electrician apprenticeship wanted

[becoming-an-electrician]

Hi,

I recently had a career change. I am from Toronto and am looking into becoming an electrician, but I find it extremely hard these days to find someone that would apprentice me without any experience in the field. I have done some flooring and am good with using tools. Any information on how I can get into the field would be great. I have sent out tons of resumes to companies and have called up many different electricians, but again, no luck. If you guys know anybody or any company that is willing to take on an entry level electrician helper/apprentice that would be really helpful. I am willing to move anywhere in Canada.

[Dacotensis]

Hi,

I recently had a career change. I am from Toronto and am looking into becoming an electrician, but I find it extremely hard these days to find someone that would apprentice me without any experience in the field. I have done some flooring and am good with using tools. Any information on how I can get into the field would be great. I have sent out tons of resumes to companies and have called up many different electricians, but again, no luck. If you guys know anybody or any company that is willing to take on an entry level electrician helper/apprentice that would be really helpful. I am willing to move anywhere in Canada.

Generally the field apprenticeship in these parts involves carring a rifle or shotgun.
This is a hunting fishing and trapping web site afterall.

Good luck with your first post.
Keep this in mind.... Many Albertans are out of work right now.
I suspect you will have a difficult time breaking into the scene at this time with zero experience.

Is there no work in Ontario?

[becoming-an-electrician]

Generally the field apprenticeship in these parts involves carring a rifle or shotgun.
This is a hunting fishing and trapping web site afterall.

Good luck with your first post.
Keep this in mind.... Many Albertans are out of work right now.
I suspect you will have a difficult time breaking into the scene at this time with zero experience.

Is there no work in Ontario?

No, I don't think that there is a problem with finding work in Ontario... it's just that there is no work for entry level electrician apprentice. No one will hire you if you don't have any experience. I realize that this is a fishing and trapping website, but I saw many post regarding electrician and other fields so I thought I'd post something.

[C5Hines]

my biggest suggestion is to just pound the pavement. put a application out to every company that does electrical and follow up. if they don't call you then you call them.

if that doesn't work then look into a pre employment program. I know lakeland college in vermilion has one and im sure other trades schools do to. its 4 months long and you basically get your first year schooling and you get placed in a practicum at the end. if your any kind of a decent worker then they will keep you on.

best of luck to you man. don't get down if it doesn't happen right away, and when you get your opportunity make the most of it. if it stays like this then companies will get rid of a dud 3rd, 4th, year for a good 1st year.

also if you get the chance to choose try and get into residential to start. you'll get a better knowledge of how electrical works and most times you plan the circuits out of the go. commercial and industrial is planned out and you just follow a print.

[TBark]

I wish our electrician had an apprentice, or helper anyways.
Electrician charged me near $6k a few years back to Reno our kitchen.
The wife did go overboard I guess, dozen pot lights in the ceiling, double range wiring, warming drawer, under counter lights, hood fan, plugs everywhere.
Over the 80+ hrs it took him to do the job, 30% of the time he was up and down from the attic feeding wires to himself, a lot of expensive wasted motion that a helper could have assisted him with.
Good luck to you.

TBark

[222rem]

Most employers apprentice from people that are working for them not from outside .

Other then that I wish you good luck .

[NBFK]

Are you looking for oil and gas work or commercial residential?

[roger]

Start your own company and hire a master electrician hook up a house or two. Your employee can sign you up as the apprentice and the your still the boss.
:sHa_shakeshout:
Somehow it's probly not legal.

[Ozzzzz]

As an electrician myself, I think the best way to get an apprenticeship is to go to jobsites and talk to the foreman. Be willing to sweep floors and make coffee for a while before you actually become indentured.

Go for a walk with your resumes around new residential areas. The house with all the swearing coming out of it will most likely have the electricians roughing it in.

Make an appointment with your local government apprenticeship office... The consultants there might have an idea which REPUTABLE companies may be willing to take on a starter. (I can't stress enough, the company must be reputable)

Other than that, most tradespeople that I've met won't give a resume a second look if the haven't met the person belonging to the resume.

Good luck with your carreer change! I have never regretted it.

Ozz

[Ozzzzz]

Start your own company and hire a master electrician hook up a house or two. Your employee can sign you up as the apprentice and the your still the boss.
:sHa_shakeshout:
Somehow it's probly not legal.

