the hunting.
The hunting in Alberta is none the less typically easier and the game more plentiful in man y instances.
Success here for most thing is more likely.

Finally... how many guides in BC are praying for changes here?
I would imagine many of them resent having to compete with you right now.
i would imagine that when Alberta changed their regs regarding outfitters... they took a big hit.

Did you care?

Does this give you any ideas?

Do what everyone does... change the game so that residents can hire you etc and be prepared to move to the job rather than expect the job to come to you.

Thats how we ended up with half the maritimes living north of Edm.

[Rhino81]

:)

Good tactic... poke em with a stick.

Yup... thats the way to make friends.

Nice to know how you all really feel about folks who are giving something up so you can earn but aren't actually paying customers.

Nice.
Well played
That reminds me....I have another letter to write.:) don't waste your ink.

[Torkdiesel]

Great.

So we should subsidise outfitters here because they might have to compete in a fair open maarket?

Seriously?

Look... people go for years waiting for a tag in BC to.
They can also hire a guide in their own province.
A lot of people now living in BC moved there for the hunting.
The hunting in Alberta is none the less typically easier and the game more plentiful in man y instances.
Success here for most thing is more likely.

Finally... how many guides in BC are praying for changes here?
I would imagine many of them resent having to compete with you right now.
i would imagine that when Alberta changed their regs regarding outfitters... they took a big hit.

Did you care?

Does this give you any ideas?

Do what everyone does... change the game so that residents can hire you etc and be prepared to move to the job rather than expect the job to come to you.

Thats how we ended up with half the maritimes living north of Edm.

Nowhere in any comment I have made did I ask for any subsidy ??? I only ask that things are handled in a fair manor. This apparently is not a common opinion.

As for the rest of your comments you lost me ???

[Big Daddy Badger]

Nowhere in any comment I have made did I ask for any subsidy ??? I only ask that things are handled in a fair manor. This apparently is not a common opinion. As for the rest of your comments you lost me ???



Right here.

How would I compete with British Columbia, NWT, Yukon, Manitoba, Ontario when booking hunters if I couldn't even promise my client a tag ? He would try once and if not succesful book in another province. The other provinces would be ecstatic if this was to happpen in Alberta.

You are right by the way... the guys in BC would love it if Alberta guides were gettiing the same deal from the Alberta government that BC guides get from theirs.

I guess they must have an oddly well developed sense of fair play.

Tag allocations have a cash value and are guaranteed regardless of whether or not your competion has to compete for theirs.
That is... guides in BC and residents here.
Its not a check... but its a subsidy as much as any other.

The other comments were intended to draw your attention to the fact that right now BC guides face unfair competition from you and that you can always move to work if the pickings get too slim here.

[Torkdiesel]

Tag allocations have a cash value and are guaranteed rgardless of whether or not your competion has to compete for their.
That is... guides in BC and residents here.
Its not a check... but its a subsidy as much as any other.

The other comments were intended to draw your attention to the fact that right now BC guides face unfair competition from you and that you can always move to work if the pickings get too slim here.

I'm not getting into a debate over which is a better province to outfitt in. How do BC guides face unfair competition ? In my opinion there system is far superior to ours. But that is for another debate another day.

My opion is being fair is right, that's all.

As for moving on if the pickings get to slim here I am in the process of doing just that, but I don't feel all outfitters should be forced to do so.

Good night sir.

[Big Daddy Badger]

don't waste your ink.

Don't waste your breath

[Big Daddy Badger]

As for moving on if the pickings get to slim here I am in the process of doing just that, but I don't feel all outfitters should be forced to do so.

Good night sir.

Well why should liife be more fair to outfitters than anyone else?

The country is chalk full of people that have had to relocate to make a living because markets change... resources play out.

Its unfortunate yes but it isn't such a tragedy that we should all give up something that is our heritage so that we can prop em up.

If guys fail in that bussiness its because of the usual things.. poor management... too much competition.... a lack of resources.
I think you are right... many would fail and that supports my position that there are more than the industry can support...especuially if we want to maintain a viable population reasonably available to Albertans.

That can happen in any industry.

If we ran out of oil... oil field workers would move on or change their jobs.
We wouldn't ask Albertans to foot the bill to have oil imported and pumped into the ground for them to find would we?

