Happy Loius Riel Day! [Archive] - Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum

Jamie

02-17-2014, 10:44 PM

That Louie riel got all uppity.

If by uppity you mean this

..Riel was now seeking to obtain as many personal supporters among the English-speaking community as he could, and it was with that view he sent Dan Shea to solicit the suffrages of the prisoners resident at Portage La Prairie. It was this effort on Riel's part that caused Scott to warn the prisoners not to vote for him, and which, consequently, enraged Riel against him. Later on, Scott asked leave to go outside, and was refused by the guards, which led to an altercation. Riel and O'Donogue visited the prison once or twice that afternoon and evening, and used violent language towards Scott. A court-martial was convened to try Scott, composed of Lepine, as president and some of the guards as members, upon whom Riel no doubt wished, with mock show of legality, to throw the responsibility of taking Scott's life. Feeling anxious about what was going on, I asked the guard's permission to go into Scott's room to see him, and questioned him as to what had taken place. I found that similar questions had been put to him as had been put to me, and the same mode of passing sentence had been passed upon him as was passed upon me. I told Scott to be very careful what he said, as, I felt sure that Riel meant mischief and would take his life if he could. I also told him that my life had been spared only in consequence of the exertions that had been made on my behalf. He had sent for the Rev. Mr. Young to come and see him, who arrived some time during the night. Riel had got the opportunity he now wanted, which was to commit his people to an act of violence. Heretofore, there had been no violence or resistance to his wrong doings, but Scott, he thought, had now given sufficient provocation for him to work upon his guards. He represented to his people that Scott was a dangerous man, and if he ever got at large he would take his revenge. So he worked up their feelings to the pitch he desired; at least that is the idea we formed at the time. Riel came in to my room about 11 o'clock on the morning of Scott's death. I spoke to him and said, "Don't you think you are doing a most imprudent act for your own safety in shooting Scott; don't you know enough about history to realize that England has never yet left the most remote region unpenetrated, to punish those who take the life of a British subject?" The only answer I got was, "I did not come here to talk to you about that," and he made some passing remark and went away...

This was one of the bigger reasons he was hung.

Funny they taught us in school one thing, but then when you do your own looking the truth comes out.

Jamie

Kurt505

02-17-2014, 10:49 PM

Hooray for domestic terrorism, settler style!

(for the record, I have no opinion on the matter, I am just bound by my personality to be a smartass)

Roflmao

Big Daddy Badger

02-17-2014, 10:52 PM

The irony is that so many people do not appreciate how much better off all of us in the west would be... had Riel succeeded.

brownbomber

02-17-2014, 11:13 PM

I think in context to modern times a lot of members here would think differently but I don't want to get into it.

Big Daddy Badger

02-17-2014, 11:32 PM

I think in context to modern times a lot of members here would think differently but I don't want to get into it.

You are correct... it is easier to believe that Riel was a nut than that their government boned them before they were even born.

KegRiver

02-17-2014, 11:47 PM

Funny they taught us in school one thing, but then when you do your own looking the truth comes out.

Jamie

I didn't know much about the so called rebellion until a very kind AO member sent me a Gatling gun casing from that time.

In trying to find out more about this Gatling gun casing I found several historic documents that lead me to believe the Riel was no rebel. Rather he was a local politician who wanted to form a legal government where there was no government of any sort. And he wanted province status for the area we now call Saskatchewan, but then was called the North West Territories.

rwm1273

02-17-2014, 11:48 PM

Happy Loius Riel day to all the wonderful Metis people of canada. Today is a day to celebrate a true Canadian Hero! The last politician to have a pair, and stood up for what was right!

Unfortunately in our schools we were taught he was a traitor.

Happy Louis Riel day.

rwm1273

02-17-2014, 11:51 PM

:sHa_shakeshout:

3..........2.........1

You do know what forum your putting this on right? :scared0018:

Where is the popcorn emoticon?

KegRiver

02-17-2014, 11:51 PM

It seems that after decades of discrimination by the federal government, the metis people of Canada are getting official recognition as being Native people.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Court+decision+ends+ambiguity+status+Indians+Metis +officially+Indians/7789924/story.html

rwm1273

02-17-2014, 11:53 PM

brownbomber

02-18-2014, 12:09 AM

But, but. they are .....Metis!

Lol, define it. 40% of western canada be métis if you go back far enough. On the métis settlement level haven't seen anything regarding this. Don't card if I do or not.

Jamie

02-18-2014, 12:16 AM

I didn't know much about the so called rebellion until a very kind AO member sent me a Gatling gun casing from that time.

In trying to find out more about this Gatling gun casing I found several historic documents that lead me to believe the Riel was no rebel. Rather he was a local politician who wanted to form a legal government where there was no government of any sort. And he wanted province status for the area we now call Saskatchewan, but then was called the North West Territories.

Dig deeper.
History is tossed up as to a actual label.

Jamie

rwm1273

02-18-2014, 12:55 AM

Lol, define it. 40% of western canada be métis if you go back far enough. On the métis settlement level haven't seen anything regarding this. Don't card if I do or not.

Funny thing about today, is we are more interested in knowing where others came from, than understanding why we came.

I often wonder why many Metis have had less rights than many of the Natives. Most Metis I know have more direct Native lineage than many status Natives do. I know the government has tried very hard to cut who is eligible for treaty rights.

brownbomber

02-18-2014, 01:06 AM

Funny thing about today, is we are more interested in knowing where others came from, than understanding why we came.

I often wonder why many Metis have had less rights than many of the Natives. Most Metis I know have more direct Native lineage than many status Natives do. I know the government has tried very hard to cut who is eligible for treaty rights.

My grandfather was disenfranchised but was mostly métis anyway, native features but very light skinned and blue eyes. He was a vet, lost status while serving, got shot in holland. So anyway then figures okay fine will gladly take the benefits and services given to other veterans..... because you are a Indian under the Indian act there are other options available to you.. But I gave up my status.... We will talk about this later. You are now metis.
My grandmother on the other hand has been métis a long time. Descended from Louis riels good buddy Gabriel Dumont.

rwm1273

02-18-2014, 01:12 AM

My grandfather was disenfranchised but was mostly métis anyway, native features but very light skinned and blue eyes. He was a vet, lost status while serving, got shot in holland. So anyway then figures okay fine will gladly take the benefits and services given to other veterans..... because you are a Indian under the Indian act there are other options available to you.. But I gave up my status.... We will talk about this later. You are now metis.
My grandmother on the other hand has been métis a long time. Descended from Louis riels good buddy Gabriel Dumont.

That is some interesting lineage.

I never did understand the reason why they were considered traitors. In fact it was the first time I questioned what I was being taught in school. But then again history is written by the victors.

brownbomber

02-18-2014, 01:42 AM

That is some interesting lineage.

I never did understand the reason why they were considered traitors. In fact it was the first time I questioned what I was being taught in school. But then again history is written by the victors.

Yup and my mothers dad was gamekeeper for the lord of airlie (another interesting relative) I'm truly a métis/native/Scottish 57.

Matt L.

02-18-2014, 06:49 AM

That is some interesting lineage.

I never did understand the reason why they were considered traitors. In fact it was the first time I questioned what I was being taught in school. But then again history is written by the victors.

That's one reason I really liked being homeschooled. When it came time to study the Riel Rebellion I was able to find my own resources rather than Gov approved ones. Probably why I've always admired Dumont and never seen Riel as a traitor.

1899b

02-18-2014, 06:57 AM

My grandfather was disenfranchised but was mostly métis anyway, native features but very light skinned and blue eyes. He was a vet, lost status while serving, got shot in holland. So anyway then figures okay fine will gladly take the benefits and services given to other veterans..... because you are a Indian under the Indian act there are other options available to you.. But I gave up my status.... We will talk about this later. You are now metis.
My grandmother on the other hand has been métis a long time. Descended from Louis riels good buddy Gabriel Dumont.

