It's starting already...

[Kurt505]

After Canada's Supreme Court ruling two weeks ago, a BC First Nation band is telling CN, logging companies, and Sport fishermen to get off their land along the Skeena River.

Now, can Canadians stop payments to that band, or how does it work? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this one. I'm not sure what they are entitled to, and what the rest of Canada is entitled to. Does this mean they get their land back, and we can stop the transfer payments? If so this is a great day for all Canadians.

[brownbomber]

Today is a good day to be happy. It's Friday and the sun is shining. Thread like this is only going to go sideways. Everybody should just chill out and let it be until a cloudy day. Those are better for negativity.

[Kurt505]

Today is a good day to be happy. It's Friday and the sun is shining. Thread like this is only going to go sideways. Everybody should just chill out and let it be until a cloudy day. Those are better for negativity.

Ok, you're right.

In all honesty I don't know what this new ruling entitles Canadians, it happened so fast I never did get the facts on it. If it gives the band their land back and stops the transfer payments it's a win win is all I'm saying, it's a fair deal on both sides.

Mods, delete the thread before it goes south.

[rammer]

Today is a good day to be happy. It's Friday and the sun is shining. Thread like this is only going to go sideways. Everybody should just chill out and let it be until a cloudy day. Those are better for negativity.

They only go sideways because they are issues that people have strong opinions towards. I would say it is a relevant question whether you need to keep the welfare flowing to people that have no intention of ever becoming self sufficient and have no interest in contributing to society in general.

[last minute]

After Canada's Supreme Court ruling two weeks ago, a BC First Nation band is telling CN, logging companies, and Sport fishermen to get off their land along the Skeena River.

Now, can Canadians stop payments to that band, or how does it work? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this one. I'm not sure what they are entitled to, and what the rest of Canada is entitled to. Does this mean they get their land back, and we can stop the transfer payments? If so this is a great day for all Canadians.
Well if it’s there land and there telling you to get off you better go .I see it as no different than a farmer or land owner telling you to get off their land "as for stop transfer payments" that sounds like a legal question I can't tell you.:)

[brownbomber]

They only go sideways because they are issues that people have strong opinions towards. I would say it is a relevant question whether you need to keep the welfare flowing to people that have no intention of ever becoming self sufficient and have no interest in contributing to society in general.

I agree that people have strong opinions on the issue. But the second half of your post is inaccurate, I don't argue that money solves problems because it doesn't, I don't argue that people do need to take control of their lives themselves. Yes a higher percentage of FN people are on welfare than the national average. But to imply that a majority do is ridiculous and inaccurate, unless you can provide a link. I had one a while back that unemployment was much higher than the national average but nowhere near majority.

[Kurt505]

Well if it’s there land and there telling you to get off you better go .I see it as no different than a farmer or land owner telling you to get off their land "as for stop transfer payments" that sounds like a legal question I can't tell you.:)

I already know if they tell you to get off, just get off, like a farmers land it's that simple. It's the part if they still get transfer payments or not I'm wondering about. If they do still receive money from the government it should come to an immediate stop, they should be entitled to the exact same benefits as a farmer as well. It should just be that simple.

[st99]

Funny how that works... as a white man, I can't claim ownership right of the land that my ancestors got evicted with no compensation for the creation of a park, but in a country that preach equality, another "race" has a total different treatment.

[Matt L.]

How in the hell do they expect to get CN to move?

[CanuckShooter]

Funny how that works... as a white man, I can't claim ownership right of the land that my ancestors got evicted with no compensation for the creation of a park, but in a country that preach equality, another "race" has a total different treatment.

Why can't you.....hire a lawyer, spend a couple, or several hundred thousand dollars to see how you make out...:thinking-006:

[Ivo]

I think there is an answer to all of this, but it's not a simple answer. The FN people have suffered many injustices in the past but that was that's history. The government has compensated them and keeps compensating them although I'm not sure if it is fair for either side.
It would just be so much easier if they could come to some type of resolution in these cases that would benefit both sides. I know the negotiations that the City of Calgary has gone through with Tsu Tina regarding the Weasel Head extension of Stoney Trail through their land and it seemed any time they came to an agreement of some sort, the FN people would change their mind and stall or kill the negotiation. Why? It is not easy to do business with anyone when a trust relationship cannot be established as a result of someone not sticking to their word.

I am not blaming anyone, just saying that this is a very complicated situation.

[CanuckShooter]

I already know if they tell you to get off, just get off, like a farmers land it's that simple. It's the part if they still get transfer payments or not I'm wondering about. If they do still receive money from the government it should come to an immediate stop, they should be entitled to the exact same benefits as a farmer as well. It should just be that simple.

So are you saying that a person on welfare cannot own any land? What about joe public that has run out of EI and had to draw social assistance....does that get cut off because he has a house on a postage sized lot??

[elkhunter11]

Why can't you.....hire a lawyer, spend a couple, or several hundred thousand dollars to see how you make out..

It's a lot easier, when it's the taxpayer's money that is used to hire the lawyers.:)

[CanuckShooter]

How in the hell do they expect to get CN to move?


Have you ever heard of the Kettle Valley Railroad? :thinking-006:

They have till Aug 4th to figure out something.....

[3blade]

Payments: stop
Police: stop
Ambulance: stop
Firefighters: stop
Gas, electricity, water, road repair/plowing: stop

Until they prove they have the funds to pay for everything, for five years in advance. You want to live on an island without the evil white man? Have 'atter brudders. But you sure as hell don't get things both ways. Cause if I can't fish or hunt there, my taxes ain't paying for it.

[mooseknuckle]

Why can't you.....hire a lawyer, spend a couple, or several hundred thousand dollars to see how you make out...:thinking-006:

And who pays the FN's legal bill in a similar situation?:thinking-006:

[CanuckShooter]

It's a lot easier, when it's the taxpayer's money that is used to hire the lawyers.:)


They keep track of it too, and it is deducted from any future land/or treaty settlements that may happen. Or, so I have been told.

[CanuckShooter]

And who pays the FN's legal bill in a similar situation?:thinking-006:

They get a loan from the feds....the group that has a fiduciary duty to them....just like dad lending his kids money to launch a court action...likely to never be repaid...:thinking-006: yup, real life situation.

[Kurt505]

So are you saying that a person on welfare cannot own any land? What about joe public that has run out of EI and had to draw social assistance....does that get cut off because he has a house on a postage sized lot??

