O&G and earthquakes? No fracking way!

[avb3]

Well it looks like now the Alberta regulators do think there's a connection, and all and gas operators in the Fox Creek area are going to have to report anything over 2.0 and shut down if there's one over 4.0.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/touch/story.html?id=10827140&cid=dlvr.it-twitter-edmontonjournal

[Skytop B]

So does the gas companies have to do the seismic monitoring then? Just wondering.

I am on here daily doing notifications, don't see anything??

https://www3.eub.gov.ab.ca/Eub/Dds/anonymous/Logon.aspx?ReturnUrl=%2feub%2fdds%2fdefault.aspx

What is the "busy fracking zone" exactly I wonder

[dmcbride]

http://catalyzethis.ca/sounds-of-silence-the-crooked-lake-earthquakes/

[Skytop B]

Been a while but worked for a couple outfits that hung tools in observation wells while fracking a new area. They could get a 3D image of exactly where the frac went within the formation, pretty neat stuff and not cheap to do.

[Sundancefisher]

Or maybe there are fracture zones right up along the east side of the still active mountain range from Alberta to the Arctic Ocean.

Maybe the rumblings on the East Side of the Rocky Mountains is a sign the big one is coming to the west coast?

Otherwise the premise is that injecting water under pressure 2 or 3 kilometers under the surface can somehow lubricate fault lines and cause a shift.

The other hot spot is in Oklahoma. That one is very interesting. Lots and lots of small quakes. Is it oil and gas or is it a moving hot spot similar to Yellowstone that could erupt again in 10,000 years.

Time will tell.

[Skytop B]

Ok then,

http://www.aer.ca/rules-and-regulations/bulletins/aer-bulletin-2015-03.htm

[Red Bullets]

Check out the Google Earthengine. It is a time lapse of satellite images from 1984 to 2012.

If you zoom into the fox creek area it shows all the development in those 28 years. The development is forestry and oil and gas is scary. Fracking is part of it too. And we wonder why hunting isn't what it used to be. Too much activity.

(Instead of running as video I like clicking year by year. Looking at the cities is interesting. Wetlands are interesting too.)

https://earthengine.google.org/timelapse/timelapseplayer_v2.html?timelapseclient=http://earthengine.google.org/timelapse/data

You can look anywhere on the planet with the earthengine, over time, even your homestead.

[CBintheNorth]

I recall a thread a while back about giant sink-holes.
I was almost laughed off the board for suggesting our underground activities could be to blame....

To think that what we're doing, thousands of feet below the earth's surface, has absolutely no effect on ground formations, is totally naive.

I work in the industry so I am also a hypocrite, but I fear that what we're doing today below ground, will severely affect what this world looks like in the not-so-distant future.

[rugatika]

Heck, even I'm starting to think there's a connection. :) Maybe I'm getting old.

[dantonsen]

Probably is a connection thats why the gubmint is including it in operating guide lines vs doing a study or conjuring up a committee.

The problems are usually linked to waste water disposal wells vs extraction wells. Waste water disposal all goes down one hole and stays there where an extraction well has the fracking fluid pumped in once then retrieved.

Basic thinking says tonnes of stuff going down the same hole will probably cause problems. Lots of areas seem to have very few disposal wells and a tonne of production area to service.

The geology of the disposal layer could be problematic too, otherwise edmonton would have problems from 40+ years of injections from heavy industry into relatively few wells.

[Sundancefisher]

Probably is a connection thats why the gubmint is including it in operating guide lines vs doing a study or conjuring up a committee.

The problems are usually linked to waste water disposal wells vs extraction wells. Waste water disposal all goes down one hole and stays there where an extraction well has the fracking fluid pumped in once then retrieved.

Basic thinking says tonnes of stuff going down the same hole will probably cause problems. Lots of areas seem to have very few disposal wells and a tonne of production area to service.

The geology of the disposal layer could be problematic too, otherwise edmonton would have problems from 40+ years of injections from heavy industry into relatively few wells.

Now that's making sense.

[Skytop B]

If you guys only knew what was under those plants at Fort Sask. (Cavern wells). I used to do a lot of work for Chevron, Dow & BP. It has been a lot of years but we used to have to pull casing every so often and sonar log the Cavern. I recall the last one I was on had a capacity of something like 700,000m3, the top of the cavern was around 1900m. That is a BIG cavern and there are lots of them. All used for NGL storage. Unlike a normal oil/gas well that is drilled through solid rock and the gas flows through the rock, not a cavern. This is all very interesting.

