Great White Holdings

[JRsMav]

Anyone have any news on the operation? Is this guy still actually operating in Alberta? I was under the impression he was banned from outfitting in Alberta but it looks like (based on their website) they are still going strong. If so, how has not only APOS dealt with this train wreck, but fish and feathers as well. He used to run in the same area I do my hunting in and although ive never personally had a run in with him or his son ive heard nothing but horror stories.

Anyone know of anything?

Furthermore, how to we get guys like this shutdown for good?

**And yes I edited my OP. Legitimately wondering if they are still going strong*

[Cowtown guy]

:party0052:

[DAVE]

Anyone have any news on Lloyd McMahon and his operation? Is this guy still actually operating in Alberta? I was under the impression the POS was banned from outfitting in Alberta but it looks like (based on their website) they are still going strong. If so, how has not only APOS dealt with this train wreck of a human, but fish and feathers as well. He used to run in the same area I do my hunting in and although ive never personally had a run in with him or his son ive heard nothing but horror stories.

Any know of anything?

Furthermore, how to we get guys like this shutdown for good?

Last I herd him and the boy still at it.

[hillbillyreefer]

He's well known in our area, all the landowners keep an eye out for him and deny permission. Not a real classy guy, kind of your typical poacher a pos, member.

[elkhunter11]

Although he has been convicted of Wildlife Act violations, and of Criminal Acts, on multiple occasions, he is allowed to continue outfitting. Our government leaves it up to APOS to discipline it's members, and of course APOS refuses to take actions against it's members. As far as trying to get him shut down, good luck, several people, including myself have contacted SRD and the minister concerning these rogue APOS members, and they refuse to take any actions at all.

[Grizzly Adams]

Think he's banned in Saskatchewan, as I recall. Tough to think of Outfitting as a reputable occupation with guys like this skulking around.

Grizz

[sns2]

Piece of dirt that guy is. Pure scumbag.

[walking buffalo]

Anyone have any news on the operation? Is this guy still actually operating in Alberta? I was under the impression he was banned from outfitting in Alberta but it looks like (based on their website) they are still going strong. If so, how has not only APOS dealt with this train wreck, but fish and feathers as well. He used to run in the same area I do my hunting in and although ive never personally had a run in with him or his son ive heard nothing but horror stories.

Anyone know of anything?

Furthermore, how to we get guys like this shutdown for good?

**And yes I edited my OP. Legitimately wondering if they are still going strong*


You might want to ask these people.




APOS - DIRECTOR – MINISTER’S APPT
Matthew Machielse
Assistant Deputy Minister, Environment & Sustainable Resource Development
10th Floor, 9915 - 108 St
Edmonton, Alberta T5K 2G8
Ph: (780) 427-1335
Email: matthew.machielse@gov.ab.ca


APOS - Ethics and Standards Tribunal
Sven-Erik Jansson
Home # 780-924-8440
Email: svenerik@shaw.ca


ESRD -
Kay, Dave
Commercial Wildlife and Priority Species Specialist
Game and Priority Species
Environment and Sustainable Resource Development
2nd fl Great West Life Building
9920 - 108 Street
Edmonton, AB
T5K 2M4

Phone: 780 644-4646
Fax: 780 422-9557
E-mail: dave.kay@gov.ab.ca

[hal53]

You might want to ask these people.




APOS - DIRECTOR – MINISTER’S APPT
Matthew Machielse
Assistant Deputy Minister, Environment & Sustainable Resource Development
10th Floor, 9915 - 108 St
Edmonton, Alberta T5K 2G8
Ph: (780) 427-1335
Email: matthew.machielse@gov.ab.ca


APOS - Ethics and Standards Tribunal
Sven-Erik Jansson
Home # 780-924-8440
Email: svenerik@shaw.ca


ESRD -
Kay, Dave
Commercial Wildlife and Priority Species Specialist
Game and Priority Species
Environment and Sustainable Resource Development
2nd fl Great West Life Building
9920 - 108 Street
Edmonton, AB
T5K 2M4

Phone: 780 644-4646
Fax: 780 422-9557
E-mail: dave.kay@gov.ab.ca
save these contacts boys and girls, they are very important for the future of hunting in Alberta,....and use them!!!!!!!

[walking buffalo]

save these contacts boys and girls, they are very important for the future of hunting in Alberta,....and use them!!!!!!!


The Resident hunting community needs to start using these contacts now.


Discussions to re-write the Alberta Big Game Outfitter/Guide Policy are about to begin. ESRD, APOS and AFGA are preparing their positions. This will be the only chance for many years to influence significant and meaningful changes to how Outfitters and Guides operate in this province.


The AFGA should also be contacted with your thoughts and concerns. AFGA members need to bring this topic up at their regional and club meetings.


I'll do my best to keep people informed. Please do your part. :)

[two_ker]

Where does one find out about said infractions or history?? Tried google but no luck

[walking buffalo]

Where does one find out about said infractions or history?? Tried google but no luck


A few cases here.

http://www.canlii.org/en/search/search.do?jId=ab&all=%22Great%20White%20Holdings%22%20

[elkhunter11]

Some past history quoted from the Game Warden magazine.

Outfitter caught baiting: Vegreville District

A Lloydminster man’s illegal activity came to a halt after Fish and Wildlife officers located a client hunting over a pile of bait. On Mar. 1, 2005 Lloyd A. McMahon, 54, of Lloydminster, Saskatchewan was convicted on the charge of setting out prohibited items (bait) as specified to hunt big game. As a result, McMahon was handed a $12,500 fine and a seized hunting stand was ordered forfeited to the Crown. This judgement arose as a result of trial on Jan. 18, 2005. On Nov. 24, 2003 Vegreville and Vermillion Fish and Wildlife officers were working in an area southeast of Two Hills. A foot patrol into property in the area found a non-resident alien hunter that was hunting white-tailed deer from a stand. The stand was overlooking a pile of bait found about 150 metres away. The bait consisted of oats and peas recently placed there that would naturally attract deer. The property the non-alien resident was hunting on was native bush and parkland with no areas broken up for cropland or pasture. The stand and bait was located in a dried up slough bottom. A trail had been cleared through the bush from the main access road to get to the slough and stand. The trail that provided access to this location was beyond a locked gate and was also posted to keep people out. The client provided his co-operation by advising, in a statement, his activity and knowledge of the bait and licensing arrangements to hunt deer in Alberta. Further investigation revealed that the property was owned by McMahon and that his company had contracted the hunt with the non-resident alien. A search warrant was executed on the property the following day. The stand was dismantled, seized and ordered forfeited.




