Ice Fisherman Gets $5K Rescue Bill

[HunterDave]

An Ontario ice fisherman received a +$5K bill after calling 911 to come and rescue him when he became trapped in marsh mud. He was about 150 metres out on the ice when a heavy fog came in and he could barely see. As it got dark he attempted to get off the ice and back to his truck but he ended up in a marshy area (bullrushes) where he broke through the ice and got stuck in the mud. With no other options left he dialed 911. The ice fisherman is refusing to pay the bill.

What are your thoughts?

The fella is very well spoken and gave an excellent interview.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/video?playlistId=1.1145056

[BeeGuy]

outrageous

[Okotokian]

What is going on? I'm fine with people getting billed when they intentionally ignore warning signs, out-of-bounds signs, etc. But not for accidents, honest mishaps, etc.

Still, this is why I took the extra emergency response insurance when I subscribed to Spot. Apparently good for up to $250,000.

[BeeGuy]

Check out the bill.

Apparently 15 firefighters responded.

"Uh, you gonna pull'm out Steve?"
"I don't know, Didn't Dave say he'd do it"
"Naw, let the new guy get all muddy"
"Hey Joe! Here's a training opportunity for you..."
"I'm not certified to handle the public yet"
"Well, ok, Doug! You've got yer boots on already..."

and so on...

They are billing for 2 trucks?

Was the second truck there to pull out the first truck?

Really, 15 firemen?

The guy only has 2 arms to pull on...

[BeeGuy]

Wanna know how to get violated by 15 firemen?

Call 911 in an emergency...

[aulrich]

Good question, I just had to pay for an ambulance trip for when my son broke his leg. We **** and moan about folks thinking they are entitled and this falls on the line to where, is this a service that my taxes paied for or should the guy be on the hook for not being prepared and or watching the conditions.

[huntsfurfish]

Hmmm. Side slightly with guy that was billed. Was warnings couple days before, but the issue was the fog which was out of his control.
Bang. Case dismissed.

[Jayhad]

this guy needs to grow a set and accept responsibility for his actions

[Stewie]

Yeah I guess that’s the risk of driving your truck on the ice… how else was he going to get out…?

If your car breaks down on the highway and you need a tow truck yeah there is going to be a bill for that…

I don’t see a problem for this guy getting a bill… I also don’t think his life was in any danger as he claims it was… I have been stuck a few times in my day and I didn’t think my life was over…

[Ken07AOVette]

Wanna know how to get violated by 15 firemen?

Call 911 in an emergency...

Oh ha. Ha. Ha.

:rolleye2:

[tight line]

wanna know how to get violated by 15 firemen?

Call 911 in an emergency...

lol!!!

[Kokanee9]

I'm seeing this as 911 being turned into a revenue service instead of a rescue service.

Using the same logic in the clip, all roads, airports etc. should be shut down except on clear sunny days. Cars driving on an ice or snow covered highway shouldn't be there in case an accident happens.

[Kokanee9]

Stew - the guy walked on and was walking off the ice when he broke through not far from shore.

[ak-71]

I'm somewhat new to Canada, and have a question:
Can I haggle over how many firemen they should send when I have to call them?

[BeeGuy]

.

[Pincherguy]

I'm somewhat new to Canada, and have a question:
Can I haggle over how many firemen they should send when I have to call them?

Most certainly, just make sure to tell them you only want the best two. Willing to take three if the real good guy is busy. Also tell them to provide you with proficancy certificates. Opps! never mind it burnt to the ground now, thanks anyway.
PG

[BeeGuy]

looking at the bill, it appears they sent out 2 trucks and 15 men

Would this be a typical search and rescue party?



Just in case it ever comes to it, if I am ever lost in the bush or otherwise incapacitated in parts unknown, I am only good for a couple days at a $2500/hr rate.

After 3 days call off the search because I'm not coming back.

