Best caliber for deer

[Brad09]

Okay, you guys are probably sick of hearing from me by now, but I've still got nagging questions. Firstly, I work in a sporting goods dept. of a Can. Tire, so I see quite a few hunters coming and going, especially during this season. And since the bug bit me about 2 weeks ago, and I've decided to give it a go, I've picked the brain of every hunter that comes in. Right now, I haven't asked about techniques and great areas for a couple of reasons. Seems to me that I actually need to go out hunting to fully appreciate the best techniques, and that nobody wants to give up their prized spot lest I go out there and (doubtful though it may be) steal their buck. Therefore, I've been keeping to questions about rifles.

Now, when I ask what the best all-round caliber is for North American hunting(no trips to Africa in my next 10 years), ninety-nine percent of guys tell me that a 30-06 Springfield is good from everything from white-tails and mules all the way up to monster moose. However, when I ask what the best caliber for deer is, I get a few different responses. Lots of people seem to say that .270 Winchester is a safe caliber, and good for pretty long ranges and up close. However, I had a pair of guys in the other day, older guys and clearly grizzled veterans, and they told me that they wouldn't even think of shooting a deer with anything less than a 7mm Remington Magnum. Now, a friend of mine told me that a 7mm Mag kicks like a mule. When I told these guys this, both of them smirked, and one of them looked at me and said, "You're a big boy, you can handle it." And another guy I know, an Army vet and a former hunter, was telling me that a 7mm Mag was a good way to wreck the meat and rip a perfectly good Bambi to ribbons.

Now, for some reason, speaking to these 2 guys has stuck in my mind. So, there are two questions that come to mind. Firstly, myself, at a tender 22 years of age and perhaps having put 20-30 rounds through the barrel of a .22in my life, wonders what the kick of a 7mm Mag is like. And secondly, I'm curious to know what everyone here prefers for white-tailed and mule deer. When I look at hunting elk and pronghorn later on down the road, I'll look at buying a gun specifically for shooting them.

In reading several forums similar to this conversation, I seem to hear a lot of comments to the effect of, "it doesn't matter what caliber you shoot, it matters how you shoot it." And really, it makes perfect sense to me. But at this point, I need a starting point. I'm wondering if perhaps it's more about your personality, and that guys that grow up firing big Magnum calibers are more apt to shoot them successfully on all game, or if it's a general consensus that when you shoot little Bambi with a Magnum cannon that you're asking for confetti no matter what, and some guys just get lucky. I guess it boils down to whether or not specific calibers are meant for specific game, or if it's all just guesswork and opinions, and when you get good at shooting a specific caliber, you should just stick with it no matter what you hunt(as long as you don't chase moose with a .243).

Please offer your opinions.

Brad

[jasonburrows]

Doesnt matter what you shoot, if you make a proper broadside shot through the lungs you're only gonna wreck a few ribs, if you make a bad shot and hit the animal in the front or hind quarters with a magnum rifle youre gonna make hamburger, stick with the 270 winchester its a good first gun especially since you dont have any experience shooting you want to practice shooting and not be afraid of recoil,

[Jason Balesdent]

Caliber only really comes into question when you start after much larger game. The best rifle / caliber you can hunt deer with is the rifle that fits you well and the caliber you can shoot accurately over and over again. For whitetail anything from the .243 and up is enough as long as you put the shot where it needs to be. Try to find someone who owns a few different calibers that will go to the range with you for a day, try out a few and see what you can shoot comfortably and go from there.

[bs'er]

Caliber only really comes into question when you start after much larger game. The best rifle / caliber you can hunt deer with is the rifle that fits you well and the caliber you can shoot accurately over and over again. For whitetail anything from the .243 and up is enough as long as you put the shot where it needs to be. Try to find someone who owns a few different calibers that will go to the range with you for a day, try out a few and see what you can shoot comfortably and go from there.
2X have to agree well said when i started i had a 303 cal first 5 years then a 7mm next 3year's ,308cal the next 5years i now shoot a 270 cal for the last 14 years will never need another gun ever.Hope you find what you are looking for .:) ps.as for tearing up meat with different cals that will vary from one hunter to the next.

[Leverboy]

I had a pair of guys in the other day, older guys and clearly grizzled veterans, and they told me that they wouldn't even think of shooting a deer with anything less than a 7mm Remington Magnum.

..............:rolleye2:veterans with no brains. A .25-06, .308, .30-.30, 270 are all calibers i have seen absolutley level good sized deer. A 7mm rem mag as a minimum???? Ha ha thats alot of needless powder for a friggen deer.:rolleye2:

[Dick284]

Depends.

What style of hunting do for see your self doing?
close cover hunting will move you towards light handy carbine type rifles in calibers which produce moderate muzzle velocities, with mid to heavy weight bullets.

Open country will move one towards longer barrels and faster velocity cartridges with lighter weight bullets.

Now if you are like 90% of all the Alberta hunters out there, your primary quary will be deer, with and elk or a moose thrown in on a 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 year rotation.

If you hunt a mixed bag of style, sometimes skulking through the alders, while other times over looking long cutlines, or hay fields, certain options for calibers really stand out in my mind.

A classic 270Win rifle wilth a 22" bbl.
A 7mm-08 rifle with a 22" bbl.
A 308Win rifle with a 22" bbl, or maybe even a 20-18.5" bbl.
Go with a varible power scope like a 2.5-10, 2-7, easing away from a 3-9 if tight quarter stuff is too often attempted.

All the hype about 30 cal and larger is exactly that hype, a well constructed 130 or 140gr bullet of 0.277" to 0.284" placed where it belongs will put any moose or elk on the deck if broadside shots are maintained, and sub 300yd ranges observed.


There is no need for a long barreled magnum especially for a beginner.

Good luck.

[Leverboy]

My Savage in .30-06 for open country and my .30-.30 Trapper with a 16" barrell for close cover is all the battery i need. Two good rifles that cover whatever situation from deer to moose. A 7mm Remn mag as a minimum for deer is the stupidest thing i have heard today.

.................I wouldn't argue with Dick's assesment. Those are great picks as good all around guns and calibers no matter the terrain. The 7mm-08 is a sweet round with hardly any recoil and a decent flat shooter as well.

[raised by wolves]

There are so many to choose from.