Some very rich history there. Thank you for your sharing. Interesting for sure....

Dirt2oil

02-18-2014, 07:30 AM

That's one reason I really liked being homeschooled. When it came time to study the Riel Rebellion I was able to find my own resources rather than Gov approved ones. Probably why I've always admired Dumont and never seen Riel as a traitor.

Well said! Too often we have taken text books as the gospel. Right or wrong we are at the mercy of another's interpretation of history.

rugatika

02-18-2014, 07:30 AM

He was a megalomaniac. He thought he was divinely chosen by God to lead. This is a Canadian hero? Seems about right. (and I fully admit I have not studied the subject as thoroughly as I should...I withold my right to be completely and utterly wrong. :))

Something about elevating these guys to hero status I always find disturbing. He was a violent criminal that was absolutely certifiably crazy. I'm somewhat baffled by people that elevate the Che Gueverra's, and Louis Riel's to hero status.

Grizzly Adams

02-18-2014, 07:30 AM

If by uppity you mean this

..Riel was now seeking to obtain as many personal supporters among the English-speaking community as he could, and it was with that view he sent Dan Shea to solicit the suffrages of the prisoners resident at Portage La Prairie. It was this effort on Riel's part that caused Scott to warn the prisoners not to vote for him, and which, consequently, enraged Riel against him. Later on, Scott asked leave to go outside, and was refused by the guards, which led to an altercation. Riel and O'Donogue visited the prison once or twice that afternoon and evening, and used violent language towards Scott. A court-martial was convened to try Scott, composed of Lepine, as president and some of the guards as members, upon whom Riel no doubt wished, with mock show of legality, to throw the responsibility of taking Scott's life. Feeling anxious about what was going on, I asked the guard's permission to go into Scott's room to see him, and questioned him as to what had taken place. I found that similar questions had been put to him as had been put to me, and the same mode of passing sentence had been passed upon him as was passed upon me. I told Scott to be very careful what he said, as, I felt sure that Riel meant mischief and would take his life if he could. I also told him that my life had been spared only in consequence of the exertions that had been made on my behalf. He had sent for the Rev. Mr. Young to come and see him, who arrived some time during the night. Riel had got the opportunity he now wanted, which was to commit his people to an act of violence. Heretofore, there had been no violence or resistance to his wrong doings, but Scott, he thought, had now given sufficient provocation for him to work upon his guards. He represented to his people that Scott was a dangerous man, and if he ever got at large he would take his revenge. So he worked up their feelings to the pitch he desired; at least that is the idea we formed at the time. Riel came in to my room about 11 o'clock on the morning of Scott's death. I spoke to him and said, "Don't you think you are doing a most imprudent act for your own safety in shooting Scott; don't you know enough about history to realize that England has never yet left the most remote region unpenetrated, to punish those who take the life of a British subject?" The only answer I got was, "I did not come here to talk to you about that," and he made some passing remark and went away...

This was one of the bigger reasons he was hung.

Funny they taught us in school one thing, but then when you do your own looking the truth comes out.

Jamie

Actually, one of the bigger reason he was hung was the Orange vote in Southern Ontario. Lot of sympathy for Riel in Catholic Quebec, but the Irish Protestant faction of Ontario demanded his execution. Wishy , washy Mac Donald had to decide who would be less offended, so Louis got the short end of the rope. Given all the evidence, you get an impression of a man who was seriously mentally ill, but that wouldn't be anything new with your popular folk hero class. :D

Grizz

sns2

02-18-2014, 07:30 AM

But then again history is written by the victors.

Always has been. Always will be.

I teach Social 7 which is Canadian History. When we study this period in our history, the students are asked to do an assignment where THEY make up their own minds as to whether he was a hero or a villain, justifying their opinion with critical thinking. I don't think there is a single teacher in Alberta that does not do this assignment (or some version of it that allows the students to make up their own minds).

School has changed since you old farts were there. In some ways for the better. In most ways for the worse.

rwm1273

02-18-2014, 07:35 AM

Always has been. Always will be.

I teach Social 7 which is Canadian History. When we study this period in our history, the students are asked to do an assignment where THEY make up their own minds as to whether he was a hero or a villain, justifying their opinion with critical thinking. I don't think there is a single teacher in Alberta that does not do this assignment (or some version of it that allows the students to make up their own minds).

School has changed since you old farts were there. In some ways for the better. In most ways for the worse.

Old farts? "What you talkin bout Wilis!" Or is that over your head?

I do notice with my kid's schooling that they don't have the same kind of structure I had as a kid. And the administration of the schools has changed drastically. Not sure how or why it has, but there are way to many left wing pinkos running schools these days.

sns2

02-18-2014, 07:47 AM

Old farts? "What you talkin bout Wilis!" Or is that over your head?

I do notice with my kid's schooling that they don't have the same kind of structure I had as a kid. And the administration of the schools has changed drastically. Not sure how or why it has, but there are way to many left wing pinkos running schools these days.

That was an excellent show, but paled in comparison to my favorite, All in the Family!

Left wing pinkos? I don't know about that, but there is certainly a disconnect that often happens when a teacher leaves the class and becomes an administrator. But you know that holds true in many walks of life; someone becomes the foreman and they forget what it was like to be on the tools. Right?

I have to shoot straight with you though. If we treated kids the way they did 35 yrs ago, my guess is that 90+% of you would be in the "left-wing pinko" principal's office complaining about how the teacher is too strict or unfair.

rwm1273

02-18-2014, 08:05 AM

That was an excellent show!

Left wing pinkos? I don't know about that, but there is certainly a disconnect that often happens when a teacher leaves the class and becomes an administrator. But you know that holds true in many walks of life; someone becomes the foreman and they forget what it was like to be on the tools. Right?

I have to shoot straight with you though. If we treated kids the way they did 35 yrs ago, my guess is that 90+% of you would be in the "left-wing pinko" principal's office complaining about how the teacher is too strict or unfair.

Perhaps we need stricter teachers today.

My issue is not so much with the teachers, but with the administration of the schools.

At my son's school, the administration is very much against hunting and shooting sports, and my son has been disciplined for speaking about it several times. In fact I have been called down to the school and been lectured about how weapons are bad. Conversation changed pretty quick when I point out the difference between a weapon and firearm, and how it was a weapon that gives them the right to have the attitude they currently have.

As for my daughter's former school, the administration was more interested in protecting a couple boys who were molesting and harassing all the kids on the bus, only because they were deaf. If it was not for an ally I had in the school office, and then with the busing company, I would never had known what was going on. When I found out and spoke to the principal of the school, I was threatened with legal action, as were the other parents of one girl who we had similar things happen to their daughter, we approached the principal together to deal with the issue. The principal and her assistant wanted to keep both families from discussing the issue together, as they felt it would be easier to deal with us individually, and therefore bully us more easily. That just was the wrong approach, and caused the situation to spiral out of their control. It turns out the two boys were pictured on the school calender and were used in public funding campaigns.

However in my day, schooling was not all the best either. As a student, it was the teacher's word or nothing. If you had a bad teacher, you got bad grades, and there seemed little you or even your parents could do about it. I would have failed Social Studies in grade 12 if it was not for the fact I aced the departmental exam, and that was because the teacher had a particular attitude about the cause and effect of WW2. And in earlier days when we were taught about the Riel Rebellion, it was very clear that we were to consider him a traitor and that he was executed for a good reason.

sns2

02-18-2014, 08:20 AM

Perhaps we need stricter teachers today.

My issue is not so much with the teachers, but with the administration of the schools.

At my son's school, the administration is very much against hunting and shooting sports, and my son has been disciplined for speaking about it several times. In fact I have been called down to the school and been lectured about how weapons are bad. Conversation changed pretty quick when I point out the difference between a weapon and firearm, and how it was a weapon that gives them the right to have the attitude they currently have.

