Science behind sexuality

[Sundancefisher]

Diversity and respectful attitudes can be difficult to culture in people with preconceived notions.

Science can help explain it. This was well written. Points to homosexuality as not being a choice.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26089486

The evolutionary puzzle of homosexualityBy William Kremer

BBC World Service

In the last two decades, dozens of scientific papers have been published on the biological origins of homosexuality - another announcement was made last week. It's becoming scientific orthodoxy. But how does it fit with Darwin's theory of evolution?

Macklemore and Ryan Lewis's hit song Same Love, which has become an unofficial anthem of the pro-gay marriage campaign in the US, reflects how many gay people feel about their sexuality.

It mocks those who "think it's a decision, and you can be cured with some treatment and religion - man-made rewiring of a predisposition". A minority of gay people disagree, maintaining that sexuality is a social construct, and they have made a conscious, proud choice to take same-sex partners.

But scientific opinion is with Macklemore. Since the early 1990s, researchers have shown that homosexuality is more common in brothers and relatives on the same maternal line, and a genetic factor is taken to be the cause. Also relevant - although in no way proof - is research identifying physical differences in the brains of adult straight and gay people, and a dizzying array of homosexual behaviour in animals.

But since gay and lesbian people have fewer children than straight people, a problem arises.

"This is a paradox from an evolutionary perspective," says Paul Vasey from the University of Lethbridge in Canada. "How can a trait like male homosexuality, which has a genetic component, persist over evolutionary time if the individuals that carry the genes associated with that trait are not reproducing?"

Scientists don't know the answer to this Darwinian puzzle, but there are several theories. It's possible that different mechanisms may be at work in different people. Most of the theories relate to research on male homosexuality. The evolution of lesbianism is relatively understudied - it may work in a similar way or be completely different.


The genes that code for homosexuality do other things too

The allele - or group of genes - that sometimes codes for homosexual orientation may at other times have a strong reproductive benefit. This would compensate for gay people's lack of reproduction and ensure the continuation of the trait, as non-gay carriers of the gene pass it down.

There are two or more ways this might happen. One possibility is that the allele confers a psychological trait that makes straight men more attractive to women, or straight women more attractive to men. "We know that women tend to like more feminine behavioural features and facial features in their men, and that might be associated with things like good parenting skills or greater empathy," says Qazi Rahman, co-author of Born Gay; The Psychobiology of Sex Orientation. Therefore, the theory goes, a low "dose" of these alleles enhances the carrier's chances of reproductive success. Every now and then a family member receives a larger dose that affects his or her sexual orientation, but the allele still has an overall reproductive advantage.

Another way a "gay allele" might be able to compensate for a reproductive deficit is by having the converse effect in the opposite sex. For example, an allele which makes the bearer attracted to men has an obvious reproductive advantage to women. If it appears in a man's genetic code it will code for same-sex attraction, but so long as this happens rarely the allele still has a net evolutionary benefit.

There is some evidence for this second theory. Andrea Camperio-Ciani, at the University of Padova in Italy, found that maternal female relatives of gay men have more children than maternal female relatives of straight men. The implication is that there is an unknown mechanism in the X chromosome of men's genetic code which helps women in the family have more babies, but can lead to homosexuality in men. These results haven't been replicated in some ethnic groups - but that doesn't mean they are wrong with regards to the Italian population in Camperio-Ciani's study.


Gay people were 'helpers in the nest'


The fa'afafine of Samoa dislike being called "gay" or "homosexual"
Some researchers believe that to understand the evolution of gay people, we need to look at how they fit into the wider culture.

Paul Vasey's research in Samoa has focused on a theory called kin selection or the "helper in the nest" hypothesis. The idea is that gay people compensate for their lack of children by promoting the reproductive fitness of brothers or sisters, contributing money or performing other uncle-like activities such as babysitting or tutoring. Some of the gay person's genetic code is shared with nieces and nephews and so, the theory goes, the genes which code for sexual orientation still get passed down.

Sceptics have pointed out that since on average people share just 25% of their genetic code with these relatives, they would need to compensate for every child they don't have themselves with two nieces or nephews that wouldn't otherwise have existed. Vasey hasn't yet measured just how much having a homosexual orientation boosts siblings' reproduction rate, but he has established that in Samoa "gay" men spend more time on uncle-like activities than "straight" men.

"No-one was more surprised than me," says Vasey about his findings. His lab had previously shown that gay men in Japan were no more attentive or generous towards their nieces and nephews than straight, childless men and women. The same result has been found in the UK, US and Canada.

Vasey believes that his Samoan result was different because the men he studied there were different. He studied the fa'afafine, who identify as a third gender, dressing as women and having sex with men who regard themselves as "straight". They are a transgender group who do not like to be called "gay" or "homosexual".

Vasey speculates that part of the reason the fa'afafine are more attentive to their nephews and nieces is their acceptance in Samoan culture compared to gay men in the West and Japan ("You can't help your kin if they've rejected you"). But he also believes that there is something about the fa'afafine way of life that means they are more likely to be nurturing towards nieces and nephews, and speculates that he would find similar results in other "third gender" groups around the world.

If this is true, then the helper in the nest theory may partly explain how a genetic trait for same-sex attraction hasn't been selected away. That hypothesis has led Vasey to speculate that the gay men who identify as men and have masculine traits - that is to say, most gay men in the West - are descended from men who had a cross-gendered sexuality.

In the US, around 37% of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transsexual people have a child, about 60% of which are biological. According to the Williams Institute, gay couples that have children have an average of two.

These figures may not be high enough to sustain genetic traits specific to this group, but the evolutionary biologist Jeremy Yoder points out in a blog post that for much of modern history gay people haven't been living openly gay lives. Compelled by society to enter marriages and have children, their reproduction rates may have been higher than they are now.

How many gay people have children also depends on how you define being "gay". Many of the "straight" men who have sex with fa'afafine in Samoa go on to get married and have children.

"The category of same-sex sexuality becomes very diffuse when you take a multicultural perspective," says Joan Roughgarden, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Hawaii. "If you go to India, you'll find that if someone says they are 'gay' or 'homosexual' then that immediately identifies them as Western. But that doesn't mean there's no homosexuality there."

Similarly in the West, there is evidence that many people go through a phase of homosexual activity. In the 1940s, US sex researcher Alfred Kinsey found that while just 4% of white men were exclusively gay after adolescence, 10% had a three-year period of gay activity and 37% had gay sex at some point in their lives.

A national survey of sexual attitudes in the UK last year came up with lower figures. Some 16% of women said they had had a sexual experience with another woman (8% had genital contact), and 7% of men said they had had a sexual experience with a man (with 5% having genital contact).

But most scientists researching gay evolution are interested in an ongoing, internal pattern of desire rather than whether people identify as gay or straight or how often people have gay sex. "Sexual identity and sexual behaviours are not good measures of sexual orientation," says Paul Vasey. "Sexual feelings are."


It's not all in the DNA

Qazi Rahman says that alleles coding for same sex attraction only explain some of the variety in human sexuality. Other, naturally varying biological factors come into play, with about one in seven gay men, he says, owing their sexuality to the "big brother effect".

This has nothing to do with George Orwell, but describes the observation that boys with older brothers are significantly more likely to become gay - with every older brother the chance of homosexuality increases by about a third. No-one knows why this is, but one theory is that with each male pregnancy, a woman's body forms an immune reaction to proteins that have a role in the development of the male brain. Since this only comes into play after several siblings have been born - most of whom are heterosexual and go on to have children - this pre-natal quirk hasn't been selected away by evolution.

Exposure to unusual levels of hormone before birth can also affect sexuality. For example, female foetuses exposed to higher levels of testosterone before birth show higher rates of lesbianism later on. Studies show that "butch" lesbian women and men have a smaller difference in length between their index and ring fingers - a marker of pre-natal exposure to testosterone. In "femme" lesbians the difference has been found to be less marked.

Brothers of a different kind - identical twins - also pose a tricky question. Research has found that if an identical twin is gay, there is about a 20% chance that the sibling will have the same sexual orientation. While that's a greater likelihood than random, it's lower than you might expect for two people with the same genetic code.

William Rice, from the University of California Santa Barbara, says that it may be possible to explain this by looking not at our genetic code but at the way it is processed. Rice and his colleagues refer to the emerging field of epigenetics, which studies the "epimarks" that decide which parts of our DNA get switched on or off. Epimarks get passed on to children, but only sometimes. Rice believes that female foetuses employ an epimark that makes them less sensitive to testosterone. Usually it's not inherited, but occasionally it is, leading to same-sex preference in boys.

