Getting paid for power

[rbouchard]

Wow something I actually agree with. This is something that has bothered me for a while now. I all ways thought it was crap that the power companies got any excess power from you for free.

http://www.cbc.ca/1.3417377

[260 Rem]

No doubt a piece of forward thinking legislation. The existing regulations put in place by the PC's stifled individual entrepreneurial initiative by protecting big corporate interests. If the California experience is any indicator, we can expect lobbying by the big power corps to protect their interests.

[CaberTosser]

Decentralized power generation also reduces stresses on the distribution grid. The more spread out power generation is the better.

[fish_e_o]

Decentralized power generation also reduces stresses on the distribution grid. The more spread out power generation is the better.

yup, i've been waiting for something like this. i'm also waiting for a big government incentive to do it too :sHa_sarcasticlol:

[lund17]

yup, i've been waiting for something like this. i'm also waiting for a big government incentive to do it too :sHa_sarcasticlol:

I heard some rumblings about this last fall and I would be thrilled if this went through. I have 2 solar projects that I want to do but I put both on hold last fall.

[rbouchard]

With this legislation in place your ROI may very well make doing solar and wind generation more attractive for sure. Being able to be grid tied reduces the cost of having a system as the need for batteries and a generator are greatly reduced. From the research I have done those 2 things are the most expensive parts of your system.

[hal53]

With this legislation in place your ROI may very well make doing solar and wind generation more attractive for sure. Being able to be grid tied reduces the cost of having a system as the need for batteries and a generator are greatly reduced. From the research I have done those 2 things are the most expensive parts of your system.
What percentage of your power bill now is for actual power used?

[Wild&Free]

What percentage of your power bill now is for actual power used?

for me it's about 50%

[deerguy]

One of the few NDP plans that actually makes sense

[Sledhead71]

Not a fan of this initiative myself with-out well thought out regulations in regards to any enhancements to produce power.

The landscape will ultimately pay the price.

[fish_e_o]

Not a fan of this initiative myself with-out well thought out regulations in regards to any enhancements to produce power.

The landscape will ultimately pay the price.

why not? the average person should be able to get in on the power generation business. worst case scenario it pushes prices down due to higher supply and we'll need that soon enough

[ivegonefishing]

I think this is a great idea, no question about that! Not only do the big power producers benefit (added product to sell, and a delayed need for massive generating stations) but so does the individual generator of energy who can put this income against their costs to set up and maintain and then turn a profit.

My question is this: at what rate does the micro-generator get paid at?

Also heard of a company that might have charged back line transmission fees, etc. to the individual supplying the power. Note: Not sure about this point, but thought I heard it some time ago. Maybe someone on here could address this issue. Thanks.

[FCLightning]

why not? the average person should be able to get in on the power generation business. worst case scenario it pushes prices down due to higher supply and we'll need that soon enough

If it pushes the price down there certainly would be no incentive for anyone to put in a solar farm - they can't operate at break even over their life expectancy at the prices we have now.

[rbouchard]

Not a fan of this initiative myself with-out well thought out regulations in regards to any enhancements to produce power.

The landscape will ultimately pay the price.

How exactly will landscape pay the price? For me and I think 99.9% of anyone considering this it will either be on my roof or close to my house (I live in country)

[rugatika]

Great idea. I wonder if the government would allow income generated from alt energy to be tax free? And pay 80% of my installation costs? If they really care about mother earth they would. :sHa_shakeshout:

[rbouchard]

The system I have planned will take care of 100% of my power needs even in winter and will run us about 25,000 dollars. Plus my labour to install. All Canadian made panels and parts. With our power bill running at 200/month with 50% of that in administrative fees, transmission, and distribution fees it would take 25 years with no upkeep costs figured in unless you are able to sell excess power produced.

[fish_e_o]

If it pushes the price down there certainly would be no incentive for anyone to put in a solar farm - they can't operate at break even over their life expectancy at the prices we have now.

the price would be based on supply and demand so if there were so many people with solar panels that supply was huge and demand was nothing we wouldn't need huge solar farms.

i don't think that will happen though, the average person couldn't be bothered to do any work.