[Mountain Adventurer]

I find it intriguing how an earth quake in Alaska could cause another thirty minutes later at the yellowstone caldera. Spooky! Even more spooky is why is the U.S. government pulling all the nukes from Wyoming And buying up copious amounts of ammunition ? So they can shoot us all if they need to?dunno

[PGH]

As I'm sure some of you know, there is a natural seismic zone in the foothill areas around rocky mountain house and fox creek. Historically its always been mildly active. With the introduction of fracking, the frequency and severity have both slightly increased. The scientific conclusion is that fracking likely stimulates pre-existing fault lines below the earth and thus triggers seismic activity. But this isn't saying that fracking solely causes earthquakes, its just saying that it helps stimulate them.

If i lived in the foothills area, I would add earthquake insurance to my homeowners policy just to be safe if its cheap enough. Its available but most people don't have it on their policies as many Albertans think that we are safe from quakes (which is mostly true). Ask your broker about it if you live in the foothills.

[zero]

If you guys only knew what was under those plants at Fort Sask. (Cavern wells). I used to do a lot of work for Chevron, Dow & BP. It has been a lot of years but we used to have to pull casing every so often and sonar log the Cavern. I recall the last one I was on had a capacity of something like 700,000m3, the top of the cavern was around 1900m. That is a BIG cavern and there are lots of them. All used for NGL storage. Unlike a normal oil/gas well that is drilled through solid rock and the gas flows through the rock, not a cavern. This is all very interesting.

my company does alot of work at pembina/provident running casing out there, tons of salt caverns, chemical storage caverns, worked out east in sarnia and they said they lost a salt cavern because it eroded and was to big to work with.

[Sundancefisher]

I find it intriguing how an earth quake in Alaska could cause another thirty minutes later at the yellowstone caldera. Spooky! Even more spooky is why is the U.S. government pulling all the nukes from Wyoming And buying up copious amounts of ammunition ? So they can shoot us all if they need to?dunno

When I was in Yellowstone last I went to a talk about an earthquake in Alaska that caused old geysers to restart. Over time they calcified back up but it showed what the rolling can do even over long distances. Those are high energy events.

[Luxor]

Fracking is becoming a concern.

No different than sucking water wells dry.

Except the pollutants generated of course.

[sikwhiskey]

Fracking is becoming a concern.

No different than sucking water wells dry.

Except the pollutants generated of course.

Yes yes yes , someone please stop fracing Nepal, pretty please, really !!!!!!!!!!

[Luxor]

Yes yes yes , someone please stop fracing Nepal, pretty please, really !!!!!!!!!!

Fracking not fracing.

Its no doubt you have little understanding of what this process is.

[sikwhiskey]

As I'm sure some of you know, there is a natural seismic zone in the foothill areas around rocky mountain house and fox creek. Historically its always been mildly active. With the introduction of fracking, the frequency and severity have both slightly increased. The scientific conclusion is that fracking likely stimulates pre-existing fault lines below the earth and thus triggers seismic activity. But this isn't saying that fracking solely causes earthquakes, its just saying that it helps stimulate them.

If i lived in the foothills area, I would add earthquake insurance to my homeowners policy just to be safe if its cheap enough. Its available but most people don't have it on their policies as many Albertans think that we are safe from quakes (which is mostly true). Ask your broker about it if you live in the foothills.
So is releasing the stress slowly better or worse? Assuming fracing 2- 3000 m below ground does anything. I'll call BS on fracing causing anything harmful or detrimental. It's the drilling causing problems

[Luxor]

Fracking

not fracing

but it depends if you want to be taken seriously i guess :sHa_sarcasticlol:

[sikwhiskey]

Fracking not fracing.

Its no doubt you have little understanding of what this process is.

Funny, I've pumped and flowed back more fracs then you've read about, thousands, spell check never seems to change it to fracking, talk to apple if you've a problem spelling, ask them to correct spell check

[Luxor]

Funny, I've pumped and flowed back more fracs then you've read about, thousands, spell check never seems to change it to fracking, talk to apple if you've a problem spelling, ask them to correct spell check

Reset your spell check. Lol

Then you SHOULD have a good understanding of its effects outside you just collecting a paycheque.
Funny how most workers dont really understand their trade.

[sikwhiskey]

Reset your spell check. Lol

Then you SHOULD have a good understanding of its effects outside you just collecting a paycheque.
Funny how most workers dont really understand their trade.

Really ? And what trade would you be in?
Ever noticed how most oil fields are in, or were previously in, known active seismic fields?

[sikwhiskey]

Then show me 1 proven instance of fraccing causing an earthquake! Just 1 thanks

[sikwhiskey]

Fracking is becoming a concern.

No different than sucking water wells dry.

Except the pollutants generated of course.