Dr William Byne, editor-in-chief of the journal LGBT Health, believes sexuality may well be inborn, but thinks it could be more complicated than some scientists believe. He notes that the heritability of homosexuality is similar to that for divorce, but "social science researchers have not… searched for 'divorce genes'. Instead they have focused on heritable personality and temperamental traits that might influence the likelihood of divorce."

For Qazi Rahman, it's the media that oversimplifies genetic theories of sexuality, with their reports of the discovery of "the gay gene". He believes that sexuality involves tens or perhaps hundreds of alleles that will probably take decades to uncover. And even if heterosexual sex is more advantageous in evolutionary terms than gay sex, it's not only gay people whose sexuality is determined by their genes, he says, but straight people too.

[rwm1273]

When you see the typical gay man with very feminine actions, imo that is not a learned behavior, it is genetic.

But for some people who swing both ways, I think it is partly choice. Perhaps it is deeper than that, but imo I think they just are over sexual, and not necessarily gay.

[Sundancefisher]

When you see the typical gay man with very feminine actions, imo that is not a learned behavior, it is genetic.

But for some people who swing both ways, I think it is partly choice. Perhaps it is deeper than that, but imo I think they just are over sexual, and not necessarily gay.

Hard to say. There can be a range genetically also. Not necessarily strictly one way or another. You can be feminine in your physical characteristics yet be as straight as they come.

[rwm1273]

Hard to say. There can be a range genetically also. Not necessarily strictly one way or another. You can be feminine in your physical characteristics yet be as straight as they come.

Yes, but I am not talking about straight people. You can also appear to be very straight and a "man's man" yet be a gay as they come.

I know a gay couple, and the one was very feminine in his actions, it was clear to everyone that he was gay, and the other guy was a carpenter by trade, and you would never know he was gay if you were not told.

[Kurt505]

Ok.

Is this your way of coming out? I suspected it, and could care less which way you swing. I know we seem to be on the opposite side of the fence on the subject, but contrary to what you believe, we're not. I haven't got a problem with sexuality, wether by choice or science, it's flamers that irritate me, and the fact they feel a pride parade and special treatment should be given to them because they are gay.

If your coming out, congratulations, I wish you all the best, but don't hold your breath waiting to see me at a parade or sporting a rainbow flag because it's not going to happen.

[sns2]

There is no heterosexual parade, so why a gay pride parade? I have no problem whatsoever with equal rights and protection from discrimination. It's needed for all people. I do have a problem when sexual viewpoints are forced upon people. IMO, this stuff should be more private than paraded.

[1899b]

Diversity and respectful attitudes can be difficult to culture in people with preconceived notions.

Science can help explain it. This was well written. Points to homosexuality as not being a choice.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26089486

The evolutionary puzzle of homosexualityBy William Kremer

BBC World Service

In the last two decades, dozens of scientific papers have been published on the biological origins of homosexuality - another announcement was made last week. It's becoming scientific orthodoxy. But how does it fit with Darwin's theory of evolution?

Macklemore and Ryan Lewis's hit song Same Love, which has become an unofficial anthem of the pro-gay marriage campaign in the US, reflects how many gay people feel about their sexuality.

It mocks those who "think it's a decision, and you can be cured with some treatment and religion - man-made rewiring of a predisposition". A minority of gay people disagree, maintaining that sexuality is a social construct, and they have made a conscious, proud choice to take same-sex partners.

But scientific opinion is with Macklemore. Since the early 1990s, researchers have shown that homosexuality is more common in brothers and relatives on the same maternal line, and a genetic factor is taken to be the cause. Also relevant - although in no way proof - is research identifying physical differences in the brains of adult straight and gay people, and a dizzying array of homosexual behaviour in animals.

But since gay and lesbian people have fewer children than straight people, a problem arises.

"This is a paradox from an evolutionary perspective," says Paul Vasey from the University of Lethbridge in Canada. "How can a trait like male homosexuality, which has a genetic component, persist over evolutionary time if the individuals that carry the genes associated with that trait are not reproducing?"

Scientists don't know the answer to this Darwinian puzzle, but there are several theories. It's possible that different mechanisms may be at work in different people. Most of the theories relate to research on male homosexuality. The evolution of lesbianism is relatively understudied - it may work in a similar way or be completely different.


The genes that code for homosexuality do other things too

The allele - or group of genes - that sometimes codes for homosexual orientation may at other times have a strong reproductive benefit. This would compensate for gay people's lack of reproduction and ensure the continuation of the trait, as non-gay carriers of the gene pass it down.

There are two or more ways this might happen. One possibility is that the allele confers a psychological trait that makes straight men more attractive to women, or straight women more attractive to men. "We know that women tend to like more feminine behavioural features and facial features in their men, and that might be associated with things like good parenting skills or greater empathy," says Qazi Rahman, co-author of Born Gay; The Psychobiology of Sex Orientation. Therefore, the theory goes, a low "dose" of these alleles enhances the carrier's chances of reproductive success. Every now and then a family member receives a larger dose that affects his or her sexual orientation, but the allele still has an overall reproductive advantage.

Another way a "gay allele" might be able to compensate for a reproductive deficit is by having the converse effect in the opposite sex. For example, an allele which makes the bearer attracted to men has an obvious reproductive advantage to women. If it appears in a man's genetic code it will code for same-sex attraction, but so long as this happens rarely the allele still has a net evolutionary benefit.

There is some evidence for this second theory. Andrea Camperio-Ciani, at the University of Padova in Italy, found that maternal female relatives of gay men have more children than maternal female relatives of straight men. The implication is that there is an unknown mechanism in the X chromosome of men's genetic code which helps women in the family have more babies, but can lead to homosexuality in men. These results haven't been replicated in some ethnic groups - but that doesn't mean they are wrong with regards to the Italian population in Camperio-Ciani's study.


Gay people were 'helpers in the nest'


The fa'afafine of Samoa dislike being called "gay" or "homosexual"
Some researchers believe that to understand the evolution of gay people, we need to look at how they fit into the wider culture.

Paul Vasey's research in Samoa has focused on a theory called kin selection or the "helper in the nest" hypothesis. The idea is that gay people compensate for their lack of children by promoting the reproductive fitness of brothers or sisters, contributing money or performing other uncle-like activities such as babysitting or tutoring. Some of the gay person's genetic code is shared with nieces and nephews and so, the theory goes, the genes which code for sexual orientation still get passed down.

Sceptics have pointed out that since on average people share just 25% of their genetic code with these relatives, they would need to compensate for every child they don't have themselves with two nieces or nephews that wouldn't otherwise have existed. Vasey hasn't yet measured just how much having a homosexual orientation boosts siblings' reproduction rate, but he has established that in Samoa "gay" men spend more time on uncle-like activities than "straight" men.

"No-one was more surprised than me," says Vasey about his findings. His lab had previously shown that gay men in Japan were no more attentive or generous towards their nieces and nephews than straight, childless men and women. The same result has been found in the UK, US and Canada.

Vasey believes that his Samoan result was different because the men he studied there were different. He studied the fa'afafine, who identify as a third gender, dressing as women and having sex with men who regard themselves as "straight". They are a transgender group who do not like to be called "gay" or "homosexual".

Vasey speculates that part of the reason the fa'afafine are more attentive to their nephews and nieces is their acceptance in Samoan culture compared to gay men in the West and Japan ("You can't help your kin if they've rejected you"). But he also believes that there is something about the fa'afafine way of life that means they are more likely to be nurturing towards nieces and nephews, and speculates that he would find similar results in other "third gender" groups around the world.

If this is true, then the helper in the nest theory may partly explain how a genetic trait for same-sex attraction hasn't been selected away. That hypothesis has led Vasey to speculate that the gay men who identify as men and have masculine traits - that is to say, most gay men in the West - are descended from men who had a cross-gendered sexuality.

In the US, around 37% of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transsexual people have a child, about 60% of which are biological. According to the Williams Institute, gay couples that have children have an average of two.

These figures may not be high enough to sustain genetic traits specific to this group, but the evolutionary biologist Jeremy Yoder points out in a blog post that for much of modern history gay people haven't been living openly gay lives. Compelled by society to enter marriages and have children, their reproduction rates may have been higher than they are now.

