New Alberta regulation - Bad science and Bad presidence !

[McLeod]

Recovery Rest Period
Ø Due to a conservation concern for a high risk population of Arctic
grayling in the upper Pembina watershed, a recovery rest period is being
implemented for a period of 5 years. During this time, no fishing will be
permitted in the Pembina River and tributaries upstream of Lodgepole.


Seriously fewer grayling because of overfishing ? No
Habitat destruction ? Yes

The only thing five years will do is allow Brook Trout to take over amore of the Pembina as have in the Lovett a tributary of the Pembina.

But what's next ? Close all Bull Trout , Cutty, Grayling and native Rainbow streams ?

Brutal !

[RavYak]

Down south a lot of the pike and walleye retention lakes have been put at zero or reduced limits as well so people in PP1 need to review regs closely.

Pike reduced to 0 retention in 3 northern lakes as well including Pigeon.

[FreshAirGetter]

Yeah I noticed the Pembina regs change. It's one thing to have things "catch and release", and another to close fishing to those bodies of water altogether. Too bad it's gotten to that point! I personally only catch and release, so sucks I can't even fish there now. Just as well, I tried it once last year and got skunked...lol.

[Brandonkop]

Down south a lot of the pike and walleye retention lakes have been put at zero or reduced limits as well so people in PP1 need to review regs closely.

Pike reduced to 0 retention in 3 northern lakes as well including Pigeon.


The solution to all these problems is not reducing the retention of pike. I mean to keep a pike at Pigeon they had to be over 100cm anyways so really how many were leaving the lake? The walleye are the problem.

[Brandonkop]

From the Minister:

As many of you have heard, in the fall of 2015, we stocked tiger trout into a small number of ponds in Alberta to evaluate their success in creating more diverse fishing opportunities for stocked trout. At this time, we ask that all tiger trout be released so that this experimental stocking program can be properly evaluated.

I'm sure their numbers are already dwindling, too bad they didn't have a CNR law before stocking.



I wish they actually enforced this:

Buying and Selling Fish

The illegal trafficking of fish threatens our fish populations and is a serious offence. Report illegal activities (see Report-A-Poacher).

NOTE: Fish taken by sportfishing cannot be sold, bought, traded or bartered. Similarly, fish harvested under the authority of a Domestic, Indian Domestic or Métis Domestic Licence cannot be sold, bought, traded or bartered.
Go to esrd.alberta.ca/Fish-Wildlife/Fisheries-Management.

[RavYak]

The solution to all these problems is not reducing the retention of pike. I mean to keep a pike at Pigeon they had to be over 100cm anyways so really how many were leaving the lake? The walleye are the problem.

Yeah I know. Not sure when they will learn that closing lakes to retention is not the answer.

Guys down south are running out of options now and the couple lakes that are still open for retention will get hit hard this year and then probably be closed to retention next year...

Gotta leave them open and spread the pressure. Start stocking walleye like SK does if necessary.

Not every lake has to be a quality fishery, leave some for the masses to pillage while the other ones further away or with better capabilities keep producing.

[Brandonkop]

Yeah I know. Not sure when they will learn that closing lakes to retention is not the answer.

Guys down south are running out of options now and the couple lakes that are still open for retention will get hit hard this year and then probably be closed to retention next year...

Gotta leave them open and spread the pressure. Start stocking walleye like SK does if necessary.

Not every lake has to be a quality fishery, leave some for the masses to pillage while the other ones further away or with better capabilities keep producing.

Agree! RavYak for Minister of Fishing!!!

[slough shark]

As far as retention or release regs in southern Alberta I wish they would address the issue of the fact that c&r on most lakes for walleye in addition to keeping pike simply means that pike are being hit from both fishermen and walleye when the pike are young. You'll probably see in a number of lakes the pike fishery dropping off and the walleye numbers are VERY healthy. Going to C&R on pike will shift the balance back in favour of pike as they are the alpha predator and having more big pike around will lower walleye numbers. Silly really as this issue would be easily solved by having slot limit on pike and some walleye retention so there would be a balance of fish species. The other wild card is since they stopped the commercial fishery how will that impact the balance of the lake as they used to remove a lot of whitefish, how will this impact our lakes primarily in southern Alberta.

[mike780]

marie lake use to be a great walleye fishing hole now its 0 walleye and 0 pike for this year another northern lake gone!

