More on ethics of extreme LR Hunting

[Chukar Hunter]

Folks;

I posted an article from (Don Pedrotti) the B&C website a while back. I am appending two more;

One frm Dr. Van Zwoll from Summer 2010 issue of Fair Chase & a very recent
One from my dear friend Dr. Val Geist

I have a feeling that the B&C club will touch on this issue again in the very near future.

I love to shoot extreme long range, but I think it is unjustified and irresponsible to do it at critters, regardless of the end result. Read them without bias and you may actually come away with something! I know many individuals will disagree with the content, but that is what democracy is all about, isn't it?

Yours in good hunting,

CH

[Ryry4]

In my opinion range is a personal thing. Some may not feel comfortable shooting past 200 yards, some are comfortable out to 1000 +. If it results in a dead animal that's all that matters in my mind.

[Okotokian]

sigh... Would be nice if the discussion could be calm.... but....

IBTL

[pikergolf]

Both are excellent essays in my opinion.

[ASAT1]

In my opinion range is a personal thing. Some may not feel comfortable shooting past 200 yards, some are comfortable out to 1000 +. If it results in a dead animal that's all that matters in my mind.

X2

[petew]

A fellow explained to me , you need to shoot 900 yards to get an elk, one day as I was shooting a Flint lock.
Realy I said, and how do you think Bow Hunters do this?
The look was priceless.

[WhiteFalcon]

In my opinion range is a personal thing. Some may not feel comfortable shooting past 200 yards, some are comfortable out to 1000 +. If it results in a dead animal that's all that matters in my mind.

Agree do what you feel comforable doing. Dead animal with one shot (or so).....not pumping a whole mag into it or wounding it.

[HuntingAlberta]

While I agree on ethics, I know more than a few hunters that site in their rifles on deer at 200 yards because they hunt one day a year and pull the rifle out for going and getting some meat for the freezer. I have seen many deer and elk wounded by these people. I have also seen many deer wounded from "pushing bush" which I would think is more unethical than some long range shooting.

My brother and I have a 1,000 yard range built on Private land meters from the back porch of his house. We shoot thousands of rounds of ammunition through our rifles every year, all year. I feel much more confident in myself successfully "One-Shot" killing an animal on every shot than on many hunters killing something at 200 yards. We have 10 inch gongs set out to 800 yards that we shoot consistently while reading wind for eachother.

My point being, Range is what you are comfortable with. Practice is what is important and when it comes to the ethics of hunting, you are the one pulling the trigger. It is up to you to decide if you can safely and humanely kill an animal before you take the shot. Every person has to be responsible for themselves.

[HuntingAlberta]

Saying that, after all the long range practice I have done for years I shot my Whitetail at 36 feet, Black bear at 150 yards, Grizzly in Alaska at 250 yards and cougar at 42 yards this year on the ground and elk under 30 yards with my bow.

Being a successful long range shooter allows you to have the confidence in the field to shoot things that are both far or close. It just makes the close shots that much easier and ethical.

If you are not comfortable doing it than don't. But get out there and practice anyways as it will make you a better shot for all situations.

[catnthehat]

All well and good to talk about hunting versus long range shooting , but I have asked this question before and got no answer.
HOW FAR??!!:confused:
Who is to decide a mandatory distance that constitutes anything further as "long range"?:)
I have the utmost respect for Dr. Val Geist, but I don't think even he will put a number to that.
One must realize that not all hunters are as proficient as others, so 200 yards for some can be 300 yards or 400 yards for others, depending on their expertise.
Cat

[Bushrat]

All well and good to talk about hunting versus long range shooting , but I have asked this question before and got no answer.
HOW FAR??!!:confused:
Who is to decide a mandatory distance that constitutes anything further as "long range"?:)
I have the utmost respect for Dr. Val Geist, but I don't think even he will put a number to that.
One must realize that not all hunters are as proficient as others, so 200 yards for some can be 300 yards or 400 yards for others, depending on their expertise.
Cat

Exactly, I shoot thousands of rounds of centerfire a year, I know my limitations and for me thats about 200 yds with a good rest when it comes to shooting at live critters! I can shoot targets much farther but they don't give me buck fever!:)

[catnthehat]

Exactly, I shoot thousands of rounds of centerfire a year, I know my limitations and for me thats about 200 yds with a good rest when it comes to shooting at live critters! I can shoot targets much farther but they don't give me buck fever!:)

I'm not about to take a poke at a deer 300 yards away with my irons either ,in fact let a very large mule deer go a few years back because the front sight cover over half of the body cavity at 337 yards on my range finder!:sign0161:
Cat

[Chukar Hunter]

One thing to consider here is:

Articles as such is targeted more towards the inexperienced shooter who does not have a clue about his rifle's ballistics, wind drift and hardly practices more than a handfull of times a year.

The content is to "warn" the guy behind the trigger to know his/her limitations and also that of the rifle.

Dr. Van Zwoll himslef has taken a 608 yard shot on Elk which is on youtube, but that was under ideal conditions with total exposure, not letting a closer approach.

What these gentlemen are writing about is to stop "Glorifying" this type of hunting, thats it.

I was talking to my gun smith last week wand he told me he had three big boys come to town from the rigs with a pile of money in their pocket and their 300 WBY's. They told my smithy they will pay what ever it takes to have him "fine Tune" these rifles so that they can shoot deer at 1000 yards. After my smithy asked him if they use hand loads, they all had no clue and he then basically asked them to go elsewhere. This is the type of crowd that is the audience. Not the hard core shooter who breathes hand loads and shoots year round.

Folks that claim can shoot 1000 yards at game should attend a day shoot at Full bore to have their eyes opened up as far as wind drift.

Its all good warnings; for the betterment of the hunters, our image in public eyes and the game itself.

God bless,

CH

[Grizzly Adams]

All well and good to talk about hunting versus long range shooting , but I have asked this question before and got no answer.
HOW FAR??!!:confused:
Who is to decide a mandatory distance that constitutes anything further as "long range"?:)
I have the utmost respect for Dr. Val Geist, but I don't think even he will put a number to that.
One must realize that not all hunters are as proficient as others, so 200 yards for some can be 300 yards or 400 yards for others, depending on their expertise.
Cat


To put that concisely, when does Hunting become sniping? :D I've always believed there's much more to it than just making a killing shot.


Grizz

[catnthehat]

To put that concisely, when does Hunting become sniping? :D I've always believed there's much more to it than just making a killing shot.


Grizz

I have absolutely no idea when hunting becomes sniping, nor do I know at what distance is too far for the average person to shot and under what conditions.
I do know that when I shoot my long range match rifles, about the only thing that is the same is stuff like sight picture and trigger pull when I compare them to my iron sighted hunting rifles.
However, if I use a few of my hunting rifles with scopes on them, conditions change.
Cat

[Big Daddy Badger]

Agree do what you feel comforable doing. Dead animal with one shot (or so).....not pumping a whole mag into it or wounding it.

Anything less than a one shot one kill is a failure by the markesman.

Yes... it happens to everyone but the guy that has the discipline and ethics and humility to recognise his own failings will do his level best to prevent that.

I'd question the ethics of anyone who takes a shot knowing and even expecting that there is a good chance a followup will be required.
I also question the liklihood that a many guys who take lob rounds in will climb down a hill... cross a river... climb the opposite slope... and spend the rest of their morning confirming that they did indeed miss... if they can even find the spot where the damn thing was standing.

Long range shooting is for targets and for snipers.
Hunters should refrain from taking shots just because they can.

In my experience most (not all) long range "hunters" exercise as much patience trying to locate wounded animals as they use when trying to find something to shoot at.
They shoot at anything they can see within the range of their weapon and if they miss or they appear to have missed... they lose interest very quickly and move on.
They also tend to be the same guys that assume their performance at the bench on level ground will be the same in the field regardless of angle, position and weather.

Hunting is more than marksmanship and capable marksmen who lack the other required disiplines make poor hunters.
I shy away from hunting with guys that brag about shots over practical shooting distances.
Its saved me a lot of ruined days.

[mcreg]

Chukar Hunter's comments pretty much sum it up for me! It is the "audience" that thinks they can shoot long range that is the worry some point.
Don't get me wrong< I love to shoot long range but at targets only! I even went to a long range shootong school and that is where my opinion turned 180 degrees. Certainly there were serious shooters that attended but the vast majority were individuals who had the money to spend but not the time to devote to the quest. Many thought all they had to do was buy the goods, come to the course and "vwalla" instant long range experts. Upon speaking to many individuals, there were way too many that just wanted to get that "wall-hanger" and this would get it for them! Not the right motive in my mind BUT REALITY??
But as been said before- its persoanl choice! However, IMHO getting up close and personal is a lot more sporting than shooting at something you can hardly see!



I was so disillussioned I sold my gear.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Chukar Hunter's comments pretty much sum it up for me! It is the "audience" that thinks they can shoot long range that is the worry some point.
Don't get me wrong< I love to shoot long range but at targets only! I even went to a long range shootong school and that is where my opinion turned 180 degrees. Certainly there were serious shooters that attended but the vast majority were individuals who had the money to spend but not the time to devote to the quest. Many thought all they had to do was buy the goods, come to the course and "vwalla" instant long range experts. Upon speaking to many individuals, there were way too many that just wanted to get that "wall-hanger" and this would get it for them! Not the right motive in my mind BUT REALITY??
But as been said before- its persoanl choice! However, IMHO getting up close and personal is a lot more sporting than shooting at something you can hardly see!



I was so disillussioned I sold my gear.

Tasted the kool-aide and spit it out eh?

Good for you.

Hopefully some others will take your first hand experience and apply it to their thinking.

