What do you think of penned elk hunts.....is it for you?

[grandzillaa]

I was reading about a man from Yorkton Sask. who has to pay $12,160 in fines and court costs. Anyhow this man guided 6 US residents on penned elk hunts in Manitoba,--- where these kinds of hunts are now illegal. Penned hunts have been illegal in Manitoba since 2002.

Now it is still legal in Saskatchewan. Should penned hunts be banned altogether or are you okay with it? Just curious on how you feel about the subject.:)

[FisherPotch]

I have a feeling this will be a one sided subject. I for one am not a fan of penned hunts. Saskabush is too tolerant of this kind of crap.

[Some Good]

I dont mined it if your handicaped and are limited its a good way to hunt .

[prairieboy]

I don't consider shooting an animal in a small enclosure a hunt.To me a hunt is where the animal has a chance to escape.

[Dick284]

Considering that Boone and Crocket deem these types of hunts as not fair chase.
So what ya getting out of it, a big rack shot in a unfair chase enviroment. Yup I really wanna have that critter hagin on my wall, so I can BS all my friends as to how great of hunt it was.
Makes one wonder what sort of mental make up these sort of fellows are.
And with all the CWD troubles in Sakabush, it leaves me to ask how much longer are they gonna be allowed.

[BeerSlayer1]

There was an excellent series of articles on ethics and high fence hunting etc in North American Whitetail a few years back. If you have access to the back issues, I reccomend reading them.

I don't consider shooting an animal in a small enclosure a hunt. Ok, I'll stir..... does this mean a medium enclosure is OK?

[sheep hunter]

Definitely not for me but I guess each to their own. My big problem isn't with the penned hunts themselves but the potetial problems that keeping animals behind fences can cause for wildlife.

[varmitr]

i see absolutely no problem with it. its not my cup o tea
the hunter (for lack of a better term) should have the wiring in there melon inspected. if they feel the need to brag about it. from what ive seen of it, its nothing more than a weekend retreat to shoot something . Just a reminder, the hi fence is to keep the infected ones out...
do we also condemn stocked trout ponds or releasing pheasants to hunt???
the one place i know, the operation is first class and the pen is one thousand acres in size.
oh we better not include the so called wild boar hunts either!!

[sheep hunter]

Just a reminder, the hi fence is to keep the infected ones out...

I'm thinking that is open for some debate....game farms have been anything but free of disease over the years.

[Rob Miskosky]

Just a reminder, the hi fence is to keep the infected ones out...

There is a whole world of scientific information out there regarding disease when animals are highly congregated. Varmitr, you should do some research before posting such nonsense.

[prairieboy]

Ok, I'll stir..... does this mean a medium enclosure is OK?

The second statement of my post indicates that in order for me to consider it a hunt,the animal must have a chance to escape.If the enclosure is large enough and offers suitable cover to allow the animal a good chance to escape,I could consider it hunting.Then again that would depend on whether the animals live like wild animals or whether they are fed from feeders,and are treated like domestic animals,and have little fear of humans..

[Duk Dog]

A real tough and touchy subject. My personal feeling for starters regardless of how I feel about canned hunts has to do with diseases like CWD. My opinion is that no matter what one thinks of canned hunts, if they are a cause or a contributor, and a threat of these diseases in our wildlife - than there is no place for them.

[razadp]

To some extent - yes it depends on the size of the pen. I took a water buffalo in a "pen" - 10 miles by 5 miles area. 32000 acres. I certainly consider it fair chase, after all it took 4 days to find it.

I would not consider rifle hunting on 1 section, 640 acres, 1 square mile, to be 'fair chase'. Its too easy to get within range with that limitation. But with a bow? maybe. Are the animals at feed stations? or eating what grows naturally? If there are a few dozen wild boar, eating natural vegetation, not at feed stations, and using bow or crossbow, then I'd be OK.

Anything shot from a feed station I'd say is not real hunting, whether theres a fence or not.

Others will have different levels of difficulty that they consider 'free enough' or 'difficult enough' to be fair chase.

[nafegavas]

I'm all for making a buck, but don't call it hunting. If this practice affects wild herds, it should be stopped tout de suite(toot sweet).