[ak-71]

Most certainly, just make sure to tell them you only want the best two. Willing to take three if the real good guy is busy. Also tell them to provide you with proficancy certificates. Opps! never mind it burnt to the ground now, thanks anyway.
PG

Still better than them sending every spare guy they have and their spotty dog to make an extra buck for the station...

[Ken07AOVette]

Love all the responses from people that haven't got a clue at all about volunteer firefighters.

We do it for free.
The county sends the bill, not us.
We don't decide which ones we want to go on, if we are available we go.
We even risk our own safety to help others, plus give freely thousands of hours of our time.

If you are involved, thank you, if you aren't but are fit and able, why not help out?

If you are just being an idiot, go pizz up a rope.

[ak-71]

Love all the responses from people that haven't got a clue at all about volunteer firefighters.

We do it for free.
The county sends the bill, not us.
We don't decide which ones we want to go on, if we are available we go.
We even risk our own safety to help others, plus give freely thousands of hours of our time.

If you are involved, thank you, if you aren't but are fit and able, why not help out?

If you are just being an idiot, go pizz up a rope.

Didn't want to offend you personaly or any firefighters. But if your time cost "customer" money it'd better be used right. You may give freely thousands of hours, but if people get billed thousands of dollars for it by whoever then going just because you are available just doesn't sound right to me

Here is another story: http://www.firefightingincanada.com/content/view/14490/213/

[HunterDave]

We do it for free.
The county sends the bill, not us.

Don't volunteers get paid a bit if they get called out?

I'm not saying that making extra money is why they do it, I'm just sayin'.

If the volunteers don't get paid why is the municipality charging for their services? I thought that they were trying to recoup their costs but if the volunteers aren't paid then they are generating revenue.

[Ken07AOVette]

Don't volunteers get paid a bit if they get called out?

I'm not saying that making extra money is why they do it, I'm just sayin'.

If the volunteers don't get paid why is the municipality charging for their services? I thought that they were trying to recoup their costs but if the volunteers aren't paid then they are generating revenue.

Not a penny. We get a new t shirt every couple years, if we want more we buy them ourselves.

The money goes to training, fire foam, trucks, insurance, fuel, consumables, bunker gear, hoses, rescue gear, it has never been about generating revenue.

[nightcrawler]

Any time I have had dealings with 911, I have been billed. My son choked on a toy, I was billed, I had an anaphalactic reaction and someone else called an ambulance for me, I was billed. We are always billed, if you dont have insurance, you pay the bill. Don't wanna pay? Get insurance.

[EDMfishing]

I didnt watch the Vid yet, but I'm sure the guy WOULDNT mind paying a bill if it was similar to ambulance (250-450$).. but 5k is not exactly a bill... thats his car payments for the year.... howmuch training, foam, gas and bunker supplys did they use to get him out of the mud???


AMA. told me the same(5k) to tow my car from canmore to edmonton once when it brokedown (apparently my membership was going to make it 400$ cheaper.... yipppppiiiieeee...)... I paid 3k for the car... so AMA got told where to go with that idea and the membership..... got it towed privately for about 400 bucks the next day...


If 9-1-1 told me it would cost 5k to send someone to get me out of the mud i think i would try to call all of my friends, nomatter how close or howlong its bee since i talked to them first... and then tell them 1k to whoever got me out... any of there friends or friends friends.... lol....


If no takers I think I'd call pizza 73, dominos, pizzahut even those 24hr pizza shops... and see if a delivery driver wanted to make some xtra $$$ hahaha

[nightcrawler]

[QUOTE=EDMfishing;1838

If 9-1-1 told me it would cost 5k to send someone to get me out of the mud i think i would try to call all of my friends, nomatter how close or howlong its bee since i talked to them first... and then tell them 1k to whoever got me out... any of there friends or friends friends.... lol....


If no takers I think I'd call pizza 73, dominos, pizzahut even those 24hr pizza shops... and see if a delivery driver wanted to make some xtra $$$ hahaha[/QUOTE]

Love it!