The matter of outfitter Lloyd McMahon and his company, Great White Holdings, has been concluded. The last update that appeared in this magazine involved McMahon’s appeal of the convictions. In summary, the Court of Appeal found the company, Great White Holdings, guilty on three counts of hunting wildlife without a licence, one count of illegal possession of wildlife and two counts of indictable fraud under the Criminal Code. The court also upheld the convictions of Lloyd McMahon, finding him guilty on two counts of hunting wildlife without a licence, one count of illegal possession of wildlife and two counts of indictable fraud under the Criminal Code. The court sent back five Wildlife Act counts for retrial. The Special Prosecutions Branch elected not to retry the company on these counts and those convictions have been quashed or set aside.

The next appeal launched by McMahon involved the penalties that were imposed. The Court of Appeal ruled on those on May 31, 2005. The specifics of the appeal may be viewed at:www.albertacourts.ab.ca/jdb/2003-/ca/criminal/ 2005/2005abca0188.pdf

The final results of the monetary penalties are as follows: Great White Holdings was assessed fines of $4,600 per count (three counts) involving hunting wildlife without a licence, $1,150 for one count of illegal possession of wildlife and $2,500 per count (two counts) for the fraud convictions. A total of $19,950 in penalties were assessed against the company.

McMahon was handed fines of $4,600 per count (two counts) involving hunting wildlife without a licence, $1,150 for one count of illegal possession of wildlife and $2,500 per count (two counts) for the fraud convictions. Total fines of $15,350 were assessed against McMahon.

A previous newspaper article.

Outfitter given hefty fine for fraud: Two deer hunters given void licences, trial hears
PUBLICATION: Edmonton Journal
DATE: 2003.05.24
BYLINE: Derrick Penner
SOURCE: The Edmonton Journal
DATELINE: SHERWOOD PARK


SHERWOOD PARK - An Alberta company that charged big bucks to take Americans deer hunting will have to pay hefty fines for defrauding two clients and sending others into the woods with void licences.

On Friday, provincial court judge Ray Bradley ordered Great White Holdings Ltd. and owner Lloyd McMahon to pay $137,000 in fines on criminal charges of fraud and several provincial Wildlife Act offences.

Conservation officer Greg Stolz said it is one of the biggest penalties ever assessed against an outfitter in the province.

"I'm quite pleased with the order," Stolz said. "The monetary penalty certainly addresses the seriousness of the offences. And hopefully a message has been sent to the industry that abuses of the system will be dealt with seriously."

Stolz said the case sets precedents to help conservation officers deal with accountability among guides and outfitters for the accuracy of information they provide to provincial wildlife officials.

Crown prosecutor Orest Yereniuk said the decision was "well thought out and addresses all the concerns," though he had asked for up to two years in jail for McMahon on the fraud charges.

A $50,000 payment to provincial wildlife conservation for an aerial survey of whitetail deer populations was one part of the sentence Bradley handed down under creative sentencing provisions of the Wildlife Act.

Bradley did not prohibit McMahon from hunting, though he would forfeit the right if he fails to pay the fines.

He had convicted Great White and McMahon of the charges on Jan. 31.

During the three-week trial, hunters told the court they paid $3,500 US each to be taken deer hunting in either the fall of 1999 or 2000. Non-citizens must use the services of a local guide to hunt legally in Alberta. Witnesses said they assumed the company had taken care of licences and permits. What they did not know is that licences Great White handed to them were cancelled moments after they were printed, putting them in the position of hunting illegally.

And some more convictions in Texas.


Man’s arrest ends bizarre illegal hunting scandal
by Bill Quimby on Feb. 10, 1995, under Outdoors

NOTE:

A mechanical problem that forced an airliner returning from New Zealand to make an unscheduled stop in Hawaii last May resulted in the arrest of a man who had been a fugitive for eight years.

It also allowed the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to add a postscript to a bizarre illegal hunting case.

A federal wildlife law enforcement agent said the case began in late 1983, when Canadian hunting outfitter Lloyd Alexander McMahon agreed to guide William Mark Day, an American, to a trophy white-tailed deer in Canada for $20,000.

The legal hunt was canceled before it could take place, the agent said last week at a hunters’ convention in Las Vegas.

A few weeks later, on Dec. 4, 1983, six sets of deer antlers – including one from a record-class whitetail – were stolen in a burglary at a taxidermy shop in Edmonton, Alberta.

The agent said McMahon already was being investigated by U.S. and Canadian wildlife authorities who suspected him of illegally hunting from airplanes, out of season and in closed areas. The agent said McMahon became a suspect in the Edmonton burglary when it was learned he had seen the antlers in the shop before the break-in.

Day later told investigators that a few weeks after the burglary, McMahon told him he had killed a deer whose antlers would qualify for the Boone and Crockett Club’s record book, and that he had offered to sell them for $20,000. Day said McMahon offered to take the antlers to Mexico and arrange a “hunt’ on a ranch owned by his friend, George Vogt.

On Jan. 23, 1984, McMahon and Vogt’s foreman killed two white-tailed deer in Mexico. The next day, McMahon and Day mounted the stolen Canadian antlers on the head of one of the deer and took pictures of themselves posing with Vogt and what seemed like a recently killed, record-class buck.

Day told investigators the photographs were needed to “prove’ the Canadian antlers had been grown by the deer killed on Vogt’s ranch, allowing Day’s name to be entered into the record book.

The antlers then were transported across the border into Texas, where a taxidermist mounted them on the Mexican deer’s head. They later were used in ads and entered into contests.

The publicity the record-book deer generated soon reached Alberta, where the Edmonton taxidermist recognized the antlers in the photographs that Day and McMahon had taken in Mexico as one of the six sets stolen from his shop in Canada.

On Aug. 7, 1985, McMahon was arrested in Texas, and charged with interstate transportation of stolen property. The trial date was set for 10 months later and he was released on a $50,000 bond.

In April 1986, Vogt and Day confessed to one count each of violating the Lacey Act – the federal law that makes it a felony to cross state or international borders to violate wildlife laws. They each were fined $20,000, sentenced to 500 hours hours of community service and placed on probation for five years.

Vogt and Day also forfeited their vehicles and agreed to testify against McMahon.

Hearing this, McMahon went into hiding. When he failed to appear for his trial in June 1986, a warrant was issued for his arrest. He remained a fugitive until he was spotted and arrested at the airport in Hawaii last year, the agent said.

