Dean2
06-05-2015, 11:38 AM
Amsoil goes to great lengths on their website to make consumers believe that their synthetic Injector and other 2 stroke motor oils are TC-W3 approved. However, the NMMA, who issues the certification has clearly told me Amsoil 2 stroke oil has Not been TC-W3 approved by them.
In addition, when you question Amsoil real hard on the issue, they will finally admit to not being certified.
Amsoil site with the certification claims.
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-equipment/marine/pleasure-boats/synthetic-2-stroke-injector-oil/
Text of Email from NMMA confirming Amsoil 2 stroke oil is not TC-W3
approved
From: Tom Marhevko [mailto:tmarhevko@nmma.org]
Sent: Friday, June 05, 2015 10:54 AM
To: Dean
Subject: RE: Amsoil 2 Stroke Outboard Injection Oil
Hello Dean,
Amsoil has certified four stroke oils but no certified two stroke oils. If you can send me the website where you have found this I will handle.
Thank you.
Regards,
Thomas J. Marhevko
VP
NMMA Engineering Standards Department
231 S. LaSalle Street
Suite 2050
Chicago, IL 60604
Text of Email with Amsoil
From: Zupec, Don [mailto:dzupec@Amsoil.com]
Sent: Friday, June 05, 2015 10:13 AM
Cc: Anderson, Aaron; Pettit, Josh
Subject: RE: Technical Service Contact Form - New Website
Dean,
Our two-cycle oils are compatible with other two-cycle oils, including synthetic, semi-synthetic, and petroleum based products. It is a good idea to avoid, when you can, mixing different brand of oils, since oils are not formulated exactly the same, and performance of the lubricant can be compromised from its original form. Regarding Certification, AMSOIL chooses not to certify and the law does not require that lubricant manufacture need to certify their oils. As long as the product is formulated to meet or exceed the specification, in this case TC-W3, and indicate that the product is suitable for use where that given specification is called for on the product label, this is acceptable. Below are links as to AMSOIL’s position on certification and licensing. I hope this helps clarify things for you.
How does AMSOIL INC. ensure that its products meet or exceed the minimum specifications of the tests required for API licensing?
Answer: First, AMSOIL INC. works closely with major additive companies to select the top-performing, and usually most expensive, passenger car and heavy-duty diesel motor oil additives. These additives have already passed all of the API licensing requirements in a petroleum- or synthetic-based formulation. Then, AMSOIL works with the additive company to maximize the amount of additive used and to boost the additive package in selected performance areas to achieve an optimum performing additive package for the intended application. This is unlike many other oil companies that, because additives are expensive, use the minimum amount of the least expensive additives required to meet the minimum API requirements.
AMSOIL then uses a combination of synthetic base stocks with known performance characteristics as replacements for the petroleum base stocks to optimize performance in areas of lubricity, volatility, viscosity index, oxidation and nitration resistance, pour point, flash point, deposit control, soot handling, emissions and many other areas as well. AMSOIL also uses a high-quality V.I. improver with outstanding viscosity and cleanliness properties. This replaces the inexpensive, low-quality V.I. improver used in standard API-licensed petroleum formulas. AMSOIL does laboratory bench tests and runs field tests to verify the superiority of the synthetic formula. AMSOIL continues to monitor the performance of the oil through close scrutiny of tens of thousands of oil analysis tests per year across a wide variety of vehicles all around North America and the world. AMSOIL INC. has been collecting used synthetic oil samples from passenger cars since 1982. No other oil company has such a vast database of the performance of synthetic lubricants over extended drain intervals. AMSOIL products and formulations outperform API-licensed oils because they are engineered for top performance from the very beginning.
Is there any flexibility in manufacturing an API-licensed formula?
Answer: API licensing was originally developed for mineral-based oils, and it affords these oils more flexibility than synthetic oils. Conventional oils comprised of petroleum base stocks may use a simple program called base stock interchange for added flexibility in manufacturing and purchasing. Interchange means that by completing the proper paperwork and running a few minor tests an oil company can choose to buy these petroleum base stocks from many different suppliers. This ensures adequate supply and competitive pricing. However, synthetic base stocks are supplier specific and base stock interchange is not allowed. For example, if a formula was tested with an ester base stock from a specific supplier then only that supplier's ester can be used. Complete engine testing would be required to use that exact same ester from another supplier and is therefore not performed because of the associated costs. This inflexibility makes price negotiations with synthetic base stock suppliers very difficult and increases business risk. Supply disruptions from only one source could shut down production.
There is also something called viscosity grade read-across. Fortunately, this applies to both petroleum and synthetic base stocks, although the better cold-temperature performance of synthetics makes it more difficult to achieve in some situations. The read-across guidelines ensure that if a manufacturer properly formulates the lubricant for which all of the API tests have been performed, then the manufacturer may use that same basic formula to make more grades (i.e. 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, etc.) of the same motor oil.
Finally, there is a rule for substitutions in the Chemical Manufacturers Association (CMA) code of practice that allows a small degree of flexibility for all formulas. It allows a company to make changes to certain components in the formula with limited testing and paperwork requirements, provided that the additives are at the same or higher concentration.