[Grizzly Adams]

NO, other than the ethical standards we set ourselves, accepting this kind of Hunt undermines all the arguments we make in favorof our sport, to the anti hunting crowd.
Grizz

[varmitr]

with all due respect Rob, maybe i should do the research, but, one can keep researching until you get the results that satisfy the intended POV. Im not defending this industry, by any means, but i will support this or any entrepeneurs right to do it. this is as much about the morality and ethics of the activity. In this case, the data just happens to coincide with the moral majority. maybe the whole industry needs a watchdog from an outside source.
even stocked trout ponds have stringent guidelines to prevent cross contamination with wild stock

i read this topic to be on hunt ranchs, not game farms.
Im defining hunt ranch is were a specific animal(s) is brought for a client and 'hunted' in the 'wild' enclosure. the hunt farm has low resident critter population when the so-called 'season' is over.
and a game farm, many elk/deer in close quarters, a penned area, fed like cows, A.I.ed, handling facility, much the same as cattle in a feed lot.

I have to ask, wouldnt (diseases) be present in the immediate wild ungulates surrounding every game farm in alberta?

[Lazy Ike]

I think it's pretty short sighted for hunters to support pet-shoots. Disease and ethics aside, if you open that door where a land owner can throw up a fence and charge people to hunt, how long before other land owners start suggesting that perhaps they could also charge for access to low fenced areas? And who could blaim them? One big mouthed drunk "cowboy" recently was bragging about how much an outfitter is paying for exclusive access to a local ranch. He named the outfitter but I did not hear which ranch.

[sheep hunter]

You might want to pass that info along to F&W Ike...that is a crime and you do make a very good point about putting a value on wildlife.

Yes animals in and out of enclosures do carry disease but as Rob pointed out, you start concentrating them and disease spreads and manifests much quicker. The fences are definitely there to keep tame critters from getting out...... not as you stated. The cases of game farms/ranches being desimated by disease are all too common. TB...blue tongue and now CWD are all real threats to wild populations.

Even with larger ranches, there is typically a secondary farm somewhere that raises the critters for release. And these places are typically where you see the animals concentrated. Game farming and hunt ranches typically work hand in hand.

[Lazy Ike]

SH, I mentioned it to an officer but as he said, the outfitter probably won't admit to paying (if in fact he is).

[sheep hunter]

Ya true enough Ike...too bad that stuff goes on. It really gives the legitimate outfitters a bad name.

[walleyes]

Deffinetly not for me,,, and I hope I can say without offending anyone but I do not consider an animal taken in a canned hunt to even be a hunted animal no matter how big the fence.. And I will say I have no respect for anyone that does such a hunt....

[101sonny]

Deffinetly not for me,good for you wally


I will say I have no respect for anyone that does such a hunt.... You have to ask your self how many would really care what you think if you respect them or not :rolleyes if someone wants to hunt like that and (ITS LEGAL) Power to them .;) { If} i wanted to hunt like that i for one wouldnt care what someone else had to say.

[Okotokian]

Depends on how big the "pen" is... if it was, say, 100 square miles, I might be OK with it. :lol Otherwise, forget it.

[Re: What d]

you do make a very good point about putting a value on wildlife.

We already went down that slippery slope when we allowed the guide permit allocations.

Placing a commercial value on wildlife and wildlife industry was the worst thing we as hunters have allowed. It is only a matter of time before Texas style paid access is with us in Alberta. I am not done fighting, but I know I am losing.

[sheep hunter]

The whole access issue is something that Morton is trying to address right now and last time I heard him speak he said there would never be paid access under his watch but he is working on a plan so hunters have better acccess to private property. It will be interesting to see what he comes up with but he mentioned a few models out of places like Utah.

[HUNTNUT]

Totally against it-regardless of the size of the pen.

[.]

I see alot of people saying "I don't like it no matter the size of the pen"

To those people I ask if they hunt or support the hunt in WMU936? Why do I ask? Cause it is a high wire enclosure that the animals can't escape from. Its called the Blackfoot Rec Area and its WMU936.

Not saying that I support hunt ranches but when people hunt one in Alberta and call it a fantasitc hunt with tales to tell I find it a bit hippocritical.

Like someone else says we have stocked trout farms, "wild" boar hunts, and pheasant shooting preserves. I really don't see any difference personally.

[Winch101]

I draw the analagy of going to Safeway and picking out

a good roast . Both are equally as sporting , picking out

the roast is probably considered demeaning and beneath

real men , but shooting a caged animal is not .

If there ever was foder for anti-everything , this is it.

Greed pure and simple , there is no other creature on earth

that will sell his soul as readily as man .

Kinda makes me wish that those two wide eyed imbeciles

at the door yesterday morning were right , that everybody is going to get their comeuppance ..

Remember what Pogo said ... I have seen the enemy ,
they is us.....

[winged1]

'conservation' groups where some of the earliest efforts at capturing, holding, and transporting wildlife, and may likely be the creatures of the epi center of CWD.

The vast majority of North Americans justify the mass culturing of animal stocks, which include killing in confined quarters, as 'a great meal'.