[JB_AOL]

the price would be based on supply and demand so if there were so many people with solar panels that supply was huge and demand was nothing we wouldn't need huge solar farms.

i don't think that will happen though, the average person couldn't be bothered to do any work.

I think you're gonna see integration into new builds though..

I've read about technology where the windows are the solar panels and the average person wouldn't know the difference (still can be used as windows), and the roof top of houses is basically a blank canvas. I know if there was an incentive, I would've done it at my house.

[Sledhead71]

why not? the average person should be able to get in on the power generation business. worst case scenario it pushes prices down due to higher supply and we'll need that soon enough

How exactly will landscape pay the price? For me and I think 99.9% of anyone considering this it will either be on my roof or close to my house (I live in country)

Unfortunately the "average" person is those I worry the most about, take a drive around and witness average both rural and city landscapes now. There is a reason we have bylaws and this initiative would need a heavy hand to keep things in check.

[fish_e_o]

Unfortunately the "average" person is those I worry the most about, take a drive around and witness average both rural and city landscapes now. There is a reason we have bylaws and this initiative would need a heavy hand to keep things in check.
what are you worried about?
I think you're gonna see integration into new builds though..

I've read about technology where the windows are the solar panels and the average person wouldn't know the difference (still can be used as windows), and the roof top of houses is basically a blank canvas. I know if there was an incentive, I would've done it at my house.

i hope so, but even with current decent technology (not the really cool stuff) most integration builds will rely on the grid for about half their power maybe less. it sure would take the strain off of our weak power grid.

[Okotokian]

So anyone can produce something, and another entity is FORCED to buy it??????

How on earth could a power company plan their output? It's not like you can put the extra electricity in the bank and pull it out later. The might be able to use the power from your wind turbine at 7 pm, but not 10 pm.

[hopper146]

What percentage of your power bill now is for actual power used?

Last month my power usage was about $60. With all the fees added on it was $225. Crooks!

[hopper146]

The price makes it feasible now. I have 1500 watts of power with grid tie. Have about $1700 invested.

[bergman]

The system I have planned will take care of 100% of my power needs even in winter and will run us about 25,000 dollars. Plus my labour to install. All Canadian made panels and parts. With our power bill running at 200/month with 50% of that in administrative fees, transmission, and distribution fees it would take 25 years with no upkeep costs figured in unless you are able to sell excess power produced.

There are guys around Calgary that have done it, I don't know if they make money on it or not, though.

If you build something to sell electricity to the grid, you have to follow the Alberta Micro-Generation Regulation. It can, and has, been done.

http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Regs/2008_027.pdf

[Grizzly Adams]

Decentralized power generation also reduces stresses on the distribution grid. The more spread out power generation is the better.

Only question is how rates are going to be set and does the central distributor have a say in what they pay. Doesn't make sense to buy power at a loss. They do have to buy privately produced power now, but at the same rate they sell it to you. Works by way of a two way meter. Reason we have a central power system is because it's the most efficient and reliable, something we don't want to mess with.

Grizz

[rugatika]

So anyone can produce something, and another entity is FORCED to buy it??????

How on earth could a power company plan their output? It's not like you can put the extra electricity in the bank and pull it out later. The might be able to use the power from your wind turbine at 7 pm, but not 10 pm.

Actually, that's an excellent point. Hadn't thought of that. Make the government buy it! I heard they have endless amounts of money.

[Pekan]

I lived in Ontario when they got on the solar bandwagon. I also worked as a subcontractor on a 12 Megawatt pv farm.
in Ontario pv farms were getting paid 7x more per Kw/h compared to gas or hydro producers. The govt explained it away in terms of carbon offsets or something I didnt quite understand. But what I did understand was the dollars it put in my jeans! And that is exactly what is needed here now.
the provincial government has a chance to kickstart an industry at a time when we need something like this.
Personally, I sell industrial electrical products. I am hurting due to the price of oil. I know that the ndp could give my industry a boost if they did what ontario did 10 years ago.
And we live in the sunniest province. Its just a matter of time until pv installations are common, so why not be leaders?