[HowSwedeItIs]

Really makes you wonder what goes on in their noggins, marie lake getting shut down while LLB is teeming with great walleye that are on their way to a good stunting if we don't open it up, what's the end game

[RavYak]

Really makes you wonder what goes on in their noggins, marie lake getting shut down while LLB is teeming with great walleye that are on their way to a good stunting if we don't open it up, what's the end game

Probably 1000's of stunted walleye in every lake. They seem to like that for some reason...

[waterninja]

Where are you guys getting theese new regs from? are the new regs for 2016 online already? Can't believe that they are shutting down the Pembina for any fishing to save the Grayling. I have fished the Pembina many times and have never seen or even heard of a Grayling being caught. One of the few remaining places to catch a keeper Walleye.

[Soiler]

As usual just poor knee jerk reactions instead of addressing the real issues & using the science for real options.... What a joke! How are anglers responsible for the decline of the Grayling? And not the development along the watershed?

[surhuntsalot]

Seems like the biggest threat to Alberta's fish and wildlife are its Bioligists. Nothing appears to be worth anything funding wise unless it's collapsed or endangered, and management decisions almost seem like they are trying to keep it that way.

[Joe Quiroga]

CVR has gone 0 limit for pike.

So has Badger, getting to be slim pickings around Brooks.

(Not that I've kept anything yet)

[RavYak]

Where are you guys getting theese new regs from? are the new regs for 2016 online already? Can't believe that they are shutting down the Pembina for any fishing to save the Grayling. I have fished the Pembina many times and have never seen or even heard of a Grayling being caught. One of the few remaining places to catch a keeper Walleye.

They are online and linked to in stickied thread.

They are not closing down the entire Pembina. Only the section upstream of Lodgepole which is upstream of the walleye anyways. You can still fish for walleye in the same spots as previous years.

[waterninja]

OPPS.. I think I got Beaverlodge mixed up with Lodgepole. I was thinking a much larger part of the Pembina was being closed.
I still don't see how they can blame anglers for the decline of Grayling when logging, mining, energy and power companies are raping the countryside and destroying fish habitat. What a pile of BS.

EDIT.... I started reading the regs that were stickied and went to "important changes", but the cahanges are for 2015. Is that a typo, or am I on the wrong reg. page?? Thanks.

[Outdoorfanatic]

Talked to bio out of Red Deer. He told me that much of what is driving these changes is two things, first "hooking mortality". Meaning a percentage of all fish hooked even once, (believe he use a 5% figure) die after being released. So according to him 1 in 20 die due to hooking mortality after release. His concern particularly for Pigeon lake is that in late March through beginning of May the pike and walleye both are staging up in certain areas preparing for the spawn. Hence they're easy targets for anglers and so the 5% hooking mortality really kicks in even for strictly catch and release anglers. So answer is lake closure.

Issue two is according to him he is pressured by sportsman clubs to reduce fishing opportunities particularly for keeping a fish all in the name of conservation. So more limits more closure.

What I don't get is if hooking mortality is as big a deal as they claim then how do other jurisdictions have a fishery where you can catch a fish that has a numbered tag stuck through the dorsal fin and from that off your smart phone can check all the stats on that individual fish including the number of times it has been caught and released in its life. Some of those fish are being caught multiple times a year. Shouldn't they be dead within the year due to hooking mortality?

Anyway I think we can help ourselves by supporting both catch and release and those who like the opportunity to take something home. We're all anglers and we all want to catch fish for the rest of our life. If we demonize one another than the biologists will clearly err on the side of caution and increase all limits, especially when they can fall back on the hooking mortality thing. After all hooking mortality in a way makes catch and release guys look worse than those that catch go home and cook. The longer your on the lake catching and releasing the more die due too "hooking mortality".

[RavYak]

OPPS.. I think I got Beaverlodge mixed up with Lodgepole. I was thinking a much larger part of the Pembina was being closed.
I still don't see how they can blame anglers for the decline of Grayling when logging, mining, energy and power companies are raping the countryside and destroying fish habitat. What a pile of BS.

EDIT.... I started reading the regs that were stickied and went to "important changes", but the cahanges are for 2015. Is that a typo, or am I on the wrong reg. page?? Thanks.

I don't think they are blaming anglers. They are just removing the angling pressure as a way to hopefully help the situation...

Not sure where you are looking but download the 2016 regs.

http://www.albertaregulations.ca/2016-Alberta-Fishing-Regs.pdf

[waterninja]

Yep, it was a typo error. In the important changes section the title says it is for 2015, then in th first sentence talks about changes in 2016. I'm sur they will fix that, at least on the online page.