Might as well debunk this as well: what difference does it make sucking a water well dry at 300m when most seismic activity occurs 5-10 km bellow it? Earthquakes? Most oil producing zones in AB are reinjected with water, displacing the oil.
What pollutants generated are you referring to?

[Luxor]

Show me 1 proven instance of fraccing causing an earthquake! Just 1 thanks[/QUOTE]

I know the article is an earthquake point.
But there is also the problems of creating sinkholes and of course the pollutants associated with it.
And of course weakening the Earth's crust will make techtonic movement a little easier.

And again.....its fracking.....not fraccing lol
Your spell check needs a frack job.

[Luxor]

Might as well debunk this as well: what difference does it make sucking a water well dry at 300m when most seismic activity occurs 5-10 km bellow it? Earthquakes? Most oil producing zones in AB are reinjected with water, displacing the oil.
What pollutants generated are you referring to?


Many cases in N America have seen pollutants in the local water systems.
Including a case just outside Calgary where the water will ignite into flame.
And here in Canada companies are not required to report the chemicals used to extract the oil. This weak legislation is becoming increasingly a concerning matter.
Go ask your company higher ups if they'll tell you????

[sikwhiskey]

Show me 1 proven instance of fraccing causing an earthquake! Just 1 thanks

I know the article is an earthquake point.
But there is also the problems of creating sinkholes and of course the pollutants associated with it.
And of course weakening the Earth's crust will make techtonic movement a little easier.

And again.....its fracking.....not fraccing lol
Your spell check needs a frack job.[/QUOTE]

Sinkholes now, well look out downtown edmonton. What pollutants are associated with sink holes?
So, is weakening the earths crust making tectonic movement easier, better or worse, than letting the earths crush build up and snap? Or does Oilfield Opps have any relevance at all to this phenomenon?
And again, what pollutants are you referring too?

[Luxor]

Methane among others.
There is case in AB against Encana corp about this matter.

And since companies are not required to divuldge their chemical list then your guess is as good as mine what else.

[sikwhiskey]

Many cases in N America have seen pollutants in the local water systems.
Including a case just outside Calgary where the water will ignite into flame.
And here in Canada companies are not required to report the chemicals used to extract the oil. This weak legislation is becoming increasingly a concerning matter.
Go ask your company higher ups if they'll tell you????

You can get MSDS sheets on everything pumped down a well. Most you can eat, what comes up from the ground "naturally occurring " is the problem and most is refined and injected back into formation. The exemption of course is when GOD frac's and a Volcano explodes or a mountain range is formed.
Next time your in the mountains, look at some of the rock formations, you will see the same zones that oil industry is Fraccing, except this formation has been pushed to the surface….. from God fraccing…….. Radiation and all……. true story.

[Luxor]

You can get MSDS sheets on everything pumped down a well. Most you can eat, what comes up from the ground "naturally occurring " is the problem and most is refined and injected back into formation. The exemption of course is when GOD frac's and a Volcano explodes or a mountain range is formed.
Next time your in the mountains, look at some of the rock formations, you will see the same zones that oil industry is Fraccing, except this formation has been pushed to the surface….. from God fraccing…….. Radiation and all……. true story.

Im not doubting your knowledge.
Im only doubting whether or not its a viable activity to pursue.
Some say it isnt some say it is.
All I know is that the concerns are becoming more pronounced.
Could be just another scare tactic or maybe not????

[sikwhiskey]

Methane among others.
There is case in AB against Encana corp about this matter.

And since companies are not required to divuldge their chemical list then your guess is as good as mine what else.

No they have to divulge their chemical list, just not how they mix it.
Fire water has been around long before Whiskey. I have no doubt that punching holes in the ground causes gas migration, fraccing however doesn't cause this usually, its drilling.
Alberta needs to start taxing cow farts, it would make more sense than blaming Frac's for methane pollution. And the Cattle Association is long overdue for a big tax kick in the nuts.

[Luxor]

No they have to divulge their chemical list, just not how they mix it.
Fire water has been around long before Whiskey. I have no doubt that punching holes in the ground causes gas migration, fraccing however doesn't cause this usually, its drilling.
Alberta needs to start taxing cow farts, it would make more sense than blaming Frac's for methane pollution. And the Cattle Association is long overdue for a big tax kick in the nuts.

Ya but drilling is part of the fracking process.
So then its going to be associated with the negatives right?

You know more than I do so I can only ask questions.
But you did teach me a few things :)

But some of the fracking procedures and results are indeed not purely good attributes.

