We got a new Albertan... named Khadr...

[Big Daddy Badger]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/omar-khadr-moved-to-edmonton-prison-after-months-in-solitary-confinement/article12226347/

[TomCanuck]

He's not an Albertan, just a POS federal inmate.

[Big Daddy Badger]

He's not an Albertan, just a POS federal inmate.

Or a young man that was vivctimiosed first by his family and then us when he was forced to become a boy soldier.


Its funny how in this day and age.... we have less compassion and understanding for this than we did while dealing with Hitler youth after WWII.
We treat dedicated adult criminals better than we treated that 15 year old boy who had been brain washed by his family.

[Fishnafterwork]

Interesting take... I wouldn't have thought of it this was had you not pointed this out..

[Okotokian]

Interestingly there are many programs and charities to help former "child soldiers" in Africa. We seem to have sympathy for them. Seems a bit of a double standard, based on who the child fought for.

[TomCanuck]

Or a young man that was vivctimiosed first by his family and then us when he was forced to become a boy soldier.


Its funny how in this day and age.... we have less compassion and understanding for this than we did while dealing with Hitler youth after WWII.
We treat dedicated adult criminals better than we treated that 15 year old boy who had been brain washed by his family.

I'll save my compassion for the friends and family of the NATO soldier he murdered in Afghanistan.

[CaberTosser]

Or a young man that was vivctimiosed first by his family and then us when he was forced to become a boy soldier.


Its funny how in this day and age.... we have less compassion and understanding for this than we did while dealing with Hitler youth after WWII.
We treat dedicated adult criminals better than we treated that 15 year old boy who had been brain washed by his family.


The thing is that his parents were probably brainwashed themselves as kids by their parents, but we would hold them to higher standards as adults despite also having been indoctrinated from a similar early age. Same thing if Khadr was 20 when he chucked that grenade. I don't know if its possible to un-teach the crap that goes through his brain, and quite frankly I don't want him released. That suffering he goes through in prison is on him and his parents for what they did, not us for catching him and seeking justice. I see no difference between his traveling from Canada to kill US soldiers in the Middle East than if he drove to a border crossing and killed US border guards in their customs booth; it was then and remains now an utterly wrong criminal act.

We also convict pedophiles who travel abroad to commit their crimes, it seems murder is certainly another thing for which that is suitable. He knew better and convinced himself otherwise.

[Big Daddy Badger]

The thing is that his parents were probably brainwashed themselves as kids by their parents, but we would hold them to higher standards as adults despite also having been indoctrinated from a similar early age. Same thing if Khadr was 20 when he chucked that grenade. I don't know if its possible to un-teach the crap that goes through his brain, and quite frankly I don't want him released. That suffering he goes through in prison is on him and his parents for what they did, not us for catching him and seeking justice. I see no difference between his traveling from Canada to kill US soldiers in the Middle East than if he drove to a border crossing and killed US border guards in their customs booth; it was then and remains now an utterly wrong criminal act.

We also convict pedophiles who travel abroad to commit their crimes, it seems murder is certainly another thing for which that is suitable. He knew better and convinced himself otherwise.

Well we managed to take brain washed Hitler Youth and turn them into good Canadians.
Many of whom served in our Military in places like Korea.

I just find it difficlut to undertsnad that Canada was unique in the way we brushed our hand of our citisens.
We allowed a youth to be tortured and then left him to rot in prison for longer than most adult murders in Canada.
Like it or not... he ws engaged in war.... and wht he did was not murder any more than it was murder being commited by the Americans that attacked that compound.

[Scott N]

I'll save my compassion for the friends and family of the NATO soldier he murdered in Afghanistan.

X2

[recce43]

traiter to canada treason plus murder oh and by the way Hitler youth where not canadian when the fought for germany

[Big Daddy Badger]

I'll save my compassion for the friends and family of the NATO soldier he murdered in Afghanistan.

It was war... he was a soldier whether we like to admit it or not.
He wasn't a terrorist and the party he was with was attacked by other soldiers.
Being well trained he reacted... muscle memory.. as he had been conditioned to.
The same way other soldier react to stimulous... without thought or malice.

So.. if Omar Khadr is a murderer... so to... am I.

You really have no experience with child soldiers... I understand that.
But they are not like the thugs we see in prison and they are not evil or in control of their own actions.
They have been subjected to intense Pavlovian conditioning and desensitised.
Most are fightened and confused kids that really just want to be like other kids.

Once removed from the control of those who have stolen their youth most will rehabilitate to normalcy quite quickly.

We had an opportunity to rehabilitate him.
Now we have an enigma... he may carry on without bitterness and become productive but the odds ared now against that as he has had no normalcy or experienced any compassion through most of his life.

Its a wasted opportunity to recover a human being and one that we might well regret some day.

[Big Daddy Badger]

traiter to canada treason plus murder oh and by the way Hitler youth where not canadian when the fought for germany

Yes... and a very impressionable youth that was fed to the sharks by his own father.
How easy it seems to be for some people to pretend that he really had any choice in this.

[Ronji]

[QUOTE=pesky672;1983950]Or a young man that was vivctimiosed first by his family and then us when he was forced to become a boy soldier.


Its funny how in this day and age.... we have less compassion and understanding for this than we did while dealing with Hitler youth after WWII.

The brain washing that Hitler did to his youth movement was truly remarkable.
In my younger days, I worked with an individual who was in the Hitler youth. He still strongly followed and was more that willing to talk about the Nazi doctrine, and sadly and incredibly, still believed it. It bothered me then, and the Khadr situation bothers me now.

[TomCanuck]

It was war... he was a soldier whether we like to admit it or not.
He wasn't a terrorist and the party he was with was attacked by other soldiers.
Being well trained he reacted... muscle memory.. as he had been conditioned to.
The same way other soldier react to stimulous... without thought or malice.

So.. if Omar Khadr is a murderer... so to... am I.

You really have no experience with child soldiers... I understand that.
But they are not like the thugs we see in prison and they are not evil or in control of their own actions.
They have been subjected to intense Pavlovian conditioning and desensitised.
Most are fightened and confused kids that really just want to be like other kids.

Once removed from the control of those who have stolen their youth most will rehabilitate to normalcy quite quickly.

We had an opportunity to rehabilitate him.
Now we have an enigma... he may carry on without bitterness and become productive but the odds ared now against that as he has had no normalcy or experienced any compassion through most of his life.

Its a wasted opportunity to recover a human being and one that we might well regret some day.

Really, what armed forces did he belong to? He is a Canadian, he's certianly not a Canadian soldier. War is largely a dated concept. When's the last time war was actually declared by any country? Even actual soldiers as opposed to enemy combatants can be tried for things like treason.

What is the purpose of having compassion for a rabid dog? They are incompatable with society. They serve no purpose.

[Hunter1602]

Tom, my first reaction was probably something close to yours...
However, we forget how easy a young persons brain works. He was brought up in a home that provided radical beliefs and true hate of Western philosophy. He did what most children his age would do and followed his parents beliefs and direction. In 2009 I lost my best friend Sapper Steven Marshall in Afghanistan to someone's beliefs and hatred. I'm not a liberal, and I haven't forgotten what happened to my friend and never will. I used to be full of hate because of what happened. Reality is we need to open our eyes and see what the real problem is.. If I can try to understand, I'm sure you can try too.

[BGSH]

remember hes supirior :sHa_sarcasticlol:

[TomCanuck]

Hunter, sorry for the loss of your friend.

I don't hate Kadhr, but I don't much care for the idea of him walking the streets of Canada. It's not a dog's fault that it becomes rabid, but none the less, it can't be allowed in public. In my view, he is the human analogue of a rabid dog.

I don't hate him, I don't want him around.

[recce43]

release and deport back over seas

[ali#1]

I am not following the story where is he going to be going ?

[recce43]

edmonton max

[ali#1]

edmonton max

The military prison ?

[purgatory.sv]

He has been influced his whole life and it hasn’t ended.

I don’t think he will ever have a normal life he has to much baggage.

[purgatory.sv]

The military prison ?

no

[purgatory.sv]

Edmonton Institution

21611 Meridian Street
PO Box 2290
Edmonton, Alberta
T5J 3H7

[Sooner]

I dont hold any sympathy for his family, I am not sure i have any for Omar either. He was victimised by his family, that i agree with but he went or was sent there to fight, he threw the grenade and he has did time for his crime. Is this where it ends then? or does the million dollar lawsuit follow because the little canadian boy was wronged, wronged by who, his family yes but anything after the battle was reactionary to what he got caught doing. He did the crime and did the time. Sue your family. So will he be a upstanding canadian citizen from now on, walk away from his terrorist family or will we hear about poor Omar sometime down the road again. Time will tell the Omar story, I hope its a good ending.

[sailor]

I am sure he is going to work on rigs.

[Rusty P. Bucket]

He isn't an Albertan, and neither is anyone that thinks he is, in my scholarly opinion.

"American Sniper" by Chris Kyle is recommended reading for the intellectual sportsman. Mr. Kyle killed around 168 animals just like Omar and he makes no bones about calling them 'animals'. Khadr has committed crimes against us and his own people and should be put down like the cur he is. So should most of his family, for that matter. At the very least, these swine should not be allowed in any civilized country.

My feeling is that at the rate we are going, we are going to have feral apes chasing real people down and beheading them in the streets like they do in London. We need to re-evaluate our immigration policy...and our stance on licensed concealed carry as well.

[just_dave]

Please! Please! Don't let the family follow him here. eww.

If that terrorist murderer is ever released he'll probably take out the very people that released him first.

[unclebuck]

Bacon & eggs for breakfast!!!! Hocks & kraut for supper. No likey, eat manure. He might meet allah sooner than he expected.

[cccan]

He will be going to U of A on government shirt tails no doubt.

[Peace786]

Objectively thinking, the treatment of this teen is a parody of justice in broad daylight for an audience and spectators that have been blinded by their routine, monotonous and busy life that robs them of the time to give these events any serious and just thought.

Interesting that how the media has changed the perception of the general public into believing everything that media spins, it is time to realize that media is just another business industry.

FULLY AGREE WITH PESKY672!1

[unencrypted]

@Rusty Bucket, I read "American Sniper" not too long ago. I first heard about Chris Kyle while watching an episode of "Sons of Guns". When I found out he had a book, I read it. It presents a very interesting perspective on war/conflict that I don't think the average person can comprehend on their own. You can't help but develop a deeper appreciation for what our troops deal with daily on the battlefield.

[albertadave]

traiter to canada treason plus murder oh and by the way Hitler youth where not canadian when the fought for germany

Bingo.

[Rusty P. Bucket]

@Rusty Bucket, I read "American Sniper" not too long ago. I first heard about Chris Kyle while watching an episode of "Sons of Guns". When I found out he had a book, I read it. It presents a very interesting perspective on war/conflict that I don't think the average person can comprehend on their own. You can't help but develop a deeper appreciation for what our troops deal with daily on the battlefield.

If you enjoyed Kyle's book ,you might also want to try "It Doesn't Take A Hero" by Stormin Norman Schwartzkopff. He goes through is life of dealing with ignorant savages and barbarians both as a grunt and as a brass hat diplomat.

The bleeding hearts spout off about laws and think they are riding a high horse when all they are actually doing is flogging a dead one. In a nutshell, what these well meaning naïve doofuses don't understand - is that our laws are predicated on a certain level of civility. Like it or not, Omar's character was forged in a society that had no rule of law, that respects only strength, where the strong victimize the weak, and treachery and deceit are considered art forms. The pastimes of that society include bestiality and pedophilia.

Some dummies would have us turn that animal loose in a society where women can have a voice, children have rights, and most of the men are liberal beta males and unarmed. Unfortunately, this is one electric fence that liberals and stupid people are hell bent on p***ing on.

[Big Daddy Badger]

[QUOTE=pesky672;1983950]Or a young man that was vivctimiosed first by his family and then us when he was forced to become a boy soldier.


Its funny how in this day and age.... we have less compassion and understanding for this than we did while dealing with Hitler youth after WWII.

The brain washing that Hitler did to his youth movement was truly remarkable.
In my younger days, I worked with an individual who was in the Hitler youth. He still strongly followed and was more that willing to talk about the Nazi doctrine, and sadly and incredibly, still believed it. It bothered me then, and the Khadr situation bothers me now.



No doubt some of those kids were never fully able to forget where they came from but most did a pretty good job of it and managed to become productive in society.
Thank you for your candor.

My feeling is that regardless of what Khadr is or is noit guilty of... we lost some of our moral highground when we failed to even try.

[Kanonfodder]

He won't live to see the outside world again imo

[Big Daddy Badger]

Really, what armed forces did he belong to? He is a Canadian, he's certianly not a Canadian soldier. War is largely a dated concept. When's the last time war was actually declared by any country? Even actual soldiers as opposed to enemy combatants can be tried for things like treason.

What is the purpose of having compassion for a rabid dog? They are incompatable with society. They serve no purpose.

You sure seem to know a lot about this...

Not.

Rules.
Rules are what define the difference between us and what we hate.
If we ignore them... we run the risk of reducing ourselves to that which we struggle against.

Fact is we invaded a country and that is an act of war whether it is declared or not.
That non-war (according to you) has been going on for over a decade now.

He was dragged into it by his father... the real traitor here...and had little choice but to participate.
His "training" would have made it all but impossible to respond to certain stimulous in a way other than he did.
Its called conditioning... stimulous-response training.
That type of training is designed to eliminate thought from action under certain circumstances.
Young people, especially children are especially maliable and subject condition response training. Thats a big part of why militaries like to get em while they are young.

Uniforms once mattered but they are of little import now and that has been the case really since WWII.
We have had our own people over there sans uniform and incognito... does that mean that they are no longer soldiers?
Even if he was seen as a 5th columnist or partisan... he now would be treated much like a regular enemy soldier combatant.

