A question for Electricians

[czechm8]

Hi All,

I hope this works, first image post.

We are buying our first house and took this in the attic during a home inspection of a place we put an offer on last week. Confirmed with a couple electricians that it's a fire/safety hazard and not at all to code.

So we had them write it in that they will fix it and if not we will keep a hold back. Because of the amateur DIY wiring that looks like it was done, we also wrote in that a survey and inspection should be done of all wiring in the house.

Now I'm just worried that we're going to get screwed on the wording here (on what they need to fix), as it has to go into the contract. I guess my question is; If a certified electrician comes in to repair something like this, are they professionally required to bring whatever is repaired up to code?

I hope that makes sense; apologies if not, it's been a long sleepless week.

Also, are there any Calgary-area Electricians on here, or can anybody recommend a good one they have worked with.

http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p510/czech-m8/DSC02918_zps70828fe8.jpg

http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p510/czech-m8/DSC02918_zps70828fe8.jpg

[flyguyd]

Im not an electrician , but that is just plain scary right there. I loath to think of what the rest of it looks like

[honda610]

Yes by law if a electrician touches any work and he leaves it faulty he can be held liable. Any sparky worth his ticket will fix it properly but if there's alot of work like the picture it wont come cheap. Have the wording refrence( All electrical systems in said house to be brought up to cec, provincial standards) good luck ask for refrences lots of fly by night guys in residential be careful. Good luck.

[twofifty]

I don't see any ground wires in there either. Only god knows what's hiding in other dark corners.

Instead of getting into a long description of what the vendors will or won't do and the attendant disputes, why not reduce your offer by x dollars and use that amount to get the work done yourselves on your own schedule. That's presuming your offer was a bit high since you didn't know about the wiring.

[CNP]

Looks like old knob-and-tube married up with modern nm-b wiring. Knob-and-tube did not have a ground wire. No marrettes, no cover plate on the junction box. Knob-and-tube is still considered safe but that box isn't. Have you uncovered any ceramic tubes that contain wires going through joists. If the house was built in the 40's or earlier good chance you have knob-and-tube. I am not an electrician but I have come across this.

[twofifty]

If it were knob & tube, the hot and neutral would not be covered together in a woven cloth outer layer as this wiring is. I think we're looking at 1st gen post K&T wiring.

[kmacisaac]

It's a bit difficult to see exactly what's tied to what in the box but I'd say it a splice box for a lighting circuit that had loomex (the newer white wire) spliced into it for something else. I don't know the style of box, but it looks old enough that it might not contain a ground screw at the bottom. The loomex should be removed and an extension ring added (another octagon box without a bottom and secured with the two screws in opposite corners). An octagon cover should be added as well on top of the extension ring to close things up. I would first recommend finding out what the loomex is supplying power to and if the existing circuit with the older wires can take that existing load on it. If it can handle the extra load then have the loomex reinstalled into one of the free knock outs in the extension ring. If there is no ground wires on the the older wires than it's an older style system that had a two wire conductor without a ground. It is what was done back in the day and it is what it is unless you plan on taking down drywall and rewiring everything to today's standards. I've seen these systems in the past wired to metal plumbing pipes on the end with the switch or plug box. It was done by taking a wire from the ground screw in the plug or switch box and running it to the nearest metal plumbing pipe and securing it with a bonding clamp.
Hope this helps a bit.

[Weedy1]

A little off topic but you should consider a cover your butt clause such as:

From:http://www.remaxwest.com/blog/p/lawyers-approval:-what-clause-to-use


“This Offer is conditional upon the approval of the agreement between the parties by the Buyer’s Solicitor including both the legal terms and the business terms, more particularly the financial terms, time periods, liabilities arising out of this agreement, and any other agreement, undertaking or liability that might arise by reason of the Buyer having entered into this agreement.”

[czechm8]

Wow, thank you for all the great replies.

