wasting fish?

[Frans]

Yesterday I took the kids for a swim at the Ghost Reservoir (cold!). A fellar was fishing, with a three hook set-up, two baited with with worms and one with a (dead) bait fish.

Just before we leave he actually catches one. He takes a while to get off his seat to start dealing with the fish, of which he kept the head out off the water. The fish had taken the bait fish and swallowed it good. We put our stuff in the truck, I see the guy is struggling with the fish, there is blood all over. Just as we're about to drive off when my sun tells me the guy threw the dead fish back into the water.

So I go and take a look, and start a brief chat... "I put him back" was his comment. The obviously dead fish was floating 30 feet out, belly up.

With hunting there are rules against wasting the meat. How about with fishing? Are you obliged to keep fish that you obviously killed? Or is it OK to just throw them away? I was pretty disgusted with the guy's lack of skills to deal with a deeply-hooked fish and his attitude towards his catch.

Frans

[SouthAltaHunter]

Thats sucks, but it happens alot. The worst is watching guys fish for pike at some of the southern resevoirs (namely Rattlesnake) at the spillway. They bottom fish with big pike rigs, treble hooks and catch a pike. Then they reel it it, pull it up on the gravel or rocks 10 feet, walk back to there truck and grab a tape measure only to find out that the fish is under the 63cm mark, then proceed to do surgery to remove the hooks. Well this can turn into a 5 minute eposode, before the fish is released. Bleeding out of the gills ect. Not that I am by any means a biologist, but if some of these guys were allowed to keep a few pike under 63cm maybe the fishing would be better over time, as they would not have to catch so many fish to get there limit. Im sure that alot of guys in the south still are mainly catch & keep fishermen, and on Rattlesnake they might have to catch 30 pike to get there limit of 3. Im not trying to sound like a whiner catch & release fisherman, as I like to eat fish to, but man it is pretty sick to see some people's fish ethics somedays.

[beermilk]

I cant be sure but as far as i know that guy would get in a whole lot more trouble if he kept a fish under the limit. Is it ethical to throw back a fish that is bleeding and is going to die. no. but it is the law that you cannot keep any fish under the size limit. so what do you do. keep the fish and get a fine or throw it back?

[Grizzled]

Guy's like that should be fined..not much "surgery" required with barbless hooks...and when real deep ..cut the line..save the fish.

[Sbrooks]

If it is a Catch and Release stream and the fish is hooked bad and is going to probably die, you still HAVE to put him back.

Why??? Because any idiot could say "well I hooked him badly so I kept him"

Rules are Rules....

[BigA]

If it is a Catch and Release stream and the fish is hooked bad and is going to probably die, you still HAVE to put him back.

Why??? Because any idiot could say "well I hooked him badly so I kept him"

Rules are Rules....

The same applies to species that have 0 catch limits (Bulls, Sturgeon, Walleyes in some spots). If you hook into a bull trout and it perish's in the process of releasing it from the hooks, it must be put back. Even if it will not survive.

[moosehunter3-0]

Guy's like that should be fined..not much "surgery" required with barbless hooks...and when real deep ..cut the line..save the fish.

Wouldnt a fish die if it swallowed a hook and you just cut the line? I dont believe the theory that fish can just dissolve hooks in a few days. Once I caught a 22" rainbow that had a really old/rusted streamer in its mouth and pike are always caught with old hooks in their beaks..

[redneck posse]

i don't know i think i would rather keep the fish and hope you get a F&W officer thats not to unresonable than put it back to die any way. why waste the meat by throwing it back.

[BigIrv]

I called the Fish and Wildlife office this spring to ask a few questions regarding's regulations for fishing. One of my questions was if I catch a fish and it is very badly hurt and/or bleeding from the hook or fight do I still throw them back? The answer was yes. The only other thing he said was if the hook is embedded in the gills very badly to just cut off the hook and let
the fish go as is.