[Speckle55]

wow i just had a Guy shoot a Deer at 150 yards and had to track it down this year he is a Marksman:fighting0021: this year .. i have missed Deer at 75 yards .. and hit deer at 100 yards and should of been a kill shot and was but it went 2 miles .. i tracked it down 2 miles and got my finishing shot as it stood there wavering.. i have got called out by less experinced hunters and had to track down animals .. my boy shot a Doe this year with 2 hits and no blood it ran in bush and turned up hill right away but we went in straight ahead and looked to left i went right in end and was tracking one up hill when i spotted her as she had done a j hook and come down abit when i got to her i saw that she started bleeding about 40 yds up the hill.. if you can,t take the fact that you may not have a perfect kill shot and even if you do there is no gaurentee then please don,t hunt .. i like how all you guys say that you are the best shot etc and then you will rip a carrot out of the ground cut its head off and then cut its legs off then put in a juicer and squish its guts out and drink it and you think that you are the best thing in the world..

my rant is done but i hope you get the point in the Circle of Life nothing is wasted and even god said to havest

ps more birds are killed by running into windows than hunting by far

and in Alberta 13500 deer were killed by cars in Alberta in 2008 and 16300 ungulates cost insurance 250 million that year

I hunted for meat and i Long Range Hunt and my Rifle's effective is 1100 meters

Rob Furlong took 3 shots for his Sniper Long Range Recorded Shot

Food for Thought

David:)

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Rob+Furlong+longest+shot+on+u+tube&docid=4765769587949725&mid=AC544B74AE52A5EAE073AC544B74AE52A5EAE073&view=detail&FORM=VIRE1






Anything less than a one shot one kill is a failure by the markesman.
Yes... it happens to everyone but the guy that has the discipline and ethics and humility to recognise his own failings will do his level best to prevent that.

I'd question the ethics of anyone who takes a shot knowing and even expecting that there is a good chance a followup will be required.
I also question the liklihood that a many guys who take lob rounds in will climb down a hill... cross a river... climb the opposite slope... and spend the rest of their morning confirming that they did indeed miss... if they can even find the spot where the damn thing was standing.

Long range shooting is for targets and for snipers.
Hunters should refrain from taking shots just because they can.

In my experience most (not all) long range "hunters" exercise as much patience trying to locate wounded animals as they use when trying to find something to shoot at.
They shoot at anything they can see within the range of their weapon and if they miss or they appear to have missed... they lose interest very quickly and move on.
They also tend to be the same guys that assume their performance at the bench on level ground will be the same in the field regardless of angle, position and weather.

Hunting is more than marksmanship and capable marksmen who lack the other required disiplines make poor hunters.
I shy away from hunting with guys that brag about shots over practical shooting distances.
Its saved me a lot of ruined days.

[catnthehat]

Chukar Hunter's comments pretty much sum it up for me! It is the "audience" that thinks they can shoot long range that is the worry some point.
Don't get me wrong< I love to shoot long range but at targets only! I even went to a long range shootong school and that is where my opinion turned 180 degrees. Certainly there were serious shooters that attended but the vast majority were individuals who had the money to spend but not the time to devote to the quest. Many thought all they had to do was buy the goods, come to the course and "vwalla" instant long range experts. Upon speaking to many individuals, there were way too many that just wanted to get that "wall-hanger" and this would get it for them! Not the right motive in my mind BUT REALITY??
But as been said before- its persoanl choice! However, IMHO getting up close and personal is a lot more sporting than shooting at something you can hardly see!



I was so disillussioned I sold my gear.

I've been trying to tell people that for years, but the conversation normally goes sideways and i get shut down because they have the equipment and they have shot at steel at some extended range and actually hit the target a few times.
Cat

[gopher]

Anything less than a one shot one kill is a failure by the markesman.

You have little experience
I deleted the rest of the post because it was just diarrhea.

[Bigmountainrider]

Maybe we just need to start shifting the opinion or weight, the type of harvest holds. Like I think my bow kill of a 5X5 bull Elk at 27yds has way more weight or something to be proud about, than my 190" white tail at 613yds with the bang stick. Using the gun has lost its charm. There is so much more to go wrong when close range hunting, thats what makes it so exciting. Ethics: Those who know they can make the shot ethically, should take it. Those who don't consider Ethical shooting, should not. Often those are the people who are too ignorant to know better.

[Fisherpeak]

You have little experience
I deleted the rest of the post because it was just diarrhea.

I`m with you Gopher.
Anyone who says " anything less than a one shot kill is failure" obviously doen`t hunt much.Next he`ll be telling us that anything other than a head shot is failure.

[Dog hunter]

Originally Posted by gopher
You have little experience
I deleted the rest of the post because it was just diarrhea.
I`m with you Gopher.
Anyone who says " anything less than a one shot kill is failure" obviously doen`t hunt much.Next he`ll be telling us that anything other than a head shot is failure.

I have hunted for 30 years and never shot an animal twice and never lost one.practice and discipline know you're limits.Back on topic if you can make the shot comfortably take it if you miss don't ever try it again,discipline .

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by gopher
You have little experience
I deleted the rest of the post because it was just diarrhea.
I`m with you Gopher.
Anyone who says " anything less than a one shot kill is failure" obviously doen`t hunt much.Next he`ll be telling us that anything other than a head shot is failure.

I have hunted for 30 years and never shot an animal twice and never lost one.practice and discipline know you're limits.Back on topic if you can make the shot comfortably take it if you miss don't ever try it again,discipline .


hey Dog Hunter you ever have a Coyote get away or you one shot all of them and what about wolves you hunt them too and what about geese you one shot them too and you must hunt gophers you one shot them too???

Just asking?

David:)

[addictedfisherman]

hey Dog Hunter you ever have a Coyote get away or you one shot all of them and what about wolves you hunt them too and what about geese you one shot them too and you must hunt gophers you one shot them too???

Just asking?

David:)

Im sure he was talking about big game, but this is kinda funny lol

[Dog hunter]

Actually all my coyotes have been 1 shot even finished a few for my partners 2 wolves one shot each, I don't hunt geese only shot one gopher when I was ten one shot with my neighbours 250 and I hunt chickens with my bow,I practice a lot and if a gun won't group I either fix it or junk it

[Vingiu]

Actually all my coyotes have been 1 shot even finished a few for my partners 2 wolves one shot each, I don't hunt geese only shot one gopher when I was ten one shot with my neighbours 250 and I hunt chickens with my bow,I practice a lot and if a gun won't group I either fix it or junk it
Compounded with what you said earlier, those are some pretty hefty claims... I'm new to hunting compared to you, but I'll tell you right now you're either extremely lucky (I say lucky because obviously no one is absolutely perfect) or you're exaggerating. I tend to be an optimist, so I guess I'll take your word for it... But still: those are hefty claims, my friend.

How many head of game have you taken, if you had to ballpark a number? Just curious :)

[Ice Fishing Maniac]

sigh... Would be nice if the discussion could be calm.... but....

IBTL

:party0052::shake::argue2::grouphugg::happy0180:

I'm not a fan of the extreme long range stuff you see on TV, but if you practice at the range enough and know the ballistics of your caliber and have a caliber with enough energy to make a clean kill, then so be it.

I can say I have pushed the envelope a couple of times BUT I knew my rifle and my capabilities from practice. Furtherst for me was 554m broadside double lung on my 8x7 whitetail back in 2004 and a bull moose at 450m back around 2003-2005....cant remember...both dropped in there tracks. To me, alot of the hunting is practicing your skills at calling your game in close or stalking to close the distance.

To each their own!!

[nekred]

Hunting becomes siniping when the target can and will shoot back...

the only reason to shoot farther than your quarry is if the quarry can shoot back!....

There is no second place in a sniper vs. sniper contest.

[pikergolf]

I agree with Pesky, his entire post. The whole idea of hunting is to kill an animal quickly with little meat loss, anything beyond that has to be considered a failure. I'm very surprised that anyone would get offended at his statement. Failures happen all the time and we build on them, but in the end if it's not a clean one shot kill it can be improved upon. Maybe that's why all this long range pot shooting goes on, because we don't see a miss or wounded animal as a failure. Sadly a lot of young men get into hunting with nothing but TV shows and youtube to guide them. Thank you Pesky for calling it as you see it.

[Dog hunter]

Leonardo,ballpark 25 whitetail,8 moose,50 coyote,2 wolf you're right no one is perfect I have watched a lot of game run away or disappear into the bush I try not to rush a shot and don't take running shots or long shots without a good rest,it's just the way I was taught ,my dad used to guide I hate chasing wounded game or to see an animal suffer and couldn't agree more with the ice fishing maniac if a critter is running away I've already lost if I don't have time to aim breath and squeeze I lost shot a Yote running away at 250 a couple years ago back of the head,was bragging to my dad,he said "what are doing shooting game when it's running away".

[nof60]

Anything less than a one shot one kill is a failure by the markesman.True, but nothing wrong with paying the insurance

Yes... it happens to everyoneexcept the doghunter guy but the guy that has the discipline and ethics and humility to recognise his own failings will do his level best to prevent that.

I'd question the ethics of anyone who takes a shot knowing and even expecting that there is a good chance a followup will be required.There is always a good chance a followup will be required. Hence the use of repeating rifles
I also question the liklihood that a many guys who take lob rounds in will climb down a hill... cross a river... climb the opposite slope... and spend the rest of their morning confirming that they did indeed miss... if they can even find the spot where the damn thing was standing.Wow. All long range shooters are also lazy

Long range shooting is for targets and for snipers.Says you
Hunters should refrain from taking shots just because they can.Why?