Last October, McMahon pleaded guilty in Texas to violating the Lacey Act. He was sentenced to two years in federal prison and fined $5,000.

This entry was posted on Friday, February 10th, 1995 at 8:18 am and is filed under Outdoors. Tags for this post: Bill Quimby, Citizen Outdoors Editor, page-8. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.


And yet APOS allows this person to remain a member, and to continue outfitting. This should tell you a great deal about APOS itself.

[two_ker]

Thanks guys

[hal53]

keep contacting everyone on WB's list over this, APOS plays dumb..."don't know what you're talking about" etc., public pressure is the only thing that will work....

[harv3589]

Tells u exactly what APOS is all about...I would like to know what APOS does for the management and conservation of our resources? All I can find on their site is some golf tournament...or the outfits that are a part of it for that matter?

[two_ker]

Just sent a letter to sven, will see what his reply is.

[pikeslayer22]

I see he sold some of his land to buck for wildlife up in wmu 254

[pointer]

He's still running a waterfowl outfit north of lloyd he was boo hooing this fall to the farmer because I was hunting in one of "his" fields I guess his pay off to the farmer wasn't enough to keep the local guy out :sHa_shakeshout:

[ww2269]

And If I recall not long after all this went down he actually had an add for his outfit on the last glossy page of the wildlife regs for a few years.

[gman1978]

This guy is probably held in high regards around the Alberta outfitting circles. Probably some sort of legend or role model. Sounds like he would do anything for a dollar and those were the only infractions he got caught at, just imagine what else he has done.

[Thinlizzy]

This guy is probably held in high regards around the Alberta outfitting circles. Probably some sort of legend or role model. Sounds like he would do anything for a dollar and those were the only infractions he got caught at, just imagine what else he has done.

Good point. If he has already been caught that many times chances are that was just the tip of the iceberg. What has he done that he hasn't gotten caught for?:thinking-006:

[elkhunter11]

Good point. If he has already been caught that many times chances are that was just the tip of the iceberg. What has he done that he hasn't gotten caught for?:thinking-006:


A very logical assumption. Obviously APOS could care less how their members behave, and what type of image members like this create for their organization.

[Snap Shot]

A very logical assumption. Obviously APOS could care less how their members behave, and what type of image members like this create for their organization.

X2 Mind blowing that this guy is still allowed to be a outfitter.

[walking buffalo]

Just sent a letter to sven, will see what his reply is.


Please send your letter to all three contacts listed.

This will ensure that the government is being notified of your concern and their answers will be important to understand SRD's position on the matter.

Change will not happen by just asking APOS.

[elkhunter11]

Please send your letter to all three contacts listed.

This will ensure that the government is being notified of your concern and their answers will be important to understand SRD's position on the matter.

Change will not happen by just asking APOS.


I wrote the minister, and I wish that I knew how to copy and paste her reply from the PDF file that I was sent, but basically, it stated that SRD left it to APOS to discipline it's members as they see fit.

[ishootbambi]

if APOS refuses to do anything...maybe AO can. when that scum sucker from EZ cars and trucks was the hot topic around here....it led to this forum as being the number 1 location on a google search. i bet if the membership here took as keen of an interest in this thread with all the links to criminal past as what was taken to EZ....well....i suspect this could be the number 1 destination on a google search too. whaddya think that would do to business? would you book a hunt with an outfitter that had a thread like this as the first thing to come up on google?

AO has influenced some decisions in the past. potatogate.....cancellation of wainwright hunt......and several others...

just saying........

[top predator]

I almost choked reading his infractions. Unreal poor.

[Thinlizzy]

if APOS refuses to do anything...maybe AO can. when that scum sucker from EZ cars and trucks was the hot topic around here....it led to this forum as being the number 1 location on a google search. i bet if the membership here took as keen of an interest in this thread with all the links to criminal past as what was taken to EZ....well....i suspect this could be the number 1 destination on a google search too. whaddya think that would do to business? would you book a hunt with an outfitter that had a thread like this as the first thing to come up on google?

AO has influenced some decisions in the past. potatogate.....cancellation of wainwright hunt......and several others...

just saying........


Makes sense.

[elkhunter11]

Although I couldn't figure out how to copy and paste the most recent PDF from the Minister, I did find an older reply from SRD. This one was in response to both my concerns as to outfitter allocations, and to why convicted APOS members are allowed to continue outfitting.

Thank you for contacting the Alberta Environment and Sustainable Resource Development Information Centre.

Outfitter allocations are set for a 5-year period (2008 – 2013) and we are currently working with the Alberta Professional Outfitter Society (APOS) in reviewing all big game allocations including pronghorn. For 2012, in light of low population numbers and low resident permits, APOS has voluntarily agreed to reduce their pronghorn allocations by 30% for the 2012 hunting season. Discipline of APOS members is the responsibility of the APOS Disciplinary Committee and is governed by their bylaws.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact this office.

Thank you,

Karen L. Turpin
Information Officer
Information Centre
Strategy Division
Environment and Sustainable Resource Development
9920 - 108 St
Edmonton AB T5K 2M4
Ph: (780) 944 - 0313 or
Ph: (780) 422 - 2097 or (780) 422 - 2079
Toll Free: (877) 944 - 0313
Fax: (780) 427 - 4407




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[pikeslayer22]

Good idea ISB...but most of his clients are return clients that are a lot like him!

[Kaz Dog]

It appears they are not taking responsibility for the management of our natural resources in this case.
Although I couldn't figure out how to copy and paste the most recent PDF from the Minister, I did find an older reply from SRD. This one was in response to both my concerns as to outfitter allocations, and to why convicted APOS members are allowed to continue outfitting.

Quote:
Thank you for contacting the Alberta Environment and Sustainable Resource Development Information Centre.

Outfitter allocations are set for a 5-year period (2008 – 2013) and we are currently working with the Alberta Professional Outfitter Society (APOS) in reviewing all big game allocations including pronghorn. For 2012, in light of low population numbers and low resident permits, APOS has voluntarily agreed to reduce their pronghorn allocations by 30% for the 2012 hunting season. Discipline of APOS members is the responsibility of the APOS Disciplinary Committee and is governed by their bylaws.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact this office.

Thank you,

Karen L. Turpin
Information Officer
Information Centre
Strategy Division
Environment and Sustainable Resource Development
9920 - 108 St
Edmonton AB T5K 2M4
Ph: (780) 944 - 0313 or
Ph: (780) 422 - 2097 or (780) 422 - 2079
Toll Free: (877) 944 - 0313
Fax: (780) 427 - 4407

[slough shark]

It's crazy that he's still around, last year while I was out hunting south of hardisty I had a landowner ask me to keep his eye out for him to report him if I saw him. He was apparently out hunting in the area and his reputation was preceding him and my landowner buddy (who doesn't even hunt) wanted nothing to do with him.