[hal53]

I lived in Ontario when they got on the solar bandwagon. I also worked as a subcontractor on a 12 Megawatt pv farm.
in Ontario pv farms were getting paid 7x more per Kw/h compared to gas or hydro producers. The govt explained it away in terms of carbon offsets or something I didnt quite understand. But what I did understand was the dollars it put in my jeans! And that is exactly what is needed here now.
the provincial government has a chance to kickstart an industry at a time when we need something like this.
Personally, I sell industrial electrical products. I am hurting due to the price of oil. I know that the ndp could give my industry a boost if they did what ontario did 10 years ago.
And we live in the sunniest province. Its just a matter of time until pv installations are common, so why not be leaders?
If it's such a good deal why does the Govt. (us) have to subsidize you to do it?

[deerguy]

If it's such a good deal why does the Govt. (us) have to subsidize you to do it?

Because most people don't have 20k + to install a system or when they see the price they take the uneducated approach of "well gee darn golly mah gat dang systum rights here dun be good enuf fur befur so it shud be done gud fee now and behond tew" that's why. Subsidized solar system for homes is a good idea and I can't wait to put power back into the grid and have a negative power bill.

[hal53]

Because most people don't have 20k + to install a system or when they see the price they take the uneducated approach of "well gee darn golly mah gat dang systum rights here dun be good enuf fur befur so it shud be done gud fee now and behond tew" that's why. Subsidized solar system for homes is a good idea and I can't wait to put power back into the grid and have a negative power bill.
So out of the 20k, how much should we give you ?

[deerguy]

So out of the 20k, how much should we give you ?

What's this we? With more power on the grid your bill goes down, or do you feel you should have the option to opt out of your tax dollars going to subsidize solar and in turn opt out of any benefits solar adds to the grid? Having a large portion of residential and community stores "gas stations/grocers" etc on solar with a automatic transfer switch at each location could actually come in quite handy during a prolonged power outage or natural disaster.

Edit : not only that but it would aid development in North Western Alberta as currently the grid can not handle future developments, currently Oilsites in that area are ran of propane. By having solar feeding the grid in that zone development could occur and you'd actually be growing the economy.

[hal53]

What's this we? With more power on the grid your bill goes down, or do you feel you should have the option to opt out of your tax dollars going to subsidize solar and in turn opt out of any benefits solar adds to the grid? Having a large portion of residential and community stores "gas stations/grocers" etc on solar with a automatic transfer switch at each location could actually come in quite handy during a prolonged power outage or natural disaster.
you forgot to answer a simple question I asked...

[deerguy]

you forgot to answer a simple question I asked...

I asked who "we" was.

[hal53]

I asked who "we" was.
the taxpayer who is giving you cash for your project...

[WCTHEMI]

I lived in Ontario when they got on the solar bandwagon. I also worked as a subcontractor on a 12 Megawatt pv farm.
in Ontario pv farms were getting paid 7x more per Kw/h compared to gas or hydro producers. The govt explained it away in terms of carbon offsets or something I didnt quite understand. But what I did understand was the dollars it put in my jeans! And that is exactly what is needed here now.
the provincial government has a chance to kickstart an industry at a time when we need something like this.
Personally, I sell industrial electrical products. I am hurting due to the price of oil. I know that the ndp could give my industry a boost if they did what ontario did 10 years ago.
And we live in the sunniest province. Its just a matter of time until pv installations are common, so why not be leaders?

This subsidy is the reason that people in Ontario pay such ridiculous power bills. Our bills here are high enough.
Even if your home produced enough power for your own use, you will still have to pay the service charges on the bill, those won't ever go away as long as you have a meter hooked up to the grid.

[deerguy]

the taxpayer who is giving you cash for your project...

Well I am a taxpayer, and a good one at that. So I would be paying myself? Now, to answer the question honestly I believe the most is 20% of a subsidy.