In my experience most (not all) long range "hunters" exercise as much patience trying to locate wounded animals as they use when trying to find something to shoot at.Have you had a lot of experience hunting with long range shooters? If you are so against it why did you hunt with them? Are you a hypocrite or do you just talk out of your a#$?
They shoot at anything they can see within the range of their weapon and if they miss or they appear to have missed... they lose interest very quickly and move on.Again, what are you basing this on?
They also tend to be the same guys that assume their performance at the bench on level ground will be the same in the field regardless of angle, position and weather.My "bench" is baloons in the backcountry at 6-7-800 meters. How often do you stump shoot at less than 250 yards? Or does your time at the bench mimic all the variable at less than 250? here let me try a nice broad statement like you7 made. All non long range shooters do not shoot enough to be proficient and therefore should not hunt.

Hunting is more than marksmanship and capable marksmen who lack the other required disiplines make poor hunters.And go home empty handed
I shy away from hunting with guys that brag about shots over practical shooting distances.Truly their loss I am sure. It is hard to concentrate on a long shot with all the preaching that would be happening. Plus who would carry the soapbox?
Its saved me a lot of ruined days.

.

[savagewsm]

What saddens me is not so much how animals are taken but why animals are taken. Long or short range is not the issue ( for me anyway )


In the past people hunted to hunt and to provide food and also to take pride in a large trophy as well. Today it seem to be about how the animal was taken.

Did you use the latest gear
Was it taken at 500 yards
Are you following the latest trend
and so on

In the past we really did not talk about the rifle but more about the accuracy of the shooter. If you missed it was never the guns fault. Although we all would blame it. LOL

Perhaps I'm straying from the point of this thread but much of hunting has become more about the latest trend. Too many hunting show wannabees. If you can hit a soup can at 700 yards great if you can hit one at 70 yards great. Just enjoy and take pride in our heritage of hunting.

[nof60]

I have hunted for 30 years and never shot an animal twice and never lost one.practice and discipline know you're limits.Back on topic if you can make the shot comfortably take it if you miss don't ever try it again,discipline .

Actually all my coyotes have been 1 shot even finished a few for my partners 2 wolves one shot each, I don't hunt geese only shot one gopher when I was ten one shot with my neighbours 250 and I hunt chickens with my bow,I practice a lot and if a gun won't group I either fix it or junk it




Wow, you must really think we all fell off the turnip truck yesterday.

[TomCanuck]

I've said before, if you're shooting at critters, at the better part of a klick, those critters ought to be foriegn nationals, and you oughta be getting paid to do it.

I think at a certian point it stops being hunting and becomes shooting, or even plinking, if the skill to make the shot is not there. Yes there are those who can make those shots, but might doesn't make right. Just because you are capable of doing something doesn't mean you should actually do it.

As for making the first shot count, I know if I don't, then I feel like crap. I've learned that from experience, so when I shoot now, it's a pretty sure thing.

That's my view, and all I have to say on the matter.

[ex811]

Accurate Long Range Shooting is a skill acquired through allot of trigger time, bench time, ballistic knowledge, weapons knowledge and basically allot of time and dedication. Kinda like those guys using bows, blackpower, single shot rifles etc...an acquired skill.

If I can consistently hit Very Small targets out to my definition of extreme ranges and am confident in my abilities...And since I consider myself an ethical and knowledgeable hunter, then I will take those shots.

Like all ethical hunters I will not sacrifice an animal simply to target practice.

Just my opinion.

[Bigmountainrider]

Accurate Long Range Shooting is a skill acquired through allot of trigger time, bench time, ballistic knowledge, weapons knowledge and basically allot of time and dedication. Kinda like those guys using bows, blackpower, single shot rifles etc...an acquired skill.

If I can consistently hit Very Small targets out to my definition of extreme ranges and am confident in my abilities...And since I consider myself an ethical and knowledgeable hunter, then I will take those shots.

Like all ethical hunters I will not sacrifice an animal simply to target practice.

Just my opinion.

Agreed.

[Elkhunt]

A fellow explained to me , you need to shoot 900 yards to get an elk, one day as I was shooting a Flint lock.
Realy I said, and how do you think Bow Hunters do this?
The look was priceless.

:)

[addictedfisherman]

Accurate Long Range Shooting is a skill acquired through allot of trigger time, bench time, ballistic knowledge, weapons knowledge and basically allot of time and dedication. Kinda like those guys using bows, blackpower, single shot rifles etc...an acquired skill.

If I can consistently hit Very Small targets out to my definition of extreme ranges and am confident in my abilities...And since I consider myself an ethical and knowledgeable hunter, then I will take those shots.

Like all ethical hunters I will not sacrifice an animal simply to target practice.

Just my opinion.
X2, well put.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Actually all my coyotes have been 1 shot even finished a few for my partners 2 wolves one shot each, I don't hunt geese only shot one gopher when I was ten one shot with my neighbours 250 and I hunt chickens with my bow,I practice a lot and if a gun won't group I either fix it or junk it

Can you send me an autograph please?...I need it for my collection of the best of the best.

LC :)

[kayaker]

The salient issue is the difference between those who 'know' (i.e. have a high or realistic probability of landing long shots on target) and those who think or hope they can. I wager that the former group is MUCH smaller than the latter.

That smaller group has the discipline, funds, desire to study the ballistics and space to spend a lot of trigger time shooting at those extended ranges, learning to dope wind etc. The latter think a magnum cartridge, high BC bullet and a BDC reticle of some type will stand them in good stead on any November day when a buck steps out at 'around 600 yards'.

[Okotokian]

In my experience most (not all) long range "hunters" exercise as much patience trying to locate wounded animals as they use when trying to find something to shoot at.
They shoot at anything they can see within the range of their weapon and if they miss or they appear to have missed... they lose interest very quickly and move on.
They also tend to be the same guys that assume their performance at the bench on level ground will be the same in the field regardless of angle, position and weather.


So most (not all) of the long range hunters that you know are unethical. Fair enough. I know some short range hunters that are unethical. It is not the distance of the shot that reflects ethics but rather the care and preparation and demonstrated skill (or lack thereof) that goes into taking the animal.

If Hunter A can consistently get 3 out of 4 shots in a three inch circle at 200 yards and Hunter B can consistently get 3 out of 4 shots in a three inch circle at 600 yards, then the shooters are demonstrating the same level of ethics taking shots at the ranges indicated. Hunter B is no less "ethical". If he can't do that however, then he is.

Now I will say that long range hunting is more skewed to the "shooting" end of the spectrum than the "hunting" end, but nothing wrong with that. We call guys that are over on the extreme "hunting" end of the continuum "bowhunters". We don't contend that they are more ethical than rifle hunters.

[gopher]

I have hunted for 30 years and never shot an animal twice and never lost one.practice and discipline know you're limits.Back on topic if you can make the shot comfortably take it if you miss don't ever try it again,discipline .

Sounds...

[Dog hunter]

nof60 you sound frustrated maybe you need a new scope

[Big Daddy Badger]

.

So I guess all long ranger hunters are just like you then?

I stand corrected.... the world has suddenly found itself with more super duper capable marksmen than wannabes.

Whatever... you mind is made up... you can do no wrong.
Everyone that has a scoped rifle has a 7-800 meter range in their back yard and they use it.

Got it.

Feeling a bit defensive much?

Perhaps you protest too strongly... or take things too personnally?

[Big Daddy Badger]

So most (not all) of the long range hunters that you know are unethical. Fair enough. I know some short range hunters that are unethical. It is not the distance of the shot that reflects ethics but rather the care and preparation and demonstrated skill (or lack thereof) that goes into taking the animal.

If Hunter A can consistently get 3 out of 4 shots in a three inch circle at 200 yards and Hunter B can consistently get 3 out of 4 shots in a three inch circle at 600 yards, then the shooters are demonstrating the same level of ethics taking shots at the ranges indicated. Hunter B is no less "ethical". If he can't do that however, then he is.

Now I will say that long range hunting is more skewed to the "shooting" end of the spectrum than the "hunting" end, but nothing wrong with that. We call guys that are over on the extreme "hunting" end of the continuum "bowhunters". We don't contend that they are more ethical than rifle hunters.

I disagree... there is more to hunting than shooting.

Can hunter A and B both find the spot the animal was when they fired?
Are they both good trackers?
Will they both follow through with the same effort to find the animal.

I know that some are getting their backs up here and thats too bad.

The question was asked and I answered.

Fact is I know a half dozen guys that pride themselves as long range hunters but are nothing more than fair shots.
Those same guys take flyers at running animals and always seem to be trying to find blood.
They are the same guys that forget to look behind their animals before touching off and are generally lazy slobs.

I'm sure that others who hunt long range are not but my point is that there are far more who are not capable but try anyway than there are those that are capable and do.

[Rman]

Pesky, if all of the answers to your questions above are "yes", then what?

R.

[nof60]

nof60 you sound frustrated maybe you need a new scope

My zeiss is just fine. Maybe I need you to teach me how to shoot.

[nof60]

So I guess all long ranger hunters are just like you then?Never said they were. I know how many rounds a year I fire and where I fire them. Are all short range hunters like you? Taking pot shots out the window of their pick ups?

I stand corrected.... the world has suddenly found itself with more super duper capable marksmen than wannabes.Didnt say that either. It was you who painted all long range guys with the same brush Buying a big scope and a sendero does not make you a long range shot. Shooting long ranges makes you a long range shot.

Whatever... you mind is made up... you can do no wrong.
Everyone that has a scoped rifle has a 7-800 meter range in their back yard and they use it.Didnt say that either. Lots of guys are better shots than me. I feel comfortable on game out to about 650 yards with my 300wby. 375-400 with my 7-08. My hunting partner is a much better shot than me and is comfortable to about 800 with his warbird depending on conditions

Got it.Got it. i should drive around with a 30-06 my pa gave me and shoot deer out the truck window.