How many gay people have children also depends on how you define being "gay". Many of the "straight" men who have sex with fa'afafine in Samoa go on to get married and have children.

"The category of same-sex sexuality becomes very diffuse when you take a multicultural perspective," says Joan Roughgarden, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Hawaii. "If you go to India, you'll find that if someone says they are 'gay' or 'homosexual' then that immediately identifies them as Western. But that doesn't mean there's no homosexuality there."

Similarly in the West, there is evidence that many people go through a phase of homosexual activity. In the 1940s, US sex researcher Alfred Kinsey found that while just 4% of white men were exclusively gay after adolescence, 10% had a three-year period of gay activity and 37% had gay sex at some point in their lives.

A national survey of sexual attitudes in the UK last year came up with lower figures. Some 16% of women said they had had a sexual experience with another woman (8% had genital contact), and 7% of men said they had had a sexual experience with a man (with 5% having genital contact).

But most scientists researching gay evolution are interested in an ongoing, internal pattern of desire rather than whether people identify as gay or straight or how often people have gay sex. "Sexual identity and sexual behaviours are not good measures of sexual orientation," says Paul Vasey. "Sexual feelings are."


It's not all in the DNA

Qazi Rahman says that alleles coding for same sex attraction only explain some of the variety in human sexuality. Other, naturally varying biological factors come into play, with about one in seven gay men, he says, owing their sexuality to the "big brother effect".

This has nothing to do with George Orwell, but describes the observation that boys with older brothers are significantly more likely to become gay - with every older brother the chance of homosexuality increases by about a third. No-one knows why this is, but one theory is that with each male pregnancy, a woman's body forms an immune reaction to proteins that have a role in the development of the male brain. Since this only comes into play after several siblings have been born - most of whom are heterosexual and go on to have children - this pre-natal quirk hasn't been selected away by evolution.

Exposure to unusual levels of hormone before birth can also affect sexuality. For example, female foetuses exposed to higher levels of testosterone before birth show higher rates of lesbianism later on. Studies show that "butch" lesbian women and men have a smaller difference in length between their index and ring fingers - a marker of pre-natal exposure to testosterone. In "femme" lesbians the difference has been found to be less marked.

Brothers of a different kind - identical twins - also pose a tricky question. Research has found that if an identical twin is gay, there is about a 20% chance that the sibling will have the same sexual orientation. While that's a greater likelihood than random, it's lower than you might expect for two people with the same genetic code.

William Rice, from the University of California Santa Barbara, says that it may be possible to explain this by looking not at our genetic code but at the way it is processed. Rice and his colleagues refer to the emerging field of epigenetics, which studies the "epimarks" that decide which parts of our DNA get switched on or off. Epimarks get passed on to children, but only sometimes. Rice believes that female foetuses employ an epimark that makes them less sensitive to testosterone. Usually it's not inherited, but occasionally it is, leading to same-sex preference in boys.

Dr William Byne, editor-in-chief of the journal LGBT Health, believes sexuality may well be inborn, but thinks it could be more complicated than some scientists believe. He notes that the heritability of homosexuality is similar to that for divorce, but "social science researchers have not… searched for 'divorce genes'. Instead they have focused on heritable personality and temperamental traits that might influence the likelihood of divorce."

For Qazi Rahman, it's the media that oversimplifies genetic theories of sexuality, with their reports of the discovery of "the gay gene". He believes that sexuality involves tens or perhaps hundreds of alleles that will probably take decades to uncover. And even if heterosexual sex is more advantageous in evolutionary terms than gay sex, it's not only gay people whose sexuality is determined by their genes, he says, but straight people too.

How gay.........

[260 Rem]

Sexual orientaion is genetic. Relgious anti-gay doctrine was written in a time when the robust reproduction dictated the survival of the "believers." Education has more people understanding science. Religeous doctrine is changing. A hundred years from now, sexual orientaion will not matter to anyone.

[Sundancefisher]

Yes, but I am not talking about straight people. You can also appear to be very straight and a "man's man" yet be a gay as they come.

I know a gay couple, and the one was very feminine in his actions, it was clear to everyone that he was gay, and the other guy was a carpenter by trade, and you would never know he was gay if you were not told.

True enough. Good point. The stereotypes do not always apply.

[Okotokian]

Sexuality by choice???? Why would anyone chooe to be discriminated against? LOL

If you really do think it's all choice, simply ask yourself this: Do you find lots of other men really really attractive and you just choose not to pursue those opportunities, or do dudes just really not do a thing for you, naturally? If the latter, it's not choice. ;)

[Wild&Free]

How gay.........

You had to quote the entire article to say that......

[1899b]

You had to quote the entire article to say that......

:sHa_shakeshout:

[mayuan]

Sexuality by choice???? Why would anyone chooe to be discriminated against? LOL

If you really do think it's all choice, simply ask yourself this: Do you find lots of other men really really attractive and you just choose not to pursue those opportunities, or do dudes just really not do a thing for you, naturally? If the latter, it's not choice. ;)

You can have people that are attracted to the lifestyle of being gay. I know one guy that lives a gay man, but to this day I will swear he is strait.

[Okotokian]

You can have people that are attracted to the lifestyle of being gay. I know one guy that lives a gay man, but to this day I will swear he is strait.
What exactly is the "lifestyle of being gay"?

[sns2]

Sexual orientaion is genetic. Relgious anti-gay doctrine was written in a time when the robust reproduction dictated the survival of the "believers." Education has more people understanding science. Religeous doctrine is changing. A hundred years from now, sexual orientaion will not matter to anyone.

I would say quite confidently that this generation of students couldn't care less about it. IMO, no longer an issue in the way our generation views it.

BTW, churches are much more accepting than most would imagine.

[recce43]

Sexuality by choice???? Why would anyone chooe to be discriminated against? LOL

If you really do think it's all choice, simply ask yourself this: Do you find lots of other men really really attractive and you just choose not to pursue those opportunities, or do dudes just really not do a thing for you, naturally? If the latter, it's not choice. ;)

ONLY ATTRACTED TO YOU OKIE:love0025:

[brownbomber]

Don't see why some put so much time and energy into what's up with the gays.... Personally there isn't much that they do that affects my life.

[Kurt505]

Don't see why some put so much time and energy into what's up with the gays.... Personally there isn't much that they do that affects my life.

Overcompensation spawned from an inferiority complex.

[brownbomber]

Overcompensation spawned from an inferiority complex.

Don't know ....it's something. Everybody entitled to their thoughts on it, just not something that is on my worry list.

[Wild&Free]

Don't know ....it's something. Everybody entitled to their thoughts on it, just not something that is on my worry list.

Bingo

[JimPS]

I would say quite confidently that this generation of students couldn't care less about it. IMO, no longer an issue in the way our generation views it.

BTW, churches are much more accepting than most would imagine.

I would say you are correct in saying it is pretty much a non issue with young people.

By the time our current generations of middle aged and old people die off, it will no longer be an issue at all in our society.

Old biases, misunderstandings, fears and hatred take time to go away.

[ganderblaster]

I think this forum is having its .

[Wild&Free]

I think this forum is having its period.

It's called cabin fever

[CaberTosser]

I'm with Bomber in that I couldn't care less what others do because it doesn't affect me one bit, but I do think that the bizarre S&M gear worn at the pride parades should be toned down. There's nothing suitable for public viewing by children about that. You don't see straight people holding parades like that. Who's down for a B&D swingers float at the Stampede parade?

[Wild&Free]

I'm with Bomber in that I couldn't care less what others do because it doesn't affect me one bit, but I do think that the bizarre S&M gear worn at the pride parades should be toned down. There's nothing suitable for public viewing by children about that. You don't see straight people holding parades like that. Who's down for a B&D swingers float at the Stampede parade?

Wonder Woman costumes at comic-cons and similar skimpy attire is about the same logically. Dual standards are good for some but not others, mmmmm Wonder Woman :)

[JimPS]

It's called cabin fever

Naw - were just getting more civilized.

In the past we'd just go out and beat up que*rs or something - now we just slag each other with the keyboard.

[Big Daddy Badger]

You can have people that are attracted to the lifestyle of being gay. I know one guy that lives a gay man, but to this day I will swear he is strait.

Why?

Is it because he won't go out with you?:sHa_shakeshout:

Sorry... I just could not pass up such an obvious opportunity...lol:)

[Big Daddy Badger]

When you see the typical gay man with very feminine actions, imo that is not a learned behavior, it is genetic.