Definitely not legal...

That being said, there are a lot of fly-by-night outfits that are doing just that. Back when I got my masters, the number of calls I got from apprentices starting up businesses was unreal.

[TIMWOLF]

my biggest suggestion is to just pound the pavement. put a application out to every company that does electrical and follow up. if they don't call you then you call them.

if that doesn't work then look into a pre employment program. I know lakeland college in vermilion has one and im sure other trades schools do to. its 4 months long and you basically get your first year schooling and you get placed in a practicum at the end. if your any kind of a decent worker then they will keep you on.

best of luck to you man. don't get down if it doesn't happen right away, and when you get your opportunity make the most of it. if it stays like this then companies will get rid of a dud 3rd, 4th, year for a good 1st year.

also if you get the chance to choose try and get into residential to start. you'll get a better knowledge of how electrical works and most times you plan the circuits out of the go. commercial and industrial is planned out and you just follow a print.

I am a journeyman electrician and telling you that this post is your best bet for landing a job in Alberta right now. Its a tough market to break into as someone with little experience as there are guys with experience looking for work right now.

In regards to the statement that residential will give you a better understanding of electrical. I would imagine that this is directly relating to a beginner like yourself, and in that case it works. House wiring is very basic when it comes to wiring and is a great place to start and learn the basics of simple switching and basic load distribution. What I will tell you further to this is that the potential for advanced learning will be greater in the industrial sector of the trade. When a guy gets into this aspect of the trade, especially in oil and gas if you choose to go that route, he will be introduced to VFDs, Electric Motors, Motor control components like starters, PLC's, Hazardous location wiring methods, and many other things that you might not get the chance to in residential or commercial.

One thing I can try to caution you about right from the start is that if you are lucky enough to land a job make sure you don't follow in the footsteps of so many guys I see around the oil and gas sector. If you get hired on as a first year you will most likely be selected to go on a cable pulling crew, grounding crew, tray builder, or general bitch. Its easy to fall into the rut of doing one thing, especially with the big companies where you are just a number, and carry out your apprenticeship as a one faceted guy with lots of experience doing only a few things. The problem with this is that you go through your four years of school and end up knowing not much more than the few things you were exposed to, essentially rendering you a journeyman cable puller etc. Its hard to put together a good marketable resume to advance when you don't have anything on it but tray building or cable pulling. Just food for thought.

Either way if you go to residential, commercial, or industrial you picked a good trade as it has many facets that will allow you to make a great living.

Keep in mid as well that an instrumentation ticket is also a very good one to have and works well with electrical ticket. So if you cannot get in as an electrician but as in instrument hand that would be a good way to get your foot in the door.

Good luck with your job hunt and keep at it.

[Tundra Monkey]

Move North Sir.....move North :)

Residential/Commercial guys here are always looking. Once indentured you could look at mining/industry.

[omega50]

Move North Sir.....move North :)

Residential/Commercial guys here are always looking. Once indentured you could look at mining/industry.

If a guy were to move North-would the neighbors constantly complain about him running his smoker all the time?:scared:

[wwbirds]

neighbors constantly complain about him running his smoker all the time?

can you catch it

[Tundra Monkey]

If a guy were to move North-would the neighbors constantly complain about him running his smoker all the time?:scared:

Not after they sample your fine cuisine Sir.......I'd cover a good chunk of your mortage if you were my neighbour!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[stefk]

I am a journeyman electrician and telling you that this post is your best bet for landing a job in Alberta right now. Its a tough market to break into as someone with little experience as there are guys with experience looking for work right now.

In regards to the statement that residential will give you a better understanding of electrical. I would imagine that this is directly relating to a beginner like yourself, and in that case it works. House wiring is very basic when it comes to wiring and is a great place to start and learn the basics of simple switching and basic load distribution. What I will tell you further to this is that the potential for advanced learning will be greater in the industrial sector of the trade. When a guy gets into this aspect of the trade, especially in oil and gas if you choose to go that route, he will be introduced to VFDs, Electric Motors, Motor control components like starters, PLC's, Hazardous location wiring methods, and many other things that you might not get the chance to in residential or commercial.