[falroy]

Volunteer firefighters in my area get paid when they are on a call

[CNP]

If you call for an ambulance, there is a set fee. If you call for a tow, there is a set fee. If you call 911 to get rescued there is NO set fee, their-in lies the fight. He didn't call for two trucks and 15 firefighters, but then again I don't know what the proper response should have been, because it is not known what he relayed to 911......when he ran out of options. Getting billed is fair, getting billed for services that do not add up to the task is something else.

[JFK]

Volunteer firefighters in my area get paid when they are on a call

Yep my area too!!:)

[the local angler]

kinda reminds me of that story on global news where this old western antique farm got burned down and loss a big section of this collection, they later got billed like $25,000 for it from the fire department to come out there. cant remember the exact figures.

[Ken07AOVette]

Any time I have had dealings with 911, I have been billed. My son choked on a toy, I was billed, I had an anaphalactic reaction and someone else called an ambulance for me, I was billed. We are always billed, if you dont have insurance, you pay the bill. Don't wanna pay? Get insurance.

Did he live?

Did you refuse the ambulance? You have that option.

What service on the planet is more worthwhile than preservation and extension of life!

[Ken07AOVette]

Still better than them sending every spare guy they have and their spotty dog to make an extra buck for the station...

:rolleye2:

Dogs are free, but we charge double when we take mascots :)

[BeeGuy]

10,000 posts big guy!

[HunterDave]

Volunteer firefighters in my area get paid when they are on a call

I'm pretty sure here in Morinville as well, plus extra money if they do go on a call.

+$5K to lay a ladder down or throw a guy a rope seems pretty steep to me.

[Jack&7]

Love all the responses from people that haven't got a clue at all about volunteer firefighters.

We do it for free.
The county sends the bill, not us.
We don't decide which ones we want to go on, if we are available we go.
We even risk our own safety to help others, plus give freely thousands of hours of our time.

If you are involved, thank you, if you aren't but are fit and able, why not help out?

If you are just being an idiot, go pizz up a rope.

I hear ya, Ken...ignorance and a 'puter keyboard make for a whole lotta armchair quarterbacks.

+$5K to lay a ladder down or throw a guy a rope seems pretty steep to me.

No offense Dave...but would you do it? Could you do it? Could you do it with the skills and the technical know-how to do it safely so that the victim is not only rescued...but the rescuers do not become victims themselves? Do you have the equipment? Are you available at a moment's notice when someone requires your services? Are you willing to put your life on the line if need be? Are you willing to put your personal life on hold at a moment's notice because somebody needs your help? Are you willing to tell your child that you have to leave dinner on the table because you gotta go...right f'n now? Are you aware of what a fully equipped fire truck actually costs to outfit? to operate? to maintain?

Would you rather have one of your friends come try to find you, stumble around in the dark and probably fall in as well...or would you rather have a team of organized, trained professional do a proper grid search and find you as quickly, efficiently and safelty as possible?

And I realize that we are talking about a guy stuck in the mud here so maybe this isn't the best example...but that isn't the point. Do you actually think it was as easy as "laying down a ladder or throwing a guy some rope"? Really?

Ask the guy what he thinks it's worth at that very moment when he fell through the ice, got stuck, realized he was alone, in the dark and nobody would know where he is. I am pretty sure he was damn glad somebody was there to help him...and he was probably pretty relieved that he knew he could count on the people who you hope you never need.

I am not saying whether charging for this whole rescue scenario was right or wrong...I am just surprised how little people actually know about what is involved or what happens when you call 911. And please...I am not trying to start a pizzing match. I just thought I would throw some info/questions out there to make any of you stop and think for a minute before any more 'educated' opinions about the fire service are thrown out there.

TRUST ME...nobody ever joins the fire service to get rich!

[BeeGuy]

I dont think anyone is really hating firemen or emt's.

Of course they provide a needed service, and are certainly appreciated.

The issue is wrt billing.

$5000 to show and pull a guy out of the mud.

It is excessive.

At those rates, people are going to stop calling 9-1-1.

