Lets Talk about Pickerel Rigs

[B_Type13X2]

Since I began River fishing extensively I have had a love hate relationship with these things. I love using them and love the fishing I have gotten out of them but I hate the results that these things can have on heavily fished spots, namely on the bottom. Yesterday while having a good day of fishing I retrieved no less then 7 rigs people had snagged on something and abandoned. I also lost 3 of my 5 of diamonds to these rigs. I would later recover one of the three stuck on one of the rigs.

Now I'm not an expert fisherman not even close but I have learned a few things, the most important has been if anything is going to get snagged in a way that you can't get it unstuck, its going to be your weight. The moment I get snagged I assume my weight is going bye bye, which is why I've taken to making my own rigs.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v170/B_Type13/812262_zps231e984c.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/B_Type13/media/812262_zps231e984c.jpg.html)


This is your standard P.rig, mine are a little different, the largest difference between mine and a standard rig is that I only use 1 spreader an therefore only 1 hook. The distance between the swivel up top and the spreader arm is about 8"s. I also snell my own hooks and give them 6"s of line. The distance between the bottom snapswivel and the spreader arm is 24"s. The average length for a P.rig is about 36"s, my rigs are a little shorter but it doesn't matter. While fishing in fast moving water I have learned that your bottom hook and arm end up on the bottom of the river.Your line in moving water does not remain vertical the faster the moving water the more parallel to the river bed it becomes; so unless your fishing for sucker fish, it seems wasted to me.

My next change happens at the weight, I don't directly attach my weight to the bottom snap swivel, I instead use a 3 or 6lb mono fishing line secured to the weight with a fisherman's knot, form a hoop with about 3"s of line between and put the loop through the snap swivel. The rest of my rig is made out of 40lb test as I use these things in both winter (ice fishing) and summer. Now the weakest point of your rig is now where your weight is tied on, so if you get a snag on your weight you've only lost your weight which has 3"s of mono tied to it.

I started doing this more to preserve my own pocket book as it is cheaper to lose just a weight then it is to lose everything. Yesterdays trip I snagged my own rig, I couldn't get it unsnagged so after 10 minutes of fighting to free it I chose to just break the weight off. Retrieving it, I got my whole rig, minus a weight back and looking at the massive collection of weights I got from retrieving other peoples rigs, I actually got out ahead. But looking at it from another perspective, imagine what the bottom of a popular fishing site looks like with all those rigs down there, imagine how many fish take the bait off those snagged rigs hooking themselves and dieing that way. What do you think does less damage a bunch of weights being left behind or all those rigs with their hooks attached?

[pikergolf]

Nice well thought out post!!
:)

[FishingFrenzy]

IMO my hooks would get caught up on logs, etc before my weight would. Maybe its best to use lighter line on your hooks and just make sure your drag is set appropriately to land whatever your fishing for?

[B_Type13X2]

IMO my hooks would get caught up on logs, etc before my weight would. Maybe its best to use lighter line on your hooks and just make sure your drag is set appropriately to land whatever your fishing for?

Where I fish its all rocks along the bottom and very rarely tree's. When I tossed my fish cam into the river, there was 1 tree and smooth rocks. The types of weights being used also had a pretty large effect on snags, if you use Pyramid weights, (shaped like a pyramid) your going to get snagged alot. If you use the flat weights shaped like stones you'll slide over the rocks. The bell weights get caught more in the gaps between the stones on the bottom. The ball shaped weights same issue as the bell weights. I've also played with snake weights but they are about as good as flat weights.

My suggestion comes with experience in the area's where I fish, if you know the bottom of the river where your fishing isn't rocky, then it is just as likely that your hooks will snag on wood, although with weights they have the added fun of wrapping around branches and being tied in a river knot.

[FishingFrenzy]

Where I fish its all rocks along the bottom and very rarely tree's. When I tossed my fish cam into the river, there was 1 tree and smooth rocks. The types of weights being used also had a pretty large effect on snags, if you use Pyramid weights, (shaped like a pyramid) your going to get snagged alot. If you use the flat weights shaped like stones you'll slide over the rocks. The bell weights get caught more in the gaps between the stones on the bottom. The ball shaped weights same issue as the bell weights. I've also played with snake weights but they are about as good as flat weights.