Feeling a bit defensive much?not at all, you couldn't harrow what i plow son

Perhaps you protest too strongly... or take things too personnally?when people call me lazy and say I cant hunt I do. I also bow hunt. I find it challenging also. Or are you also against bow hunting cause lazy bowhunters like to sit in a treestand all day.
Smile dude. Theres more to life than the internet. Go to the range. You will never know your limits till you push them

[nof60]

I disagree... there is more to hunting than shooting.

Can hunter A and B both find the spot the animal was when they fired?
Are they both good trackers?
Will they both follow through with the same effort to find the animal.

I know that some are getting their backs up here and thats too bad.

The question was asked and I answered.

Fact is I know a half dozen guys that pride themselves as long range hunters but are nothing more than fair shots.
Those same guys take flyers at running animals and always seem to be trying to find blood.
They are the same guys that forget to look behind their animals before touching off and are generally lazy slobs.

I'm sure that others who hunt long range are not but my point is that there are far more who are not capable but try anyway than there are those that are capable and do.

You need to hunt with different people. What is that they say about birds of a feather???

[Big Daddy Badger]

Can you send me an autograph please?...I need it for my collection of the best of the best.

LC :)
Store is carefully... the crayon might smudge

[Big Daddy Badger]

You need to hunt with different people. What is that they say about birds of a feather???

Knowing and associating are two different things.

I usually hunt alone.

I can make those long shots too.... but I don't kill animals for the challenge of it.
I kill them to eat.
If I want to challenge myself... I kill paper.

It really isn't that hard to close the distance to at least 3 or 4 hundred meters.

I don't undestand why you are having such a hard time accepting the legitimacy of that position.

You are the ultimate sniper... fine.
Why is it so hard to accept that you have a lot of bad company that is not in your league but will try anyway?
There are simply more who try than do... and that is a growing problem.

[Rman]

Whenever an issue of long range hunting comes up, the standards seem to be set by few, who feel that they have the right to judge many.
As Cat said earlier, at what range does it become unethical?
I let conditions, skill, and terrain decide at what distance I will shoot an animal, in that order.
I know what I am capable of. End of story.
Bottom line is, I could really care less about what a few couch riders on the internet think about what is "right" and what is wrong. I, and I alone, decide what is right for me to do, and I carry my actions acordingly.

R.

[nof60]

Knowing and associating are two different things.

I usually hunt alone.I can believe that.

I can make those long shots toothen why dont you? If you are scared of missing or wounding an animal obviously you cannot make those "long shots".... but I don't kill animals for the challenge of it.
I kill them to eat.I dont buy that. i believe that you eat what you kill, but unless you are typing from a desert island or a plane crash sight in the remote rockies you do not need to hunt to eat. It is not cheaper than buying meat
If I want to challenge myself... I kill paper.poor trees

It really isn't that hard to close the distance to at least 3 or 4 hundred meters.it not that hard to close the distance to under 40 meters. You are so unethical.

I don't undestand why you are having such a hard time accepting the legitimacy of that position.just cause you say it does not legitimize it. I never voted for you to be king of all things hunting

You are the ultimate sniper... fine.Thank you
Why is it so hard to accept that you have a lot of bad company that is not in your league but will try anyway?No different than all you non practising, poor shot, road hunting ilk. Like i said before careful where you throw those rocks cause you might hit your glass house
There are simply more who try than do... and that is a growing problem.Better to try than to wag your finger at those that do

Your funny

[Dog hunter]

Nof60,Zeiss,auto loaders are you a road hunter?????lollollol

[Jordan Smith]

I love these threads :)

[nof60]

Nof60,Zeiss,auto loaders are you a road hunter?????lollollol

what auto loader are you talking about? I said repeater. You know, repeater. As in bolt action. Go ask your dad what a zeiss is.

I guess you missed the point. But wait, you never miss anything do you?

[Rman]

So I guess all long ranger hunters are just like you then?

I stand corrected.... the world has suddenly found itself with more super duper capable marksmen than wannabes.

Whatever... you mind is made up... you can do no wrong.
Everyone that has a scoped rifle has a 7-800 meter range in their back yard and they use it.

Got it.

Feeling a bit defensive much?

Perhaps you protest too strongly... or take things too personnally?

You have zero credibility...

R.

[covey ridge]

Your funny

You are hilarious! You do know that the said he kills them to eat. Never said anything about any need for food as you imply?

[Jordan Smith]

Wait....so hunters that shoot their game at longer distances than pesky don't kill the animals to eat them?

I'm so confused.

[gopher]

I can make those long shots too....

On a keyboard maybe….

[Okotokian]

I disagree... there is more to hunting than shooting.

Can hunter A and B both find the spot the animal was when they fired?
Are they both good trackers?
Will they both follow through with the same effort to find the animal.

.

Pesky, would you acknowledge that they COULD? If hunter A and B are both equally good spotters and trackers, and both equally willing to go the distance to recover game, then there is no ethics deficit. You said there is more to huntinmg than shooting. Let's say I agree. Because something requires a narrower set of skills, however, does not make it unethical. Ice fishing takes a narrower set of physical skills than fly fishing, but that doesn't make ice fishing unethical (just boring LOL)

[Rman]

On a keyboard maybe….

From the couch...

R.

[Rman]

Pesky, would you acknowledge that they COULD? If hunter A and B are both equally good spotters and trackers, and both equally willing to go the distance to recover game, then there is no ethics deficit. You said there is more to huntinmg than shooting. Let's say I agree. Because something requires a narrower set of skills, however, does not make it unethical. Ice fishing takes a narrower set of physical skills than fly fishing, but that doesn't make ice fishing unethical (just boring LOL)

I already axed that question...
Crickets...
Cue tumbleweed blowing down deserted street...

R.

[moosehead7]

If you ask me long range shootng is great on targets ONLY dont mess around with an animals life just for the satisfaction or bragging rights, show some respect towardss the animal :angry3:

[Jordan Smith]

My opinion:

When I leave my house in the morning with the objective of cleanly and efficiently killing an animal for meat and possibly hide or antlers, I want to use every tool and skill available to me so I can be successful in that venture. I want to have spent the time and money to develop my ability to call game when opportune, to stalk skillfully, to glass effectively, to judge game accurately, to still hunt patiently, and to place a bullet accurately in a vital part of the animal.

I spend a lot of time and money studying, planning, practicing, tuning, loading, and practicing some more when it comes to shooting rifles effectively. I do this not because I'm insistent on taking long shots at game, as I don't prescribe to the "Sierra sneak" mentality, but because I want to open up as many options as possible. I'm happy to shoot an animal at 10 yards in the bush, and I'm also happy to take a 500 yard shot at an animal in open country, assuming the conditions, my abilities, and the animal's behaviour are "right" in both cases. My objective is to get my game animal cleanly and effectively, regardless of the hunting method that I employ on any given day, be it still hunting at rock-throwing distances, or spot-and-stalk or stand hunting in the open at extended ranges.

I've spent plenty of time hunting with guys that I personally didn't think should be shooting beyond 50 yards, or maybe 100 with a solid rest. Yet nobody blows the whistle when those kinds of guys take a shot at 150 yards and the animal requires a follow-up shot. I've personally shot some groups from a bipod at over 1000 yards that were smaller than some groups I've seen guys shoot off of sang bags at 100 yards. I've also spent some time guiding clients. Nothing calms the guide more than watching the hunter get off the plane, sit down at the sight-in bench, and proceed to start stacking shot after shot in the center of the target, and nothing is more confidence-shaking than watching a hunter sit down with a new rifle and scope that he had bore-sighted just before flying up to camp, and see him jerk the trigger, close his eyes, and grit his teeth just before the gun goes off on every shot. To walk up and see a 6" group or larger at 100 yards is downright frightening to his guide. If the first hunter says that he's confident out to 400 yards, I believe him. But I likely won't encourage the second hunter to shoot at game beyond 75-100 yards, at most.

There are opportunities when you are limited by time, terrain, time of day, animal behaviour or movement, or other factors, and you simply can't close the distance any more than what you've got right now in the moment. The shooting opportunity is good now, but in 5 minutes it won't be. It's nice not to be limited by the shooter's inability or lack of confidence in such instances. I've shot animals at 15 feet, and I've shot them at 942 yards, with lots in between. Most were one-shot kills, but some required 2 and even 3 shots to put on the ground. At the same time, I am VERY uncomfortable when a guy claims he can make a shot that, based on watching him shoot, I don't believe he's prepared to make with a 90-100% success rate. There's a difference between thinking you can, and knowing you can. I learn how to still-hunt, how to spot-and-stalk, how to call, how to sneak quietly, how to judge quickly, how to glass, how to read sign, how to judge an animal's behaviour prior to, and its reaction after a shot, how to shoot short, how to hit running game, and how to shoot long, ALL because I want to be prepared to take advantage of any and every opportunity I may get to cleanly take the game that I'm after, and I don't want to be limited or lose opportunities simply because of my failure to develop the various skill sets and abilities that enable me to accomplish the objective that I set out to achieve when I walked out the door in the morning.

[Rman]

If you ask me long range shootng is great on targets ONLY dont mess around with an animals life just for the satisfaction or bragging rights, show some respect towardss the animal :angry3:

You're not getting it. Respect for the animal has nothing to do with what distance it was killed at.
I was also unaware that satisfaction and bragging rights had a distance limit as well.

R.

[moosehead7]

You're not getting it. Respect for the animal has nothing to do with what distance it was killed at.
I was also unaware that satisfaction and bragging rights had a distance limit as well.

R.

its just guys who think they are hero shooters and screw up the longer distances the more to go wrong use your brain,your unaware of common sence :snapoutofit:

[Jordan Smith]

On the flip side, it is far more common for LR shooters to take shooting seriously and to be better prepared and more committed to maintaining their skills than the average hunter who goes through a couple of boxes of ammo a year and won't shoot over 200 yards. I've seen more miffed shots made by casual hunters at short ranges, than I have by serious LR riflemen made at longer ranges...