That said, the fact that he was under age makes those points moot.
We signed onto an international treaty recognizing the need to treat child soldiers differently.

What we have here is a family that offered their child up for exploitation and a country that then turned their back on their legal and moral obligation to at least try do the right thing in accordance with laws and treaties that we'd signed on to.

Eventually he will get out of prison and my thought is that the the guy that gets out under these circumstances is going to be far more of a concern than he might otherwise be if... as a kid he'd recieved rehabilitation and a bit more understanding when he was first captured.

We have done the same for others... many of whom have commited far worse acts but when it came to one of ourr own... we did nothing.
Our treatement of that one individual Canadian... conflicts with how we have responded to child soldiers from other countries both historically and in more recent times.

It really was a departure from tradition and unique to this one fellow and I suspect that we will regret the decission to do that some day.:)

[diamonddave]

Dont you get tired of trying to convert everybody els to your way of thinking Pesky? Maybe its time to look at it as everybody else thinks the oposite of you maybe its you that needs to rework your logic... not sure how you come up with your idea that because the offenders are youths they are not responsible for their actions. Im starting to think you have a similar situation going on in your present or past history.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Tom, my first reaction was probably something close to yours...
However, we forget how easy a young persons brain works. He was brought up in a home that provided radical beliefs and true hate of Western philosophy. He did what most children his age would do and followed his parents beliefs and direction. In 2009 I lost my best friend Sapper Steven Marshall in Afghanistan to someone's beliefs and hatred. I'm not a liberal, and I haven't forgotten what happened to my friend and never will. I used to be full of hate because of what happened. Reality is we need to open our eyes and see what the real problem is.. If I can try to understand, I'm sure you can try too.

Thank you for that.
I have also seen a number of friends buried as a result of that place.
Some that I was quite close to... one that I'd know for a very long time.... 20years and one of the kindest men I've ever known.

I can't speak for them but I do know that what always bothered me the most overseas was the kids.
They are the ones that keep me up at night.
And not just the ones that were wounded and starving... but the ones carrying machine guns too.

Scarey... beyond belief... a child with a gun... oh boy.
Its full pucker when a kid levels an AK-47 at ya....
Not in Afghanistan... somewhere else I saw quite a few child soldiers.
But I remember a couple of em after something happened.... just coming apart... bawling... when they realized what they'd been tricked into.
And there they were... a soldier yesterday gunning down their neighbours and now... a kid like any other...scared, alone and confused.

If there were a few of em around, once you fed em and if someone found a ball or something... they'd play just like kids here... soccer or tag or whatever... giggling and smiling. They liked to be read to and they were eager to please. Most of em were pretty good kids... and very obedient.
Once they were shown a bit of care and empathy they never looked back.
They weren't interested in guns anymore.
I really felt bad for them.

[Big Daddy Badger]

I am not following the story where is he going to be going ?

The big house in Edmonton.

[Peace786]

Dont you get tired of trying to convert everybody els to your way of thinking Pesky? Maybe its time to look at it as everybody else thinks the oposite of you maybe its you that needs to rework your logic... not sure how you come up with your idea that because the offenders are youths they are not responsible for their actions. Im starting to think you have a similar situation going on in your present or past history.

Omar was denied justice, because his trial was NOT conducted fairly in any manner. All lawyers with a conscience know this. If you are adamant about not acknowledging this fact, then you are in a minority compared to the rest of the world. Please be fair.

[Gust]

Dont you get tired of trying to convert everybody els to your way of thinking Pesky? Maybe its time to look at it as everybody else thinks the oposite of you maybe its you that needs to rework your logic... not sure how you come up with your idea that because the offenders are youths they are not responsible for their actions. Im starting to think you have a similar situation going on in your present or past history.

Perky isn't looking for converts to his way of thinking, he is merely expressing actual experiences that lead him to his conclusions. He's just asking you to see what he feels, nothing more, no debate.

Sometimes it's good to step outside of our own opinions and consider other opinions for even just a moment.

[Hunter1602]

Thank you for that.
I have also seen a number of friends buried as a result of that place.
Some that I was quite close to... one that I'd know for a very long time.... 20years and one of the kindest men I've ever known.

I can't speak for them but I do know that what always bothered me the most overseas was the kids.
They are the ones that keep me up at night.
And not just the ones that were wounded and starving... but the ones carrying machine guns too.

Scarey... beyond belief... a child with a gun... oh boy.
Its full pucker when a kid levels an AK-47 at ya....
Not in Afghanistan... somewhere else I saw quite a few child soldiers.
But I remember a couple of em after something happened.... just coming apart... bawling... when they realized what they'd been tricked into.
And there they were... a soldier yesterday gunning down their neighbours and now... a kid like any other...scared, alone and confused.

If there were a few of em around, once you fed em and if someone found a ball or something... they'd play just like kids here... soccer or tag or whatever... giggling and smiling. They liked to be read to and they were eager to please. Most of em were pretty good kids... and very obedient.
Once they were shown a bit of care and empathy they never looked back.
They weren't interested in guns anymore.
I really felt bad for them.


Cheers brother.

[diamonddave]

lets be fair and put your child in the box 6 feet down and have the discussion with the lawers about conscience.

people that think society is doing more harm than good by punishing kids for their actions need to get a hold on reality. Their way of thinking is why we have the problems in the youth that we do today. They take zero responsiblity for their actions because they know they have zero reprecousions for them.

[diamonddave]

Perky isn't looking for converts to his way of thinking, he is merely expressing actual experiences that lead him to his conclusions. He's just asking you to see what he feels, nothing more, no debate.

Sometimes it's good to step outside of our own opinions and consider other opinions for even just a moment.

I value your opinions Gust and i realize what you are saying. But from my real life experience and having seen what i have, i have to disagree with most of what pesky says on the subject of youth and punishment vs youth and unacountability

[recce43]

kadr is not a child soldier
International humanitarian law
According to Article 77.2 of the Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts, adopted in 1977:

‘The Parties to the conflict shall take all feasible measures in order that children who have not attained the age of fifteen years do not take a direct part in hostilities and, in particular, they shall refrain from recruiting them into their armed forces. In recruiting among those persons who have attained the age of fifteen years but who have not attained the age of eighteen years, the Parties to the conflict shall endeavour to give priority to those who are oldest.’

Well, that seems rather clear: once a person has reached the age of 15, he/she cannot be considered to be a ‘Child Soldier’ – even though it’s better to recruit people who are over the age of 18…. 15-year-olds are ‘regular soldiers’!

Omar Khadr HAD ‘attained the age of fifteen years’ - so he IS, according to international law, ‘regular soldier’

[brokenhead]

If he was an adult at the time he was throwing grenades at soldiers he would have been arrested if he wasnt killed outright. Would he have been tried for murder or treated as a POW? Is every adult "insurgent" sitting in jail or in Guantanamo?

[recce43]

If he was an adult at the time he was throwing grenades at soldiers he would have been arrested if he wasnt killed outright. Would he have been tried for murder or treated as a POW? Is every adult "insurgent" sitting in jail or in Guantanamo?

legally, Omar Khadr CANNOT be considered a ‘Child Soldier’, because he is not a ‘Child’: he would have had to have been FOURTEEN years of age or younger in order to be considered a ‘Child Soldier’ so he was treated like a
insurgent

[Big Daddy Badger]

Dont you get tired of trying to convert everybody els to your way of thinking Pesky? Maybe its time to look at it as everybody else thinks the oposite of you maybe its you that needs to rework your logic... not sure how you come up with your idea that because the offenders are youths they are not responsible for their actions. Im starting to think you have a similar situation going on in your present or past history.

Well Dave why would I get tired of trying to squeeze out the best from us?
Why would I be interested in everyone agreeing with me?
Wouldn't that be boring?
What would we talk about?
Where we new ideas come from?

More importantly why would you resist independant thought and new ideas?
Why would you resent an opportunity to put on the other mans shoes and see how they felt?
Why would you fear an opportunity to navel gaze and test the status quo?
Isn't that sort of pedestrian robotic thought the cause of so many of our difficulties now?

It must be nice to be so confident without any practical experience from which to draw that from though.:)
Want to trade?:)
My nightmares for your bluster and BS?

You have your opinion and that is fine... go hard.
Its your right and I'd die to preserve it for you.

But... was it formed by what you have been told or by your own lifes experiences?
Was that opinion formed in the same manner that the subject chap formed his by age 15?
Are you an image of the opinions and lessons taught you by you community and your family just like Khadr?
If so... who would you be if your father and mother and your community had all been different than they were?
Would Diamonddave be asking me these questions if he had spent the first 15 years being taught different lessons than he was and then been locked up for the next 10 years?
Would Diamonddave be asking me this if he had survived Somalia or Bosnia or witnessed attrocities?
Would Diamonddave ask me this if he'd ever stared down the wrong end of a kid with a MG and then seen that same kid playing soccer the next day afterv being freed?

So you see... you are in fact quite correct.. I do have experience with some of this and those experiences resulted in a significant change in opinion.

You would also do well to understand that in some ways we all come back from those places changed.
Usually for the better.
We become more empathetis and thoughtful than we were the day we left home.
Most lose the arrogance and blind self assurance displayed in the post above.
Most lose the blinders and start to see that the world and the peole in it are not as simple as a sound bite on Foxnews.
.
There really is no substitute for experience.... unless you count bravado and bluster I guess.:)


That should answer your question.
Unless it was rhetorical and was actually intended to be a slight or a suggestion that I was a troubled youth or something along those lines.
If so...I'm disappointed... that was beneath you... or so I should have hoped.
I guess I'll have to work even harder on you in that case.:)

[Big Daddy Badger]

legally, Omar Khadr CANNOT be considered a ‘Child Soldier’, because he is not a ‘Child’: he would have had to have been FOURTEEN years of age or younger in order to be considered a ‘Child Soldier’ so he was treated like a
insurgent

He was inducted as a child and there was an opportunity nonetheless.
Even the Americans couldn't understand our position.

They all but begged us to take him.

[brokenhead]

So all adult onsurgents have been tried for murder and are in prison?

[silver]

He was inducted as a child and there was an opportunity nonetheless.
Even the Americans couldn't understand our position.

They all but begged us to take him.

He may have been a child when his father brought him into the war but by the UN definitions, he was 15 and an adult.

The US did not want him because he was nothing but a headache. One of his guards was black and female and by all reports, he was extremely abusive to her.

[pikergolf]

Dont you get tired of trying to convert everybody els to your way of thinking Pesky? Maybe its time to look at it as everybody else thinks the oposite of you maybe its you that needs to rework your logic... not sure how you come up with your idea that because the offenders are youths they are not responsible for their actions. Im starting to think you have a similar situation going on in your present or past history.

Most times young offenders are products of parents that don't care. Omar Khadr unfortunately didn't even have that going for him, his parents cared, deeply. I don't think his situation fits into what you are describing.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Cheers brother.

Cheemo!


The dabate about whether or not he was treated fairly is moot now.
We had it long ago and what is done is done.

I recall during those discussions which, were much more heated and were eventually reduced to name calling... that I pointed out one simple inevitability.

Eventually... he'll come home.

What I didn't know is how close to home that would be.

Edmonton and a short hike from my front door.
Where will he settle?
How will his guards feel?
A good number of them are ex-military and many will probably struggle with their feelings.

Where do we go from here?

He won't be kicked out and no decent country will take him.
If we'd tried harder to save him from himself perhaps it wouldn't be such a worry.

But we didn't and now the boy that was and always would be our problem has become an albatross.
He is the elephant in the closet and we'll all be waiting for him to break wind.

Will he sue?
Will he just try to pick up the pieces of his life... get a job and try toi do better by his own kids than his parents did?

By all accounts he was a model prisoner... contrary to what another member suggested.


Thoughts?

[greylynx]

While in the Edmonton Institution let this misled lad get closer to Jesus with my native brothers. The teepee on the north side might be a good place.

When he is released, watch him like a hawk.

[Rusty P. Bucket]

There is something to be learned from everything and everyone, Dave - and even the naïve elderly hippies, peaceniks and bleeding hearts here have a few lessons to teach us. Listening to them, I have drawn a few conclusions that are logically unassailable:

1. As long as liberals and lefties have a say in such conflicts like the one in Afghanistan - we will never win. They do not understand the scum we fight against, they don't have the intellect or the courage to win. They aren't worth arguing with except for comedic and entertainment purposes. The fact is they will only prolong such conflicts and kill more of our servicemen as they try to 'reason' with animals.

2. The lesson to our squaddies that are actually in harm's way is clear also: these lefties here at home will stab you in the back if at all possible, even as they deny doing it. They will claim to support you as they undermine your mission and expose you to greater danger by enabling your enemies.

3. The third and final lesson is all too painfully clear and is also for the squaddies: DON'T TAKE PRISONERS. This mutt should have died on the battle field and been forgotten and left for the buzzards. Instead, leftist scum are lining up 10 deep to kiss his butt! Far better to kill them in the field. Sure, a few might have intel and tactical value - and for them, a few hours on the waterboard and a shallow grave afterward will suffice nicely.

[rugatika]

Well said Rusty.

The left's love for criminals and terrorists never ceases to amaze me. Boohoo. We are all products of our parents to some extent. At some point one has to be responsible for your own actions (I know...it's a concept contrary to the left's ideology). If you don't understand right from wrong when you're 8 or 10 I can maybe understand blaming the parents...at 15 you get caught killng people....you own it. That turd should consider himself lucky he's in prison. If Obummer had been pres at the time he would have been bombed by a drone and left a puddle in the dirt.

[Big Daddy Badger]

He may have been a child when his father brought him into the war but by the UN definitions, he was 15 and an adult.

The US did not want him because he was nothing but a headache. One of his guards was black and female and by all reports, he was extremely abusive to her.