[JRsMav]

bump

[The Spruce]

I can't belive this crap still goes on. APOS just lost any respect I had for them. Keeping a guy like this around hopefully leads to there demise, it should. Funny all of the APOS lovers aren't defending the mother ship on this thread. Keep the conversation going, ISB has it right, if we keep this dicussion going on long enough the smell will never leave the Poacher it is attached to on the inter-web.:mad0030:

[Lefty-Canuck]

Not all APOS members are less than desirable, many operate in a "clean" fashion.....but for APOS to allow the likes of GWH to remain affiliated it is a poor decision IMHO....keep in mind a large portion of the Alberta population has no idea about the goings on.

LC

[Redfrog]

Has anyone contacted APOS and asked them anything??

Where's their reply?

[elkhunter11]

Not all APOS members are less than desirable, many operate in a "clean" fashion.....but for APOS to allow the likes of GWH to remain affiliated it is a poor decision IMHO....keep in mind a large portion of the Alberta population has no idea about the goings on.


There are some excellent outfitters in Alberta, that despise this type of outfitter behaviour. But the fact that APOS tolerates this type of behavior, makes it clear that as a group, they have no ethics, and they deserve no respect.


Has anyone contacted APOS and asked them anything??

Where's their reply?

Back when the convictions were more recent,myself and others contacted APOS with our concerns. The results were either no response at all, or responses pleading ignorance, or that the charges were being appealed, so no wrongdoing had been established. Basically, they didn't want to know about it.

[The Spruce]

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=199005

Gents,

As I am sure you are aware, a certain APOS member “in good standing” has been convicted on several occasions for committing illegal activities.
The AO thread above has several links describing the various activities this member “in good standing” has been involved with and convicted of.
I am not a supporter of APOS, and due to instances like the one described I never will be. This is not the only “member in good standing” to have been convicted of
Wildlife offences in the province, and still be in APOS’s good books. I am glad to see that APOS is getting “good” publicity over supporting members such as this.

Is there any plans in the future to actually have “Ethics and Standards” within APOS? If so, will they involve revoking the membership of “members in good standing” that are convicted of crimes against Alberta wildlife, or wildlife abroad?

Lastly, when APOS and the Alberta Government meet this Spring to discuss how many allocations APOS will get (far too many again I am sure),
Will crap like this be considered? Always good to hear that APOS has more Mule Deer allocations than Albertan’s in some zones.


Regards,


RF, I sent this lovely email to all three contacts listed in this thread. I am sure it will be disregarded, but hey you never know.

[bruceba]

Hahahaha I'm still laughing 15 minute after I visited the APOS site. If you want a good chuckle go to the APOS site and get the drop down box for About Apos & Outfitting Industry. Click on Ethics Standards and Discipline.
It only comes up with dispute's complaints and appeals, no ethics or standards. OK is that not funny? :)

[elkhunter11]

What I really find amusing, is that you have to pay a $100 administration fee to file a complaint with APOS. That's a great way to discourage complaints.

[Lefty-Canuck]

What I really find amusing, is that you have to pay a $100 administration fee to file a complaint with APOS. That's a great way to discourage complaints.

How many here would be willing to ante up that fee to file a complaint?.....or would they rather just make noise on forums :)

LC

[missingtwo]

I wonder if the media would like this story?????

[elkhunter11]

How many here would be willing to ante up that fee to file a complaint?.....or would they rather just make noise on forums

You have to have been a client of a member outfitter, to be allowed to even file a complaint.

As I posted previously, I contacted APOS just after the convictions, and the appeal was upheld, and I have contacted SRD twice, having posted one reply from SRD, on these forums. APOS is unwilling to discipline their members, and SRD is unwilling to take any action either.

[Lefty-Canuck]

You have to have been a client of a member outfitter, to be allowed to even file a complaint.

As I posted previously, I contacted APOS just after the convictions, and the appeal was upheld, and I have contacted SRD twice, having posted one reply from SRD, on these forums. APOS is unwilling to discipline their members, and SRD is unwilling to take any action either.

Now that is truly amazing....so you basically have to be an out of province client to be able to make a formal complaint? WOW....now that is a truly broken system. Thanks for the insight into that process!

No wonder some guys seem to operate with impunity!

LC

[elkhunter11]

Now that is truly amazing....so you basically have to be an out of province client to be able to make a formal complaint?

Just have a quick look at the complaint forum on their site, and see for yourself. Basically, you can only file a formal complaint after you have paid a member outfitter for a hunt, and then they want another $100 to even look at the complaint.

[Nocked]

Maybe an email to a National News Network inquiring if they could please ask the APOS why the person in question is still in business? Just thinking out loud, sort of. :)

[JRsMav]

I think that's a legitimate idea

[Nocked]

Here is the link to the code of eithics for A POS
Took a little looking because it's kind of hidden away under another heading, but it's there.

http://www.apos.ab.ca/images/stories/pdf/APOS%20Code%20of%20Ethics.pdf

[Huntnut]

I've always wondered how the reputable outfitters feel that apos thinks that people like GWH are just as reputable as them? Why don't they do anything about it?:thinking-006:

[hillbillyreefer]

Here is the link to the code of eithics for A POS
Took a little looking because it's kind of hidden away under another heading, but it's there.

http://www.apos.ab.ca/images/stories/pdf/APOS%20Code%20of%20Ethics.pdf

Doesn't look too difficult to abide by.

Alberta Professional Outfitters Society (APOS) Code of Ethics
In the operation of an outfitted hunting business, a member of the Alberta Professional Outfitters Society (APOS) shall:
1. Not advertise outfitting services unless he is a holder or permitted user of the allocation or waterfowl privileges to be used.
2. Provide a contract describing the terms and conditions for each hunt.
3. Not mislead or misinform a client when discussing the features of their outfitting area or activities.
4. Maintain proficiency, responsibility and professional standards.
5. Ensure safety is a priority at all times during the delivery of contracted services.
6. Employ competent and knowledgeable guides and maintain supervision of their activities.
7. Maintain the highest possible standards in food preparation and accommodations.
8. Be familiar with and adhere to the rules and regulations that pertain to hunting and outfitting in Alberta.
9. Cooperate and respect the reputation and business of fellow APOS members.
10. Respect the rights and activities of resident hunters.
11. Be willing to make restitution when at fault for breach of contract.
12. Along with their employees, respect and maintain the reputation, standards and goals of APOS and not consciously or directly attempt to harm or discredit APOS.