My advice to a buddy of mine, also new to hunting was to pick from 270Win, 30-06, or 308Win. I suggested these 3 only because they are all very popular and probably account for half or maybe as much as two thirds of the rifles used for hunting. Another reason for suggesting these 3 cartridges was the availability of ammo at any sporting goods retailoers or other shops like CDN Tire, Wal Mart, some hardware shops, and even gas stations located in hunting country.

All 3 will knock down any animal on the continent and have done so for many years.

30-06 - A classic. Wide variety of bullet weights to choose from. Probably the most popular of the 3. Some models may give a bit of kick but even this is relatively minor compared to some of the popular magnums out there. I shoot a lightweight 30-06 that does not seem to have any recoil.

270 Win - Always mentioned after someone suggests the 30-06. A bit lighter recoil. Flat shooter, great for open country. Of the 3 choices, this is my personal favourite for deer and the occassional elk. Limited only be the selection and availability of bullet weight.

308 Win - Low recoil and a good game stopper. One of the most popular for long range shooting. Fits into a short action receiver so the overall weight of the rifle can be reduced.

There are many great cartridges/rifle combinations.

[jasonburrows]

I'm sure the old farts were just teasing him

[Leverboy]

I'm sure the old farts were just teasing him

I sure hope so!!!!!!

[Pathfinder76]

Today's bullets make shooting almost anything within reason affective on all but the largest of North America's big game animals. I've used magnum 375's, 338's, 300's, 7MM's and don't have a single "magnum" in the safe today. My all time favorite big game round is the 280 rem, but I have taken a bunch with the 308 and 30-06. I now shoot the 280 AI almost exclusively for big game. I've also found that my longer range open country rifles work just as well in close.

For your situation I'd look no further than a Remington LH SPS youth in 7mm-08 with eigther a Leupold VX III 3.5-10X40 or Leupold FX II 6X36 in Talley LW rings. The above combination will last a lifetime, is easily upgradeable, and with good bullets will kill everything you wish to hunt with it here in Alberta.

Chuck

[Copidosoma]

Deer are NOT hard to kill.

Get a rifle you can shoot well. Practice until you know exactly where the bullet will be at any reasonable distance. Go get 'em.

I got a .308. If I was only hunting deer I might look at a 7mm-08 or a 270. But I don't really think the deer would be able to tell the difference. I Like the .308 alot. Lots of punch for deer (can even handle moose at "normal" ranges). Cheap to shoot. Easy on the shoulder. Not going to win any popularity contests (especially with those who are *ahem* compensating for something). I'd love to have one of my .338 win mags back (sold them), I'd love to have a .375H&H ruger MK2 (heck, I'd looove to have the same in .416 rigby). Those would be for thrills. Totally unnecessary and I can think of much better places to waste my money.

Seriously, don't get too hung up on the gear.



p.s.
You'd probably be surprised how many people will be willing to give you good locations to hunt.

[Leverboy]

One thing about the internet and all these discussion forums, is it has made it harder for the rookie to make a decision as there is just too much discussion and it clouds everything. Like the last poster said, don't get too hung up on the gear. A bullet in the heart is a bullet in the heart. Buy a rifle and caliber that will enable you to confidentally shoot it and place that pill in the vitals everytime under any condition.

[depopulator]

All the hype about 30 cal and larger is exactly that hype, a well constructed 130 or 140gr bullet of 0.277" to 0.284" placed where it belongs will put any moose or elk on the deck if broadside shots are maintained, and sub 300yd ranges observed.


Except when the angle is not perfectly broadside and/or the animal is farther than 300 yards ?

For example, I had a small window of opportunity at my 2008 bull elk at 380+ yards, quartering and moving away. I had all the confidence in my 300 RUM to make 3 quick shots, hitting him on the 2nd and 3rd shot. With a 270, 7-08, etc. I would have passed the shot opportunity for sure. Instead I have a freezer full of meat and my best bull elk to-date on my wall. No hype, just the utility of a magnum in the real world of hunting.

[depopulator]

But I do agree on the point that there is no need for a long barreled magnum for a beginner, especially if only deer is on the menu.

[ctd]

.172" - .17 HMR
.223" - .22 Short, Long, Long Rifle
.224" - .22 WMR, .222 Remington, .223 Remington, .22-250 Varminter, .223 WSSM
.243" - .243 Winchester, 6mm Remington, .243 WSSM, .240 Wby. Mag.
.257" - .25-06, .257 Wby. Mag.
.264" - 6.5x55, .260 Remington, .264 Win. Mag.
.277" - .270 Winchester, .270 WSM, .270 Wby. Mag.
.284" - 7mm-08 Remington, 7x57 Mauser, .280 Remington, 7mm Mag. (all)
.308" - .30 Carbine, .30-30, .300 Savage, .308 Winchester, .30-06, .300 Mag. (all)
.311" - 7.62x39 Soviet, .303 British
.321" - .32 Winchester Special
.323" - 8x57JS Mauser
.338" - .338-57 O'Connor, .338 Mag. (all), .340 Wby. Mag.
.358" - .357 Magnum, .35 Remington, .35 Whelen, .350 Rem. Mag.
.375" - .375 Mag. (all), .378 Wby. Mag.
.416" - .416 Rigby, .416 Rem. Mag., .416 Wby. Mag.
.429" - .44 Rem. Mag., .444 Marlin
.458" - .45-70, .450 Marlin, .458 Win. Mag., .460 Wby. Mag.


What I gather from these measurements is that 7mm is actually a smaller bullet then what most on here seem to impart. The 7mm is actually a smaller projectile then lets say the famed 30-06 or 30-30 that lots on here recommend.

The 7mm gets a poor rating because fewer use the rifle, not because they hate it. Because they grew up on the 30-30 or 30-06.

A 7 mm in the same grain will do the same or less damage then a 30-06 or a 30-30 in the same grain.

They all make small entry holes and then bigger exit holes then mess things up inside, how big of an entry and how big of an exit hole along with internal damge depends on the bullet type itself. (fast, slow, expanding)
Biggest thing you want to do is try and find some one with each of the rifles you like the look of, and in the calibers you like. Then go out and shoot the different calibers and see which one suits you better. Also take a look at the price of the ammunition, 30-30 and 30-06 is generally cheaper then 7mm is.
Because they are more popular.

