It's just not right

[ak-71]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/top-ukrainian-nazi-visits-u-s-congress-pentagon-canadian-parliament-seeks-weapons-for-ukraine/5433585

I mean that what ever the business is, people with background like that should not be visiting Canadian Parliament.

[Wild&Free]

Herr Harper!

[KGB]

It is becoming a fashion statement to meet with the terrorist: first we got white house meeting with Muslim brotherhood, now this... He is setting up a trend....
I agree, people like this should be prohibited from entering the country.

[Fisherpeak]

Herr Harper!

Would you rather Turdo?Or,god forbid Mulcare?Sometimes you got to deal with rats to kill other rats.Nobody is clean.Wake up and smell the world.And,yeah,it stinks.

[Wild&Free]

Would you rather Turdo?Or,god forbid Mulcare?Sometimes you got to deal with rats to kill other rats.Nobody is clean.Wake up and smell the world.And,yeah,it stinks.

I'd take a socialist over a fascists any day.

out of all the current options, I'd choose not to be governed.

[Okotokian]

Again, we have the apologists for Russian invasion spreading anti-Ukrainian, Pro-Russian propaganda. In the view of a Communist, anyone who isn't one is a Nazi or Fascist. The story is obviously biased. Give it up Comrades. Not Alberta Outdoorsmen material.

[silverdoctor]

Again, we have the apologists for Russian invasion spreading anti-Ukrainian, Pro-Russian propaganda. In the view of a Communist, anyone who isn't one is a Nazi or Fascist. The story is obviously biased. Give it up Comrades. Not Alberta Outdoorsmen material.

You keep calling us apologists over Russia "invading" Ukraine? Show me some solid proof that Russia has indeed invaded Ukraine Please?

We have Poroshenko on the world stage over and over trying to prove that Russia has invaded, the last one was just laughable. He's claiming to have Russian passports of soldiers. His speech writers should be working for saturday night live.

If Russia had indeed invaded, the west would be in there like a dirty shirt. As it is, the UAE have provided "defensive" weapons to Ukraine - whatever the heck defensive weapons are. I would LOVE to know how broke Ukraine can afford to buy weapons.

[Fisherpeak]

Why are you guys so hung up on the Ukraine?You should be more worried about Jihadi militants convincing Alberta kids to go over there,meet new people ,learn bad tricks and come home to blow up shoppers in the West Ed Mall.It`s gonna happen.

[Okotokian]

You keep calling us apologists over Russia "invading" Ukraine? Show me some solid proof that Russia has indeed invaded Ukraine Please?



Are there Russian troops in Crimea? Crimea was part of the Ukraine.

[ak-71]

Again, we have the apologists for Russian invasion spreading anti-Ukrainian, Pro-Russian propaganda. In the view of a Communist, anyone who isn't one is a Nazi or Fascist. The story is obviously biased. Give it up Comrades. Not Alberta Outdoorsmen material.

Personal believes in Russian invasion and the story itself are secondary points to the topic.
You may like it or not, but he did help to found "Social Nationalist Party of Ukraine".
With another nice guy Tyahnybok:
"In 2004, Tyahnybok was kicked out of former President Viktor Yushchenko's parliamentary faction for a speech calling for Ukrainians to fight against a "Muscovite-Jewish mafia" - using two highly insulting words to describe Russians and Jews - and emphasising that Ukrainians had in the past fought this threat with arms."
from http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20824693

[ak-71]

Why are you guys so hung up on the Ukraine?You should be more worried about Jihadi militants convincing Alberta kids to go over there,meet new people ,learn bad tricks and come home to blow up shoppers in the West Ed Mall.It`s gonna happen.

It's not about Ukraine or Russia, it's about what Canadian politicians are willing to do to. Not sure if they do it to get some points with Ukrainian community, the part that knows that they have Ukrainian heritage, but don't care enough to know that Ukrainian citizens are killing each other in this war, not some some mythical 3rd party. Or maybe to support a big brother from the south, or just to get back to Cold war scenario they are used to.

[schmedlap]

Maybe the guy is a genuine Nazi jerk. Or maybe it is a little overblown by Putin's propogandists. It doesn't really matter much.
The bare and obvious fact is that Russia (whether it is just via weaponry and military leadership or actual direct engagement) is very cleverly staging a creeping invasion of the sovereign territory of Ukraine, in complete violation of every relevant treaty obligation, express agreement, and international protocol that exists. No amount of distractive propaganda changes that. The fact is that one very large reason for the bankrupt state of Ukraine is the blatant puppet corruption of Yanukovich's crowd. The fact is that unless "the West" stands up to the Russians in a much more meaningful way, the Ukrainians will be again subjugated to the tyranny of their imperial neighbour, and the Baltic states will likely be next on that radar. The fact is that there is not really much Canada can do, except what Mr. Harper and his government are doing, given our relative capabilities. At least Canada is speaking very frankly and without the timid rhetoric of Obama et al. This is one item on which I am very proud of Mr. Harper.
I think the West should unequivocally call Mr. Putin's bluff and give Ukraine the military capability it needs to defend itself and reclaim/secure its territory. I have confidence that the Russians will find it pretty hard to retake what the USSR lost when people who were subjugated to that evil regime for so many years have adequate means to defend themselves. I think that if the population of some Eastern parts of Ukraine prefers to secede and become part of Russia, or some subjugated satellite state (like Belarus?), in a legitimate and democratic referendum, then fine - up to them. I suspect they will come to regret it, but...?
I have no Ukrainian blood anywhere in my lineage, by the way. What I do have is considerable sympathy for the plight of peoples such as them, collectively, who just want the same democratic freedoms and opportunity that we have. Borders should not be subject to being redrawn by dint of military might and intimidation, or by artificial re-population, but only by truely exercised democratic will (?). If those who believe such things have the means to effect that (and "we" do, in fact), then it should be done, by whatever means required.

[silverdoctor]

Are there Russian troops in Crimea? Crimea was part of the Ukraine.

Ok, I see. Crimea was a republic that was part of Ukraine.

When people talk about the invasion of Ukraine, they are talking about the county of Ukraine. Poroshenko is crying wolf about Russia invading eastern Ukraine but can find no proof. He's looking like a bloody fool on the world stage, even much of the MSM is laughing at him.

So why did the west allow the invasion of Crimea?

[dinohunter]

You keep calling us apologists over Russia "invading" Ukraine? Show me some solid proof that Russia has indeed invaded Ukraine Please?

We have Poroshenko on the world stage over and over trying to prove that Russia has invaded, the last one was just laughable. He's claiming to have Russian passports of soldiers. His speech writers should be working for saturday night live.