[fish99]

The solution to all these problems is not reducing the retention of pike. I mean to keep a pike at Pigeon they had to be over 100cm anyways so really how many were leaving the lake? The walleye are the problem.

not sure what they are saving the fish for, only to die and fertilizer the lake to help the blue green algae grow .

[anthony5]

Talked to bio out of Red Deer. He told me that much of what is driving these changes is two things, first "hooking mortality". Meaning a percentage of all fish hooked even once, (believe he use a 5% figure) die after being released. So according to him 1 in 20 die due to hooking mortality after release. His concern particularly for Pigeon lake is that in late March through beginning of May the pike and walleye both are staging up in certain areas preparing for the spawn. Hence they're easy targets for anglers and so the 5% hooking mortality really kicks in even for strictly catch and release anglers. So answer is lake closure.

Issue two is according to him he is pressured by sportsman clubs to reduce fishing opportunities particularly for keeping a fish all in the name of conservation. So more limits more closure.

What I don't get is if hooking mortality is as big a deal as they claim then how do other jurisdictions have a fishery where you can catch a fish that has a numbered tag stuck through the dorsal fin and from that off your smart phone can check all the stats on that individual fish including the number of times it has been caught and released in its life. Some of those fish are being caught multiple times a year. Shouldn't they be dead within the year due to hooking mortality?

Anyway I think we can help ourselves by supporting both catch and release and those who like the opportunity to take something home. We're all anglers and we all want to catch fish for the rest of our life. If we demonize one another than the biologists will clearly err on the side of caution and increase all limits, especially when they can fall back on the hooking mortality thing. After all hooking mortality in a way makes catch and release guys look worse than those that catch go home and cook. The longer your on the lake catching and releasing the more die due too "hooking mortality".

So basically what your saying is the catch and release guys can step down from their soap box or Apple crate or whatever?

[aulrich]

I think after a fish crosses a certain size, hooking mortality probably drops off significantly. From my personal experience it’s the smallish fish where you wonder is the fish will survive even half the time. I have noticed it with flies and small trout or pike that just engulf a lure especially those who’s eye are bigger than their mouths’.

I have never had a big pike get so damaged other than times you missed a flag ice fishing and the bait makes it all the way down.

[Elkaholic338]

It's often not the hook, the problems are:

Gut/Gill Hooking
Fish Handling
Time out of water
Fishing too deep for fish that can't handle being brought
to the surface from depths.
Non Rubber Nets
Poor support for larger fish
Barbed versus Barbless
Not seeing tipups trigger (get alarms)
Not bothering to check / revive.
Fighting too long
Being aware that certain species are more sensitive than others
(feel free to add to list)

Most of this can be mitigated / solved, mortality would be significantly lower if people learnt or were taught to do that. Unfortunately there's few resources available unless people take the time to educate themselves.

I've seen very experienced anglers handle fish poorly.

If the fish is being kept, who cares, but if there's a chance that it's going back
unless it's gut / gill hooked, small or big fish makes little difference to survival
and most fish will survive when handled correctly.

While I would agree that all of the above is true, I would suggest that it would actually help the fishing if fisherman were allowed to keep some of these poorly hooked fish. This would serve 2 purposes, one would be to reduce the waste of these poorly hooked fish that may not survive anyway, and another would be to reduce the time that these anglers spend on the water C&R, as the ones that are C&K may stop fishing once they have their "limit".
I realize that like anything, this could be abused by unscrupulous anglers, however if there were low limits on all lakes, and/or slot sizes that protect the spawning population, I think that the pressure would be spread out over all of the lakes, and not just focused on the ones that allow you to keep a fish, thereby collapsing that population as well.

With all that being said, as mainly a walleye fisherman, I am incredibly annoyed with the so called " management " techniques that are employed to try to save these fish. When the biologist method for determining the # of fish in the lake and the average size is to do a creel count survey on anglers returning from fishing, how can that be an accurate measure of the fish #'s. It is well known among those that target this species that not all presentations work well for them, and that they can be one of the most effected species based on current weather conditions, as well as simply one of the hardest fish to consistently catch. So, asking the guys that trolled a red and white spoon in the weeds all day for pike, how many walleye they caught that day could be a very different answer than asking the guys that pulled lindy rigs on structure all day. Using this flawed data set to determine that there are limited #'s of fish in the lake seems absurd, yet this is a component that goes into the decision making about these lakes.

I find it interesting that this is the 20th year since they began closing the majority of the lakes in Alberta for Walleye, and yet it seems that none of them have been able to stabilize their populations enough to open it up for the keeping of even one slot fish in many of the lakes, and the ones that have opened have gone to a tag system, making me wonder if it is just easier for them to manage the money, than to properly manage the resource.