________________________________________
Why doesn’t AMSOIL license all of its synthetic motor oils?
Answer: If all AMSOIL motor oils were API licensed, the company could not source new raw materials from multiple suppliers, which would greatly increase the threat of supply disruption and the likelihood of extraordinarily high prices. To solve this problem, the API must establish base stock interchange guidelines for synthetic base stocks just as they have for other base stocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too. Furthermore, licensing formulas limits the ability to quickly adopt new technologies as they are discovered; each variation from the originally licensed formula requires re-submission for complete engine testing (see the Ask AMSOIL entry above for more information).
Don Zupec
Technical Services Manager
AMSOIL INC.
ADDRESS: 1 AMSOIL Center, Superior, WI 54880
E-MAIL: dzupec@amsoil.com
PHONE: 715-399-6343
FAX: 715-399-6643
Sent: Friday, June 05, 2015 10:43 AM
To: Anderson, Aaron; Pettit, Josh; AMSOIL Resolution
Cc: ennyman@cp.duluth.mn.us
Subject: RE: Technical Service Contact Form - New Website
Importance: High
Guys
I am still waiting for your answer to this question. If I don’t get a satisfactory answer I fully intend to take this a bunch higher.
Dean
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2015 2:05 PM
To: Anderson, Aaron (aanderson@Amsoil.com); Pettit, Josh (jpettit@Amsoil.com)
Subject: RE: Technical Service Contact Form - New Website
One other question, I checked the list of “Approved” TC-W3 certified oils and Amsoil does not show up. Can you clarify that as well please
Okay then I have a REAL big question for you. How can you claim that your Outboard Injector Oil is TC-W3 certified. One of the key requirements for that certification is that it MUST BE COMPATIBLE with all other TC-W3 oils whether synthetic, semi-synthetic of Dino oil.
Dean
From: Anderson, Aaron [mailto:aanderson@Amsoil.com]
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 8:39 AM
Cc: Pettit, Josh
Subject: RE: Technical Service Contact Form - New Website
Dean,
Yes, you will want to empty the reservoir of the Yamaha oil prior to putting the AMSOIL 2 Stroke Injector Oil into it. Rule of thumb is to never mix two different two cycle oils together since there can be compatibility issues by doing so.
Aaron
All the dancing around they do in their answer talks about API certification of motor oils. (How many of you are actually aware Amsoil 4 stroke oil ins't API certified either). None of it actually deals with the question of TC-W3 certification. So in my books, any company that tries this hard to mislead me is not someone I want to trust and do business with. You hear a lot of anecdotal stories of how great their products are but this type of snake oil marketing means I don't trust these guys at all.
People are free to do and buy as they like but figured we should all at least be fully informed.
In addition, when you question Amsoil real hard on the issue, they will finally admit to not being certified.
Amsoil site with the certification claims.
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-equipment/marine/pleasure-boats/synthetic-2-stroke-injector-oil/
Text of Email from NMMA confirming Amsoil 2 stroke oil is not TC-W3
approved
From: Tom Marhevko [mailto:tmarhevko@nmma.org]
Sent: Friday, June 05, 2015 10:54 AM
To: Dean
Subject: RE: Amsoil 2 Stroke Outboard Injection Oil
Hello Dean,
Amsoil has certified four stroke oils but no certified two stroke oils. If you can send me the website where you have found this I will handle.
Thank you.
Regards,
Thomas J. Marhevko
VP
NMMA Engineering Standards Department
231 S. LaSalle Street
Suite 2050
Chicago, IL 60604
Text of Email with Amsoil
From: Zupec, Don [mailto:dzupec@Amsoil.com]
Sent: Friday, June 05, 2015 10:13 AM
Cc: Anderson, Aaron; Pettit, Josh
Subject: RE: Technical Service Contact Form - New Website
Dean,
Our two-cycle oils are compatible with other two-cycle oils, including synthetic, semi-synthetic, and petroleum based products. It is a good idea to avoid, when you can, mixing different brand of oils, since oils are not formulated exactly the same, and performance of the lubricant can be compromised from its original form. Regarding Certification, AMSOIL chooses not to certify and the law does not require that lubricant manufacture need to certify their oils. As long as the product is formulated to meet or exceed the specification, in this case TC-W3, and indicate that the product is suitable for use where that given specification is called for on the product label, this is acceptable. Below are links as to AMSOIL’s position on certification and licensing. I hope this helps clarify things for you.
How does AMSOIL INC. ensure that its products meet or exceed the minimum specifications of the tests required for API licensing?
Answer: First, AMSOIL INC. works closely with major additive companies to select the top-performing, and usually most expensive, passenger car and heavy-duty diesel motor oil additives. These additives have already passed all of the API licensing requirements in a petroleum- or synthetic-based formulation. Then, AMSOIL works with the additive company to maximize the amount of additive used and to boost the additive package in selected performance areas to achieve an optimum performing additive package for the intended application. This is unlike many other oil companies that, because additives are expensive, use the minimum amount of the least expensive additives required to meet the minimum API requirements.