I hunt wildlife for my own reasons, and will continue as long as I am physically able. Deterents to these efforts are largely resource development, and I would hate to see the day that a trophy only becomes available through a 'canned hunt'.

[straitshooter]

Yup. got to agree with most of yah's, it's not for me,but as one mentioned in this thread,i might agree to something like if you have an extreme disablity,then i might go for it but conditions would apply,like how much land if enclosed,would the animal have to escape the hunter,we must always think of the person who cannot do what most of can do,as long as it is ehticall.for both.

[packhuntr]

Its the wild stocks that are of concern. These animals are up against enough obstacles as it is. Game farming/hunting, goes against everything I was ever brought up to believe in. Like many, I grew up with OUR outdoors, and continue to grow WITH IT. I think the word ethics gets thrown around like a cheap phrase, so I wont use it. And for the people out there claiming, its just great for handicapped folks and such, I believe they are missing out. If I judged my outdoor experiences on succeses only, I wouldnt hunt, period. For me personally, I just couldnt participate in such.

keep a strain on er.

[Rob Miskosky]

Game farming and paid-for hunting are two of the worst scenarios to ever take place in recent memory. Putting a price on the head of wildlife tarnishes that wildlife and makes it little more than an object of monetary value, not the truly valuable, wonderful creatures that they are. Paid-for hunting behind fences is absolute nonsense and should never be legislated into this province. Ralph Klein was a lot of things, but even he valued the role our wildlife plays in this province. It is not a role that should be taken lightly, nor should it ever be dismantled and placed into a system where the almighty dollar determines the value of that wildlife.

Those of you that feel hunting behind fences and the private ownership of wildlife and the sale of that wildlife for monetary gains is okay, should re-think your reasoning. All that we have accomplished in the restoration of our wildlife could be dismantled by allowing said practices. It was not that many years ago where our wildlife was in dire straits and it was solid conservation policies that put an end to these types of practices that brought our wildlife back from the brink of disaster.

Game farming and behind-the-fence hunting goes against everything we as outdoorsmen and women fight for. Why would you even consider it?

Perhaps Dr. Valerius Geist said it best in his book "Wildlife Conservation Policy."

"There is a crisis in conservation. It is not being recognized for what it is by a good many who have the most to lose, the wildlife profession included. The crisis resides in the current dismantling of policies and laws that have nurtured, protected, and restored wildlife continent-wide during the last 70 years. Who shall own and benefit from wildlife has been a central question to the long struggle. At work are historic forces, that, should we allow them to go unchecked, will once again see wildlife a hostage of private ownership, as it all too frequently has in the past. Policies that legalize trafficking in dead wildlife and paid hunting are diametrically opposed to the policies proven successful in wildlife conservation in North America." - Dr. Valerius Geist

[Tree Guy]

I am a hunter. I am proud to be a hunter. I hunt and kill wild animals. Fenced animals, regardless of the size of the area are not wild animals, and for anyone to deny the existance of feed stations on these properties is dilussional. They do nothing but give further ammunition to anti-hunting/gun organizations.

As bad as their implications are in regards to cross-contaminating wild populations, their public perception implications are even worse than that. I personally regard canned hunts unethical for 99% of the hunting world. All they are doing is hurting us in the public eye.

[Jamie Hunt]

Good topic.
I have batted this one around in my head for a LONG time.
AT first blush I say NO WAY! But then I think what about one of those pig hunts they have here in Alberta. If I was asked to go, I would probably say yes. But then I haven’t gone out of my way to book one.
Look at Africa, some of those Game farms are the size of a Township. But then as I look to book a hunt for my 40th B-Day I find myself saying I don’t want any fences.
I still am not sure where I stand on this whole issue (From a Hunters perspective).
Tiny caged hunts are WRONG and from the sounds of it dangerous to the animals. But then when is big, big enough?
It’s not a Black and White issue for me.

Jamie

[Lazy Ike]

Jamie, alot of people get hung up on the encloser size. Indeed if A guy fenced off 6 sections of land it would represent a viable piece of land to sustain a small herd of Elk and approximate a "fair chase" but as soon as the fence goes up that chunk of land is no longer available to ALL the wild animals that would other wise access it. And of course the door is open for the next guy who only has a 1/4 to fence and the next guy who only has 40 acres.

[winged1]

land owners already have the ability to 'turn off' hunting. They don't require fencing to do it.

Is there truely a difference if I take a penned animal and release it, only to be tracked down and shot, or take the same animal before it's 'released'. No difference to the animal. The thrill of the 'shot' will remain, although getting to the shot will be different. To each his own. The other concern is having that penned animal wander the wilds and mingling with other wild stock. I say stop there, keep it penned, and have it shot at home.