As for my daughter's former school, the administration was more interested in protecting a couple boys who were molesting and harassing all the kids on the bus, only because they were deaf. If it was not for an ally I had in the school office, and then with the busing company, I would never had known what was going on. When I found out and spoke to the principal of the school, I was threatened with legal action, as were the other parents of one girl who we had similar things happen to their daughter, we approached the principal together to deal with the issue. The principal and her assistant wanted to keep both families from discussing the issue together, as they felt it would be easier to deal with us individually, and therefore bully us more easily. That just was the wrong approach, and caused the situation to spiral out of their control. It turns out the two boys were pictured on the school calender and were used in public funding campaigns.

However in my day, schooling was not all the best either. As a student, it was the teacher's word or nothing. If you had a bad teacher, you got bad grades, and there seemed little you or even your parents could do about it. I would have failed Social Studies in grade 12 if it was not for the fact I aced the departmental exam, and that was because the teacher had a particular attitude about the cause and effect of WW2. And in earlier days when we were taught about the Riel Rebellion, it was very clear that we were to consider him a traitor and that he was executed for a good reason.

What kind of school do your kids attend? I don't understand your comments about public funding campaigns, as schools are funded by gov't.

rwm1273

02-18-2014, 08:26 AM

What kind of school do your kids attend? I don't understand your comments about public funding campaigns, as schools are funded by gov't.

My daughter went to Tevie Millar school in Edmonton. Part of the school was the school for the deaf, and the other side of the school was for kids with speech delays. Much of their funding was from the parents, and it cost over $3000 a year for the program my daughter was in. And they did get lots of public donations to support their programs, as well as government funding. It has more teachers per student than most other schools.

sns2

02-18-2014, 08:28 AM

My daughter went to Tevie Millar school in Edmonton. Part of the school was the school for the deaf, and the other side of the school was for kids with speech delays. Much of their funding was from the parents, and it cost over $3000 a year for the program my daughter was in. And they did get lots of public donations to support their programs, as well as government funding. It has more teachers per student than most other schools.

Gotcha.

sns2

02-18-2014, 08:35 AM

However in my day, schooling was not all the best either. As a student, it was the teacher's word or nothing. If you had a bad teacher, you got bad grades, and there seemed little you or even your parents could do about it. I would have failed Social Studies in grade 12 if it was not for the fact I aced the departmental exam, and that was because the teacher had a particular attitude about the cause and effect of WW2.

Gotta call a bit of BS on this part. Social 30, even when we were in school was a combination of political and economic systems & modern history from the end of WWI up to present times. WWII, while my very favourite subject to teach, only forms a small part of a student's mark. Even if you disagreed with the teacher's views, you had a ton of opportunity to work hard and get a good mark.

Maybe you were too busy smoking pot, drinking booze, chasing skirts, or playing Atari, rather than studying for Social:)

BTW, just so you don't think I am wasting taxpayer money by posting on AO, I am at home with a sick, puking kid today. Too bad Canada isn't playing today. The Russia - Norway game was boring.

Okotokian

02-18-2014, 09:09 AM

Congratulations! Enjoy your day!

But you still can't hunt wherever you want. LOL :scared0018:

(kidding, kidding)

Nice derail guys!

greylynx

02-18-2014, 09:18 AM

My grandfather was disenfranchised but was mostly métis anyway, native features but very light skinned and blue eyes. He was a vet, lost status while serving, got shot in holland. So anyway then figures okay fine will gladly take the benefits and services given to other veterans..... because you are a Indian under the Indian act there are other options available to you.. But I gave up my status.... We will talk about this later. You are now metis.
My grandmother on the other hand has been métis a long time. Descended from Louis riels good buddy Gabriel Dumont.

Gabriel Dumont? WOW.:sHa_shakeshout:

Another great western Canadian.

I still wonder to this day if Reil ws crazy, or if this malady was fabricated by the Ontario orangemen of the time.

CanuckShooter

02-18-2014, 09:47 AM

that's what happens when you give up Religion for Politics,,,

awww shucks,,some trivia to lighten the topic,, my great grampa marched with N.W.M.P. to Northern Sask to take some guy back to Regina for a paid Holiday !

Have you ever read about his political history? It's actually quite interesting, especially the part about the provisional government they had formed prior to canada coming into being.....

CanuckShooter

02-18-2014, 09:51 AM

Lol, define it. 40% of western canada be métis if you go back far enough. On the métis settlement level haven't seen anything regarding this. Don't card if I do or not.

Perhaps that explains why the western provinces get short changed on seats in parliament??? Historically they sure wanted nothing to do with Riel being in the parliament building.

brownbomber

02-18-2014, 09:51 AM

Gabriel Dumont? WOW.:sHa_shakeshout:

Another great western Canadian.

I still wonder to this day if Reil ws crazy, or if this malady was fabricated by the Ontario orangemen of the time.

I believe a little of both. I think the Protestant/catholic dynamic at the time contributed somewhat to it.

nekred

02-18-2014, 10:31 AM

Freedom fighter or terrorist.....

Revolutionist or traitor....

The winners write history.... until hollywood gets a hold of the story and re-spin it....

William Wallace was executed for treason even though his allegiance was never owed to the King of England....

Loius Riel was not a traitor to Canada but to the British commonwealth because the NW territories owed their allegiance to Britain under the British North America Act. He acted contrary to the established authority of that time... even though it was very murky as to who was in charge......

It is a compelling story and had all sorts of ramifications for the future of this country we call Canada. It was part of the growing pains.....

George Washington and Louis Riel.... many comparisons.... One won and one did not.... George Washington would have been executed for treason by the British Government along with all of his soldiers who were considered traitors in eyes of British government which is why there were the atrocities there were.

brownbomber

02-18-2014, 10:36 AM

Wild&Free

02-18-2014, 11:41 AM

Freedom isn't free as most revolutionaries quickly discover.

CanuckShooter

02-18-2014, 11:48 AM

Freedom isn't free as most revolutionaries quickly discover.

What exactly is freedom? Are you a free man when you are forced to pay taxes? Are you free when you are required to produce papers to leave the country??

Anyone that thinks there is actually such a thing as 'freedom' is sadly misinformed, there are only different levels of permissions given depending upon where you live.

sns2

02-18-2014, 11:50 AM

Very well said nekred!
Kinda what I wanted to say, but seems a lot more legit with your address and not mine.
Wanted to not weigh to heavily on this subject but just didn't want to argue that my opinion was tilted by heritage.

Brownbomber,

My ethnic heritage is Ukrainian. My ancestors, who came to this country at the request of the Government of Canada, worked tirelessly to settle central Alberta, and have been recognized for their efforts at the Ukrainian Cultural Village east of Edmonton. My relatives were interned in work camps, had whatever wealth they had confiscated, were declared "enemy aliens" by the same gov't that invited them here and benefitted from their efforts, were treated brutally as they were forced to help build Banff National Park, and were kept for a couple of years even after WWI had ended. My people never received any compensation for this, nor would they have, had they asked. They died. I never met them. All I receive from the Federal gov't is a tax bill.

Wrongs in the past have happened to your people by the gov't too.

Please tell me why you should receive preferential treatment over me?

I will be above board and tell you that I believe for the good of all people, any and all benefits from any level of gov't for First Nations people, except educational benefits, should cease with this generation. Why? Because this generation will be the last with any direct tie to residential schools and that issued has been formally acknowledged and settled, as best as it could be, acknowledging that a paycheque doesn't cure emotional pain.

Education is the only way out of the bleak future that the vast majority of First Nations people currently face. The system benefits no one really and is inexorably broken and corrupt.

The best show on Canadian television right now is Blackstone. No doubt you are familiar with it. I was a consultant during it's first season and contributed to many of the characters and story-lines because of my knowledge and firsthand experience working with disenfranchised aboriginal young people, so I am not speaking without some connection and knowledge of the issues from many perspectives.

I look forward to your response.