But for some people who swing both ways, I think it is partly choice. Perhaps it is deeper than that, but imo I think they just are over sexual, and not necessarily gay.

I think its probably a bit more complicated than that...people are not so cut and dry that they can be defined quite that neatly but... the explaination you provided pretty much gets at the heart of it.

[rwm1273]

What exactly is the "lifestyle of being gay"?

Depends, it could be similar to feminists. Some people associate with a particular group and are proud to be associated with that group, and push their opinion of that group on everyone else. It could be gays, feminists, or religious fundamentalists.

Any group that pushes their opinion and demands that I give them respect for their opinion at the expense of mine is wrong, and gets no respect from me.

I am totally against our governments flying the gay flag. It has no reason to be flown. If we are going to start to fly flags of every group that demands special recognition, there won't be anything left of our culture.

I am not anti gay, I just don't see a reason to have gay pride parades. If I want a white anglosaxon straight parade, all these groups will be demanding to have me arrested or labeled sexist or racist.

However I do think it is time that we grant gay people the same rights as heterosexual couples have. I see no reason why a committed gay couple can't share in the same benefits as heterosexual couples. They can enjoy divorce, alimony and custody battles just the same as the rest of us.

[220swifty]

Sexuality by choice???? Why would anyone chooe to be discriminated against? LOL

If you really do think it's all choice, simply ask yourself this: Do you find lots of other men really really attractive and you just choose not to pursue those opportunities, or do dudes just really not do a thing for you, naturally? If the latter, it's not choice. ;)

Why do people stretch holes in their ear lobes big enough to fit an Oreo cookie in? Why do they turn their entire bodies into a tattoo canvas or put enough holes in their faces that a taxidermist wouldn't touch them?

Why do you choose to be a gun owner and hunter in today's society.

People choose to be discriminated against every day.

[rwm1273]

I'm with Bomber in that I couldn't care less what others do because it doesn't affect me one bit, but I do think that the bizarre S&M gear worn at the pride parades should be toned down. There's nothing suitable for public viewing by children about that. You don't see straight people holding parades like that. Who's down for a B&D swingers float at the Stampede parade?

This is exactly how I feel about the gay pride parades. Keep your kink in your bedroom, not in front of my kids.

[Donkey Oatey]

This is exactly how I feel about the gay pride parades. Keep your kink in your bedroom, not in front of my kids.

Guess you are not a fan of Mardi Gras either?

[Jack&7]

You had to quote the entire article to say that......

X100. How lame was that?

I believe it is not by choice but a genetic disposition. But I do wonder how homosexuality 'survived' through medieval times. You would think that those days were probably the hardest times to be gay. Obviously, homosexuality existed prior to those days (ancient Romans, Greeks, etc.) as it was common-place and accepted but the rise of the Church and puritanical values probably drove homosexuality deep underground.

I wonder if there were as many gays back then (proportionally speaking vs. world population) as there are now. Was there just as many, but they stayed hidden out of fear or has the increased social acceptance in today's world 'allowed' more gay people to come out and even making it easier for some who might be on the fence to fully identify as being gay...thus supporting the 'choice' theory?

[rwm1273]

Don't know ....it's something. Everybody entitled to their thoughts on it, just not something that is on my worry list.

It is on mine when they want to start pushing the lifestyle at my kid's school. I agree that kids should learn about sex education, but not about alternative lifestyles.

And I am totally against coed school bathrooms like they are pushing in California. I also think it is wrong for parents to raise their child as a non sex from birth. Kids will adapt to what you teach them as much as they will associate with their hormones. Let hormones and nature control who they are.

My son always liked to play with trucks and was rough. My daughter was always girly and liked dolls. I would never force my daughter to play with trucks and my son to play with dolls, and I think parents who do this are harming their child.

[Okotokian]

ONLY ATTRACTED TO YOU OKIE:love0025:

Well of course. Can't blame you there. ;) LOL

[brownbomber]

It is on mine when they want to start pushing the lifestyle at my kid's school. I agree that kids should learn about sex education, but not about alternative lifestyles.

And I am totally against coed school bathrooms like they are pushing in California. I also think it is wrong for parents to raise their child as a non sex from birth. Kids will adapt to what you teach them as much as they will associate with their hormones. Let hormones and nature control who they are.

My son always liked to play with trucks and was rough. My daughter was always girly and liked dolls. I would never force my daughter to play with trucks and my son to play with dolls, and I think parents who do this are harming their child.

That's why I don't worry, other parents do that non sex raising not me. Wouldn't send my kids to a school with coed bathroom. No problem.

[rwm1273]

Guess you are not a fan of Mardi Gras either?

Not for my children. And such parades as Mardi Gras and Carnival have been transformed from the fun religious holiday into a sexual festival, by people who make their living selling sin.

Gay pride parades are supposed to be about tolerance, but when you dress up in S&M and turn it into a sexual debacle, that is where you lose my respect.

[rwm1273]

That's why I don't worry, other parents do that non sex raising not me. Wouldn't send my kids to a school with coed bathroom. No problem.

Not sure you would have much choice if you lived in California.

[brownbomber]

Not sure you would have much choice if you lived in California.

But I live in Alberta :)

[rwm1273]

Well of course. Can't blame you there. ;) LOL

I think he is just drawn to your costume.

[Wild&Free]

Not sure you would have much choice if you lived in California.

Private school until the first couple of sex assault cases hit the msm.

School bathroom is probably the most dangerous room in the building. One exit, no windows, no supervision....

[brownbomber]

Not sure you would have much choice if you lived in California.

So there is only a coed bathroom? Or is there boys,girls and coed?

[CaberTosser]

Wonder Woman costumes at comic-cons and similar skimpy attire is about the same logically. Dual standards are good for some but not others, mmmmm Wonder Woman :)

I've never witnessed Wonder Woman dry humping anyone bent over on a float while holding their leash. It would only be a double standard if the behaviors were the same. I'm not saying they can't do it in private, they can do whatever the heck they please as consenting adults, its just perhaps that trying to show a little common decency in public might garner them more support. I do support the gay community, just perhaps not to its most extreme extents in full public view, just as I don't support straight public indecency. I had actually once made a few posts in a thread on AO to make it seem that I didn't support a segment of the gay population, but I was actually trolling my gay brother-in-law whose basement suite we were renting while we built our new house. I knew he was monitoring our internet usage and I felt it to be a wholly unacceptable violation of our privacy as well as the landlord/tenant act so I left him a little something he wouldn't be able to resist confronting me about. What I expressed in that thread wasn't my actual stance on the issue being discussed. I even threw in some hyperbole for good measure, and it did garner a response.

[Jack&7]

Depends, it could be similar to feminists. Some people associate with a particular group and are proud to be associated with that group, and push their opinion of that group on everyone else. It could be gays, feminists, or religious fundamentalists.

Any group that pushes their opinion and demands that I give them respect for their opinion at the expense of mine is wrong, and gets no respect from me.

I am totally against our governments flying the gay flag. It has no reason to be flown. If we are going to start to fly flags of every group that demands special recognition, there won't be anything left of our culture.

I am not anti gay, I just don't see a reason to have gay pride parades. If I want a white anglosaxon straight parade, all these groups will be demanding to have me arrested or labeled sexist or racist.

However I do think it is time that we grant gay people the same rights as heterosexual couples have. I see no reason why a committed gay couple can't share in the same benefits as heterosexual couples. They can enjoy divorce, alimony and custody battles just the same as the rest of us.


This....exactly. And that last part especially!

I am also against gay pride flags being flown on government buildings. But not for the reason you might think. I get that gays are trying to raise awareness, but guess what? WE ARE ALL AWARE OF GAY PEOPLE ALREADY! You will never change the minds of those that don't agree with you...just accept it and move on. It has gotten to the point now where it does seem like the rest of society is being forced to accept more and more gay culture.

By flying flags for a special interest group, a precedent has been set. So now, when a white supremacy group (for example) says they want to fly a flag of their own, how can you deny them? I wonder what some of you would say then? What if a Catholic church wanted to fly a flag at city hall with nothing other than a large cross on it for Easter? Would you agree with that? I can only imagine the furor.

Government buildings should only fly the Canadian Flag, the provincial flag or the civic flag (depending on what level of government they are.)

I am not anti-gay...just so tired of ALL the groups clamouring to be more 'special' than everyone else.