[Rman]

its just guys who think they are hero shooters and screw up the longer distances the more to go wrong use your brain,your unaware of common sence :snapoutofit:

Fella, I can gurantee I am not some hero shooter that scews up at longer distances (whatever you think that is...). I use my brain. It tells me to practice. Then practice leads to confidence. Confidence leads to ability. Ability leads to results. It's the same, to someone that thinks, no matter what the distance.
I have more common sense in my left nut than you'll ever have. I use it. In the field. Not from the couch. You should try it sometime. You may suprise yourself. And try to remember, common sense isn't as common as most think it is. A great example is in your last post.

R.

[moosehead7]

Fella, I can gurantee I am not some hero shooter that scews up at longer distances (whatever you think that is...). I use my brain. It tells me to practice. Then practice leads to confidence. Confidence leads to ability. Ability leads to results. It's the same, to someone that thinks, no matter what the distance.
I have more common sense in my left nut than you'll ever have. I use it. In the field. Not from the couch. You should try it sometime. You may suprise yourself. And try to remember, common sense isn't as common as most think it is. A great example is in your last post.

R.

well i will sleep better knowing that, wow you must be the best hunter on this forum congrats

[pikergolf]

I've personally shot some groups from a bipod at over 1000 yards that were smaller than some groups I've seen guys shoot off of sang bags at 100 yards.

What size groups are you shooting from bipods at 1000yds?

[Unregistered user]

TJ really nailed threads like this in last month's AO mag.

[Rman]

well i will sleep better knowing that, wow you must be the best hunter on this forum congrats

I'm glad you'll sleep well. Ignorance is truly bliss. I didn't see anywhere where I claimed to be the best hunter? You must have me confused with someone else?

R.

[Rman]

TJ really nailed threads like this in last month's AO mag.

What did he have to say? I don't subscribe to the magazine. It is obviously a hot topic. I really don't get what distance has to do with cleanly killing an animal.
It's all been said before...


R.

[gopher]

TJ really nailed threads like this in last month's AO mag.

A LR discussion is not the same with out TJ now there is no one to push sponsored products on us.

[moosehead7]

What did he have to say? I don't subscribe to the magazine. It is obviously a hot topic. I really don't get what distance has to do with cleanly killing an animal.
It's all been said before...


R.

the longer the shot the more room for a mistake plain and simple

[Jordan Smith]

the longer the shot the more room for a mistake plain and simple

You ever shoot at running game? Be honest...

[moosehead7]

You ever shoot at running game? Be honest...

Honesty no i have not and niether has anyone in my family,and never will whats your point:bad_boys_20:

[Lefty-Canuck]

A LR discussion is not the same with out TJ now there is no one to push sponsored products on us.

What was said in the article is nothing that hasn't been said before....or won't be said again.

LC

[Jordan Smith]

I've personally shot some groups from a bipod at over 1000 yards that were smaller than some groups I've seen guys shoot off of sang bags at 100 yards.

What size groups are you shooting from bipods at 1000yds?

If you really want to know...

This was shot 1 week ago. The two shots on the top of the target are from a different rifle. The 5-shot group is smaller than some 3-shot groups I've seen guys shoot at 100 yards off of sand bags. I'm not bragging, just saying that distance is something that should be matched to each shooter's ability and the precision of his equipment. The guys that were shooting larger groups at 100 yards shouldn't be shooting at game beyond 75-100, with a good rest.

http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y397/The_Jerbel/243AI/null_zpsbca506d1.png

http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y397/The_Jerbel/243AI/null_zpsc87b69dc.jpg

[Jordan Smith]

Honesty no i have not and niether has anyone in my family,and never will whats your point:bad_boys_20:

My point is that many of the anti-LR shooting advocates are fine with shooting at running game, which is far harder to accomplish without wounding than shooting at distance, IME.

[gopher]

What was said in the article is nothing that hasn't been said before....or won't be said again.

LC

So?

And TJ did have some pretty impressive shots.

[Speckle55]

Agree ... well said but i will not judge you as your ethics are yours alone and your said ability is unjudged there for most of what i would say about you is assuming..
and if something gets away then the Circle of Life takes over if its a 50 yd shot or 1000yd i have shot lots of ungulates in 40 plus years of hunting and

am i smarter than a Fifth Grader the answer is no:test:

David:)


My opinion:

When I leave my house in the morning with the objective of cleanly and efficiently killing an animal for meat and possibly hide or antlers, I want to use every tool and skill available to me so I can be successful in that venture. I want to have spent the time and money to develop my ability to call game when opportune, to stalk skillfully, to glass effectively, to judge game accurately, to still hunt patiently, and to place a bullet accurately in a vital part of the animal.

I spend a lot of time and money studying, planning, practicing, tuning, loading, and practicing some more when it comes to shooting rifles effectively. I do this not because I'm insistent on taking long shots at game, as I don't prescribe to the "Sierra sneak" mentality, but because I want to open up as many options as possible. I'm happy to shoot an animal at 10 yards in the bush, and I'm also happy to take a 500 yard shot at an animal in open country, assuming the conditions, my abilities, and the animal's behaviour are "right" in both cases. My objective is to get my game animal cleanly and effectively, regardless of the hunting method that I employ on any given day, be it still hunting at rock-throwing distances, or spot-and-stalk or stand hunting in the open at extended ranges.

I've spent plenty of time hunting with guys that I personally didn't think should be shooting beyond 50 yards, or maybe 100 with a solid rest. Yet nobody blows the whistle when those kinds of guys take a shot at 150 yards and the animal requires a follow-up shot. I've personally shot some groups from a bipod at over 1000 yards that were smaller than some groups I've seen guys shoot off of sang bags at 100 yards. I've also spent some time guiding clients. Nothing calms the guide more than watching the hunter get off the plane, sit down at the sight-in bench, and proceed to start stacking shot after shot in the center of the target, and nothing is more confidence-shaking than watching a hunter sit down with a new rifle and scope that he had bore-sighted just before flying up to camp, and see him jerk the trigger, close his eyes, and grit his teeth just before the gun goes off on every shot. To walk up and see a 6" group or larger at 100 yards is downright frightening to his guide. If the first hunter says that he's confident out to 400 yards, I believe him. But I likely won't encourage the second hunter to shoot at game beyond 75-100 yards, at most.

There are opportunities when you are limited by time, terrain, time of day, animal behaviour or movement, or other factors, and you simply can't close the distance any more than what you've got right now in the moment. The shooting opportunity is good now, but in 5 minutes it won't be. It's nice not to be limited by the shooter's inability or lack of confidence in such instances. I've shot animals at 15 feet, and I've shot them at 942 yards, with lots in between. Most were one-shot kills, but some required 2 and even 3 shots to put on the ground. At the same time, I am VERY uncomfortable when a guy claims he can make a shot that, based on watching him shoot, I don't believe he's prepared to make with a 90-100% success rate. There's a difference between thinking you can, and knowing you can. I learn how to still-hunt, how to spot-and-stalk, how to call, how to sneak quietly, how to judge quickly, how to glass, how to read sign, how to judge an animal's behaviour prior to, and its reaction after a shot, how to shoot short, how to hit running game, and how to shoot long, ALL because I want to be prepared to take advantage of any and every opportunity I may get to cleanly take the game that I'm after, and I don't want to be limited or lose opportunities simply because of my failure to develop the various skill sets and abilities that enable me to accomplish the objective that I set out to achieve when I walked out the door in the morning.

[pikergolf]

If you really want to know...

This was shot 1 week ago. The two shots on the top of the target are from a different rifle. The 5-shot group is smaller than some 3-shot groups I've seen guys shoot at 100 yards off of sand bags. I'm not bragging, just saying that distance is something that should be matched to each shooter's ability and the precision of his equipment. The guys that were shooting larger groups at 100 yards shouldn't be shooting at game beyond 75-100, with a good rest.

http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y397/The_Jerbel/243AI/null_zpsbca506d1.png

http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y397/The_Jerbel/243AI/null_zpsc87b69dc.jpg

That's some fine shooting!

[C & C]

Not sure if I missed it but where did it say guys can’t shoot game at ### yards? I sure there are many capable to shoot at w/e distance floats their boat but is it hunting? I am sure many of the people who have stated their shooting time and accomplishments in here could shoot and 1 shot kill anything they want at ### but was there a hunt involved?

I don’t have much to go on with long range hunting except what stories I hear here and youtube videos. When 6 guys can walk around on the opposite mountain, talk freely and not have to worry at all that the animal may even realize their there; I don’t think there is much sport or ethical fair chase involved. The shots were all perfect and the animals folded just like it had been shot at 50 yards but it didn’t seem like much of a hunt.

I am not trying to take away from the skill and time it takes to become proficient at shooting long range but is it hunting or just hiking to you next long range live target?

[Lefty-Canuck]

So?

And TJ did have some pretty impressive shots.

So....? I don't follow....

Just commenting on the article, not your comment.

LC

[Jordan Smith]

Not sure if I missed it but where did it say guys can’t shoot game at ### yards? I sure there are many capable to shoot at w/e distance floats their boat but is it hunting? I am sure many of the people who have stated their shooting time and accomplishments in here could shoot and 1 shot kill anything they want at ### but was there a hunt involved?

I don’t have much to go on with long range hunting except what stories I hear here and youtube videos. When 6 guys can walk around on the opposite mountain, talk freely and not have to worry at all that the animal may even realize their there; I don’t think there is much sport or ethical fair chase involved. The shots were all perfect and the animals folded just like it had been shot at 50 yards but it didn’t seem like much of a hunt.

I am not trying to take away from the skill and time it takes to become proficient at shooting long range but is it hunting or just hiking to you next long range live target?