If Russia had indeed invaded, the west would be in there like a dirty shirt. As it is, the UAE have provided "defensive" weapons to Ukraine - whatever the heck defensive weapons are. I would LOVE to know how broke Ukraine can afford to buy weapons. who invaded crimea?

[ak-71]

BBC journalists are hardly Putin's propagandists (link above), so if we can establish that the guy is a genuine Nazi jerk, is it still OK if he is against somebody you preceive as a bad guy???
Kind of a Taliban support against USSR, or ISIS and Assad dilemma

[schmedlap]

BBC journalists are hardly Putin's propagandists (link above), so if we can establish that the guy is a genuine Nazi jerk, is it still OK if he is against somebody you preceive as a bad guy???
Kind of a Taliban support against USSR, or ISIS and Assad dilemma
As I actually said, he is largely irrelevant - it is neither OK or ...?. He is not going to any position of credible influence. The issue here has nothing to do with him or with the Islamist idiots. It has to do with the right of self-determination of the Ukrainian people, and their territory, which the Russians are determined to disrespect. If you have an argument to make in favor of Russian subjugation of Ukraine, make it. Stop avoiding the facts on the ground. If all you want to do is try to distract attention from the truth, then keep putting forward specious distractive matters as such. I doubt that it is going to influence events, in terms of the ambit of this forum, but Chairman Mao and Kim Jung Il will take you into their inner circle in the afterlife for being such a good propogandist (?).

[ak-71]

As I actually said, he is largely irrelevant - it is neither OK or ...?. He is not going to any position of credible influence. The issue here has nothing to do with him or with the Islamist idiots. It has to do with the right of self-determination of the Ukrainian people, and their territory, which the Russians are determined to disrespect. If you have an argument to make in favor of Russian subjugation of Ukraine, make it. Stop avoiding the facts on the ground. If all you want to do is try to distract attention from the truth, then keep putting forward specious distractive matters as such. I doubt that it is going to influence events, in terms of the ambit of this forum, but Chairman Mao and Kim Jung Il will take you into their inner circle in the afterlife for being such a good propogandist (?).

1. As a thread starter let me reassure you, yes it is relevant to the topic, the rest is not.
2. I am sure your thoughts about Mao and Kim Jung Il are very deep, but I am neither an expert nor I am interested in this topic at all.
3.I am also sure that your knowledge of current situation in Ukraine is immense, but most likely it is limited to a local media coverege, and it is rather unlikely that you have any friends in the area of Ukraine or at least visited east Ukraine once, so we are unlikely to find common ground here. As far as I am concerned "subjugation of Ukraine" is all in your head and in some media coverage.
Let's just leave it out of the discussion - it goes beyond the scope of it.

[Grizzly Adams]

Again, we have the apologists for Russian invasion spreading anti-Ukrainian, Pro-Russian propaganda. In the view of a Communist, anyone who isn't one is a Nazi or Fascist. The story is obviously biased. Give it up Comrades. Not Alberta Outdoorsmen material.

"If Hitler invaded Hell, I would at least make a favorable comment on the Devil, in the House of Parliament."

Winston Churchill

[Okotokian]

Ok, I see. Crimea was a republic that was part of Ukraine.


So why did the west allow the invasion of Crimea?


When a wolf eats a sheep, it's not the fault of a passerby who didn't shoot the wolf. Stop defending the wolf. Glad you see that Crimea was part of Ukraine and that there was an invasion.

[HalfBreed]

Ok, I see. Crimea was a republic that was part of Ukraine.

When people talk about the invasion of Ukraine, they are talking about the county of Ukraine. Poroshenko is crying wolf about Russia invading eastern Ukraine but can find no proof. He's looking like a bloody fool on the world stage, even much of the MSM is laughing at him.

So why did the west allow the invasion of Crimea?

Here's an old article I remember reading on Crimea,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/03/26/crimea-putins-olympic-diversion/

[Wild&Free]

Here's an old article I remember reading on Crimea,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/03/26/crimea-putins-olympic-diversion/

Apply the same logic to US/NATO interventions in the middle east and north Africa.

[HalfBreed]

Apply the same logic to US/NATO interventions in the middle east and north Africa.

Yup, Bill Cosby ain't the only one purportedly with fingers in an others pudding.

[silverdoctor]

Stop defending the wolf.

I will if you will... How many wars has the US "wolf" started since 9/11, 5 or 6? Countries are in shambles because of it. What have they done with the blank check they wrote themselves on 9/11 in the fight against terror...? How many countries are next on the list? Syria for sure... That door swings both ways Oko.

Where does it end. Now Canada is up to it's arse in Ukraine and Iraq. We used to be a peacekeeping nation, could go anywhere and be treated as friendly. WTF happened. We are definitely not doing peacekeeping in these nations.

There's reasons why much of the middle east hates the west.

[HalfBreed]

I will if you will... How many wars has the US "wolf" started since 9/11, 5 or 6? Countries are in shambles because of it. What have they done with the blank check they wrote themselves on 9/11 in the fight against terror...? How many countries are next on the list? Syria for sure... That door swings both ways Oko.

Where does it end. Now Canada is up to it's arse in Ukraine and Iraq. We used to be a peacekeeping nation, could go anywhere and be treated as friendly. WTF happened. We are definitely not doing peacekeeping in these nations.

There's reasons why much of the middle east hates the west.

Having been under both shades of blue, I certainly preferred the darker NATO blue. It's easy for those watching the news to decry the peacekeeping, quite different for those on the ground.

[Wild&Free]

Yup, Bill Cosby ain't the only one purportedly with fingers in an others pudding.

So why support the politicians who do this while ignoring things at home?

the best way to help yourself is to help others, but the best way to help others is to help yourself so you can help others.

[silverdoctor]

It's really interesting to see the different ideals and opinions that people carry...

The US can do nothing wrong, but Putin is a terrorist. Russians in east Ukraine are labelled terrorists - and that's what the world hears and understands - a word. I'm not condoning anything, just trying to wrap my head around it.


What is the end game for NATO? If they really wanted war, it could be done easily.
GWB pushed for Georgia and Ukraine to become part of NATO - they were declined - probably would have started a war. Why did NATO decline membership to Georgia and Ukraine?

NATO countries supplying weapons to Kiev would definitely start a war - Putin says so but they haven't done so. Why?

Russia flew planes close to NATO country borders, NATO made a big stink about it - but yet they are parading military strengths along Russia's border. Why?