On that note, I pulled a jack from Coal on sunday and it had an old treble hook and a leader still in its mouth. Good and rust, looked like the mouth was getting a bit infected too. Anyway the old hook (and mine) came out quite easliy and he swam away without any extra metal this time.
:wave:

[Marlin07]

Rules are rules I guess, but in the same breath why fish with treble hooks, bait and what not when there is a min. size? if there are requirements for min safety equipment in boats and you gotta wear a seat belt on the drive to the lake, than way don't you have to have the bare minimum equipment on hand to release a fish properly? Not that i would like to see the man telling me what i require in my tackle box but let's use the resource and not waste it...

[pecker]

i don't know i think i would rather keep the fish and hope you get a F&W officer thats not to unresonable than put it back to die any way. why waste the meat by throwing it back.

a couple weeks ago my son in law caught a 61 cm. pike at clear lake. he was using a rapela with 2 treble hooks , my daughter helped him net it. well you know what a thrashing pike with 2 trebles in him can do to a fine mesh nylon net .we quickly measured him and knew we had to get him back in soon as possible. it took a while to get him out of that mess. i held him in the water by the tail for a couple minutes before he responded and SLOWLY swam away. a few minutes later he was belly up.dambed if you do-- dambed if you don't. i hope at least a pelican got him. :cry::wave:

[dodger]

I really hate treble hooks!!! I have cut off one of the hooks on all of my lures leaving two hooks, and when my buddy is fishing with me and using his lures with the treble hook intact I still catch the same amount as him. Even my Rapalas with the dual hooks are an easy release for the Pike and I rarely even have to bring the fish into the boat. 75% of the fish hooked can be released while there in the water.
My $0.02 worth.
Dodger.

[pecker]

I really hate treble hooks!!! I have cut off one of the hooks on all of my lures leaving two hooks, and when my buddy is fishing with me and using his lures with the treble hook intact I still catch the same amount as him. Even my Rapalas with the dual hooks are an easy release for the Pike and I rarely even have to bring the fish into the boat. 75% of the fish hooked can be released while there in the water.
My $0.02 worth.
Dodger.

:huh: leaving 2 trebles or 2 hooks:confused:

[dodger]

All of my treble hooks have one hook cut off leaving the remaining two. It makes for an easy easy release.
Dodger.

[pecker]

All of my treble hooks have one hook cut off leaving the remaining two. It makes for an easy easy release.
Dodger.

thanks for clarifying that dodger , makes sense i'll have to try that . maybe even one might be an option . i sure like the rapalas & rattlin' raps . thanks again.

[Grizzly Adams]

I often wonder how many fish actually survive "catch and release " fishing. The idea seems to be that you should at least have a chance to catch a fish, any fish.:D Seeems terribly wasteful to me and only in fishing do you have the option of throwing back any quarry, that doesn't meet the legal criteria. Maybe we should be looking at some other means to control catches.
Grizz

[BBJTKLE&FISHINGADVENTURES]

Yesterday I took the kids for a swim at the Ghost Reservoir (cold!). A fellar was fishing, with a three hook set-up, two baited with with worms and one with a (dead) bait fish.

Just before we leave he actually catches one. He takes a while to get off his seat to start dealing with the fish, of which he kept the head out off the water. The fish had taken the bait fish and swallowed it good. We put our stuff in the truck, I see the guy is struggling with the fish, there is blood all over. Just as we're about to drive off when my sun tells me the guy threw the dead fish back into the water.

So I go and take a look, and start a brief chat... "I put him back" was his comment. The obviously dead fish was floating 30 feet out, belly up.

With hunting there are rules against wasting the meat. How about with fishing? Are you obliged to keep fish that you obviously killed? Or is it OK to just throw them away? I was pretty disgusted with the guy's lack of skills to deal with a deeply-hooked fish and his attitude towards his catch.

Frans

Its unfortunate , this crap happens all the time , people going out and not having the proper know how or equipment to remove that deeply lodged hook or just simply cut the line as close to the hook and release the fish . But if the fish is say under size or wrong species to be caught , you still have to toss it back even thought the chance its going to die is very high. But between larger fish and the birds they make quick work of it , that's the way it works , Its sad but you do your best and not preforming a quadruple bypass operation here .