One thing I can try to caution you about right from the start is that if you are lucky enough to land a job make sure you don't follow in the footsteps of so many guys I see around the oil and gas sector. If you get hired on as a first year you will most likely be selected to go on a cable pulling crew, grounding crew, tray builder, or general bitch. Its easy to fall into the rut of doing one thing, especially with the big companies where you are just a number, and carry out your apprenticeship as a one faceted guy with lots of experience doing only a few things. The problem with this is that you go through your four years of school and end up knowing not much more than the few things you were exposed to, essentially rendering you a journeyman cable puller etc. Its hard to put together a good marketable resume to advance when you don't have anything on it but tray building or cable pulling. Just food for thought.

Either way if you go to residential, commercial, or industrial you picked a good trade as it has many facets that will allow you to make a great living.

Keep in mid as well that an instrumentation ticket is also a very good one to have and works well with electrical ticket. So if you cannot get in as an electrician but as in instrument hand that would be a good way to get your foot in the door.

Good luck with your job hunt and keep at it.

I could not have said this better myself Tim.. there are a slough of people out there with the credentials of a JM heat trace and grounding installer…sad really…

And further advice to the OP, a positive willing attitude is everything in the trades. Be willing to soak up every bit of knowledge when the opportunity presents itself.

I roughed in a buddy's basement this weekend with him and his brother helping me, and I'd sooner have those two guys as workers on a crew than some of the indentured apprentices I've seen lately….

[acrtech]

Hello "Becoming"

Can I suggest perhaps a career in Refrigeration or Hvac?

you can "Pm" me for some info. Probably get you a lead or two.

:)

[becoming-an-electrician]

Are you looking for oil and gas work or commercial residential?

I am looking for commercial and residential... from the research I've found most people suggest residential first because of the great knowledge the apprenticeship supplies.

[Ozzzzz]

I am looking for commercial and residential... from the research I've found most people suggest residential first because of the great knowledge the apprenticeship supplies.

For the first year or two maximum. Residential is almost a completely different trade from commercial and industrial electrical. The end result is the exact same certification, but having only residential experience doesn't make you even slightly competent in an industrial or commercial setting, and visa-versa.

Ozz

[becoming-an-electrician]

I am a journeyman electrician and telling you that this post is your best bet for landing a job in Alberta right now. Its a tough market to break into as someone with little experience as there are guys with experience looking for work right now.

In regards to the statement that residential will give you a better understanding of electrical. I would imagine that this is directly relating to a beginner like yourself, and in that case it works. House wiring is very basic when it comes to wiring and is a great place to start and learn the basics of simple switching and basic load distribution. What I will tell you further to this is that the potential for advanced learning will be greater in the industrial sector of the trade. When a guy gets into this aspect of the trade, especially in oil and gas if you choose to go that route, he will be introduced to VFDs, Electric Motors, Motor control components like starters, PLC's, Hazardous location wiring methods, and many other things that you might not get the chance to in residential or commercial.

One thing I can try to caution you about right from the start is that if you are lucky enough to land a job make sure you don't follow in the footsteps of so many guys I see around the oil and gas sector. If you get hired on as a first year you will most likely be selected to go on a cable pulling crew, grounding crew, tray builder, or general bitch. Its easy to fall into the rut of doing one thing, especially with the big companies where you are just a number, and carry out your apprenticeship as a one faceted guy with lots of experience doing only a few things. The problem with this is that you go through your four years of school and end up knowing not much more than the few things you were exposed to, essentially rendering you a journeyman cable puller etc. Its hard to put together a good marketable resume to advance when you don't have anything on it but tray building or cable pulling. Just food for thought.

Either way if you go to residential, commercial, or industrial you picked a good trade as it has many facets that will allow you to make a great living.

Keep in mid as well that an instrumentation ticket is also a very good one to have and works well with electrical ticket. So if you cannot get in as an electrician but as in instrument hand that would be a good way to get your foot in the door.

Good luck with your job hunt and keep at it.


Hi Timwolf, I really appreciate you and everyone else here giving me feedback. I have been dropping off resumes to a lot of companies here in Toronto, but they all say they need someone with experience. I am not going to give up. I am currently even looking on Kijiji for any post of an electrical helper out in Alberta and other provinces. I was thinking about couch surfing my dad's buddy out in Alberta so that I can physically go to some of these companies and dropping off my resume. If anyone has any leads to me finding an electrician that I can apprentice under, I would be so grateful.

Timwolf, are you able to take me under your wing since you're a journeyman? We can skype and you can meet me and see my passion and drive. I just want a chance.