To me it's akin to a dozen men in the woods poking a grizzly with a stick - when they all have the firepower to put the bear down. So why keep poking if war is the end game here?

[ak-71]

It's really interesting to see the different ideals and opinions that people carry...

The US can do nothing wrong, but Putin is a terrorist. Russians in east Ukraine are labelled terrorists - and that's what the world hears and understands - a word. I'm not condoning anything, just trying to wrap my head around it.


What is the end game for NATO? If they really wanted war, it could be done easily.
GWB pushed for Georgia and Ukraine to become part of NATO - they were declined - probably would have started a war. Why did NATO decline membership to Georgia and Ukraine?

NATO countries supplying weapons to Kiev would definitely start a war - Putin says so but they haven't done so. Why?

Russia flew planes close to NATO country borders, NATO made a big stink about it - but yet they are parading military strengths along Russia's border. Why?

To me it's akin to a dozen men in the woods poking a grizzly with a stick - when they all have the firepower to put the bear down. So why keep poking if war is the end game here?

Actually, the part about supplying weapons is tricky, it also depends on which words you choose to believe, DNR (DPR?) media are claiming that they do find US made weapons abandoned by retreating Ukrainian troops, but they also claim private military contractors are fighting on Kiev's side. Czech company was recently implicated in supplying weapons to support Kiev's war effort against East Ukraine by Czech journalist too.

[HalfBreed]

Can't answer your questions as I don't play at that level, but there is the Budapest Memo outlined here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10667111/Ukraine-pleads-for-Britain-and-US-to-come-to-its-rescue-as-Russia-accused-of-invasion.html

[silverdoctor]

Actually, the part about supplying weapons is tricky, it also depends on which words you choose to believe, DNR (DPR?) media are claiming that they do find US made weapons abandoned by retreating Ukrainian troops, but they also claim private military contractors are fighting on Kiev's side. Czech company was recently implicated in supplying weapons to support Kiev's war effort against East Ukraine by Czech journalist too.

Yep, and that's all part of the propoganda, baffle with BS with no way of getting the truth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDlX5SSAO0M

Yes, there are westerners on the ground with Kiev... I'd be a fool to believe that both sides aren't supplying some arms to both sides even thought the rebels are claiming they are using weapons left behind or captured from Ukranian troops. When we're talking weapons, the heavy stuff. Roll western tanks and fighterjets into the west in defense of Kiev and watch what happens. The UAE has supplied some arms to Ukraine, but they haven't said what they supplied - and again, how does Ukraine afford to purchase weapons?

It would take very little to get a proxy war going with Russia in Ukraine. Why don't they just do it and get it over with?

[greylynx]

Anyone wonder why western Ukraine appears to have adopted a fascist attitude.?

The fascists destroyed their country during WW2. Why do they want to act like the people who tried to destroy them?

Go figure.

[HalfBreed]

I think everything around the Black Sea has the potential to go up.

[silverdoctor]

I think everything around the Black Sea has the potential to go up.

Obama the arm twister...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AdooSjrtxE

On brokering the power transition in Ukraine...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmUNCsT8TjU


So is there any doubt over the attempted coup in Venezuela?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/20/venezuela-opposition-idUSL1N0VT39T20150220

[HalfBreed]

Without going into the attachments, people over there don't need much of a twist as they are more than content with the differing race and religion diversity to use as a backdrop. Same thing when Yugoslavia splintered. History is the best lesson.

[ak-71]

Anyone wonder why western Ukraine appears to have adopted a fascist attitude.?

The fascists destroyed their country during WW2. Why do they want to act like the people who tried to destroy them?

Go figure.

You are confusing "Ukraine proper" and western Ukraine, most of the Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union long before WWII, western part (very small) was not. Western Ukraine actually manned it's own The 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician) and in general collaborated with Nazis, also had other organizations like OUN to fight USSR. BTW they also didn't like Poles much as well as helped nazis with Jewish on occasion. (look up "Massacres of Poles in Volhynia")
All this is fine as long as it stays in history books, bringing it into political power and armed forces really bothers me.
PS. Actually, even embracing this culture in Ukraine is fine by me, but when Canada embracing it, it becomes a problem for me

[greylynx]

You are confusing "Ukraine proper" and western Ukraine, most of the Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union long before WWII, western part (very small) was not. Western Ukraine actually manned it's own The 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician) and in general collaborated with Nazis, also had other organizations like OUN to fight USSR. BTW they also didn't like Poles much as well as helped nazis with Jewish on occasion. (look up "Massacres of Poles in Volhynia")
All this is fine as long as it stays in history books, bringing it into political power and armed forces really bothers me.
PS. Actually, even embracing this culture in Ukraine is fine by me, but when Canada embracing it, it becomes a problem for me

So these western Ukraine (Galician) Nazi SS were German?

Somehow what you say does not seem correct for what is taught in Canadian History courses.

Please note that I am not trying to insult you in any manner. I say this with all due respect. Thanks

[ak-71]

So these western Ukraine (Galician) Nazi SS were German?

Somehow what you say does not seem correct for what is taught in Canadian History courses.

Please note that I am not trying to insult you in any manner. I say this with all due respect. Thanks

Nope, Ukrainian. Just not all of Ukrainians fought against Germans, most did, but not all, some fought the war on the nazi's side. Western Ukraine (very small part of Ukraine) always had somewhat different attitude towards everything remotely Russian, or Ukrainian, that they deemed associated with anything Russian.
Used to be an odd (but always very vocal) guy here and there I met in a large number in Ukrainians I worked with or knew as friends. Over the last 15-10 years seems to become national idea, became apparent last year. Wonder who was so successful in promoting this?

Here is a wiki thing about the division: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_%281st_Ga lician%29

You can also look up "OUN-b" too - it's more of an independent militia army

Interesting picture from to realize that Ukraine was very un-united at some point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_%281st_Ga lician%29#mediaviewer/File:Lemberg280443-2.jpg

[qwert]

Having been under both shades of blue, I certainly preferred the darker NATO blue. It's easy for those watching the news to decry the peacekeeping, quite different for those on the ground.

A Canadian in command of the peacekeeping mission in Cyprus said,

"Peacekeeping is no job for a soldier, but only a soldier can do it."

[greylynx]

Nope, Ukrainian. Just not all of Ukrainians fought against Germans, most did, but not all, some fought the war on the nazi's side. Western Ukraine (very small part of Ukraine) always had somewhat different attitude towards everything remotely Russian, or Ukrainian, that they deemed associated with anything Russian.
Used to be an odd (but always very vocal) guy here and there I met in a large number in Ukrainians I worked with or knew as friends. Over the last 15-10 years seems to become national idea, became apparent last year. Wonder who was so successful in promoting this?