[baptiste_moose]

This whole thread is IMHO is people with more money fighting with people with less. It all comes down to money! Lets be honest. I could never afford a guided hunt with travel unless it was a porcupine. There's just more important things in my life like my wife and kids. Nothing new that alberta is selling everything off to the highest bidder.


I have no problem with giving up a small percentage of tags, it makes very little difference to residents but a huge difference to the outfitters. It means being able to operate or not.

I could tell you were an outfitter from the start. Playing it up like it's for the kids and others to enjoy. Nice!!

[elkhunter11]

Well why should liife be more fair to outfitters than anyone else?

The country is chalk full of people that have had to relocate to make a living because markets change... resources play out.

Its unfortunate yes but it isn't such a tragedy that we should all give up something that is our heritage so that we can prop em up.

If guys fail in that bussiness its because of the usual things.. poor management... too much competition.... a lack of resources.
I think you are right... many would fail and that supports my position that there are more than the industry can support...especuially if we want to maintain a viable population reasonably available to Albertans.

That can happen in any industry.

If we ran out of oil... oil field workers would move on or change their jobs.
We wouldn't ask Albertans to foot the bill to have oil imported and pumped into the ground for them to find would we?

Well said!But some people just don't want to hear it.

They weren't complaining when it was resident tags that were reduced by up to 90% for some species, because it didn't effect them, however, now that SRD is telling them that they need to cut back to 10%, it does effect them, so they aren't happy.

[packhuntr]

I keep seeing guys claiming, tags cut back for the betterment of the resources etc etc. fellas, im here to tell ya, SRD has ran our antelope and mule
Deer into the ground, no one else. They are as we speak attempting to go nuclear on what remains of our muledeer in the eastern portion of the province. I wont bring particulars but suffice it to say, it includes winter baiting and killing everything four zones deep. All this is being supported by this provinces oh so precious AFGA. Matter of fact there are some within demanding that the culls are reinstated, does, earn a buck etc etc. guess who are the ONLY ones standing up for the resouce girlz? Its the outfitters.... Guess who is likely stepping up with the much needed money to do the air surveys when through govt cutbacks, there is no money for such things. Id mention just how much money they may be coverin with but its not for sure known by me right now. Some of you guys need to think about whats going on out here in the field and what had been going on. Between the AFGA and 95% of its menbership being stunned, and SRD, are they even worth the breath to mention,,, its a wreck, and once again no one wants to look at the problem, instead choosing to again not give credit where its ACTUALLy due. Some people here need to rethink thier membership with the afga and consider supporting smaller groups. It seems what some on here preach as gospel is nothin more than lies.

[waterhawk]

I keep seeing guys claiming, tags cut back for the betterment of the resources etc etc. fellas, im here to tell ya, SRD has ran our antelope and mule
Deer into the ground, no one else. They are as we speak attempting to go nuclear on what remains of our muledeer in the eastern portion of the province. I wont bring particulars but suffice it to say, it includes winter baiting and killing everything four zones deep. All this is being supported by this provinces oh so precious AFGA. Matter of fact there are some within demanding that the culls are reinstated, does, earn a buck etc etc. guess who are the ONLY ones standing up for the resouce girlz? Its the outfitters.... Guess who is likely stepping up with the much needed money to do the air surveys when through govt cutbacks, there is no money for such things. Id mention just how much money they may be coverin with but its not for sure known by me right now. Some of you guys need to think about whats going on out here in the field and what had been going on. Between the AFGA and 95% of its menbership being stunned, and SRD, are they even worth the breath to mention,,, its a wreck, and once again no one wants to look at the problem, instead choosing to again not give credit where its ACTUALLy due. Some people here need to rethink thier membership with the afga and consider supporting smaller groups. It seems what some on here preach as gospel is nothin more than lies.

I assume, from what you are saying, that the biologists working for the Alberta government have determined that the best course of action to deal with chronic wasting desease is to cull deer along Alberta's eastern border. I personally am prepared to accept that decision. I do not have any expertiese in wildlife deseases and am prepared to accept the biologists would not make this decision unless they had solid grounds for doing so. What information do you have that would lead to the conclussion that the biologists are wrong?

In, addition, as far as the outfitters are concerned, of course they will oppose any cull of the big game animals they are interested in. This is how they make money. Given that the outfitters have a financial interest in the cull not taking place, I am not prepared to give consideration to anything they may say on the issue.