[becoming-an-electrician]

For the first year or two maximum. Residential is almost a completely different trade from commercial and industrial electrical. The end result is the exact same certification, but having only residential experience doesn't make you even slightly competent in an industrial or commercial setting, and visa-versa.

Ozz

Actually I was only thinking of starting with residential and then making my way through commercial and industrial electrical. Is that possible? I heard you can do that. I just want to be as versatile as possible, especially in this tight market. I want to learn as much as possible and I don't want to end up like those electricians that just pull cables as Timwolf was talking about. I was even considering those pre-apprenticeship programs, but it costs $5000-$8000 and I don't want to be that much in debt with no guarantees that I will get someone to apprentice me. However, I am competing with some of the guys that have gone through those pre-apprenticeship program, which puts me in a more difficult position finding entry level jobs because they've got all their WHIMIS and First aid training ...etc etc.

[becoming-an-electrician]

I have been hearing a lot about instrumentation and how it is similar to the electrician profession. Can someone tell me how they are similar and if I go into instrumentation, what route can I take to get my electrician ticket??

[coastalhunter]

You need to move to where you want to work then go into companies and ask for a labor position. Then work hard and learn as much as possible. If your good enough, they will offer you an apprenticeship. Or join a union (barf).

[Ozzzzz]

I have been hearing a lot about instrumentation and how it is similar to the electrician profession. Can someone tell me how they are similar and if I go into instrumentation, what route can I take to get my electrician ticket??

Instumentation is not a regulated or compulsory trade here in Alberta (for now). That means there is no control over who works in the trade. In the oil patch, typically only instrumentation mechanics work on instrumentation, but when times are lean, a company can get rid of the instrument mechanics.

Electrical is a regulated and compulsory trade, meaning you cannot work in that field without either being a journeyman or an apprentice Electrician.

To me, it only makes sense to get your electrical ticket first, and then look at getting your instrumentation ticket. You may even find an employer who will sponsor your second ticket.

Just my 2 cents...

Ozz

[NBFK]

IMHO doing residential and trying to break into oil and gas is very tough. They are almost different trades. I've always worked in the oil and gas industry and get to ride in helicopters, Argos, quads, ect. I get to see some cool country and my days are never the same. I've been pretty lucky to catch a few breaks here and there to end up where I am but I wouldn't change it for anything. I've worked all the way up to 13,800 volts. I have a great job with a pipeline company that sends me on tons of training and offers dual ticketing. I honestly don't think I could handle the residential or commercial side of it. Not knocking anyone who does it but it's not for me. I'd start a new career if I couldn't work in my field.

[NBFK]

Start calling Techmation, pyramid corporation, pronghorn controls, independent electric, tarpon energy ect. This is how I got my start and worked my ass off and eventually built a resume to get the jobs I wanted.

[TIMWOLF]

Hi Timwolf, I really appreciate you and everyone else here giving me feedback. I have been dropping off resumes to a lot of companies here in Toronto, but they all say they need someone with experience. I am not going to give up. I am currently even looking on Kijiji for any post of an electrical helper out in Alberta and other provinces. I was thinking about couch surfing my dad's buddy out in Alberta so that I can physically go to some of these companies and dropping off my resume. If anyone has any leads to me finding an electrician that I can apprentice under, I would be so grateful.

Timwolf, are you able to take me under your wing since you're a journeyman? We can skype and you can meet me and see my passion and drive. I just want a chance.

Its not quite as simple as that. Your first obstacle that you have to overcome is getting indentured with a company. Then and only then can you start working on your formal apprenticeship training. Keep pounding the pavement and showing your face in amongst the electrical contractors and it will come to you. I like seeing a guy such as yourself with drive but unfortunately with my current line of work in an industrial setting there are not too many learning opportunities for an new to the trade type of guy as I mostly deal with PLCs, VFD, and Scada/Cygnet applications on a day to day basis.

I am in the Grande Prairie area and off the top of my head here are a few places to check out. Alberta is tough right now but Grande Prairie seems to be doing ok in regards to workload available so check out some of these places.

FLINT/URS, Controltech, Pyramid, CDN Controls, Tarpon, Rocky Mountain Energy, Caron Controls, Prodigy Tech Group, Pronghorn Controls,

Do a yellow pages search for electrical contractors in Grande Prairie and pick up the phone. A phone call goes a long way over a random resume sliding through someones email inbox.