My suggestion comes with experience in the area's where I fish, if you know the bottom of the river where your fishing isn't rocky, then it is just as likely that your hooks will snag on wood, although with weights they have the added fun of wrapping around branches and being tied in a river knot.


Good points! Yes where I fish we see more wood snags, but I see how rocks would snag your weight more than hooks.

Overall great thread. It will definately make me re-think my next set of bait rigs!

[lochness]

I use a small rubber band from pickerel rig to sinker. I was thinking using slidding sinker rig, but in the event of a smag, you'll still be losing everything. The purpose is to prevent losing hooks on the bottom of the river.

[CanadianBadass]

Since I began River fishing extensively I have had a love hate relationship with these things. I love using them and love the fishing I have gotten out of them but I hate the results that these things can have on heavily fished spots, namely on the bottom. Yesterday while having a good day of fishing I retrieved no less then 7 rigs people had snagged on something and abandoned. I also lost 3 of my 5 of diamonds to these rigs. I would later recover one of the three stuck on one of the rigs.

Now I'm not an expert fisherman not even close but I have learned a few things, the most important has been if anything is going to get snagged in a way that you can't get it unstuck, its going to be your weight. The moment I get snagged I assume my weight is going bye bye, which is why I've taken to making my own rigs.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v170/B_Type13/812262_zps231e984c.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/B_Type13/media/812262_zps231e984c.jpg.html)


This is your standard P.rig, mine are a little different, the largest difference between mine and a standard rig is that I only use 1 spreader an therefore only 1 hook. The distance between the swivel up top and the spreader arm is about 8"s. I also snell my own hooks and give them 6"s of line. The distance between the bottom snapswivel and the spreader arm is 24"s. The average length for a P.rig is about 36"s, my rigs are a little shorter but it doesn't matter. While fishing in fast moving water I have learned that your bottom hook and arm end up on the bottom of the river.Your line in moving water does not remain vertical the faster the moving water the more parallel to the river bed it becomes; so unless your fishing for sucker fish, it seems wasted to me.

My next change happens at the weight, I don't directly attach my weight to the bottom snap swivel, I instead use a 3 or 6lb mono fishing line secured to the weight with a fisherman's knot, form a hoop with about 3"s of line between and put the loop through the snap swivel. The rest of my rig is made out of 40lb test as I use these things in both winter (ice fishing) and summer. Now the weakest point of your rig is now where your weight is tied on, so if you get a snag on your weight you've only lost your weight which has 3"s of mono tied to it.

I started doing this more to preserve my own pocket book as it is cheaper to lose just a weight then it is to lose everything. Yesterdays trip I snagged my own rig, I couldn't get it unsnagged so after 10 minutes of fighting to free it I chose to just break the weight off. Retrieving it, I got my whole rig, minus a weight back and looking at the massive collection of weights I got from retrieving other peoples rigs, I actually got out ahead. But looking at it from another perspective, imagine what the bottom of a popular fishing site looks like with all those rigs down there, imagine how many fish take the bait off those snagged rigs hooking themselves and dieing that way. What do you think does less damage a bunch of weights being left behind or all those rigs with their hooks attached?



When I see guys using store bought rigs I Cringe, I have even seen guys doing it while Sturgeon Fishing, Drives me nutz,

I have also made all my own rigs for quite some time,

I use 55 lb Mono
Metel Spreaders ( from all the rigs I retrieve )
Eagle claw Snell Hooks, ( one of the better quality's, Never had a Hook break yet )

And much better quality Swivels and Snaps, Then instead of ever tieing knots , I use crimps with a crimper, ( and I only use this type of rig because it catches way way way more fish then the sliding weight method, My sturgeon count doubled while using this method compared to bottom sliding weight ) even though I prefer the sliding weight for a few reasons, it doesn't justify that P-RIGS catch a lot more fish lol lol

I seen a guy make the exact some rig as me this weekend, except he tied all his knots, instead of using crimps, they broke !

Great thread man,

[RavYak]

Just use heavy braid main line, depending on what you are fishing for 40-100 lbs. Then on hooks use heavy fluorocarbon weaker then the main line, say 20-60 lbs. For weight use lighter mono, something like 20-40 lbs. Just make sure the rest of the harness is stronger then the hook and weight lines and good to go.