Working at CT gives you a chance maybe to examine the different types of rifles you sell and see which ones are more popular. Chatting with your customers can result in mmany different results but at the end of the day whcih ever one is most popular is probelly a safe bet.

Good luck

[MountainTi]

Deer are NOT hard to kill.

Get a rifle you can shoot well. Practice until you know exactly where the bullet will be at any reasonable distance. Go get 'em.




.

:lol:Deer aren't hard to kill? Not sure how many deer you have shot, but come on. Hit any animal with a small caliber rifle in the heart or lungs and yeah, they die easy. If you have made shots like this on all the animals you have taken, then good on ya for making clean shots everytime, but unfortunately this isn't a perfect world and the odd bad shot is made, and when one is made, deer don't die easy. Nor do elk, mooose, ect.... I very much agree that a small caliber gun is a more accurate gun in many hands as some can't handle the heavier recoil, and if you are one that can't handle the recoil then it is best to shoot something you can handle. If you are capable of shooting a magnum....why not. Sounds like most here only take broadside shots at 200 yds or so, and make a heart shot every time, but in the off chance you don't make that "perfect" shot a heavier chunk of lead at high velocities is gonna be far more beneficial.

[Dick284]

Except when the angle is not perfectly broadside and/or the animal is farther than 300 yards ?

For example, I had a small window of opportunity at my 2008 bull elk at 380+ yards, quartering and moving away. I had all the confidence in my 300 RUM to make 3 quick shots, hitting him on the 2nd and 3rd shot. With a 270, 7-08, etc. I would have passed the shot opportunity for sure. Instead I have a freezer full of meat and my best bull elk to-date on my wall. No hype, just the utility of a magnum in the real world of hunting.

So explain all the moose elk and deer killed with 130gr. Partitions in a 270Win?(ask Rugersingle)

Also explain how I dumped a moose at spot on 300yds quartering away breaking the off side shoulder, with nothing more than a 25'06 and a 100gr. Partition.(tipped over on the spot)

Explain how I broke both front shoulders at 255yds on a bull elk with the same load in a 25'06

Perhaps the choice of bullets plays a very large part in providing penetration, on poor angle shots.

Perhaps taking low percentage shots for a neophyte is not a thing to advocate.

Perhaps allowing a neophyte shooter to become proficent enough of a shot without worrying about excessive recoil is a more prudent course of action to take.

[depopulator]

So explain all the moose elk and deer killed with 130gr. Partitions in a 270Win?(ask Rugersingle)

Also explain how I dumped a moose at spot on 300yds quartering away breaking the off side shoulder, with nothing more than a 25'06 and a 100gr. Partition.(tipped over on the spot)

Explain how I broke both front shoulders at 255yds on a bull elk with the same load in a 25'06

Perhaps the choice of bullets plays a very large part in providing penetration, on poor angle shots.

Perhaps taking low percentage shots for a neophyte is not a thing to advocate.

Perhaps allowing a neophyte shooter to become proficent enough of a shot without worrying about excessive recoil is a more prudent course of action to take.

No need to explain - they work. I could also give you just as many examples where standard cartridges failed and magnums got the job done, but I digress. I only intended to provide a real world scenario where a mag was more practical and appropriate than "hype", as you put it.

As far as "taking a low percentage shot.." I suppose that really depends on what your shooting;)

And like I said, a mag is probably not the right choice for a beginner.

[turnandburn]

Reading all of these responses, being a beginer myself, i can see how he is confused. Lots to choose from. And all these responses are not making me feel to good about using my 243:o I've been told by lots of guys i know that the 243 is a real good deer only gun. Just what Brad is looking for, a good deer gun. Why hasn't anyone brought up the 243? Is it only good at long distances and crap close ranges?

[graham1]

If I'm hunting deer in the open prairie I'll use my 7mm and if I'm in the bush I'll use my marlin 30-30. I love my 7mm but I'm sure I've never used it in a situation that a 25-06 or a 270 wouldn't have done the job. Ballistically the 7mm is better that the other calibers I've mentioned but the 25-06 or the 270 will take deer out to 250yds fine. So will dozens of other cartridges. It's personal preference!

Good luck you can't hardly go wrong with anything from the 243 to the 30-06 and anything in between. They will all take at least deer size game with proper bullet placement.
let us know what you decide.

[Pathfinder76]

Except when the angle is not perfectly broadside and/or the animal is farther than 300 yards ?

For example, I had a small window of opportunity at my 2008 bull elk at 380+ yards, quartering and moving away. I had all the confidence in my 300 RUM to make 3 quick shots, hitting him on the 2nd and 3rd shot. With a 270, 7-08, etc. I would have passed the shot opportunity for sure. Instead I have a freezer full of meat and my best bull elk to-date on my wall. No hype, just the utility of a magnum in the real world of hunting.

With today's selection of bullets shot angle is relatively moot. With most any chambering.

[TC7]

I have used the 6mm ,.243,270,308,and everything has died that I have shot with them . Currently I am working with a 300 wm which seems to much for my blood. Shot placement is critical , which also ties into your ability to handle recoil .Now what I mean by that is if your afraid of the recoil you will never be accurate. Now that being said my father has used a 6mm to kill everything from bears to moose . Currently in other provinces 223 is being used to kill deer and bears . I believe it is more about where you put the bullet then what the bullet was shot from. Dead is dead . I personally prefer the 308 over everything .

[LongDraw]

Any cartridge with a .284 bore is the best for deer.

OK, you can shut this thread down now ;)

[ABDUKNUT]

For hunting whitetails in open country, nothing beats a .338-378 WBY. A great combination of knock-down power, and flat trajectory.

For 'bush' hunting, I'd personally go with a .458 Win Mag and 900g solids, since they will shoot right through a tree, and still kill a deer standing behind it.

Pick up some 5" magnum shotshells (for your 10 gauge) loaded with #4 Buck (steel) and you're good to go for ducks and grouse, too.

Seriously, good deer guns start with the 6mm's and peak around the 7mm-08 and .270 Winchester. Nothing wrong with a .308 or .30-06 either.