Are you for real? Scary thought isn't it? It must suck to be a non aboriginal farmer hey?

You cry for equality but cry because your expected to be treated equally.

[Mb-MBR]

Here we go again..............there will be a lot of posturing in B.C with this SCC. Consider this the start......No doubt it will be difficult due to the crown and industry's previous past in dealing with the Indian.

I wonder what the farming industry gets in transfer/subsidy payments from both provincial and federal crown? Kurt do you know????

[CanuckShooter]

Payments: stop
Police: stop
Ambulance: stop
Firefighters: stop
Gas, electricity, water, road repair/plowing: stop

Until they prove they have the funds to pay for everything, for five years in advance. You want to live on an island without the evil white man? Have 'atter brudders. But you sure as hell don't get things both ways. Cause if I can't fish or hunt there, my taxes ain't paying for it.


And then the SCC gives more and more and more land to all the rest of the bands and they tell US to get off their land. They don't need us, all they need are the big corporations...it's the little guy that will get hurt....so go ahead make some friends and attack the legal owners of the land....:thinking-006:...then ask them for permission to hunt on the land, guess you know what the answer will be?

[st99]

They keep track of it too, and it is deducted from any future land/or treaty settlements that may happen. Or, so I have been told.

great, so your tax will finance my lawyer, and I will reimburse it on a payment plan over the next few 100 yrs

I'm looking forward to become the selfish owner of 500 km2 of prime hunting and fishing territory

[Mb-MBR]

Payments: stop
Police: stop
Ambulance: stop
Firefighters: stop
Gas, electricity, water, road repair/plowing: stop

Until they prove they have the funds to pay for everything, for five years in advance. You want to live on an island without the evil white man? Have 'atter brudders. But you sure as hell don't get things both ways. Cause if I can't fish or hunt there, my taxes ain't paying for it.

Not all white men are evil. Plus you don't decide where your taxes go, you elect idiots to decide that for you. Unless you're one of those sovereignists.

[CanuckShooter]

Are you for real? Scary thought isn't it? It must suck to be a non aboriginal farmer hey?

You cry for equality but cry because your expected to be treated equally.

You must have me mixed up with someone else, I foofoo at the call for equality. There is no such thing in the human race, and never will be.

[Winch101]

There's an old Saskatchewan Farm Saying ...


If you want to double your farm income

Just put another mailbox at the end of the driveway ....:sign0176:


Good news just in on the wire , sanity prevails ....


http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grassy-narrows-loses-supreme-court-logging-rights-decision-1.2703123


Truth be known I feel bad about this one , have some fond memories
Of grassy narrows ....none I can tell the wife about ....:scared0018:

[Kurt505]

You must have me mixed up with someone else, I foofoo at the call for equality. There is no such thing in the human race, and never will be.

I was using the term equality because it's apparent YOU want more than equality, I used the term in reference to most Canadians.

[CanuckShooter]

great, so your tax will finance my lawyer, and I will reimburse it on a payment plan over the next few 100 yrs

I'm looking forward to become the selfish owner of 500 km2 of prime hunting and fishing territory


Sorry bud...we don't have access to that little benefit. If you cannot afford the lawyers then your SOL, unless you can find one to take his payment from your settlement.

[3blade]

And then the SCC gives more and more and more land to all the rest of the bands and they tell US to get off their land. They don't need us, all they need are the big corporations...it's the little guy that will get hurt....so go ahead make some friends and attack the legal owners of the land....:thinking-006:...then ask them for permission to hunt on the land, guess you know what the answer will be?

I know what the answer is, regarding fishing and hunting. I also remember when it wasn't like that.


One winter, nothing in or out. What happens? Think CN or any other company will send in the cavalry? Not a chance. FN are completely dependent on modern technology funded by the bad old white man. Let em have a real taste of traditional lifestyle, there won't be many left when they beg for us to come back.

[st99]

here's what scares me:

land loss = hunting oportunity loss = people quit hunting = anti's gain power = hunting banned

on that day, it will also be banned for first nation, there's no way a legal system like ours they keep it if we loose it

[CanuckShooter]

I was using the term equality because it's apparent YOU want more than equality, I used the term in reference to most Canadians.

I think your trying to confuse me......:thinking-006:

It's too bad the Indian Act doesn't allow the govt to charge land taxes on status lands.....not much insight there eh? Any land taxes will be paid directly to the band, just like happens in West Kelowna.

[CanuckShooter]

I know what the answer is, regarding fishing and hunting. I also remember when it wasn't like that.


One winter, nothing in or out. What happens? Think CN or any other company will send in the cavalry? Not a chance. They are completely dependabt on modern technology funded by the bad old white man. Let em have a real taste of traditional lifestyle, there won't be many left when they beg for us to come back.

I think your giving the "bad old white man" far too much credit. AND silly us, we educated them...do you think they don't have people with the technical skills to run things themselves?

[3blade]

I think your giving the "bad old white man" far too much credit. AND silly us, we educated them...do you think they don't have people with the technical skills to run things themselves?

See for me, it's not exactly us vs them, cause I got blood on both sides. But they don't see it that way. All or nothing? Ok, they made me the enemy. And I'm sick of paying for places I can't use or be safe in.

And no I don't think they do. One way to find out.

[Kurt505]

I think your trying to confuse me......:thinking-006:

It's too bad the Indian Act doesn't allow the govt to charge land taxes on status lands.....not much insight there eh? Any land taxes will be paid directly to the band, just like happens in West Kelowna.

If the rest of Canada is not allowed on, there ain't going to be much tax revenue on that land. It's simply unjust, but you wouldn't want it any other way would you?

[CanuckShooter]

If the rest of Canada is not allowed on, there ain't going to be much tax revenue on that land. It's simply unjust, but you wouldn't want it any other way would you?

Don't be silly, they are asserting ownership, and will be seeking revenue streams. Just like the vast majority of business people would.

[CanuckShooter]

Payments: stop
Police: stop
Ambulance: stop
Firefighters: stop
Gas, electricity, water, road repair/plowing: stop

Until they prove they have the funds to pay for everything, for five years in advance. You want to live on an island without the evil white man? Have 'atter brudders. But you sure as hell don't get things both ways. Cause if I can't fish or hunt there, my taxes ain't paying for it.

See for me, it's not exactly us vs them, cause I got blood on both sides. But they don't see it that way. All or nothing? Ok, they made me the enemy. And I'm sick of paying for places I can't use or be safe in.