[Jamie Black R/T]

well you know what a thrashing pike with 2 trebles in him can do to a fine mesh nylon net

been there....done that

black rubber mesh is your friend...they should'nt even sell the nylon crap anymore

[Dr. Fish]

Can you imagine how many fish would be hooked in the gills if that meant you could retain them, man I already know people that claim every large fish they catch is badly hooked because they refuse to let the large ones go.

The terrible reality of it is that alot of people just dont have the skills and tools that is takes to properly catch and realease fish. Can you imagine trying to deal with deeply hooked pike with no mouth spreaders!

To properly handle and release fish a person should have a rubber mesh net, fish handling gloves (I think made by normark), decent needle nose pliers, mouth spreaders, hook de-gorger, and if after large prey possibly a cradle.

Its sad but poor catch and realease happens everywere from the old guy sitting on shore to the punk that thinks the hammer handle pike is a football.
I think this is one issue that will get better with time but is also unavoidable with current regulations.

[fishman]

I guess it is one small step at a time.........first teach them catch and release......then teach them how to release them...........don't you think they should go hand and hand but nooooooooo it is always one step at a time we are heading in the right direction, just at a slow pace.


I lve in central alberta or i guess the gateway to the north....i have to deal with fish pigs....keep everything they catch and go over your limit........what are rules.............keep bull trout........fish with live bait..........ohh ya dolberg lake i am a shore fisherman they say and this is my dock u boater get the hell off of it and ohhhhhhhhh yaaaaa i own the first 150 feet of the water in front of me so don't dare driving your boat in front of it................IGNORANT STUPID PEOPLE SHOULD BE SHOT WITH A BALL OF **** THE HUNG FOR STINKING..................i am fortuant that i have enough bodies of water i can get away from the stupid people.


I have report so many people at swan lake and to see nothing happen erks me.........one guy made 5 trips home with his limit.........i had a guy get mad at me for releasing about a 6# fish in front of him.....he said to me that was rude you could have gave me the fish...........my answer was i caught the fish i will do what ever i want with it and putting it back was my way.........not like you fish mongers who kill everything and have no idea what u r doing to the balance of nature as long as thier is enough for you secrew everybody else.....................man he was choked i finally had to tell him to f--k off and grow up.........and while we are at it when i see older people who figure the law doesn't pretain to them.......i fought in the war for this country i can do whatever i want...............if this was so they would see the big picture and think about others and not just about themselfs...........theres my rant........lol

[Waxy]

It's a sad reality that common sense and doing what's right is often punished more harshly than not having any common sense and doing wrong. Keep that fish because you don't want to waste the meat, and you'll face a large fine. It's a no win situation, and I don't think the guys at SRD are any happier about it than you or I. Unfortunately, a zero tolerance policy is the only way they can enforce the rules.

There's a recurring theme in this thread - TREBLE HOOKS. To my mind, they should be illegal, the same way barbs are illegal, on any waters where size limits or catch and release only designations are in place. It is next to impossible to effectively release a fish caught using treble hooks. I replace treble hooks with single hooks on all my spoons and crankbaits. I connect on a few less bites, but I'm also able to quickly and easily release the fish.

I think it comes down to educating anglers, and everyone making a conscious effort to fish in the least harmful way they can.

Waxy

[winged1]

Now you've got me all feeling kind of ******ed. I honestly thought that trebles where outlawed and have replaced all of mine with barbless singles. Must have been my trip to BC that got that into my mind.

Anyway, I haven't reduced the satisfaction on any fishing outing.

Cool, re tard ed is a banned word.

[Tredeb]

Snip... .ohh ya dolberg lake i am a shore fisherman they say and this is my dock u boater get the hell off of it and ohhhhhhhhh yaaaaa i own the first 150 feet of the water in front of me so don't dare driving your boat in front of it ... snip

I inquired about the rights of land owners once and I was told that they only own the land up to the high water mark or the pemanent vegetation. So essentially, if you can walk in the water or on the beach to get there, you can fish right in front of their cabin and tell them to pound sand (that is an awful pun but I couldn't resist).