By all reports?
Really?
I would like to see just one that says he was anythi ng other than a modle prisoner.
Perhaps you will supply us with one.
Otherwise here is some reading for you.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/10/05/khadr-day-parole.html

Looks like we are going to have him on our streets sooner than we thought.... due to good behavior.

http://fff.org/explore-freedom/article/canadas-shameful-and-unending-disdain-for-omar-khadr/


http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/01/22/omar-khadr-case_n_2528411.html

I recall an interview with prosecuting attorney and even he opined that the kid was a well behaved prisoner that had abandoned his previous beliefs.

But again... please show us the article that sates he was abusive.
That would be interesting and might assist the dabate.:)

[Big Daddy Badger]

kadr is not a child soldier
International humanitarian law
According to Article 77.2 of the Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts, adopted in 1977:

‘The Parties to the conflict shall take all feasible measures in order that children who have not attained the age of fifteen years do not take a direct part in hostilities and, in particular, they shall refrain from recruiting them into their armed forces. In recruiting among those persons who have attained the age of fifteen years but who have not attained the age of eighteen years, the Parties to the conflict shall endeavour to give priority to those who are oldest.’

Well, that seems rather clear: once a person has reached the age of 15, he/she cannot be considered to be a ‘Child Soldier’ – even though it’s better to recruit people who are over the age of 18…. 15-year-olds are ‘regular soldiers’!

Omar Khadr HAD ‘attained the age of fifteen years’ - so he IS, according to international law, ‘regular soldier’

Well the supreme court seems to think his rights were violated but what do they know about that eh?

[Big Daddy Badger]

While in the Edmonton Institution let this misled lad get closer to Jesus with my native brothers. The teepee on the north side might be a good place.

When he is released, watch him like a hawk.

Welcome back Grey.
I was getting a bit worried that you wouldn't show.:)

[rugatika]

Well the supreme court seems to think his rights were violated but what do they know about that eh?

The Supreme court of Canada is made up of the same judges that think 5 months is a good sentence for child molesters.

[recce43]

Well the supreme court seems to think his rights were violated but what do they know about that eh?

Well your world UN thinks he is not a child soldier ,,,,Geee whiz our supreme court is no better than our senators

[Big Daddy Badger]

Well said Rusty.

The left's love for criminals and terrorists never ceases to amaze me. Boohoo. We are all products of our parents to some extent. At some point one has to be responsible for your own actions (I know...it's a concept contrary to the left's ideology). If you don't understand right from wrong when you're 8 or 10 I can maybe understand blaming the parents...at 15 you get caught killng people....you own it. That turd should consider himself lucky he's in prison. If Obummer had been pres at the time he would have been bombed by a drone and left a puddle in the dirt.

Rusty, Rugs.

Neither one of you knows squat about war or child soldiers beyond what you saw on TV and you ignored most of that.
As hard as it might be to believe you also know squat about me, my politics or my experiences in life.

The discussion is about Khadr and what the future will bring.
It is not about me or what political party anyone favours.

You Rugs neatly ignored this eventuallity in previous discussions but now it has come home to roost.
You and a few others buried your heads in a sandbox of denial yet... here we are.

So please.
Either participate in the debate or do not.
Your polite objective and non-political input is welcome.

If you wish to discuss my merits... start another thread, PM me or call someone who cares.
If its a PM... I will surely respond.

If you wish to discuss your narrow view of what social responsability should look like... again... feel free to start another thread.
While you are at that perhaps you will consider the politics of denying a Canadian their civil rights, the legality of that and why it should be of great concern to all of us...even conservatives.

Your choice, but please stop trolling for a reaction to derail the thread.
So far... it has remained civil and I suspect that most would like for that to continue although we might not see eye to eye with one another.

You both know better than that....well... at least one of you does anyway.:)

Your personal slights only indicate that you have nothing of merit to contribute to the discussion, that you are ill informed and... they are unwelcome.
Stick to the topic if you wish... and prove my assessment wrong...if you wish.

And again in closing and at the risk of being verbose...please feel free to participate in polite discussion like everyone else whether in agreement with me or not.... or go kick your own balls.:)

[diamonddave]

You have thegift for the written word Pesky, I will give you that. You are obviously well educated and have experience in suffering, and have watched people suffer. But don't think for a moment that you are the only one.
I dont BS and I dont talk tough because it looks good on the internet. Don't be so quick to assume you are the only one that has seen the wrong end of a gun, or in other synarios the end of a rope or car or whatever else will pass for a weapon.
Dont think you are the only one who has nightmares and i wouldn't be so quick to trade mine for a strangers who I have never met or walked in their shoes.
I at one time thought that we should do better as a society to try and help the kids that have done wrong, been led down the wrong street by parents brothers sisters drug dealersect ect.
In the end we are all responsible for our own decisions and when that kid walks out of the courts with a smile,, and 6 months behind him for time served, and 3 kids are in the ground for eternity, my empathy grows cold.

You can blame society and every other external influence you want, , but the kids growing up in our day and age, in this country, have not seen the action you speak of. Whats their excuse? Why should they not be held accountable? Because their mom had to work 2 jobs and their daddy wasnt around?


I cant see the glass 3/4 full like you do Pesky, in my world our youth should be held accountable for their actions.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Well your world UN thinks he is not a child soldier ,,,,Geee whiz our supreme court is no better than our senators

Don't quit your day job.:)

For my part I'd rather take my lead from the supreme court than the UN anyway.

Ever heard of some things called the laws of armed conflict and the Geneva conventions?

Here a much parsed down...readers digest snippet of the salient facts.

http://www.unicef.org/emergencies/files/childsoldiers.pdf

Elements already in place
Legislation: In 2002 the Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the involvement of children in armed conflict entered into force. It outlaws the involvement of children under age 18 in hostilities, raising the previous standard of age (15 years) set by the Convention and the 1949 Geneva Conventions and their 1977 Additional Protocols. As well as requiring States to raise the age for compulsory recruitment and direct participation in conflict to 18, the Optional Protocol requires State parties to raise the minimum age for voluntary recruitment beyond the current minimum
of 15.

This protocol was brought into force on 18 Jan 2002... Khadr was captured in July.
Canada.. signed on before Khadr was captured..

[rugatika]

What's the debate you want Pesky? You claim he was a child soldier fighting in a war as a result of being brainwashed by his parents. The UN says 15 and over you ain't a child. The geneva convention says you need to be in uniform doesn't it? Just spitballing here, you're the expert, so you tell me where I'm wrong.

I am not an expert in war or child soldiers as you are. I do know that a 15 year old is fully capable of knowing right from wrong just as much as an 18 year old, and that a 15 year old killing 3 people deserves to be locked up. You disagree with me. Fine. I am sick of taking risks with people that are clearly fully capable and willing to commit these crimes again. You are OK with making an attempt at "rehabbing" criminals. I get it. You're wrong though. Like I said...if he was 8 or 10 I could maybe buy into the "poor victim child" thing. Not at 15.

I have no sympathy for killers, rapists, terrorists etc. There are too many GOOD people that have paid the price for recidivit criminals that someone was willing to risk their release back into the public. (and I know you don't like being lumped in with lefties, but it has always been lefties that have argued for lighter sentences and the whole rehab issue)

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[RandyBoBandy]

I'd love see this to unfold..BUT I doubt it:mad0030:

[birdinator]

Its funny how in this day and age.... we have less compassion and understanding for this than we did while dealing with Hitler youth after WWII.

...and we interned Canadians of Japanese heritage in that day and age just because we didn't trust their loyalty.

[Big Daddy Badger]

You have thegift for the written word Pesky, I will give you that. You are obviously well educated and have experience in suffering, and have watched people suffer. But don't think for a moment that you are the only one.
I dont BS and I dont talk tough because it looks good on the internet. Don't be so quick to assume you are the only one that has seen the wrong end of a gun, or in other synarios the end of a rope or car or whatever else will pass for a weapon.
Dont think you are the only one who has nightmares and i wouldn't be so quick to trade mine for a strangers who I have never met or walked in their shoes.
I at one time thought that we should do better as a society to try and help the kids that have done wrong, been led down the wrong street by parents brothers sisters drug dealersect ect.
In the end we are all responsible for our own decisions and when that kid walks out of the courts with a smile,, and 6 months behind him for time served, and 3 kids are in the ground for eternity, my empathy grows cold.

You can blame society and every other external influence you want, , but the kids growing up in our day and age, in this country, have not seen the action you speak of. Whats their excuse? Why should they not be held accountable? Because their mom had to work 2 jobs and their daddy wasnt around?


I cant see the glass 3/4 full like you do Pesky, in my world our youth should be held accountable for their actions.

And in mine... they should have their childhood and a chance for redemption.... or at least their lawful rights.


As for the percieved slight I simply responded to your assumtions in kind.
I can see that you appreciated it as much as I did.
Nothing personal... just making a point then driving it home.:)
You reap what you sow.
I earn some ire... but I do like to share.:)
It was a fairly safe bet... by now I know most of the vets here but of course there is more horror and violence in the world than can be contained in those crappy places.:)


You know... we've done it.
Boy soldier and boy sailors.
The youngest Canadian that April day in France a hundred years ago... was 12.
Now that was an accident... he'd lied about his age he should have been 18 in those trenches but by the time his mother tracked him down he'd marched right up that ridge.
IIRC he was a Saskabush... Milne was his name and apparently... he was very hirsuite.:)

We sent him home... to Mom:).

I wonder what the Germans would have done to him if they'd captured him.

By all accounts it was common enough... but then armies understood that boy soldiers were different.
They used to make sure someone looked after them a bit.
They were apprentices, pipers, drummers and batsmen and usually kept out of direct combat.
It was bad form to kill a piper and you can appreciate why there was little mercy for anyone who did.
A different time... a tougher time and people grew up quick but still they understood through experience that boy soldiers were different.
Perhaps if we still recruited that young it would be easier for us to understand now.

Responsability.

In a civilian world we are all responsable for ourselves with few exceptions.
In a military one... the understanding is that you can designate tasks or duties but not your responsability.
All responasbility is held by a commander and as we descend in rank small bits of individual responsability are taken up by each man until we get down to the private soldier.
He like Khadr is responsible to be loyal to his mates and to instantaneously respond to familiar words of command.

There was a crime committed but it was not murder... a military force attacked another military force and when that happens the ones that die weren't murdered.

I know some like to see it otherwise but that is hypocritical and self serving.

The crime and the responsbility belong to those that took that boy stole his youth and weaponized him.
He did not deserve punishment any more than other boy combatant pressed into service in any other war but he did deserve our understanding and he absolutley needed our help.

Hopefully, the accounts of him now are correct and he has taken a different path.
The Americans were thoughtful enough to keep him away from the adult fanatics so who knows?

Perhaps if he proves himself...in time people will be inspired to rise above their base fears and bias and find it in themselves to forgive.

He was only 15, it was a defensive action.
Its 10 years and thousands of dead later....he was one of the longest held prisoners... because his country... wasn't prepared to step up and deal with him.
Its quite shameful actually....Canada was alone among nations in that regard.


I guess we'll just have to tip our hats and agree to disagree Dave.

[Big Daddy Badger]

What's the debate you want Pesky? You claim he was a child soldier fighting in a war as a result of being brainwashed by his parents. The UN says 15 and over you ain't a child. The geneva convention says you need to be in uniform doesn't it? Just spitballing here, you're the expert, so you tell me where I'm wrong.

I am not an expert in war or child soldiers as you are. I do know that a 15 year old is fully capable of knowing right from wrong just as much as an 18 year old, and that a 15 year old killing 3 people deserves to be locked up. You disagree with me. Fine. I am sick of taking risks with people that are clearly fully capable and willing to commit these crimes again. You are OK with making an attempt at "rehabbing" criminals. I get it. You're wrong though. Like I said...if he was 8 or 10 I could maybe buy into the "poor victim child" thing. Not at 15.

I have no sympathy for killers, rapists, terrorists etc. There are too many GOOD people that have paid the price for recidivit criminals that someone was willing to risk their release back into the public. (and I know you don't like being lumped in with lefties, but it has always been lefties that have argued for lighter sentences and the whole rehab issue)

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Welcome to the discussion.
Still having problems directing your anger I see...Nice rant.:scared:

We have your opinion now but what is lacking is anything to legitimise the position.

Do you have stats?
Did you know that time and again... therapy without punishment... even for sex offenders has proven to be much much more effective than punishment alone?

No matter...thats another debate...

The accumulated experience of literally hundreds if not thousands of years of warfare and the study of same including the aftermath and the disposal of child combatants is meaningless to us now I guess.

All those Hitler youth should have been jailed and left to rot for a decade then released upon society.
The child soldiers of Canmbodia and Africa have not been normalised and the world is held hostage by our fear of them.
If we don't send this kid somewhere... that nobody can name...Omar Khadr will walk out of prison and do horrid things... nobody will keep an eye on him to monitor his progress.

Rugs you can deal with things as they are or build prisons, lock em up, turn your back and walk away pretending they do not exist.
Canada did that 10 years ago and here we are... same problem... different day.
If Khadr dies tomarrow we will still have the same problem it just won't be as immediate.
Eventually we will still have to decide whether or not those conventions and that thing called a the charter of rights actually mean anything and when we do... we will have to either man up and abide by our word or be seen as a nation without honour or commitment to any ideal.

Fair weather freedom lovers... thats what they should call us.

As uncomfortable as it is... the worth of our rights and those agreements is such that we must sometimes... hold our noses and take the bad with the good.:)
It means that we should be secure enough in ourselves and our rights to steam on and actually take a small chance once in a blue moon.
We might just surprise ourselves and find out that Canada and our rights do mean something.
Khadr could be walking talking proof of that AND of the superiority of our way of life and our conviction but no... instead he is the retarded kid that we are so ashamed of that we locked him up in the cellar and tried to forget about him.

Now he gets to wear that treatment like a badge of honour and it shames us all.

Thank you for your on topic input.:love0025:


.

[BeeGuy]

He isn't an Albertan, and neither is anyone that thinks he is, in my scholarly opinion.