And no I don't think they do. One way to find out.


Gee, sure sound like an 'us vs them' statement, please correct me if I have misunderstood....you want to cut off everything from all not just them?? :thinking-006:

[Kurt505]

Don't be silly, they are asserting ownership, and will be seeking revenue streams. Just like the vast majority of business people would.

Do they still expect transfer payments or any other "special" funding from the government that any other businesses do not get? That's my only question. Can you answer that for me?

[brownbomber]

Blockade the Roads out of the reserves , the public hiways .

If they can't get to the Liquor store or Bingo , they'll soon come to the table .

Some local taxpayers protesting the Band and the Govt misuse of public funds .
Those Nitch will fold like yesterday's newspaper , there will be more Racist

Cards played than in Alabama in the early 60s .

Really ? Lol that's weak

[3blade]

Gee, sure sound like an 'us vs them' statement, please correct me if I have misunderstood....you want to cut off everything from all not just them?? :thinking-006:

Fair enough, a little post-night shift punch drunk. I used to see it thier way, as if they were protecting the land from corporations that destroyed everything. lets just say that theory got shot apart pretty well, they care for nothing but money.

if status FN really want to go back to the old ways, fine. But that includes losing everything they benefit from based on our tax dollars. Either part of Canada and our system or not. I accepted the reality of the 21st century, with its benefits and detractors. Time for them to decide, and take a one way trip down whichever path they choose.

[CanuckShooter]

Do they still expect transfer payments or any other "special" funding from the government that any other businesses do not get? That's my only question. Can you answer that for me?

Did someone change the constitution? Why would anyone think winning a 'land title' court case would impact long standing funding arrangements??

So because they are land owners now...the govt quits funding the reserve schools, nurse stations and police services? I don't understand why some people think there is a correlation here.

[brownbomber]

Payments: stop
Police: stop
Ambulance: stop
Firefighters: stop
Gas, electricity, water, road repair/plowing: stop

Until they prove they have the funds to pay for everything, for five years in advance. You want to live on an island without the evil white man? Have 'atter brudders. But you sure as hell don't get things both ways. Cause if I can't fish or hunt there, my taxes ain't paying for it.

Ok I pay taxes, so same rationale I should get access anywhere ?

[3blade]

Did someone change the constitution? Why would anyone think winning a 'land title' court case would impact long standing funding arrangements??

So because they are land owners now...the govt quits funding the reserve schools, nurse stations and police services? I don't understand why some people think there is a correlation here.

No treaty, no funding. "Arrangements" were based on previous circumstance, and can be changed or cancelled rather quickly. Need anything else explained?

[3blade]

Ok I pay taxes, so same rationale I should get access anywhere ?

Where do you not have access to those services? If your chief cheated the band, that's called "self governance" (which is a war chant by almost FN leaders). Take it up with them.

[Kurt505]

Did someone change the constitution? Why would anyone think winning a 'land title' court case would impact long standing funding arrangements??

So because they are land owners now...the govt quits funding the reserve schools, nurse stations and police services? I don't understand why some people think there is a correlation here.

So they have title to the land and it's resources now
They have the right to kick CN, logging company's, and sorts men off
They are still entitled to my tax dollars because um, well can you tell me why?

I'm not allowed on the land, I get no revenue from the land, the new land owners do not pay taxes, but they are entitled to my money and there's not a damn thing I can do about it. I don't understand why I would be upset with such a great deal.

[brownbomber]

No I mean anywhere. You said that if you pay taxes you should have access to anywhere or cut off all services and revenue. So by your rationale I should too. I don't have a chief btw.

[3blade]

So they have title to the land and it's resources now
They have the right to kick CN, logging company's, and sorts men off
They are still entitled to my tax dollars because um, well can you tell me why?

I'm not allowed on the land, I get no revenue from the land, the new land owners do not pay taxes, but they are entitled to my money and there's not a damn thing I can do about it. I don't understand why I would be upset with such a great deal.

X2

Well said.

[Mb-MBR]

No treaty, no funding. "Arrangements" were based on previous circumstance, and can be changed or cancelled rather quickly. Need anything else explained?

Oh, I don't think you know of which you speak. BC is going to have its hands full with the decision in their province and you want the SCC to be applicable across the country???? Meaning reassert Title back to the Indian in the rest of Canada?


The SCC did state the province can still proceed with development but the burden got a little heavier. They will have to deal with it. So will industry. One thing for sure, B.C and the Feds must be sorry they dragged their a_ _es in negotiating Treaties in BC.

[brownbomber]

No treaty, no funding. "Arrangements" were based on previous circumstance, and can be changed or cancelled rather quickly. Need anything else explained?


In reality though that doesn't help the situation. That's not a realistic approach to solving any issues. You're angry I can feel for you but that doesn't change reality. It's rough I know but some can't see that maybe changing minds is the path to what you want to achieve. Change the people, the chiefs will have to follow suit or move on. Economic freedom is true freedom and unfortunately the powers that be don't want that. They want the freedom to do as they please and a us against them reprisal is playing into their hands. That only begets more negativity.

[Mb-MBR]

So they have title to the land and it's resources now
They have the right to kick CN, logging company's, and sorts men off
They are still entitled to my tax dollars because um, well can you tell me why?

I'm not allowed on the land, I get no revenue from the land, the new land owners do not pay taxes, but they are entitled to my money and there's not a damn thing I can do about it. I don't understand why I would be upset with such a great deal.

http://business.financialpost.com/2014/07/09/ontario-miners-loggers-await-supreme-court-of-canada-decision-on-treaty-rights/

SCC confirms the provincial governments do have the right to take up land.

Kurt, its not your money once you hand it over to the guberment.....you better have another snickers.

[Kurt505]

http://business.financialpost.com/2014/07/09/ontario-miners-loggers-await-supreme-court-of-canada-decision-on-treaty-rights/

SCC confirms the provincial governments do have the right to take up land.

Kurt, its not your money once you hand it over to the guberment.....you better have another snickers.

You're right, but it damn straight shouldn't be theirs either!

[3blade]

No I mean anywhere. You said that if you pay taxes you should have access to anywhere or cut off all services and revenue. So by your rationale I should too. I don't have a chief btw.

Yes, and im not sure what you don't have access to? Thought you were referring to rez conditions.

we're not going to confuse individual (paid for) private property with a group claim for thounds of sq km. of land




Fleas arguing over who owns the dog...