[Copidosoma]

:lol:Deer aren't hard to kill? Not sure how many deer you have shot, but come on. Hit any animal with a small caliber rifle in the heart or lungs and yeah, they die easy. If you have made shots like this on all the animals you have taken, then good on ya for making clean shots everytime, but unfortunately this isn't a perfect world and the odd bad shot is made, and when one is made, deer don't die easy. Nor do elk, mooose, ect.... I very much agree that a small caliber gun is a more accurate gun in many hands as some can't handle the heavier recoil, and if you are one that can't handle the recoil then it is best to shoot something you can handle. If you are capable of shooting a magnum....why not. Sounds like most here only take broadside shots at 200 yds or so, and make a heart shot every time, but in the off chance you don't make that "perfect" shot a heavier chunk of lead at high velocities is gonna be far more beneficial.

I personally haven't shot alot of deer but I'll stand by my comment. Shoot a deer in the back leg with a .458 win mag and it isn't going to die quickly either. I think that alot of people buy a magnum with the idea that they can shoot through an animal from any angle, bashing through bone, muscle, everything to hit the vitals. I suspect that these are the same people who are overconfident with their shots (too far away or too much mass in the way of the vitals) and end up botching shots. I'll take a lower powered rifle that I can shoot well and know exactly where the bullet is going to hit (as far as is possible) with the self imposed restriction that I have to have a clear shot at the vitals than a howitzer that is going to wreck a huge pile of meat in the process.

A "beginner" should be a bit modest until he/she knows what is reasonable IMO. No need to get magnumitis as a crutch for a lack of attention to other aspects of hunting.

7mm-08 or something in that range will keep you perfectly happy for deer.

[Battery]

personally i use a .270, and i wouldnt be too worried about the recoil on the 7mm, my dads sako 7mm has almost the same as my .270 he says because it is a heavier gun. a couple guys i know also swear by the 6mm, not a big caliber but will do the trick for deer as stated if you hit the right spot.

[FishBrain]

new this year, I went with the 30-06. Will take down anything in Canada. Decent kick but not to bad that you are afraid to shoot it.
Good luck on your choice, these fellows here know what they are talking about.

[Leverboy]

Why hasn't anyone brought up the 243? Is it only good at long distances and crap close ranges?


Actually its because a .243 being a small .24 cal bullet, lends itself to being best used by experienced riflemen. There is no room for error with such a small bullet and should be used in the hands of experienced rifleman. My father in law shoots all the mags and various other .30 cal rifles. When deer hunting he reaches for his tiny 6mm which for all intensive purposes is the same as the .243 Winchester with a bit more case capacity. He picks his shots with experienced precision. He loves the tiny handy Remington Mohawk this caliber comes in as well as the low report.

[Okotokian]

As far as "taking a low percentage shot.." I suppose that really depends on what your shooting;)

.

That is what makes me wonder. Is there any shot you wouldn't take with a .270 in your hands that you would if you were holding a .300 WM or something even larger? Odd angle at 350 yards or something? If the answer is yes, then I'd rather have the larger caliber gun IF (and I mean IF) I could comfortably handle the recoil. I bought a .270 because I was a new shooter worried about recoil. But I found it was (to me, at 6'3" and 220 lbs) negligible. I can shoot that thing 50+ shots at the range with no discomfort. I believe I could handle something heavier, and with that realization, would probably have gotten a 30-06, .308, or something heavier to increase the versatility.

[Homesteader]

That is what makes me wonder. Is there any shot you wouldn't take with a .270 in your hands that you would if you were holding a .300 WM or something even larger? Odd angle at 350 yards or something? If the answer is yes, then I'd rather have the larger caliber gun IF (and I mean IF) I could comfortably handle the recoil. I bought a .270 because I was a new shooter worried about recoil. But I found it was (to me, at 6'3" and 220 lbs) negligible. I can shoot that thing 50+ shots at the range with no discomfort. I believe I could handle something heavier, and with that realization, would probably have gotten a 30-06, .308, or something heavier to increase the versatility.

I can't see that a 300 mag would make me anymore comfortable for shooting deer vs a 270 winchester. Deer just aren't that big or tough, I haven't shot at distances past 300yds on big game, but I would say that a 270 with the right bullet will smoke any deer right out to 5-600yds, if the shooter can put it in the vitals.

[gitrdun]

Brad, I don't know you, but I already like you. In your post, you've admitted to being a green horn who's been put into a retail position and you openly admit to lacking knowledge to pass on to your clients. Good for you bud. I'd love to reply but that could be so lenghty that I couldn't even imagine spending so much time typing. So, instead I'll invite you to come shooting with me, you can sample my arsenal and we can talk ..... all day if you like. PM me if you're interested, I'm not that far from you and I have a 500 yd shooting range. :D

[MountainTi]

I personally haven't shot alot of deer but I'll stand by my comment. Shoot a deer in the back leg with a .458 win mag and it isn't going to die quickly either. I think that alot of people buy a magnum with the idea that they can shoot through an animal from any angle, bashing through bone, muscle, everything to hit the vitals. I suspect that these are the same people who are overconfident with their shots (too far away or too much mass in the way of the vitals) and end up botching shots. I'll take a lower powered rifle that I can shoot well and know exactly where the bullet is going to hit (as far as is possible) with the self imposed restriction that I have to have a clear shot at the vitals than a howitzer that is going to wreck a huge pile of meat in the process.

.
If all deer stood broadside at 100 yds. there would be nothing wrong with a smaller caliber rifle, but in the life of hunting trophy size animals, it ain't always gonna work out like that, Would be nice, but just isn't. Big difference between doe hunters and trophy hunters I guess :lol:

[gitrdun]

If all deer stood broadside at 100 yds. there would be nothing wrong with a smaller caliber rifle, but in the life of hunting trophy size animals, it ain't always gonna work out like that, Would be nice, but just isn't. Big difference between doe hunters and trophy hunters I guess :lol:

I hunt grain fed does with the same rifle that I hunt trophy bucks with. What's the difference? Dead is dead? no? I've hunted deer and successfuly harvested them with .243 to .375H&H . Shot placement is worthier conversation than caliber selection IMHO.

[MountainTi]

I hunt grain fed does with the same rifle that I hunt trophy bucks with. What's the difference? Dead is dead? no? I've hunted deer and successfuly harvested them with .243 to .375H&H . Shot placement is worthier conversation than caliber selection IMHO.