[becoming-an-electrician]

Its not quite as simple as that. Your first obstacle that you have to overcome is getting indentured with a company. Then and only then can you start working on your formal apprenticeship training. Keep pounding the pavement and showing your face in amongst the electrical contractors and it will come to you. I like seeing a guy such as yourself with drive but unfortunately with my current line of work in an industrial setting there are not too many learning opportunities for an new to the trade type of guy as I mostly deal with PLCs, VFD, and Scada/Cygnet applications on a day to day basis.

I am in the Grande Prairie area and off the top of my head here are a few places to check out. Alberta is tough right now but Grande Prairie seems to be doing ok in regards to workload available so check out some of these places.

FLINT/URS, Controltech, Pyramid, CDN Controls, Tarpon, Rocky Mountain Energy, Caron Controls, Prodigy Tech Group, Pronghorn Controls,

Do a yellow pages search for electrical contractors in Grande Prairie and pick up the phone. A phone call goes a long way over a random resume sliding through someones email inbox.


Hey, thanks a lot Timwolf... I really appreciate it. I'll definitely give those companies a try.

[Gboe8]

I have experience in all three levels, went from one year residential to three years commercial and last 3 years industrial and I am very glad I did it that way. I feel comfortable in all situations. There is some very good information from others here. I think the best for getting a job is going in person and dropping you resume and trying to talk to some one hiring this has always worked for me. There is always a ton of little residential company's hiring in edmonton, even if they are fly by night company's as stated above if you can get on and get your blue book your foot is in the door and it's a lot Easier getting another job some where else. Just my two cents.

[becoming-an-electrician]

Start calling Techmation, pyramid corporation, pronghorn controls, independent electric, tarpon energy ect. This is how I got my start and worked my ass off and eventually built a resume to get the jobs I wanted.

Hey, thanks alot!! I will definitely try those companies.

[C5Hines]

Hey,

The main reason I suggest starting in residential first is because you will learn the basics of how electricity works. You will learn to run circuits and do different switching combinations. I started as a residential electrician for 3 years then did a bit of commercial. Now I am doing service so I get to see a bit of everything. Residential will help you in all aspects of electrical. That doesn't mean you will be a master at everything but you will have a basic grasp of how it all works. You'll also have to think for yourself which can be a very valuable asset when you have to trouble shoot something that someone else has done.

I know a lot of oilfield electricians that don't know how to wire a 3-way switch and I've had to clean up a few of their side jobs. Not saying they are bad electricians you just won't get the basic understanding of how circuitry works.

If you don't get any bites on your resume then look into the pre-employment program. It's a great tool to get you started in the trade.

[wwbirds]

My son started in Industrial as apprentice and almost 2 years in decided he could make more money in oilfield with his class 1 drivers licence. laid off driving just before Christmas but got hired in January by a local commercial company with several large jobs lined up. As of today all their oil related jobs were cancelled and he was laid off for second time in 2 months along with his whole electrical crew. Hopefully he can find something in Calgary Strathmore Langdon in residential as industrial and commercial seem to be taking the hit with the downturn in oil activity. Maybe residential will hold up and he can get involved long enough to finish his trade.

[ManitobaSlim]

I started in the electrical trade last year. Currently working up north in the oil patch/industrial side. No shortages of work up here. Actually had a guy come in for an interview today. If you want any more info feel free to pm me.

[TIMWOLF]

I know a lot of oilfield electricians that don't know how to wire a 3-way switch and I've had to clean up a few of their side jobs. Not saying they are bad electricians you just won't get the basic understanding of how circuitry works.


BECOMING_AN_ELECTRICIAN..........Its true you will run into all kinds of people while working in the trade and many will come from different backgrounds like residential, commercial, or industrial. As such you will run into apprentices and journeyman that don't know a particular aspect of the trade....as would be expected. Of course there are the self proclaimed electrical prodigy's that have an answer for every topic, but I have yet to meet even one that has not been called on their BS.

Personally I do not agree with the attached quote in the least. Saying that he knows "a lot" of oilfield electricians is basically laying a stereotype that oilfield guys generally don't know how to do residential. Either one of two things has happened to this poster and I would bet its number 1.