Here is a wiki thing about the division: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_%281st_Ga lician%29

You can also look up "OUN-b" too - it's more of an independent militia army

Interesting picture from to realize that Ukraine was very un-united at some point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_%281st_Ga lician%29#mediaviewer/File:Lemberg280443-2.jpg

OK:

Why would a bunch of Ukrainians want to fight for Germany?

You have implied that these western Ukrainians are not Ukrainian in your above posts, but you admit that they are Ukrainian in this past post.

This is sort of confusing.

Just wondering.

[ak-71]

I said: "You are confusing "Ukraine proper" and western Ukraine, most of the Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union long before WWII, western part (very small) was not. Western Ukraine actually manned it's own The 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS"
Can't see where I implied that western Ukrainians are not Ukrainians, but if it reads this way, then I am sorry. Never meant to say that.
English is not my forte, as you have probably noticed :).
As for "Why would a bunch of Ukrainians want to fight for Germany", I don't know, not a historian, and have not lived that long to remember.
My guess would be - a long history together, as parts of the western Ukraine belonged to Austro-Hungarian Empire.

But I don't really care why they did to be honest it's irrelevant at this point- as long as people come to senses and put this nazi crap back on it's shameful place in long past history

[greylynx]

I said: "You are confusing "Ukraine proper" and western Ukraine, most of the Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union long before WWII, western part (very small) was not. Western Ukraine actually manned it's own The 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS"
Can't see where I implied that western Ukrainians are not Ukrainians, but if it reads this way, then I am sorry. Never meant to say that.
English is not my forte, as you have probably noticed :).
As for "Why would a bunch of Ukrainians want to fight for Germany", I don't know, not a historian, and have not lived that long to remember.
My guess would be - a long history together, as parts of the western Ukraine belonged to Austro-Hungarian Empire.

But I don't really care why they did to be honest it's irrelevant at this point- as long as people come to senses and put this nazi crap back on it's shameful place in long past history

Thank you for your responses.

Another question:

Do you think the Holodomor has any significance in what is currently happening in Ukraine?

Do you think the acts of Lazar Kaganovich et. al. have something to do with western Ukraine being rather irritated?

I would like to thank you for your frank responses. Your english grammar is excellent.

[Grizzly Adams]

Why would a bunch of Ukrainians want to fight for Germany?

After Stalin starved 30 million of them to death, can't blame em for thinking they'd get a better deal from Hitler.

Grizz

[KGB]

Let me help you here: lots of things started up before the Russian revolution. As a consequences of it, communists decided to confiscate provision(grain, flower, potatoes, veggies, anything basically) from the Ukrainian villages and not only in eastern Ukraine but also in western. That's where the hate for commies came from. Also, in Ukraine ( just like in russia, by the way) the anti-semitism was a government policy at the beginning of the 20 century and was very wide spread. That's where the antisemitism came from. Both of those factors where present in Nazi ideology and western- Ukrainian ideology, that is why both parties felt close to each other. When Germans invaded USSR, lots of those people joined forces with them. Sme of them because they suffered from the commies and wanted the revenge, some of them because they were nothing but a bunch of bandits who wanted to kill and rob and just needed a reason and approval.

[ak-71]

Let me help you here: lots of things started up before the Russian revolution. As a consequences of it, communists decided to confiscate provision(grain, flower, potatoes, veggies, anything basically) from the Ukrainian villages and not only in eastern Ukraine but also in western. That's where the hate for commies came from. Also, in Ukraine ( just like in russia, by the way) the anti-semitism was a government policy at the beginning of the 20 century and was very wide spread. That's where the antisemitism came from. Both of those factors where present in Nazi ideology and western- Ukrainian ideology, that is why both parties felt close to each other. When Germans invaded USSR, lots of those people joined forces with them. Sme of them because they suffered from the commies and wanted the revenge, some of them because they were nothing but a bunch of bandits who wanted to kill and rob and just needed a reason and approval.

Does it all matter though? I mean: being nazi is bad, get a life, come to some piece in your own country, fix your problems and try to get ahead. End of the universal story.
There were whole bunch of of regions suffering from Golod (hunger in russian) and many deaths in USSR (later), sadly, because of the general stupidity of civil war and Russian "revolution", as any revolution, must have suffered in hope for the "bright" future , it's not an excuse to resurrect Nazism in each and every part of Russia or any other part of former Russian Empire.

[JimPS]

PS. Actually, even embracing this culture in Ukraine is fine by me, but when Canada embracing it, it becomes a problem for me

Ron Paul said last year’s incidents that overthrew the legally-elected government of Ukraine’s former president Viktor Yanukovych “was not only supported by US and EU governments — much of it was actually planned by them.””

This old boy is spot on in what he says - and he's not afraid to say it.

These psychopaths really want to start World War III. You do not need a crystal ball to see where all this is headed. It just gets uglier and uglier.

This psychotic march to war is scripted by madmen whose puppet strings are pulled by invisible demons who want to take down the entire world.

Standby - mushroom cloud city - or will it be mushroom cloud cities?

[HalfBreed]

I wonder if the puppet masters are the Oshkoshs, Grummans, Boeings, Lockheed Martins, et al of the world?

It's where the big dollars are that paves the trail.

[grouse_hunter]

Let me help you here: lots of things started up before the Russian revolution. As a consequences of it, communists decided to confiscate provision(grain, flower, potatoes, veggies, anything basically) from the Ukrainian villages and not only in eastern Ukraine but also in western. That's where the hate for commies came from. Also, in Ukraine ( just like in russia, by the way) the anti-semitism was a government policy at the beginning of the 20 century and was very wide spread. That's where the antisemitism came from. Both of those factors where present in Nazi ideology and western- Ukrainian ideology, that is why both parties felt close to each other. When Germans invaded USSR, lots of those people joined forces with them. Sme of them because they suffered from the commies and wanted the revenge, some of them because they were nothing but a bunch of bandits who wanted to kill and rob and just needed a reason and approval.

Two additional points:
- the group which created Soviet Union was almost exclusively Jewish ethnically speaking.
- Soviet Union had an anti-nationalist policy which made languages, religion and culture of many countries (Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, etc) illegal. Russian language was forced in school while the local culture and religion was vilified.

Does it sound like a good reason for growth of nationalist movements within the satellite Soviet republics and development of resentment towards Russia?