After that we will be looking at privatizing emergency services.

I suspect we are well under way.

[Ken07AOVette]

10,000 posts big guy!

:sHa_shakeshout:

[waterninja]

sort of makes you wonder if you call 911 for an emegency or crime in progress that you'll be billed if they don't save or arrest someone. after all, you have just wasted their time.
sad to think that in the near future people will be afraid to call 911 because they can't afford it.

[BeeGuy]

sort of makes you wonder if you call 911 for an emegency or crime in progress that you'll be billed if they don't save or arrest someone. after all, you have just wasted their time.
sad to think that in the near future people will be afraid to call 911 because they can't afford it.

I have only called 9-1-1 once in recent history.

We were following a rig hauling Canfor lumber north up the Columbia Valley and he was losing his load. So. Sketchy. Almost flipped his trailer a couple times going through Fairmont.

The dispatcher asked who we wanted to talk to which surprised me. Police? Fire? etc..

So, calling 9-1-1 does not mean you will be billed. It all depends on who shows up and if you are insured for the nature of the call.

It also depends on the funding structure of the specific association that shows up.

I doubt police will be billing you.

Ambulance, fire, that may be another story.

If you are 'older' and spend a lot of time in moderately remote areas, it may be wise to consider obtaining some kind of 'recovery' insurance and region appropriate communication device.

For a trip to Central Asia we looked into evac insurance which would basically pick you up anywhere in the event of an emergency.

Prob could have used it to get to some good porcelain a couple times.

[rcales]

I think it's on the fisherman to be responsible for himself. i'm sure the fog didn't role in that fast that he couldn't walk 200 feet back to shore. Don't think 15 rescuers were necessary, but that should be on the 911 dispatcher for not assessing the situation properly.
Split the difference and move on with life

[SCHOOCH]

I think it's on the fisherman to be responsible for himself. i'm sure the fog didn't role in that fast that he couldn't walk 200 feet back to shore. Don't think 15 rescuers were necessary, but that should be on the 911 dispatcher for not assessing the situation properly.
Split the difference and move on with life

X2..........i was "rescued" off the ice years ago on Lake Simcoe when the entire section i was fishing on broke free from shore, of course i had no clue for the 1st hr except the bottom of the lake kept changing structure....ice fish trolling!!!! I never received a bill for that nor did the other 150 guys on the ice that day and the response was huge!!!!!!!!! I would have been ok though if i did have to pay something but i agree to at least pay 1/2 not 5 Grand!!!!:scared0018:

[lifesagarden]

It would seem everyone is of the opinion that 2 trucks is excessive. Pretty sure trucks are dispatched based on set protocol as a result of past experiences and information given at the time... that being said how would the headlines look if it said “fire and rescue workers lost as a result of second rescue vehicle not being dispatched.” Just think about it next time you see a buddy stuck in a barely afloat truck and they only send one truck out to rescue him. And if he thinks 5k is expensive, wait till the environmentalists show up and say "oh look there is some differential oil leaking in the water and that a protected wet lands area!"
It expensive to not have a plan and even more expensive when you want everything for free.

[BeeGuy]

For those that didn't watch the clip:

He was parked on shore.

[BeeGuy]

fast forward to 3:31 and look for the shadow....

The chief says very clearly that the rates they bill are just made up.

[BeeGuy]

The gentleman states that he is the first to be billed in such a manner by that municipality and that it is a precedent setting case.

good for him.

that chief is one weasel-y bugger

[huntsfurfish]

What if it was someone else that made the call. That is not uncommon. Who gets billed?:)

[EDMfishing]

The Chief says who gets billed, and how much they get charged is up to the municipality... The municipality sets they're own rates, and decides when to charge someone :snapoutofit:


My friends mom called an ambulance at a car accident that she witnessed once.... It was a bad accident luckily everyone lived to tell their storys.... She recieved a 360$ 911/ambulance fee on her mobile bill the next month.. after a bunch of phone calls and alot of moaning and groaning they said 'oh our apologies that was a billing mistake'.. before all the moaning and groaning they told her 'you called the ambulance you have to pay for it' she was quite un happy to say the least until they finally told her she didnt have to pay for someone elses ambulance..... (i think there was 3 ambulances in total along with fire and police that showed up...jaws of life and the ambulances were all used / needed)

[HunterDave]

What if it was someone else that made the call. That is not uncommon. Who gets billed?:)

Good question and I had thought about that myself. It happened here in Morinville a few years ago where the ice was melted around the shore and a fella accessed the ice to do a bit of fishing. Someone figured that he was stranded out there and called 911. When the volunteer fire department showed up to rescue him he simply walked to shore to talk to them. Better safe than sorry but I wonder who flipped the bill?

[HunterDave]

No offense Dave...but would you do it? Could you do it? Could you do it with the skills and the technical know-how to do it safely so that the victim is not only rescued...but the rescuers do not become victims themselves? Do you have the equipment? Are you available at a moment's notice when someone requires your services? Are you willing to put your life on the line if need be? Are you willing to put your personal life on hold at a moment's notice because somebody needs your help? Are you willing to tell your child that you have to leave dinner on the table because you gotta go...right f'n now? Are you aware of what a fully equipped fire truck actually costs to outfit? to operate? to maintain?

Would you rather have one of your friends come try to find you, stumble around in the dark and probably fall in as well...or would you rather have a team of organized, trained professional do a proper grid search and find you as quickly, efficiently and safelty as possible?

And I realize that we are talking about a guy stuck in the mud here so maybe this isn't the best example...but that isn't the point. Do you actually think it was as easy as "laying down a ladder or throwing a guy some rope"? Really?

First of all I have the utmost respect for ALL emergency services personnel, particularly people that give up their free time to do it voluntarily, and it's not about them, it's about the billing for their services. I don't want to get into a bunch of hypothetical situations about different scenarios, I am only commenting on this particular incident wrt the +$5K billing. Given the situation, I think that amount is ridiculous!

Considering that I spent 27 years on call 24/7 365 days a year ready to put my life on the line....... The difference being is that when I went out the door my family didn't know if I'd be gone for a day or a month or longer.

I realize that it's easy to second guess after the fact and that things are happening in realtime for the rescue personnel however, in this particular situation the fella needing rescue had a phone, was conscious and stuck in the mud in the bullrushes on the edge of a lake. Pretty easy to assess the situation IMO. There was absolutely no requirement for the entire firehall to be called out complete with two pumper trucks and 3 Captains. For what?

The point is, the bill is overkill and it has nothing to do with the work that emergency personnel do. I agree with the fella when he says that people that find themselves in a similar situation will not call 911 if it means that they'll get a +$5K bill. I know that I certainly won't, I'll call a towtruck first.

[Jack&7]

HunterDave...

I just wanted to be clear that I am not arguing with you...I was just highlighting the fact (that seems all too common these days) that people hear a small poprtion of the story and then come to a conclusion based on assumptions.

Granted, I am a little sensitive to the fact considering that firefighting is my profession and it never ceases to amaze me how people are all too willing to second guess what we do but really know nothing about what is involved.

I just replied to your post since you 'asked' some of those same questions...

[HunterDave]

Fair enough. :)

[kylecott]

i am a retired rescue worker. i am certified in autmmotive extrication, ground search and rescue, organized avalanche response and was a member of the rope rescue team. i was a volunteer. i gave my time because i enjoyed helping others while they were in need. in the many years i did it, i responded to hundreds of calls. not once do i recall ever having someone have to foot the bill for the rescue. i disagree with that practice, however if its a repeat victim, or clear neglegence then i believe something should be done. that being said, leave it to the police and crown council to decide the fines instead of just making up a bill. perhaps a 'fair punishment' for needing help may be volunteer hours, come to a rescue practice. see first hand the training that is involved in becoming and maintianing a rescuer status. this is just my opinion.....