[rbouchard]

There are guys around Calgary that have done it, I don't know if they make money on it or not, though.

If you build something to sell electricity to the grid, you have to follow the Alberta Micro-Generation Regulation. It can, and has, been done.

http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Regs/2008_027.pdf

With the way the legislation is now they are not making any money. The electric company only has to give a credit equal to what you would have used tied to the grid. Any excess power they get for free.

[rbouchard]

This subsidy is the reason that people in Ontario pay such ridiculous power bills. Our bills here are high enough.
Even if your home produced enough power for your own use, you will still have to pay the service charges on the bill, those won't ever go away as long as you have a meter hooked up to the grid.

With the new legislation any excess power produced would put $ into your jeans thus offsetting the service fees

[Klondike]

The power coming off the grid is a pure 60hz sine wave cycle. The solar/battery/inverter power produced by the home systems is not a pure sine wave all be it close. Anyone know how they are going to deal with the discrepancy if all these small producers are going to feed into the grid?

[woody1948]

Well let's hope Alberta does not do what Ontario done. The 80 cents / kWh that is paid for what you generate, and the 10 cents per kWh that you are being charged for what you use, does allow one to invest in the change over. But this subsidy is picked up by the people who just pay their bill every month. The green producers in Ontario are making electricity unaffordable for a lot of poor and middle income folks. If the NDP runs Alberta like the Liberals run Ontario, the green policy will have us as broke as they are in a few years.

[WCTHEMI]

The power coming off the grid is a pure 60hz sine wave cycle. The solar/battery/inverter power produced by the home systems is not a pure sine wave all be it close. Anyone know how they are going to deal with the discrepancy if all these small producers are going to feed into the grid?

I would imagine similar equipment that power plants use would have to be employeed by homeowners, can't recall the exact number now, but it used to plus or minus .5 HZ would cause the tie breaker to open from the grid.

[deerguy]

With the way the legislation is now they are not making any money. The electric company only has to give a credit equal to what you would have used tied to the grid. Any excess power they get for free.

No, they pay you for any excess power you put into the grid.

[FCLightning]

No, they pay you for any excess power you put into the grid.

This is correct, but you are not allowed to install a system larger than your anticipated need for power, ensuring that any excess to the grid would be a very minimal amount. The new legislation would move that cap on capacity so that if you had the money and space you could install much greater capacity than you currently use, sending larger volumes to the grid for purchase.

[Okotokian]

I lived in Ontario when they got on the solar bandwagon. I also worked as a subcontractor on a 12 Megawatt pv farm.
in Ontario pv farms were getting paid 7x more per Kw/h compared to gas or hydro producers. The govt explained it away in terms of carbon offsets or something I didnt quite understand. But what I did understand was the dollars it put in my jeans! And that is exactly what is needed here now.
the provincial government has a chance to kickstart an industry at a time when we need something like this.
Personally, I sell industrial electrical products. I am hurting due to the price of oil. I know that the ndp could give my industry a boost if they did what ontario did 10 years ago.
And we live in the sunniest province. Its just a matter of time until pv installations are common, so why not be leaders?

You are suggesting we follow ONTARIO'S lead in power generation??? OMG Have you seen their rates and the lawsuits????? You might as well advocate we follow North Korea's economic plans. Ontario is a disaster BECAUSE of crazy ideas like this.

[OldNewGuy]

From Ontario, where this has been going on for a number of years now. It is called the "Feed-In Tariff". It was thought up and implemented when Ontario still used a lot of coal-burning generation, with a lot of smog days as the result during the high-use summer period. All coal-burning plants have now been shut down.

The idea was that individuals could install solar and/or wind generation (incentives were available and pretty much 100% taken advantage of) and any generated power "excess to their needs" was fed back into the system at a rate which was a multiple of that paid to the Nuke generators, etc.

The major issue with that became, the "excess to be fed back" portion wasn't set out in the rules, so all of the homeowners/farmers/individual generators ended up feeding 100% back to the system at huge rate incomes, then buying their normal use power at the regular (much lower) consumption rates. It has caused major consumer price increases here because of this Liberal government of Ontario programme.