[Nocked]

This is getting interesting and even harder to understand.

APOS
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)
1) Can outfitters pay landowners for exclusive access to private land?

Paid access (leasing) is a common practice in many countries. In Alberta, this process is illegal. Within our province,we believe that hunting should be accessible by all people – regardless of their financial status. No one is allowed to pay a landowner for access – nor is a landowner allowed to solicit for access.

2) How are the numbers of Non Resident (NR) and NonResident Alien (NRA) hunters controlled?

The Outfitter/Guide Policy is designed to balance our privilege to hunt abroad by providing NR and NRA limited opportunities here. This policy (evaluated every 5years) takes into consideration wildlife populations, resident demand,outfitter success, and several other factors. It varies by species and area. Averaged over the last 10 years, slightly under 90% of all hunters in Alberta are residents – the remainder NR and NRAs.

3) How does a person obtain employment in a hunting camp?

Working in a guided hunting expedition may well be one of the most memorable experiences of your lifetime. Camp help, cooks, wranglers, guides – these folks all play a pivotal role in assisting hunting guests to enjoy their Alberta experience. Outfitters are always looking for hardworking people with enthusiasm, integrity, and people skills – contact the APOS office for more information.

4) What impact does outfitted hunting have on resident hunting opportunities?

The Outfitter Guide Policy, which is reviewed every five years, is designed to provide a balance between resident and NR/NRA hunting opportunities. The policy considers resident demand, population estimates,harvest rates, draw success, etc., and generates an allowable NR/NRA harvest as a percentage of the allowable resident harvest. Where resident opportunities are very restricted (such as goats & turkey), there is no outfitted hunting. For species where residents are on a limited draw entry (ie. mule deer), NR/NRA may be allocated a small percentage (3-5%). For species like black bears, where the harvest goal is not achieved by resident hunters, a greater percentage is allocated to the outfitting industry.

5) Is outfitting a lucrative business?

Less than 10% of Alberta’s outfitters rely solely on the income they derive from outfitting; most have at least one other occupation. Outfitting is no different from most businesses – gross revenue and net revenue can be miles apart! License fees, insurance,fuel, wages, advertising, equipment – these are major expenses. The fluctuating value of the Canadian dollar,and international issues such as 9-11, SARS, travel restrictions all, significantly impact revenue. Most outfitters will admit that their wealth is measured more in their friendships with clients than in the monetary rewards.

6) What measures are taken to discipline outfitters who have broken the law?

APOS has developed a comprehensive disciplinary policy, in accordance with accepted legal practice. Depending on the severity of an offence, sanctions vary from a warning letter – to a complete dismissal of an outfitter’s license and allocations. Like other professional organizations, APOS members hold in contempt those whose actions tarnish the tremendous service provided by the majority of our members.

7) What issues are currently before the outfitting industry?

The biggest concern is always the health of our wildlife and environment. Disease, industrial land use, and unsound wildlife management practices can jeopardize nature. Secondly, there are issues regarding access to the resource. Thirdly, anything that creates undue hardships for traveling clients is also a concern.

8) How do Albertans benefit from the outfitting industry?

Wildlife is a renewable resource – much like timber, grain,or cattle. Proper management requires a carefully planned harvest, and offering a limited number of opportunities for non-Albertans is more than simply neighborly. The outfitted hunting industry generates over $100 million of economic activity, and over 1500 people owe their permanent jobs to the operational expenditures of outfitters. Most importantly, our “open door” policy is reciprocated to all Albertans who wish to enjoy hunting opportunities in other jurisdictions.

[TheRealMcCoy]

I personally know Lloyd although I haven't seen him a few years.
Actually he is likeable guy.
He's just one of those people who if had a choice to do things by the book
or do it the illegal way he would take to the illegal way.
My take on Aposs. They are draining money out of our pockets and giving
nothing back. I could go on all day about them. I refuse to recognise they exist. Every time I buy a hunting license I get cross threaded knowing where the money is going.
Enough of my rant.

Happy Trails

[JRsMav]

Just a thought. Would there be any impact if some of us from AO spoke with landowners in the areas he operates out of and went to the counties to possibly get involved? I know first hand how certain landowners (the barons you could say) that do own considerable amounts of land do in fact have some pull at the county offices. Would county officials have any muscle to flex in these cases?

Or in the very least we reach out to landowners around his stomping grounds and have a joint effort with landowners to prohibit him from hunting anywhere

[raven65lunatic]

For those of you wondering why Great White is still in business take a look at their website - unless it's BS neither the province or APOS is going to take this guy down. Extremely successful, 85% return clientele, adds up to big money and lots of connections. Works all the time here in Alberta.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Just a thought. Would there be any impact if some of us from AO spoke with landowners in the areas he operates out of and went to the counties to possibly get involved? I know first hand how certain landowners (the barons you could say) that do own considerable amounts of land do in fact have some pull at the county offices. Would county officials have any muscle to flex in these cases?

Or in the very least we reach out to landowners around his stomping grounds and have a joint effort with landowners to prohibit him from hunting anywhere

Is it possible some of the land owners may be getting kickbacks for allowing him on their land?.....yet others would want nothing to do with him.

LC

[JRsMav]

Im fairly confident there is money exchanging hands lefty. However, One can hope that with enough public pressure slobs like this outfit could be pushed out. I liked the idea one member had of going to media regarding APOS supporting useless POS like this.

[raven65lunatic]

Im fairly confident there is money exchanging hands lefty. However, One can hope that with enough public pressure slobs like this outfit could be pushed out. I liked the idea one member had of going to media regarding APOS supporting useless POS like this.
Does the public care? They have no use for trophy hunting anyway and regular hunters are rightfully concerned with the allotment of tags outfitters get in general. Meaning: everyone is divided and there is little public support for trophy hunting outfitters in general. Both government and APOS know this.

[NativeHunter]

everybody jelous old loyd has killed more big deer then cwd

[JRsMav]

everybody jelous old loyd has killed more big deer then cwd

Is this a serious post?

I can only speak for myself but the day im jealous of lloyd or his pinhead kid jon is the day i give up hunting. Theyre literally jokes as far as 'outdoorsmen' goes. As far as him killing big deer....lol doesnt count when you use high fencing and illegal tactics.