[Wild&Free]

I've never witnessed Wonder Woman dry humping anyone bent over on a float while holding their leash. It would only be a double standard if the behaviors were the same. I'm not saying they can't do it in private, they can do whatever the heck they please as consenting adults, its just perhaps that trying to show a little common decency in public might garner them more support. I do support the gay community, just perhaps not to its most extreme extents in full public view, just as I don't support straight public indecency. I had actually once made a few posts in a thread on AO to make it seem that I didn't support a segment of the gay population, but I was actually trolling my gay brother-in-law whose basement suite we were renting while we built our new house. I knew he was monitoring our internet usage and I felt it to be a wholly unacceptable violation of our privacy as well as the landlord/tenant act so I left him a little something he wouldn't be able to resist confronting me about. What I expressed in that thread wasn't my actual stance on the issue being discussed. I even threw in some hyperbole for good measure, and it garnered a response.

Yes dressing in revealing attire is completely different then acting like a deviant in public that's for sure. But just like every group from gays, feminists, environmentalists, and gun owners there are always some who do not tolerate the views of others in the promotion of their own views.

Your first post was only about attire and not conduct FYI. I'm not a mind reader so thanks for clarifying your point. The devil is in the details or lack there of.

[CanuckShooter]

It is on mine when they want to start pushing the lifestyle at my kid's school. I agree that kids should learn about sex education, but not about alternative lifestyles.

And I am totally against coed school bathrooms like they are pushing in California. I also think it is wrong for parents to raise their child as a non sex from birth. Kids will adapt to what you teach them as much as they will associate with their hormones. Let hormones and nature control who they are.

My son always liked to play with trucks and was rough. My daughter was always girly and liked dolls. I would never force my daughter to play with trucks and my son to play with dolls, and I think parents who do this are harming their child.


And how do you feel about gays/breeders sharing the gang showers in schools here in Canada?

[CanuckShooter]

This....exactly. And that last part especially!

Government buildings should only fly the Canadian Flag, the provincial flag or the civic flag (depending on what level of government they are.)


They should also proudly display the banner or flag of the First Nation who's territory they are in. :)

[Kurt505]

They should also proudly display the banner or flag of the First Nation who's territory they are in. :)

They do, its Canada and the Canadian provinces ;)

[diamond k]

I'm with Bomber in that I couldn't care less what others do because it doesn't affect me one bit, but I do think that the bizarre S&M gear worn at the pride parades should be toned down. There's nothing suitable for public viewing by children about that. You don't see straight people holding parades like that. Who's down for a B&D swingers float at the Stampede parade?

Agree 100% except no to the float. I get motion sickness.

[1899b]

They should also proudly display the banner or flag of the First Nation who's territory they are in. :)

I'm in a province not a territory.

[Sundancefisher]

I'm with Bomber in that I couldn't care less what others do because it doesn't affect me one bit, but I do think that the bizarre S&M gear worn at the pride parades should be toned down. There's nothing suitable for public viewing by children about that. You don't see straight people holding parades like that. Who's down for a B&D swingers float at the Stampede parade?

Most gay folks don't like the weird parades. That is a big stereotypical hang up with some on the forum.

Most gay people look act like everyone else. You can't tell by how they look, act or sound.

It is a small fringe group that goes over the top. There are also the over the top fringe group of heterosexuals I dislike. Those guys that act like they are god's gift to the women at the bar. Talk trash and are rude. They don't speak for all heterosexuals so people should not judge all gay people by the behavoir of a few.

Still this thread is getting side tracked by some hatreds and it would serve the thread well to stay on the topic of the article.

Genetics based DNA coding of sexuality. It is the accepted scientific basis for saying we should not judge someone for whom they are.

As mentioned before... if you truly feel someone "chooses" the "lifestyle" as opposed to staying heterosexual...that does imply those people have those "feelings" and are chosing themselves to ignore them.

Seems odd and that I don't get. If you have those feelings you are gay. If you don't have those feelings you are straight. There are some gray areas of bisexuality that can come into play but I know all straight men don't act straight...they are straight. They can't choose to be gay.

The whole genetics of the topic is very interesting.

[canadiantdi]

BTW, churches are much more accepting than most would imagine.

This is what I have noticed also..

The churches that I have been to usually have the opinion that gay people need church, just as any other person. The idea isn't to have a gay person show up and then yell at them, just as you wouldn't yell at someone having sex outside of marriage or who is an adulterer.. The message seems to be that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, some in one way, some in another. No person is tempted to every sin.

[covey ridge]

Wonder Woman costumes at comic-cons and similar skimpy attire is about the same logically. Dual standards are good for some but not others, mmmmm Wonder Woman :)

The only one I like in a wonder woman costume is wonder woman:)

[CanuckShooter]

Most gay folks don't like the weird parades. That is a big stereotypical hang up with some on the forum.

Most gay people look act like everyone else. You can't tell by how they look, act or sound.




You sure as heck can tell....gaydar works like a hot damm. Just ask, most women are experts at picking out the gay men.

[covey ridge]

Don't know ....it's something. Everybody entitled to their thoughts on it, just not something that is on my worry list.

Yep!

[canadiantdi]

Why do people stretch holes in their ear lobes big enough to fit an Oreo cookie in? Why do they turn their entire bodies into a tattoo canvas or put enough holes in their faces that a taxidermist wouldn't touch them?

Why do you choose to be a gun owner and hunter in today's society.

People choose to be discriminated against every day.

I agree.. People who are ostracized and don't fit in with their peers have something to gain by being gay. Feel unloved and lonely for long enough, and you may feel attraction to a group or person who shows you some compassion, understanding and love.

[canadiantdi]

This is exactly how I feel about the gay pride parades. Keep your kink in your bedroom, not in front of my kids.

Those parades are not doing gay people any favours amongst a large portion of society..

[Sundancefisher]

I agree.. People who are ostracized and don't fit in with their peers have something to gain by being gay. Feel unloved and lonely for long enough, and you may feel attraction to a group or person who shows you some compassion, understanding and love.

Did you not read the article? What you are stating is your personal opinion based upon your internalized built up negative feelings that are over compensated due to the fear of the unknown.

Likely you have friends that feel your hatred and refuse to let you know.

There is absolutely no common sense in your statement that anyone would chose to be gay just for attention. Shows why an article like this is needed to educate away the bigotry.

[canadiantdi]

But I live in Alberta :)

Still could be a sign of things to come though.. society is becoming/is extremely permissive.

[Sundancefisher]

So again. It came up before that some said people chose to be gay. Yet the science say not correct as per the OP. Keep on topic please.

[Wild&Free]

Those who think being gay is a choice should look into the research being done on free will. The majority of neuroscience has shown that it does not exist.

[canadiantdi]

Did you not read the article? What you are stating is your personal opinion based upon your internalized built up negative feelings that are over compensated due to the fear of the unknown.

Likely you have friends that feel your hatred and refuse to let you know.

There is absolutely no common sense in your statement that anyone would chose to be gay just for attention. Shows why an article like this is needed to educate away the bigotry.

Wow, you know me so well! hahahaha

I believe what I said makes sense, It's ok that you don't agree with me..

[canadiantdi]

So again. It came up before that some said people chose to be gay. Yet the science say not correct as per the OP. Keep on topic please.

So differing opinions are "off topic"??

[CanuckShooter]

I agree.. People who are ostracized and don't fit in with their peers have something to gain by being gay. Feel unloved and lonely for long enough, and you may feel attraction to a group or person who shows you some compassion, understanding and love.

Totally agree with what your saying. And if your trying to bust into the fashion industry, or even film or music these days it helps your resume if your gay. Doesn't anyone ever notice how many gays are on tv?

[Wild&Free]

Totally agree with what your saying. And if your trying to bust into the fashion industry, or even film or music these days it helps your resume if your gay. Doesn't anyone ever notice how many gays are on tv?

About as much as I notice straights. Plus drama class isn't for everyone.

[canadiantdi]

About as much as I notice straights.

You gotta admit though, they represent a small portion of society, but are heavily represented on television. TV shows are tripping over themselves to show how progressive/anti-traditional they are..

[Wild&Free]

You gotta admit though, they represent a small portion of society, but are heavily represented on television. TV shows are tripping over themselves to show how progressive/anti-traditional they are..