My take - if the Alberta government stipulates it is only the "excess" that gets fed back, it'll work. Otherwise, it's not practical for any government to put such a programme in place.

O.N.G.

"Wishing I were somewhere else but here (Ontario)"

[Pekan]

You are suggesting we follow ONTARIO'S lead in power generation??? OMG Have you seen their rates and the lawsuits????? You might as well advocate we follow North Korea's economic plans. Ontario is a disaster BECAUSE of crazy ideas like this.

Hey, the fact of the matter is that Alberta's hydrocarbon industries, of which most of us suckle on the teet of, will not provide the growth that this province needs over the short term. This kind of government stimulus is exactly whats needed.now to keep skilled people in this awesome part of the country.
Another example:
Lighting controls. Ie occupancy sensors, daylight harvesting sensors, programmable lighting systems for buildings. When i worked for a manufacturer who sold these and other electrical products, the national sales by products were like b.c. $1.2 million/ year, Alberta $5000/ year, Ontario $6 million/ year. Why? Govt incentives.
I get the whole dont be like Ontario thing, believe me, ive lived there. So pick virtually any U.S state with a strong economy as an example for renewables and power saving rebates. Alberta can look to many places for examples.

A little more economic diversity wouldnt be such a bad thing......how about solar powered marijuana grow ops? Green green to make some green!

[Okotokian]

Hey, the fact of the matter is that Alberta's hydrocarbon industries, of which most of us suckle on the teet of, will not provide the growth that this province needs over the short term. This kind of government stimulus is exactly whats needed.now to keep skilled people in this awesome part of the country.
Another example:
Lighting controls. Ie occupancy sensors, daylight harvesting sensors, programmable lighting systems for buildings. When i worked for a manufacturer who sold these and other electrical products, the national sales by products were like b.c. $1.2 million/ year, Alberta $5000/ year, Ontario $6 million/ year. Why? Govt incentives.
I get the whole dont be like Ontario thing, believe me, ive lived there. So pick virtually any U.S state with a strong economy as an example for renewables and power saving rebates. Alberta can look to many places for examples.

A little more economic diversity wouldnt be such a bad thing......how about solar powered marijuana grow ops? Green green to make some green!

Lost me. How does you selling the excess power from the solar panels on your roof to, say, TransAlta, at inflated rates that all consumers have to pay stimulate our economy?

[Pekan]

Lost me. How does you selling the excess power from the solar panels on your roof to, say, TransAlta, at inflated rates that all consumers have to pay stimulate our economy?

The same way most people I know in Alberta would rather pay $1.00/litre for gas and have a stable good paying job due to higher oil prices.

im not saying ive got all the answers, but I do know that solar is great for the electrical industry. And thats how I make my living.
Governments are gonna **** away money no matter what. Why not somehow get an industry going in the process?

Pekan out!

[fish_e_o]

How does you selling the excess power from the solar panels on your roof to, say, TransAlta, at inflated rates that all consumers have to pay stimulate our economy?

the rate shouldn't be inflated it should be market rate like any other producer would get

[Kim473]

I wonder if the city would give me a permit to install a 40ft dia windmill in my back yard?

[Okotokian]

the rate shouldn't be inflated it should be market rate like any other producer would get

Still, how does that stimulate the economy if TransAlta is forced to buy your 20 kilowatts you generate at 11 p.m. when they didn't know you were going to and that they don't need? No utility buys power like that.

Now if you would sign a contract with them describing how much power you would deliver and when, along with PENALTIES you would pay if you did not deliver it and they had to turn to more expensive sources....

[fish_e_o]

Still, how does that stimulate the economy if TransAlta is forced to buy your 20 kilowatts you generate at 11 p.m. when they didn't know you were going to and that they don't need? No utility buys power like that.