AMSOIL then uses a combination of synthetic base stocks with known performance characteristics as replacements for the petroleum base stocks to optimize performance in areas of lubricity, volatility, viscosity index, oxidation and nitration resistance, pour point, flash point, deposit control, soot handling, emissions and many other areas as well. AMSOIL also uses a high-quality V.I. improver with outstanding viscosity and cleanliness properties. This replaces the inexpensive, low-quality V.I. improver used in standard API-licensed petroleum formulas. AMSOIL does laboratory bench tests and runs field tests to verify the superiority of the synthetic formula. AMSOIL continues to monitor the performance of the oil through close scrutiny of tens of thousands of oil analysis tests per year across a wide variety of vehicles all around North America and the world. AMSOIL INC. has been collecting used synthetic oil samples from passenger cars since 1982. No other oil company has such a vast database of the performance of synthetic lubricants over extended drain intervals. AMSOIL products and formulations outperform API-licensed oils because they are engineered for top performance from the very beginning.
Is there any flexibility in manufacturing an API-licensed formula?
Answer: API licensing was originally developed for mineral-based oils, and it affords these oils more flexibility than synthetic oils. Conventional oils comprised of petroleum base stocks may use a simple program called base stock interchange for added flexibility in manufacturing and purchasing. Interchange means that by completing the proper paperwork and running a few minor tests an oil company can choose to buy these petroleum base stocks from many different suppliers. This ensures adequate supply and competitive pricing. However, synthetic base stocks are supplier specific and base stock interchange is not allowed. For example, if a formula was tested with an ester base stock from a specific supplier then only that supplier's ester can be used. Complete engine testing would be required to use that exact same ester from another supplier and is therefore not performed because of the associated costs. This inflexibility makes price negotiations with synthetic base stock suppliers very difficult and increases business risk. Supply disruptions from only one source could shut down production.
There is also something called viscosity grade read-across. Fortunately, this applies to both petroleum and synthetic base stocks, although the better cold-temperature performance of synthetics makes it more difficult to achieve in some situations. The read-across guidelines ensure that if a manufacturer properly formulates the lubricant for which all of the API tests have been performed, then the manufacturer may use that same basic formula to make more grades (i.e. 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, etc.) of the same motor oil.
Finally, there is a rule for substitutions in the Chemical Manufacturers Association (CMA) code of practice that allows a small degree of flexibility for all formulas. It allows a company to make changes to certain components in the formula with limited testing and paperwork requirements, provided that the additives are at the same or higher concentration.
________________________________________
Why doesn’t AMSOIL license all of its synthetic motor oils?
Answer: If all AMSOIL motor oils were API licensed, the company could not source new raw materials from multiple suppliers, which would greatly increase the threat of supply disruption and the likelihood of extraordinarily high prices. To solve this problem, the API must establish base stock interchange guidelines for synthetic base stocks just as they have for other base stocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too. Furthermore, licensing formulas limits the ability to quickly adopt new technologies as they are discovered; each variation from the originally licensed formula requires re-submission for complete engine testing (see the Ask AMSOIL entry above for more information).
Don Zupec
Technical Services Manager
AMSOIL INC.
ADDRESS: 1 AMSOIL Center, Superior, WI 54880
E-MAIL: dzupec@amsoil.com
PHONE: 715-399-6343
FAX: 715-399-6643
Sent: Friday, June 05, 2015 10:43 AM
To: Anderson, Aaron; Pettit, Josh; AMSOIL Resolution
Cc: ennyman@cp.duluth.mn.us
Subject: RE: Technical Service Contact Form - New Website
Importance: High
Guys
I am still waiting for your answer to this question. If I don’t get a satisfactory answer I fully intend to take this a bunch higher.
Dean
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2015 2:05 PM
To: Anderson, Aaron (aanderson@Amsoil.com); Pettit, Josh (jpettit@Amsoil.com)
Subject: RE: Technical Service Contact Form - New Website
One other question, I checked the list of “Approved” TC-W3 certified oils and Amsoil does not show up. Can you clarify that as well please
Okay then I have a REAL big question for you. How can you claim that your Outboard Injector Oil is TC-W3 certified. One of the key requirements for that certification is that it MUST BE COMPATIBLE with all other TC-W3 oils whether synthetic, semi-synthetic of Dino oil.
Dean
From: Anderson, Aaron [mailto:aanderson@Amsoil.com]
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 8:39 AM
Cc: Pettit, Josh
Subject: RE: Technical Service Contact Form - New Website
Dean,
Yes, you will want to empty the reservoir of the Yamaha oil prior to putting the AMSOIL 2 Stroke Injector Oil into it. Rule of thumb is to never mix two different two cycle oils together since there can be compatibility issues by doing so.
Aaron
All the dancing around they do in their answer talks about API certification of motor oils. (How many of you are actually aware Amsoil 4 stroke oil ins't API certified either). None of it actually deals with the question of TC-W3 certification. So in my books, any company that tries this hard to mislead me is not someone I want to trust and do business with. You hear a lot of anecdotal stories of how great their products are but this type of snake oil marketing means I don't trust these guys at all.
People are free to do and buy as they like but figured we should all at least be fully informed.