AB Parks Consultation; Lakeland PP Backcountry cabins

[Cal Rakach]

As mandated by the Ab Plan for Parks and the Land Use Framework, the Parks Dept is looking for ways to increase recreational opportunities within the Parks system.
The Parks department is proposing back country cabins in the Lakeland Prov Park and looking for input from the outdoors community.
Info and public comment form can be found at
http://www.albertaparks.ca/albertaparksca/about-us/public-consultations/archives/lakeland-provincial-park-backcountry-cabins.aspx
Please take the time to provide your thoughts
Cal

[Bushmonkey]

I thought they tried this BS and was shot down by the public and environmentalists???

[Bushmonkey]

Everyone, even people who don't go to lakeland county should click on that link and submit a request to NOT have those cabins built.

Even if you don't go to lakeland county and those backcountry lakes, if this proposal goes through it will set the standard across the province for BS like this.

For people who've ever bee to lac la biche if you haven't heard the province has already built cabins on Churchill Park right on lac la biche.

[chuck0039]

I think its to late. I remember I was fishing Jackson last year and they were flying in all the materials to build the cabins. They were landing somewhere between Jackson and Kinnard.

[Lakeland Expeditions]

It would be a complete shame if these cabins end up being built in the location proposed location between Jackson and Kinaird Lakes. The backcountry canoe circuit in Lakeland will never be the same if this goes through.

Recommendations to Alberta Parks should be made to have the location of these cabins reconsidered, and moved to one of the other lakes in the rec area like Pinehurst, Touchwood, or Seibert. Let's preserve the only backcountry we have!

[Bushmonkey]

I think its to late. I remember I was fishing Jackson last year and they were flying in all the materials to build the cabins. They were landing somewhere between Jackson and Kinnard.

What I was told by several people involved with the county and fish and game is that yes they brought the wood in by helicopter, but then a lot of people protested it.

So then they air lifted it out.

Then they didn't want to waste the wood so they dropped it off at Chruchhill park and built several cabins in the park.

I've seen the cabins they built first hand. They are NOT cabins. They are nicer then some homes.


I'm telling you, this is WRONG. And its a stepping stone to even worse things. For example it will set a precident to build government cabins in all provincial parks in AB.

It can be stopped. Its still in the stage where you can say your peice.

[timsesink]

Done and done. What a crock. Let's pave paradise and put up a parking lot.

[unclebuck]

The cabins are just north of the boat launch on the causeway. They are short of the park by about a mile, and do not infringe on the park by any stretch of anyone's imagination!! They have been built for the most part for those that do not have the portable equipment or wherewithal to enjoy the island park with their families for a summer or winter weekend. They overlook the lake to the east and Sunset Bay. While quite visible from the road, for the most part are very unobtrusive, and give outside families an opportunity to enjoy the pristine area that we live in and take for granted!!

[Bushmonkey]

The cabins are just north of the boat launch on the causeway. They are short of the park by about a mile, and do not infringe on the park by any stretch of anyone's imagination!! They have been built for the most part for those that do not have the portable equipment or wherewithal to enjoy the island park with their families for a summer or winter weekend. They overlook the lake to the east and Sunset Bay. While quite visible from the road, for the most part are very unobtrusive, and give outside families an opportunity to enjoy the pristine area that we live in and take for granted!!

Its cabins ON provincial park land. end of story.

[unclebuck]

Unless my eyes have deceived me, there is a sign about a mile to the north of where these cabins are that says, "Sir Winston Churchill Provincial Park". Please tell me if I am required to attend an optometrist. Do not get me wrong, I do not agree with what has transpired, but what choice do we have now at this point in time? Needless to say, I did NOT vote for her!!!!

[Bushmonkey]

Unless my eyes have deceived me, there is a sign about a mile to the north of where these cabins are that says "Sir Winston Churchill Provincial Park". Please tell me if I am required to attend an optometrist. Do not get me wrong, I do not agree with what has transpired, but what choice do we have now at this late date, burn them down or what?

I believe all the islands in lac la biche (or the vast majority) are provinicial park.

I was told by some higher up's those cabins at churchhill were built by the provnice on provinail park land. The land might not be sir winston churchill park land, but its still PP.

Nothing we can do about the cabins at the provincial park, but there is time to stop the ones at kinnard.

Your perspective is the ones at churchill don't look to bad. This might be true, but its your perspective. My perspective is that any structure in pp's is gross.

It doesn't matter where or how they errect cabins at Kinnard, they will be discusting in my eyes.

[chuck0039]

What I was told by several people involved with the county and fish and game is that yes they brought the wood in by helicopter, but then a lot of people protested it.