[does it ALL outdoors]

So is releasing the stress slowly better or worse? Assuming fracing 2- 3000 m below ground does anything. I'll call BS on fracing causing anything harmful or detrimental. It's the drilling causing problems then why are these earthquakes specific to the fox Vegas area? Drilling rigs are all over Alberta. It has nothing to do with the chemicals being used but the process itself. Fracturing the earth. Draw your own conclusions

[sikwhiskey]

Ya but drilling is part of the fracking process.
So then its going to be associated with the negatives right?

You know more than I do so I can only ask questions.

But some of the fracking procedures and results are indeed not purely good attributes.

I'd say Drilling is part of the Oil/gas recovery process, Fraccing increases the yield, ONLY, in that particular formation being Fractured.
The results from fraccing are increase production, usually, from the particular formation that is Stimulated. I cannot see any correlation between fraccing and earthquakes. The only side effect or pollutants I see is the loss of fresh water pumped down wells, gone from our water cycle for hundreds maybe thousands of years.
Again, most of the Pollutants are in the earth already, mining, drilling are factors in bringing pollutants to the surface, as are many natural occurrences.
For instance, Did you know the "Oil Sands" are the same formation as the Bakken oilfield, thats spreads from AB ,Sask, Manitoba and into Montana,North/south Dakota? The only difference is the "Tar Sand" is 0-300m below ground compared to 1000-3000m below ground in the south. Same oil bearing formation made at near the same time.

[sikwhiskey]

then why are these earthquakes specific to the fox Vegas area? Drilling rigs are all over Alberta. It has nothing to do with the chemicals being used but the process itself. Fracturing the earth. Draw your own conclusions

How long have they been going on? 10 years or 10,000 or 100,000. Do you know what happened last time Vancouver had a big Quake? Fairmont hot springs boiled black acidic water for weeks, long before anyone dreamed of fraccing.
I suppose the earthquakes 10km below Lethbridge are from fraccing too, has nothing to do with geography, and the Sweetgrass hills are just a giant anthills, as is most of yellowstone and the rocky mountains, created by Moses when he parted the pond? right?
well you asked for my own best conclusions, no need to even get into the Alien theory :sHa_shakeshout:

[sikwhiskey]

Here is an article I found to not be too far off the track. Hope the link still works it a few years old, didn't get a single hit from this forum???????????????????????? Maybe the link sucks.


http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=154599&highlight=bakken

[Kim473]

Yup, drill a million holes in a bowling ball, stick your presure washer in a few of them and see what happens.

[DiabeticKripple]

i think people dont understand how big a fracture really is. its about 1-2mm wide.

[hal53]

i think people dont understand how big a fracture really is. its about 1-2mm wide.
no sense wasting your time with the "experts" DK, they don't want to know

[smartypants]

It's always the oilpatch's fault. Every time a seismic event occurs in the western sedimentary basin...of course it's caused by fraccing. That's because the oil industry immediately renders the entire geological history and predisposition on an area null and void by the mere presence of a frac pumper. See, once you actually start fraccing, from that moment on Mother Nature is incapable of participating in any and all local seismic activity. Even Dr. 'Suki agrees.

[edmhunter]

Went to that earth engine. Watching the development of gas and oil wells spreading was like watching cancer spreading in a human body! Scary stuff!

[DiabeticKripple]

Went to that earth engine. Watching the development of gas and oil wells spreading was like watching cancer spreading in a human body! Scary stuff!

i think what you were seeing was logging.

[silverdoctor]

Makes for an interesting discussion. The USGS has been studying this for years, making some claims with some science to back it up. It's all in what people believe, and how they read the data.

http://www.usgs.gov/faq/taxonomy/term/9833

[AbAngler]

I've been in the industry for quite a while and have fractured many wells. Not personally, but have hired companies to frac for me. Even with the fanciest, most expensive methods used to measure frac distance, effectiveness etc (micro-seismic being the best), nobody really knows what goes on down there for sure. Oh, they'll tell you they know, but in reality, there are so many variables, nobody really knows.

And in Fracturing 101, the first thing they tell you is to disregard anyone or article that spells frac, frack.

Frick and frac!:sHa_shakeshout:

[DiabeticKripple]

they actually have microseismic now that they place in surrounding wells and can map out where the fracks go.

[AB RANGER 007]

:thinking-006: This is what I have put together on my GPS software on the Jan 2015 readings from the Jasper area Recordings. :angry3::scared0018::scared:

Bruce.

[AbAngler]

Oh I'm up to speed on the latest and greatest, and yes, micro seismic is helping. When I drill a fringe Cardium well, and keep it below a thin shale layer (the Engineers like to play safe), with hopes of the fracture going up through it to get to the really good stuff, why do some work, and some don't? The frac companies will tell you that it will for sure break through, but in reality, sometimes it doesn't. The IPs tell the story.