"American Sniper" by Chris Kyle is recommended reading for the intellectual sportsman. Mr. Kyle killed around 168 animals just like Omar and he makes no bones about calling them 'animals'. Khadr has committed crimes against us and his own people and should be put down like the cur he is. So should most of his family, for that matter. At the very least, these swine should not be allowed in any civilized country.

My feeling is that at the rate we are going, we are going to have feral apes chasing real people down and beheading them in the streets like they do in London. We need to re-evaluate our immigration policy...and our stance on licensed concealed carry as well.

Tell us how you really feel...

[recce43]

Don't quit your day job.:)

For my part I'd rather take my lead from the supreme court than the UN anyway.

Ever heard of some things called the laws of armed conflict and the Geneva conventions?

Here a much parsed down...readers digest snippet of the salient facts.

http://www.unicef.org/emergencies/files/childsoldiers.pdf

Elements already in place
Legislation: In 2002 the Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the involvement of children in armed conflict entered into force. It outlaws the involvement of children under age 18 in hostilities, raising the previous standard of age (15 years) set by the Convention and the 1949 Geneva Conventions and their 1977 Additional Protocols. As well as requiring States to raise the age for compulsory recruitment and direct participation in conflict to 18, the Optional Protocol requires State parties to raise the minimum age for voluntary recruitment beyond the current minimum
of 15.

This protocol was brought into force on 18 Jan 2002... Khadr was captured in July.
Canada.. signed on before Khadr was captured..

ya i will keep my day job .. Now that im retired from the forces and have been in a war zone a few times

[Iskra]

[QUOTE=Ronji;1984003]



No doubt some of those kids were never fully able to forget where they came from but most did a pretty good job of it and managed to become productive in society.
Thank you for your candor.

My feeling is that regardless of what Khadr is or is noit guilty of... we lost some of our moral highground when we failed to even try.

Thanks to people with your mentality.

[ctd]

He new what he was doing. Right or wrong he as a Canadian citizen has to be responsible for his actions.

We as Canadians need to be aware of the issues that plague us in regards to our views on child soldiers.

Don't think tomorrow you can turn the light on and off for these kids who many are now adults. Many of these kids did some terrible acts. Lots of times out of fear for their own families and much of the time while high on drugs.

Children make the good fighters. They listen well because you can influence them easily. They are usual viewed by their enemy as a child and therefore harmless.
A bullet is a bullet. It stops a person dead no matter if it comes from a childs gun or an adults gun.

There is a distinctive difference between a child serving in a Military and a child who sees active combat in the Military. The stresses are different as are conditioning.

Omar Kadar should be dealt with as the person he is. Not what he could be.

He was a Canadian Citizen taking part in a war against us and our Allies. He was captured and treated as such.

He should get no special treatment, nor should he be ignored. Which I really do not feel we have done either.

He should stay in jail and he should serve what ever time is deemed proper. At that time he should have his citizenship revoked and sent back to the country where he and his family choose to defend.

[Big Daddy Badger]

The Supreme court of Canada is made up of the same judges that think 5 months is a good sentence for child molesters.
Yer starting to creep off topic and sounds a bit annecdotal again.

I'm sure they aren't perfect but they are the Supreme Court of Canada and I don't think anyone should ignore their ruling lightly.
Especially in the face of a successful tradition that dates back to at least WWII of treating such combatants with compassion.

[Big Daddy Badger]

ya i will keep my day job .. Now that im retired from the forces and have been in a war zone a few times

Well I guess you just plumb forgot the Geneva Conventions when you chose a UN reference that is of a lower standard.
Could happen to anyone.:)

:thinking-006:

[Big Daddy Badger]

[QUOTE=pesky672;1984194]

Thanks to people with your mentality.

Really?

First off that doesn't make sense.

Its an incomplete idea and if you glue it to my last statement... it would be directed at someone else. Of course it would still be wrong because we both thought something more should have been done.

In other words you should have said... Thanks to people with MY mentality... refering to yourself.

Anyhoo...:)

What have you done to make the world a better place lately?
I mean aside from being a smart azz internet commando.
My guess is nothing.
Its easy to insult from your living room but I rather doubt you'd be so forward in person.

Instead of just being a life support for a mouth and an oxygen thief why don't you take the lead off of a few others and actually state your case?

I know... because that would require more effort than a waste of skin nobody with a fast mouth and slow brain can muster and because your conclusions might not be spoon fed to you fast enough to keep up.
In other words it might require effort and thought and for you... probably some brain bleed from the effort.

So fill us in genius...tell us why Khadr was treated fairly and then tell us what happened to all those Canadians that decided to work as mercenaries in Yugoslavia... often in direct conflict with what our government sent its soldiers to do?

Tell us why its OK to leave a boy soldier who had already been victimized by every influentual adult in his life... in jail against international agreements and Canadian law.

Then tell us why a Yugoslav irregular that took a dozen or so Canadian soldier hostage and threatened their lives was allowed to move to Canada and now lives as a citizen in Edmonton.

And finally tell us how we are now better off for having handled things as we have than we would have been if we'd actually tried to help him.

Life just isn't as simple as you seem to need it pal.
Now stick to the topic and state your case... PM me or blow.
You've waste enough of our time already junior.:)

[Big Daddy Badger]

He new what he was doing. Right or wrong he as a Canadian citizen has to be responsible for his actions.

We as Canadians need to be aware of the issues that plague us in regards to our views on child soldiers.

Don't think tomorrow you can turn the light on and off for these kids who many are now adults. Many of these kids did some terrible acts. Lots of times out of fear for their own families and much of the time while high on drugs.

Children make the good fighters. They listen well because you can influence them easily. They are usual viewed by their enemy as a child and therefore harmless.
A bullet is a bullet. It stops a person dead no matter if it comes from a childs gun or an adults gun.

There is a distinctive difference between a child serving in a Military and a child who sees active combat in the Military. The stresses are different as are conditioning.

Omar Kadar should be dealt with as the person he is. Not what he could be.

He was a Canadian Citizen taking part in a war against us and our Allies. He was captured and treated as such.

He should get no special treatment, nor should he be ignored. Which I really do not feel we have done either.

He should stay in jail and he should serve what ever time is deemed proper. At that time he should have his citizenship revoked and sent back to the country where he and his family choose to defend.

Thank you for that civil response.:)

I do disagree though on several points.

First... knowing what you are doing and being in control of that action or fully cognizant of the consequence are different.

He had been taught otherwise and after a lifetime of brainwashing controlling and conditioning he was finally placed in a position beyond his control.
Brainwashing works... look at cults...
But we are able to deprogram people very effectively especially if they are young.

I still hold that while his hands might have thrown that grenade... he was not fully in control of them.

Trust me on this... condition response "training" works... it is very good at removing choice or conscious thought from actions in response to stimulus.
It becomes a reflex action.... muslce memory.
A lot of guys fire that first shot and and only afterwards realize that they never actually decided to do it.
There was no moment when they said...should I or shouldn't I... it was already done.
Aside from that what would we expectt him to do?
he is trapped in the armpit of the world...surrounded by nuts... brainwashed and sudedenly a bunch of Americanms show up and appear to be trying to kill him.
they are killing the people he knows...
Its a war... at least in his mind and he is a soldier.... in his mind.
Soldiers fight for the guy next to them in that moment...even if they don't like the guy.

Otherwise thank you for your insight.
I can see that you have gave some thought to your post but came to an honest but different conclusion than I did.:)

[CanuckShooter]

Thank you for that.
I have also seen a number of friends buried as a result of that place.
Some that I was quite close to... one that I'd know for a very long time.... 20years and one of the kindest men I've ever known.

I can't speak for them but I do know that what always bothered me the most overseas was the kids.
They are the ones that keep me up at night.
And not just the ones that were wounded and starving... but the ones carrying machine guns too.

Scarey... beyond belief... a child with a gun... oh boy.
Its full pucker when a kid levels an AK-47 at ya....
Not in Afghanistan... somewhere else I saw quite a few child soldiers.
But I remember a couple of em after something happened.... just coming apart... bawling... when they realized what they'd been tricked into.
And there they were... a soldier yesterday gunning down their neighbours and now... a kid like any other...scared, alone and confused.

If there were a few of em around, once you fed em and if someone found a ball or something... they'd play just like kids here... soccer or tag or whatever... giggling and smiling. They liked to be read to and they were eager to please. Most of em were pretty good kids... and very obedient.
Once they were shown a bit of care and empathy they never looked back.
They weren't interested in guns anymore.
I really felt bad for them.

Big difference between those kids and that little Canadian boy that went overseas and started killing people. Mercenary is the title that comes to mind....the little twerp was a child Mercenary, a traitor trying to kill service men and women from his own country.

[Rusty P. Bucket]

Rusty, Rugs.

Neither one of you knows squat about war or child soldiers beyond what you saw on TV and you ignored most of that.
As hard as it might be to believe you also know squat about me, my politics or my experiences in life.

The discussion is about Khadr and what the future will bring.
It is not about me or what political party anyone favours... yadda yadda yaddla...blah blah blah



LOL. So you can't defend your arguments on the other stuff, and would like to change your tack, huh?

Fine.

The society that produced Omar is so corrupt, and so stagnant, that most of the "values" it cherishes are illegal here. This is a matter of public record, Pesky, and no amount of turd polishing will change that. The men that produced and shaped Omar see liberals and peaceniks as useful fools, to be used and discarded once they have served their purpose. This is all a matter of public record, compiled and recorded by men and women with boots on the ground - not some whisky soaked journalist in a posh hotel safely behind the lines or some liberal wank half a world away.

What future do men like Khadr, his useful fools in the media and the dummies in the judiciary bring? I would say the same 'future' being enjoyed right now by the idiots in Europe that have paved the way for this stupidity: moslem riots, rapes, beheadings, slums, racial tensions and terrorism. It has happened in Britain, France, Sweden, Denmark, Germany and a raft of other countries that have invited people like Omar into their nation and made them welcome.

Maybe ya better change the subject again, eh Pesky?

[bukwild]

What message is it that we are sending to terrorist groups like Al quida when we release thier soldiers back into our own ranks to start all over again? Are we sending a civil message of peace and good will? Somehow with the gigantic rift between our comprehension and thiers I bet thats not the message they get. I have been an athiest most of my life but have always accepted the beliefs of others. Now I really wish that practicioners of the muslim faith were not allowed in Canada or other westernized countries. I do have a very real fear for my family because of the non-descriminant violence that some in thier ranks are participating in. I think he should be at the very least kept in prison and at the most leaniant sent back to a Afganistan.

[BeeGuy]

When you are dealing with fundamentalists it doesn't matter which religion they follow.

All you closet xenophobes need to acknowledge that the issue is extremists, not Muslim.

Something that all fundamentalists across the board have in common is their conservatism, and far right ideologies.

[antmai]

Our tolerances....sigh.
The best thing about our incredible country is the worst thing about our fading country.

[rugatika]

http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/now-is-the-time-94.html

[recce43]

Intervening on behalf of suspected terrorists in foreign jails is what the politically correct crowd does. Remember it was Chretien who pressured Pakistan to set little Omar's daddy free. Now the same liberal mind-set is at work to put Omar back on the streets, despite his openly-avowed continued loyalty to the jihadist cause.

[Peace786]

What message is it that we are sending to terrorist groups like Al quida when we release thier soldiers back into our own ranks to start all over again? Are we sending a civil message of peace and good will? Somehow with the gigantic rift between our comprehension and thiers I bet thats not the message they get. I have been an athiest most of my life but have always accepted the beliefs of others. Now I really wish that practicioners of the muslim faith were not allowed in Canada or other westernized countries. I do have a very real fear for my family because of the non-descriminant violence that some in thier ranks are participating in. I think he should be at the very least kept in prison and at the most leaniant sent back to a Afganistan.

Millions of innocent people have been killed, because of the so called war on terrorism, plundering other countries for lame and absolutely false reasons like the Weapons of mass destruction etc does not win their support.
You need to research for yourself as to how the people in those countries have been affected by the war and then compare your suffering with theirs, the media does not deliberately shed light on this.

I am a Muslim, and a good Muslim does not harm anyone, same goes for a good Christian and a Jew.

Secondly, this intelligent world with a system for all creatures, and a balance did not begin to exist out of no where, there is a designer and a creator behind it. Do you know of anything else that can be claimed to be self made? yet we claim that the universe and the world has no creator.

If you are sincere, then you should address the creator and ask that if he really exists, he shall steer you towards recognizing him.

[rugatika]

Millions of innocent people have been killed, because of the so called war on terrorism, plundering other countries for lame and absolutely false reasons like the Weapons of mass destruction etc does not win their support.


My cousins friend knows a guy that heard it was trillions of people killed, but the conservatives (and I think we all know who I'm talking about when I say "conservatives"hint hint, wink wink, nudge nudge FAUX NEWS ahem) are suppressing the truth.

The bottom line is that by imprisoning people for killing someone, or raping them etc, we are just continuing the cycle. Who are we to sit in judgement of a person's actions? If more people would learn to hug criminals and terrorists and quit being so judgemental about their emotional frailties we could achieve Utopia.

[TBD]

The society that produced Omar is so corrupt, and so stagnant, that most of the "values" it cherishes are illegal here. This is a matter of public record, Pesky, and no amount of turd polishing will change that. The men that produced and shaped Omar see liberals and peaceniks as useful fools, to be used and discarded once they have served their purpose. This is all a matter of public record, compiled and recorded by men and women with boots on the ground - not some whisky soaked journalist in a posh hotel safely behind the lines or some liberal wank half a world away.

What future do men like Khadr, his useful fools in the media and the dummies in the judiciary bring? I would say the same 'future' being enjoyed right now by the idiots in Europe that have paved the way for this stupidity: moslem riots, rapes, beheadings, slums, racial tensions and terrorism. It has happened in Britain, France, Sweden, Denmark, Germany and a raft of other countries that have invited people like Omar into their nation and made them welcome.