That then comes down to penned stock. Many say erradicate, and I say fine, how?. Allowing the public to come in and shoot for a fee is reasonable. Where does that go? Once your stock is consumed, your permit expires. Now there will be the argument that certain permit holders are skilled and knowledgable in the management of stocks. Is this a problem?, maybe 'conservation' can learn something.

[davem]

I have done a penned hunt, sort of... A friend who I used to work for is a turkey farmer and raises a lot of exotic animals, one day when I was there he needed to cull a few fallow deer so he handed the gun to me and pointed out which two he wanted culled. It was a lot more fun than scrubbing turkey drinkers but it definately wasn't hunting. Did use shooting skills but this was a small pen and I would never pay to do something like that, I actually was being paid to do it. I would consider any penned hunt shooting, not hunting animals.

By the way a .22 will drop a deer incredibly fast with a head shot, surprising how quickly the body just drops to the ground.

Dave

[101sonny]

By the way a .22 will drop a deer incredibly fast with a head shot, surprising how quickly the body just drops to the ground.I can honestly say i dont know where you are going with this last comment.:(

[davem]

"I can honestly say i dont know where you are going with this last comment."

Well, I was describing a situation were I was shooting some deer, I used a .22 and I had never head shot a deer before (or since) and I was surprised at how the little .22 dropped the animals, dead before they hit the ground, I know people kill cattle with a .22 with the same results but had never seen it. So in retelling the story I was adding some context that I though people might find interesting. I wasn’t going anywhere with it.

Dave

[.]

I still see alot of people going around the subject. No one yet has answered my questions.

What about WMU936? What about pheasant hunting? What about fishing at a stocked pond? Are not all these things penned hunts?

No one seems to want to tackle the issue that there already is a hunt farm in Alberta and its run by the Government.

[FiveO]

I read in a publication this month about the long term effects of CWD. Game farms are the prime source for the CWD and the spread which is inevidible and will eventually change things forever. We may not see all the effects in our lifetimes but if things dont change today it will be a pretty baren wilderness 50 years from now.

[sheep hunter]

Not sure that I see the relationship with a stocked pond as you are fishing and the fish decide whether to bite or not and all lakes pretty much prevent fish from escaping. The pheasant thing...I guess it depend how it's done but again there is no fence preventing their escape. WMU937 I've never hunted....

[Lazy Ike]

land owners already have the ability to 'turn off' hunting. They don't require fencing to do it.

Yes they use a thing called a "No Tresspass Sign" it's usually effective in keep hunters out but has no effect on the wild animals that use the area. An 8' fence in a wildlife corridor however would stop game from accessing water, food or breeding grounds and would prove devistating to the population and ecosystem as a whole.

Is there truely a difference if I take a penned animal and release it, only to be tracked down and shot, or take the same animal before it's 'released'. No difference to the animal.

Nope they're basically cattle and since we don't shoot cattle I guess you don't support shooting domesticated Cervids either or you want to shoot cows??

The thrill of the 'shot' will remain, although getting to the shot will be different. To each his own.

I guess you do want to shoot cows. I personally would find no pleasure in it but as you say "to each his own".

The other concern is having that penned animal wander the wilds and mingling with other wild stock. I say stop there, keep it penned, and have it shot at home

If you could contain the diseases that are a REAL concern you might have an argument there.

Now there will be the argument that certain permit holders are skilled and knowledgable in the management of stocks. Is this a problem?, maybe 'conservation' can learn something.


Who in hell is going to argue that game farming (Which is legendary for being poorly managed and regulated even worse) has anything to teach conservation OTHER than: Don't turn cervids into a commodityand concentrate them in high numbers in fenced areas?

[packhuntr]

Not sure how you can throw pheasants, and fish in a lake, or fish in a river, into the same pot there fella. Hatcheries raise many fish, and release them. Are walleye that have been stocked into Newell providing a canned hunt style fishing trip. As far as roosters, where on Alberta soil have you seen a containment with a chicken wire ceiling that is being used as a hunting ground??????? Wow..... As far as the zone thing goes, never had anything to do with it, and not familiar. I guess this zone is what it is. Appears as though this Alberta turf is being managed like any other MU, so be thankful for that, and enjoy what ALBERTA has to offer to regular folks. But as far as the rest is concerned, I think your dreaming. I cant believe how many people are on the other side of this fence...........

keep a strain on er.

[packhuntr]

and to the comment; "Mabey conservation can learn something", it just might be time to stop sniffing glue.