Let me also say in advance that I appreciate your honesty and candor because no doubt a forum such as this isn't the easiest for you to present your views, but conversations such as these, even at the grassroots levels, are the seeds of ideas that eventually become policies.

ChillyRider

02-18-2014, 11:52 AM

Happy Loius Riel day to all the wonderful Metis people of canada. Today is a day to celebrate a true Canadian Hero! The last politician to have a pair, and stood up for what was right!

Only Manitoba would name a holiday after a traitor. Glad I moved away.

brownbomber

02-18-2014, 11:58 AM

Brownbomber,

My ethnic heritage is Ukrainian. My ancestors, who came to this country at the request of the Government of Canada, worked tirelessly to settle central Alberta, and have been recognized for their efforts at the Ukrainian Cultural Village east of Edmonton. My relatives were interned in work camps, had whatever wealth they had confiscated, were declared "enemy aliens" by the same gov't that invited them here and benefitted from their efforts, were treated brutally as they were forced to help build Banff National Park, and were kept for a couple of years even after WWI had ended. My people never received any compensation for this, nor would they have, had they asked. They died. I never met them. All I receive from the Federal gov't is a tax bill.

Wrongs in the past have happened to your people by the gov't too.

Please tell me why you should receive preferential treatment over me?

I will be above board and tell you that I believe for the good of all people, any and all benefits from any level of gov't for First Nations people, except educational benefits, should cease with this generation. Why? Because this generation will be the last with any direct tie to residential schools and that issued has been formally acknowledged and settled, as best as it could be, acknowledging that a paycheque doesn't cure emotional pain.

Education is the only way out of the bleak future that the vast majority of First Nations people currently face. The system benefits no one really and is inexorably broken and corrupt.

The best show on Canadian television right now is Blackstone. No doubt you are familiar with it. I was a consultant during it's first season and contributed to many of the characters and story-lines because of my knowledge and firsthand experience working with disenfranchised aboriginal young people, so I am not speaking without some connection and knowledge of the issues from many perspectives.

I look forward to your response.

Let me also say in advance that I appreciate your honesty and candor because no doubt a forum such as this isn't the easiest for you to present your views, but conversations such as these, even at the grassroots levels, are the seeds of ideas that eventually become policies.

I think you are patronizing to think that I've asked for any preferential treatment. If you are familiar with my posting on the forum you would know that on most native/métis issues I am quite pragmatic. I pay taxes btw same as you just more :)
Agreed economic freedom is true freedom. Free your mind and your butt will follow

Wild&Free

02-18-2014, 11:59 AM

What exactly is freedom? Are you a free man when you are forced to pay taxes? Are you free when you are required to produce papers to leave the country??

Anyone that thinks there is actually such a thing as 'freedom' is sadly misinformed, there are only different levels of permissions given depending upon where you live.

This isn't news to me.

I always found it amusing how many on here will moan about the LGR knowing full well the registration is the first step towards confiscation yet not say peep about registering their children.

sns2

02-18-2014, 12:08 PM

I think you are patronizing to think that I've asked for any preferential treatment. If you are familiar with my posting on the forum you would know that on most native/métis issues I am quite pragmatic. I pay taxes btw same as you just more :)
Agreed economic freedom is true freedom. Free your mind and your butt will follow

I don't know how I could be any more polite, and I said nothing about "asking" for preferential treatment, I said "receive preferential treatment," which if you are a card carrying First Nations or Metis, you have access to whether you use it or not. Please correct me if I am wrong.

BTW, you are likely right about paying more tax than me. Students who fail my classes can quite easily make 50% more than I do in the oilpatch in their first year. Something is wrong with that equation too, not that I am complaining because I chose my career knowing full well what the wages were. I bet I have more holidays than you:)

But, coming back to my post, are you willing to answer the question I have posed. And trust me, though I can only speak for myself, I am not looking to have any type of argument, rather, I am soliciting the opinion of someone who I have come to respect from reading your posts. Far from patronizing.

Wild&Free

02-18-2014, 12:32 PM

I will be above board and tell you that I believe for the good of all people, any and all benefits from any level of gov't for First Nations people, except educational benefits, should cease with this generation. Why? Because this generation will be the last with any direct tie to residential schools and that issued has been formally acknowledged and settled, as best as it could be, acknowledging that a paycheque doesn't cure emotional pain.

Well if you want to take away what was agreed upon in the treaties, do the natives get to take the land and all it's resources back as well?

CanuckShooter

02-18-2014, 12:36 PM

I don't know how I could be any more polite, and I said nothing about "asking" for preferential treatment, I said "receive preferential treatment," which if you are a card carrying First Nations or Metis, you have access to whether you use it or not. Please correct me if I am wrong.

BTW, you are likely right about paying more tax than me. Students who fail my classes can quite easily make 50% more than I do in the oilpatch in their first year. Something is wrong with that equation too, not that I am complaining because I chose my career knowing full well what the wages were. I bet I have more holidays than you:)

But, coming back to my post, are you willing to answer the question I have posed. And trust me, though I can only speak for myself, I am not looking to have any type of argument, rather, I am soliciting the opinion of someone who I have come to respect from reading your posts. Far from patronizing.

You are wrong...what sort of preferential treatment do you assume a person that is Metis has that you don't?

sns2

02-18-2014, 12:55 PM

Well if you want to take away what was agreed upon in the treaties, do the natives get to take the land and all it's resources back as well?

I am happy to give exactly what was written into the treaties, not what people who were not alive or present at their signing, want them to include.

Wild&Free

02-18-2014, 01:00 PM

I am happy to give exactly what was written into the treaties, not what people who were not alive or present at their signing, want them to include.

Have you read some of those treaties?

Some are fairly broad and ambiguous as to what the natives would receive.

sns2

02-18-2014, 01:04 PM

Have you read some of those treaties?

Some are fairly broad and ambiguous as to what the natives would receive.

Exactly.

Wild&Free

02-18-2014, 01:07 PM

Exactly.

So you'd give the land back then?

The ambiguity was from the side of the colonial power and not the natives. Education has taught the people how to use that to there advantage today as it was used to their disadvantage in the past.

sns2

02-18-2014, 01:15 PM

You are wrong...what sort of preferential treatment do you assume a person that is Metis has that you don't?

In hindsight, I likely shouldn't have included Metis, however we are likely both familiar with the "Daniels v. Canada" case which in 2013 resulted in Metis people being recognized as "Indian" in the context of the Constitutional Act of 1867, though the majority of the readers of this thread won't. The next few years should be interesting as the courts deal with the Gov'ts fiduciary duty arising out of this decision. As you know, should the courts ultimately rule in your favor, potentially you will receive everything that First Nations people currently receive.

Coming back to your question, as it stands today, there are a plethora of scholarships, grants, and bursaries available to Metis students in Alberta, not to mention preferential hiring programs from some of the best employers in the province.

It's all outlined here: http://www.albertametis.com/Services/Education.aspx

I would respectfully consider that as a significant benefit, as I see education as the most valuable thing we can possess. Education + Opportunity = $$$. By your lineage as Metis, your kids have access to Education and Opportunity that my children don't.

Now that I have answered your question, please feel free to answer the question I originally posed Brownbomber.

sns2

02-18-2014, 01:25 PM

So you'd give the land back then?

The ambiguity was from the side of the colonial power and not the natives. Education has taught the people how to use that to there advantage today as it was used to their disadvantage in the past.

I would give some seeds, farming implements, and the ORIGINAL monthly stipend. If there was an explicit cost of living clause I would honor that too.

CanuckShooter

02-18-2014, 01:32 PM

In hindsight, I likely shouldn't have included Metis, however we are likely both familiar with the "Daniels v. Canada" case which resulted in Metis people being recognized as "Indian" in the context of the Constitutional Act of 1867, though the majority of the readers of this thread won't. The next few years should be interesting as the courts deal with the Gov'ts fiduciary duty arising out of this decision. As you know, should the courts ultimately rule in your favor, potentially you will receive everything that First Nations people currently receive.