Back on topic, kind of, What does everyone think of the reversed regs. in Saskatchewan. What if we could keep 2 or 3 walleye only one being over 50cm. That would reduce the waste.

It seems to me that Alberta regs allow the spawners to be harvested while the Sask regs would protect the spawners more but may limit the fish that become spawners. Maybe the regs are right in each province when you look at the fishing pressure that some of the Alberta lakes are under as compared to Sask Lakes. I would venture to say that there are lakes in Alberta that see more traffic and pressure on a long weekend than some similar sized lakes in Sask see in a year. Maybe that is why we have different regs.

It would be interesting to read some studies on either approach.

Does anyone have information as to the amount of spawners it takes to maintain a population. Also, I seem to recall a thread commenting on stunted perch in Cow lake due to population density.

[pecker]

been there....done that

black rubber mesh is your friend...they should'nt even sell the nylon crap anymore

it's on my shopping list . thanks . :wave:

[Tako]

Reason number one that "Pickerel rigs" (aka Ni**er fishing) should be made illegal.

[packhuntr]

Tako, hey so i suppose you also think slip bobber set ups should be banned. How about jigs tipped with any type of bait??? There are a thousand presentations out there that can utilize bait, how could any of this possibly be an equipment related issue. Come on man. The issues lie with the people using the resources without first getting the knowledge needed to assure the safety and future of it.

All anglers that buy licences should have to provide proof of the fishing education program in Alberta. Oh, and the program should be made much more intensive than it currently is (if it even still exists??).

One more thing, fish scales(weight devises) should ALL be banned!! They have no place in tackle boxes..... Use a tape measure, better yet, build a quality bump board. Spread the word, scales have no place in fishing today.

[Waxy]

Tako, hey so i suppose you also think slip bobber set ups should be banned. How about jigs tipped with any type of bait??? There are a thousand presentations out there that can utilize bait, how could any of this possibly be an equipment related issue. Come on man. The issues lie with the people using the resources without first getting the knowledge needed to assure the safety and future of it.

I'm not a big fan of pickeral rigs either, but I gotta agree with packhuntr.

Some presentations are definitely less C&R friendly than others, but ultimately, it's the angler that determines the success of the release. I don't like the idea of the slippery slope that banning certain techniques represents - next thing you know, all C&R will be illegal like in some European countries.

One more thing, fish scales(weight devises) should ALL be banned!! They have no place in tackle boxes..... Use a tape measure, better yet, build a quality bump board. Spread the word, scales have no place in fishing today.

I use mine once or twice a day, and I will continue to do so.

Much like slip bobber rigs, jigs tipped with live bait, etc..., I don't think it causes any unnecessary harm when done properly and carefully. It's all about the angler, not the equipment, right? ;) :D

Waxy

[chuck0039]

To properly handle and release fish a person should have a rubber mesh net, fish handling gloves (I think made by normark), decent needle nose pliers, mouth spreaders, hook de-gorger, and if after large prey possibly a cradle.


What is a hook de-gorger?:huh: I have never heard of this before. I do argee that everything else listed above should be found in every boat or tackle box.

[Waxy]

Whoops, repost.

[pecker]

What is a hook de-gorger?:huh: I have never heard of this before. I do argee that everything else listed above should be found in every boat or tackle box.

curved, long-nosed , locking hemostats , the best addition to my tackle box ever. :wave:

[Dr. Fish]

What is a hook de-gorger?:huh: I have never heard of this before. I do argee that everything else listed above should be found in every boat or tackle box.

Its used for when a fish has the hook swallowed, its basically a peice of red plastic with a ball like device on both ends with a slot for the line. You put line in the slot and then keep the line tight while pushing the hook down and then turning. This allows the "ball end" to cover the hook and then you simply twist and pull the hook out with minimal damage to the fish. Sometimes it allows you to release the fish is so desired.

I bought mine at Canadian Tire and have also seen them at Wholesale, they are cheap and with a little practice are quite usefull. Sorry if my description is poor but I'm not sure how else to describe it. If i can I will find and post a pic.