[packhuntr]

The more I look back and read, the wilder it gets. The boar hunts being talked about, are no different than going out to a pig pen and whacking a hog. You know, I grew up farming and ranching, and I guarantee, if there are 30 head of heifers in that wooded quarter, I will be able to find every one. Just a matter of time. ITS FENCED!!!!!! IT DOESNT MATTER HOW BIG IT IS!!!!!!!!! I had a dog I just had to put down. Mabey if I had penned it, someone would like to have "hunted" it. I bet the field photos would be great. She was a collie. Might have been tough to place that arrow, with all that black hair and all. She had a real shifty personality, could have been a great hunt, hey..........Pretty concerned, it aint lookin too good for my kid.

[101sonny]

I had a dog I just had to put down. Mabey if I had penned it, someone would like to have "hunted" it. I bet the field photos would be great. She was a collie. Might have been tough to place that arrow, with all that black hair and all. She had a real shifty personality, could have been a great hunt, Hey pacman what angle are you trying to portray your dog please i guess if my cockatial get's sick i should get the 410 .ready realease him and shoot your bs talk about your dog dosent wash with me.sorry but hunt your dog please you should have more respect for your family pet.:x

[straitshooter]

Rob,are you saying,because of our thoughts on person's who have a extreme disablity,that we should rethink our thought's,I have always believed it's for everyone who enjoy's or enjoyed the hunting sport, maybe you can enlight me on this. Hunting is for only the for the able ones???

[Devils Gun]

I've been reading the arguments here,and thinking about high fences being penned hunts .If I remember correctly isn't there a high fence around wainwright. Is this then a penned hunt ?

[sheep hunter]

Nope...no game-proof fence around Wainwright...the critters come and go as they please.

[Re: game f]

The fence around Wainwright was game proof till the neighboring landowners put carefully placed holes in the fence. Nice blind in the trees, alfalfa field .... hunting at it's toughest.

I shoot my own beef when I want one to eat. I shoot them in the field where I find them when it is time to butcher. Did the same with a free range pig last November. Am planning to do the same with a buffalo this summer. The fellow wants $400 for one, pick the one you want and take it home. I passed up on the $200 cow elk a couple of years back because the freezer was full and I didn't need the meat. A lot easier to shoot one of those where they stand in the field than trying to run them into the corral/chute/truck and transport to slaughter.

Private ownership of native wildlife animals is wrong. What we or anyone else does with domestic/exotic stock is literally their business. We need to pass rules preventing the private ownership of Elk, Deer, Moose etc. in this province. If they are on your property it is still property of the crown. Period.

[Rob Miskosky]

Rob,are you saying,because of our thoughts on person's who have a extreme disablity,that we should rethink our thought's,I have always believed it's for everyone who enjoy's or enjoyed the hunting sport, maybe you can enlight me on this. Hunting is for only the for the able ones???

Now your putting words into my mouth. I wasn't referring to the disabled when I posted what I did. Not sure how you gathered that?

What are my thoughts on disabled hunting now that you ask? I'm not sure because I have never been confronted with the situation. But now that I think about it, just how disabled are we talking here? I have a neighbour who's daughter is severely disabled, a gun in her hand is not an option. So, how disabled are we talking here?

I have to assume that you are suggesting disabled means physically-unable, not mentally-unable. Thus, I will assume you are talking about people who have the mental capacity to understand right from wrong, and the ability to realize what is in the best interests of our wildlife populations. If so, then I have to wonder if putting a disabled person in a hunting situation behind a fence for a paid-for guaranteed kill of a fenced wild animal like a deer or elk is a good thing. Maybe it is, but there has to be other ways to take a disabled person hunting in a natural surrounding where the purpose of the hunt is exactly what we all live for. It's not about the kill as I'm sure you are aware. It's about all the rest of it... our surroundings, the shear beauty of being in wild places with wild creatures. Shouldn't the disabled person who wishes to hunt be afforded that opportunity, not just the opportunity to kill a fenced-in, wild animal that surely doesn't belong where it is?

I hope I don't open up a can of worms here because that is certainly not my intent. I hope that everybody, disabled or not, that wishes to hunt is granted that opportunity. I just have to wonder if there are better options for the disabled. Surely there must be?

[Rob Miskosky]

No one seems to want to tackle the issue that there already is a hunt farm in Alberta and its run by the Government.

I'll take a stab at your question, at least the last one, the pheasant/fish suggestions don't require a response.

The Cooking Lake Recreation Area is a 97 sq km area. It was created for human use and contains pathways, day-use areas etc. You are correct when you say that it is fenced because it is. However, studies have shown that some animals do come and go through these fences in many areas - coyotes digging holes, disrepair etc. It is a HUGE area. It is used for the study of wildlife populations and these poulations are kept in check by, yes, hunting, and the dispersal of animals like elk to other areas when populations require it. Hunting here is used as a management tool because it has to be.