Read back a post or two, you will see that I very much agree with proper shot placement. If you can make a heart shot consistently, then a .22 is all you really need (if legal). Unfortunately, not everyone makes the "perfect" shot everytime like many on this thread seem to make each and every time. If in an unfortunate instance you happened to hit a deer to far back (say in the hindquarters), tell me, what would you rather me shooting? .243 or .375? .375 would sound like the more ethical choice to me.

[gitrdun]

Read back a post or two, you will see that I very much agree with proper shot placement. If you can make a heart shot consistently, then a .22 is all you really need (if legal). Unfortunately, not everyone makes the "perfect" shot everytime like many on this thread seem to make each and every time. If in an unfortunate instance you happened to hit a deer to far back (say in the hindquarters), tell me, what would you rather me shooting? .243 or .375? .375 would sound like the more ethical choice to me.

Sorry, but I'm not sure what your rebutal is all about as we both seem to be in agreement. Yeah. shot placement is primary, but please....let's not go into the .22 calibers whether "ethical" or "legal", we both know it's too stupid!

[whitetailhntr]

Read back a post or two, you will see that I very much agree with proper shot placement. If you can make a heart shot consistently, then a .22 is all you really need (if legal). Unfortunately, not everyone makes the "perfect" shot everytime like many on this thread seem to make each and every time. If in an unfortunate instance you happened to hit a deer to far back (say in the hindquarters), tell me, what would you rather me shooting? .243 or .375? .375 would sound like the more ethical choice to me.

A deer hit in the hindquarters is a wounded deer, magnum or not!nothing ethical about shooting a deer in the ass.Standard calibers such as .243,.270 and such are easier to shoot than magnums....that is fact.People will shoot better with something they can handle with confidence....also a fact.Think before you type!

[MountainTi]

A deer hit in the hindquarters is a wounded deer, magnum or not!nothing ethical about shooting a deer in the ass.Standard calibers such as .243,.270 and such are easier to shoot than magnums....that is fact.People will shoot better with something they can handle with confidence....also a fact.Think before you type!

Know many people that make a bad shot on an animal on purpose (pretty sure most are accidental)? Can't say I know any that do, and if I did, I wouldn't be hunting with them for long as that would definately be unethical. People will shoot better with something they can handle with confidence....very much fact. Calibers such as .243, .270 are easier to shoot than magnums.....fact for you? Maybe so, but not fact for everybody. So ditto there buddy, think before you type!

[gitrdun]

Yet another simple question turned into a basic argument between a couple of simpletons. :(

[Jeromeo]

Yet another simple question turned into a basic argument between a couple of simpletons. :(

I was just going to say the same thing. online arguments are like the special olympics, no matter if you win you're still R E T A R D E D

A little politically incorrect but you get the picture.

[whitetailhntr]

i am stating that standard calibers are easier to shoot due to less recoil.that is a fact.tolerance of recoil is a personal issue, i will agree with you on that.I also agree that poor shots are accidental but reducing the risk of accidents is ethical in my opinion.Ethics are are opinions and we all have our own. not trying to ruffle your feathers.if it works for you great but for a novice shooter,which is the point of this thread,i think a standard caliber is a good start and he can go from there if he so chooses to.

[gitrdun]

Look you guys...how in the heck do you turn this into a fight, let's help this young buck OK. :)

[Shmag]

Hey, i read all the reply's and can't beleive nobody has mentioned the 264 Win mag. It was my first rifle which i only hunted deer, it was a great flat shooter and you can hop up the speed pretty good on reloads. The only problem i found was the availability of shells as i was living in a small town, and there were no sporting goods store's within an hour away. I am now shooting a 7 mm mag. As far as kick goes, you only feel it on the range after shooting a dozen rounds or so. When you are shooting at an animal, there is way to adrenalin in your body, when you pull the trigger it won't even faze you. I did love the 264 win mag for deer, however the 270, 7mm, 30-06 are all good. You do need to ask yourself whether you will be going after bush-bucks or open shoots!!! Hope this helps.

[Brad09]

Shmag,

The way I figure it, most of my shooting will be fairly open, although I'm sure that I'll make more than one attempt at critters hiding in the brush. I appreciate the suggestion of a new caliber. However, the problem I'm having with it is that .264 Winchester Magnum cartridges, as you said, are a little less common. I'd like to keep my first rifle in a caliber that is widely available, just so I can experiment with several different types of ammunition, for both hunting and curiosity purposes. I've realized in the last 24 hours that not only do I want to learn to hunt, and hunt well, but 15 or 20 years down the road, when I've got some experience, and I encounter a new hunter, I want to be able to share as much information as I can. I find that the people on this site are trying to be helpful, first and foremost, and that means something.

I'll use an example. I am a reptile keeper as a hobby, and have been for a lot of years. And, being part of a misunderstood group there, I've not only done what I can to advance my knowledge of reptile keeping, but I also feel that being part of that social community, it's my responsibility to project a positive image so that others may begin to accept that as a hobby. As far as killing the stereotypical blood-hungry hunter image the general public seems to see, correctly or not, I feel that if I take up hunting as a sport, it's part of my responsibility to do what I can to change how people see hunters. For the life of me, I can't remember who posted in one of my threads, but his signature read "True hunters are conservationists". And I think that, for the large part, that's true.

Brad

[uglyelk2]

I suspect more deer have been harvested with 303 british and 30/30 than any other caliber in the past 50 years.

Don't see a reason for it to stop working.

[uglyelk2]

I can't remember who posted in one of my threads, but his signature read "True hunters are conservationists". And I think that, for the large part, that's true.

Bradthe bumper sticker on my truck reads,

"Kids who Hunt Trap and Fish
Don't mug little old Ladies"

I think you understand, those who fail to manage the resources they depend upon starve to death. Few of us today depend upon these resources for survival, yet if we fail to manage them responsibly they will be gone. It is a huge responsibility.

Welcome to the forums btw I've been enjoying your excellent questions.

[Jeromeo]

I suspect more deer have been harvested with 303 british and 30/30 than any other caliber in the past 50 years.

Don't see a reason for it to stop working.

That's true. I've got an .303 brit and it's a "blast" to shoot.:D great deer gun as well.

[SkytopBrewster]

Important part of our history it is, everyone should Have a Lee Enfield in the case

[Homesteader]

From everything you listed, I'd still say there is more than one option but, there really is only one at the top of the list.