Coming back to your question, as it stands today, there are a plethora of scholarships, grants, and bursaries available to Metis students in Alberta, not to mention preferential hiring programs from some of the best employers in the province.

It's all outlined here: http://www.albertametis.com/Services/Education.aspx

I would respectfully consider that as a significant benefit, as I see education as the most valuable thing we can possess. Education + Opportunity = $$$. By your lineage as Metis, your kids have access to Education and Opportunity that my children don't.

Now that I have answered your question, please feel free to answer the question I originally posed Brownbomber.

The final outcomes of the Daniels case will likely not be settled by the time my grand kids are having families...that is the nature of our court system, so it's a moot point.

There are also a plethora of grants and bursaries available to a whole range of non aboriginals. Some are directed at children of specific groups and some are not. How do you see this as being a form of preferential treatment?

I don't know what your background is, but I can assure you as a person of aboriginal ancestry that the only benefit I have ever gotten in my 57 years of life is that I didn't have to pay for my PAL. And I find your broad based comments in regards to legally binding treaty and constitutional rights to be misdirected. Many people like you seem to forget who authored our Canadian Constitution....query those that wrote the document, not those that are affected by it.

Wild&Free

02-18-2014, 01:36 PM

I would give some seeds, farming implements, and the ORIGINAL monthly stipend. If there was an explicit cost of living clause I would honor that too.

Not going to go around in circles with you anymore. First you say you want to break the treaties and contracts signed by our government and now you're saying you only want to honour the original uncontested treaties signed by people who couldn't read or speak the language it was written in following a custom and tradition completely alien to them. Got ya loud and clear.

Mr. Riel had some questionable behaviour but he also had different interests in mind then the Hudson Bay company and administrators of the N.W.T. The craziest people have had some profound effects on the world today, from Alexander the Great and Genghis Kahn to Napoleon and what's his name who shot up ecole poly technique. Some for good others not so much.

sns2

02-18-2014, 01:37 PM

The final outcomes of the Daniels case will likely not be settled by the time my grand kids are having families...that is the nature of our court system, so it's a moot point.

There are also a plethora of grants and bursaries available to a whole range of non aboriginals. Some are directed at children of specific groups and some are not. How do you see this as being a form of preferential treatment?

I don't know what your background is, but I can assure you as a person of aboriginal ancestry that the only benefit I have ever gotten in my 57 years of life is that I didn't have to pay for my PAL. And I find your broad based comments in regards to legally binding treaty and constitutional rights to be misdirected. Many people like you seem to forget who authored our Canadian Constitution....query those that wrote the document, not those that are affected by it.

Preferential treatment is quite simple. Something that you can get that I cannot. In this case based on lineage. Really quite simple.

I also detailed my lineage in an earlier post.

I am not being demeaning. I have no reason to be. I am very clear that I think the current system is irreparably broken.

Again, feel free to answer the question I posed Brownbomber rather than deflect or ask me a question.

Lefty-Canuck

02-18-2014, 01:41 PM

Preferential treatment is quite simple. Something that you can get that I cannot. In this case based on lineage. Really quite simple.

I also detailed my lineage in an earlier post.

I am not being demeaning. I have no reason to be. I am very clear that I think the current system is irreparably broken.

Again, feel free to answer the question I posed Brownbomber rather than deflect or ask me a question.

Well said....

LC

brownbomber

02-18-2014, 01:44 PM

I don't know how I could be any more polite, and I said nothing about "asking" for preferential treatment, I said "receive preferential treatment," which if you are a card carrying First Nations or Metis, you have access to whether you use it or not. Please correct me if I am wrong.

BTW, you are likely right about paying more tax than me. Students who fail my classes can quite easily make 50% more than I do in the oilpatch in their first year. Something is wrong with that equation too, not that I am complaining because I chose my career knowing full well what the wages were. I bet I have more holidays than you:)

But, coming back to my post, are you willing to answer the question I have posed. And trust me, though I can only speak for myself, I am not looking to have any type of argument, rather, I am soliciting the opinion of someone who I have come to respect from reading your posts. Far from patronizing.

Umm I'm just being quick because I'm kinda busy. No I went to uni so I'm not a high school dropout, about a year from my engineering degree 16 years ago so not uneducated so to speak. I think a BEd gets what it's worth, my mother having been a teacher 30 years. I work 9/5 so about the same holidays.

CanuckShooter

02-18-2014, 01:47 PM

Brownbomber,

My ethnic heritage is Ukrainian. My ancestors, who came to this country at the request of the Government of Canada, worked tirelessly to settle central Alberta, and have been recognized for their efforts at the Ukrainian Cultural Village east of Edmonton. My relatives were interned in work camps, had whatever wealth they had confiscated, were declared "enemy aliens" by the same gov't that invited them here and benefitted from their efforts, were treated brutally as they were forced to help build Banff National Park, and were kept for a couple of years even after WWI had ended. My people never received any compensation for this, nor would they have, had they asked. They died. I never met them. All I receive from the Federal gov't is a tax bill.

Wrongs in the past have happened to your people by the gov't too.

Please tell me why you should receive preferential treatment over me?

I will be above board and tell you that I believe for the good of all people, any and all benefits from any level of gov't for First Nations people, except educational benefits, should cease with this generation. Why? Because this generation will be the last with any direct tie to residential schools and that issued has been formally acknowledged and settled, as best as it could be, acknowledging that a paycheque doesn't cure emotional pain.

Education is the only way out of the bleak future that the vast majority of First Nations people currently face. The system benefits no one really and is inexorably broken and corrupt.

The best show on Canadian television right now is Blackstone. No doubt you are familiar with it. I was a consultant during it's first season and contributed to many of the characters and story-lines because of my knowledge and firsthand experience working with disenfranchised aboriginal young people, so I am not speaking without some connection and knowledge of the issues from many perspectives.

I look forward to your response.

Let me also say in advance that I appreciate your honesty and candor because no doubt a forum such as this isn't the easiest for you to present your views, but conversations such as these, even at the grassroots levels, are the seeds of ideas that eventually become policies.

I'll try and answer your question.....;-)

Because a bunch of white people [for the most part] wrote a legal document called the Canadian Constitution [1982] and within that document they identified Canada's aboriginal peoples, and they also acknowledged some of their legal and fiduciary responsibilities towards Canada's aboriginals. Then they all voted on it, and it became the law of the land. I was of age then and really I don't remember getting a vote?

So the answer to your question is: aboriginals should get preferential treatment over individuals like yourself because it's the [white mans] law.

IF this puts you off, or makes you angry, or you feel down trodden because you don't get to live in a free shanty on a reserve...then take it up with the people that wrote the constitution and not the people like myself that fall under it. :)

nof60

02-18-2014, 01:53 PM

Wild&Free

02-18-2014, 02:17 PM

That was a very good answer.

SNS BB W&F and you are all making great points on this very interesting thread. Lets keep the punches above the belt. And to all the others like myself who do not have a good filter between their brain and their keyboard lets stay out of this one and we may all learn a thing or 2.

Mind to keyboard filter is helped with the backspace key, I've screamed obscenities at the screen many times in the past, though not on this thread.

I think Canuck shooter has made the most valid point so far.

sns2

02-18-2014, 02:21 PM

I'll try and answer your question.....;-)

Because a bunch of white people [for the most part] wrote a legal document called the Canadian Constitution [1982] and within that document they identified Canada's aboriginal peoples, and they also acknowledged some of their legal and fiduciary responsibilities towards Canada's aboriginals. Then they all voted on it, and it became the law of the land. I was of age then and really I don't remember getting a vote?

So the answer to your question is: aboriginals should get preferential treatment over individuals like yourself because it's the [white mans] law.