That way if either your weight or hook gets stuck it can break off. Fluoro is harder to bite through so works better with the hook. Mono has some stretch which can help free the weight if it is stuck. Braid allows you to use a reasonable size line and have tons of strength to pull the rig free if it gets stuck without breaking and losing everything.

[Geezle]

I seen a guy make the exact some rig as me this weekend, except he tied all his knots, instead of using crimps, they broke !



Interesting...in my own travels I've found the opposite to be the case. I tie all my leaders, bait rigs, etc and used to use crimp sleeves because my knot tying skills left something to be desired. The only failures I've ever had on these rigs...particularly heavy fluoro leaders and quick strike rigs have been dodgy crimps. Since then I've worked on my knot abilities and tie everything now, and haven't had a failure since. :)

YMMV.

That being said, anything over 50lb fluoro leader material is a bugger to tie! :thinking-006:

[AppleJax]

I make my own pickeral rig type setup, I learned from Geezle. Polymer knot to a snap swivel(weaker snap swivel than the mainline), I then direct tie the leader to the line. The leaders are tied with lighter line then the mainline so if the hook gets caught, I lose the leader not the entire rig, or the weight and not the leader. This setup is stronger than any p-rig, the weak spot in the p-rig seams to be the hardware (specifically the metal hangers) all leaders are tied with an egg knot to the hook, and an overhand loop.

[Albertafisher]

I like hopper-dropper rigs better.

[B_Type13X2]

Just use heavy braid main line, depending on what you are fishing for 40-100 lbs. Then on hooks use heavy fluorocarbon weaker then the main line, say 20-60 lbs. For weight use lighter mono, something like 20-40 lbs. Just make sure the rest of the harness is stronger then the hook and weight lines and good to go.

That way if either your weight or hook gets stuck it can break off. Fluoro is harder to bite through so works better with the hook. Mono has some stretch which can help free the weight if it is stuck. Braid allows you to use a reasonable size line and have tons of strength to pull the rig free if it gets stuck without breaking and losing everything.

I like my hook lines to be strong, I used to use 10lb test on my hooks right up until I had a fish break my line at the hook, was a good size and a heart breaker. So I go by the rule now of having my rig be the strongest part of my setup. I've played with Braid as the primary line on the rig itself, braid on my hooks, etc... But through trial and error, I've discovered mono is better because although braid is undoubtedly stronger (40lb braid can take more pull then 40lb mono before failing.) Mono doesn't snap as readily when shock loaded with a fighting fish.

My setup goes 15lb camo braid-> 40lb Nylon Leader -> 40lb Mono -> 6lb Mono.

Further lets say you get one of those magical mystery snags tied by the river, where the whole line is wrapped around a log or a rock. (seen on fish cam.) Its the rig itself that is now stuck not your hooks or the weight, your options are to either now wade out into the water and clear the snag, haul the log or rock to shore, or break the line. It's not ideal, but I'm a realist, sometimes your just stuck and a rig needs to be abandoned, if your in that situation, its alot harder to break a line that is made out of solid 40lb mono or braid.

Going into my reasoning further, tie an end of 15lb braid around a tree, and loop around a scale, walk backwards with the scale end and watch how far it goes up before the braid lets go. Its alot harder to break 15lb braid then that 15lb rating would lead you to believe. Braid fails when shock loaded which a fighting fish running and jerking its head will do, so the rating has more to do with the force of shock loading. Mono acts as a shock absorber but will stretch and fail under sustained load. It is for these different characteristics that they perfectly compliment each other. My Mono P.rig acts as a shock absorber for my braid line which handles the steady load of a fish while retrieving.


Interesting...in my own travels I've found the opposite to be the case. I tie all my leaders, bait rigs, etc and used to use crimp sleeves because my knot tying skills left something to be desired. The only failures I've ever had on these rigs...particularly heavy fluoro leaders and quick strike rigs have been dodgy crimps. Since then I've worked on my knot abilities and tie everything now, and haven't had a failure since. :)

YMMV.