[3blade]

Oh, I don't think you know of which you speak. BC is going to have its hands full with the decision in their province and you want the SCC to be applicable across the country???? Meaning reassert Title back to the Indian in the rest of Canada?


The SCC did state the province can still proceed with development but the burden got a little heavier. They will have to deal with it. So will industry. One thing for sure, B.C and the Feds must be sorry they dragged their a_ _es in negotiating Treaties in BC.

No... I want to make an example of this band, so it doesn't spread to the rest of Canada. FN lawyers will be coming up with some way to use this here, and across the country.

Yeah, I think we're all sorry about this mess.

[Kurt505]

My point on the other thread, and this one too I guess, is that where this is hopefully going is total independence for all Canadians.

For some aboriginal bands it will be a financial explosion, but for others it will be the beginning of hard times. Do you think the aboriginal bands who have land that is a gold mine so to speak, will share the wealth with all other bands? I'm still waiting for that fat check from Darryl Kats, not in the mailbox today tho. This is where it SHOULD lead, otherwise I suggest a civil revolution for all other Canadians who don't get their cake and the privilege to eat it too, to band together and protest the use of their tax dollars.

[CanuckShooter]

I'm not allowed on the land, I get no revenue from the land, the new land owners do not pay taxes, but they are entitled to my money and there's not a damn thing I can do about it. I don't understand why I would be upset with such a great deal.

Could you be talking about a religious community or a church...

Your not allowed on the land uninvited -- private property
You get no revenue from the land-- of course you don't own it
The new land owners don't pay taxes-- vows of perpetual poverty, charitable org designation, AND the new land owners can collect maternity benefits, EI, welfare, free education and medical treatment.....sic setup.

[Mb-MBR]

You're right, but it damn straight shouldn't be theirs either!

Remember, only 3% of what you hand over goes to the Indian. Think there are bigger fish out there, we just get the brunt of some of the Canadian public's hatred it when ever this topic comes up.

Over time, this should allow other FNs in B.C to recreate the Osoyoos situation IMHO.

[Mb-MBR]

No... I want to make an example of this band, so it doesn't spread to the rest of Canada. FN lawyers will be coming up with some way to use this here, and across the country.

Yeah, I think we're all sorry about this mess.

As long as there's lawyers and the court systems, this will replay itself time and time again......I have many dealings with lawyers in my line of work and in one of my dealings I was debating a lawyer and thought I had her cornered with nowhere to hide, no where to run...........then she blurbs out, "I'm a lawyer I can argue both ways" to which I didn't have a response other than to soy, well there's the problem..

[CanuckShooter]

As long as there's lawyers and the court systems, this will replay itself time and time again......I have many dealings with lawyers in my line of work and in one of my dealings I was debating a lawyer and thought I had her cornered with nowhere to hide, no where to run...........then she blurbs out, "I'm a lawyer I can argue both ways" to which I didn't have a response other than to soy, well there's the problem..

LOL~good one!! I was having a go around with a lawyer, and I said that isn't logical and he said: "the first thing you learn is the law isn't logical".....

[Kurt505]

Remember, only 3% of what you hand over goes to the Indian. Think there are bigger fish out there, we just get the brunt of some of the Canadian public's hatred it when ever this topic comes up.

Over time, this should allow other FNs in B.C to recreate the Osoyoos situation IMHO.

I don't care if it's only 0.00000001%, I can't spend 3% of my time on their land, I will never receive 3% of the money they make. I still have to pay taxes on the land I own, I still have to give the government 32% of the money I make. Why should I have to be upset with just the other 97% of the money the government takes from me? Why now should this band still be entitled to a nickel of my money?

[Kurt505]

Could you be talking about a religious community or a church...

Your not allowed on the land uninvited -- private property
You get no revenue from the land-- of course you don't own it
The new land owners don't pay taxes-- vows of perpetual poverty, charitable org designation, AND the new land owners can collect maternity benefits, EI, welfare, free education and medical treatment.....sic setup.

Give me a break, that is weak, extremely weak, I'm actually laughing at this right now.

[Matt L.]

Ya know somethin'? I was born in Canada, this is the only land I know and it's just as much mine as anyone else's. Why in the hell are we fighting over it?

[rammer]

Remember, only 3% of what you hand over goes to the Indian. Think there are bigger fish out there, we just get the brunt of some of the Canadian public's hatred it when ever this topic comes up.

Over time, this should allow other FNs in B.C to recreate the Osoyoos situation IMHO.

If more bands were willing to try and emulate the Osoyoos approach rather than their current methods I can assure you threads like this would not derail and a lot more Canadians would begin to gain some respect for the FN people again.

Unfortunately the Osoyoos band is a rare situation that is only there because one chief has more foresight than the rest of the lazy chiefs in this country combined.

[Mb-MBR]

I don't care if it's only 0.00000001%, I can't spend 3% of my time on their land, I will never receive 3% of the money they make. I still have to pay taxes on the land I own, I still have to give the government 32% of the money I make. Why should I have to be upset with just the other 97% of the money the government takes from me? Why now should this band still be entitled to a nickel of my money?

If you're in Alberta, you traverse Indian land with every step you take, every mile you drive, its all covered under Treaty, yes/no??? Not sure if you're aware of it or not but the reservations are not owned by the band or the Indians, the federal government hold's those lands in trust for the Indians. So they're owned by the feds.

Will this area affect you directly? Do you have plans to go there and start a business, a holiday, buy a cabin or some other rational to traverse that particular land?

[Mb-MBR]

Ya know somethin'? I was born in Canada, this is the only land I know and it's just as much mine as anyone else's. Why in the hell are we fighting over it?

We're just cyber bating, we're not fighting...:fighting0074::fighting0074::budo::budo :

[Kurt505]

If you're in Alberta, you traverse Indian land with every step you take, every mile you drive, its all covered under Treaty, yes/no??? Not sure if you're aware of it or not but the reservations are not owned by the band or the Indians, the federal government hold's those lands in trust for the Indians. So they're owned by the feds.

Will this area affect you directly? Do you have plans to go there and start a business, a holiday, buy a cabin or some other rational to traverse that particular land?

Yes, I was just there fishing last summer.

What they are planning on doing is holding Canada ransom until they get paid enough money, problem is what is enough? How far will I, my children, my children's children have to pay just to have equal rights in Canada? Will it ever happen? Are we working hard to build a better country so in the end we can turn it over, pack our things and move to another country we will never be allowed to call our native land?