1- He associated with poor tradesman who neglected to pay attention in first year electrical school as that is one of the most basic switching circuits taught. These are not people who are uneducated "oilfield guys", they are simply guys who took it upon themselves to not learn the trade to a standard that any self respecting tradesman should. Oilfield, commercial, or residential it really does not matter ...... electrons are electrons, volts are volts, and amps are amps etc.....know your trade and if you take on a job make sure you know what you are doing as electricity is not something that can be half assed to say the least.

2- He tried to go industrial and could not cut it because he spent 3/4 of his apprenticeship wiring houses and lacked the skills expected of a 3rd or 4th year industrial guy would need. He now feels the need to badmouth oilfield guys to make him feel better about himself. Just as was pointed out in his post there are oilfield guys that don't know how to wire a house, but on the other hand there are residential guys that would not have a clue how to wire in, let alone program an Allen Bradley PLC in a $50million gas plant. Long story short I don't think you will run into too many guys who have worked in an industrial setting like oil and gas for even a couple/few years that could not be brought up to speed on how to wire a house to code in a matter of a few houses. I would argue that the learning curve coming the other way from residential/commercial/service would be quite steep in comparison.

As I said to you before, it really does not matter on what route you go be it commercial, residential, or industrial. Every facet has interesting learning and will provide you with a great living but the true beauty of the trade is that it is limitless in regards to learning opportunities. If you start off as a commercial guy you might want to move on to residential for a while, and then go back to commercial. Do that for a few years and and you may decide to make the move to industrial. From there you could diversify to concentrate on maybe a motor rewind ticket, or dabble in PLC programming. The key is to learn the theory of the trade well as every learning opportunity is exponentially more beneficial if you know WHY you are doing something, not just remembering that this wire goes here and this wire goes here on a specific piece of equipment.

Again, good luck with your job hunt and keep at it.

Tim

[NBFK]

Hey,

The main reason I suggest starting in residential first is because you will learn the basics of how electricity works. You will learn to run circuits and do different switching combinations. I started as a residential electrician for 3 years then did a bit of commercial. Now I am doing service so I get to see a bit of everything. Residential will help you in all aspects of electrical. That doesn't mean you will be a master at everything but you will have a basic grasp of how it all works. You'll also have to think for yourself which can be a very valuable asset when you have to trouble shoot something that someone else has done.

I know a lot of oilfield electricians that don't know how to wire a 3-way switch and I've had to clean up a few of their side jobs. Not saying they are bad electricians you just won't get the basic understanding of how circuitry works.

If you don't get any bites on your resume then look into the pre-employment program. It's a great tool to get you started in the trade.

Yep and you show up in a van and fix the 3 way while we save the process facility. I'm guessing you would be lost on in applying a force on a plc, making program changes, understanding a 4-20, calibrating various fire and gas , calibrating transmitters, 4kv switching and grounding, trouble shooting 4kv vfds, ect. But hey I just work on a cable crew because I'm an oilfield electrician.

[C5Hines]

haha you guys are all bent out of shape, there is a lot of oilfield guys that don't know basic electrical concepts. there is probably more residential/commercial guys that don't know how to program a PLC or VFD. But I know that the amount of oilfield guys that can program and troubleshoot isn't very high either. oilfield has their guys that can do all that but they have more that can't.

[omega50]

Q. What is another name for an Electrical Apprentice?
A. A Shock Absorber

[becoming-an-electrician]

I started in the electrical trade last year. Currently working up north in the oil patch/industrial side. No shortages of work up here. Actually had a guy come in for an interview today. If you want any more info feel free to pm me.

Hey NickT, I PM you the other day. Check your mail box.

[blgoodbrand1]

Q. What is another name for an Electrical Apprentice?

A. A Shock Absorber


That's terrible.
and funny

[TIMWOLF]

haha you guys are all bent out of shape, there is a lot of oilfield guys that don't know basic electrical concepts. there is probably more residential/commercial guys that don't know how to program a PLC or VFD. But I know that the amount of oilfield guys that can program and troubleshoot isn't very high either. oilfield has their guys that can do all that but they have more that can't.

I 100% agree. The good thing for this majority of lacking oilfield guys is that even if they cant program a VFD or PLC there is always a resi to fall back on. After all righty tighty / lefty loosey and black to gold / white to silver covers 95% of residential.

[NBFK]

I heard running emt at Walmart is real skill testing.