Yea, duck dynasty is a prime example of that is it not?:sHa_sarcasticlol:

[Okotokian]

Yea, duck dynasty is a prime example of that is it not?:sHa_sarcasticlol:

Yeah, all those good old boys have "beards" ;) LOL

[Wild&Free]

Yeah, all those good old boys have "beards" ;) LOL

Yup, and very popular without a single open homosexual on the air.

[canadiantdi]

Yea, duck dynasty is a prime example of that is it not?:sHa_sarcasticlol:

lol there are exceptions to every rule! There's enough people that want that show shut down though due to religious beliefs that aren't palatable to secular society anymore..

[Okotokian]

Yup, and very popular without a single open homosexual on the air.

ZIP.... whew. You missed it.

Anyway, you trying to say they don't have one? Oh come on. Are you blind????? Old "Uncle Sy"?

[Dacotensis]

Sexuality by choice???? Why would anyone chooe to be discriminated against? LOL

If you really do think it's all choice, simply ask yourself this: Do you find lots of other men really really attractive and you just choose not to pursue those opportunities, or do dudes just really not do a thing for you, naturally? If the latter, it's not choice. ;)

Would it surprise you to know that there are ppl who pretend to be disabled?
They pretend to have a spinal cord injury, or pretend to need crutches or braces, or they pretend to be hearing impaired.
Why do they want to represent themselves this way?

They are called pretenders or wannabe's.

It's a strange world we live in..

[Kurt505]

Are you coming out Sundance? Not that it's any of my business, but would explain some threads and passion behind some of your posts.

I'm glad to hear even the gay community is annoyed by flamers tho.

If you're gay you're gay, no need for a parade. If you want acceptance from a straight guy, prancing around with a pair of Elton Johns favorite glasses and a feathery scarf while in a parade kissing another man isn't helping change the stereotype. Neither is raising a rainbow flag, it actually has the exact opposite effect.

Would it have killed anyone to just accept Vladimir's views and respect them while you're in his house? There's no need to raise a flag in defiance while you're there. Now the whole thing is somewhat of a black eye for both sides.

It's possible for science to prove just about anything BUT, if you factor in free will all the science in the world can't prove the reason we make the choices we make. IMO.

[Jack&7]

And how do you feel about gays/breeders sharing the gang showers in schools here in Canada?

They should also proudly display the banner or flag of the First Nation who's territory they are in. :)

Canuck...Do us a favour. Take your trolling some where else. Nobody is going to bite on your tired rhetoric here.

[Wild&Free]

It's possible for science to prove just about anything BUT, if you factor in free will all the science in the world can't prove the reason we make the choices we make. IMO.

Science is method of observing the natural world, recording and testing and uses logic and reason to come to a conclusion. It cannot "prove just about anything" as you claim as you must be able to replicate the results. Faith in the unknown doesn't require logic reason or the ability to be replicated. As soon as a virgin gives birth and that child grows up to walk on water, turn water to wine, feeds a large group of people with two fish and a loaf of bread then after death by crucifixion returns from internment in a grave will belief trump science for me. Pretty sure I forgot a few miracles but you get the point I hope.

As for free will, type "does free will exist" into Google and see what comes up.

[CanuckShooter]

Canuck...Do us a favour. Take your trolling some where else. Nobody is going to bite on your tired rhetoric here.


Oh you are so gay....:)

[Kurt505]

Science is method of observing the natural world, recording and testing and uses logic and reason to come to a conclusion. It cannot "prove just about anything" as you claim as you must be able to replicate the results. Faith in the unknown doesn't require logic reason or the ability to be replicated. As soon as a virgin gives birth and that child grows up to walk on water, turn water to wine, feeds a large group of people with two fish and a loaf of bread then after death by crucifixion returns from internment in a grave will belief trump science for me. Pretty sure I forgot a few miracles but you get the point I hope.

As for free will, type "does free will exist" into Google and see what comes up.
What is it you're trying to say?

Are you quoting me just trying to pick a fight?

What is it about my opinion you are debating now?

Btw, I don't have to google free will to know it exists, nobody told me to log on today, I decided to.

[Wild&Free]

ZIP.... whew. You missed it.

Anyway, you trying to say they don't have one? Oh come on. Are you blind????? Old "Uncle Sy"?

I've never watched the show to be honest with ya oko.

I was posting out my arse and you caught me. GJ

[CanuckShooter]

And how do you feel about gays/breeders sharing the gang showers in schools here in Canada?


So some people have issues with co-ed bathrooms....and they see nothing wrong with mixing of straights and gays of the same sex in bathrooms and showers? Personally I would be more comfortable sharing a gang shower with a straight woman than a gay guy.......unlike my buddy Jack. :)

[chasingtail]

You sure as heck can tell....gaydar works like a hot damm. Just ask, most women are experts at picking out the gay men.

My gaydar used to be 100% accurate but it may now be broken as all sirens go off anytime I see Justin Trudeau.

I could care less who's gay, not something I ever cared about but it's starting to get really annoying when you can't watch anything nowadays without it being shoved in your face, and now they are going after our children. For a while our children were safer with gays out of the closet but Like any movement it usually goes to far.

[rwm1273]

So there is only a coed bathroom? Or is there boys,girls and coed?

Here is a link to an article that explains the knew law.

http://townhall.com/columnists/rebeccahagelin/2013/10/29/california-strips-privacy-from-kids-the-coed-bathroom-law-n1732783/page/full

A few short months ago, California Governor Jerry Brown signed AB 1266, a first-of-its kind law, now known as the “Co-Ed Bathroom Bill.” The bill, as I’ve noted previously, opens girls’ restrooms, locker rooms, and school showers to any child who ‘self-identifies’ as a girl---including boys who decide they really ‘are’ transgender girls. The same holds true for boys—a girl who decides her ‘true gender self’ is a boy, must be allowed to use the boys’ restrooms, showers and locker rooms. In addition, so-called ‘transgendered’ children must be allowed to play on opposite-sex sports teams if they so choose. (Which really means that enterprising boys will dominate girls’ sports teams.)

The law hinges on the child’s right to decide his or her gender—a child might decide to “be” female one day and ‘male’ the next. It all depends on feelings and the child’s “self-identification.“ Translation: I am who I say I am, no matter what my body looks like.

[canadiantdi]

My gaydar used to be 100% accurate but it may now be broken as all sirens go off anytime I see Justin Trudeau.

I could care less who's gay, not something I ever cared about but it's starting to get really annoying when you can't watch anything nowadays without it being shoved in your face, and now they are going after our children. For a while our children were safer with gays out of the closet but Like any movement it usually goes to far.

What do you mean "they are going after our children"?

[canadiantdi]

Here is a link to an article that explains the knew law.

http://townhall.com/columnists/rebeccahagelin/2013/10/29/california-strips-privacy-from-kids-the-coed-bathroom-law-n1732783/page/full

A few short months ago, California Governor Jerry Brown signed AB 1266, a first-of-its kind law, now known as the “Co-Ed Bathroom Bill.” The bill, as I’ve noted previously, opens girls’ restrooms, locker rooms, and school showers to any child who ‘self-identifies’ as a girl---including boys who decide they really ‘are’ transgender girls. The same holds true for boys—a girl who decides her ‘true gender self’ is a boy, must be allowed to use the boys’ restrooms, showers and locker rooms. In addition, so-called ‘transgendered’ children must be allowed to play on opposite-sex sports teams if they so choose. (Which really means that enterprising boys will dominate girls’ sports teams.)

The law hinges on the child’s right to decide his or her gender—a child might decide to “be” female one day and ‘male’ the next. It all depends on feelings and the child’s “self-identification.“ Translation: I am who I say I am, no matter what my body looks like.

This just doesn't seem like a good idea at all.

[Wild&Free]

This just doesn't seem like a good idea at all.

Gender needs its definition changed from having specific sex organs or self identification to either possessing the Y chromosome or not.

[rwm1273]

And how do you feel about gays/breeders sharing the gang showers in schools here in Canada?

All I know is there are stats that say 1 in 10 is gay. I am sure given those stats that I have showered or shared a bathroom with someone who was gay when I was in the military. However I have never been confronted or hit upon by anyone who was gay in those environments.

In my experience, gay people are attracted to gay people, not straight people. And from my dealings with people who have served in war zones with gay people, their sexuality had no effect on their ability or professionalism.

[rwm1273]

This just doesn't seem like a good idea at all.

I agree. What they don't seem to address is the simple fact that a child who is wishy washy with their sexuality will suffer in school by bullying. And the other issue is that students who suffer this lack of direction with their own sexuality, and then get bullied by it, often have higher levels of suicide and drug use.