Lol the guys a bloody proven poacher and criminal. Thats all that needs to be said about the POS

[pikergolf]

everybody jelous old loyd has killed more big deer then cwd

Not hard to do when the rule book is out the window, don't know if I'd be bragging about that.

[elkhunter11]

everybody jelous old loyd has killed more big deer then cwd

His most impressive accomplishment, is the number of convictions that he has accumulated.:)

[trophyboy]

Why is anyone surprised at this? ALL outfitters are stealing opportunities from Alberta residents. It amazes me that any average joe hunter would have any use for any of them. They are ALL selfish little rats who have no regard for anyone but themselves.

It would be nice to lobby the government somehow to get rid of outfitting altogether in this province as this is what will inevitably lead to paid hunting. We have far too many people coming to hunt Alberta and far too little game to be hunted. Soon only the rich will be able to afford to hunt and we will all have the outfitters to thank for it. Do something before it is too late!

But really, does anyone really care?????????? Probably not!

[greylynx]

Please send your letter to all three contacts listed.

This will ensure that the government is being notified of your concern and their answers will be important to understand SRD's position on the matter.

Change will not happen by just asking APOS.

Do what Walking Buffalo says.

The current government does not care, but these emails are like live ammunition for the Wild Rose Party. The messages provide substantive documentation for the media, and an important item to bring up in the legislature.

For you fellow geezers out there, just look at Walking Buffalo's list.

Some of these dudes have been out there for the better part of 40years.

Shame.

Get off your keister and email or write a letter to the folks on Walking Buffalo's post.

[raven65lunatic]

APOS is just doing it's job like all the other self regulating industries in Alberta...Nothing! If a few people at the top get their way trapping will go exactly the same way and we will have self administered recreational trapping for the rich.

[j m]

Maybe an email to a National News Network inquiring if they could please ask the APOS why the person in question is still in business? Just thinking out loud, sort of. :)

I did that yesterday, waiting for a response. Still have to get my stuff together and send some emails to my mla & srd. Might as well send one to Wildrose as well.

[DCse7en]

Do we know for sure that APOS has done nothing to discipline this person? I mean, he doesn't obey the law, so why would he care about APOS? He was convicted of so many infractions, it seems it doesn't really matter what anybody says, he will do what he wants anyway. It is frustrating, but you see people like this slip through the cracks all of the time. We need to trust that this system will work eventually, if we do everything that we can.

[Bearen09]

I know how this works!!!!!!!! Pass on the poaching legacy to you son and let him run the company.. Come on guys give your head a shake.. Until his son is charged the company will still run because he himself hasn't done any thing wrong..:)

[elkhunter11]

Do we know for sure that APOS has done nothing to discipline this person?

We do know that after all of the convictions that he has accumulated, his allocations were not revoked, and he is still allowed to outfit. Letting him continue to hold allocations and outfit, is like letting a person that has been convicted of impaired driving, a dozen times, continue to have a valid operators license.

[Don K]

We do know that after all of the convictions that he has accumulated, his allocations were not revoked, and he is still allowed to outfit. Letting him continue to hold allocations and outfit, is like letting a person that has been convicted of impaired driving, a dozen times, continue to have a valid operators license.

And if someone was to do that, imagine the uproar.

[CaberTosser]

everybody jelous old loyd has killed more big deer then cwd

Kind of like being jealous of how many women Uday Hussein got into his bedroom against their will, no? Pffft....

[Salavee]

We do know that after all of the convictions that he has accumulated, his allocations were not revoked, and he is still allowed to outfit. Letting him continue to hold allocations and outfit, is like letting a person that has been convicted of impaired driving, a dozen times, continue to have a valid operators license.

True .. but If APOS takes any disciplinary action against McMahon, keep in mind that they would have to do the same with some others as well. I don't think they want any part of that scenario. The domino effect could hurt the population.

[diamond k]

What about an online petition to say anyone convicted of a wildlife offence in Alberta can longer operate as on outfitter and all allocations will be revoked.

1) eliminates APOS control of the process
2) prevent just transfering allocations to someone else and continuing to operate
3) Cross demograpic support: Hunters, non hunters and general public. No one likes to see abuse of our animal resources
4) these types of petions get noticed by political parties and getting 10,000 outdoorsmen should be a realistic number

I am by no means a computer expert but certainly would throw in $100 do have someone create and manage the collection of signitures

[raven65lunatic]

Who knows whose name the allocations are in? The company? It will always be his son, uncle, cousin, aunt, or whatever. Get used to it; "old Lloyd" is here to stay.

[Salavee]

This whole APOS thing is the responsibility of SRD. Someone in there (SRD)ultimately allowed the Fox to guard the henhouse and we are living with the results of that decision.
Even rank amateur managers would not have allowed that to happen.

Makes you wonder, doesn't it ?

[J D]

What about an online petition to say anyone convicted of a wildlife offence in Alberta can longer operate as on outfitter and all allocations will be revoked.

1) eliminates APOS control of the process
2) prevent just transfering allocations to someone else and continuing to operate
3) Cross demograpic support: Hunters, non hunters and general public. No one likes to see abuse of our animal resources
4) these types of petions get noticed by political parties and getting 10,000 outdoorsmen should be a realistic number

I am by no means a computer expert but certainly would throw in $100 do have someone create and manage the collection of signitures


It sounds like outfitters that poach and trespass is an issue

If you want to see results I would recommend not just a petition but instead get your Alberta hunting association to lobby with support from resident hunters for stiffer penalties( Loosing the right to guide if convicted is a good one). Getting your Alberta hunters association so send in a proposal with a petition with a lot of support has a better chance of getting results

[Torkdiesel]

What about an online petition to say anyone convicted of a wildlife offence in Alberta can longer operate as on outfitter and all allocations will be revoked.

1) eliminates APOS control of the process
2) prevent just transfering allocations to someone else and continuing to operate
3) Cross demograpic support: Hunters, non hunters and general public. No one likes to see abuse of our animal resources
4) these types of petions get noticed by political parties and getting 10,000 outdoorsmen should be a realistic number

I am by no means a computer expert but certainly would throw in $100 do have someone create and manage the collection of signitures

Hard to do this as well. As I stated in another thread that some F&W tend to abuse their power and at times bogus charges and convictions have been handed out. I'm sure this has happened to many residents as well. Then it comes to an issue of what charges constitute losing your allocations ? And what if you were really innocent of the charge ? Then who would decide ?

[pikergolf]

Hard to do this as well. As I stated in another thread that some F&W tend to abuse their power and at times bogus charges and convictions have been handed out. I'm sure this has happened to many residents as well. Then it comes to an issue of what charges constitute losing your allocations ? And what if you were really innocent of the charge ? Then who would decide ?

