Testing handloads

[RolHammer]

OK, got my first handloads all done & ready to roll. This entire process so far has been very cool & I've enjoyed every step along the way. Now the really fun part - getting to shoot them! :)

I've read several approaches on how to proceed at this point, but I'm interested in hearing about how you do it. What's your process once you've got your test rounds made up & you're ready for the range?

[elkhunter11]

With my big game rifles, I use three shot groups, and with my varmint/target guns, I use five shot groups. I fire one shot after the other, with no waiting for the barrel to cool between shots. Once a group is complete, them I let the barrel cool pretty much to the ambient temperature, before proceeding with another group.

[RolHammer]

How do you feel about the round robin approach?

Also, just curious if you've found leaving the bolt open shortens cooling times.

[elkhunter11]

How do you feel about the round robin approach?

Also, just curious if you've found whether leaving the bolt open leads to shorter cooling times.

If I am not firing the rifle the bolt is always open, if for nothing else, so everyone knows that the firearm is safe. It's actually a rule at most ranges. I have no idea what you mean by a round robin approach.

[RolHammer]

If I am not firing the rifle the bolt is always open, if for nothing else, so everyone knows that the firearm is safe. It's actually a rule at most ranges. I have no idea what you mean by a round robin approach.OK, dumb question. I was just wondering out loud about factors affecting cooling.

A round robin is firing one shot from each load group at its target vs firing an entire load group in succession.

[Smokinyotes]

When I'm developing loads I usually have the chrony set up and clean the barrel really well after each 3 shot group. I also use a micrometer to Check for case head expansion before and after on each shot. Once I see .0005 case head expansion I usually back off 1 grain and use that as my maximum load.

[260 Rem]

At a minimum, I shoot single five shot groups with each charge weight ... low to high ....and select the best group. More often now days, I shoot double five shot groups. Obviously, better information can be gleaned from a larger sample. If I am getting vertical in both five shot groups, I can eliminate that charge weight as a potential candidate. After choosing the best charge weight performance, I load groups on either side to see if a bit less or more makes a difference. After establishing the optimum charge weight, I start tinkering with seating depth. I generally shoot strings of five without cooling. I do not do round robin targeting.

[J0HN_R1]

I can't see a "Round Robin" method being overly conducive to testing for uniformity & repeatability...

Shooting each charge-weight in succession allows for easier determination of over-pressure, in my limited experience.

:)

[Dick284]

Start low and work up. Shoot your loads in that order. How else are you going to determine where you run into un safe pressures..? Your looking for repeatability, both in case condition, and performance.
3 shots or 5 that's your choice. Shoot each group giving due respect to barrel heating, there's no sense in cooking the rifles throat the first day out. 15-30 seconds between each shot is plenty for 3 shot groups, shots 4 and 5 on a 5 shot string usually get a bit more time off. Let the rifle cool completely between groups.

[elkhunter11]

OK, dumb question. I was just wondering out loud about factors affecting cooling.

A round robin is firing one shot from each load group at its target vs firing an entire load group in succession.

I shoot an entire group,in increasing powder charge weights. If I see any pressure signs , I don't move up to the next charge weight . I see absolutely no merit to this round robin idea.

[Dick284]

OK, dumb question. I was just wondering out loud about factors affecting cooling.

A round robin is firing one shot from each load group at its target vs firing an entire load group in succession.



You need more range time and less book time.

All you're getting from surfing the web, and pondering the depth of the universe, is more and more confused.

Catnthehat's dad put it rather succinctly "shut up and shoot!"

Let us hear your range report though, then the edjimication will begin.

[elkhunter11]

You need more range time and less book time.

All you're getting from surfing the web, and pondering the depth of the universe, is more and more confused.

Catnthehat's dad put it rather succinctly "shut up and shoot!"

Let us hear your range report though, then the edjimication will begin.

Exactly! the result of too much reading, and not enough hands on experience. People are reading too much, and making things far more complicated than it needs to be, get out and shoot.:)

[catnthehat]

I star with s mid range load with the powder I have chosen and change the overall cartridge length as I test .
My cartridges are loaded long and shortened at the range with my seating die.

I soot five **** groups at each length until I get the most accurate group size without pressure signs.
With the most accurate length found I then increase the powder charge until I get the usual pressure signs or the velocity starts to get too varied .
This is with my match rifles .

With my big game rifles I bssically do almost the same thing but stop short if the accurate loads are touching the lands or jamming the lands .
I then increase the powder charge until I get the velocity that several manuals say it should be or I get pressure signs .

At the end of the day however , if I am not finished testing on s hunting rifle and I am shooting something akin to s 1 1/2" group on my hunting rifle I am still going huntin with confidence .

Cat

[bobinthesky]

I don't have a lot to add about shooting your groups but I will comment on your question about barrel cooling.
I normally take more than one firearm to the range to shoot so that I don't rush the cooling, shooting a .22 rimfire rifle while the big one cools also helps to postpone the flinching.
Your bolt should always be open except when your shooting but I've found that it helps immensely to cool the barrel if you can point the muzzle of the rifle into the wind to allow cooling air to flow down the tube. This can not be done at every range every time and be sure to follow the range rules or risk getting thrown out! I often shoot in large fields where I can do most anything I want to but the people shooting next to you at the range won't appreciate your rifle pointing at them if the wind happens to be blowing from that direction!