It makes me sad to see so many former excellent quality fisheries reduced to stunted fish, no forage fish, and simply poor experiences.

it is often said that we have so many more anglers each year, that the lakes would immediately collapse if we let anyone eat a fish, however the stats for the license #s sold have remained largely unchanged over the last 30 years, and all of us that are over 30 should be asking ourselves if we are really seeing more anglers at the lakes in the province, or are the increased #s at the lakes often the Wake/Sea-Doo/Waterski crowd and not fishing at all. For myself, I have seen a significant decline in the # of young anglers that are on the lakes since I was young, it seems that most of the young people that I run into would rather play video games or tube/wake board than actually fish, and I applaud all those parents/Grandparents that take the time to teach fishing to their children, however it would be nice to see these young people have a chance to eat a fish once in a while as well.

Rant over, Flame suit on, and for what its worth, I have over 30 years experience chasing Walleye, and have invested thousands of dollars into equipment to find and catch them and still don't always get them.

:argue2:

[Outdoorfanatic]

Remember the fish that are staging up to spawn are the mature fish. So according to the bio I talked to the hooking mortality is a concern for him particularly with the staging up of mature walleye and pike. So he has closed some of our water due to the concern about catch and release fishing on targeted areas where these fish stage up preparing to spawn. So small fish, big fish it doesn't matter, hooking mortality plus pressure from conservation groups has closed down opportunity for all of us.

[Who Da Fisherman]

So has Badger, getting to be slim pickings around Brooks.

(Not that I've kept anything yet)

Really, was there 2 weeks ago and had 33 flags and landed 15, this was 2 of us in 6hrs. what are they thinking?
WDF

[cube]

With all that being said, as mainly a walleye fisherman, I am incredibly annoyed with the so called " management " techniques that are employed to try to save these fish. When the biologist method for determining the # of fish in the lake and the average size is to do a creel count survey on anglers returning from fishing, how can that be an accurate measure of the fish #'s. It is well known among those that target this species that not all presentations work well for them, and that they can be one of the most effected species based on current weather conditions, as well as simply one of the hardest fish to consistently catch. So, asking the guys that trolled a red and white spoon in the weeds all day for pike, how many walleye they caught that day could be a very different answer than asking the guys that pulled lindy rigs on structure all day. Using this flawed data set to determine that there are limited #'s of fish in the lake seems absurd, yet this is a component that goes into the decision making about these lakes.



I guess you have not read the reports generated from the creel studies. They have a correction factor built into them. As I'm sure you know anglers have been known from time to time to embellish and not be completely truthful as well. This correction factor corrects for both the fabrication as well as for the guys trolling spoons etc , as you mentioned above. While the correction factor may not be totally accurate it is probably pretty close.

The correction factor is derived using test fishing, by known anglers with known experience levels.

Again while not perfect it does a reasonable job at controlling for the variables that you were concerned about.

[cube]

Couldn't agree more, the problem is policing it.

I agree with you, there is mismanagement. From 3 over to 63cm to 0 pike at CVR for example, that's mismanagement. However there are plenty of pike in CVR and it's frankly overrun with walleye.

Many of the locals fish on private land further up the lake from 5th wheels day in day out and are armed with binoculars to spot anybody coming their way.

I believe the reason for this is because of staffing. Much poaching goes on at these locations and they don't have enough F&W to police it. Much easier for them to make it a 0 limit.

X2

[cube]

I find it interesting that this is the 20th year since they began closing the majority of the lakes in Alberta for Walleye, and yet it seems that none of them have been able to stabilize their populations enough to open it up for the keeping of even one slot fish in many of the lakes, and the ones that have opened have gone to a tag system, making me wonder if it is just easier for them to manage the money, than to properly manage the resource.

I am sure the Gov't looses money on the tags. The reason they do it to the level they are now is it is like crack to a biologist. It is so easy. With out having to do any work you have a pretty good idea of how many walleye are being taken out of the system while sitting in your chair in front of your computer dealing with the politics.