Logic says the frac will follow the path of least resistance... But again, there are SOOOO many variables, without getting into a painstakingly detailed discussion, this rocksniffer will remain convinced that nobody knows for sure what goes on down there.

[AbAngler]

:thinking-006: This is what I have put together on my GPS software on the Jan 2015 readings from the Jasper area Recordings. :angry3::scared0018::scared:

Bruce.

Very nice! Real data!

[smartypants]

And in Fracturing 101, the first thing they tell you is to disregard anyone or article that spells frac, frack.

Fraccin A

[edmhunter]

i think what you were seeing was logging.

Nope I zoomed in they were gas of oil well sites, looked like an ever growing spider web. Really very interesting seeing it from that perspective, that's for sure. :scared:

[J D]

The way humans live we constantly impact the world. This is not just the fault of the companies that extract these resources.

The problems created by resource extraction are from our wants and needs in our daily lives.

Everybody is at fault because we create the demand for these resources. Without the demand these companies would not be causing damage extracting resources.

We can all complain about it but we can all look at our lives and see the things in our lives that demand resources from the environment. You are posting on this forum with a device that has parts created from extracting resources.

Issues from resource extraction will not change unless humans change their lifestyle

[silverdoctor]

Mother nature can do her own damage, plates are always moving, she's pretty dynamic - albeit slow.

Take the Nepal quake, Mount Everest shrunk 2.8 cm as a result. May not sound like much but that's one heck of alot of rock.

[smartypants]

There's nothing more natural then drilling and fraccing for oil & gas...mother nature put it there...people, natural organisms, inteliigent enough to engineer drilling rigs & frac pumpers, extract hydrocarbons, burn them to create energy for the further advancement of society....natural as natural can be...mother naitch is so very proud. :sHa_shakeshout:

[avb3]

I've been in the industry for quite a while and have fractured many wells. Not personally, but have hired companies to frac for me. Even with the fanciest, most expensive methods used to measure frac distance, effectiveness etc (micro-seismic being the best), nobody really knows what goes on down there for sure. Oh, they'll tell you they know, but in reality, there are so many variables, nobody really knows.

And in Fracturing 101, the first thing they tell you is to disregard anyone or article that spells frac, frack.

Frick and frac!:sHa_shakeshout:

Think that someone better tell CAPP?

http://www.capp.ca/publications-and-statistics/glossary

Check under H for Hydraulic fracturing

[Luxor]

There's nothing more natural then drilling and fraccing for oil & gas...mother nature put it there...people, natural organisms, inteliigent enough to engineer drilling rigs & frac pumpers, extract hydrocarbons, burn them to create energy for the further advancement of society....natural as natural can be...mother naitch is so very proud. :sHa_shakeshout:

The main issue is how much is too much before it becomes an environmental and or public problem.
Its obvious you are new to environmental issues.
You'll learn more in time hopefully as your young mind ages.
Sadly maybe not.

[smartypants]

The main issue is how much is too much before it becomes an environmental and or public problem.
Its obvious you are new to environmental issues.
You'll learn more in time hopefully as your young mind ages.
Sadly maybe not.

oohh geee...thadly maybe not...ooohh thx for lecture grampths

i think the engineers have spec'd a 24 stage frac on our next horizontal....too much for you or?

[The Elkster]

Unless these tremors are somehow triggering a major fault-line and a larger quake (none in AB) or big enough that they are actually felt and do damage at surface (never happened) they are basically insignificant. There are virtually daily natural quakes of similar intensity to that connected to fracing. How do you think AB reservoir got some of their natural fracturing that we target for good production? Nothing to write home about. Move on.

[AbAngler]

Think that someone better tell CAPP?

http://www.capp.ca/publications-and-statistics/glossary

Check under H for Hydraulic fracturing

Ha! Good catch! Thats actually not surprising. CAPP is a joke and has been for a lot of years. We aren't members anymore...

Slightly off topic,
15ish years ago, there was something called the Voluntary Challenge Registry that I was involved in through CAPP. Basically it was to voluntarily reduce greenhouse gas emissions to 1991 levels (think Kyoto). I took it seriously and did a 5hit ton of work gathering information for our company. I literally had binders full of reports that I had generated. Started my presentation and was shut down because lunch was being served. The table alone in that boardroom must have cost $50g +. By the time lunch was over, the meeting was finished. Rinse and repeat for the monthly meeting. It was my introduction to the bloated bureaucracy that is CAPP.

The industry would have a considerable better reputation had CAPP actually done what it was supposed to do. Its a joke.

Carry one.