So then they air lifted it out.

Then they didn't want to waste the wood so they dropped it off at Chruchhill park and built several cabins in the park.

I've seen the cabins they built first hand. They are NOT cabins. They are nicer then some homes.


I'm telling you, this is WRONG. And its a stepping stone to even worse things. For example it will set a precident to build government cabins in all provincial parks in AB.

It can be stopped. Its still in the stage where you can say your peice.



Funny they did not think about putting it out for public consultation before spending money on the material, helicopters, and man power to fly the materials in only to remove it all.

[ratty]

Rally the troops! Get friends, family, everyone you know to reply HELL NO to AB Parks proposal to cabins in LLPP. Lets make sure we flood them with opposition. If we don't get the word out to everyone we know I feel like it might not be enough. We saw last year how close we already came to having cabins constructed so we are going to need opposition!

[Bushmonkey]

yup.. put the link on facebook etc.. there is still time to put your thoughts in..

Cabins are in my back yard right now, but it might be in yours next time..

[Segundo]

I think it was 1990 that the Park Rangers began patrolling this newly created Park. Big grand opening ceremony at Touchwood Lake in 91 I believe.

There were maintenance crews, Rangers and People in the head office with years of experience and education.

The vision of a K-country of the north ( minus the mountains and muskeg).

Coincidentally , two young fellows (cousins) from Lac la Biche ( one with a 2 year diploma , the other with an incomplete BA in arts ) were hired seasonally....

And were did the time go?

Some 24 years later , what a jewel of the north it has become.....

Coincidentally , those two cousins are quite embedded in the operations of the park . Quite an accomplishment considering how many other people with education and work ethic came and went over the years....

Little things like flying lumber into the backcountry, and hauling it out with Atv's while the idea of building cabins in our last little bit of backcountry is in who's hands ? Who is responsible ?

I can hardly wait to see what it'll look like in another 20 years.

Outrage over a premiers spending habits was a good start from those who actually care about our provinces future.

Hopefully tax paying, voting Albertans will keep an eye on more civil servants and take a closer look at what goes on and demand accountability.

..... well the long weekend is here, k-country, here I come.................

[Mike_W]

So what are these cabins for? Government employee use? Are they available for public usage? Would there be a fee? First come first serve?

[Albertadiver]

sent in my .2 cents

[Bushmonkey]

So what are these cabins for? Government employee use? Are they available for public usage? Would there be a fee? First come first serve?

Well they are supposed to be for rent for the general public.

But I also heard Allison Redturd stayed in churchill park multiple times last summer.

So one has to think, does she really like lac la biche and area so much that she wants her own personal cabin with full bath/kitchen etc to stay in instead of a trailer?

Or did she like lac la biche so much that she now wants a place to stay in kinnard instead of tents like the rest of us?

I'm going to go out on a line and say MLA's, ministers etc get first dibbs on those cabins and general public fight for the reminaing days.

[greylynx]

Mr. Rakach:

Some of us Albertans already know that the decisions have already been made.

There are a lot of people on this forum who know how the Alberta Government operates.

With all due respect Mr. Rakesh, are your employers trying to get rid of you given the new cuts in the Alberta civil service?

You are dealing with a rather sensitive subject.

[Buckhead]

OMG! They are building some cabins in a provincial park so those people who cannot afford to own their own cabin can enjoy what some others take for granted.

Get serious people.

[Bushmonkey]

OMG! They are building some cabins in a provincial park so those people who cannot afford to own their own cabin can enjoy what some others take for granted.

Get serious people.

Good point.. Thats what rental cabins are for. And there are lots of them already.

But rental cabins belong on private land. Not crown or provinvial park.


For the price of renting a cabin for 5 days you can buy a damn nice big tent, cook stove, sleeping bags for your family. Its not about providing a place for someone to enjoy the outdoors who can't afford it.

[Bushmonkey]

I think it was 1990 that the Park Rangers began patrolling this newly created Park. Big grand opening ceremony at Touchwood Lake in 91 I believe.

There were maintenance crews, Rangers and People in the head office with years of experience and education.

The vision of a K-country of the north ( minus the mountains and muskeg).

Coincidentally , two young fellows (cousins) from Lac la Biche ( one with a 2 year diploma , the other with an incomplete BA in arts ) were hired seasonally....

And were did the time go?

Some 24 years later , what a jewel of the north it has become.....

Coincidentally , those two cousins are quite embedded in the operations of the park . Quite an accomplishment considering how many other people with education and work ethic came and went over the years....