It makes me sad to see so many former excellent quality fisheries reduced to stunted fish, no forage fish, and simply poor experiences.
Totally agree with you here. You would have thought in 20 yrs they would have come to the realization that the original assumptions they made for setting the levels needed to be modified. It is beyond my understanding why they still cling to those old levels is such an unscientific way. In science you start with your assumption and when the data comes in you modify it to more closely relate it to reality. But they never do this in the great walleye experiment.

it is often said that we have so many more anglers each year, that the lakes would immediately collapse if we let anyone eat a fish, however the stats for the license #s sold have remained largely unchanged over the last 30 years, and all of us that are over 30 should be asking ourselves if we are really seeing more anglers at the lakes in the province, or are the increased #s at the lakes often the Wake/Sea-Doo/Waterski crowd and not fishing at all. For myself, I have seen a significant decline in the # of young anglers that are on the lakes since I was young, it seems that most of the young people that I run into would rather play video games or tube/wake board than actually fish, and I applaud all those parents/Grandparents that take the time to teach fishing to their children, however it would be nice to see these young people have a chance to eat a fish once in a while as well.

Rant over, Flame suit on, and for what its worth, I have over 30 years experience chasing Walleye, and have invested thousands of dollars into equipment to find and catch them and still don't always get them.

While the numbers of licences have not changed The number of fishermen targeting walleye certainly have gone up. I for instance never targeted walleye before, preferring to target pike and perch. But as the walleye experiment has collapsed allot of those fisheries I find that I now must target walleye. I also think, as you have alluded to above that the average sophistication of walleye anglers has gone up. We know have sophisticated sonars, gps, mapping, side scan, better boats, etc etc. In days past the average fisherman also spent less days on the water than they do now. So even thought the licence levels have not changed much the pressure and the ability for the fish to hide have changed in the last 30 yrs.


In the end I agree with you. It is pretty apparent that the levels they are using for sustainable, endangered, trophy etc. need to be modified to stop the stunting, starving of walleye and the collapsing of other species. It should also be apparent by now that we have a large number of lakes that have recovered and therefore could have some limited harvesting happening. Yes 15 yrs ago when there was only one recovered lake in an area it needed to be protected and tags were a good answer but this is not the case now. Even if it meant you got some number of tags (say 5 for instance) when you purchased your licence, to use at any lake, would be a great start.

Have a great season

[CMichaud]

The underlying problem is predator control.

Treat the cause not the symptoms.

Population Alberta 2005: 2.5 million

Population Alberta 2011: 3.6 million

Population Alberta 2015: 4.2 million

[EZM]

Unfortunately the recent (last 8-10 years) of management strategies will result in lakes overrun and overpopulated with walleye at the cost the entire watershed.

I am not sure how many more examples of this disaster are required before that strategy changes.

As far as grayling are concerned - the root cause is development (habitat), contamination and water use from industry (primarily oil/gas). The closures are the only response let to attempt to mitigate the damage already done.

[cube]

The underlying problem is predator control.

Treat the cause not the symptoms.

Population Alberta 2005: 2.5 million

Population Alberta 2011: 3.6 million

Population Alberta 2015: 4.2 million

As you can see below Alberta's population has grown considerably but the "Predators" have not.

http://www.mywildalberta.com/BuyLicences/AnnualSalesStatistics.aspx

Alberta Fishing Licence sales
2014 280,425
2013 266,598
2012 269,462
2011 253,336
2010 247,674
2009 265,486

[TROLLER]

As you can see below Alberta's population has grown considerably but the "Predators" have not.

http://www.mywildalberta.com/BuyLicences/AnnualSalesStatistics.aspx

Alberta Fishing Licence sales
2014 280,425
2013 266,598
2012 269,462
2011 253,336
2010 247,674
2009 265,486

Problem with those numbers is they don't take into account the old codgers like myself that do not need to buy a license anymore. Case in point, go out to Blood Indian any week and see who is fishing and keeping all their catch. Very glad to see they changed the limit on trout at Blood to 3 from 5.

[huntsfurfish]

Problem with those numbers is they don't take into account the old codgers like myself that do not need to buy a license anymore. Case in point, go out to Blood Indian any week and see who is fishing and keeping all their catch. Very glad to see they changed the limit on trout at Blood to 3 from 5.

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And in some areas additional 4 rods out for the kids and filling the bag with fish.

[CMichaud]

As you can see below Alberta's population has grown considerably but the "Predators" have not.

http://www.mywildalberta.com/BuyLicences/AnnualSalesStatistics.aspx

Alberta Fishing Licence sales
2014 280,425
2013 266,598
2012 269,462
2011 253,336
2010 247,674
2009 265,486

More humans = more poaching (fishing without a licence) sadly.

The stats above seem to indicate an additional 15,000 licenses over the period given as well.

[FlyTheory]

More humans = more poaching (fishing without a licence) sadly.

The stats above seem to indicate an additional 15,000 licenses over the period given as well.

Yessir. It sucks.