IF this puts you off, or makes you angry, or you feel down trodden because you don't get to live in a free shanty on a reserve...then take it up with the people that wrote the constitution and not the people like myself that fall under it. :)

Because someone else said so is not the reasoned answer I was hoping for.

As for what you have offered as an answer, it presumes that gov'ts actions are always right and reasonable, and that the majority of Canadians agree with the actions of their gov't. A colossal and mistaken presumption.

As for the Constitution of 1982, Trudeau did much I disagree with. If I were king for a day and had only one act in power it would be to burn the paper it is written on. In fact, if I were to be as simplistic as most of the answers to the straightforward question I have posed elicit, I would blame Trudeau for much of the plight we currently suffer as a country. His approach of multiculturalism has irreparably fractured any sense of unity this country should possess. Instead we define ourselves by saying to be Canadian means we are not American, that we drink poor coffee from a donut shop, and we pander to special interest groups that never stop springing out of the weeds, asking, if not expecting, the taxpayer to fund their cause and enshrine it into law.

I shudder at the thought of his offspring taking power in this country.

Wild&Free

02-18-2014, 02:27 PM

Because someone else said so is not the reasoned answer I was hoping for.

As for the Constitution of 1982, Trudeau did much I disagree with. If I were king for a day and had only one act in power it would be to burn the paper it is written on. In fact, if I were to be as simplistic as most of the answers to the straightforward question I have posed elicit, I would blame Trudeau for much of the plight we currently suffer as a country. His approach of multiculturalism has irreparably fractured any sense of unity this country should possess. Instead we define ourselves by saying to be Canadian means we are not American, and pander to special interest groups that never stop springing out of the weeds.

Not someone else, the democratically elected government. Even if you didn't vote for him, participating in democracy requires you to accept the will of the people.

For all those opposed to the actions of Trudeau senior should organize, form a political party and run in the next election against his son on the platform of destroying the constitution and reversing ~30 year old legislation. I wish you luck.

sns2

02-18-2014, 02:32 PM

Not someone else, the democratically elected government. Even if you didn't vote for him, participating in democracy requires you to accept the will of the people.

For all those opposed to the actions of Trudeau senior should organize, form a political party and run in the next election against his son on the platform of destroying the constitution and reversing ~30 year old legislation. I wish you luck.

Accepting the actions of a democratically elected gov't does not mean I have to like it, agree with it, approve of it, or advocate in favour of it.

With your reasoning, I should have sent Trudeau a Christmas card and thanked him for the N.E.P.

Please don't be so simplistic, and feel free to answer the question I posed that no one seems to want to offer their own thoughts on. Also have the intellectual honesty to state your lineage as I, Brownbomber, and Canuckshooter have.

I'd love a good, respectful discussion. Something tells me I am not going to get one.

Kurt505

02-18-2014, 02:44 PM

Accepting the actions of a democratically elected gov't does not mean I have to like it, agree with it, approve of it, or advocate in favour of it.

With your reasoning, I should have sent Trudeau a Christmas card and thanked him for the N.E.P.

Please don't be so simplistic, and feel free to answer the question I posed that no one seems to want to offer their own thoughts on. Also have the intellectual honesty to state your lineage as I, Brownbomber, and Canuckshooter have.

I'd love a good, respectful discussion. Something tells me I am not going to get one.

Something tells me you're right. The keyboard can create a mighty shield.

nof60

02-18-2014, 02:47 PM

Not someone else, the democratically elected government. Even if you didn't vote for him, participating in democracy requires you to accept the will of the people.

Is that what Louis Riel did? He got elected while in hiding, dressed as a woman and started a revolution against the actions of the democratically elected government.

Bazinga!!!!!

Wild&Free

02-18-2014, 02:49 PM

Accepting the actions of a democratically elected gov't does not mean I have to like it, approve of it, or advocate for it,

With your reasoning, I should have sent Trudeau a Christmas card and thanked him for the N.E.P.

Please don't be so simplistic, and feel free to answer the question I posed that no one seems to want to offer their own thoughts on. Also have the intellectual honesty to state your lineage as I, Brownbomber, and Canuckshooter have.

I'd love a good, respectful discussion. Something tells me I am not going to get one.

My lineage? Well fathers family immigrated here under a false name to escape the Campbell revolution around 1750, not sure of the specific lineage after that. Family tree shows marriage to a variety of Western European cultural groups though is predominately from the British isles and Ireland. Mothers family immigrated from Briton 7 generations ago to ohio and branched out with marriages to natives, French, Acadian, Dutch, german, Polish and a few others from Central and Eastern Europe. Like I said in a previous thread, I'm a mutt.

So I hope that sheds light that I'm not biased to one culture or another since I'm apart of so many.

Also, my reasoning doesn't say you need to be thankful to Trudeau only that if you want democracy that means accepting that you the individual is a minority and the will of the group trumps your interests in both the past and in the future. Many governments will implement policy that extends beyond their term and new governments only occasionally go back on them despite opposing the implementation while not in power. Over simplified?

Your question has been answered, don't like the answer keep fishing someone will eventually say what you need them to say so you can further your own position.

To suggest I have not been respectful is narrow mindedness in my opinion. We're not he one fishing for the "right answer"

sns2

02-18-2014, 03:09 PM

My lineage? Well fathers family immigrated here under a false name to escape the Campbell revolution around 1750, not sure of the specific lineage after that. Family tree shows marriage to a variety of Western European cultural groups though is predominately from the British isles and Ireland. Mothers family immigrated from Briton 7 generations ago to ohio and branched out with marriages to natives, French, Acadian, Dutch, german, Polish and a few others from Central and Eastern Europe. Like I said in a previous thread, I'm a mutt.

So I hope that sheds light that I'm not biased to one culture or another since I'm apart of so many.

Also, my reasoning doesn't say you need to be thankful to Trudeau only that if you want democracy that means accepting that you the individual is a minority and the will of the group trumps your interests in both the past and in the future. Many governments will implement policy that extends beyond their term and new governments only occasionally go back on them despite opposing the implementation while not in power. Over simplified?

Your question has been answered, don't like the answer keep fishing someone will eventually say what you need them to say so you can further your own position.

To suggest I have not been respectful is narrow mindedness in my opinion. We're not he one fishing for the "right answer"

If because some white dudes made a decision is the best you can do as answer, then as I figured, this discussion is going nowhere.

From your post my guess is that you are in favour of continuing the policies that currently exist. Would you be willing to humour some of the readers on both sides of this issue as to why you think things are currently working or will in the future?

CNP

02-18-2014, 03:27 PM

If I was Metis I might celebrate it. I'm not. The time period is close but I wasn't there to corroborate any of it. Dang revisionists....I can't believe anything put into print these days so I don't even offer an opinion.

Wild&Free

02-18-2014, 03:30 PM

If because some white dudes made a decision is the best you can do as answer, then as I figured, this discussion is going nowhere.

From your post my guess is that you are in favour of continuing the policies that currently exist. Would you be willing to humour some of the readers on both sides of this issue as to why you think things are currently working or will in the future?

First, it's not some white dudes decision, it's the democratic government hence the entire nation that says so. Casting a vote binds you to the outcome whether you voted for the winner or loser. If you oppose it, campaign against it.

Secondly, you're drawing conclusions that have no basis from anything I have said. I have only commented on the why and how the system is as it is. Do I personally agree that the assimilation policies that have been in place for so long have been successful and should be maintained? No, they have been a complete failure. A failure I attribute to not honouring the treaties as they were written. Things like the clause in some treaties that state native children should learn the ways of the white and white kids should learn the ways of the natives. Not to mention the fact that the colonial powers signed the treaties in bad faith to begin with. Do I think the solution is to continue to not honour or even go so far as break them? No, many times NO. We are only as good as our word and to continue on the path we have been on is shameful in my eyes.