[st99]

people have to learn, you can't go forward if you keep looking back

[marxman]

pride is at the bottom of it all its why the natives think they are entitled and why albertans are the same way although i dont blame them so much at least they could run their own system

[CanuckShooter]

Yes, I was just there fishing last summer.

What they are planning on doing is holding Canada ransom until they get paid enough money, problem is what is enough? How far will I, my children, my children's children have to pay just to have equal rights in Canada? Will it ever happen? Are we working hard to build a better country so in the end we can turn it over, pack our things and move to another country we will never be allowed to call our native land?

You don't pay attention do ya? I showed you how to do it. Start a church, claim perpetual poverty on your income tax....equality!!

[CanuckShooter]

Don't like that one, buy a profitable company, then buy one with losses on the books for pennies on the dollar...pay zero tax. Equality!!

[Kurt505]

You don't pay attention do ya? I showed you how to do it. Start a church, claim perpetual poverty on your income tax....equality!!

You don't get it do you? Why would me taking advantage of the system make things better? It's that EXACT train of thinking that gets under my skin.

Furthermore, I can't believe you would admit to viewing the aboriginal people in that manner, that in itself says a lot.

[brownbomber]

Give me a break, that is weak, extremely weak, I'm actually laughing at this right now.

If that's weak what do you think of winch reference access to liquor stores as a way to resolve the issue ? That is one of the weakest stereotypical things I've ever seen on this forum. If you're about equality for all then ......

[pickrel pat]

You don't pay attention do ya? I showed you how to do it. Start a church, claim perpetual poverty on your income tax....equality!!

He's probably to proud to lower himself into using those methods. It would seem you.....not so much.

[Kurt505]

If that's weak what do you think of winch reference access to liquor stores as a way to resolve the issue ? That is one of the weakest stereotypical things I've ever seen on this forum. If you're about equality for all then ......

Winch wrote it, not me, that's not my style or way of thinking. Not all us white guys are the same either.

I would suggest stopping all transfer payments to that reserve until the matter is settled, then go from there.

[brownbomber]

Didn't say that. Don't think most are like that either, maybe some others should be jumping on that. Find it funny that those who say I'm not like that I just don't like inequality don't take others to task for foolish statements of that nature.

[Kurt505]

Didn't say that. Don't think most are like that either, maybe some others should be jumping on that. Find it funny that those who say I'm not like that I just don't like inequality don't take others to task for foolish statements of that nature.

To be honest I did not even read that post until you brought it up to me. The same could be said about you not responding to some of Canuck Shooters posts I guess.

[Kurt505]

Winch wrote it, not me, that's not my style or way of thinking. Not all us white guys are the same either.

I would suggest stopping all transfer payments to that reserve until the matter is settled, then go from there.

Make that stop all transfer payments to all reserves until things get settled, it's not just one person, town, county, or province that is involved, it's all of Canada.

[3blade]

Didn't say that. Don't think most are like that either, maybe some others should be jumping on that. Find it funny that those who say I'm not like that I just don't like inequality don't take others to task for foolish statements of that nature.

Winch is one of the chosen on here, you've been here long enough to know that. He's said far worse and kept on going. Ignore it.

I have yet to hear a response from any of you three as to why a band who has issued eviction notices to the public, is still entitled to tax money??

[brownbomber]

Winch is one of the chosen on here, you've been here long enough to know that. He's said far worse and kept on going. Ignore it.



I have yet to hear a response from any of you three as to why a band who has issued eviction notices to the public, is still entitled to tax money??


At what point did I argue in favour of it?

[Mb-MBR]

Yes, I was just there fishing last summer.

What they are planning on doing is holding Canada ransom until they get paid enough money, problem is what is enough? How far will I, my children, my children's children have to pay just to have equal rights in Canada? Will it ever happen? Are we working hard to build a better country so in the end we can turn it over, pack our things and move to another country we will never be allowed to call our native land?

This subject makes your blood boil I can tell. As long as there's a government, we will ALL be paying for something neither of us will like, so will our children, our children's children and their children and so on.

I don't consider it holding Canada ransom. In BCs case the courts merely affirmed the Indians still retain Title but government can still proceed with development as long as they can justify and seek consent of the band in question.

And I have stated before, the equality you seek will never happen but if it makes you feel any better, your grand children will probably have it much easier than mine will just because of who they are. This is based on what I had to encounter, what my kids had to encounter and now what my grandkids have to encounter.....there should be some comfort in that for you.

[Mb-MBR]

Winch is one of the chosen on here, you've been here long enough to know that. He's said far worse and kept on going. Ignore it.

I have yet to hear a response from any of you three as to why a band who has issued eviction notices to the public, is still entitled to tax money??

The province of Quebec has threatened separation from Canada and all that happened there is the money that flowed increased. I would further state if the tax dollars quit flowing because of "posturing" there would be a lot of municipalities and dare say some provincial governments along with political parties that should have your methodology applied to as well.

[Matt L.]

We're just cyber bating, we're not fighting...:fighting0074::fighting0074::budo::budo :

I wasn't referring to just this argument on the forum.
The biggest problem I see is that neither side is ever going to move forward while we force ourselves to remain stuck in the past. Evil things were definitely done, but constantly dwelling on them and pointing fingers has achieved what? More bitterness and resentment and precious little healing. What is it going to take to say screw this stupidity and work together? I wish I knew.

[Mb-MBR]

I wasn't referring to just this argument on the forum.
The biggest problem I see is that neither side is ever going to move forward while we force ourselves to remain stuck in the past. Evil things were definitely done, but constantly dwelling on them and pointing fingers has achieved what? More bitterness and resentment and precious little healing. What is it going to take to say screw this stupidity and work together? I wish I knew.

My simplistic answer is for all sides to sit down and be meaningful. BC is a perfect example, the feds and the province dragged their a_ _es negotiating Treaties now this decision has come down, it must have been like a kick in the n_ts to both.

I'm a firm believer anything can be resolved if the parties are willing to talk. It may sound simple but that's all it really takes. I am not a believer of blockades or militant behaviour. Those processes close doors rather than open. But history has shown that has been the only resort that has proven successful in bringing governments to the table. So its a learnt behaviour.