Little things like flying lumber into the backcountry, and hauling it out with Atv's while the idea of building cabins in our last little bit of backcountry is in who's hands ? Who is responsible ?

I can hardly wait to see what it'll look like in another 20 years.

Outrage over a premiers spending habits was a good start from those who actually care about our provinces future.

Hopefully tax paying, voting Albertans will keep an eye on more civil servants and take a closer look at what goes on and demand accountability.

..... well the long weekend is here, k-country, here I come.................


I'm sure you heard of proposals put in by private investors to build hotel/motel at Touchwood lake?? And another private investor who wanted to buy crown land on Square lake and build big condo's..


Both of these things ALMOST happened until public got word and said something.

[Cal Rakach]

You know Greylynx, if you had taken a minute to look up my name in the gov't phone directory you would have found that I'm not there, I don't work for the gov't.
I am a chronic vollunteer that spends way too much of my time and family money to travel all over the province participating in land use planning promoting managed, responsible use of the back country on behalf of the outdoors communty. My specialty is motorized recreation.
Been doing it for almost 25 years now.
Just passing on information, just trying to get you guys engaged...but some days wonder why I bother..
Cal

[Brian Bildson]

Greylynx you're out of order=

Cal Racach has worked relentlessly for fellow Albertan's on access issue for years. I've watched him time after time step up for our rights at a multitude of meetings. I'm proud to call him a friend

AND HE"S ABOUT AS FAR FROM GOVERNMENT AS YOU CAN GET

[coppercarbide]

Man oh man. You'd think they would have stopped after the boondoggle last year.

How in the HELL someone didn't get fired over that show is beyond me. It's appalling that someone could screw up that bad and still have a job, but the fact that they are trying again is absolutely unreal.


Anyway, I sent a letter, I've copied it below for anyone that wants to use it as is, or make any changes you see fit.

Also, here's a list of people that you should also CC your letter to. If you're already sent a letter, PLEASE forward it to these people:

Norbert Raffael - Op Manager, Northeast Division: norbert.raffael@gov.ab.ca
Richard Starke - Minister of Tourism, Parks, and Rec: tpr.minister@gov.ab.ca
Tammy Forbes - Chief of Staff: tammy.forbes@gov.ab.ca
Dana Woodworth - Deputy Minister: dana.woodworth@gov.ab.ca
Alexander Nnamonu - Chief of Staff for ADM: alexander.nnamonu@gov.ab.ca
Graham Statt - ADM Parks Division: graham.statt@gov.ab.ca
NoAnn Kirkland - ADM Tourism Division: joann.kirkland@gov.ab.ca
Dale Schinkel - Director Parks Finance: dale.schinkel@gov.ab.ca
Carolyn Campbell - Alberta Wilderness Association: ccampbell@abwild.ca




Here's my letter:

RE: Lakeland Provincial Park Cabins

Lakeland PP is Alberta's ONLY canoe circuit. Sask and BC have a plethora of options like it, but Alberta has one.

When the park was founded, we all talked about it being the "K-country of the North", bringing a 'motor-free' zone to Northern Alberta, and proving people with a true wilderness experience.

Reading through the plethora of reviews on the canoe circuit, there's a common theme. Everyone is asking for two things: a bit of maintenance, and an enforced 'no motors' restriction. It is fairly telling that many of these reviews are from career journalists with no outdoors experience, and yet they talk about the charm and allure of unspoiled backcountry. In the many dozens of glowing reviews and trip logs for this park, not a single one says that it would be improved with cabins.

The cabins are supposed to provide a revenue stream, but again, I ask you to listen to your users. The lack of an overnight fee is somewhat odd in a park like this. Everyone understands that maintenance and rule enforcement costs money to provide. You have a dedicated user base literally clamouring to pay you money for park access. Please listen to this user base, let us pay for the experience, and lets build this park into what it was always intended to be, a well-maintained, no gas motor, back country wilderness area.

This is an amazing, pristine wilderness park. Please listen to the users of your park. Please don't build the cabins, they will significantly detract from the character that makes this park so special.

[Bushmonkey]

Good points coppercarbide..

If its about generating money, how much revenue could those cabins acutally generate per year? I'm curious to see what they want to charge.

And I agree, I'd very willingly pay a fee to enter the park, stay over night, and or launch a canoe/boat.

PP's shouldn't be scrapping for money with all the government waste of money and with all the crown land use from companies.. Its ridiculous..

[coppercarbide]

Good points coppercarbide..

If its about generating money, how much revenue could those cabins actually generate per year? I'm curious to see what they want to charge.