You referred to your heritage and the plight of your people(and mine) upon arrival to this nation yet that was the choice your ancestors made to better themselves. Native Americans choose to enter into treaties and honoured them to share the land and live in peace with new neighbours they never asked for. So who is, or has been in the wrong though out our history?

sns2

02-18-2014, 03:39 PM

First, it's not some white dudes decision, it's the democratic government hence the entire nation that says so. Casting a vote binds you to the outcome whether you voted for the winner or loser. If you oppose it, campaign against it.

Secondly, you're drawing conclusions that have no basis from anything I have said. I have only commented on the why and how the system is as it is. Do I personally agree that the assimilation policies that have been in place for so long have been successful and should be maintained? No, they have been a complete failure. A failure I attribute to not honouring the treaties as they were written. Things like the clause in some treaties that state native children should learn the ways of the white and white kids should learn the ways of the natives. Not to mention the fact that the colonial powers signed the treaties in bad faith to begin with. Do I think the solution is to continue to not honour or even go so far as break them? No, many times NO. We are only as good as our word and to continue on the path we have been on is shameful in my eyes.

You referred to your heritage and the plight of your people(and mine) upon arrival to this nation yet that was the choice your ancestors made to better themselves. Native Americans choose to enter into treaties and honoured them to share the land and live in peace with new neighbours they never asked for. So who is, or has been in the wrong though out our history?

My relatives chose to have their property taken, be declared as enemy aliens, and be placed in work camps?

The above, coupled with your continued assertion that the govt's decisions reflect my will, or even that of the majority of Canadians has lost me on so many levels that I'm not gonna take the time to respond.

Don't gloat as if you proved a point, it's just that you aren't aboriginal, and are therefore not a part of the group to which I posed my question, hence you are unable to provide an answer.

Wild&Free

02-18-2014, 03:46 PM

My relatives chose to have their property taken, be declared as enemy aliens, and be placed in work camps?

The above, coupled with your continued assertion that the govt's decisions reflect my will, or even that of the majority of Canadians has lost me on so many levels that I'm not gonna take the time to respond.

Don't gloat as if you proved a point, it's just that you aren't aboriginal, and are therefore not a part of the group to which I posed my question, hence you are unable to provide an answer.

The decisions might not reflect your will, but participation in the system means you tacitly agree to abide by them.

I have more aboriginal blood then I do any other single European group. Not enough to qualify for status but it's there. You can dismiss me all you want but you have not dismissed or successfully countered a single point I have made. You can draw your own conclusions from that.

bb356

02-18-2014, 04:29 PM

Happy Loius Riel day to all the wonderful Metis people of canada. Today is a day to celebrate a true Canadian Hero! The last politician to have a pair, and stood up for what was right!

:sHa_shakeshout:

Mb-MBR

02-18-2014, 04:51 PM

:sHa_shakeshout:

Don't forget the 7 Indians that were hung with Riel and the others that were incarcerated for trying to keep the damn federales in the east:sSig_welcome2:

brownbomber

02-18-2014, 06:27 PM

sns2

02-18-2014, 06:33 PM

The decisions might not reflect your will, but participation in the system means you tacitly agree to abide by them.

I have more aboriginal blood then I do any other single European group. Not enough to qualify for status but it's there. You can dismiss me all you want but you have not dismissed or successfully countered a single point I have made. You can draw your own conclusions from that.

This is my last post to you, but I hope you're bright enough to realize that the only day one has anything resembling any true say is on election day. The rest of the time the direction of this country, when in a majority gov't, comes directly from the PMO. If you can't acknowledge that you are beyond hope.

You still haven't answered the question other than to agree that the reason First Nations get the benefits they do is because white dudes said they did.

You may think you've made a point, but by your lack of any original or personal thought, you show you have no answer. Not that there is any answer other than to admit that the whole damn system is irreparably broken, in every single way, and that you could throw twice the money at it and things would still be the same. Broken is broken. Finally, don't say that things can't change because they are enshrined in a treaty or a constitution. One day not that long ago people would never have dreamt that men would be able to marry men, and women marry women. Things change. This is one issue where radical change is clearly needed.

Wild&Free

02-18-2014, 06:49 PM

This is my last post to you, but I hope you're bright enough to realize that the only day one has anything resembling any true say is on election day. The rest of the time the direction of this country, when in a majority gov't, comes directly from the PMO. If you can't acknowledge that you are beyond hope.

You still haven't answered the question other than to agree with the First Nations get the benefits they do is because white dudes said they did.

You may think you've made a point, but by your lack of any original or personal thought, you show you have no answer. Not that there is any answer other than to admit that the whole damn system is irreparably broken, in every single way, and that you could throw twice the money at it and things would still be the same.

First you say you want to remove everything but educational support from treatied native groups, basically breaking contract. When asked if you would give back the land upon breaking treaty you never respond.

You then refuse to acknowledge the most basic principal of democracy which is submitting to the will of the majority.

You then carry on to say you only want to honour the original wording of the treaties providing seed and farm implements and a stipend. Multi million dollar endeavour with modern farm equipment and inflation. Also a reversal from your original position.

I don't care if I prove a point, I maintained my position instead of flip flopping around fishing for what I want to hear. You also never offered any other position or suggestion on progressive change to improve the system. I even offered for you to campaign against current policy which you ignored. Your political clout extends to complaints and apathy.

I hope your young one gets better. Sick kids are no fun.

Burglecut83

02-18-2014, 06:53 PM

Happy Louis riel day everyone

fish gunner

02-18-2014, 06:55 PM

Lets just say we owe the natives the vast herds of bison that darkend the prairies in the multi millions. Whats bison worth a pound nowadays.
So yes we will be paying till we ether leave or replace the bison . Sounds fair .

pickrel pat

02-18-2014, 07:39 PM

sns2

02-18-2014, 07:40 PM

I've got a few minutes now.
It's difficult to sum up how I feel in a few paragraphs. But I will do my best. Here goes.
I don't believe in a lot of the rights given to FN or métis people because it treats us like children. It's saying that we can't make it without somebody's help which is gaff from true. But saying that you can't change things abruptly.
Yes especially the $$ that goes to FN does see a lot of waste, it's a rapidly increasing population segment that will only increase.
That said most of the stereotypical issues come from the system being designed to be a failure. And it plays into the victim mentality that many have gotten from generations of being in the system. So it's a vicious cycle. What the solution is I could not tell you because it's more complicated than most people think.
The problem people will continue to be so, and people like me that can make a difference don't because I'm busy working and being normal making payments and I don't have time for that crap.
That said given what you would consider a level playing field would thibgs remain level? Or would the old school mentality of oh they are just Indians never mind them or we won't hire him his last name is Buffalo. That's the real rub if the changes you want happen, economically people need the oppurtunuties.

A lot of the stereotype out there are exactly that and misconceptions about what I'm all about or what people really want.

Equality is equality but given the chance the lowest common denominator often comes into play. These things were put here for a reason. Not to say living in the past is right. It's hard to rise above some things. But on the other hand obstacle is another word for excuse.

As you can see it's one big contrary problem. Given a couple hours could likely be a lot more clear on how I feel. :)

Brownbomber, you were very clear and honest. Thank you. There are no simple answers. No solutions that will come close to gaining consensus. I just know it's broken. Very, broken. The world we live in does not resemble the world which existed when the treaties were signed, so to think an agreement that didn't work then, will work now, doesn't make sense.

The gov't knows it doesn't work. First Nations people like yourself know it doesn't work. But when there are huge dollars involved for law firms, the lawyers will be able to convince bands to fight. The path you have taken is the only way. People like you are the only way.

My solution is admittedly simplistic, but the framework would be like this:

1) Reserve system abolished
2) Free post-secondary education for two generations
3) Free housing, medical, dental, and prescription drugs while in post-secondary.
4) Gov't guaranteed jobs upon graduation
5) For families being forced off the reserve they would receive a modest house in lieu of stipends and housing they now recieve. All families would have the chance at home ownership.
6) For those with addictions or mental health issues, free residential rehab programs.