[Mulehahn]

I am confused. I can not find anywhere in the ruling that says they own the mineral rights or anything else for that matter. Their title says how they can control how the land is used, but it does not say who can use it. That power still lies with the province. If the province can create a solid argument that the greater good is accomplished by a certain use then it is allowed. A solid case can be made for the railway. As for timber, there is still a lot of dead pine beetle trees in the area. If it is not harvested soon it will just rot. Further, the Indian act prohibits them from taking money for access. That is only allowed under a full and proper treaty. The cannot simply go to CN and say pay us and you can go though. That is illegal (whether it would be enforced or not is another matter). They SCC ruling also says that they have to consider future uses, that means that they would have a hard time justifying an open pit mine or something for example because it would destroy the land for 5 or 6 generations down the road. This is going to screw up BC for generations, on all sides.

[Wild&Free]

FN are still wards of the State. until that changes, they will continue to receive funding. This ruling didn't change that fact.

Hope that clears things up for you Kurt.

[CanuckShooter]

He's probably to proud to lower himself into using those methods. It would seem you.....not so much.

Now now Pat, it's perfectly legal. When I was an accounting student they told us tax evasion is illegal, it is NOT illegal to arrange your affairs in such a way as to minimize the amount of tax you pay. :thinking-006:

[Kurt505]

This subject makes your blood boil I can tell. As long as there's a government, we will ALL be paying for something neither of us will like, so will our children, our children's children and their children and so on.

I don't consider it holding Canada ransom. In BCs case the courts merely affirmed the Indians still retain Title but government can still proceed with development as long as they can justify and seek consent of the band in question.

And I have stated before, the equality you seek will never happen but if it makes you feel any better, your grand children will probably have it much easier than mine will just because of who they are. This is based on what I had to encounter, what my kids had to encounter and now what my grandkids have to encounter.....there should be some comfort in that for you.

What makes my blood boil is in the aboriginals eyes I have no native land, nor will I or any of my kin ever have a native land.

Having someone else's kids life worse than mine does not make me happy. What aboriginal people seem not to realize is that much of the resentment comes from the special treatment from the government. If we are all given equal rights the resentment will disappear. Rest assured your grandchildren will have it just as good as mine if this happens.

It would be nice to be considered a native.

[CanuckShooter]

Could you be talking about a religious community or a church...

Your not allowed on the land uninvited -- private property
You get no revenue from the land-- of course you don't own it
The new land owners don't pay taxes-- vows of perpetual poverty, charitable org designation, AND the new land owners can collect maternity benefits, EI, welfare, free education and medical treatment.....sic setup.


If it looks like a duck......just sayin'

[Matt L.]

My simplistic answer is for all sides to sit down and be meaningful. BC is a perfect example, the feds and the province dragged their a_ _es negotiating Treaties now this decision has come down, it must have been like a kick in the n_ts to both.

I'm a firm believer anything can be resolved if the parties are willing to talk. It may sound simple but that's all it really takes. I am not a believer of blockades or militant behaviour. Those processes close doors rather than open. But history has shown that has been the only resort that has proven successful in bringing governments to the table. So its a learnt behaviour.

That's what I mean, what's it going to take to get them both to sit down and be meaningful? Sadly I think we're going to see a lot more anger boil over before that happens.

[pickrel pat]

Now now Pat, it's perfectly legal. When I was an accounting student they told us tax evasion is illegal, it is NOT illegal to arrange your affairs in such a way as to minimize the amount of tax you pay. :thinking-006:

Like I said, it probably goes against kurts grain to weasel benifits when other tax payers are on the hook for it.

[CanuckShooter]

What makes my blood boil is in the aboriginals eyes I have no native land, nor will I or any of my kin ever have a native land.

Having someone else's kids life worse than mine does not make me happy. What aboriginal people seem not to realize is that much of the resentment comes from the special treatment from the government. If we are all given equal rights the resentment will disappear. Rest assured your grandchildren will have it just as good as mine if this happens.

It would be nice to be considered a native.


It really upsets me that anyone gets 'special treatment' from the government while we have to struggle to make ends meet all the time. It's not just the few select aboriginals that receive benefits that most other Canadians cannot get, but it's also those making huge gains on the back of our tax system and govt bailouts.

[CanuckShooter]

Like I said, it probably goes against kurts grain to weasel benifits when other tax payers are on the hook for it.


That is OK, if people don't claim personal exemptions on their tax forms because it makes them feel like a weasel the rest of us don't have to pay so much. :) No sense in claiming medical expenses, or education, or child care....:snapoutofit:

[CanuckShooter]

I am confused. I can not find anywhere in the ruling that says they own the mineral rights or anything else for that matter. Their title says how they can control how the land is used, but it does not say who can use it. That power still lies with the province. If the province can create a solid argument that the greater good is accomplished by a certain use then it is allowed. A solid case can be made for the railway. As for timber, there is still a lot of dead pine beetle trees in the area. If it is not harvested soon it will just rot. Further, the Indian act prohibits them from taking money for access. That is only allowed under a full and proper treaty. The cannot simply go to CN and say pay us and you can go though. That is illegal (whether it would be enforced or not is another matter). They SCC ruling also says that they have to consider future uses, that means that they would have a hard time justifying an open pit mine or something for example because it would destroy the land for 5 or 6 generations down the road. This is going to screw up BC for generations, on all sides.

From what I saw we have to agree with you, this ruling leaves as many questions unanswered as it answers. I'd be willing to bet there will be many more law suits to iron out all the details.

[CanuckShooter]

The province of Quebec has threatened separation from Canada and all that happened there is the money that flowed increased. I would further state if the tax dollars quit flowing because of "posturing" there would be a lot of municipalities and dare say some provincial governments along with political parties that should have your methodology applied to as well.


But don't you get it?? THEY aren't NDNs.

[Winch101]

Firstly if anybody's feelings were hurt by the Blockade post I apologise ...
BB is the last guy I want to insult ...I like all his stuff on here ......it just
Seemed a lot funnier when I wrote it .

Now imagine Justin Cannabis at the helm if this is the wave of the future .
After the Supreme Court ruling ,you had to know somebody would be stretching their new wings, so this is going to cost gazillions . But I think the Govts reaction in New Brunswick to the Fracking protests is likely to be seen
Again . I don't think you can push Steve around , and remember these aren't Canadians ,they have made that pretty clear , so whose land is it . I just hope
The Fn don't make a fatal error .

[CanuckShooter]

Firstly if anybody's feelings were hurt by the Blockade post I apologise ...
BB is the last guy I want to insult ...I like all his stuff on here ......it just
Seemed a lot funnier when I wrote it .