1) You want a "caliber" for deer primarily.

2) Most of your shooting will be in the open.

3) You want a cartridge that is commonly available.

4) You are a new shooter who is unsure of what you will be willing to accept as far as recoil goes.

Answer) If you're buying a new to you rifle then, 270 Winchester, end of discussion. If somebody gives you a rifle take whatever in a cartridge that has been discussed, and use it.

For what it's worth in your poll, out of what you listed, I chose the 7-08, but I'm a gunnut and enjoy reloading.

Good luck.

P.S. Do you really think you need the 338 Lapua in your poll?

[Leverboy]

Hey, i read all the reply's and can't beleive nobody has mentioned the 264 Win mag

...............current ammo and die sales should dictate why this dinosaur wasn't mentioned.

[SkytopBrewster]

Doesnt matter what you shoot, if you make a proper broadside shot through the lungs you're only gonna wreck a few ribs, if you make a bad shot and hit the animal in the front or hind quarters with a magnum rifle youre gonna make hamburger, stick with the 270 winchester its a good first gun especially since you dont have any experience shooting you want to practice shooting and not be afraid of recoil,


All that arguing to get back to the first response to his question.:evilgrin:

[Leverboy]

For what it's worth in your poll, out of what you listed, I chose the 7-08, but I'm a gunnut and enjoy reloading.


............................probably one of the sweetest little rounds that can do it all out to 300 yards be it deer, moose or elk with minimal powder and recoil. All in a nice short action package. There is just something about that .284 bullet stuffed in a .308 winchester case that does it for me. But then again here i am hunting again with a .30-06:huh::D

[Copidosoma]

[QUOTE=MountainTi;208708 If in an unfortunate instance you happened to hit a deer to far back (say in the hindquarters), tell me, what would you rather me shooting? .243 or .375? .375 would sound like the more ethical choice to me.[/QUOTE]

If I'm that bad of a shot or shooting beyond what I'm capable of I shouldn't be shooting. .50 BMG isn't going to save you from taking a shot you shouldn't. ;)

I don't hunt for trophies so if I see "the buck of a lifetime" I'll probably take a shot at it but if I have to go through the entire deer to hit the vitals I'll wait. If the shot doesn't present then it doesn't. I guess I'm just working on a different value set.:rolleyes:

Beginner hunter. Not addicted to antlers. Willing to not shoot every deer he sees. 7mm-08, .308, .270. Any of them is all you will likely ever need. 'nuff said.

[Cooeylover]

I aint read all the posts but i think a .308 or 30-06 would be great guns, IMHO. Both have a huge range of ammo selections from lightweight to heavey weight. I think ive seen 30-06 in 220grain.
With .308 rounds you can get battle packs of surplus ammo and shoot it for a reasonable price all year. Imagine how good of a shot you would be, and how comfortable you would get, if ya shot that thing on a regualr basis. SA_WEET! keeping in mind that hunting rounds are different than milsurp and will shoot different.
Just dont get a big gun thinking "if i dont hit it good, this big caliber will knock 'er down anyways".
Huge calibers do not substitute for poor shot placement.:(
I hunt with a no1 mk3 lee enfield in >303 with open sights, so that shows my, um, "practicallity" :D
Have fun and give'er!

[stand junkie]

I have got just about 1300"s of horn (gross scored) 3 mule and 6 whitetails in the last 8 years of hunting with my tika 25-06. Last year I took out my 300 ultra mag for my mule buck got cocky with the big gun syndrome and ended up losing a 200 class deer over it (bad shot stupid angle stupid me). I have found that any gun that you shoot alot and get accustome to will kill any thing you want to. I shoot alot of shells every year and shoot all of my guns well but I will always shoot a small cal with less recoil for deer just take the time to make a good shot

[Sputnik]

Brad,

Started Big Game hunting with a .303 LE
Moved to a .308 Rem 700 VLS
Have a .243 on order for next year (and beyond).
Hunting this year with a 20 Ga & slugs.

As long as you place the shot, your quarry will drop. Just be patient, a good shot will present itself, if a good shot is not presented then it was'nt meant to be, and wait until the next opportunity.

Of course saying "be patient" as a fat old guy with a good number of successes is easy, when I started I was very eager and had to learn to slow down and think through the testosterone fog!

As a reptile keeper you probably already have respect for animals, just extend that to your deer hunting and you will find waiting for the right shot is just another form of respect because it will result in a clean, quick kill.

Good luck with your search and hunting.

Also there is a saying in the shooting community, beware of the man with one gun!

If you want to try different calibres go to a range that rents guns, it may cost you but it will give you appreciation for what's out there.

[Brad09]

Once again, I thank everyone that took the time to participate, especially in my recently added poll. Seems from popular opinion that the .270 Winchester seems like a good caliber.

I'd like to address a few comments since my last post here. Firstly, regarding shooting at deer and shot placement, my first concern in taking down a deer is a humane kill. My understanding is that for the most humane shot, you need a clear view of the lungs and/or heart. Therefore, broadside or barely quartering in one direction or the other is obviously the ideal, or perhaps straight-on. Now, obviously this isn't always going to happen, since I don't think the deer are big on the idea of me shooting them. So with that said, I'd like to say that despite my inexperience in this venture, I consider myself to be a pretty intelligent guy. I also know my limits. So I would definitely not even consider taking a shot unless I thought that it was going to be as quick and clean of a kill as possible. To me, a shot at the hindquarters doesn't seem like a shot at all. As far as Sputnik was saying, I can understand that an experienced hunter obviously has the patience, but I'd rather wait for a shot that I am confident in than just start blasting holes in a deer in the hopes that the trauma kills it. Not only would I like to see this animal die quickly and as painlessly as it can, but I'd also eventually like to eat it, and I typically enjoy my meat free of bullet holes.

I'd like to thank Homesteader in particular for his remarks. He seems to understand my situation entirely, and, once again, has enforced the idea that a .270 Winchester is a good choice of caliber.

Thanks again for all the posts, and please take a second to offer your opinion in the poll above.

Brad

[FallAirFever]

Brad first off let me comend you on your attitude as far as wanting to make an ethical kill. It is the very least the game we hunt deserves. I have been reading many of your posts you have come up with some great questions, keep them coming and like dick284 said in another one of your threads look to other sources for information, seek out the answers on you own, but I am pretty sure you are doing this as well.