The liberal left in this country have their heads SO FAR UP their AZZ'es these days - I'm shaking mine that we're actually debating Right / Wrong with the deals Omar's gotten and how the Canadian judiciary seems to be ignoring public setiment with regard to this family ....

Does Canadian citizenship not hold responsibility before rights - or is that just for us poor bastages paying all the taxes ...

These terroist organizations / families have this all figured out and will continue to prey - accept western peoples kindness / welfare - while spitting in our faces asserting their superiority ... and calling those among us, who question the obvious double standard, the racists !


TBD


PS - Chretian started with Clinton in brokering the deal for this guy, also made possible the concessions / reduced sentencing, ect ect he received.

Chretian had previous ties to the family - mother and father, acted on fathers behalf way back prior to Alfganistan ...

Their seems to be alot more here than what's being discussed on the surface, when considering the dealings this family has had with the Chretian's liberals back in the 90's ...

Harper and his conservative gov't didn't create this problem - they inherited IT !

[bukwild]

Millions of innocent people have been killed, because of the so called war on terrorism, plundering other countries for lame and absolutely false reasons like the Weapons of mass destruction etc does not win their support.
You need to research for yourself as to how the people in those countries have been affected by the war and then compare your suffering with theirs, the media does not deliberately shed light on this.

I am a Muslim, and a good Muslim does not harm anyone, same goes for a good Christian and a Jew.

Secondly, this intelligent world with a system for all creatures, and a balance did not begin to exist out of no where, there is a designer and a creator behind it. Do you know of anything else that can be claimed to be self made? yet we claim that the universe and the world has no creator.

If you are sincere, then you should address the creator and ask that if he really exists, he shall steer you towards recognizing him.

You're absolutly right! I now believe that all our armed forces should be kept out of these other countries. In the beginning I too drank the media kool-aid but I now believe that our aide both armed and financial should not be offered or continued in countries that are based in a religion that does not uphold the same rights and values as ours.

Secondly, yes this intelligent world does have a system for all creatures. That system is evolution and natural selection not some type of diety.

And how can I address a creator that does not exist?? But I will not try and argue the point. If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people.

[Peace786]

My cousins friend knows a guy that heard it was trillions of people killed, but the conservatives (and I think we all know who I'm talking about when I say "conservatives"hint hint, wink wink, nudge nudge FAUX NEWS ahem) are suppressing the truth.

The bottom line is that by imprisoning people for killing someone, or raping them etc, we are just continuing the cycle. Who are we to sit in judgement of a person's actions? If more people would learn to hug criminals and terrorists and quit being so judgemental about their emotional frailties we could achieve Utopia.


JUST the economic sanctions alone by the US and its allies, not the war, killed 576,000 Iraqi children due to lack of medicines and health care.


http://www.nytimes.com/1995/12/01/world/iraq-sanctions-kill-children-un-reports.html

[rugatika]

JUST the economic sanctions alone by the US and its allies, not the war, killed 576,000 Iraqi children due to lack of medicines and health care.


http://www.nytimes.com/1995/12/01/world/iraq-sanctions-kill-children-un-reports.html

Exactly what I'm talking about. Those poor children were killed BEFORE the war on terrorism even started (note the 1995 article date). The CIA likely travelled back in time and denied them healthcare so that they would die in order to make the overthrow of Iraq's benevolent leader Saddam Hussein possible. DEVILS!!

Incidentally, I heard the number was closer to 576,378 poor innocent children, plus 7 bullies.

[Big Daddy Badger]

...and we interned Canadians of Japanese heritage in that day and age just because we didn't trust their loyalty.

Yes we did and what for?

It was largely a racial thuing I think.
The excuses were pretty thin...

In the end... we paid for it though... they won the sued and won.
We all had to eat some crow over that one..

What are the chances that Khadr wouldn't win a similar court challenge.

Slim to none and slims bags are packed cause he's leaving town?

Down the road... our kids and grandkids are going to be judging us pretty hard for this one I think.

[Peace786]

Exactly what I'm talking about. Those poor children were killed BEFORE the war on terrorism even started (note the 1995 article date). The CIA likely travelled back in time and denied them healthcare so that they would die in order to make the overthrow of Iraq's benevolent leader Saddam Hussein possible. DEVILS!!

Incidentally, I heard the number was closer to 576,378 poor innocent children, plus 7 bullies.

Very simple to understand for those that have a soft heart and feel for fellow human beings, economic sanctions crippled Iraq and it could not import medicines to save lives of children, considering that the people of Iraq already had to put up with a cruel dictator like Saddam, the sanctions surpassed the cruelty of Saddam.

[TBD]

Very simple to understand for those that have a soft heart and feel for fellow human beings, economic sanctions crippled Iraq and it could not import medicines to save lives of children, considering that the people of Iraq already had to put up with a cruel dictator like Saddam, the sanctions surpassed the cruelty of Saddam.

Give your Head a fick'n shake - HARD !

Medicines / food aid was stolen by the ruling class and either consumed or sold - just like in Somalia - just like in Jamica !

TBD

[recce43]

JUST the economic sanctions alone by the US and its allies, not the war, killed 576,000 Iraqi children due to lack of medicines and health care.


http://www.nytimes.com/1995/12/01/world/iraq-sanctions-kill-children-un-reports.html

Ya cause saddam was so nice to everbody
Chemical weapon attacks [edit]Main article: Iraqi chemical weapons program
Location Weapon Used Date Casualties
Haij Umran Mustard August 1983 fewer than 100 Iranian/Kurdish
Panjwin Mustard October–November 1983 3,001 Iranian/Kurdish
Majnoon Island Mustard February–March 1984 2,500 Iranians
al-Basrah Tabun March 1984 50-100 Iranians
Hawizah Marsh Mustard & Tabun March 1985 3,000 Iranians
al-Faw Mustard & Tabun February 1986 8,000 to 10,000 Iranians
Um ar-Rasas Mustard December 1986 1,000s Iranians
al-Basrah Mustard & Tabun April 1987 5,000 Iranians
Sumar/Mehran Mustard & nerve agent October 1987 3,000 Iranians
Halabjah Mustard & nerve agent March 1988 7,000s Kurdish/Iranian
al-Faw Mustard & nerve agent April 1988 1,000s Iranians
Fish Lake Mustard & nerve agent May 1988 100s or 1,000s Iranians
Majnoon Islands Mustard & nerve agent June 1988 100s or 1,000s Iranians
South-central border Mustard & nerve agent July 1988 100s or 1,000s Iranians
an-Najaf -
Karbala area Nerve agent & CS March 1991 Unknown

[Big Daddy Badger]

Big difference between those kids and that little Canadian boy that went overseas and started killing people. Mercenary is the title that comes to mind....the little twerp was a child Mercenary, a traitor trying to kill service men and women from his own country.

You make it sound like he just went overseas of his own accord.

A more accurate description of him would be...

He is a Canadian boy that was taken overseas by someone who had the legal right to do so... was programmed by a bunch of nuts and then placed in the middle of a war zone where... upon being attacked.... he killed allied soldiers in an act of war.

You make it sound like he called a cab... went to the airport and bought himself a ticket.
That isnt the case.

And we have loads of mercenaries among us.

How many "contractor" positions are filled by Canadians?
How many of those mercenaries are working for people that do not have Canadas best interest at heart?

In fact... we used to run into Canadians that had joined different factions in Yugo quite often.
To my knowledge none of them was ever called to task for that even though they were often engaged in working against our national policy.

[Winch101]

Really , admit it , aren't you glad that this is all going on Thousands
of miles away and not in Saskatchewan , OK in Saskatchewan it would be Ok
lets say Ontario , no wait Ontario would be OK , any farther east ...NO ...cause Quebec would be great ,if all this human abuse
was going on in Quebec now we are talking ....actually read Le Monde and it is going on in Quebec...and we the west are the murderers . le huile de sable .

I heard an old guy at Tims express just that sentiment ....be grateful
all this crap isn't going on here ....I say be awake so they don't bring it here . Cause the jihadists are certainly trying to.

Just on this board I have been made aware of the fact that in the last
20 years roughly a trillion people have been slaughtered world wide....
How is it that the population is still exploding and experts are warning
if we don't smarten we are going to burst the seams....Apparently
the people that run the show believe that humans are expendable ...

Its the same thinking that idiot in the Red Beamer that rolled it on the Deerfoot yesterday ,had......People are expendable.

[Peace786]

Give your Head a fick'n shake - HARD !

Medicines / food aid was stolen by the ruling class and either consumed or sold - just like in Somalia - just like in Jamica !

TBD

That is your personal opinion, but in conflict with numerous reports generated by independent sources, and UN officials.

[recce43]

Taliban have in the past targeted food and convoys and is well documeted by the un and red cross

[Big Daddy Badger]

LOL. So you can't defend your arguments on the other stuff, and would like to change your tack, huh?

Fine.

The society that produced Omar is so corrupt, and so stagnant, that most of the "values" it cherishes are illegal here. This is a matter of public record, Pesky, and no amount of turd polishing will change that. The men that produced and shaped Omar see liberals and peaceniks as useful fools, to be used and discarded once they have served their purpose. This is all a matter of public record, compiled and recorded by men and women with boots on the ground - not some whisky soaked journalist in a posh hotel safely behind the lines or some liberal wank half a world away.

What future do men like Khadr, his useful fools in the media and the dummies in the judiciary bring? I would say the same 'future' being enjoyed right now by the idiots in Europe that have paved the way for this stupidity: moslem riots, rapes, beheadings, slums, racial tensions and terrorism. It has happened in Britain, France, Sweden, Denmark, Germany and a raft of other countries that have invited people like Omar into their nation and made them welcome.

Maybe ya better change the subject again, eh Pesky?

I never did.
You just went off topic.
You are still... barely on topic.
Thats what trolls do.
You almost always try to find a way to work in some way to bash liberals or gays or whatever.

You sure do remind me of a member we used to have here....
Makes me wonder if someone had a backup profile just in case they got sent to banned camp...:thinking-006:

In any case... what you are saying is that if left up to Liberals the kid would be free and that Liberals have gone out of their way to avoid having to deal with the problems we have in places like Afghanistan... is that correct?

[birdinator]

Its funny how in this day and age.... we have less compassion and understanding for this than we did while dealing with Hitler youth after WWII.
...and we interned Canadians of Japanese heritage in that day and age just because we didn't trust their loyalty.Yes we did and what for?

It was largely a racial thuing I think.
The excuses were pretty thin...

In the end... we paid for it though... they won the sued and won.
We all had to eat some crow over that one..

What are the chances that Khadr wouldn't win a similar court challenge.

Slim to none and slims bags are packed cause he's leaving town?

Down the road... our kids and grandkids are going to be judging us pretty hard for this one I think.
I'm not sure that you got my point. You seemed to be suggesting we were more compassionate in days gone by than now. I say that is not necessarily so, but that when necessary, compassion has and will likely always take a back seat to national security. I am not aware of the circumstances around the compassion that was extended by Canada to Hitler youth after WWII of which you speak, but I will take your word for it. Presumably then, it was felt that we could afford to be compassionate because the war was over, the threat gone.

[Peace786]

Ya cause saddam was so nice to everbody
Chemical weapon attacks [edit]Main article: Iraqi chemical weapons program
Location Weapon Used Date Casualties
Haij Umran Mustard August 1983 fewer than 100 Iranian/Kurdish
Panjwin Mustard October–November 1983 3,001 Iranian/Kurdish
Majnoon Island Mustard February–March 1984 2,500 Iranians
al-Basrah Tabun March 1984 50-100 Iranians
Hawizah Marsh Mustard & Tabun March 1985 3,000 Iranians
al-Faw Mustard & Tabun February 1986 8,000 to 10,000 Iranians
Um ar-Rasas Mustard December 1986 1,000s Iranians
al-Basrah Mustard & Tabun April 1987 5,000 Iranians
Sumar/Mehran Mustard & nerve agent October 1987 3,000 Iranians
Halabjah Mustard & nerve agent March 1988 7,000s Kurdish/Iranian
al-Faw Mustard & nerve agent April 1988 1,000s Iranians
Fish Lake Mustard & nerve agent May 1988 100s or 1,000s Iranians
Majnoon Islands Mustard & nerve agent June 1988 100s or 1,000s Iranians
South-central border Mustard & nerve agent July 1988 100s or 1,000s Iranians
an-Najaf -
Karbala area Nerve agent & CS March 1991 Unknown

Can you also take the time to generate a list of infractions by other dictators
of the world,

Saddam was indeed a cruel dictator, but the point is that what is happening now in the name of war against terrorism is not seen and perceived the same way by those that are directly suffering because of it and you need to realize why those people think the way they do, and since your understanding is based on what you see in the media, you will need to find a few other sources to fully comprehend what is exactly happening in the AFFECTED part of the world that we fail to see, hear or give any weight because of a variety of reasons.

I don't want to generate any hostilities between you and me. I am positive that we will extend each other help and care if needed, after all we are all humans with feelings and mutually respect that bond.

[Fisherpeak]

Hey Winch,a TRILLION PEOPLE SLAUGHTERED IN THE LAST 20 YEARS!!!!
There are 7 billion people on earth now,might want to rethink your numbers.

[Peace786]

Taliban have in the past targeted food and convoys and is well documeted by the un and red cross

You are a professional, and an educated man with an above average level of maturity. Here is a serious FACT for you to ponder:

Do you know that Taliban completely eliminated the production and trade of HEROIN and OPIUM? because they regarded it not permissible in Islam,
This will be a shock to you since we suffer from media fever, but do your research and verify.