[packhuntr]

Aw, aint that great, your fingers are in your ears and your shakin your head no no no lolol. Ok, so what of our piece of sh@t antelope herd?? Any guesses what they did wrong, or was that "lets kill the little bastards" that went on like it did for so long, due to them having cwd as well ? Lolol. Youd best think about what your saying and think long and hard about who you think may or may not be "for the resources" for today and going foreward. Need we mention all the other srd induced wrecks outfitters and residents are being left to "deal with". Need anyone mention all the good things apos has done and continues to do for us boys and our resources. Best rethink who your allies are fellas

[Don K]

I don't think the hunters of Alberta have a big problem with most of the actual outiftters themselves, the problem is with the percentage of opportunities/tags
they recieve.

I agree 100%
It's unfortunate that the outfitters are getting a disproportionate number of tags in some zones.
Alberta should follow the exams of other places having an individual draw a tag and then hire the outfitter. How hard is that? Then the number of tags given to NR's is in line with the number of tags given as a whole. Whatever percentage it happens to be it remain constant at that number and be fair for all those involved.
It sucks the outfitters would lose their 'allocations' but they could retain the rights to outfit in that zone...
It's the only fair way, with an expanding resident population, that would take into account a bad winter or another factor that makes game numbers fluctuate one way or another.

[Big Daddy Badger]

I keep seeing guys claiming, tags cut back for the betterment of the resources etc etc. fellas, im here to tell ya, SRD has ran our antelope and mule
Deer into the ground, no one else. They are as we speak attempting to go nuclear on what remains of our muledeer in the eastern portion of the province. I wont bring particulars but suffice it to say, it includes winter baiting and killing everything four zones deep. All this is being supported by this provinces oh so precious AFGA. Matter of fact there are some within demanding that the culls are reinstated, does, earn a buck etc etc. guess who are the ONLY ones standing up for the resouce girlz? Its the outfitters.... Guess who is likely stepping up with the much needed money to do the air surveys when through govt cutbacks, there is no money for such things. Id mention just how much money they may be coverin with but its not for sure known by me right now. Some of you guys need to think about whats going on out here in the field and what had been going on. Between the AFGA and 95% of its menbership being stunned, and SRD, are they even worth the breath to mention,,, its a wreck, and once again no one wants to look at the problem, instead choosing to again not give credit where its ACTUALLy due. Some people here need to rethink thier membership with the afga and consider supporting smaller groups. It seems what some on here preach as gospel is nothin more than lies.
The mismanagement of the resource is part and parcel with the subhject at hand.

The PC's put a price tag on everything and then started to turn a profit from it.

I see the mismanagement as the base problem and the Outfitter allocations and a self regulated industry complete with a union and lobbiests as being a symptom of that and change to that as fundimental to fixing the overall.
We could also go on about the difficulties that arise from having game farms in Alberta that earn the bulk of their capital by selling stock to hunt farms out of province.
That is another issue and another group of folks that are quite interested in turning our heritage into a cash business.

[waterhawk]

Aw, aint that great, your fingers are in your ears and your shakin your head no no no lolol. Ok, so what of our piece of sh@t antelope herd?? Any guesses what they did wrong, or was that "lets kill the little bastards" that went on like it did for so long, due to them having cwd as well ? Lolol. Youd best think about what your saying and think long and hard about who you think may or may not be "for the resources" for today and going foreward. Need we mention all the other srd induced wrecks outfitters and residents are being left to "deal with". Need anyone mention all the good things apos has done and continues to do for us boys and our resources. Best rethink who your allies are fellas

What good things has APOS done for us boys and our resources. I expect anything APOS has done is aimed at promoting outfitting businesses. I expect they could give a damn about resident hunters. I am sure if APOS could get away with it, resident hunting would be totally shut down so that guided Americans could have the best possible hunting.

[Torkdiesel]

This whole thread is IMHO is people with more money fighting with people with less. It all comes down to money! Lets be honest. I could never afford a guided hunt with travel unless it was a porcupine. There's just more important things in my life like my wife and kids. Nothing new that alberta is selling everything off to the highest bidder.




I could tell you were an outfitter from the start. Playing it up like it's for the kids and others to enjoy. Nice!!

I'm only going to say this once so please pay attention. For 10 years I ran my own outfitting business in Alberta. At one point I had 60 allocations for moose, deer, bear and Elk. Now I operate on a part time basis in Alberta because I am persuing other ventures around the world. I continue to operate here on a part time basis because I love hunting and I love seeing people be succesful and enjoying themselves. I'm not playing anything up for anybody.