I have voted for a .270 for you as well, but I will freely admit I am ver biased. My only hunting rifle right now is a 270 ruger I have been using for 4 seasons, I bought it used off a friend of mine. Everything I have seen from this caliber tells me it is a deer slayer, it is a very accurate gun. i put a limbsaver recoil pad on it last year and love shooting it almost no felt recoil.

My second choice would be a .308 great all around gun and range of bullets, same can be said for 30-06 but recoil might be an issue? 7mm-08 is a really cool caliber as well and would fit the bill nicely, but a little limited by availability of factory ammo, i know i had a buddies and wast trying to find ammo to try out and it was a bit of a pain, but if you reloaded it would be awesome.

I would like to extend you an invitation to the range, I live in langdon and the range i go to is just on the south east corner of Calgary. you can shoot my 270 and i have a 30-06 in my possesion right now so you could shoot that too to see what you like. Sorry I dont have more for you to try but might give you an idea where to start. PM me if you are interested we can try to get out for a couple hours one weekend.

Dont get too hung up on brand as far as guns go, shoulder them all an see what fits and feels good if it has the features you are looking for, go for it, hope you get a bit of a staff discount!

Good luck in your search.

[378 Wthrby]

Wow, I haven't heard this discussion for aprox. 3 hrs. Not a new conversation and can be debated forever. If this is your first rifle get something that isn't going to cause you to flinch. With that being said use a large enough caliber to kill quickly and as humanely as possible. Next and probably the most important rule of hunting is "Sight in your gun shoot it alot and know that when you put the cross hairs on an animal 99% of the time you will hit your target. I would say if you want to hunt this year you are to late to know your new rifle that well. Next lookup the animal you will be hunting and understand when it is broadside or quarteing away from you or towards you that you know where to aim to kill. This is probably the #1 factor with hunters wounding animals and having to track them for miles or giving up and not bringing home what they shot. That drives me nuts and puts a blemish in hunting in general and in the eyes of bleeding heart Liberals.
My experience so far is I own alot of rifles and have shot alot of rifles but my first rifle was a .270 winchester, still have it and have hunted with it for 22 years and have killed everything I have shot at. I'm not bragging just my experience. It knocks the crap out of deer bear and moose from 50 yrds to 300 yrds without ever having to chamber a second round. Recoil is minimal and if I was to put my life on the line I would reach for my .270 because I know that rifle the best.
Sorry for the long thread "Just my 2 cents" well maybe 4 cents, lol.
Good luck and Good hunting

[gube]

The 270 win is my favorite. I still use the same one I started out with over 30 years ago. My next favorite would be the 2506.

[roger]

Brad, welcome to the world of online arguements where being a better typer is more important than a sniper, there are three things that should never be discussed here politics, religion and which caliber to use on the first two..
anywho,
308 -30.06- 270
even tho i find these three choices hohum, these are the proverbial vanilla icecream of the cartridge world... start here...they are economical, have predictable performance in a multitude of situations and popular for that reason. plus the load selections are endless.
put a couple of thousand rounds through it, maybe someday youll crave something that is faster or slower, flatter or heavier. stay away from (dare i say) oddball stuff, like weatherbys, lazzoroni, 3030's, custom grinds and grampa petes army surplus 303's guns. these are specialist tools for specialty applications, sure they work, but right now you need reliable, available, affordable and above all , SAFE.
there are many entry level guns that are the quality that will do justice to your ability/desire. (and of course, it fits ya)
get some miles on your set up and decide at another time. maybe someday youll focus on 'rocky road icecream' and youll have the history to back it up

i would suggest you spend more on a scope than the rifle..then the scope moves with you (if) you get a new rifle someday. for example put a zeiss conquest on a HR single shot break action in 270 win. you cant go wrong with quality optics.

[catnthehat]

No need to explain - they work. I could also give you just as many examples where standard cartridges failed and magnums got the job done, but I digress. I only intended to provide a real world scenario where a mag was more practical and appropriate than "hype", as you put it.

As far as "taking a low percentage shot.." I suppose that really depends on what your shooting;)

And like I said, a mag is probably not the right choice for a beginner.
I've seen deer , moose , and elk, run away after being hit with everything from243's to 375H&H's ( yup!) and heard of a lot more than I have seen.
The common denominator in all was BAD SHOOTING!!:sick:
A magnum isn't going to help anyone who cannot place a bullet properly.
However, choosing a particular cartridge that a shooter can handle and staying within its ( and their's) limitations to maximize said cartridge will, and should be the ultimate goal of every hunter.
Cat

[rem338win]

Go .270! It has always been the king of deer cartridges (and sheep for that matter) and may it live on many years to come. It is to North American deer hunting what the 375 H&H is to Africa.

[Okotokian]

As long as you place the shot, your quarry will drop. Just be patient, a good shot will present itself, if a good shot is not presented then it was'nt meant to be, and wait until the next opportunity.

.

I'm still a bit confused. Every time this subject comes up (and I'm not referring JUST to deer) I hear "It's all about shot placement, not caliber", "If you wound an animal with a cannon, it's still wounded", "Just wait for a good shot". I get it, but I'm still wondering, is there a GOOD ETHICAL SHOT on any animal with a .300 WM that would NOT be a GOOD ETHICAL SHOT with a .243? Are there ever any situations where one might say "This animal would have been killed more quickly if the same shot had been made with a larger caliber bullet of the same quality"? Many of the posters here seem to be saying "No".

Elk have been taken with a .243, so is a .243 as good an elk rifle as any other? If not, WHY? I'm not arguing. I'm confused. It seems that many are saying that the only reason for a larger gun is ego. (and yes, I get that you have to be able to shoot the thing comfortably, but if you can...)

[Dick284]

I'm still a bit confused. Every time this subject comes up (and I'm not referring JUST to deer) I hear "It's all about shot placement, not caliber", "If you wound an animal with a cannon, it's still wounded", "Just wait for a good shot". I get it, but I'm still wondering, is there a GOOD ETHICAL SHOT on any animal with a .300 WM that would NOT be a GOOD ETHICAL SHOT with a .243? Are there ever any situations where one might say "This animal would have been killed more quickly if the same shot had been made with a larger caliber bullet of the same quality"? Many of the posters here seem to be saying "No".