That being said, anything over 50lb fluoro leader material is a bugger to tie! :thinking-006:

my knot of choice is a fishermans knot (cinch knot) with 3 over under knots to make a tag end that can't be drug through. The same effect can be had by touching the tag end with a lit match but along the river bank I've found it faster and easier to just use the over under method. When tying knots with larger lb test lines you need fewer wraps with a fishermans knot, 40lb test I only wrap 4-5times, the smaller the test the more wraps around.

[CanadianBadass]

Interesting...in my own travels I've found the opposite to be the case. I tie all my leaders, bait rigs, etc and used to use crimp sleeves because my knot tying skills left something to be desired. The only failures I've ever had on these rigs...particularly heavy fluoro leaders and quick strike rigs have been dodgy crimps. Since then I've worked on my knot abilities and tie everything now, and haven't had a failure since. :)

YMMV.

That being said, anything over 50lb fluoro leader material is a bugger to tie! :thinking-006:

I only use crimps on thicker heavy line, a comment clinch knot is so hard to get tight with heavy line , all my other is tied, I tie my line to the swivels, or whatever , I use what's called a Rapala knot when using most lures. But I find with heavy 55 lb line is to thick to make great knots , but that being said , I also only know of a few good knots that I have found to be dependable enough .

And what does YMMV mean ? Never seen that before lol

[CanadianBadass]

I make my own pickeral rig type setup, I learned from Geezle. Polymer knot to a snap swivel(weaker snap swivel than the mainline), I then direct tie the leader to the line. The leaders are tied with lighter line then the mainline so if the hook gets caught, I lose the leader not the entire rig, or the weight and not the leader. This setup is stronger than any p-rig, the weak spot in the p-rig seams to be the hardware (specifically the metal hangers) all leaders are tied with an egg knot to the hook, and an overhand loop.

I also like the setups you use, but I don't know near as many knots as u and Im also not as good at them lol,

But again, nothing beats a clinch knot lol

[RavYak]

I like my hook lines to be strong, I used to use 10lb test on my hooks right up until I had a fish break my line at the hook, was a good size and a heart breaker. So I go by the rule now of having my rig be the strongest part of my setup. I've played with Braid as the primary line on the rig itself, braid on my hooks, etc... But through trial and error, I've discovered mono is better because although braid is undoubtedly stronger (40lb braid can take more pull then 40lb mono before failing.) Mono doesn't snap as readily when shock loaded with a fighting fish.

I was talking main line as in what you are casting. The core of the pickeral rig should be mono as it is cheaper and provides some stretch.

If you are breaking braid due to shock loading you have your drag set too high for the strength of braid you are using. If you are breaking 40 lb then the only fish you could be catching here is sturgeon and that is why lots of people use 80-100 lb braid for them.

I will never understand the people that use low strength braid, you can easily double your strength without having any detriment to casting or catching fish so why subject yourself to more breakoffs...

[B_Type13X2]

I was talking main line as in what you are casting. The core of the pickeral rig should be mono as it is cheaper and provides some stretch.

If you are breaking braid due to shock loading you have your drag set too high for the strength of braid you are using. If you are breaking 40 lb then the only fish you could be catching here is sturgeon and that is why lots of people use 80-100 lb braid for them.

I will never understand the people that use low strength braid, you can easily double your strength without having any detriment to casting or catching fish so why subject yourself to more breakoffs...

I thought you were referring to what you have on your spool as that's often referred to as your main line. There's no sturgeon up where I fish, everything but it seems. And as sad as it is a fish over 10lbs would be considered massive around here, so 15lb braid on my reel is more then adequate. As for the why? I can spool more 15lb braid on them 40lb braid, and its often a little cheaper, and less visible in the water.

I seldom if every break off my main line, it only happens when I do it on purpose, like when my 5 of diamonds got snagged on what I'm assuming was the one and only tree/ log in the water column. Main line breaks just aren't an issue and never have been for me even when fishing for the big girls in Slave Lake.

[Chief16]

I like hopper-dropper rigs better.