Now imagine Justin Cannabis at the helm if this is the wave of the future .
After the Supreme Court ruling ,you had to know somebody would be stretching their new wings, so this is going to cost gazillions . But I think the Govts reaction in New Brunswick to the Fracking protests is likely to be seen
Again . I don't think you can push Steve around , and remember these aren't Canadians ,they have made that pretty clear , so whose land is it . I just hope
The Fn don't make a fatal error .

Then you will have a FN ISIS or HAMAS....sure hope whitey doesn't make the fatal error of encouraging that to happen. I can just see the missiles flying over Ottawa.....:thinking-006: Things can get ugly real fast.

[Winch101]

But that might be the dumbest . To qualify my statement .....if the Natives would like to eliminate all the progress they have made ,certainly with
Canadian citizens , than acts of violence is the way to go ...the FLQ incident
Did show us one thing , we all about democracy till you spit on our flag .
Missiles over Ottawa ,have you got the Okanogan Helicopter out tonite .

[unclebuck]

Check out who bought the canvasses on the wagons at the Stampede. You will find that T'su Tsina and Heart Lake First Nations Construction paid big bucks for a canvas. The chief of Heart Lake owns the company, having started it with band funds, paid all of the expenses from taxpayer money(band funds), kept the income for himself & family, and continues to make some big bucks, while the rest of the rez lives in squalour!!! CanuckShooter & Mb-MBR put that in the ceremonial pipe, mixed with slough grass & willow leaves and have the "ceremonial toke" celebrating mooniow support!!!!!

[3blade]

The province of Quebec has threatened separation from Canada and all that happened there is the money that flowed increased. I would further state if the tax dollars quit flowing because of "posturing" there would be a lot of municipalities and dare say some provincial governments along with political parties that should have your methodology applied to as well.

No argument there. In fact I'd likely be a lot harsher to Quebec and our useless politicians.

Its kinda interesting how this thing has gone, I've never got involved in one of these threads because I didn't like either side.

And then the status FN's told me I can't hunt or fish on their land. That's the line. One native telling another native he's not native enough. But I should pay taxes for this bs. Nope, if da brudders want to settle things the old way, so be it.

[Mb-MBR]

No argument there. In fact I'd likely be a lot harsher to Quebec and our useless politicians.

Its kinda interesting how this thing has gone, I've never got involved in one of these threads because I didn't like either side.

And then the status FN's told me I can't hunt or fish on their land. That's the line. One native telling another native he's not native enough. But I should pay taxes for this bs. Nope, if da brudders want to settle things the old way, so be it.

If one would talk to the Elders or had a connection to their Elders, that language wouldn't be tolerated. The Treaties were always about peace, friendship and sharing. At least that's what my Elders have taught me.

I don't think violence has ever resolved anything globally, this can be seen with the current unrest in other parts of the world after billions or trillions of dollars have been wasted.

Again, just a reminder, our taxes go to a lot more than this. We probably send more money abroad to make our government feel better.

[3blade]

If one would talk to the Elders or had a connection to their Elders, that language wouldn't be tolerated. The Treaties were always about peace, friendship and sharing. At least that's what my Elders have taught me.

I don't think violence has ever resolved anything globally, this can be seen with the current unrest in other parts of the world after billions or trillions of dollars have been wasted.

Again, just a reminder, our taxes go to a lot more than this. We probably send more money abroad to make our government feel better.

Glad you listened. Wish a lot more had, on both sides. But regardless of what we would like the situation to be, if my hunting rights are threatened ill respond in a way to make sure it doesn't happen again. If it was the other way around, you and your kids don't get to hunt and fish, id like to see just how peaceful you would be.

They will argue over the pipelines, railroads, mines etc forever. But some things are sacred, and I expect you understand that better than most.

[brownbomber]

No argument there. In fact I'd likely be a lot harsher to Quebec and our useless politicians.

Its kinda interesting how this thing has gone, I've never got involved in one of these threads because I didn't like either side.

And then the status FN's told me I can't hunt or fish on their land. That's the line. One native telling another native he's not native enough. But I should pay taxes for this bs. Nope, if da brudders want to settle things the old way, so be it.

Lol, we don't talk like that anymore. When were you allowed to hunt or fish on a reserve ?

[houndsmen]

Then you will have a FN ISIS or HAMAS....sure hope whitey doesn't make the fatal error of encouraging that to happen. I can just see the missiles flying over Ottawa.....:thinking-006: Things can get ugly real fast.


Lmao! Missiles?! Potato guns maybe :sHa_sarcasticlol:

[roper1]

Then you will have a FN ISIS or HAMAS....sure hope whitey doesn't make the fatal error of encouraging that to happen. I can just see the missiles flying over Ottawa.....:thinking-006: Things can get ugly real fast.

I think missiles are illegal; & Hamas & ISIS aren't doing so well lately!!

[CanuckShooter]

Lmao! Missiles?! Potato guns maybe :sHa_sarcasticlol:

Easy to make too....:)

It has happened before in Canada...and it could very quickly get out of hand. Any politico that dances around these issues is playing with fire.

What makes you think Canada is immune to civil unrest? Look what is happening in Syria, do you think that is impossible here?? :thinking-006:

[CanuckShooter]

I think missiles are illegal; & Hamas & ISIS aren't doing so well lately!!

Lots of things are illegal...it wasn't that long ago they found a loaded rocket launcher stashed on Vancouver Island. And stashes of military grade arms in the interior of BC.

[roper1]

And CN runs through Oka, not sure how much cross-border smuggling still occurs. Syria, come on, get real. It will NEVER get to Syria's level because the poverty levels are vastly different. We will buy the FN peace just like Quebec.

[purgatory.sv]

Only if all is taken away.

Not looking for a confrontation just looking for balance.

Balance is defined by power?

[Fisherpeak]

If one would talk to the Elders or had a connection to their Elders, that language wouldn't be tolerated. The Treaties were always about peace, friendship and sharing. At least that's what my Elders have taught me.

I don't think violence has ever resolved anything globally, this can be seen with the current unrest in other parts of the world after billions or trillions of dollars have been wasted.

Again, just a reminder, our taxes go to a lot more than this. We probably send more money abroad to make our government feel better.