Elk have been taken with a .243, so is a .243 as good an elk rifle as any other? If not, WHY? I'm not arguing. I'm confused. It seems that many are saying that the only reason for a larger gun is ego. (and yes, I get that you have to be able to shoot the thing comfortably, but if you can...)




I have to agree to a point.

The be patient and wait, is a very subjective statement. Kind of like telling some one who is going totally out of their mind to calm down. Ever had that happen to you, you've had a harrowing situation, and are a bit flippant, and someone will say "just calm down." From personal experience you sort of want to kick them right in the pills.

Shot placement is a function of shooting ability, first, and foremost.
To be able to shoot well, one must practice. To practice and become proficent, and further to enjoy your time practicing, the caliber should be of such a size that it does'nt induce poor habits such as flinches, and or kinaesthesia.

The second part of shot placement is understand your quary's anatomy.


Caliber selection especially for new comers is part and parcel a combination of many things.

1. Understanding the recoil/practice relationship
2. Recognizing that a new shooter will neither be calm or patient.
3. Knowing full well errors in understanding the animals anatomy will raise it's ugly head.
4. Knowing it is common place for persons to automatically shoot to center of mass.

What does that leave us with.
hmmm.

Calibers large enough to drive into the vitals even from bad angles, or when the shot is rushed.
But a caliber of small enough size WRT recoil that the shooter will want to practice with it, and henceforth become proficent with it.

Larger calibers will buy you a bit of room for error, as will projectiles designed in such a fashion that secondary projectiles from bullet upset occur.

But to go to one extreme or the other, be it great large calibers with offensive muzzle blast and recoil, or calibers which lend themselves effective only with proper shot placement, yet being light enough in recoil.

Is pretty much looking for bigger trouble and errors than may already be prevelant with a new shooter.

[ABDUKNUT]

I'm still wondering, is there a GOOD ETHICAL SHOT on any animal with a .300 WM that would NOT be a GOOD ETHICAL SHOT with a .243?

Elk have been taken with a .243, so is a .243 as good an elk rifle as any other? If not, WHY?

The 'Texas heart shot' comes to mind... Shooting a deer square in the butt, as it stands facing directly away from the shooter. Or, a 'quartering toward' shot, where the target is the shoulder closest to the shooter. Both will kill deer, moose and elk, but are not considered 'ethical shots' by most unless the rifle/cartridge/bullet being used is proven adequate.

Elk can be easily dispatched with a .243, and likely smaller, with a good bullet placed into the ribs or tucked in behind the shoulder. All variables have to play into your favour on this shot, though. Placement must be near exact and this requires a very reliable rest, a known range, favourable weather and lighting, and co-operation from the animal.

'Ethics' are quite dynamic. A shot that you swear you'd never take, might look feasible on the right animal under certain, favourable conditions. This is why using a 'bigger' gun might be the way to go.

I've hunted deer and black bears with a .243 and never thought I was 'under gunned' (and neither did the deer or bears) but then again if I had been carrying a .270 or .300 Win Mag, it doesn't mean I would have neccesarily been 'over gunner' either.

I think a lot of people severely underestimate the firepower of most common hunting firearms. The 12 gauge shotgun; .270 Winchester, .30-'06... All are very capable tools that are really only limited in performance by the knowledge and skills of the shooter. Magnums are neat and fun, but the advantage they offer can really only be taken advantage of by a tiny segment of the hunting population, and only in very specific situations.

[gitrdun]

Shmag,

The way I figure it, most of my shooting will be fairly open, although I'm sure that I'll make more than one attempt at critters hiding in the brush. I appreciate the suggestion of a new caliber. However, the problem I'm having with it is that .264 Winchester Magnum cartridges, as you said, are a little less common. I'd like to keep my first rifle in a caliber that is widely available, just so I can experiment with several different types of ammunition, for both hunting and curiosity purposes. I've realized in the last 24 hours that not only do I want to learn to hunt, and hunt well, but 15 or 20 years down the road, when I've got some experience, and I encounter a new hunter, I want to be able to share as much information as I can. I find that the people on this site are trying to be helpful, first and foremost, and that means something.

I'll use an example. I am a reptile keeper as a hobby, and have been for a lot of years. And, being part of a misunderstood group there, I've not only done what I can to advance my knowledge of reptile keeping, but I also feel that being part of that social community, it's my responsibility to project a positive image so that others may begin to accept that as a hobby. As far as killing the stereotypical blood-hungry hunter image the general public seems to see, correctly or not, I feel that if I take up hunting as a sport, it's part of my responsibility to do what I can to change how people see hunters. For the life of me, I can't remember who posted in one of my threads, but his signature read "True hunters are conservationists". And I think that, for the large part, that's true.

Brad

Brad, I like you even more with every post that you make. In my mind, you are on the right track and I could only wish that even some older hunters would take on your attitude. I am fortunate enough to have several calibers to choose from for deer hunting. I pick my caliber based on likely shot distance. For possibly long range shots, I carry a .270WSM. When I hunt in close cover, my Marlin .444 lever is the go-to gun. :)

[Selkirk]

" . . . I can't remember who posted in one of my threads, but his signature read "True hunters are conservationists". And I think that, for the large part, that's true . . . "

Very close quote Brad ... you only missed one word! :)
All kidding aside, I really do believe in that statement. I try to 'hunt' by it, as best I can.

'Kudos' Brad ... another excellent thread! It makes for a good read, and once again, for the most part, you are getting some very good advice. Don't worry about the 'verbal jousting' (magnum vs. non-magnum, etc.) ... it was bound to happen.

As for my two pennies ---

I would never recommend that a new hunter consider buying a 'magnum' for his/her first hunting rifle (all of the main reasons have already been posted). After you get a few hunting seasons under your belt, you can give that idea some thought.

For a non-magnum hunting rife that is both well established and very versatile, and has abundant off-the-shelf ammunition available (even in Katmandu ;)), you can't go wrong picking from the .270/.308/.30-06 family. Of these three, I tend to favour the .308 because of its 'short-action' feature ... the cartridge is shorter, so the bolt doesn't have to be pulled back as far, which means you can cycle another round into the chamber faster and easier.

Also, this link might help a bit; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rifle_cartridges. You can read up on all the different rifle ammunition that's available.

Good Hunting!

Dean