A Judge decides if you are guilty or innocent. Never have heard a resident cry about F&W abusing their power or judges handing out bogus convictions, sounds like an outfitter thing.

[pikeslayer22]

There was an outfitter out of Viking charged with a bunch of violations last year...not sure what happened or if it was a voluntary thing but I see he has sold out his tags according to his website

[elkhunter11]

Hard to do this as well. As I stated in another thread that some F&W tend to abuse their power and at times bogus charges and convictions have been handed out.

So your argument against having outfitter's allocations revoked, if convicted of offenses, is that you don't trust the F&W officers, or the court judges?:rolleye2:

That is a pretty pathetic argument. Although I have been hunting over 40 years, I haven't heard of many hunters being convicted of violations, unless they were actually guilty.
It's usually more a case of violators being let off too easily, once they were convicted. I have have heard of quotas police for writing speeding tickets, but I have yet to hear of quotas for violations under the Wildlife Act.

What I do hear and read about are outfitters like GWH being convicted of multiple offenses, on multiple occasions, yet he is still allowed to continue outfitting. Obviously APOS is not doing their job in disciplining these people, and SRD does need to get involved to see that these people are dealt with.

[hal53]

Sounds to me as though some "outfitters" are a little concerned that if the Gov't. forces APOS to clean up their act regarding jerks like Lloyd, they may have to review their entire membership,...little bit of nervous feet shuffling here????....

[Torkdiesel]

Sounds to me as though some "outfitters" are a little concerned that if the Gov't. forces APOS to clean up their act regarding jerks like Lloyd, they may have to review their entire membership,...little bit of nervous feet shuffling here????....

Not at all. But would hate to lose something valuable because somebody was on a power trip :(

If the gov. would step in to take care of these parasites I would be more then pleased.

[hal53]

Not at all. But would hate to lose something valuable because somebody was on a power trip :(
agree completely, but APOS and you guys are losing a lot of credibility over the non-action, no?

[Torkdiesel]

A Judge decides if you are guilty or innocent. Never have heard a resident cry about F&W abusing their power or judges handing out bogus convictions, sounds like an outfitter thing.

Why don't you flip back through the pages of this forum, prob wouldn't take too long to find one.

[Torkdiesel]

agree completely, but APOS and you guys are losing a lot of credibility over the non-action, no?

100% hal, if it was up to me the house would have been cleaned years ago. Unfortunately I do not have that kind of pull. I sold out my outfit and only guide for a friend now. One day when I have more time to get involved I will definitely be pushing for some things to change.

[walking buffalo]

For those who wish to influence Outfitter Policy change the time to speak up is NOW!

The Outfitter/Guide Policy review is under way.


Consider this the prenuptials to a marriage.

"If anybody has any objections speak now or forever hold your peace"

[bchap22]

I know that Mcmahon's were busted for baiting deer this year north of Lloydminster. Caught red handed in the stand by a F&W officer from Sherwood park. Im sure they will get another slap on the wrist and sent on their way.

[salamander]

Here is a link to some of the Alberta Court decisions regarding outfitters. The most instructive is Stout vs. Chez Outdoors Ltd. I believe it is considered precedent setting in terms of APOS.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7zwa9s29vkhdfn5/9aujcnnfJG/Outfitter%20Court%20Judgements

[JRsMav]

I did that yesterday, waiting for a response. Still have to get my stuff together and send some emails to my mla & srd. Might as well send one to Wildrose as well.

have you had any responses from media types regarding your emails?

[JRsMav]

I too have sent an email to CTV Edmonton challenging them to take on a story about GWH and APOS. Get a camera in the faces of APOS directors. Would be nice to know other members have done the same!

I think the time has passed to whine and complain on AO. The time has also passed on the option of leaving it up to SRD or trying to get SRD involved. I would like to see a major news network get cameras out and force APOS to answer legitimate questions in the public eye.

[Sealclubber]

All this APOS bashing...wow. Geez almost makes me want to get a real job instead of guiding for a living. Btw not all of us in the outdoor industry are like this guy, personally I'd like to see his allocations pulled. Guys like him give guys like me a bad name:

[KegRiver]

I'm not real happy about all the outfitter/guide bashing.
I used to be a big game guide, some very close friends are outfitters and guides.

But I personally know two outfitter/guides who I wouldn't want my name associated with in any way.

I don't know that APOS is the problem though. That's like blaming a prisoners advocacy group for the recidivism rate.

[Lefty-Canuck]

I think it is more like a parole officer turning a blind eye when the delinquent keeps stealing cars.

LC

[KegRiver]

I think it is more like a parole officer turning a blind eye when the delinquent keeps stealing cars.

LC

That's an even better way of putting it.

But the solution is not just to throw the delinquent in jail. One must fire the parole officer as well. And one needs to have a in depth look at whoever was supposed to be supervising that parole officer.

[JRsMav]

bump

[Cowtown guy]

I'm not real happy about all the outfitter/guide bashing.
I used to be a big game guide, some very close friends are outfitters and guides.

But I personally know two outfitter/guides who I wouldn't want my name associated with in any way.

I don't know that APOS is the problem though. That's like blaming a prisoners advocacy group for the recidivism rate.

Holy crap Keg! We're rednecks you know. Don't go making us look all smrt and stuff.

[Sled Ed]

:party0052:

ha good one this should get good

[JRsMav]

ha good one this should get good

This thread is now 4 pages long. Hasn't gone awol yet. Not really understanding why you think 'this should get good'

[ganderblaster]

Email sent to Dave.

[walking buffalo]

Email sent to Dave.

Did you receive a response?

[abhunter8]

I guided for an outfitter in 2000 and 2 Americans that were in our camp had gone hunting with Lloyd Mcmahon a few years prior and Lloyd asked them if they wanted to go up in a helicopter and shoot a really big buck. They both declined but they said another hunter did go! Now isn't that ethical hunting!! I also had this guy almost run me and my farmer friend off the road in the Elk point area years ago. I don't know how this guy hasn't got worse than a prison sentence!

[Ronji]

All this APOS bashing...wow. Geez almost makes me want to get a real job instead of guiding for a living. Btw not all of us in the outdoor industry are like this guy, personally I'd like to see his allocations pulled. Guys like him give guys like me a bad name:

Well said. Thank you.