Yes by law if a electrician touches any work and he leaves it faulty he can be held liable. Any sparky worth his ticket will fix it properly but if there's alot of work like the picture it wont come cheap. Have the wording refrence( All electrical systems in said house to be brought up to cec, provincial standards) good luck ask for refrences lots of fly by night guys in residential be careful. Good luck.

That's exactly what I was looking for. We were debating what wording to add as an amendment for a contract hold back (e.g. do this ___ before we move in or we keep $xxxx so we can get it done ourselves). What they sent was something along the lines of "any issues which are, in the opinion a certified electrician, safety concerns shall be fixed ... ". We wanted to make sure that wouldn't mean they couldn't legally just go and get the 1 box fixed when all the rest of the electrical in the house could be just as dangerous.

Looks like old knob-and-tube married up with modern nm-b wiring. Knob-and-tube did not have a ground wire. No marrettes, no cover plate on the junction box. Knob-and-tube is still considered safe but that box isn't. Have you uncovered any ceramic tubes that contain wires going through joists. If the house was built in the 40's or earlier good chance you have knob-and-tube. I am not an electrician but I have come across this.

It's c. 1949 so not knob and tube, twofifty was bag on, first era post K&T. I was told those are likely tar-impregnated cloth insulated wires. It's also been upgraded to 100A service.

A little off topic but you should consider a cover your butt clause such as:

From:http://www.remaxwest.com/blog/p/lawy...-clause-to-use


“This Offer is conditional upon the approval of the agreement between the parties by the Buyer’s Solicitor including both the legal terms and the business terms, more particularly the financial terms, time periods, liabilities arising out of this agreement, and any other agreement, undertaking or liability that might arise by reason of the Buyer having entered into this agreement.”

Not off topic at all. If they were going to go ahead and fix it (which they wanted to) then that is great. But then the concern was that they may do a minimal job and not address other electrical dangers that may be present considering.

It's a bit difficult to see exactly what's tied to what in the box but I'd say it a splice box for a lighting circuit that had loomex (the newer white wire) spliced into it for something else. I don't know the style of box, but it looks old enough that it might not contain a ground screw at the bottom. The loomex should be removed and an extension ring added (another octagon box without a bottom and secured with the two screws in opposite corners). An octagon cover should be added as well on top of the extension ring to close things up. I would first recommend finding out what the loomex is supplying power to and if the existing circuit with the older wires can take that existing load on it. If it can handle the extra load then have the loomex reinstalled into one of the free knock outs in the extension ring. If there is no ground wires on the the older wires than it's an older style system that had a two wire conductor without a ground. It is what was done back in the day and it is what it is unless you plan on taking down drywall and rewiring everything to today's standards. I've seen these systems in the past wired to metal plumbing pipes on the end with the switch or plug box. It was done by taking a wire from the ground screw in the plug or switch box and running it to the nearest metal plumbing pipe and securing it with a bonding clamp.
Hope this helps a bit.

This helps a lot, thanks! The load test is exactly what other electricians said would need to be done. I was wondering about how the grounding worked for this.

So if they did the load test, and found that the feed wire was indeed over-loaded, does that mean they would need to pull a new higher gauge feed wire up? (it's only a bungalow so they may be able to without taking down any walls). If so, would the new wire have to have a ground to be up to code, and then if the feed wire is grounded would all downstream wires have to be replaced to have a ground as well?

[CaberTosser]

Once can't just pull up a higher gauge wire (such as a 12/2) in place of the current feed. One would generally just run an additional circuit. The new circuit would either then have its own junction box, or it would have to be tied to a linked fuse; this is a safety consideration, so that there aren't redundant feeds supplying a single junction box (say a person isolates a circuit to work in said junction box, but there's still a second live circuit contained therein)


My first house in Mount Pleasant had a similarly ghetto tie-in in the attic, someone had hard-wired in a power bar up there for the purpose of growing a certain kind of herb. I found a few leaves & buds indicating their botanical preferences when I was pulling in new grounded circuits to every room.