The ones on here making comments about us being greedy and only caring about ourselves and money may have hit the nail on the head for the .5% of the bad apples. And there are bad apples on both sides. I've been called a criminal, a poacher, a thief, a liar and greedy more times then I can count on this forum because I'm an outfitter.

Every spring and fall I take out a handfull of bear hunters and moose hunters. I take time off work so I can go out and enjoy the outdoors while helping others enjoy what some of us take for granted. I make about 40% profit on those hunts I do. I'll use moose for an example because it is the more profitable venture so to speak. I charge $6000 for the hunt and there are 2 hunters at a time. My profit for that hunt is $4800 after expenses and I'm estimating on the high side. In that same week I could have sat at work and made $12,600 and not nearly worked half as hard. Believe me when I tell you it's not about the money. We do it because we love it.

So there it is in black and white. My greed for all to see.

Oh and when I said I do it for the kids and others to enjoy I was being honest. I had 3 days this moose season to hunt for myself. I took my neighbours 12 year old son out and let him use my Priority 7 moose tag to shoot his first big game animal. What a greedy B@#tard I am.

You could tell I was an outfitter from the start, well your dam right I am and I'm proud of it. My number one concern is keeping wildlife there for the next generations to enjoy. I just think we can share the opportunity fairly thats all.

[waterhawk]

I'm only going to say this once so please pay attention. For 10 years I ran my own outfitting business in Alberta. At one point I had 60 allocations for moose, deer, bear and Elk. Now I operate on a part time basis in Alberta because I am persuing other ventures around the world. I continue to operate here on a part time basis because I love hunting and I love seeing people be succesful and enjoying themselves. I'm not playing anything up for anybody.

The ones on here making comments about us being greedy and only caring about ourselves and money may have hit the nail on the head for the .5% of the bad apples. And there are bad apples on both sides. I've been called a criminal, a poacher, a thief, a liar and greedy more times then I can count on this forum because I'm an outfitter.

Every spring and fall I take out a handfull of bear hunters and moose hunters. I take time off work so I can go out and enjoy the outdoors while helping others enjoy what some of us take for granted. I make about 40% profit on those hunts I do. I'll use moose for an example because it is the more profitable venture so to speak. I charge $6000 for the hunt and there are 2 hunters at a time. My profit for that hunt is $4800 after expenses and I'm estimating on the high side. In that same week I could have sat at work and made $12,600 and not nearly worked half as hard. Believe me when I tell you it's not about the money. We do it because we love it.

So there it is in black and white. My greed for all to see.

Oh and when I said I do it for the kids and others to enjoy I was being honest. I had 3 days this moose season to hunt for myself. I took my neighbours 12 year old son out and let him use my Priority 7 moose tag to shoot his first big game animal. What a greedy B@#tard I am.

You could tell I was an outfitter from the start, well your dam right I am and I'm proud of it. My number one concern is keeping wildlife there for the next generations to enjoy. I just think we can share the opportunity fairly thats all.

Torkdiesel: I have no doubt that you are a fine man and a wildlife conservationalist. You state that you take a $7800 loss in wages ($12,600 -$4800) a week in order to operate to guide moose hunters. You say it is not about the money. If its not about the money, it is about being out in the bush partipating in a hunt. You have to realize that all moose hunters in Albera want to be out there to. We live here, work here, pay taxes and put up with the weather. Surely, you can see that is not fair that even a handful of Alberta residents should be denied a fall moose hunt because their oportunity to hunt has been taken by Americans so that you can have the enjoyment of guiding.

[Torkdiesel]

Waterhawk

Residents get 90% of every limited entry tag. Non-residents get 10%. Do residents really need 100%. As stated before I hope you never plan to hunt anywhere else in the world. Greed is a wicked disease.

[waterhawk]

Waterhawk

Residents get 90% of every limited entry tag. Non-residents get 10%. Do residents really need 100%. As stated before I hope you never plan to hunt anywhere else in the world. Greed is a wicked disease.

Look, I am not wanting to get into a big dispute about this. I would ask that you step back and look at how this thing looks. You are prepared to lose money to guide moose hunters. Clearly, the only reason for you to do that is so you can have the enjoyment of being out in the bush pursuing moose. I can't have that unless I draw a tag. I suggest that it is you that is being greedy because you are diminishing my chance of being drawn so you can use your outfitting licence to go out calling moose when I can't. You also can go out and hunt on any tag you can draw. So, you are double dipping at the expense of other Alberta residents.