Sturgeon go crazy over dropper hoppers I hear

[RavYak]

I thought you were referring to what you have on your spool as that's often referred to as your main line. There's no sturgeon up where I fish, everything but it seems. And as sad as it is a fish over 10lbs would be considered massive around here, so 15lb braid on my reel is more then adequate. As for the why? I can spool more 15lb braid on them 40lb braid, and its often a little cheaper, and less visible in the water.

I seldom if every break off my main line, it only happens when I do it on purpose, like when my 5 of diamonds got snagged on what I'm assuming was the one and only tree/ log in the water column. Main line breaks just aren't an issue and never have been for me even when fishing for the big girls in Slave Lake.

You can fit tons of heavier braid line on a normal size reel, lighter braid/line is far more expensive when you consider lost lures, and there is very little difference in visibility. If a fish is going to see 40 lb braid they will see 15 just as easy, colour of line depending on water being fished is far more important.

In your OP you said you use 3-6 lb mono going to your weight. Imo you must like losing weights... If you increased your main line strength to 40 lb you could use 12-20 lb mono to your weight. That way you can pull it free instead of just always breaking it off every time it gets slightly stuck. I have pulled small trees/branches up, overturned rocks, straightened hooks etc with heavier line and it saves a lot of money. My lures actually get worn out now instead of me just losing them...

A pickeral rig, just like a fly rod setup and every other type of fishing setup makes most sense to get weaker the farther down the system you go. Hooks and weights should be attached with the weakest lines, if there are pike present you want either a larger fluoro or steel/titanium leader to the hook though and that means your main line and pickeral rig harness need to be much stronger.

With your setup you would break your main line most times your hook gets stuck on something(unless you use really cheap hooks).

[Geezle]

I only use crimps on thicker heavy line, a comment clinch knot is so hard to get tight with heavy line , all my other is tied, I tie my line to the swivels, or whatever , I use what's called a Rapala knot when using most lures. But I find with heavy 55 lb line is to thick to make great knots , but that being said , I also only know of a few good knots that I have found to be dependable enough .

And what does YMMV mean ? Never seen that before lol

I use the Palomar knot for most things.

YMMV = your mileage may vary :)

[B_Type13X2]

You can fit tons of heavier braid line on a normal size reel, lighter braid/line is far more expensive when you consider lost lures, and there is very little difference in visibility. If a fish is going to see 40 lb braid they will see 15 just as easy, colour of line depending on water being fished is far more important.

In your OP you said you use 3-6 lb mono going to your weight. Imo you must like losing weights... If you increased your main line strength to 40 lb you could use 12-20 lb mono to your weight. That way you can pull it free instead of just always breaking it off every time it gets slightly stuck. I have pulled small trees/branches up, overturned rocks, straightened hooks etc with heavier line and it saves a lot of money. My lures actually get worn out now instead of me just losing them...

A pickeral rig, just like a fly rod setup and every other type of fishing setup makes most sense to get weaker the farther down the system you go. Hooks and weights should be attached with the weakest lines, if there are pike present you want either a larger fluoro or steel/titanium leader to the hook though and that means your main line and pickeral rig harness need to be much stronger.

With your setup you would break your main line most times your hook gets stuck on something(unless you use really cheap hooks).

I'm going to go through this step by step to explain the logic behind it. My fishing rod is quite cheap it costs about 30$'s my Reel on the other hand is over 270$'s. My setup is designed to allow me to haul in big fish, (17lb Pike through the ice last year.) while protecting my investment.

Your suggestion of using 40lb braid with an 18lb mono on the weight is pretty much what I'm already doing by making the weight the weakest part. From experience where I fish however, I've learned that when your weight is stuck it is stuck. I don't just abandon my weights thought, I will actually try to get it loose by opening the bail giving it slack moving up the back, retrieving, if its still stuck repeat the process until its obvious that I'm not getting it back. At that point drag max-> line myself up with where I'm snagged walk backwards, boop weight gone retrieve.

We have rock piles on the bottom here scattered pretty much everywhere, when your stuck your weight is stuck behind a rock anchored in by all the other rocks, picture interlocking bricks. I'd rather just break a light line on the weight then fight with a weight attached with 18lb mono and spring my rod and reel trying to wrestle it free. Such actions are hard on your rod and reel.