I've shot animals from distances that most every guy here would consider short, without the animal knowing I was there. My biggest buck was shot while I was trying to fall asleep against a tree, when a doe ran by in front of me, with him hot on her heels!

Point being- "sport" and "ethical fair chase" are not determined by how difficult the hunt is, but by the fact that you're legally in pursuit of your quarry, which you intend to kill cleanly and quickly, by whatever means.

Hunting- "hunting [ˈhʌntɪŋ]
(Individual Sports & Recreations / Hunting)
a. the pursuit and killing or capture of game and wild animals, regarded as a sport"

I start pursuing game animals with the intent to kill them the moment I park my truck and step out the door. Tree stand, still hunting, tracking, calling, spot-and-stalk, LR shots, close-range shots, etc. It's all pursuing and killing game animals.

I think the real question is- what style of hunting gets your blood pumping the most, and which do you enjoy the most? It's a different answer for each individual.

[Speckle55]

Very nice shooting Jordan you can come out here to Hinton i will take you hunting any time

David

Mule deer Buck 1200 Yds Camp 27 mill cuts
Bull Moose 975 Yds Gregg River road mill cuts
Mule Deer 700 Meters Camp Wainwright

2012 Dec 3 time 1:20 pm Buffalo West pipeline 72 Ranged yards shot at 190 plus Mule Deer Buck bedded right beteween the eyes 7mm Rem Mag 175gr PP Win head down abit gave him a hair cut spray field 4 ft short hair buck ran away .. Bullet speed 2840 fps .. my youngest son .. range Shooting less than 3/4 inch dead bullseye :fighting0021:
My 2012 hunting season 4 one shot kills with same gun:fighting0007:

David:)


:)If you really want to know...

This was shot 1 week ago. The two shots on the top of the target are from a different rifle. The 5-shot group is smaller than some 3-shot groups I've seen guys shoot at 100 yards off of sand bags. I'm not bragging, just saying that distance is something that should be matched to each shooter's ability and the precision of his equipment. The guys that were shooting larger groups at 100 yards shouldn't be shooting at game beyond 75-100, with a good rest.

http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y397/The_Jerbel/243AI/null_zpsbca506d1.png

http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y397/The_Jerbel/243AI/null_zpsc87b69dc.jpg

[sns2]

Wow, you must really think we all fell off the turnip truck yesterday.

100% agree

[Unregistered user]

What did he have to say? I don't subscribe to the magazine. It is obviously a hot topic. I really don't get what distance has to do with cleanly killing an animal.
It's all been said before...


R.

The article was about respecting other hunters and not imposing your personal set of ethics on everyone else. (Fishermen can be the same). A funny thing in the article mentioned if 50 hunters were to get together in a room and develope a new set of hunting regulations, hunting would be banned outright.

[covey ridge]

Ethics are personal. Whenever one speaks of his/her ethics, others get defensive. It is difficult to discuss ones point of view without sounding judgemental. This thread and many others in relation to firearm use and possession demonstrate that the pro gun people, hardly agree on anything and are united on even less. I will admit that is very judgemental on my part but it is what it is. These type of discussions very seldom resolve anything. I would suspect these types of threads are very entertaining to the non gun people who probably are reading them.

[mcreg]

And one could add that this post is entitled "ETHICS...." but again another post has evolved into a "Look at me I"m a great shot (hunter)!" forum. I mean pictures of a target?? What does that have to do with the topic? Come on guys!!!!
But if nothing else it most certainly is amusing..

[Don K]

What was said in the article is nothing that hasn't been said before....or won't be said again.

LC

I'm pretty sure there's nothing he's ever said hasn't been said before...

[Jordan Smith]

And one could add that this post is entitled "ETHICS...." but again another post has evolved into a "Look at me I"m a great shot (hunter)!" forum. I mean pictures of a target?? What does that have to do with the topic? Come on guys!!!!
But if nothing else it most certainly is amusing..

A guy asked about groups shot on targets, and I posted a picture in response. Is that okay with you?

And if you can't connect the dots between practicing on targets, and LR hunting, then you're probably in the wrong thread ;)

[C & C]

I've shot animals from distances that most every guy here would consider short, without the animal knowing I was there. My biggest buck was shot while I was trying to fall asleep against a tree, when a doe ran by in front of me, with him hot on her heels!

Point being- "sport" and "ethical fair chase" are not determined by how difficult the hunt is, but by the fact that you're legally in pursuit of your quarry, which you intend to kill cleanly and quickly, by whatever means.

Hunting- "hunting [ˈhʌntɪŋ]
(Individual Sports & Recreations / Hunting)
a. the pursuit and killing or capture of game and wild animals, regarded as a sport"

I start pursuing game animals with the intent to kill them the moment I park my truck and step out the door. Tree stand, still hunting, tracking, calling, spot-and-stalk, LR shots, close-range shots, etc. It's all pursuing and killing game animals.

I think the real question is- what style of hunting gets your blood pumping the most, and which do you enjoy the most? It's a different answer for each individual.

You may want to check out B&C fair chase guidelines.

While you may have shot a buck while falling asleep, I doubt you had 3 or 4 buddies beside you chatting, walking back and forth from the rifle to the spotting scope to the range finder? You probably were also lucky in that there was little wind or it was in your favor and that yes deer become easier to hunt in the rut I would love to see the same scenario of 6 guys talking, walking around and a film crew behind them with a deer at 50 yards oblivious to their presence.

At a #### yards there is no fair chase, the only factor that will result in no kill is the capability of the shooter. An animal at ####yards will be oblivious to your smell, movement and sound.

I am not saying that the long range guys should stop, but IMO I think they should decide on a distance cap for trophies or break it into categories of range. Each requires a different recognizable skill set that differs from each other.

I used the #### because the last thread like this too many focused only on that number rather than the idea around it.

[Andrzej]

2. Myśliwy może oddać strzał do zwierzyny znajdującej się od niego w odległości nie większej niż:
1) 40 m - w razie strzału śrutem lub kulą z broni o lufach gładkich;
2) 100 m - w razie strzału kulą z broni o lufach gwintowanych, przy wykorzystaniu otwartych przyrządów celowniczych;
3) 200 m - w razie strzału kulą z broni o lufach gwintowanych, przy wykorzystaniu optycznych przyrządów celowniczych.

This is from current huntig regulations in Poland

Can not shoot beyond 40 m when using smooth bore gun or using pellets
Can not shoot beyond 100 m from rifle with open sights
Can not shoot beyond 200m with scoped rifle.

No LR hunting, 200m max.

[greylynx]

2. Myśliwy może oddać strzał do zwierzyny znajdującej się od niego w odległości nie większej niż:
1) 40 m - w razie strzału śrutem lub kulą z broni o lufach gładkich;
2) 100 m - w razie strzału kulą z broni o lufach gwintowanych, przy wykorzystaniu otwartych przyrządów celowniczych;
3) 200 m - w razie strzału kulą z broni o lufach gwintowanych, przy wykorzystaniu optycznych przyrządów celowniczych.

This is from current huntig regulations in Poland

Can not shoot beyond 40 m when using smooth bore gun or using pellets
Can not shoot beyond 100 m from rifle with open sights
Can not shoot beyond 200m with scoped rifle.

No LR hunting, 200m max.

Dobra Andy.

To get a hunting licence in Poland due you have to take the test of firing at a moving life sixe moose silhouette like in Finland?

I was just wondering.:)

Thanks.

[Jordan Smith]

You may want to check out B&C fair chase guidelines.

While you may have shot a buck while falling asleep, I doubt you had 3 or 4 buddies beside you chatting, walking back and forth from the rifle to the spotting scope to the range finder? You probably were also lucky in that there was little wind or it was in your favor and that yes deer become easier to hunt in the rut I would love to see the same scenario of 6 guys talking, walking around and a film crew behind them with a deer at 50 yards oblivious to their presence.

At a #### yards there is no fair chase, the only factor that will result in no kill is the capability of the shooter. An animal at ####yards will be oblivious to your smell, movement and sound.

I am not saying that the long range guys should stop, but IMO I think they should decide on a distance cap for trophies or break it into categories of range. Each requires a different recognizable skill set that differs from each other.

I used the #### because the last thread like this too many focused only on that number rather than the idea around it.

Kind of ironic that we're discussing ethical, fair chase and B&C trophy standards in the same sentence. Many people (I'm not one of them) believe that trophy hunting just to make book is unethical, just like other people (I'm also not one of them) think that LR hunting is unethical.

I'm sure you don't really believe that all LR hunting involves 4 friends and a camera crew walking around in circles, smoking, laughing, farting, doing jumping jacks, etc, right? Some aspects of LR hunting are in fact harder than hunting at close range. You don't have the wind to mask your presence and allow you to get close enough to shoot from the hip, you can't call the animal in to you which usually causes it to lower its defenses, and you can't use bush pushers to drive game animals from their hiding spots. IME, it's harder to find shootable game at long range than at short range, because of all the hunting methods I can employ at short range, but I'm always glad to have the ability to shoot at longer distances when those opportunities do arise.

[Andrzej]

Dobra Andy.

To get a hunting licence in Poland due you have to take the test of firing at a moving life sixe moose silhouette like in Finland?

I was just wondering.:)

Thanks.

To get licence you have to have mentor and participate for 12 m before you can take course and part of it is practical exam in proficiency in shooting to running rabbit from 30m and trap and pheasant from tower from 3 different angles than running boar from 50 m with rifle 5 times from left to right and 5 times from right to left.

If you pass you get licence to hunt with shotgun... after you hunt with shotgun for 3 years you can take 6 weekends course to become selectioneer and be eligible to hunt with rifle.

I went through this regime but don't know if it is as hard those days.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Pesky, if all of the answers to your questions above are "yes", then what?

R.

Then they would be the exception to the rule... have at her as long as it is safe.