[chuck0039]

thanks never heard of that before, I will have to go to canadian tire to look into purchasing one.

[Tundra Monkey]

No to pickeral rigs and still fishing??? Does that mean ice fishing is out as well??

Whatya mean no scales? Take a couple measurements and let em go? Sorry man....fishin for monsters and I wanna know the weight......mine goes to a 100lb's.....only been past 50 twice and bottomed out once.....yes we have large laker's up here. It was bottomed out on a trout that came out of the nets in Lutselke...so call it 105lbs. World record at the time was 76 and change from not too far down the lake.....I believe it's 78 and change now out of Great Bear.

I would sure feel like a dumb azz if I showed up with exact measurements of a fish that turned out to be a new world record :tongue2:

tm

[Tako]

No. The method does matter more than the bait. Using bait will cause higher mortality. No arguments there, I would hope.

The problem with pickerel rigs is that it is an "inactive" method of fishing. It is DESIGNED to have the fish swallow the bait, hook and line. Therefore, once you hear the bell, run over and actaully set the hook, the fish has the hook so far in it's stomach or throat, it's fairly impossible to get it out without killing them.

"Active" fishing methods, such as fly, spoon, spinner or even jig fishing, require an immediate hookset in most cases, or the fish gets away. An active hookset will result in the fish being hooked in the mouth or lip, requiring less handling time and damage to the fish itself.

How many times will you see a fish gut hooked by a fly? In my time, I've done it once, and it was because I wasn't paying attention and allowed the fish to swallow the fly (ridiculously uncommon).

That being said, most anglers in Alberta want to whack and stack their favourite fish, so they want to use the most lethal method of fishing, a pickerel rig. C&R fishing with a pickerel rig is basically pointless. C&R icefishing in sub zero temps is also basically pointless unless in a heated tent. The fish die during handling. #1 cause of fish mortality is not hooking, it's handling. Squeezing fish, pulling hooks out of gills and throats, dropping fish, wearing gloves. It all adds to fish mortality. And it all boils down to respecting the fish. But hey, now I'm banging on the door of the ethics nazis again. Not my call.

Coming from BC, the idea of a pickerel rig is so foreign it really doesn't make sense to me, because it's so ineffective (really, try a spinner some time, you'll be amazed at how high your catch rates go).

Go ahead, rip me to pieces

[Jester]

Go ahead, rip me to pieces

Nope....that was a great post and no need to rip on you.Except you forgot to mention slipbobbers..

Yes they do catch fish....often deeply hooked.

I'm guilty..:o

[Tako]

I should also mention (before anyone screams purist flyfisher) that I've been bouncing worms off the bottom of the Peace for goldeye for the last month.

[Waxy]

No. The method does matter more than the bait. Using bait will cause higher mortality. No arguments there, I would hope.

The problem with pickerel rigs is that it is an "inactive" method of fishing. It is DESIGNED to have the fish swallow the bait, hook and line. Therefore, once you hear the bell, run over and actaully set the hook, the fish has the hook so far in it's stomach or throat, it's fairly impossible to get it out without killing them.

"Active" fishing methods, such as fly, spoon, spinner or even jig fishing, require an immediate hookset in most cases, or the fish gets away. An active hookset will result in the fish being hooked in the mouth or lip, requiring less handling time and damage to the fish itself.

How many times will you see a fish gut hooked by a fly? In my time, I've done it once, and it was because I wasn't paying attention and allowed the fish to swallow the fly (ridiculously uncommon).

That being said, most anglers in Alberta want to whack and stack their favourite fish, so they want to use the most lethal method of fishing, a pickerel rig. C&R fishing with a pickerel rig is basically pointless. C&R icefishing in sub zero temps is also basically pointless unless in a heated tent. The fish die during handling. #1 cause of fish mortality is not hooking, it's handling. Squeezing fish, pulling hooks out of gills and throats, dropping fish, wearing gloves. It all adds to fish mortality. And it all boils down to respecting the fish. But hey, now I'm banging on the door of the ethics nazis again. Not my call.