Sigh.....Remember Oka,where the fn`s killed a cop and were never charged?I lived in Hazelton then,where the gitskan are telling everyone to leave now.Lived there for 17 years.Blockades of logging roads,death threats to white loggers families,arsons,vandalism...
The chiefs and band councils have long been thieves of their own people there.9 million dollars go missing but the top 1% live in big houses in town and drive Escalades while the common fN lives in a shack.
Those dorks are grand standing.They are in it for the money,pure and simple.
I remember fishing salmon on the Kispiox river when a couple of thugs with facemasks told us to leave or pay them $100.They cleared out when my buddy picked up the 12 gauge bear gun.They are so far out of the reality of the real world,the economy is shot to hell up there,no jobs,no industry.
They are just looking to get some more free money.I hope the Gov. stomps on them HARD.But I ain`t holding my breath.

[CanuckShooter]

Check out who bought the canvasses on the wagons at the Stampede. You will find that T'su Tsina and Heart Lake First Nations Construction paid big bucks for a canvas. The chief of Heart Lake owns the company, having started it with band funds, paid all of the expenses from taxpayer money(band funds), kept the income for himself & family, and continues to make some big bucks, while the rest of the rez lives in squalour!!! CanuckShooter & Mb-MBR put that in the ceremonial pipe, mixed with slough grass & willow leaves and have the "ceremonial toke" celebrating mooniow support!!!!!


While you put out this information about canvas [of all things] Heart Lake First Nation is doing business with EnCana to the tune of millions of dollars.


"A signing ceremony took place on Wednesday, June 22 at EnCana Place, to celebrate a new business partnership between EnCana Corporation and Heart Lake First Nation.

In the partnership, EnCana commits to three years of contracts to Heart Lake. The revenues are to be used for the purchase of construction equipment, worth $2 million, which will be contracted by EnCana for activities at the nearby Foster Creek Thermal Recovery Project.""

[Mb-MBR]

Check out who bought the canvasses on the wagons at the Stampede. You will find that T'su Tsina and Heart Lake First Nations Construction paid big bucks for a canvas. The chief of Heart Lake owns the company, having started it with band funds, paid all of the expenses from taxpayer money(band funds), kept the income for himself & family, and continues to make some big bucks, while the rest of the rez lives in squalour!!! CanuckShooter & Mb-MBR put that in the ceremonial pipe, mixed with slough grass & willow leaves and have the "ceremonial toke" celebrating mooniow support!!!!!

No need to ridicule my religion, if I said anything about yours and your holy water, I'd probably get banned.

[pikeslayer22]

http://energeticcity.ca/article/news/2014/06/20/premier-christy-clark-and-atlagas-sign-lng-letter-of-intent-in-dawson-creek

[Mb-MBR]

Sigh.....Remember Oka,where the fn`s killed a cop and were never charged?I lived in Hazelton then,where the gitskan are telling everyone to leave now.Lived there for 17 years.Blockades of logging roads,death threats to white loggers families,arsons,vandalism...
The chiefs and band councils have long been thieves of their own people there.9 million dollars go missing but the top 1% live in big houses in town and drive Escalades while the common fN lives in a shack.
Those dorks are grand standing.They are in it for the money,pure and simple.
I remember fishing salmon on the Kispiox river when a couple of thugs with facemasks told us to leave or pay them $100.They cleared out when my buddy picked up the 12 gauge bear gun.They are so far out of the reality of the real world,the economy is shot to hell up there,no jobs,no industry.
They are just looking to get some more free money.I hope the Gov. stomps on them HARD.But I ain`t holding my breath.

Sounds like the rest of Canada....cannot deny corruption exists at some leadership levels but refuse to believe all are corrupt. As for the "rez warriors" as Chief Louis calls them, they cannot defend their positions in an articulate fashion and usually resort to the "R" word and what people to "go back from you cam from", ask them why and they'll say "because".

[Winch101]

Don't go all thin skinned on us now .....all religions are ridiculed on here .
We are inter denominational in that regard . I see our esteemed leader
David Chartrand is in the news again , tax evasion .
I've always leaned more to the French side of the familly , I'm kinda
Catholic and métis by convenience like most of us . I prefer to be
Detested for who I am ,than what I stand for ....I conceded a long time ago
That the poor maligned native was no longer innocent but had for the
Most part larceny in his heart . Seeking his just deserts ,resentment
Driven a sad human being . Preyed on by his own corrupt government and kind
An outcast in his own land . But the list of how these people have helped
Themselves In the past is pretty short . Their downfall will be that they
Placed their trust
In people like Crawling Weasel ( Bob Rae ) and a
Multitude of White Lawyers . And who among us hasn't paid for
That stupidity

[Kurt505]

Then you will have a FN ISIS or HAMAS....sure hope whitey doesn't make the fatal error of encouraging that to happen. I can just see the missiles flying over Ottawa.....:thinking-006: Things can get ugly real fast.



Just when I think you couldn't possibly come up with anything more whacked, you go any totally redeem yourself. After reading your posts I find it surprising you find your way home every day.

I don't think you're helping out your peoples image, if that's your intent? If anything you're helping to build a case for "whitey" as you like to call them.

[Winch101]

I must have missed the part where Canuck came Out so to speak .

You mean I have labouring under the misconception that He is just

A BC interior white guy Hippy , with a penchant for world destruction

Theories .... Whodathunk ?

[Team Anzac]

Reminds of walking past Willow Square as a kid.:fighting0074:

[Kurt505]

Reminds of walking past Willow Square as a kid.:fighting0074:

Talk about heightened awareness of your surroundings. Same thing only on a larger scale.

[unclebuck]

No need to ridicule my religion, if I said anything about yours and your holy water, I'd probably get banned.

I do not ridicule anyone's religion. It just seems strange to me that when our "indigenous Canadians" have no more than a lawn mower, they can snag a big job with the likes of Cenovus, Statoil, or Devon. A mooniow who has a rather large spread of equipment does not get the opportunity to bid on a construction job with them. The job may be out for bids, but the whities receive no consideration. It is "awarded" because there would be a whole reserve full of bellyaching happening. I have been there!!!!

[claystone]

I do not ridicule anyone's religion. It just seems strange to me that when our "indigenous Canadians" have no more than a lawn mower, they can snag a big job with the likes of Cenovus, Statoil, or Devon. A mooniow who has a rather large spread of equipment does not get the opportunity to bid on a construction job with them. The job may be out for bids, but the whities receive no consideration. It is "awarded" because there would be a whole reserve full of bellyaching happening. I have been there!!!!

Most often when a company does business with a band an agreement is made to employ band members, from construction companies to labourers, nothing new there. I take it that if good ol UB were to get a contract on reserve his veiw would change? Not likely!