[Gust]

JUST the economic sanctions alone by the US and its allies, not the war, killed 576,000 Iraqi children due to lack of medicines and health care.


http://www.nytimes.com/1995/12/01/world/iraq-sanctions-kill-children-un-reports.html

Your stats are the first Gulf War 576,000

These stats are the 2nd Gulf War 655,000

1,231,000

and these 2nd G War figures were compiled by Johns Hopkins and that number is only up to 2006.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html

[Big Daddy Badger]

I'm not sure that you got my point. You seemed to be suggesting we were more compassionate in days gone by than now. I say that is not necessarily so, but that when necessary, compassion has and will likely always take a back seat to national security. I am not aware of the circumstances around the compassion that was extended by Canada to Hitler youth after WWII of which you speak, but I will take your word for it. Presumably then, it was felt that we could afford to be compassionate because the war was over, the threat gone.


Thank you for the clarification.
I wasn't exactly sure what you were driving at so made a bit of a leap of faith.:)

We were more understanding of child soldier then... that was what I was trying to say.
I did not say that we were more empathetic across the board...

In fact... in one post I referred to a time that was tougher... in general yet we were more understanding in the subject area.

Canada did lock up the Japanese and others during the war.
I know one guy whose grandfather had served in the Canadian Army during WWI yet found himself behind a fence during WWII because he had been born in an enemy nation.
We also denied jews sanctuary.

We were not perfect but we did recognize the difference between an adult thatmade chices of his own free will and a kid that was steered, contrilled and conditioned... railroaded into doing things he likely would not have done had he been presented with any other tangible and attainable choice.

We could have tried to de-rogram him and help him but instead we abdicated our resoponsability and crossed our fingers by leaving him in Gitmo for a decade.
Well he's hime now and by the looks of things he will be on day passes within a few weeks time.

Would we noit be better off if we'd had time to work with him here?
The guy is abit of a dark horse.
He might harbour resentment or he might be fine.

All I know is that we'd probably have a better understanding and an increased chance of a good outcome if we had not washed our hands of all responsability and if we'd instead done the right thing by a Canadian youth 10years ago.

It'd probably cost us a heck of a lot less as well...

[Big Daddy Badger]

You are a professional, and an educated man with an above average level of maturity. Here is a serious FACT for you to ponder:

Do you know that Taliban completely eliminated the production and trade of HEROIN and OPIUM? because they regarded it not permissible in Islam,
This will be a shock to you since we suffer from media fever, but do your research and verify.

Along that line oif thought.

Does anyone think that it is a co-incidence that the use of heroin suddenly spiked after the war started?
And does anyione think its only Timmy Taliban that is making money of that poison?

They... the Taliban...also managed to all but eliminate the trade in dancing boys and a few other things.

Seems to me that our new friends not much better than our enemies sometimes.

[recce43]

Can you also take the time to generate a list of infractions by other dictators
of the world,

Saddam was indeed a cruel dictator, but the point is that what is happening now in the name of war against terrorism is not seen and perceived the same way by those that are directly suffering because of it and you need to realize why those people think the way they do, and since your understanding is based on what you see in the media, you will need to find a few other sources to fully comprehend what is exactly happening in the AFFECTED part of the world that we fail to see, hear or give any weight because of a variety of reasons.

I don't want to generate any hostilities between you and me. I am positive that we will extend each other help and care if needed, after all we are all humans with feelings and mutually respect that bond.

I have seen first hand what atrocities people can do humans are the cruellest cretures on this planet

[recce43]

Can you also take the time to generate a list of infractions by other dictators
of the world,

Saddam was indeed a cruel dictator, but the point is that what is happening now in the name of war against terrorism is not seen and perceived the same way by those that are directly suffering because of it and you need to realize why those people think the way they do, and since your understanding is based on what you see in the media, you will need to find a few other sources to fully comprehend what is exactly happening in the AFFECTED part of the world that we fail to see, hear or give any weight because of a variety of reasons.

I don't want to generate any hostilities between you and me. I am positive that we will extend each other help and care if needed, after all we are all humans with feelings and mutually respect that bond.

Here is your list


Name Country Time in Power Regime type Notable Events After...
Joseph Stalin USSR 1924-1953 Communist Revolutionary regime died in office
Adolph Hitler Germany 1933-1945 Fascist World War II, Jewish Holocaust committed suicide
Mao Tse-Tung China 1945-1976 Communist Revolutionary regime died in office


Dictators responsible for horrible atrocities (at least 1 million dead)

Name Country Time in Power Notable Events Regime type After...
King Leopold II Belgium 1865-1909 Colonization of the Congo Monarch died in office
Kaiser Wilhelm II Germany 1888-1918 World War I Monarch fled, died in exile
Czar Nicholas II Russia 1894-1917 World War I Monarch overthrown, killed
Enver Pasha, member of triumvirate dictatorship Turkey 1913-1918 Armenian genocide Military fled, died in rebellion
Vladimir Lenin USSR 1917-1924 Russian Civil War Communist died in office
Emperor Hirohito Japan 1926-1989 World War II Monarch died in office
Prime Minister Hirota Koki 1936-1937 Military resigned, tried, executed
Prime Minister Tojo Hideki 1941-1944 Military resigned, tried, executed
President Chiang Kai-shek China / Taiwan 1928-1949 Chinese Civil War Military died in office
President Ho Chi Minh North Vietnam 1945-1969 Vietnam War Communist died in office
President Kim Il Sung North Korea 1948-1994 Korean War Communist died in office
President Yahya Khan Pakistan 1969-1971 Indo-Pakistan War Military resigned, died
President Saddam Hussein Iraq 1969-2003 Iran-Iraq War, Kurdish genocide one party state overthrown, tried, executed
Prime Minister Pol Pot Cambodia 1975-1979 Cambodian genocide Communist overthrown, arrested, died awaiting trial
President Kim Jong Il North Korea 1994- chronic famines Communist still in power


Generally bad dictators (over 10,000 killed)

President Kemal Ataturk Turkey 1920-1938 one party state died in office
Prime Minister Benito Mussolini Italy 1922-1943 Fascist overthrown, killed
Prime Minister Antonio de Salazar Portugal 1932-1968 Fascist resigned, died
Francisco Franco Spain 1939-1975 Fascist died in office
Prime Minister Ion Antonescu Romania 1940-1944 Fascist overthrown, tried, executed
Ante Pavelic Croatia 1941-1945 Fascist overthrown, died in exile
Gheorghe Gheorghiu Romania 1945-1965 Communist died in office
President Tito Yugoslavia 1945-1980 Communist died in office
President Yakubu Gowon Nigeria 1966-1976 Military overthrown, still living
President Suharto Indonesia 1967-1997 Military resigned, still living
President Idi Amin Uganda 1971-1980 Military overthrown, died in exile
President Mengistu Haile Ethiopia 1974-1991 Communist fled, lives in exile
President Le Duan Vietnam 1976-1986 Communist died in office
President Babrak Karmal Afghanistan 1979-1987 Communist resigned, died in exile
President Slobodan Milosevic Yugoslavia 1997-2000 Fascist resigned, arrested, died awaiting trial
President Omar al-Bashir Sudan 1989- Military

[Peace786]

Along that line oif thought.

Does anyone think that it is a co-incidence that the use of heroin suddenly spiked after the war started?
And does anyione think its only Timmy Taliban that is making money of that poison?

They... the Taliban...also managed to all but eliminate the trade in dancing boys and a few other things.

Seems to me that our new friends not much better than our enemies sometimes.

Now that you mentioned, I recall that it tore my heart when I watched the documentary Dancing Boys of Afghanistan, and was both sad and enraged, and the fact that Taliban stopped it as well deeming it against Islamic teachings.

Pesky, I have to say that I admire and appreciate that being a Canadian how YOU have been able to keep yourself abreast of what transpires in some corners of the world that we don't see and hear! keep it up!

[recce43]

You know all debates are good for the soul even if you are agianst which one is saying it does make you use your head to think hmmmm ..I think it makes more educated in the happenings around the world and our own back yard.. in some countries if did this you would be arrested for open forum speaking . We should all count ourselves lucky that we can argue back in forth

[Peace786]

You know all debates are good for the soul even if you are agianst which one is saying it does make you use your head to think hmmmm ..I think it makes more educated in the happenings around the world and our own back yard.. in some countries if did this you would be arrested for open forum speaking . We should all count ourselves lucky that we can argue back in forth

You are absolutely right friend. I love this country, and pray that it is saved from all evil.

[youbetyourass]

He will be out soon and start work somewhere and live a normal life, and ignore all the haters, he did his time, jus like the other criminals who come out of jail.

[Peace786]

Your stats are the first Gulf War 576,000

These stats are the 2nd Gulf War 655,000

1,231,000

and these 2nd G War figures were compiled by Johns Hopkins and that number is only up to 2006.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html


Thank you Gust!!

[OpenRange]

Appears I have a new head that needs to adorn my wall. Only one I'm missing to date is a terrorist, I have a nice spot all picked out and ready.

[dances with gophers]

I'll save my compassion for the friends and family of the NATO soldier he murdered in Afghanistan.
X4

[Wilbur1005]

Well we managed to take brain washed Hitler Youth and turn them into good Canadians.
Many of whom served in our Military in places like Korea.

I just find it difficult to understand that Canada was unique in the way we brushed our hand of our citizens.
We allowed a youth to be tortured and then left him to rot in prison for longer than most adult murders in Canada.
Like it or not... he was engaged in war.... and what he did was not murder any more than it was murder being committed by the Americans that attacked that compound.

Yes, he was acting in a soldier capacity. He threw a grenade. I feel for the soldier family that suffered. You or I would have done the same thing in the same situation.

[Grizzly Adams]

Actually good news Omar is in Alberta. Wonder what his life expectancy would be here, compared to TO, if he escaped ? :D

Grizz

[Big Daddy Badger]

Now that you mentioned, I recall that it tore my heart when I watched the documentary Dancing Boys of Afghanistan, and was both sad and enraged, and the fact that Taliban stopped it as well deeming it against Islamic teachings.

Pesky, I have to say that I admire and appreciate that being a Canadian how YOU have been able to keep yourself abreast of what transpires in some corners of the world that we don't see and hear! keep it up!

Thank you.

Its not just boys either... its hard to believe what is acceptable over there.
I'm not even sure why they care what women do... their attention seems to be everywhere else...
Yikes... I can't even think of a socially acceptable way to say...

[Big Daddy Badger]

Yes, he was acting in a soldier capacity. He threw a grenade. I feel for the soldier family that suffered. You or I would have done the same thing in the same situation.

Yes.
I do feel for their loss but that is war and professional soldiers at least try to accept that it is not personal... it comes with the job.

[ATF]

Welcome Back Kadr.
Have fun with the sweathogs!!

[greylynx]

We can all yak about this poor misled individual.

Here is a question the liberals do not like.

How much is this person costing the "Albertan" taxpayer?

Yes, the Albertan taxpayer....go figure.

[Big Daddy Badger]

We can all yak about this poor misled individual.

Here is a question the liberals do not like.

How much is this person costing the "Albertan" taxpayer?

Yes, the Albertan taxpayer....go figure.

Strcitly from a pragmatic and money perspective here...

I have a better question...
How much is this all going to cost us by the time we pay for an education and training and the lawsuit that will surely follow?

Its a done deal... and you know he'll win because the Supreme Court already determined that his rights were violated.
That won't stop those egg heads in Ottawa from fighting it though.
It'll be good money after bad and a slide further to the left to "prevent" it from happening again.

If we'd just sucked it up and shouldered the burden in the first place we could have cut our losses.

We could have taken the high road and turned a loss into a win.
Now... its a lose lose lose situation.

[Kanonfodder]

He will be offed in prison it's going to be a non isdue

[Big Daddy Badger]

He will be offed in prison it's going to be a non isdue

I doubt it.

They are going to be beside themselves worrying about that.
I'd imagine that housing him will cost more than the average simply becauuse of the percieved risk to his person.

And lets face it... even if you hate the guys guts and do not accept that he was a victim himself.... there are guys in that prison that are more deserving yet they manage to survive.

Doesn't sound like he will be there long anyway....

[silver]

Yes, he was acting in a soldier capacity. He threw a grenade. I feel for the soldier family that suffered. You or I would have done the same thing in the same situation.

I believe what happened was after the fire fight was over, the medic went in to give to give aid to the enemy wounded. That was when the grenade was thrown.

[trophyboy]

The oxygen thief should have been executed along with all other pieces of shyt like him!

[Big Daddy Badger]

Welcome Back Kadr.
Have fun with the sweathogs!!

I don't care how you feel about this... THAT is funny....lol

[Stinky Buffalo]

Welcome Back Kadr.
Have fun with the sweathogs!!


I don't care how you feel about this... THAT is funny....lol

Heh! First thing I thought of when seeing the thread title... Almost scary how alike we think! :D

[Big Daddy Badger]

Heh! First thing I thought of when seeing the thread title... Almost scary how alike we think! :D

I'm actually a bit miffed at myself for not thinking of it first:)

I feel so unworthy...

[Hagalaz]

Or a young man that was vivctimiosed first by his family and then us when he was forced to become a boy soldier.


Its funny how in this day and age.... we have less compassion and understanding for this than we did while dealing with Hitler youth after WWII.
We treat dedicated adult criminals better than we treated that 15 year old boy who had been brain washed by his family.

Yeah, my heart just bleeds for this terrorist.......

I didn't think that you would join the ranks of those who treat criminals as victims.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Yeah, my heart just bleeds for this terrorist.......

I didn't think that you would join the ranks of those who treat criminals as victims.

I didn't join those ranks but I see that perhaps you have joined the ranks of those that blame victims.


I also didn't think that you''d join the ranks of those that support war crimes and the violation of constitutional rights and of law..

He was 15.

What would any of us at that age have done better than him if presented with the same sort of parents and circumstance?

How anyone can fail to see that an injustice was done to that kid is beyond me.
Off all the boy soldiers in all the wars this one is somehow so much worse than the others.