Coming from BC, the idea of a pickerel rig is so foreign it really doesn't make sense to me, because it's so ineffective (really, try a spinner some time, you'll be amazed at how high your catch rates go).

Go ahead, rip me to pieces

No ripping here, just kudos. Great post.

There's only a couple reasons I can think of to fish a pickerel rig, and neither of them is flattering to the angler - laziness and a lack of skill. If you combine those two attributes with a person that only fishes to fill the freezer, then maybe a pickerel rig is the presentation of choice. There's no challenge to it, certainly no skill involved, and it's boring. It's also usually a pretty ineffective method compared to everything else that's available.

There are a number of very effective techniques out there - slip bobbing and lindy rigging being the prime ones - where the intent of the technique is get the fish to swallow the bait and hook. Using small barbless hooks, these fish can be successfully released the vast majority of times, but it does inherently lead to a percentage of deeply hooked fish that can't be released with any expectation of their survival. As a result, these techniques are last resorts for me on C&R lakes, I would hope most people would feel the same way.

It does come down to the angler respecting and valuing the resource and adjusting their practices accordingly. We've come along way as a group, but there's no doubt we still have a long way to go.

Waxy

[Map Maker]

Back to the original discussion of wasting fish.

Frans, did you know that Fisheries fills put&take lakes full of trout, only to know that the fish will not make it thru the winter and will all die because of lack of oxygen?
Is that waste?

I do agree, it would be great if we can all dehook fish so they all survive but fish do die, but fish die all the time and they do give their nutrients back to the lake. Nature never wastes anything.

The only reason I am pointing this out is that you were bummed out by this guys actions and then you most likely bummed him out by your reaction. And this is just after both of you were enjoying Alberta nature's which is the whole point of getting out.

To me, if you see something illegal, report it. but if someone does something that rubs you wrong, just keep it to yourself and teach your children your way accordingly.

[slug]

i agree that poor handling is the major cause of fish mortality ,it is sad what you will see on some of the docks.and the common thought amongst most of them is "its only a jack the lakes polluted with them" or "who cares,its only a fish", well i care.when i am fishing 90% of the time i have my children with me(one is 4 the other 7),both are die hard fishermen (well one is fishergirl),i try to teach them right from wrong so i am very proud of them when they point out that someone did something wrong,and they dont miss much.if they see someone caught a fish they are right there with my net,pliers and side cutters right away to help anybody land and release their catch,there pretty good at it too.i believe that fishing and hunting is a resource that is only ours to borrow ,manage it correctly and pass it on to our kids and hopefully they have learned from all of us how to do the same.

just my opinion.

[BBJTKLE&FISHINGADVENTURES]

i agree that poor handling is the major cause of fish mortality ,it is sad what you will see on some of the docks.and the common thought amongst most of them is "its only a jack the lakes polluted with them" or "who cares,its only a fish", well i care.when i am fishing 90% of the time i have my children with me(one is 4 the other 7),both are die hard fishermen (well one is fishergirl),i try to teach them right from wrong so i am very proud of them when they point out that someone did something wrong,and they dont miss much.if they see someone caught a fish they are right there with my net,pliers and side cutters right away to help anybody land and release their catch,there pretty good at it too.i believe that fishing and hunting is a resource that is only ours to borrow ,manage it correctly and pass it on to our kids and hopefully they have learned from all of us how to do the same.

just my opinion.

Agreed with the last two posts .Very well said . There's way to limit fish mortality , but nature is a nasty thing as long as you respect her , ( I say her cus shes moody I know this will win bonus points from the women ) anyway Nature takes its course. A life cycle if you will. There's no difference in say A fishermen gut hooking a fish and it swimming off or a miss placed shot on a deer or any animal . Things happen and yes there's way to prevent it from happening but , not everyone has the same thinking or thoughts. And I think that Slug that you showing you kids the proper way to handle a fish is awesome . Its very impressive that they want to help others as well. There's lots of people who do things the safe humane proper way but then there's many who couldn't give a cats ass . So to all who respect our wonderful gift , our enviroment , and doing things to what benefits both with least damage I tip my hat and thank you .