If we want to create areas where the non-hunting public can view wildlife in a natural surrounding, well, Cooking Lake is it. But it is also beneficial to the study of wildlife due to its shear size.

Show me a hunt farm of this magnitude and I might subscribe, provided it didn't cost me more than the price of a hunting licence and the licence was being used for the management of the species in that particular given area.

Profiting from wildlife via the game farm or hunt farm is wrong for many reasons, including disease. Always has been, always will be.

[FisherPotch]

I have to admit i'm a little surprized how much support penned hunts are getting. CWD is of the utmost importance. Penned hunts would be a step in the wrong direction in my opinion.

My take on dissabilities. People with dissabilities take pride in being as capable of doing any thing that the next guy/girl can, with a handicap. They are strong people and very few of them want things made too easy for them. We all know at times there are obsticles that make life tough. Afterall the bush isn't wheelchair accessable. Its overcoming life's obsticles that makes us who we are. We as outdoorsman/women should put our heads together and find another way to make the outdoors more accessable to those less fortunate. I just don't think that penned hunts are the answer.

Are there any programs/charities/groups in alberta that are devoted to such a cause?

[live2bout]

I hunt WMU 936 yearly for big game. Yes it has hiking trails cut through it's 96 km2 and is surrounded by a high fence. It is by no means a canned hunt as a look at hunter success rates published by the province attests. Successful hunters at Blackfoot put many miles of walking and, if successful, pulling through some of the densest poplar, willow, blowdown, beaverfall and slough infested country around. No vehicle access except to the staging areas. I have personnally witnessed a group of four elk jump over the fence clear and have seen numerous low spots deer were using to cross in and out under the fence.
It is ridiculous for anyone to believe that a natural area this large full of native big game animals could be compared in any way to the penned hunts this discussion started over. Maybe some of the guys who think this isn't a truly sporting hunt should park their trucks and quads and take a walk out at Blackfoot and see how quickly they can corner dinner - remember to bring some friends cause it can be a long pull out.

[sheep hunter]

I passed up on the $200 cow elk a couple of years back because the freezer was full and I didn't need the meat. A lot easier to shoot one of those where they stand in the field than trying to run them into the corral/chute/truck and transport to slaughter.

I think you'd be breaking the law paying for and shooting an elk on a private farm, even if it was just for meat.

[winged1]

Penned hunts don't make sense when you have wild access, and here in western Canada we are blessed. Not having wild 'access' changes the arguments. Disabilities fall into limited access.

For those that are looking for further challanges, exotics require containment.

Many of the arguments here originate from one's personal needs. Few in this province have a need to have thier quarry contained. Yet, when they do, the arguments change dramatically.

Stag farming down south has become somewhat of a lucrative business. It is patrionized by some pretty lofty people, and subsequently has demand.

In South America, a small group of herdsmen tend a species of goat, which being pretty knarly, has some hunting appeal. These are unfenced herds that traverse the elevated meadows. When thier 'manager' books a hunt, the herdsmen will drive the largest rams toward the awaiting hunters. The ones that escape simply return to the herd.

Who in hell is going to argue that game farming (Which is legendary for being poorly managed and regulated even worse) has anything to teach conservation OTHER than: Don't turn cervids into a commodityand concentrate them in high numbers in fenced areas?

It's simple, they work together, or better yet, conservation runs the canned hunt, as an educational tool for new hunters, generating revenues from 'big' hunts.

In my mind, this big ram lottery tag is crap. It's far worse than a well managed hunt farm where 'conservation' overpops go for revenue generation.

[straitshooter]

Rob,I was referring to extreme disablity's,didn't leave much of an example because I didn't want to open a can of worm's on the subject,but I HAVE FOR YRS gave my time to help those who are handicapped ,some born that way other's had accident's or their health does'not allow them to do what most of us can do.Like I said in the thread,there would be restrictions,but we all should think about it because one day it just might happen to one of us,I remember my dad and when his health got the best of him we all helped in making his life just a bit easier,till his last day's,so I was just trying to say I might consider it,and the qoute being I might consider it.

[tyu33]

Just wanted to comment on WMU936. I've been applying for an Elk draw there and should get one either next year or the year after. I've NEVER been in favour of penned hunts, and although there is a fence around the WMU, I didn't really consider it a penned hunt. I know there are no guarentees and it is a difficult WMU to hunt, being a large area with no feeding stations and limited access (no ATV's or vehicles), I don't think that it falls into your "typical" penned hunt. This may all sound a bit hypocritical , but I was hoping to hear more from people that have hunted or are planning to hunt that WMU, and get thiers views on this subject. I'm struggling a bit with this now whether I should keep applying or to give it up. My goal was to try to take an archery Elk when I get drawn.