Finally my 15lb braid, doesn't break that easily, it takes alot of pulling power or a really good shock load to do so, more of a shock load then any fish swimming in this river can actually do. I am not fishing for sturgeon, I am mainly getting 4-5lb walleye. And as I've said repeatedly my 40lb mono on the rig itself attached by a 40lb nylon leader both act as shock absorbers for the lighter braid. Further with proper drag settings you can pull in a fish that is heavier then what your line is rated for within reason.

The point behind my weaker braid is to spare my reel from unnecessary strain when I am caught on something that I know I'm not getting out of. If the rig itself is snagged, I'd sooner have the braid break as soon as I've deemed that I am not getting it unstuck. Again I used to use 40lb braid on my main line and 40lb mono all through the rig, it didn't lose me any less weights, all it accomplished is making me work harder to break the line when it was stuck. Although my reel is made to spool 40lb mono or braid I just don't have any use for it, sometimes bigger line is not better.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

[RavYak]

My main point is that if your hook gets stuck you have to break off your entire rig instead of just the hook. Why litter a whole pickeral rig for other people to snag when you can leave just a think piece of line behind?

I do disagree with you on weight line strength as well but you obviously live in a place with strange rocks compared to anything I have ever fished in. 10-15 lb mono is quite easy to break, that is why I don't see the point in going all the way down to 3-6 lbs unless you are planning on getting stuck and losing weights quite often.

[BeeGuy]

bottom bouncing drop shot rigs is an extremely productive technique.

drop shot style weights are designed to pull off when they are snagged...

...and they spin!

[WayneChristie]

Just dont see why anyone would want all that metal between them and a fish. Never used them never will.

[TROLLER]

Just dont see why anyone would want all that metal between them and a fish. Never used them never will.

X2

[AppleJax]

X2

Xr, but I have to admit I did use them....until I knew better

[EZM]

Do not use them often - but I do tie my own using the spreader and beads off of one of them cheap and crappy store bought pik rigs.

I use a Palomar knot for all thicker lines (including a 80lb fluorocarbon leader) with zero failures so far. Big stuff gets a drop of crazy glue (like my pike leaders).

For smaller diameter lines (that are not braid) I use a improved clinch knot or snell knot.

All braid gets a Palomar regardless of size as this knot does not slip on braid.

Again, I prefer knots, properly tied, over crimps any day. Tying your own rigs will give you piece of mind and allows you to set up according to the water (and current) conditions for an optimal presentation.

You can add corkies, spin'n'glows, beads etc... to get your bait moving and/or suspending off the bottom if you desire. Try running a spin n glow in a river current - you might be surprised how well this works when nothing is happening.

If I am running the weight at the lowest point in my rig - I use half the break strength for the aforementioned reasons.

[Geezle]

Just dont see why anyone would want all that metal between them and a fish. Never used them never will.

While we're discussing p-rigs, can somebody explain to me the benefit of the metal standoff arms in moving water? :confused:

[italk2u]

Just dont see why anyone would want all that metal between them and a fish. Never used them never will.

X3-just don't see the skill involved in throwing heavy metal out into a river and letting it sit there waiting for a fish to see it.

[AppleJax]

X3-just don't see the skill involved in throwing heavy metal out into a river and letting it sit there waiting for a fish to see it.

If you attach bait your catch rates will increase:bad_boys_20:

[AK47]

Hate pickerel rigs with passion - they suck! Always wonder why people even bother using them, such a terrible idea in my honest opinion. Two hooks always lead to more chances of snagging and losing not only rig but sometimes a trophy fish, so if you stubborn to use it at least make it one hook rig! Metal wiring makes all set up stiff, cumbersome and scares more suspicious fish away ( especially now in clear fall water) and it is not sensitive enough to notice gentle nibbles. I have seen standard pickerel rigs outfished badly so many times that I would not suggest to use it for my worst enemy.
Here, I am done venting lol...I personally use modified Apollo rig system with one hook only. Works terrific all the time.

[AK47]

Just dont see why anyone would want all that metal between them and a fish. Never used them never will.

Agree 100% . Some states/countries are banning led sinkers or jigs, IMHO banning those metal pickerel rigs would make way more sense.

[coorslightspoon]

That's a great idea . Thanks for the tip :)