[FCLightning]

Waterhawk

Residents get 90% of every limited entry tag. Non-residents get 10%.

Depends on which zone you live in. Therein lies the problem. Saying you get to hunt 90% of the animals but you have to leave home and hunt in remote wilderness to do so while non-residents are accessing prime hunting in your back door is no consolation - it is ludicrous.
Make the 10% WMU based and adjusted yearly with the tag numbers and I doubt the issue would have come up.

[baptiste_moose]

Tork. I was never questioning you as a man but you are biase based on your interests and line of work. I'm happy to hear there are outfitters like you out there. We could use a few more IMHO. I am saying however that I do not get to hunt sitka cause I do not live in BC. I do not get to fish for halibut cause I do not live near the ocean. The greed comes from people not being happy with what they have. Just cause they're wallet is a little thicker doesn't mean they have the right to take privileges from residents. Hunting is a very small portion of our lives. Last time I checked I spend 90 % of my time working and about 2 % of my life hunting. If you feel the greed to harvest those animals move there or play the cards your dealt and smile. Money can get you anything is this world and that will never change. But it's sad. Me me me.

[Torkdiesel]

Depends on which zone you live in. Therein lies the problem. Saying you get to hunt 90% of the animals but you have to leave home and hunt in remote wilderness to do so while non-residents are accessing prime hunting in your back door is no consolation - it is ludicrous.
Make the 10% WMU based and adjusted yearly with the tag numbers and I doubt the issue would have come up.

I can see no matter what I say the greedy residents will not be happy until they have it all to themselves. And by greedy residents I mean the ones that are in fact greedy. I find the Me Me Me attitude very disapointing. I only want a 10% slice of the pie while you have 90% and continue to fight for more. Maybe one day you'll get it.

Perhaps if you made it so people that moved into Alberta could not apply on these tags for the first 10 years they lived here it would create more opportunities for you. I wouldn't want to see you have to leave home to hunt just because the population is growing. Very sad.

[pikergolf]

I can see no matter what I say the greedy residents will not be happy until they have it all to themselves. And by greedy residents I mean the ones that are in fact greedy. I find the Me Me Me attitude very disapointing. I only want a 10% slice of the pie while you have 90% and continue to fight for more. Maybe one day you'll get it.

Perhaps if you made it so people that moved into Alberta could not apply on these tags for the first 10 years they lived here it would create more opportunities for you. I wouldn't want to see you have to leave home to hunt just because the population is growing. Very sad.

Actually Tork you personally get 100% of your piece of the pie. Your out there doing what you love at the expense of other Albertans, you need to take a step back and see what it looks like to those that can't draw a tag. And the greedy label is getting a little old, stand back a little and have a look at the whole picture. Your 10% should come out of Northern areas that don't have residents busting out the seams.

[Mickey]

I don't think that there should be any out of province tags allowed to be sold here until the residents have had their fill. Anything left after every Alberta resident has had their draw filled can be allotted to the outfitters. Why should I have to wait for years to get a draw tag for something and anyone from out of province can just come in and pay an outfitter and they get what they want.

We have a resource and it should be kept for the people that pay the taxes here and make the contributions year round.

If the outfitters argue that they cannot make a living because of the new system, I guess it is time to move to somewhere that they can or change careers.

[baptiste_moose]

No need to attack Tork personally. He put himself out there saying he's an outfitter for the sole purpose of educating us. It's been said a few times on this thread that the problem lies in apos and srd. Cut him some slack. I'm writing a letter as well as the 10 people I know that hunt. This will truely be the only way we're gonna see a change. Wasteing breath bashing each other about this topic. Tork is following rules put in place. He is doing nothing illegal. Just playing the cards he's been dealt.

[Torkdiesel]

No worries Baptiste

I have heard it all before, and with that I'll say that I tried to educate everybody from the other side of the fence and let them know we (most of the outfitters) don't want to see anybody go without. Just enjoy doing what we do and playing fairly.

Pickergolf and Mickey are prime examples of the majority feeling which is too bad. Hopefully if they get their way the rest of Canada, North America or the World doesn't fallow suit. That would truly be dissapointing to all those that enjoy hunting in different areas, myself included.