[Goal's]

{I'm struggling a bit with this now whether I should keep applying or to give it up. }I wouldnt give it up your so close to your draw and I hear elk is very tasty.:b

{My goal was to try to take an archery Elk when I get drawn.}I would have to say Dont loose sight of your goal maybe bigbore can give up a hot spot for you.;)

[live2bout]

Stick to your draw. 936 is not a canned hunt. The ungulates are wild, born not raised. There is no supplemental feeding. The animals can and do both enter and leave the park. This hunt is totally fair chase, check the hunter success rates.
Don't let guys who are stuck on the fence issue cheat you out of the experience. The fence exists around Blackfoot and Elk Island to preserve the country in it's natural state and to prevent the animals that utilize the prime habitat it offers from being a nuisance to the farmers surrounding the area. The same guys questioning whether Blackfoot is a canned hunt would not question sitting a crop field next to heavy cover that they knew a herd of elk was using (nor should they) but somehow have a problem with people chasing elk around 96 km2. I have hunted one square mile for several days running and been surprised at the amount of new country you find when you explore nooks and crannies. Cougers have recently re-established breeding population in this accessible wilderness, enjoy the area and get a big bull!

[Shedcrazy]

Over 3/4 of the fence around CFB Wainwirght is 4 strand..the rest is an old 6 foot fence that is down in many areas.....It is very far from being a penned hunt...


I wish people would know more about what they are providing as "facts" before commenting....

[.]

All I am saying is that there are users here that have said "no matter how big a fenced area they dont agree." I brought up 936 because it is fenced. I know it intimately. It is 97 sq/km, its also a grazing reserve, lots of oil activity and it is a day use park.

I just wanted peoples prespective, especially those that said "no pen no matter how large".

[razadp]

If fair chase is to involve degree of difficulty and skill for the hunt, then what about all the farmers field deer. I shot a wild deer on an ordinary farm (grain and cattle mixed op), sitting in an plastic beach chair out in the corner of a forest, waiting for the deer to walk across a field where the owners friend knew he went every morning.

My effort, pulling the body out 70 yards to the truck.

I know a huge number of Alberta deer are shot this way every year.

How is that less of an honest hunt then spending 4 days wandering through forests and swamps looking for a bull on a "hunting preserve / cattle op" of 50 square miles.

I say the size of the pen does matter. And just because MOST game farms use feeders does not mean ALL of them do.

Also, there are 3 threads in this board discussing ways to bait bears. How is feeding an animal this way better than feeding in a pen. Either way the purpose is to put the animal in a predictable place, so the person doesn't have to personally inspect every brush and blowdown.

[FisherPotch]

Cwd is a big factor with the feeders. Baiting bears is different. But just the same i have about as much respect for shooting a bear off a barrel of rotting meat as i do the penned hunt idea. Wmu 936 and wainwright seem pretty cosher too me. If the game can come and go as they please and there are no feedstations then the game are wild to me.

[packhuntr]

I will disagree with both of you. High fences are, ya, its true, to keep game in. Not cool no matter how many of you stand together and argue against facts. As far as baiting black bear, pretty controversial, even amongst hunters. I do bait, and advocate it. I would prefer spring bears in my camp, came off bait, {we are just outdoorsman, Not outfitters}. Reason being, we are able to identify if a bear is a sow or boar. If a sow, does she have cubs? Some times it takes time to tell, as she may tree cubs before entering a site, it can just take time sometimes. Bottom line is, you have done due dilligence. This versus a spring hunt where a black is spotted down a cutline at 150yds, and someone throws some lead at it, without knowing if there are cubs standing just inside the bush. Not to say all spot and stalks go that way. I think enough said about how guys choose to hunt spring bear. In my eyes a bait hunt is indeed, just as ethical. Neither are wrong, and both are effective at helping to control bear numbers. but quit slamming baiters. There are reasons why SOME people do things. And by the way fellas, these bears coming into baits are not fenced. They come and go and do as they please.

[winged1]

I had a dog I just had to put down. Mabey if I had penned it, someone would like to have "hunted" it. I bet the field photos would be great. She was a collie. Might have been tough to place that arrow, with all that black hair and all. She had a real shifty personality, could have been a great hunt

Bait it, the results are the same.

[packhuntr]

Wing, you are quite a fella.

keep a strain on er.