Mb-MBR

02-18-2014, 07:53 PM

Brownbomber, you were very clear and honest. Thank you. There are no simple answers. No solutions that will come close to gaining consensus. I just know it's broken. Very, broken. The world we live in does not resemble the world which existed when the treaties were signed, so to think an agreement that didn't work then, will work now, doesn't make sense.

The gov't knows it doesn't work. First Nations people like yourself know it doesn't work. But when there are huge dollars involved for law firms, the lawyers will be able to convince bands to fight. The path you have taken is the only way. People like you are the only way.

My solution is admittedly simplistic, but the framework would be like this:

1) Reserve system abolished
2) Free post-secondary education for two generations
3) Free housing, medical, dental, and prescription drugs while in post-secondary.
4) Gov't guaranteed jobs upon graduation
5) For families being forced off the reserve they would receive a modest house in lieu of stipends and housing they now recieve. All families would have the chance at home ownership.
6) For those with addictions or mental health issues, free residential rehab programs.

Interesting.....:thinking-017:

Lefty-Canuck

02-18-2014, 07:58 PM

I think many would support a satisfactory "once and for all" solution.

LC

roper1

02-18-2014, 08:10 PM

I've got a few minutes now.
It's difficult to sum up how I feel in a few paragraphs. But I will do my best. Here goes.
I don't believe in a lot of the rights given to FN or métis people because it treats us like children. It's saying that we can't make it without somebody's help which is gaff from true. But saying that you can't change things abruptly.
Yes especially the $$ that goes to FN does see a lot of waste, it's a rapidly increasing population segment that will only increase.
That said most of the stereotypical issues come from the system being designed to be a failure. And it plays into the victim mentality that many have gotten from generations of being in the system. So it's a vicious cycle. What the solution is I could not tell you because it's more complicated than most people think.
The problem people will continue to be so, and people like me that can make a difference don't because I'm busy working and being normal making payments and I don't have time for that crap.
That said given what you would consider a level playing field would thibgs remain level? Or would the old school mentality of oh they are just Indians never mind them or we won't hire him his last name is Buffalo. That's the real rub if the changes you want happen, economically people need the oppurtunuties.

A lot of the stereotype out there are exactly that and misconceptions about what I'm all about or what people really want.

Equality is equality but given the chance the lowest common denominator often comes into play. These things were put here for a reason. Not to say living in the past is right. It's hard to rise above some things. But on the other hand obstacle is another word for excuse.

As you can see it's one big contrary problem. Given a couple hours could likely be a lot more clear on how I feel. :)

Very, very well spoken. It is easy to admire someone's writing style when you happen to agree with their position as I have lived beside and hired many FN employees. A few were very good but most have never really gotten in sync with modern industry. I went to school with them and fought with and against them. A couple are very good friends to this day. I also see some logic in sns2's position because the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over & over again but expecting different results. Even Trudeau's 1982 Constitution is over 30 years old and has been the subject of scrutiny on other issues. The U.S. have something like 20-30 amendments to their Constitution. This has happened because Society grows & changes and Gov't & laws need to change to help citizens keep up & maintain & enhance their living standards. Nice to see a thread on this subject stay civil & some people actually looking for a solution. My .02

fish gunner

02-18-2014, 08:17 PM

speak for yourself. I have never killed a bison.

No one alive has killed a free roaming plains bison in the true scence . Then a gain the yanks second amendment was not intended for modern weapons dont see them changing that and it cost lives. Honor the contract or pack yo bags easy fix from my pov.

Mb-MBR

02-18-2014, 08:25 PM

speak for yourself. I have never killed a bison.

That's cuz' your ancestors got greedy and killed them all!!!:shake::waiting4::D

pickrel pat

02-18-2014, 08:28 PM

That's cuz' your ancestors got greedy and killed them all!!!:shake::waiting4::D

im an indian.:thinking-006::sign0161:

pickrel pat

02-18-2014, 08:29 PM

im an indian.:thinking-006::sign0161:

and so are my kids.

fish gunner

02-18-2014, 08:36 PM

and so are my kids.

And im native to ..... just not to this island. :)

Mb-MBR

02-18-2014, 08:38 PM

im an indian.:thinking-006::sign0161:

So am I................:sHa_shakeshout: Sorry I just dribbled all over my key board...........I wasted a good one on a brother, damn it, sorry about that!!!:sLo_BigBearHug:

Burglecut83

02-18-2014, 09:23 PM

He was a weird guy

Jims71duster

02-18-2014, 09:35 PM

Brownbomber,

My ethnic heritage is Ukrainian. My ancestors, who came to this country at the request of the Government of Canada, worked tirelessly to settle central Alberta, and have been recognized for their efforts at the Ukrainian Cultural Village east of Edmonton. My relatives were interned in work camps, had whatever wealth they had confiscated, were declared "enemy aliens" by the same gov't that invited them here and benefitted from their efforts, were treated brutally as they were forced to help build Banff National Park, and were kept for a couple of years even after WWI had ended. My people never received any compensation for this, nor would they have, had they asked. They died. I never met them. All I receive from the Federal gov't is a tax bill.

Wrongs in the past have happened to your people by the gov't too.

Please tell me why you should receive preferential treatment over me?

I will be above board and tell you that I believe for the good of all people, any and all benefits from any level of gov't for First Nations people, except educational benefits, should cease with this generation. Why? Because this generation will be the last with any direct tie to residential schools and that issued has been formally acknowledged and settled, as best as it could be, acknowledging that a paycheque doesn't cure emotional pain.

Education is the only way out of the bleak future that the vast majority of First Nations people currently face. The system benefits no one really and is inexorably broken and corrupt.

The best show on Canadian television right now is Blackstone. No doubt you are familiar with it. I was a consultant during it's first season and contributed to many of the characters and story-lines because of my knowledge and firsthand experience working with disenfranchised aboriginal young people, so I am not speaking without some connection and knowledge of the issues from many perspectives.

I look forward to your response.

Let me also say in advance that I appreciate your honesty and candor because no doubt a forum such as this isn't the easiest for you to present your views, but conversations such as these, even at the grassroots levels, are the seeds of ideas that eventually become policies.

Here's a response for ya,, someone said happy Louis Riel day to start the thread and a lot of people like you thought it was a discussion instead of a statement. If someone said happy Chinese New Year or happy barmitsfa ( spelling) would all you people still yap off, I think not. Happy Louis Riel day to those who honour it and for those that don't, show some respect and go to the next thread. Sorry for ranting and using your quote as it's not just you but ,man, can't people just be descent, just because it's métis everyone lines up for a cheap shot, I still have a hard time believing it's allowed here because every time there is a métis topic it gets locked down but not until the culture of this site is demoralized a bit more each time it happens. This thread was not in anyway headed where it was taken, all it said was happy Louis Riel day. What a sad bunch to take away what's not yours to take and I'm not talking about hunting rights here only what the thread was meant to be.

sns2

02-18-2014, 10:14 PM

Here's a response for ya,, someone said happy Louis Riel day to start the thread and a lot of people like you thought it was a discussion instead of a statement. If someone said happy Chinese New Year or happy barmitsfa ( spelling) would all you people still yap off, I think not. Happy Louis Riel day to those who honour it and for those that don't, show some respect and go to the next thread. Sorry for ranting and using your quote as it's not just you but ,man, can't people just be descent, just because it's métis everyone lines up for a cheap shot, I still have a hard time believing it's allowed here because every time there is a métis topic it gets locked down but not until the culture of this site is demoralized a bit more each time it happens. This thread was not in anyway headed where it was taken, all it said was happy Louis Riel day. What a sad bunch to take away what's not yours to take and I'm not talking about hunting rights here only what the thread was meant to be.

To be brutally honest with you, I thought it was a joke. Guess it's got a long way to go before being widely recognized as some sort of holiday. Relax. It's not above me to be a dink, but I do know when I am doing so. This wasn't one of those times.