[ak-71]

Two additional points:
- the group which created Soviet Union was almost exclusively Jewish ethnically speaking.
- Soviet Union had an anti-nationalist policy which made languages, religion and culture of many countries (Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, etc) illegal. Russian language was forced in school while the local culture and religion was vilified.

Does it sound like a good reason for growth of nationalist movements within the satellite Soviet republics and development of resentment towards Russia?

Actually, USSR was messed up in a lot of various ways, but this is not one of them, not only languages were perfectly legal they also were taught in schools, but Russian language was defined as the language of "inter-national communication" in a constitution I think. There were just schools where every subject was taught in language used in particular republic, Russian language was a mandatory subject though
There are way too many myths about Russia and USSR in the west

[grouse_hunter]

Actually, USSR was messed up in a lot of various ways, but this is not one of them, not only languages were perfectly legal they also were taught in schools, but Russian language was defined as the language of "inter-national communication" in a constitution I think. There were just schools where every subject was taught in language used in particular republic, Russia was a mandatory subject though
There are way too many myths about Russia and USSR in the west

Is that why my dad had an "illegal" baptism in an underground Ukrainian church and there was no Ukrainian taught in schools at the time? Thats the late 60s to late 70s by the way.

[ak-71]

Is that why my dad had an "illegal" baptism in an underground Ukrainian church and there was no Ukrainian taught in schools at the time? Thats the late 60s to late 70s by the way.
I don't know about your grandpa situation, but in general if I hadn't seen those schools in Estonia I would have easier time believing you, I guess.
I will write to my university buddy, he is Uzbek and ask him, if you want. He taught us some simple words, worked pretty well at the markets in the middle of Siberia, with sellers from the south - almost certain discount :)

[ak-71]

Why would a bunch of Ukrainians want to fight for Germany?

After Stalin starved 30 million of them to death, can't blame em for thinking they'd get a better deal from Hitler.

Grizz
I've heard numbers up to 4 - 8 million by different scholars, which is a lot as I think all population of Ukraine was less then 30 million. That is one of the ways early Soviets were screwed up, hunger was a common thing back then, in 1920-22, for example 35 districts, including south Ukraine, experienced hunger ("golod" in Russian) with near Volga river region in Russia most well known (I don't know if it was the hardest hit in these years).
But I don't think it warrants joining nazi camp now nevertheless.

[greylynx]

I've heard numbers up to 4 - 8 million by different scholars, which is a lot as I think all population of Ukraine was less then 30 million. That is one of the ways early Soviets were screwed up, hunger was a common thing back then, in 1920-22, for example 35 districts, including south Ukraine, experienced hunger ("golod" in Russian) with near Volga river region in Russia most well known (I don't know if it was the hardest hit in these years).
But I don't think it warrants joining nazi camp now nevertheless.

Are you old enough to have talked to victims of the Holodomor in past years?

I am.

[ak-71]

Are you old enough to have talked to victims of the Holodomor in past years?

I am.
Are you? But I have known people who lost families and survived hungers in these years, one of my classmate grandmother for example
I have also know Germans who lived in Ukraine and Russia and were sent to Kazakhstan in, my grandfather was prohibited from living in large cities, there were a lot of really screwed up things in USSR. But somehow everybody managed to get along for the most part.

[ssyd]

How is it that these conspiracy theorist websites have gained so much respect? It's as if people have forgotten that not everything posted on the internet is true. It is painful to see these conspiracy theorists actually succeeding in discrediting the mainstream news.

[schmedlap]

Does it all matter though? I mean: being nazi is bad, get a life, come to some piece in your own country, fix your problems and try to get ahead. End of the universal story.
There were whole bunch of of regions suffering from Golod (hunger in russian) and many deaths in USSR (later), sadly, because of the general stupidity of civil war and Russian "revolution", as any revolution, must have suffered in hope for the "bright" future , it's not an excuse to resurrect Nazism in each and every part of Russia or any other part of former Russian Empire.
for very obvious and ongoing efforts to take back parts of the empire by force (?). I doubt anyone here is sympathetic to any form of Nazism, anywhere, anytime. I also doubt that they are fooled or influenced by a lot of apologism and revisionist history. But, maybe that is why the Czechs, Slovaks, East Germans, Poles, Moldavians, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Romanians, Baltic State peoples, Balkan State peoples, Georgians, Armenians, Kazaks, ... (all the others) ... are clamoring so hard to be put back under the Russian yoke - they had it so much better then (?):sHa_sarcasticlol:
Creating your own version of history can be comforting, I suppose. Or, to be more fair, selecting only the facts that fit your desired opinionative outcome.
If Ukraine were to degenerate into a state of Nazism (actually not unlike current Belarus? - or maybe that is just pure Russian sponsored corruption?), I would hope that "the West" would come to the aid of the oppressed people - that may be a false hope so long as weak leaders like Obama persist. But, right now, all the majority of those peoples want is the same democratic, self-determinative, political rights that we have. Those of them that do not are perfectly free to move to a nice pretential democracy like present Russia. They will have to accept the fact that if they dare to express any political dissent, they will probably be "eliminated with extreme prejudice".
As one of your countrymen, a guy named Solzhenitsyn (sp? - ever heard of him?) correctly pointed out many years ago, in fact the vast majority of Russians are "on our side". They want the same. They just have never, and still yet, been given any real opportunity to achieve this.

[KGB]

Two additional points:
- the group which created Soviet Union was almost exclusively Jewish

Does it sound like a good reason for growth of nationalist movements within the satellite Soviet republics and development of resentment towards Russia?

Not quite right.... Yes, there were lots of Jews at the head of the Russian revolution who were very idealistic and truly believed that they will be able to build a society where everybody is equal. That was utopia... The reason why so many Jews went into the revolution is because of years of hard discrimination and humiliation by the Russian church and the government. It was a tradition in Russia back then to blame Jews for everything from not enough rain to too much rain. To take a blame from the Goverment and put it on who? Of cause! Jews! That's what POGROM is for, so the peasants and proletariat can take their anger out... Anyway, long story short, this is a reason. But it is people like Stalin who actually derailed the idea and literally exterminated 99% of the people who started the process.