[waterhawk]

Torkdiesel: I am out of this. I think we have fairly exchanged our positions. I hope there are no hard feelings.

[Torkdiesel]

Torkdiesel: I am out of this. I think we have fairly exchanged our positions. I hope there are no hard feelings.

Of course not.

[honda450]

Oh and when I said I do it for the kids and others to enjoy I was being honest. I had 3 days this moose season to hunt for myself. I took my neighbours 12 year old son out and let him use my Priority 7 moose tag to shoot his first big game animal. What a greedy B@#tard I am.



Ain't that against the law or my interpatation?

[baptiste_moose]

Hunter host........partner license??? Or something like that. He seems a bit smarter then that on a public forum!

[Torkdiesel]

Ain't that against the law or my interpatation?

Baptiste is correct. Youth partner can be added for about 10 bucks to your draw tag as long as they have a W.I.N. card. Here is a picture of Justin the happy hunter.

On that note please bring a youth hunting folks, they aren't all as lucky as us.

[grinr]

No worries Baptiste

Pickergolf and Mickey are prime examples of the majority feeling which is too bad......
Dont be so sure that they speak for the majority(you left out waterhawk btw ;) ).....they certainly DO NOT speak for me.Their comments IMO are naiive and selfish at best.I myself and no doubt thousands of others have no problem with some(10%?) of tags going to NRs.....I'd just like to see the system changed to ensure that it doesnt skyrocket to 20,30,50% and more in some cases like it has with these 5yr deals....annual review of harvest quotas,residents get 90%/outfitters 10%.If SRD can adjust resident quotas annually,surely they can adjust allocations annually as well,pretty simple aint it?

[Mickey]

Pickergolf and Mickey are prime examples of the majority feeling which is too bad. Hopefully if they get their way the rest of Canada, North America or the World doesn't fallow suit. That would truly be dissapointing to all those that enjoy hunting in different areas, myself included.


Please explain to me why I should have to wait years for a tag, when a non resident can come in to my home province and pay an outfitter to shoot something I have to get in line for.

What if I am not wealthy, cannot afford to travel to hunt and have a life long dream to take an Alberta animal. Will your response be too bad, we are disregarding your wants and the money that you put into this province every day with your tax dollars so that someone from somewhere else can have the opportunity to come into the province and shoot what you want and can, solely because they dont live here and have lots of money.

How do you justify this?


I am not saying dont allow non residents in, just let the residents have their fill first.

[bear-scat]

Somebody should shoot this horse, its kicking , pretty much dead and going nowhere!!

[Torkdiesel]

Dont be so sure that they speak for the majority(you left out waterhawk btw ;) ).....they certainly DO NOT speak for me.Their comments IMO are naiive and selfish at best.I myself and no doubt thousands of others have no problem with some(10%?) of tags going to NRs.....I'd just like to see the system changed to ensure that it doesnt skyrocket to 20,30,50% and more in some cases like it has with these 5yr deals....annual review of harvest quotas,residents get 90%/outfitters 10%.If SRD can adjust resident quotas annually,surely they can adjust allocations annually as well,pretty simple aint it?

They can't adjust it annualy because the hunts would be booked before the review was over. Cancelling or bumping people would scare away all of the non-residents looking to book in Alberta. However every two years would work in 99% of the cases.

And please also remember that this 90/10 % system has always worked as far back as I know. It will be fixed, and we will continue on.

[Torkdiesel]

Please explain to me why I should have to wait years for a tag, when a non resident can come in to my home province and pay an outfitter to shoot something I have to get in line for.

What if I am not wealthy, cannot afford to travel to hunt and have a life long dream to take an Alberta animal. Will your response be too bad, we are disregarding your wants and the money that you put into this province every day with your tax dollars so that someone from somewhere else can have the opportunity to come into the province and shoot what you want and can, solely because they dont live here and have lots of money.

How do you justify this?


I am not saying dont allow non residents in, just let the residents have their fill first.

Then you would continue to apply for that tag like everybody else, and one day your life long dream would be realised.

And nobody said you couldn't be wealthy, that's a personal choice you have or have not made.

At what point would Albertan's have their fill ? When they all had killed one of each animal they wanted ? or would you never be happy with what you had ?

[Pixel Shooter]

Agree, beating a dead horse, http://www.pbase.com/keithrankin/image/68416022.jpg
want to continue, do it in PM


consider this thread locked http://www.pbase.com/keithrankin/image/68416040.jpg