So much for ideals.
There isn't much left to fight about once we reduce ourselves to the enemies narrow and harsh view of things.

[Hagalaz]

I didn't join those ranks but I see that perhaps you have joined the ranks of those that blame victims.


I also didn't think that you''d join the ranks of those that support war crimes and the violation of constitutional rights and of law..

He was 15.

What would any of us at that age have done better than him if presented with the same sort of parents and circumstance?

How anyone can fail to see that an injustice was done to that kid is beyond me.
Off all the boy soldiers in all the wars this one is somehow so much worse than the others.

So much for ideals.
There isn't much left to fight about once we reduce ourselves to the enemies narrow and harsh view of things.

Oh please, he isn't a victim. Unless you want to make him out to be one that is.

You will never get me to feel sorry for a terrorist, no matter how you spin it.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Oh please, he isn't a victim. Unless you want to make him out to be one that is.

You will never get me to feel sorry for a terrorist, no matter how you spin it.

Well lets just imagine that you grew up in that home... surrounded by those peolle and then got wisked away to an indoctrination training centre then parked in the middle of a firefight.

What would you do?

There is a reson why basic training for soldiers is conducted the way it is.
It breaks down aversion and brainwashes.

Young men and women go in and then come out changed a few weeks later.

What chance would a boy who has undergone that process for basically his whole life have?

If you really believe he had a choice then you must havenever belonged to something like a sports team, a military or similar organization.
They must have fogotten about Patty Hearst and Stolckholm syndrome.

Peer pressure and group mentalities work against individuals and the ability of same to make independant choices.
Removed from that environment people will begin to revert to a normal view.

Finally... please do not make up facts.
He wasn't a terrorist... he never committed an act of terror.

He was an armed combatant...in a war that he never started and his party was attacked.
IOW he was no more a terrorist than any other soldier in that theatre of war on that day.

The only real difference is they volunteered as adults and had the opportunity to make clear choices for themselves unlike a youth that was dragged into the whole mess by the very people that he should have been able to trust.

[Kanonfodder]

He threw a grenade at medics helping wounded from both sides, he wasn't in a uniform and he is a Canadian fighting in another country , I for one won't shed a tear when he's killed in prison

[CNP]

Well lets just imagine that you grew up in that home... surrounded by those peolle and then got wisked away to an indoctrination training centre then parked in the middle of a firefight.

What would you do?

There is a reson why basic training for soldiers is conducted the way it is.
It breaks down aversion and brainwashes.

Young men and women go in and then come out changed a few weeks later.

What chance would a boy who has undergone that process for basically his whole life have?

If you really believe he had a choice then you must havenever belonged to something like a sports team, a military or similar organization.
They must have fogotten about Patty Hearst and Stolckholm syndrome.

Peer pressure and group mentalities work against individuals and the ability of same to make independant choices.
Removed from that environment people will begin to revert to a normal view.

Finally... please do not make up facts.
He wasn't a terrorist... he never committed an act of terror.

He was an armed combatant...in a war that he never started and his party was attacked.
IOW he was no more a terrorist than any other soldier in that theatre of war on that day.

The only real difference is they volunteered as adults and had the opportunity to make clear choices for themselves unlike a youth that was dragged into the whole mess by the very people that he should have been able to trust.

Well lets just imagine that you grew up in that home... surrounded by those peolle and then got wisked away to an indoctrination training centre then parked in the middle of a firefight.

What would you do?


? That is a rhetorical statement. But, according to his lawyer in Edmonton, Dennis Ebney, Kahdr has no radical viewpoints. If we are to believe his lawyer, then your assertion that his actions are a result of his upbringing, does not hold water.

I'll answer your rhetorical question by saying that given the firefight and aerial bombing, miraculously surviving, knowing who you are fighting against, I would have known better than to pick up the fight. So there, your question has more than one response.

Or maybe he was not radicalized because he made a choice not to go in that direction. All this is hypothetical, just as all your assertions are. The lawyers claim that his client has no radical viewpoints, lets just say he is representing his client.....with great enthusiasm.


There is a reson why basic training for soldiers is conducted the way it is.
It breaks down aversion and brainwashes.

Young men and women go in and then come out changed a few weeks later.


He is not/was not a soldier by any definition. I suppose you are referring to traditional soldiers when you talk about this brainwashing. Traditional soldiers know that when they knowingly operate outside the law, even if ordered to do so, are personally responsible for their actions. The military does not train soldiers to become unthinking blind followers.

If Kadhr is not a soldiier he is an unlawful combatant - an insurgent. He was not acting for any state. No one invaded "HIS" country. His country is Canada. Not being a soldier himself, killing a US soldier is then a crime. He was convicted of this crime.

he was no more a terrorist than any other soldier in that theatre of war on that day

He was convicted of that too. Videos of him making IED's, the kind that injure and kill ISAF troops were used as evidence against him.

His upbringing? Can that be used as a convenient defence? He is a victim? If I ever get brainwashed into thinking that Khadr is an innocent victim.................then I've been brainwashed myself.

[Big Daddy Badger]

? That is a rhetorical statement. But, according to his lawyer in Edmonton, Dennis Ebney, Kahdr has no radical viewpoints. If we are to believe his lawyer, then your assertion that his actions are a result of his upbringing, does not hold water.

I'll answer your rhetorical question by saying that given the firefight and aerial bombing, miraculously surviving, knowing who you are fighting against, I would have known better than to pick up the fight. So there, your question has more than one response.

Or maybe he was not radicalized because he made a choice not to go in that direction. All this is hypothetical, just as all your assertions are. The lawyers claim that his client has no radical viewpoints, lets just say he is representing his client.....with great enthusiasm.

He is not/was not a soldier by any definition. I suppose you are referring to traditional soldiers when you talk about this brainwashing. Traditional soldiers know that when they knowingly operate outside the law, even if ordered to do so, are personally responsible for their actions. The military does not train soldiers to become unthinking blind followers.

If Kadhr is not a soldiier he is an unlawful combatant - an insurgent. He was not acting for any state. No one invaded "HIS" country. His country is Canada. Not being a soldier himself, killing a US soldier is then a crime. He was convicted of this crime.



He was convicted of that too. Videos of him making IED's, the kind that injure and kill ISAF troops were used as evidence against him.

His upbringing? Can that be used as a convenient defence? He is a victim? If I ever get brainwashed into thinking that Khadr is an innocent victim.................then I've been brainwashed myself.

Whatever REMF

George Washington was a terrorsit as well then I guess.

The laws were written to be catch-alls... your facts are scued.
You should no better but... you do not or worse... you do but you do not care.

[recce43]

I guess we will see what kind a person this nice canadian is when he is let out of prison .
To me he is a traiter and a murder .
And Iam Not a REMF . Iam Recce Sqdn

[Okotokian]

We let thousands of ex-Nazi soldiers into this country, didn't we? Heck, my buddy's dad was one. How did we rehabilitate that lot?

[recce43]

We let thousands of ex-Nazi soldiers into this country, didn't we? Heck, my buddy's dad was one. How did we rehabilitate that lot?

Ex Nazi s Where not traitors to there country

[TomCanuck]

We let thousands of ex-Nazi soldiers into this country, didn't we? Heck, my buddy's dad was one. How did we rehabilitate that lot?

Ya, but ze nazi party was kaput, no? We rehabilitated them by decimating their forces.

Radical Islam is a going/growing concern. Canadians should bring something to the table. That whole family is a pox on our homeland.

[Hagalaz]

Finally... please do not make up facts.
He wasn't a terrorist... he never committed an act of terror.

Do not leave facts out, even if they don't suit your opinion. Everything about him screams terrorist, his actions included.

I have agree with Kanonfodder's statement, I won't shed a tear either.

[Okotokian]

Ex Nazi s Where not traitors to there country

yes, but they were enemies to our country and our way of life, and to humanity in many cases. Yet they seemed to be able to shuck off their indoctrination and become law-abiding Canadians. The point of the matter is whether he is rehabilitatable or not. Child soldiers seem to be, ex-nazis seem to be. Not sure why he couldn't be. Guess we will see.

[Big Daddy Badger]

I guess we will see what kind a person this nice canadian is when he is let out of prison .
To me he is a traiter and a murder .
And Iam Not a REMF . Iam Recce Sqdn


And you are obviously not a professional soldier either.. or you'd know damn well that we violated a number of agreements and laws in this process.

He was a rebel...the enemy and all of that but you can't honestly call him a terorist or a murderer just because the US decided to redefine what those words mean.

By their definition...anyone who opposed ytheir military action with arms was a terrorsit and a murderer.
How convenient... that way you can ignore the GC, torture, jail indefinatley and thwart the Red Cross.... you know... basically set up concentration camps.

Not exactly the Canadian way of doing bussiness I'd say.

But hey...who cares about that little buggers rights?
I have mine and you have yours and we can just pay lip service to everyone elses.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Do not leave facts out, even if they don't suit your opinion. Everything about him screams terrorist, his actions included.

I have agree with Kanonfodder's statement, I won't shed a tear either.

What facts did I leave out?

See?

There ya go... making stuff up again...

Fact is that in accordance with an agreement that Canada entered into before he was snapped up... he was a child soldier and should have been treated that way.
Fact is... had we done that he would not have been convicted of anything based upon laws by which almost anyone could be convicted for any action that opposed the any US military invasion.

IOW if the US attacked Canada tomorrow... and you took up arms to defend your country... you could be labeled and convicted as a terrorist and a murderer.

The kid was an irregular in a military of sorts.
To deny that is to admit that we went to war and attacked civilians.
And that we employed terrorists and murderers in the form of contractors... to help us wage that war.
Like it or not the fact is... we have recognized those organizations as militaries in every way but by name.
The same way the west had to recognize other such formations in the past.

You don't get to have it both ways.

[Hagalaz]

See?

There ya go... making stuff up again...

So anything that doesn't fit your narrow view of the situation is considered to be "made up"? Get a grip, man.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why you feel an ounce of sympathy for this guy. Its clear that he is a terrorist at worst or a traitor in the least, yet you talk about him as if he is some sort of folk hero.

I never thought I would hear someone on AO defending a person like Kadr. This is definitely surprising & a little bit troubling.

[recce43]

i shed no tears for any criminal , or anybody that supports the UN

[Rusty P. Bucket]

What facts did I leave out?

....
blah blah blah...

You don't get to have it both ways.

I dunno, but that seems to me to be a fine job of sucking and blowing at the same time!

Just curious, Pesky? If you were fighting as a civilian combatant against the eeeeevil American imperialists...would you cut off their hands after you killed your victims? And pose for pictures...? Is that how fine upstanding Canadian citizens behave in your estimation...?

LOL!

[jryley]

Very simple to understand for those that have a soft heart and feel for fellow human beings, economic sanctions crippled Iraq and it could not import medicines to save lives of children, considering that the people of Iraq already had to put up with a cruel dictator like Saddam, the sanctions surpassed the cruelty of Saddam.

I am curious to know who or what group has made you into a complete fool?

you cant honestly beleive anything you are typing???? you sound like the spoiled kid down the street that blames the fact his 14 year old girlfriend dumped him on the fact he cant get a job. Boo effing hoo

[Tipperary]

I see both sides of the "argument."

But like recce43 and a few others, I find it slightly entertaining and at the same time disappointing that the bleeding hearts speak of rehab and such as if they have experience with it. It's funny how the "REMF" comment came out... Usually the people who talk the loudest about their experiences have the least to provide. I'm not calling you out on your experiences Pesky but when you called Recce a REMF that raised a flag for me.

Pesky (BDB), I have a question for you. For all your "real world experience" (which you say you have some...), have you actually worked in any field related to rehabilitation of criminals, or know any successfully rehabilitated criminals?

And when I say "criminals", I'm not talking about the thieves or drunk drivers, but the predators who victimize people regularly.

As with others here, both in Canada and out of this country I've dealt with people who've attempted to kill me. Both in Canada and abroad I've seen children in deplorable conditions, suffering in a way that makes me believe hell truly is on earth. I've seen and heard of people returning from jail after a panel of "Judges" deemed them rehabilitated, only to commit serious offences including murder.

I agree with recce43 and others who bring up a good point. What would you do with a feral dog that is hostile and routinely bites people? You would put it down. Enough said.

Putting the rights of the predators above the rights of the victims is what our society is doing and THAT is wrong.

As far as the topic of KHADR is concerned. Well, his lawyer of course is going to say anything he can to get him out of prison. He murdered US soldiers at 15 years old. When I was 15 I sure knew right from wrong; circumstances aside. Is he rehabilitated? Maybe, but the alternative is very risky and again, MORE victims could be made to uphold the "rights" of a convicted killer.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Ex Nazi s Where not traitors to there country

Really?

Do you forget that the Nazi party had fans in the US, Canada, the UK?
Including a rather prominent RoyalGFamily member?

The fact is that when governments are allowed to ignore international law. treaties/agreements they signed, individual citizen rights, spy on their own people, and target then for assasination... we all lose our rights.

Khadr sets a precedent that we, our children and our grandchildren will pay for.

Noen of us should feel sefucre in our rights and liberties anymore.

They mean nothing now.... we just took a giant step towards the sort of government that everyone villifies.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Do not leave facts out, even if they don't suit your opinion. Everything about him screams terrorist, his actions included.

I have agree with Kanonfodder's statement, I won't shed a tear either.

I didn't.

Fact is he was convicted under a law that castr a very wide net.

If making IED's makes you a terrorist... we should quit teaching our own guys how to do that.

Making IED's is a pretty basic soldiering skill.

It is how they are deployed that is the difference between terrorism and being a guerilla fighter.

[Big Daddy Badger]

yes, but they were enemies to our country and our way of life, and to humanity in many cases. Yet they seemed to be able to shuck off their indoctrination and become law-abiding Canadians. The point of the matter is whether he is rehabilitatable or not. Child soldiers seem to be, ex-nazis seem to be. Not sure why he couldn't be. Guess we will see.