[ak-71]

for very obvious and ongoing efforts to take back parts of the empire by force (?). I doubt anyone here is sympathetic to any form of Nazism, anywhere, anytime. I also doubt that they are fooled or influenced by a lot of apologism and revisionist history. But, maybe that is why the Czechs, Slovaks, East Germans, Poles, Moldavians, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Romanians, Baltic State peoples, Balkan State peoples, Georgians, Armenians, Kazaks, ... (all the others) ... are clamoring so hard to be put back under the Russian yoke - they had it so much better then (?):sHa_sarcasticlol:
Creating your own version of history can be comforting, I suppose. Or, to be more fair, selecting only the facts that fit your desired opinionative outcome.
If Ukraine were to degenerate into a state of Nazism (actually not unlike current Belarus? - or maybe that is just pure Russian sponsored corruption?), I would hope that "the West" would come to the aid of the oppressed people - that may be a false hope so long as weak leaders like Obama persist. But, right now, all the majority of those peoples want is the same democratic, self-determinative, political rights that we have. Those of them that do not are perfectly free to move to a nice pretential democracy like present Russia. They will have to accept the fact that if they dare to express any political dissent, they will probably be "eliminated with extreme prejudice".
As one of your countrymen, a guy named Solzhenitsyn (sp? - ever heard of him?) correctly pointed out many years ago, in fact the vast majority of Russians are "on our side". They want the same. They just have never, and still yet, been given any real opportunity to achieve this.

You know, I don't even know where to start when I read about you talking about the history of this part of the world, from what you have written it looks that you are not only not qualified to talk about it, you are just completely unaware of it. You see, I have friends, have worked, lived and studied with more people of the nationalities from your list than you can spell right. Both I and my wife have more than 2 of them each in our blood, her niece, who visited us last year is half Kazakh - so try to learn the difference between "Kazak" and "Kazakh", I know it's all the same to you, but it's just embarrassing.
As for the personal believes in "Russian invasion" into Ukraine - unlike you (most likely) I have actually served in Russian army and I know how it doesn't look like. There is just no way for me to believe that this organization can remain invisible for such a long time in any significant numbers to change the course of the civil war in progress there. You see real life is different from Hollywood movies. For me it's a story designed for some people who are either not interested enough to think about it, or just plain incapable of thinking process. It just baffles me that it actually might work.
PS. Google up the difference between Nazism and dictatorship, and never ever get confused again if you are in Belarus, if you research civilian losses this country suffered in WWII you'll know why, you might as well just do it - I am sure it will blow your mind

[barsik]

You know, I don't even know where to start when I read about you talking about the history of this part of the world, from what you have written it looks that you are not only not qualified to talk about it, you are just completely unaware of it. You see, I have friends, have worked, lived and studied with more people of the nationalities from your list than you can spell right. Both I and my wife have more than 2 of them each in our blood, her niece, who visited us last year is half Kazakh - so try to learn the difference between "Kazak" and "Kazakh", I know it's all the same to you, but it's just embarrassing.
As for the personal believes in "Russian invasion" into Ukraine - unlike you (most likely) I have actually served in Russian army and I know how it doesn't look like. There is just no way for me to believe that this organization can remain invisible for such a long time in any significant numbers to change the course of the civil war in progress there. You see real life is different from Hollywood movies. For me it's a story designed for some people who are either not interested enough to think about it, or just plain incapable of thinking process. It just baffles me that it actually might work.
PS. Google up the difference between Nazism and dictatorship, and never ever get confused again if you are in Belarus, if you research civilian losses this country suffered in WWII you'll know why, you might as well just do it - I am sure it will blow your mind



well, it's nice to see your true colors. a Russian sympathizer. most of your compatriots never reveal who they are, but they certainly take every opportunity to bash Ukraine and demonize them. here is some reading material for you.
www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/the-kremlins-troll-army/375932/

[ak-71]

To respond to people who believe that national languages were outlawed.
Just got a reply from my Uzbek friend he went to school in 70's-80's, he says places he lived in had national schools and schools taught in Russian had national language as a mandatory subject. It's amazing how quickly people in both West and Russia are slipping into a Cold War mentality. Reminds me pre-Iraq rhetoric so much, it's just scary.

[ak-71]

well, it's nice to see your true colors. a Russian sympathizer. most of your compatriots never reveal who they are, but they certainly take every opportunity to bash Ukraine and demonize them. here is some reading material for you.
www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/the-kremlins-troll-army/375932/

Would you show me where I demonize anybody for a reason of nationality, would you? I don't like Nazi's regardless of what nationality they are. Some people here for some reason keep coming up with excuses for being one, it's a slippery slope IMHO
What do you mean by "Russian sympathizer", I am Russian as you might have guessed, so what? If you don't like Russians in general, then you have some issues with racism, not me.

[Wild&Free]

well, it's nice to see your true colors. a Russian sympathizer. most of your compatriots never reveal who they are, but they certainly take every opportunity to bash Ukraine and demonize them. here is some reading material for you.
www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/the-kremlins-troll-army/375932/

Great link to a pretty biased outlet. I haven't read anything from the Atlantic that wasn't severely skewed to form an opinion for you.

[Okotokian]

So, I see Obama had a Russian opposition leader and one of Putin's chief rivals murdered, eh Silver? ;)

[JimPS]

Would you show me where I demonize anybody for a reason of nationality, would you? I don't like Nazi's regardless of what nationality they are. Some people here for some reason keep coming up with excuses for being one, it's a slippery slope IMHO
What do you mean by "Russian sympathizer", I am Russian as you might have guessed, so what? If you don't like Russians in general, then you have some issues with racism, not me.

I for one certainly appreciate your insights into Russian history.

I don't like Nazi's either. Some people here that have no sense of their own history forget that Fascism was what their fathers and grandfathers fought against in World War II.

It is a slippery slope indeed.

[airbornedeerhunter]

I will if you will... How many wars has the US "wolf" started since 9/11, 5 or 6? Countries are in shambles because of it. What have they done with the blank check they wrote themselves on 9/11 in the fight against terror...? How many countries are next on the list? Syria for sure... That door swings both ways Oko.

Where does it end. Now Canada is up to it's arse in Ukraine and Iraq. We used to be a peacekeeping nation, could go anywhere and be treated as friendly. WTF happened. We are definitely not doing peacekeeping in these nations.

There's reasons why much of the middle east hates the west.

I wasn't going to weigh in on this thread until I read this and it struck a nerve. The myth that Canada "used to be a peacekeeping nation" really gets under my skin. The only people who make that claim are leftists who have absolutely no idea what peacekeeping is, how it was done and the reasons for it. Peacekeeping was a joke, a way for Canada to maintain an international military presence on the cheap and wave the flag. It was an excuse for successive governments to nickel and dime the forces to death and resulted in what we called "the hollow army". Looks good on the outside, but nothing doing in the middle.