My point is that the bulk of guys that claim capability are FOS.

How many times have yopu come across a guy standing on a cow flop tracking elk for instance?

[Big Daddy Badger]

From the couch...

R.

Any time you want to come over and look at my trophys... or spend a day doing practical shooting I'll happily oblige although... I'm not 18 and a 99.8% shooter anymore.... I still seem to be able to do better than most guys.

Bring your girlfriend Gopher.:)

[Torkdiesel]

So, what if the animal moves ?

Seen it a few times on the long range shows. Head shot bear at 700 yards and gut shot / spined elk a couple days ago at 800 yards. Could have just as easily taken out a leg or just hit rump.

[catnthehat]

So, what if the animal moves ?

Seen it a few times on the long range shows. Head shot bear at 700 yards and gut shot / spined elk a couple days ago at 800 yards. Could have just as easily taken out a leg or just hit rump.

The same thing happens of you hit a twig you cannot see at 75 yards - you either miss or wound the animal.
I have done both at less than 100 yards.
Cat

[Speckle55]

The same thing happens of you hit a twig you cannot see at 75 yards - you either miss or wound the animal.
I have done both at less than 100 yards.
Cat

Agree:confused0024:

me too:sign0007:

Wt 75 yds miss:sign0176: .. i was 25yrs old:sign0161:

David:)

[elkhunter11]

I have no issue with people taking shots that they have practiced regularly on targets, even if those shots are at ranges that are longer than most people choose to shoot. My only issue, is when I see someone show up at the range, shoot no further than 100-200 yards at targets, then take shots at animals at 500 yards or further based on trajectory calculations, or on a BDC reticle, that has not been verified past 100-200 yards. Last summer, I watch one individual sight in a rifle at 25 yards, and then proclaim to his partner that he was ready to shoot game animals at 700 yards.

[Torkdiesel]

The same thing happens of you hit a twig you cannot see at 75 yards - you either miss or wound the animal.
I have done both at less than 100 yards.
Cat

Yes catnthehat, I've had many hunters use this excuse for why they missed an animal at those distances. There was a youtube clip where they tried to recreate this exact senario. They fired a hundred shots that hit twigs that were in the way and the best they managed was a 5-6 inch deflection at a hundred yards.

My point was targets don't move and I've never seen somebody get the shakes looking at a really big gong :(

[Lefty-Canuck]

I have no issue with people taking shots that they have practiced regularly on targets, even if those shots are at ranges that are longer than most people choose to shoot. My only issue, is when I see someone show up at the range, shoot no further than 100-200 yards at targets, then take shots at animals at 500 yards or further based on trajectory calculations, or on a BDC reticle, that has not been verified past 100-200 yards. Last summer, I watch one individual sight in a rifle at 25 yards, and then proclaim to his partner that he was ready to shoot game animals at 700 yards.

I am with you elkhunter all the charts graphs and ballistic reticles in the world cannot substitute true empirical results....

Too many people rely on equipment and manufacturers claims to get the job done.....there are few shortcuts one can take to be a proficient long range shooter/hunter.

LC

[elkhunter11]

I am with you elkhunter all the charts graphs and ballistic reticles in the world cannot substitute true empirical results....

Too many people rely on equipment and manufacturers claims to get the job done.....there are few shortcuts one can take to be a proficient long range shooter/hunter.

If you were to post that a few months ago, I am sure that someone would immediately be arguing that technology can take the place of skill and experience, where long range shooting is concerned.:)

[elkhunter11]

Yes catnthehat, I've had many hunters use this excuse for why they missed an animal at those distances. There was a youtube clip where they tried to recreate this exact senario. They fired a hundred shots that hit twigs that were in the way and the best they managed was a 5-6 inch deflection at a hundred yards.

It depends how far the twig is from the target. The farther the twig is from the target, the greater the potential deflection.

[catnthehat]

Yes catnthehat, I've had many hunters use this excuse for why they missed an animal at those distances. There was a youtube clip where they tried to recreate this exact senario. They fired a hundred shots that hit twigs that were in the way and the best they managed was a 5-6 inch deflection at a hundred yards.

My point was targets don't move and I've never seen somebody get the shakes looking at a really big gong :(
I found the twig both times!:thinking-006:
Small comfort however....

Cat

[Lefty-Canuck]

If you were to post that a few months ago, I am sure that someone would immediately be arguing that technology can take the place of skill and experience, where long range shooting is concerned.:)

Yup 15 minutes of expert instruction and the latest and the latest/greatest hardware and people are shooting 700 yards all day long :)

LC

[Torkdiesel]

I found the twig both times!:thinking-006:
Small comfort however....

Cat

Yes, my hunter found his twig as well this fall. It's amazing the small branch could deflect a .338 round by almost 2 feet in just 30 yards. But he would have also sworn on a stack of bibles it was true. Perhaps a high iron content gave those particular twigs some stronger properties :)

Perhaps a strong branch with the intended target 200 yards beyond said branch, I'd buy that. I'm afraid many shots would have infact missed whether the "twig" was there or not :(

[KegRiver]

Yes, my hunter found his twig as well this fall. It's amazing the small branch could deflect a .338 round by almost 2 feet in just 30 yards. But he would have also sworn on a stack of bibles it was true. Perhaps a high iron content gave those particular twigs some stronger properties :)

Perhaps a strong branch with the intended target 200 yards beyond said branch, I'd buy that. I'm afraid many shots would have infact missed whether the "twig" was there or not :(


No doubt some times people blame twigs for poor shooting.
And sometimes tests don't tell the whole story.

And sometimes twigs do make the difference. I have a bullet that should have missed the target but hit it because of a twig.

All I know is that I miss enough shots in the under 400 yard range to not even try anything beyond that.

I have seen people makes some, to me, incredibly long shots. Some could even do so repeatedly. But in my world they are the exception, most of the people that I know, who claim to be able to make such shots, can't. Not even on their best day.

[covey ridge]

It depends how far the twig is from the target. The farther the twig is from the target, the greater the potential deflection.

Bipod Down! Prone Position! Good squeeze! Missed a standing mule deer doe at about 150 yards:confused: That was both me and the doe confused:) Jacked in another one and bang flop! The rancher who was with me said that he never saw the shot hit anywhere near. He said that maybe there was grass in front of my muzzle. When I placed my rife in the same position where the shot was taken, there was prairie grass about 6 feet in front of the muzzle that I could not see through the scope. Anyway that is my story and I am sticking with it;)

[Chukar Hunter]

I missed (clear) a Red Hartebeest in Africa at 75 yards prone with my tac driver 06. Myself, my buddy and my PH were all baffled. We then watched the shot thru the video camera on slow motion, we saw grasses pulverize some 10 yards in front of the muzzle. That was enough to warrant a clear miss, even at 75 yards at a brisket of a Red Hartebeest.

Chukar Hunter

[Speckle55]

here is a nice food shot as Boone and Crockett does not count when its food(elk)

ps .. take the Long Range school if you want Rob Furlong(2657yds) will teach you

this type of hunting was done in the 1800's(black powder 1760yds) and i did some in the 1970's and its not going any where

enjoy all

David :)

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Long+Range+Shooting+for+a+novice&view=detail&mid=007DFE06560B337398E3007DFE06560B337398E3&first=21&FORM=NVPFVR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyj_A19Zo30

[sevenmil]

There is an article in the Barnes reloading manual number four edition by Craig Boddington, on long range shooting. It is entitled, "The Trouble with Long Range Shooting." He brings to light a lot of things that most people don't think about. I have read articles by Boddington that I did not agree with, but this one I found to make a lot of sense. Don't know if the article can be found online, but it is worth a read.

[elkhunter11]

There is an article in the Barnes reloading manual number four edition by Craig Boddington, on long range shooting. It is entitled, "The Trouble with Long Range Shooting." He brings to light a lot of things that most people don't think about. I have read articles by Boddington that I did not agree with, but this one I found to make a lot of sense. Don't know if the article can be found online, but it is worth a read.

It's good to hear that someone is being realistic about long range shooting, in that a lot can go wrong.
The television programs that promote long range shooting rarely show misses, and I have never seen one show a poorly shot animal that didn't die quickly. People are making far too much money off of long range shooting products, by convincing people how easy it can be, if you purchase their products. They give the impression that their equipment can replace training and experience. Unfortunately, many people with little to no long range shooting experience, just don't know any better, or they don't want to know any better.

[Speckle55]

It's good to hear that someone is being realistic about long range shooting, in that a lot can go wrong.
The television programs that promote long range shooting rarely show misses, and I have never seen one show a poorly shot animal that didn't die quickly. People are making far too much money off of long range shooting products, by convincing people how easy it can be, if you purchase their products. They give the impression that their equipment can replace training and experience. Unfortunately, many people with little to no long range shooting experience, just don't know any better, or they don't want to know any better.

Who are you meaning or are you assuming .. just because you see one person at the range who wants to try .. why didn,t you offer to teach
..
wow for a person who is a Self possessed Longe Range Specialist you sure are negative..

i have read alot of your posts

hhhmmmmm

David:)

[elkhunter11]

Who are you meaning or are you assuming .. just because you see one person at the range who wants to try .. why didn,t you offer to teach
..
wow for a person who is a Self possessed Longe Range Specialist you sure are negative..