And another good point raised by OKS.

[Big Daddy Badger]

I see both sides of the "argument."

But like recce43 and a few others, I find it slightly entertaining and at the same time disappointing that the bleeding hearts speak of rehab and such as if they have experience with it. It's funny how the "REMF" comment came out... Usually the people who talk the loudest about their experiences have the least to provide. I'm not calling you out on your experiences Pesky but when you called Recce a REMF that raised a flag for me.

Pesky (BDB), I have a question for you. For all your "real world experience" (which you say you have some...), have you actually worked in any field related to rehabilitation of criminals, or know any successfully rehabilitated criminals?

And when I say "criminals", I'm not talking about the thieves or drunk drivers, but the predators who victimize people regularly.

As with others here, both in Canada and out of this country I've dealt with people who've attempted to kill me. Both in Canada and abroad I've seen children in deplorable conditions, suffering in a way that makes me believe hell truly is on earth. I've seen and heard of people returning from jail after a panel of "Judges" deemed them rehabilitated, only to commit serious offences including murder.

I agree with recce43 and others who bring up a good point. What would you do with a feral dog that is hostile and routinely bites people? You would put it down. Enough said.

Putting the rights of the predators above the rights of the victims is what our society is doing and THAT is wrong.

As far as the topic of KHADR is concerned. Well, his lawyer of course is going to say anything he can to get him out of prison. He murdered US soldiers at 15 years old. When I was 15 I sure knew right from wrong; circumstances aside. Is he rehabilitated? Maybe, but the alternative is very risky and again, MORE victims could be made to uphold the "rights" of a convicted killer.

First off... I never called Recce 43 a REMF.... that was for the Zoomie:)

As for the innuendo... I rather doubt you'd be so bold if you had to look me in the eye.So save it... it does nothing to futher your argument and its just plain petty sniping.
And you know... nobody likes a sniper.
I have served for over a quarter century now and almost all of them in operational units... ioncluding the one that Recce43 belongs to now. I get a veterans benefit and have seen a couple different war zones and child soldiers.
You'll perhaps understand then that I do not feel a need to legitimise that, prove it or explain myself to you.

Finally...your criminal reference is inappropriate to the discussion.

My position is that he was a boy soldier... not a criminal.
Its ridiculous.
For one why would I legitimise the argument that he is criminal... counter to what I have stated is my belief?
Provide us your own information regarding the success of rehabilitation of criminals.

Aside form that your position and that question suggests that our own people need rehab and might not be able to find their off-switch when they come home.
Yet... so far... that hasn't been a problem.
Similarly there has been much written about the rehab of Hilter Youth and Child Soldiers. All of which does support my position.
Its out there... all you have to do is look for it rather than hold to an opinion that is not supported by anything other than a thirst for revenge and anger.

How is it that we can believe that an adult that chose his lot in life can turn it off when appropriate but we can't believe that a boy that was forced into his and who was co-opertive throughout his imprissonment could not undergo a similar change?

Its common sense really.

If we raised you in a household that hated dogs... then took you to a country where you were surrounded by people who hated dogs... then taught you how to kill dogs and rienforced all of this by teaching you the only way to the afterlife was through killing dogs.... you probably throw yourself into that line of work.

If we removed you from that environment and showed you that dogs could be friendly, and useful and that most people lkike dogs... we'd probably be able to turn you around.

[Tipperary]

First off... I never called Recce 43 a REMF.... that was for the Zoomie:) Fair enough

As for the innuendo... I rather doubt you'd be so bold if you had to look me in the eye.So save it... it does nothing to futher your argument and its just plain petty sniping. I assume you are referring to me asking about your experience. I would ask/say the same thing in person. I'm not the type to chest thump and so on. Besides, for all we know we might actually know each other or at least of each other, it is a small army.


Finally...your criminal reference is inappropriate to the discussion. I think it is perfectly relevant. I am referring to "our" ability to actually rehabilitate a person who is down a certain path in their life. IE, "career criminals", indoctrinated terrorists (KHADR), etc.

My position is that he was a boy soldier... not a criminal.
Its ridiculous.
For one why would I legitimise the argument that he is criminal... counter to what I have stated is my belief?
Provide us your own information regarding the success of rehabilitation of criminals. I don't have the opinion that truly successful rehabilitation exists for certain people. I don't want to dig up the numerous times that rehab has failed, but if you insist I could find you several examples.

Aside form that your position and that question suggests that our own people need rehab and might not be able to find their off-switch when they come home.
Yet... so far... that hasn't been a problem. Are you referring to our troops when the return home from combat? If so, that's a whole different scenario... Real soldiers choose that path as a calling to "fight" for their country. Real, "professional" (as you said) soldiers would never kill innocent people, blow up schools, rape, and so on. When these insurgents and terrorists choose those methods to further their cause of domination, they are no longer human in my opinion.

Similarly there has been much written about the rehab of Hilter Youth and Child Soldiers. All of which does support my position.
Its out there... all you have to do is look for it rather than hold to an opinion that is not supported by anything other than a thirst for revenge and anger. My opinion is not supported by a thirst for revenge and anger. My opinion is very much one of compassion; however, self preservation (for my family, friends, and country) is more important. Besides, Hitler Youth and other child soldiers are a different category (for the most part).

How is it that we can believe that an adult that chose his lot in life can turn it off when appropriate but we can't believe that a boy that was forced into his and who was co-opertive throughout his imprissonment could not undergo a similar change? How do you know he was cooperative? All we generally know is what the media has fed us. . . or we might have inside information. Regardless, I don't know if KHADR is rehabilitated or not. In reality, I hope he is. I hope he is able to turn his life around. Do I want to give him the chance, not really, but at the same time we really have no choice but to give him another shot.

Its common sense really.

If we raised you in a household that hated dogs... then took you to a country where you were surrounded by people who hated dogs... then taught you how to kill dogs and rienforced all of this by teaching you the only way to the afterlife was through killing dogs.... you probably throw yourself into that line of work. I don't disagree with you on this point one bit.

If we removed you from that environment and showed you that dogs could be friendly, and useful and that most people lkike dogs... we'd probably be able to turn you around. AND, my only disagreement is the word "probably". We would hopefully be able to turn a person around. But if that person got released, and went back into the same community that fostered the hatred for dogs in the first place, and that person was able to get straight back into that community and be treated as a hero for hating dogs, there is little chance that person would be rehabilitated




Our opinions aren't that far off... Although I believe in the importance of attempting rehabilitation, at the same time I've seen how it fails. I've seen how these predators mock our system, and play it so that they can keep preying on the innocent. And that isn't just referring to within Canada.

[Big Daddy Badger]

I'll try to get this in order.

I hold that there is a huge difference between a career criminal and a kid foillowing a path ste out for him by his father.

I agree... not everyone can be rehabilitated but... if you get em while they are young... you have a really good chance to turn em around.
How many times has a young mans future been saved that way?
How many guys have you met in our military that were saved that way?
No matter... the kid would have been watched like a hawk no matter what.
It would have been an acceptable calculated risk.

I never inferred anything... you did.
I simply applied the same logic to the other side of the argument.
And to be fair... plenty of professional soldiers have done bad things.
If those individuals can find their off switch... we can find the off switch for a 15 year old boy who was (by then) no doubt feeling very much betrayed and disallusioned.

We know he was co-opertive by the testimony of the US Authorities, his guards and the guy that prosecuted him.
Its a matter of public record.
He was a model prisoner... contrary to what many here like to claim.

Probably.

Well there are go guarantees in life.
Thats what makes it interesting.
Thats why so many do serve... including yourself probably.
He who dares...wins... no guts no glory and all that rot.
Nothing worth having or getting comes without risk.
Yes he could return toi that community... and once he did... a commuted sentence could be imposed immediatly.
Its not like someone won't be monitoring him very closely.

If we had started this at age 15... he would have been followed up on for the last decade.
And that would have given us a much more control and influence than we will have now.

Honestly I think he will probably be fine.
The US seemed to make a significant effort to rehabilitate him... to their credit and our shame.
I also think that he will be unwelcome or untrusted in that other community...he's damaged goods.

He'll probably just try to blend in with the moderates and lead a quiet life..wishing to be forgotten.
Thats what most child soldiers seem to try to do.
For sure anything he does from now on will be scruitenized and weighted with some bias.

Thanks for backing off a bit there.... no hard feeling.:)

[Purple Farmer]

Well Big Daddy Badger I have read every post in this thread and can say I hope you got the debate you wanted. The whole Khadr episode underscores so many wrong things. We will have to disagree as to what should be done with him now. Clearly you have personal experiences as do others, clearly you have seen things, as have others. Remf is derogatory and you know it was when you typed it, telling a guy he's not a professional soldier is wrong and you know you owe an apology there.

You have likely done things that you are not proud of during service, as have others. Put the energy and passion you have regarding this topic to use. Go teach what you know and what you feel, just don't be surprised when you get push back, not everyone is ready.

Feel free to pm me if you would like further discussion.

[Wild&Free]

[QUOTE=Ronji;1984003]

My feeling is that regardless of what Khadr is or is noit guilty of... we lost some of our moral highground when we failed to even try.

Seems to be a common occurrence with our current government

When you are dealing with fundamentalists it doesn't matter which religion they follow.

All you closet xenophobes need to acknowledge that the issue is extremists, not Muslim.

Something that all fundamentalists across the board have in common is their conservatism, and far right ideologies.

The fundamentalists here scare me more then the ones overseas.



Does Canadian citizenship not hold responsibility before rights - or is that just for us poor bastages paying all the taxes ...

TBD



What are your responsibilities as a Canadian citizen? Obey its laws, and follow the treaties your nation has signed I think is one. Our entire country neglected it's responsibilities in regards to Omar.

You're absolutly right! I now believe that all our armed forces should be kept out of these other countries. In the beginning I too drank the media kool-aid but I now believe that our aide both armed and financial should not be offered or continued in countries that are based in a religion that does not uphold the same rights and values as ours.

Secondly, yes this intelligent world does have a system for all creatures. That system is evolution and natural selection not some type of diety.

And how can I address a creator that does not exist?? But I will not try and argue the point. If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people.

Us vs. Them. Believe as I believe or forever be an infidel... great logic.

You are a professional, and an educated man with an above average level of maturity. Here is a serious FACT for you to ponder:

Do you know that Taliban completely eliminated the production and trade of HEROIN and OPIUM? because they regarded it not permissible in Islam,
This will be a shock to you since we suffer from media fever, but do your research and verify.

The US government even PAID the Taliban for doing this. Then ally with the Northern tribal savage warlords to over throw the Taliban and bring opium production up to the highest point its ever been at.

Now that you mentioned, I recall that it tore my heart when I watched the documentary Dancing Boys of Afghanistan, and was both sad and enraged, and the fact that Taliban stopped it as well deeming it against Islamic teachings.

Pesky, I have to say that I admire and appreciate that being a Canadian how YOU have been able to keep yourself abreast of what transpires in some corners of the world that we don't see and hear! keep it up!

All supported by our proud conservative government and our allies.

Now that I got that out of the way. Pesky, BDB, Thanks. You wrote very eloquent posts that not a single one of these other members could trump in a debate. At least from what I read that is the case though I do share a common ideology with you on this issue.

Secondly in regards to the whole rehabilitation thing many of your pundits keep bringing up. Some apples make good pies, some apples make good juice, others are great for just eating. Not all apples are good for pies, and not all apples are good for juice, and some apples well are best left uneaten. Some criminals can be helped, some people who are criminals need help, some criminals are psychopaths(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy) and cannot be helped. Thing is, many psychos walk among us, some are criminals, some aren't.

What happened and is happening with Omar Khadr is a tragedy that should of and could of been avoided. Had we the moral fortitude to acknowledge our responsibilities to this CITIZEN of Canada who was victimized RIGHT HERE IN CANADA before going overseas and having his fate play out like it did, it might have been..

[Big Daddy Badger]

Well Big Daddy Badger I have read every post in this thread and can say I hope you got the debate you wanted. The whole Khadr episode underscores so many wrong things. We will have to disagree as to what should be done with him now. Clearly you have personal experiences as do others, clearly you have seen things, as have others. Remf is derogatory and you know it was when you typed it, telling a guy he's not a professional soldier is wrong and you know you owe an apology there.

You have likely done things that you are not proud of during service, as have others. Put the energy and passion you have regarding this topic to use. Go teach what you know and what you feel, just don't be surprised when you get push back, not everyone is ready.

Feel free to pm me if you would like further discussion.

PM sent.
As for the apology... you reap what you sow.
No offence but your bias has allowed you to overlook some slights and see others.:)
Its only natural... I'm not saying that you did that by intent.:)

Anyway... you did highlight one item.... the thread raised the debate I craved.
I'm not going to hold a telethon for Khadr or have any bake sales.... so everyione can rest easy.
The point was debate... just to get folks thinking really.

What is done is done.
Hopefully... recognizing that Khadr could have been any one of us in any number of circumstances.... we have the courage to admit that our government is not above ignoring the rights of Canadians when it suits their political agenda. Even if that means ignoring the rule of law.

And thats pretty scarey thing folks.
Certainly far more dangerous for us than one 15 year old with kooky parents and ugly jammies.

Just think abiut that for a second.

Over one frightened 15 year old... we allowed the government to set a precedence that we, our children and our grandchildren will have to live with.
And that precedance can be applied against any one of us when it suits the needs of the government of the day... regardless of their ideology.

I sure hope that everyone is satisfied that their desire for payback was worth the loss of civil liberty suffered by each and every one of us from this point foreward.

I don't.... not for a thoiusand Khadrs or ten thousand after that.


I think that I've exhausted my arguement here.:(

Feel free to carry on but I think that I'll be bowing out unless someone wishes to carry on via PM.
Its getting a bit old now and until something changes with Khadr its all just so much hot air.
Thanks for the banter folks.:)