To call professional soldiers, sailors and airmen "peacekeepers" is a four letter word in military circles. Yes, peacekeeping was a part of our military history but so was WW1, WW2, Korea and the Gulf War. Ask anyone who was in 2 PPCLI in the Medak Pocket in '93 how much "peacekeeping" they were doing. It was hidden from the public that Canadian soldiers on peacekeeping duty in the Balkans were regularly engaged in firefights and killing Croats.

In order for a peacekeeping mission to be undertaken it has to be implemented by the UN or NATO as an actual peacekeeping or peace enforcement operation. I used to pull my hair out during the Afghanistan war years when people would say " we should only be there as peacekeepers" That statement alone is about as foolish as they come. The definition of a peacekeeping operation is preventing two warring factions from engaging one another or enforcing ceasefire agreements and monitoring abuse of human rights. Did those people think that we should have sent blue helmeted peacekeepers to Afghanistan to stand in between the Taliban and our allies and prevent them from fighting??? Absolutely brain dead point of view.

Listen, I've been all over the world and there is no deviation or change in the way Canadians are viewed since we shed the white feather of the peacekeeping era. Canada was never a peacekeeping nation.

[JimPS]

So, I see Obama had a Russian opposition leader and one of Putin's chief rivals murdered, eh Silver? ;)

Putin reportedly has an 86% approval rating for his actions in the Ukraine.

Boris Nemtsov, depending where you get your information, had the support of 1.0 - 4.5% of Russians.

Even Gorbachev says Nemtsov's assassination was a plot to destabilize Russia.

Of course US sanctions are not intended to destabilize a nation - they have always been squeaky clean in their clandestine operations around the globe.

What would Putin gain by eliminating Nemtsov?

And who but a psychopath would want to destabilize a nuclear nation and potentially cause WW III?

This Ukraine Crisis is the Cuban Missile Crisis in reverse.

[silverdoctor]

I wasn't going to weigh in on this thread until I read this and it struck a nerve. The myth that Canada "used to be a peacekeeping nation" really gets under my skin. The only people who make that claim are leftists who have absolutely no idea what peacekeeping is, how it was done and the reasons for it. Peacekeeping was a joke, a way for Canada to maintain an international military presence on the cheap and wave the flag. It was an excuse for successive governments to nickel and dime the forces to death and resulted in what we called "the hollow army". Looks good on the outside, but nothing doing in the middle.

To call professional soldiers, sailors and airmen "peacekeepers" is a four letter word in military circles. Yes, peacekeeping was a part of our military history but so was WW1, WW2, Korea and the Gulf War. Ask anyone who was in 2 PPCLI in the Medak Pocket in '93 how much "peacekeeping" they were doing. It was hidden from the public that Canadian soldiers on peacekeeping duty in the Balkans were regularly engaged in firefights and killing Croats.

In order for a peacekeeping mission to be undertaken it has to be implemented by the UN or NATO as an actual peacekeeping or peace enforcement operation. I used to pull my hair out during the Afghanistan war years when people would say " we should only be there as peacekeepers" That statement alone is about as foolish as they come. The definition of a peacekeeping operation is preventing two warring factions from engaging one another or enforcing ceasefire agreements and monitoring abuse of human rights. Did those people think that we should have sent blue helmeted peacekeepers to Afghanistan to stand in between the Taliban and our allies and prevent them from fighting??? Absolutely brain dead point of view.


My post wasn't a weighing in, I'm glad someone finally outed it. Peacekeeping nation was the impression - sort of like calling Korea a police action when it was a war. It allows folk back home to sleep well because they are safe in the notion that we are not at war, we're peacekeeping. But if your words had come out of my mouth, I would have been fireballed. So thank you for that.


Listen, I've been all over the world and there is no deviation or change in the way Canadians are viewed since we shed the white feather of the peacekeeping era. Canada was never a peacekeeping nation.

If that were 100% true, we wouldn't have any fear of terror threats would we? It's only in the last couple of years that people have really become afraid.

[airbornedeerhunter]

My post wasn't a weighing in, I'm glad someone finally outed it. Peacekeeping nation was the impression - sort of like calling Korea a police action when it was a war. It allows folk back home to sleep well because they are safe in the notion that we are not at war, we're peacekeeping. But if your words had come out of my mouth, I would have been fireballed. So thank you for that.



If that were 100% true, we wouldn't have any fear of terror threats would we? It's only in the last couple of years that people have really become afraid.

I'm not afraid. And if the pie in sky lefties had gotten their wish and Canada had only deployed soldiers to act as peacekeepers- we still would be a target as even people in blue helmets would be considered infidels.

[JimPS]

I'm not afraid. And if the pie in sky lefties had gotten their wish and Canada had only deployed soldiers to act as peacekeepers- we still would be a target as even people in blue helmets would be considered infidels.

Wrong - if Canada did not deploy soldiers we'd all be walking around right now wearing armbands and sporting goofy haircuts.

The history of the world did not start with blue helmets and infidels - or for that matter, armbands and goofy haircuts.

[silverdoctor]

I'm not afraid. And if the pie in sky lefties had gotten their wish and Canada had only deployed soldiers to act as peacekeepers- we still would be a target as even people in blue helmets would be considered infidels.

Quite possibly yes. But in the last few years, has Canada's barking on the world stage been helping matters here at home?

You're not afraid, nor am I. All one need do is read AO to realize how many are afraid of the terror threat.

[airbornedeerhunter]

Wrong - if Canada did not deploy soldiers we'd all be walking around right now wearing armbands and sporting goofy haircuts.

The history of the world did not start with blue helmets and infidels - or for that matter, armbands and goofy haircuts.

??????? Why would we be wearing armbands with goofy haircuts because of Afghanistan????

[ak-71]

Is that why my dad had an "illegal" baptism in an underground Ukrainian church and there was no Ukrainian taught in schools at the time? Thats the late 60s to late 70s by the way.

BTW, I as a kid was baptized in a legal Russian orthodox church by my religious grandmother in early 70's, tradition, I guess, my brother in 60's - fine by me if it made her happy

[Okotokian]

Putin reportedly has an 86% approval rating for his actions in the Ukraine.


What would Putin gain by eliminating Nemtsov?

And who but a psychopath would want to destabilize a nuclear nation and potentially cause WW III?



Most of those things could be said about Hitler's Germany as well. High approval ratings, yet still eliminated his opposition. Putin doesn't want to destabilize his country, he wants to consolidate his power further.

Plenty of Putin opponents killed over the years, or jailed. Strangely, Obama has not had any of his domestic opponents assassinated. I don't think Glenn Beck or Republican house leader Boehner fear for their lives. ;)

[ak-71]

Most of those things could be said about Hitler's Germany as well. High approval ratings, yet still eliminated his opposition. Putin doesn't want to destabilize his country, he wants to consolidate his power further.