For one, I don't claim to be a long range specialist, I generally limit myself to 500 meters, because that is currently the length of the local range that I shoot at. I know how easy it is to miss at 500 meters, so I limit my shots on game animals to that distance.
As for seeing one person at the range trying to learn, it's more a case of seeing dozens of people showing up at the local range that don't feel that they have anything to learn, because they bought a heavy barreled rifle, and a scope with turrets or a BDC reticle, and they watch the long range shooting programs on television, that have taught them all that they need to know.
Over the years , I have been helped to get many people into shooting, and I am still helping a few at this time. Anytime someone asks for help, I do what I can, from mounting scopes, to adjusting triggers, to teaching people to reload, or teaching them how to clean their guns,to helping them sight in, to teaching them trajectories of loads, to teaching people to shoot trap and skeet. I volunteer my time as an RSO at the local range, and I am serving on the executive for the local club, so I consider myself to be doing what I can for the local club, and for the local shooters.
However, when people show up at the range, and obviously don't know what they are doing, and they don't want any help, all that I can do is my duty as an RSO to see that nobody get's hurt, and wonder just how many animals these people will wound when they take shots that they obviously don't have the skills to make. I respect the animals that I hunt, and I hate seeing people wound them, because these people really have no idea about long range shooting, and are living in a fantasy world because they watch too much long range shooting on television.
On the other hand, I took great enjoyment when two friends that I helped get into hunting and shooting this year, went on their first hunts. One killed a nice whitetail buck, and one killed a nice bull moose, and both were one shot kills, that were well within the shooter's ability.

[pikergolf]

here is a nice food shot as Boone and Crockett does not count when its food(elk)

ps .. take the Long Range school if you want Rob Furlong(2657yds) will teach you

this type of hunting was done in the 1800's(black powder 1760yds) and i did some in the 1970's and its not going any where

enjoy all

David :)

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Long+Range+Shooting+for+a+novice&view=detail&mid=007DFE06560B337398E3007DFE06560B337398E3&first=21&FORM=NVPFVR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyj_A19Zo30

Hmmm... Two video's, first one they are shooting at a coyote with a farm behind it.

Second, they set out to shoot an animal at over 1200yds, this is not hunting by any stretch of the imagination. I have no respect for anyone that sets out to shoot an animal at that range, it's disgusting actually.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Hmmm... Two video's, first one they are shooting at a coyote with a farm behind it.


Yah that coyote should have been given a free pass....frozen ground and that bullet could skip a long ways....

LC

[catnthehat]

Yes, my hunter found his twig as well this fall. It's amazing the small branch could deflect a .338 round by almost 2 feet in just 30 yards. But he would have also sworn on a stack of bibles it was true. Perhaps a high iron content gave those particular twigs some stronger properties :)

Perhaps a strong branch with the intended target 200 yards beyond said branch, I'd buy that. I'm afraid many shots would have infact missed whether the "twig" was there or not :(

A person would be surprised to know just how small a branch it takes to deflect bullets.

There have been many studies done to debunk the myth of "brush buster" cartridges, and they will all deflect from even a small branch.
Cat

[Speckle55]

Hmmm... Two video's, first one they are shooting at a coyote with a farm behind it.

Second, they set out to shoot an animal at over 1200yds, this is not hunting by any stretch of the imagination. I have no respect for anyone that sets out to shoot an animal at that range, it's disgusting actually.

thanks for your opinion.. the buffalo Runners/hunters wipe them off North America just about

History

David

[elkhunter11]

Yah that coyote should have been given a free pass....frozen ground and that bullet could skip a long ways..

+1 Not very smart to take that shot with a farm yard right behind it.

[pikergolf]

thanks for your opinion.. the buffalo Runners/hunters wipe them off North America just about

History

David

The hide hunters shot at that range so they didn't spook the buffalo, they weren't interested in the meat so they didn't care if they killed them outright or not. They just kept shooting till the herd scattered and then picked off the wounded ones when they got close enough. Not really the same as modern hunting.

[Speckle55]

For one, I don't claim to be a long range specialist, I generally limit myself to 500 meters, because that is currently the length of the local range that I shoot at. I know how easy it is to miss at 500 meters, so I limit my shots on game animals to that distance.
As for seeing one person at the range trying to learn, it's more a case of seeing dozens of people showing up at the local range that don't feel that they have anything to learn, because they bought a heavy barreled rifle, and a scope with turrets or a BDC reticle, and they watch the long range shooting programs on television, that have taught them all that they need to know.
Over the years , I have been helped to get many people into shooting, and I am still helping a few at this time. Anytime someone asks for help, I do what I can, from mounting scopes, to adjusting triggers, to teaching people to reload, or teaching them how to clean their guns,to helping them sight in, to teaching them trajectories of loads, to teaching people to shoot trap and skeet. I volunteer my time as an RSO at the local range, and I am serving on the executive for the local club, so I consider myself to be doing what I can for the local club, and for the local shooters.
However, when people show up at the range, and obviously don't know what they are doing, and they don't want any help, all that I can do is my duty as an RSO to see that nobody get's hurt, and wonder just how many animals these people will wound when they take shots that they obviously don't have the skills to make. I respect the animals that I hunt, and I hate seeing people wound them, because these people really have no idea about long range shooting, and are living in a fantasy world because they watch too much long range shooting on television.
On the other hand, I took great enjoyment when two friends that I helped get into hunting and shooting this year, went on their first hunts. One killed a nice whitetail buck, and one killed a nice bull moose, and both were one shot kills, that were well within the shooter's ability.

good for you at your range .. these people who go around shooting at long range on animals and missing .. they tell you that they have missed at long ranges and they tell you that they missed at 75 yards or are you assuming that they would take long range shots

just wondering where you get your info because i do the same out here and don,t get told much .. but some of the boys are gonging 1600 meters here

and sorry about saying that you are negative in your post it may be just me

David:)

[elkhunter11]

The hide hunters shot at that range so they didn't spook the buffalo, they weren't interested in the meat so they didn't care if they killed them outright or not. They just kept shooting till the herd scattered and then picked off the wounded ones when they got close enough. Not really the same as modern hunting.

+1 Not that I am a fan of Chuckhawks, but even then, most sources list the common shooting distances as far less than 1200 yards.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/buffalo_cartridges.htm

And plenty of killing power was needed, for the American bison is a very big bovine, considerably larger than the average African Cape buffalo. Fortunately, while they can indeed be dangerous to humans, the bison does not have the malevolent disposition of his distant African cousin. The buffalo runners of the West simply stayed out of reach of the big beasts, usually shooting from a rest at ranges around 200 yards and sometimes more.

[elkhunter11]

good for you at your range .. these people who go around shooting at long range on animals and missing .. they tell you that they have missed at long ranges and they tell you that they missed at 75 yards or are you assuming that they would take long range shots

Some brag at the range that they are good to 500 yards or more on game animals. While I was at the range, one character sighted in his gun at 25 yards, then told his partner that any deer within 700 yards would be easy pickings for him, with his new gun. Others return from hunts bragging about 500+ yard shots on game, then other people that were on the trip mentioned the animals that they wounded and lost before filling their tags. One pair from my shop brought home two antlerless elk, but lost two more by attempting shots that they didn't have the skills to make. They didn't seem to care about losing the wounded elk, as long as they filled their tags.

just wondering where you get your info because i do the same out here and don,t get told much .. but some of the boys are gonging 1600 meters here

We often shoots clays off of the berm at 500 meters. Many people brag about hitting them, but they usually don't mention how many shots it took to actually hit one. It's not that hard to walk shots into a target at longer range, but it's much harder to hit with the first shot from a hunting position.

[Speckle55]

Hmmm... Two video's, first one they are shooting at a coyote with a farm behind it.

Second, they set out to shoot an animal at over 1200yds, this is not hunting by any stretch of the imagination. I have no respect for anyone that sets out to shoot an animal at that range, it's disgusting actually.

its his farm as he calls the other guy Dartman the neighbor

imo

David:)

[Lefty-Canuck]

its his farm as he calls the other guy Dartman the neighbor

imo

David:)

Sorry David....but no matter who owns it, not a shot I would Opt for....unless you know these guys who did the video personally I think you would have to agree with that too.

LC

[Speckle55]

Some brag at the range that they are good to 500 yards or more on game animals. While I was at the range, one character sighted in his gun at 25 yards, then told his partner that any deer within 700 yards would be easy pickings for him, with his new gun. Others return from hunts bragging about 500+ yard shots on game, then other people that were on the trip mentioned the animals that they wounded and lost before filling their tags. One pair from my shop brought home two antlerless elk, but lost two more by attempting shots that they didn't have the skills to make. They didn't seem to care about losing the wounded elk, as long as they filled their tags.

one guy at the mill here told some stories that were the best i ever heard ..

A guide out here is the best BS er out here even his wife can't get him to stop

a young hunter told me that the pic was his Deer this year .. it wasn't his wasn,t even there he was just going to butcher it

i could assume allot if i listen to all the BS .. but i take it with a grain of salt and realize that is all it is..

talk

some hunters /shooter's/Angler's never leave thier computers

Food for Thought

David:)

[elkhunter11]

one guy at the mill here told some stories that were the best i ever heard ..

A guide out here is the best BS er out here even his wife can't get him to stop

a young hunter told me that the pic was his Deer this year .. it wasn't his wasn,t even there he was just going to butcher it

i could assume allot if i listen to all the BS .. but i take it with a grain of salt and realize that is all it is..

talk

some hunters /shooter's/Angler's never leave thier computers

Food for Thought

I work with these people every day, and I know them quite well, the person that mentioned the two wounded elk actually helped look for them, and is a good friend whose word I happen to trust.

[Speckle55]

Sorry David....but no matter who owns it, not a shot I would Opt for....unless you know these guys who did the video personally I think you would have to agree with that too.

LC

Your opinion not his

they did it last week so he is comfortable doing that shot and he is on private land with Dartman..

nice shot though .. the head shot.. i think i could do that with the 243 on a quite day their scope

David:)

[elkhunter11]

Your opinion not his

Not mine either, I wouldn't purposely shoot toward a farm yard, and I certainly would not post videos of myself doing so, so other internet warriors get the idea that it is okay to do so. As well it gives the anti gun people more ammunition to use against hunters if we are portrayed as being reckless and unsafe.