Now if you would sign a contract with them describing how much power you would deliver and when, along with PENALTIES you would pay if you did not deliver it and they had to turn to more expensive sources....

i'm sure it's on the sliding scale of supply and demand. generating power during peak times is probably worth a lot more. generating power during off peak when it's not needed might net you nothing at all

as to a stimulation in the economy as long as people buy Canadian there shouldn't be an issue

[deerguy]

Still, how does that stimulate the economy if TransAlta is forced to buy your 20 kilowatts you generate at 11 p.m. when they didn't know you were going to and that they don't need? No utility buys power like that.

Now if you would sign a contract with them describing how much power you would deliver and when, along with PENALTIES you would pay if you did not deliver it and they had to turn to more expensive sources....

You seem opposed to the idea, makes no sense. Power companies are making record profits all while gauging us with bs service fees. I can't wait for this to take off. The grid is all connected, they'll find a place to dump the power with no problems.

[deerguy]

This is correct, but you are not allowed to install a system larger than your anticipated need for power, ensuring that any excess to the grid would be a very minimal amount. The new legislation would move that cap on capacity so that if you had the money and space you could install much greater capacity than you currently use, sending larger volumes to the grid for purchase.

Who told you this? I did a solar class and I am sure that was not the jist of what was said. The instructor I believe made $500+ a year off his system by way of 12 months with a negative power bill.

[FCLightning]

Who told you this? I did a solar class and I am sure that was not the jist of what was said. The instructor I believe made $500+ a year off his system by way of 12 months with a negative power bill.

I got it from reading the regulations.

Micro-generation generating unit” means a generating
unit of a customer that
(i) exclusively uses sources of renewable or alternative
energy,
(ii) is intended to meet all or a portion of the customer’s
electricity needs,
(iii) is, at the time of construction or installation of the
generating unit, sized to the customer’s load or
anticipated load or a portion of it, as evidenced by a
total nominal capacity of the generating unit that
does not exceed the rating of the customer’s service

[deerguy]

I got it from reading the regulations.

Ah, anticipated load. Yeah there is ways to manipulate that. Hopefully they change the rules so you can generate 2-3x as much power as you need.

[Brian Bildson]

I've heavily researched solar for over three years from a commercial perspective. Where the big pay back comes is in commercial users. The problem with generating power during the day in a residence is no one is usually home to draw on it and by evening time the sun staring to wane. Without cheap power storage like the recently announced, but yet proven, Tesla battery, that power needs to be fed back into the grid during the day. But a commercial user pulls the power during the day when needed.

And buddy in Demitt you will never never generate enough solar power in winter to run your home. Subsidize a bit yes but you won't be off the grid.

[super7mag]

I know a guy that had a pretty decent , although by today's standard old, system.
He had an outdoor coal boiler with a complete hopper bin and automated set up for heat and domestic hot water.
Then he had the complete south facing roof of his 40x60 shop covered in solar panels, he had 2 ( about the size of a sheet of ply wood 4x8) solar panels mounted on poles and had those old satellite dish actuators on them . And had them hooked on a timer of sorts to follow the sun. He had 3 of the smaller wind turbine/generator s maybe a tad smaller then a Cessna 180 prop there abouts to give an idea of size.
He had a 20'x10 lean too off his shop absolutley covered in battery's , I couldn't tell if they were hooked in series or parallel up wards of 40-50 of them if I had to guess . Not car battery's or even the normal deep cycle like you would use in a boat . They physically appeared different ( I never got into the details with him).
Then the brains of the system a pretty high tech ( again 5-7 years ago) computer, it controlled the whole deal, showed how many watts were being produced , how many he was using and what was going back into the grid.
He was over 50 GS invested in the solar wind batteries alone, he had no power bill from may to September , and payed something the rest of the year. Since he was still on grid he payed the line/ service charges all year.
I'm no math wizard but 50 G's amortized over how long plus maitnence and replacement along the way. To me it didn't pencil out. That ol guy passed away and I think his wife sold all the solar system stuff a few years back.
She kept the only reliable piece of equipment that made economical sense to run the out door boiler. A 600$ tandem load of coal lasts two years . No doubt there is up keep to it aswell .