Plenty of Putin opponents killed over the years, or jailed. Strangely, Obama has not had any of his domestic opponents assassinated. I don't think Glenn Beck or Republican house leader Boehner fear for their lives. ;)

If Putin chose this moment in his career to kill irrelevant leader of opposition a few steps away from the Kremlin, in supposedly most secure area of his country (which I think is as much of an illusion as a lot of other things in Russia), during the times when he is clearly perceived as a main threat to humanity, then Putin is no villain, but a complete idiot.
Not saying that he didn't, or I have any ideas who did, but this version would amuse me a lot.

[JimPS]

??????? Why would we be wearing armbands with goofy haircuts because of Afghanistan????

CHILDREN OF A LESSER WAR

We are children of a lesser war

A petty skirmish, nothing more,

The bluebirds won’t sing over

The white cliffs of Dover

For us,

There will be no fuss

Just a footnote in our history

No Vera Lynn, no mystery

No Nazis in the countryside

Or turning back the evil tide

Just tattered gaps in people’s lives

Grieving wives

No fly-by at the Cenotaph

Sing songs where people laugh

Through the Blitz,

Defying Fritz

We envy them that cause

Not like our wars

No equals in Afghanistan

No tussles man to man

No Luftwaffe in Iraq

No Bletchley Park

Just car bombs and smell

A cut-price hell

No Winston, just windbags

We won’t see waving flags

Just body bags and sad parades

Until a sordid peace is made

Nothing solved

Nothing gained

James Milton

[airbornedeerhunter]

CHILDREN OF A LESSER WAR

We are children of a lesser war

A petty skirmish, nothing more,

The bluebirds won’t sing over

The white cliffs of Dover

For us,

There will be no fuss

Just a footnote in our history

No Vera Lynn, no mystery

No Nazis in the countryside

Or turning back the evil tide

Just tattered gaps in people’s lives

Grieving wives

No fly-by at the Cenotaph

Sing songs where people laugh

Through the Blitz,

Defying Fritz

We envy them that cause

Not like our wars

No equals in Afghanistan

No tussles man to man

No Luftwaffe in Iraq

No Bletchley Park

Just car bombs and smell

A cut-price hell

No Winston, just windbags

We won’t see waving flags

Just body bags and sad parades

Until a sordid peace is made

Nothing solved

Nothing gained

James Milton


Are you taking medication?

[JimPS]

Are you taking medication?

This poem is correct in that the Luftwaffe didn't participate in the invasion of Iraq, but they were actually part of the NATO forces in Afghanistan.

[Matt L.]

This poem is correct in that the Luftwaffe didn't participate in the invasion of Iraq, but they were actually part of the NATO forces in Afghanistan.

I'm with airborne here, what point are you trying to make? Because as far as I can tell, you aren't making one at all.

[silverdoctor]

What's wrong with this picture? From this RT article? A gas pipeline in Ukraine.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2015/03/02/390154800/a-new-front-in-the-ukrainian-conflict-russian-gas-imports


http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2015/03/02/gettyimages_451327198_custom-39bc1842c9cd5aa79e8f6d033e7473aa573d1bdb-s800-c85.jpg

[KGB]

Wrong - if Canada did not deploy soldiers we'd all be walking around right now wearing armbands and sporting goofy haircuts.

The history of the world did not start with blue helmets and infidels - or for that matter, armbands and goofy haircuts.

I think he is talking about Nazi Germany here.

[schmedlap]

I wasn't going to weigh in on this thread until I read this and it struck a nerve. The myth that Canada "used to be a peacekeeping nation" really gets under my skin. The only people who make that claim are leftists who have absolutely no idea what peacekeeping is, how it was done and the reasons for it. Peacekeeping was a joke, a way for Canada to maintain an international military presence on the cheap and wave the flag. It was an excuse for successive governments to nickel and dime the forces to death and resulted in what we called "the hollow army". Looks good on the outside, but nothing doing in the middle.

To call professional soldiers, sailors and airmen "peacekeepers" is a four letter word in military circles. Yes, peacekeeping was a part of our military history but so was WW1, WW2, Korea and the Gulf War. Ask anyone who was in 2 PPCLI in the Medak Pocket in '93 how much "peacekeeping" they were doing. It was hidden from the public that Canadian soldiers on peacekeeping duty in the Balkans were regularly engaged in firefights and killing Croats.

In order for a peacekeeping mission to be undertaken it has to be implemented by the UN or NATO as an actual peacekeeping or peace enforcement operation. I used to pull my hair out during the Afghanistan war years when people would say " we should only be there as peacekeepers" That statement alone is about as foolish as they come. The definition of a peacekeeping operation is preventing two warring factions from engaging one another or enforcing ceasefire agreements and monitoring abuse of human rights. Did those people think that we should have sent blue helmeted peacekeepers to Afghanistan to stand in between the Taliban and our allies and prevent them from fighting??? Absolutely brain dead point of view.

Listen, I've been all over the world and there is no deviation or change in the way Canadians are viewed since we shed the white feather of the peacekeeping era. Canada was never a peacekeeping nation.
Turdo I and his decimation of our armed forces was the reason my Dad (a real "soldier" - a WWII vet, Navy pilot, squadron leader, and ship commander of considerable repute, 27 years service) left CF in disgust for early retirement, instead of taking a promotion and continuing to oversee the dismantlement and bureaucratization of the forces, back in 1968. The "peace keeping" label was a major part of the excuses for not carrying our weight amongst our allies on the military side of things. Not to denigrate the role, as such, at all - the "peace keepers" did fantastic work relative to the resources they had. But we should be ashamed of that lack of real military resources for our CF during those years (and even now?).
PM Mulroney was the beginning of some change in approach (you can dislike him for other things, but...). He made it very clear that there is no doubt "which side we are on" in terms of foreign engagements, and tried (and succeeded to some extent) to reverse the course. The problem for him and succeeding governments, politically, is the reluctance of the populace to concur on the need to carry our fair share of the burden in terms of cost. Still a major political pitfall - evidenced by the contoversy over every attempt to properly equip CF, in any of its quadrants. The Leftards stubbornly and very effectively resist every effort in this respect, and major components of the populace would apparently rather fund new snowmobile trails and "cultural" endeavours than give our forces the resources they need to fulfil our appropriate role on the world stage, or even just to defend ourselves against those who despise democracy. Or even to just "police" our coastlines and resources.
God help us (metaphoric since I am "non-theist" - that is really "PC"?), if Turdo II gets the reigns.