[bchap22]

All this APOS bashing...wow. Geez almost makes me want to get a real job instead of guiding for a living. Btw not all of us in the outdoor industry are like this guy, personally I'd like to see his allocations pulled. Guys like him give guys like me a bad name:

I agree that not all outfitters are dirt bags but in the same sentence you outfitters and guides need to band together and get idiots like him thrown out and have his allocations pulled. IMO you guys need to keep each other in check and report unethical practices!

[elkhunter11]

I agree that not all outfitters are dirt bags but in the same sentence you outfitters and guides need to band together and get idiots like him thrown out and have his allocations pulled. IMO you guys need to keep each other in check and report unethical practices!

After reading the response by the APOS president, in the other thread, it becomes quite apparent, that APOS really doesn't care who they have as members.

[Sealclubber]

I would totally love to see the current system revamped actually.

[bobalong]

All this APOS bashing...wow. Geez almost makes me want to get a real job instead of guiding for a living. Btw not all of us in the outdoor industry are like this guy, personally I'd like to see his allocations pulled. Guys like him give guys like me a bad name:

So what have you done (as an APOS member) to have his allocations pulled?I have asked this many times on here, WHY have all the "good" outfitters not stood together and convinced the APOS brass to put an end to his and other bad outfitters careers.

It is quite obvious through numerous threads on here about bad outfitters, that the only real change is going to have come from within the org. but none of you seem to want to step up to clean up the org.........why is that?

[Sealclubber]

Cuz I'm not an outfitter just a lowly guide who makes a meager living doing a job he loves...LEGALLY AND WITH INTEGRITY! Asking a guide to change the APOS rules is like asking the guy who takes your order at hortons to set corporate policy.

[bobalong]

Cuz I'm not an outfitter just a lowly guide who makes a meager living doing a job he loves...LEGALLY AND WITH INTEGRITY! Asking a guide to change the APOS rules is like asking the guy who takes your order at hortons to set corporate policy.

Sorry, not buying that, you are "in" the organization whether you like it or not, and it would appear you are comfortable letting some one else "give you a bad name" as you put it, and not do one thing about it.............like so many others in the industry.

Your comparison to Tim Hortons is off a bit........think about this. Can a person who takes your order report his Manager for doing something illegal, or violating human rights, etc,............of course he can, he just needs to have a pair.

[JRsMav]

And thats a pretty valid point SC. I think certain things get buried that would otherwise be viewed as infractions simpy because we are actually talking about guys with some pretty deep pockets (outfitters). If not cash money worth, land wealthy. Im sure a lot of money exchanges hands and a lot of handshake deals are made that helps to push negatives off to the side.

[JRsMav]

Sorry, not buying that, you are "in" the organization whether you like it or not, and it would appear you are comfortable letting some one else "give you a bad name" as you put it, and not do one thing about it.............like so many others in the industry.

Your comparison to Tim Hortons is off a bit........think about this. Can a person who takes your order report his Manager for doing something illegal, or violating human rights, etc,............of course he can, he just needs to have a pair.

Sure tim hortons guy reports his manager, but he probably also loses his job and struggles to get hired at another tim hortons

[Sealclubber]

Sorry, not buying that, you are "in" the organization whether you like it or not, and it would appear you are comfortable letting some one else "give you a bad name" as you put it, and not do one thing about it.............like so many others in the industry.

Your comparison to Tim Hortons is off a bit........think about this. Can a person who takes your order report his Manager for doing something illegal, or violating human rights, etc,............of course he can, he just needs to have a pair.

I have a pair and I have reported an outfitter I worked for to the f&w nobody ever got back to me on that one Kinda p****d me off. And jr your exactly right about the whole hard finding another job in the industry part thats why I reported his ass anonymously so that didn't happen.

[bobalong]

Sure tim hortons guy reports his manager, but he probably also loses his job and struggles to get hired at another tim hortons

Or, if reports are substantiated, Manager gets charged and looses his job, order taker gets promotion. Sorry, I never see the down side of reporting things you know to be true, Right is Might. If Tim Horton or any other company would choose to protect someone who has done something illegal or violated worker rights over the person who reported it, I would choose not to work for that company anyway. If a company and my views are that out of whack, I could never be happy there anyway.

Quote
You do not wake up one morning a bad person, it happens with thousands of small sacrifices of self respect for self interest.

[bobalong]

Sure tim hortons guy reports his manager, but he probably also loses his job and struggles to get hired at another tim hortons

.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Guys, what is really sad the old f--t was recently featured in Willmore Societies excellent book as one of the great early day Willmore sheep guides and outfitters.

[Torkdiesel]

Guys, what is really sad the old f--t was recently featured in Willmore Societies excellent book as one of the great early day Willmore sheep guides and outfitters.

Different family.

[ganderblaster]

Did you receive a response?

Nope! Just re-sent.:angry3: I lack the skill other forum members have at these but here it is.

Hi Dave,

I find the way your department has let APOS take control of disciplining its members to be unacceptable.
Numerous members have been proven in court to be repeat offenders of the Wildlife Act and yet no disciplinary action is taken by APOS and they are able to continue to make a profit from their criminal activities at the expense of all Albertans. The frustration levels of legal,law abiding Alberta sportsmen is at an all time high and I fear for the future.
Please keep this in mind as future government protocol regarding APOS is reviewed.

[Esox]

Different family.

Pretty sure its the same family, I believe Pete and Lloyd are brothers.

[nube]

Pretty sure its the same family, I believe Pete and Lloyd are brothers.

You are correct they are bro's. 2 different peas in the pod though.

[xxclaro]

Yup, worked for both and Pete is a great guy, if I could afford it I'd hunt with him for sure.

[nube]

Yup, worked for both and Pete is a great guy, if I could afford it I'd hunt with him for sure.

X2 Great guy

[mightybuck]

I have known pete for years and he is a great guy and good sheep hunter. Knows the willmore like the back of his hand.

[Torkdiesel]

That's what I meant by different family (not a criminal)

[walking buffalo]

Nope! Just re-sent.:angry3: I lack the skill other forum members have at these but here it is.

Hi Dave,

I find the way your department has let APOS take control of disciplining its members to be unacceptable.
Numerous members have been proven in court to be repeat offenders of the Wildlife Act and yet no disciplinary action is taken by APOS and they are able to continue to make a profit from their criminal activities at the expense of all Albertans. The frustration levels of legal,law abiding Alberta sportsmen is at an all time high and I fear for the future.
Please keep this in mind as future government protocol regarding APOS is reviewed.



In all fairness, I wouldn't expect a response if this all that was sent.
You didn't ask any questions or request him to reply to your comments. ;)

I'm sure that Dave will keep your thoughts in mind. :)