When a child is given this power to act out how they feel when they really have no true self identity in the first place, I think it is wrong, and sets up a situation where the child, and that is what they still are, is going to suffer.

Society is a tough place, and children need to learn this, not be taught that they can be and do what they want, because they will hit a wall once they are no longer protected by teachers.

This new law in California is going to be a bad thing for their students, and society as a whole. And by setting a precedent at such an early age, as this bill starts to affect students in their first year of school, these children really don't know who they are, and will be pressured to fit into which ever group of friends they associate with.

[BeeGuy]

We all know that the New Testament condemns homosexuality as sexual immorality and accepts servitude as the natural order of things. End of discussion.

So let's take it back to the good old days, 1611, when King James commissioned 47 church of England scholars to interpret, translate and construct the most popular version of the good word.

I keep telling the wife that the good book demands her subservience to me and that I want a sandwich, but can you believe it, she says I can make it myself and to go to hell.

What is this world coming to????

[CanuckShooter]

My gaydar used to be 100% accurate but it may now be broken as all sirens go off anytime I see Justin Trudeau.

I could care less who's gay, not something I ever cared about but it's starting to get really annoying when you can't watch anything nowadays without it being shoved in your face, and now they are going after our children. For a while our children were safer with gays out of the closet but Like any movement it usually goes to far.

I know what you mean...it might be the makeup?

[canadiantdi]

All I know is there are stats that say 1 in 10 is gay. I am sure given those stats that I have showered or shared a bathroom with someone who was gay when I was in the military. However I have never been confronted or hit upon by anyone who was gay in those environments.

In my experience, gay people are attracted to gay people, not straight people. And from my dealings with people who have served in war zones with gay people, their sexuality had no effect on their ability or professionalism.

Sexual attraction can be obviously quite physical.. to say that gay people aren't physically attracted to straight people doesn't even make sense to me. A good looking lesbian woman is a good looking woman.

[Sundancefisher]

So differing opinions are "off topic"??

Nope... Your opinion was on topic.

I was referring to the flags, wonderwoman comments, trying to starting an online fight by saying I am outing, pride parades etc.

Your position that you have homosexual feelings you chose to repress when others don't and therefore others are weaker and lesser for it is reasonable for you to express. Nobody says you can not express yourself as to who you are and how you feel.

If I am mistaken in my interpretation and you do not have homosexual thoughts...does that not mean that choice does not play into it? In other words... can you see yourself attracted to a man or a woman...just a man and you force yourself to be with a woman...or just a woman and you don't wish to admit it for the sake of argument online?

I am curious however as to did you take the time to read and comprehend everything in the article or just go straight to posting that you feel it is personal choice to be gay or straight?

Your comments are not strange and new but rather do represent a portion of your average folk. So understanding what it is above that you feel can help someone like me understand your position and why you are so adamant it could not be genetic?

[Kurt505]

Sexual attraction can be obviously quite physical.. to say that gay people aren't physically attracted to straight people doesn't even make sense to me. A good looking lesbian woman is a good looking woman.

X2

[Sundancefisher]

You gotta admit though, they represent a small portion of society, but are heavily represented on television. TV shows are tripping over themselves to show how progressive/anti-traditional they are..

OK.

It is still off topic but...

How many actors are there in the industry? How many of them are gay? When you count are you just countin guys or gals also? Are you really saying that 1 is too many or do you have number that dramatically differ from the most recent sexuality census?

[rwm1273]

Sexual attraction can be obviously quite physical.. to say that gay people aren't physically attracted to straight people doesn't even make sense to me. A good looking lesbian woman is a good looking woman.

Don't get me wrong, there may be an attraction, but most people have the common sense to know when not to approach someone who is clearly not going to be interested.

[Wild&Free]

We all know that the New Testament condemns homosexuality as sexual immorality and accepts servitude as the natural order of things. End of discussion.

So let's take it back to the good old days, 1611, when King James commissioned 47 church of England scholars to interpret, translate and construct the most popular version of the good word.

I keep telling the wife that the good book demands her subservience to me and that I want a sandwich, but can you believe it, she says I can make it myself and to go to hell.

What is this world coming to????
I so do enjoy your insightful views.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Don't get me wrong, there may be an attraction, but most people have the common sense to know when not to approach someone who is clearly not going to be interested.

That is assuming you know they are lesbian....I have a good story about two hot lesbians but can't really post it here.

LC :)

[Kurt505]

I so do enjoy your insightful views.

Lets try and keep the closet talk out of this one ;)

[BeeGuy]

That is assuming you know they are lesbian....I have a good story about two hot lesbians but can't really post it here.

LC :)

Praise be to the baby jeebs for all those bi-curious college gals.

[nof60]

Praise be to the baby jeebs for all those bi-curious college gals.

Halleluah brother and can I get an amen.

On another note I think I may be a lesbian.

[rwm1273]

That is assuming you know they are lesbian....I have a good story about two hot lesbians but can't really post it here.

LC :)

Don't most men have a wish to be with a couple hot lesbians at some time in their life?

I was lucky enough to be involved in such a liaison, unfortunately they were not exactly "hot".

[Kurt505]

Don't most men have a wish to be with a couple hot lesbians at some time in their life?

I was lucky enough to be involved in such a liaison, unfortunately they were not exactly "hot".

Luck of the draw man, some opportunities can't be passed up, hind sight is sometimes best left as is.

Was it dark at least?

[rwm1273]

Luck of the draw man, some opportunities can't be passed up, hind sight is sometimes best left as is.

Was it dark at least?

The lights were off. And alcohol was involved.

[nof60]

Yup, and very popular without a single open homosexual on the air.

I see what you did there......and I approve this message:sHa_shakeshout:

[avb3]

Don't most men have a wish to be with a couple hot lesbians at some time in their life?

I was lucky enough to be involved in such a liaison, unfortunately they were not exactly "hot".

I just bought my sailboat from a lesbian. You'd never know, she was good looking and very feminine, and her girl friend was drop dead gorgeous.

Other than that very much cared about each other, there was nothing that was strange or weird about them.

Still kind of wished the drop dead gorgeous one was into men :)

[canadiantdi]

Don't get me wrong, there may be an attraction, but most people have the common sense to know when not to approach someone who is clearly not going to be interested.

For sure! That is why I should be allowed to shower with the women. I know when to not approach and just watch from a distance.

[CanuckShooter]

For sure! That is why I should be allowed to shower with the women. I know when to not approach and just watch from a distance.

Half mast comes to mind....that is assuming you have some control. :sHa_sarcasticlol:

[covey ridge]

What is it you're trying to say?
Btw, I don't have to google free will to know it exists, nobody told me to log on today, I decided to.

I guess we cancel each other out. When I saw the title, I felt I should not log on but I did not have the will power to resist:sHa_shakeshout:

[CNP]

Sexuality by choice???? Why would anyone chooe to be discriminated against? LOL

If you really do think it's all choice, simply ask yourself this: Do you find lots of other men really really attractive and you just choose not to pursue those opportunities, or do dudes just really not do a thing for you, naturally? If the latter, it's not choice. ;)


Do you find a bag of cash that just fell off a truck as tempting and do you choose not to make off with it? or does money just not do a thing for you? It's a choice. Thinking something and then carrying it out.......hmmmmmmm. Thought put to action = choice.

[Sundancefisher]

Do you find a bag of cash that just fell off a truck as tempting and do you choose not to make off with it? or does money just not do a thing for you? It's a choice. Thinking something and then carrying it out.......hmmmmmmm. Thought put to action = choice.

I still don't get this argument. Are you saying you do find men sexually attractive and choose women out of social convention? Or do you find men and women equally sexually attractive and just choose women. Or do you just find women attractive and can't see finding a man attractive?

Or are you just paying for it either way? Not sure your point is clear with the money analogy?

You are chosing NOT to put your thought into action and married a woman? please explain.

[BeeGuy]

I can't believe the number of posters here who chose to be straight.

Be true to yourselves bros.

[Wild&Free]

Lets try and keep the closet talk out of this one ;)

What are you trying to say?

[connexion123]

Sexuality is a choice.

To agree with the above article you'd have to believe darwin, and that I do not. As well, "preconceived notions" are not just that.

Remember you're screwing with religious conviction, and the one thing most "tolerant police" people say is not going along with gay people etc. Is discrimination. It is discrimination to go against people's religious beliefs as well.