And I agree, I'd very willingly pay a fee to enter the park, stay over night, and or launch a canoe/boat.

PP's shouldn't be scrapping for money with all the government waste of money and with all the crown land use from companies.. Its ridiculous..

I'm actually going there this weekend, it's such an awesome place and it would be sad to see a destructive change from something like this. Let's look at some numbers.

Baseline is comfort cabins @ Miquelon Lake, I believe those are $90/night (although miquelon cabins are canvas roofed, but quite nice and much closer to the city...) So, June/July/August peak season, say they build the 3 cabins, rented for average of 3 days/week for those three months, and 2 days/week for a 1.5 month shoulder season on each side.

Peak Season: 3 cabins * 3 days/week * 4.3 weeks/month * 3 months * $90 = $10,449
Shoulder Season: 3 cabins * 2 days/week * 4.3 weeks/month * 3 months * 90 = $6,966

Total of $17,415 per year.

Not sure what the cost of building and then MAINTAINING those cabins is, but it's probably not cheap. Let's say the cabin costs $30k each to build (probably conservative?), and the useful life is 10 years. Forget inflation, let's call it $3,000 per year per cabin to build the things.

Maintenance is a wildcard, but they will likely need to be checked once a week and repaired once per year, locked up and opened up, etc. Perhaps $1,500 per year per cabin?

So a ballpark of $4,500 per year per cabin, $13,500 per year for three.

Net is $3,915 per year for the whole operation. For the record, I think this is super optimistic, I'm guessing by the time they get done latrines and maintenance, they'll be costing money for sure.

Now, Lakeland Prov Park sees 3000-6000 people per year in the summer. Somewhere North of 2000 of those people stay multiple nights.

Basically, if you charge everyone who uses the park ONE DOLLAR to enter, you'll be making more money.

Looking at instituting camping fees, call it $5/night (which is CHEAP for how awesome this park is), conservative guess of 2000 people per year staying 1.5 nights on average, you have $15,000, which is DOUBLE the amount of money you make from cabins.


For the record, I'm not against the idea of cabins at all. There should be an opportunity for people who don't want to sleep in a tent to experience nature, nature SHOULD be accessible within reason. Touchwood would be a great place for that, especially since they are already expanding the campground there. The more recreation users we have, the more the land is worth for recreation.

What I am against in the continued march towards the 'lowest common denominator'. Not ALL sites should be used for all things. Quads and backpackers don't get along (I do both), powerboats and wilderness canoe don't get along (I do both of those too).

People who are going to use these cabins will feel like they are "in the wilderness" if they are a few hundred meters away from the campground. Putting it ACTUALLY "in the wilderness" might even scare them off. Put them where they will be used, and where they belong.

[Cal Rakach]

Thx Brian, that means alot to me...and back at ya.

I think Copper has presented a pretty good case and I tend to agree with him.
As this a precedent with implications across the province, I think this requires some critical thinking.
Cal

[Bushmonkey]

excellent points copper..


I wouldn't have such a issue if these cabins were at touchwood camp ground..

I will disagree to your "There should be an opportunity for people who don't want to sleep in a tent to experience nature, nature SHOULD be accessible within reason."

1) I find the statment contradicts itself..

2)allowing people to sleep in tents in the provincial park IS providing reasonable acess to nature. And keep in mind you can haul in any size trailer you want to touchwood. Therefore if you need more than a tent, thats what touchwood camp ground is for.

3) personally, if you don't want to sleep in a tent, then don't.. Stay out or stick to the camp grounds.

[sjd]

I think they should double the size of Lakeland Park and allow a few backcountry cabins.

It's a double-edged sword. Our parks network is so tiny - only 4% of Provincial land it's tough to see any intensified. But we need more people spending time in nature - and if rustic cabins help with this it might actually help the environment.

I'm impressed by the new found conservation ethic on this site, but I'm a bit confused. Logging and oil and gas does 100x more damage to pristine wilderness every day in Alberta.

We've got the balance of conservation and development wrong in Alberta so far and I agree that we need to have a conversation about whether parks are to protect the environment or for people to enjoy nature, or both. Clearly recreation demand isn't being met in Alberta so we need more parks of all types.

[crf250xtom]

I like the idea of rental cabins I may be voting for it.

[kreator]

Places like Lakeland PP near urban centres are pretty rare. Definitely much more rare than lakes with cabins on them. Why do we need cabins at all? I seriously don't get it.

Only a couple more days left to tell these clowns this is a horrible, horrible idea.

http://www.albertaparks.ca/albertaparksca/about-us/public-consultations/archives/lakeland-provincial-park-backcountry-cabins.aspx