[wapiti1]

Gentlemen;
Shooting an elk in a small private pen is not a hunt but a humane harvest of a valuble resource of high quality protien and antlers. Shooting an elk in Blackfoot Grazing Reserve which is totally high fenced is a hunt, from my perspective. Now the dilemma is where does the humane harvest stop and the hunting begin. I tend to lean to the idea that Game farmed elk should be humanely harvested, as for all intent and purpose they are livestock, not wildlife.
wapiti1

[grandzillaa]

Well I see we had some responce to this topic...thats good. I am like a number of you a penned hunt is not for me. Some say if it is a very large area that may be okay...maybe but they are still fenced in.

There are pheasent hunts ran by land owners...where do these hunts fit in?

[packhuntr]

Grand, there are fishing derbies put on by kinsman clubs. where do they fit in??? And there are hunts put on by outfitters, and by regular outdoorsman. Where do these hunts fit in. Bottom line, a pheasant hunt, isnt a canned hunt. I just dont see anything wrong with this. But im just human, and not always right, and this is only my oppinion.

[grandzillaa]

I just put that in there. As for a fishing derbie...well that most diffently is not the same. <blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Jamie put it this way: At 1st blush I say No Way! Then I think about one of those Pig hunts they have in Alberta. If I was asked to go, I would say yes. He end by saying it is not a black and white issue for me.<hr></blockquote>

He has a good point there. We won't go on a penned elk hunt but we will go on a penned pig hunt. Therefor I see his point it is not a black and white issue.

[packhuntr]

Ya, as much as im against said, i will admit, that is a tough one. I always wanted to shoot a pig, and suppose if I ever did, I would have to say, awesome shoot, not awesome hunt. In my mind there is a definate line.

[wapiti1]

The ethics of hunting is a very "plastic" set of rules. Atitudes change with time, opportunties and economics. Why not go for a pighunt in Texas? No wire fences. In Alberta costs are lower and maybe the experience might almost be the same in an Alberta pigpen?
wapiti1

[bruteforce2006]

I would not do one. Rich people do not like to lose, therefore their acomplishments are estimated in inches of antler not by the experience. It shows you where we have come from and where we are heading. People from the big cities consider 1000 acres as the "wild" and are paying for a gauranteed(sp) outdoor experience. It's only their fake world to live in and is far removed from mine. Or is it as they lay on their zebra couch and support the game/hunt farming industry the deer I hunt are running around with CWD and the one tag that I want to fill my deep freeze with may have uncertainties because of this. Is it the fault of the rich, is it the fault of the game farmer or the "outfitter" no. Diversify the Government stated you can help yourself don't stand with your hand out. Now you over paid politicians fiqure it out and fix it. You will get a pension one day the outdoorsmen will be left with the problem.

[varmitr]

So how would YOU define this topic of enclosure hunting:
> if the species is bred in capivity for the sole purpose of harvest, regardless of the type or size of enclosure. This pertains to fur, fish or feather.<
am i close here?
like the feral horse issue, a horse lover would never even consider sport hunting a horse...a dog/cat fancier would never consider hunting a dog/cat morally ethical...in this case a elk fanatic would consider anything other than waking to a frosty morning bugle to be a sin.
Could it be its almost as if the activity doesnt require enough work. it wasnt earned and therefore is cheating and it leaves a bitter taste in the romance of the hunt.

I tend to agree with JamieHunts theory on this. pigs yes. deer/elk I'll pass.

[Two Faced Theory]

I tend to agree with JamieHunts theory on this. pigs yes. deer/elk I'll pass. Sorry but Jamies So called Theory is two faced:\ No matter how you {WANT TO LOOK AT IT }there is still a fence but if that helps you sleep at night.:rolleyes

[grandzillaa]

Good point there varmitr. That may be why I haven't killed more wolfs or yokes...the fact I have 3 dogs. When I saw a yoke once 20 yards away I passed him up all because he caught a moose and his tail was waging. Yea I know your all laughing but at least I am honest.

Yet I may still get me a wolf or another yoke....my wife would be greatful if I did...make good feet warmers.:lol

[wapiti1]

The common thread in this debate is hunting whether in a pen or not. As we debate this issue we provide the anti-hunting lobby more and more "ammunition" to ban our sport. So what would be unethical with a sport hunt for horses?? They are considered by most of the world as a food or agricultural production animal not a pet. Sport hunting of horses on American National Wildlife refuges would provide for a management tool which would reduce the impacts of an over population of horses which is destroying the natural habitat on these refuges. My point is, hunting whether for pigs in a pen or elk in the "wilds" of the Rockies has become an unpalatable activity in the eyes of most of society. There is a very large need to educate the public on the values of hunting as a wildlife population and habitat management tool.