So, live and let live but I can believe you are wrong and you can think the same.

[Wild&Free]

Sexuality is a choice.

To agree with the above article you'd have to believe darwin, and that I do not. As well, "preconceived notions" are not just that.

Remember you're screwing with religious conviction, and the one thing most "tolerant police" people say is not going along with gay people etc. Is discrimination. It is discrimination to go against people's religious beliefs as well.

So, live and let live but I can believe you are wrong and you can think the same.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof for some people. To each there own.

[Okotokian]

Don't most men have a wish to be with a couple hot lesbians at some time in their life?


Why would anyone want to be with a couple women who have absolutely no interest in you? ;)

[Wild&Free]

Why would anyone want to be with a couple women who have absolutely no interest in you? ;)

Why are spectator sports so popular you ask?

[Okotokian]

Sexuality is a choice.

To agree with the above article you'd have to believe darwin, and that I do not. As well, "preconceived notions" are not just that.

Remember you're screwing with religious conviction, and the one thing most "tolerant police" people say is not going along with gay people etc. Is discrimination. It is discrimination to go against people's religious beliefs as well.

So, live and let live but I can believe you are wrong and you can think the same.

Oh this is too much. LOL

So you are telling us that you are attracted to both men and women, but you CHOOSE to only be involved with women.

Buddy, you didn't choose to be straight. You're bi. ;)

Most people never had to choose which gender to be attracted to. You are an odd one.

[nof60]

Oh this is too much. LOL

So you are telling us that you are attracted to both men and women, but you CHOOSE to only be involved with women.

Buddy, you didn't choose to be straight. You're bi. ;)

Most people never had to choose which gender to be attracted to. You are an odd one.

just like at The Brick

Bi now...gay later:scared0018:

[nof60]

Sexuality is a choice.

To agree with the above article you'd have to believe darwin, and that I do not. As well, "preconceived notions" are not just that.

Remember you're screwing with religious conviction, and the one thing most "tolerant police" people say is not going along with gay people etc. Is discrimination. It is discrimination to go against people's religious beliefs as well.

So, live and let live but I can believe you are wrong and you can think the same.

Can you please explain to me and the rest of the unwashed masses how my not believing in your fairy tale is discriminating against you? You can believe whatever nonsense you want to. You can donate money to whatever charlatan is offering you a trip to paradise. You can go to church and roll around on the floor with the rest of the nuts. You can argue with fact and replace it with fantasy all you want I really don't care. But just how is what 2 consenting adults do with or to each other impacting your world in any way? Don't wanna be embarrassed by your sweatpants tent during the gay parade then don't go or wear jeans or better yet unleash the inner beast and wear cut off daisy dukes and a leather halter.

You are right we can live and let live and you are free to be a bigot but I don't believe that you are wrong, I know it. You see unlike religion, science does not require your belief in it to exist. Besides, unless you are catholic (and by your statements I don't believe that you are) you are not even a real Christian as in follower of Christ. This is Peter and on this rock I shall build my church. Not this is Martin Luther or Pastor Jamie Coots and on this heretic or snakehandler I shall build my church.

[covey ridge]

Do you find a bag of cash that just fell off a truck as tempting and do you choose not to make off with it? or does money just not do a thing for you? It's a choice. Thinking something and then carrying it out.......hmmmmmmm. Thought put to action = choice.

I do not think this is a good question because I think that many here would never think of making off with the money. Not because they do not like money or because they might get caught but because they never think of taking any thing they have no right to. If you say thought put into action = choice then what is not having the thought in the first place.

[Okotokian]

Do you find a bag of cash that just fell off a truck as tempting and do you choose not to make off with it? or does money just not do a thing for you? It's a choice. Thinking something and then carrying it out.......hmmmmmmm. Thought put to action = choice.

So you are saying you might be tempted, but you know it's wrong, so you don't. I must be weird. I'm not tempted in the least by men. I am tempted by money. THAT is a choice. My sexual preference isn't.

Is your preference for human beings a concious choice? Do you have to think about it? One day did you decide "That's it, sheep are DEFINITELY out!"? Of course not (well, I'm assuming of course not). :)

[covey ridge]

Can you please explain to me and the rest of the unwashed masses how my not believing in your fairy tale is discriminating against you? You can believe whatever nonsense you want to. You can donate money to whatever charlatan is offering you a trip to paradise. You can go to church and roll around on the floor with the rest of the nuts. You can argue with fact and replace it with fantasy all you want I really don't care. But just how is what 2 consenting adults do with or to each other impacting your world in any way? Don't wanna be embarrassed by your sweatpants tent during the gay parade then don't go or wear jeans or better yet unleash the inner beast and wear cut off daisy dukes and a leather halter.

You are right we can live and let live and you are free to be a bigot but I don't believe that you are wrong, I know it. You see unlike religion, science does not require your belief in it to exist. Besides, unless you are catholic (and by your statements I don't believe that you are) you are not even a real Christian as in follower of Christ. This is Peter and on this rock I shall build my church. Not this is Martin Luther or Pastor Jamie Coots and on this heretic or snakehandler I shall build my church.

Hmmmmm? This seems to be a bit of a derail. I thought we just went through all this a couple days ago?

I thought this thread was about sexuality and if specific orientation was a choice or not? I think we should handle the topic without involving religion.

[covey ridge]

So you are saying you might be tempted, but you know it's wrong, so you don't. I must be weird. I'm not tempted in the least by men. I am tempted by money. THAT is a choice. My sexual preference isn't.

Is your preference for human beings a concious choice? Do you have to think about it? One day did you decide "That's it, sheep are DEFINITELY out!"? Of course not (well, I'm assuming of course not). :)

I do not desire donkeys, but I have looked at a few of those big guys with a bit of envy;)

[Sundancefisher]

Sexuality is a choice.

To agree with the above article you'd have to believe darwin, and that I do not. As well, "preconceived notions" are not just that.

Remember you're screwing with religious conviction, and the one thing most "tolerant police" people say is not going along with gay people etc. Is discrimination. It is discrimination to go against people's religious beliefs as well.

So, live and let live but I can believe you are wrong and you can think the same.

Some religions do clash and some more than others. However science has and will continue to alter some churches rigid viewpoints. A easy example is how the church tried valiantly to defend church doctrine of the sun circling the Earth.

It still is hard to believe in any truth of it being choice in light of all the counter evidence. Can you honestly say you have an attraction to the same sex and chose the opposite?

Therefore it is fair and honest and valid for you to say my church says it is wrong and I chose to ignore the evidence and follow my churches instruction on the matter.

I can't argue with you on your spiritual beliefs. I just wish you could also understand the science says differently and therefore I also have a valid reason to not descriminate.

[nof60]

Some religions do clash and some more than others. However science has and will continue to alter some churches rigid viewpoints. A easy example is how the church tried valiantly to defend church doctrine of the sun circling the Earth.

It still is hard to believe in any truth of it being choice in light of all the counter evidence. Can you honestly say you have an attraction to the same sex and chose the opposite?

Therefore it is fair and honest and valid for you to say my church says it is wrong and I chose to ignore the evidence and follow my churches instruction on the matter.

I can't argue with you on your spiritual beliefs. I just wish you could also understand the science says differently and therefore I also have a valid reason to not descriminate.

Please do not make excuses for someones bigoted behavior. It is not valid to say my church says it is wrong so I choose to invalidate someones whole existence and persecute them for something they have no control over. What if his church said black people should be enslaved? Or sick kids should not receive a doctors care? Or we should all kill muslims? Or burn witches? Would this also be ok?

The OPs article was about how gay is not a choice. Neither is ethnicity. And what a preacher says does not make discrimination ok.

[Okotokian]

I do not desire donkeys, but I have looked at a few of those big guys with a bit of envy;)

I wouldn't know. I've never been to Tijuana. :sHa_shakeshout:

[Redfrog]

Don't see why some put so much time and energy into what's up with the gays.... Personally there isn't much that they do that affects my life.

I agree. If the Pride parade wasn't such a gala affair in Bodo, I wouldn't give it a second thought.:)

[slough shark]

I do find it interesting the the entire premise of the article basically argues that EVERYTHING to do with being gay is Nature not Nurture... I was generally under the understanding (based on what the scientific community has told us) that most things are a combination of the 2.

[Pixel Shooter]

think this thread has played out and derailed too many times to count