[sns2]

I start low to high in terms of charge. I load 4 rounds per charge weight, even though I am only shooting three shot groups on a hunting rifle. Then I know if I mess up a shot, I have a back up to fire to see the accuracy in that charge in spite of me messing up a shot. Could be be my poor shooting or it could be the next fella with his stupid braked gun who sits down next to me when there are 8 other open benches, and makes me jump out of my shorts just as I am squeezing the trigger. Either way I am covered. Finally, if I have two loads that are close, I can fire the fourth shot to see which is really the best charge. After that comes seating depth experimentation.

[Pathfinder76]

Are you developing loads for a hunting rifle or a target rifle?

[angery jonn]

Chuck, I'm fairly new to reloading and just curious... What would be the differince?

[J0HN_R1]

Chuck, I'm fairly new to reloading and just curious... What would be the differince?

A hunting load should only require 3 shots to determine "good enough", while target loads usually warrant a more thorough 5 or 10-shot grouping to determine repeatability & accuracy.

;)

[elkhunter11]

A hunting load should only require 3 shots to determine "good enough", while target loads usually warrant a more thorough 5 or 10-shot grouping to determine repeatability & accuracy.

;)

And that should be based on several groups, some people see one great group, load a large volume of ammunition, and then can't come close to duplicating the test group. With only one three shot group, it could very well be a fluke.

[angery jonn]

Fair enough guys, thanks

[hogie]

I pick my starting load work up from there in .5gr increments. I do 7 shot groups . I judge groups by the best 5 shots in group and how they group. Watch for pressure signs as I go up in charge weight.

Once I decide on what load to use I load another 20 rounds and do 5 shots groups to see if consistent. Use chronograph as well.

I shoot a lot of iron sight military rifles so 7 shots can give me a better idea. Some of those sights are not exactly precise and neither am I at times lol.

[catnthehat]

OK, dumb question. I was just wondering out loud about factors affecting cooling.

A round robin is firing one shot from each load group at its target vs firing an entire load group in succession.
I have done similar things for experimentation, but never when seriously working up load.
Cat

[partsman]

The first thing for me is before even shooting set up properly and comfortably in a good shooting position, put up as many targets as possible to save too much running back and forth.
Keep a record as you shoot.

[elkhunter11]

The first thing for me is before even shooting set up properly and comfortably in a good shooting position, put up as many targets as possible to save too much running back and forth.
Keep a record as you shoot.

I use 5-1/2" x 5-1/2" air rifle targets that take up little room, and I put up enough to do all of my load testing. I use my spotting scope to check the results after each group.

[Pathfinder76]

Chuck, I'm fairly new to reloading and just curious... What would be the differince?

The approach. Bullet selection, feeding, OAL, accuracy, hand wringing, etc.

[RolHammer]

You need more range time and less book time.

All you're getting from surfing the web, and pondering the depth of the universe, is more and more confused.

Exactly! the result of too much reading, and not enough hands on experience. People are reading too much, and making things far more complicated than it needs to be, get out and shoot.:):lol: Boys, boys, boys, relaaax. I simply started a thread just like it says in the OP - "I'm interested in hearing about how you do it. What's your process once you've got your test rounds made up & you're ready for the range?"

I'm getting the idea that there's probably as broad a road on this one as anything else and simply wanted to get some sense of that. Plus, just like the 'show me your reloading bench threads' here or 'show me your shop' threads in the WWing world, or 'show me your favourite brick workout' in the triathlon world, everybody likes to share the way they do stuff. Just promoting discussion. Elk shared some stuff about his approach. I asked a couple of questions to continue opening the discussion, albeit in a bumbly sort of way.

I get out the range literally every chance I get. Meanwhile, pondering the workings of the universe and asking millions of questions about everything is just how some minds work. May have to simply get used to that. :)

[RolHammer]

I can't see a "Round Robin" method being overly conducive to testing for uniformity & repeatability...

II see absolutely no merit to this round robin idea.I'm honestly not making this stuff up. Here's other's writers' thoughts on it, from what I take to be respected sources as they're linked and cited in multiple places all over. Reading through these opinions on the subject, the idea seems to have merit.

"I have added a few twists to existing ladder-type tests that help establish the accuracy window rapidly with no ambiguity of test results. The first and most important modification is round-robin firing of the test rounds. That means one shot is fired from each test group before the second shot of any "group" is fired. Round-robin firing serves to balance out wind, light, and other atmospheric conditions by "spreading out" the conditions throughout the whole ladder-group. Basically, it creates no bias towards any one load because you won't have one load fired in one condition and another fired in different conditions."
-Jason Baney on 6mmBR.com
http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html

"An indisputable fact about firing long strings of shots during load development is that things that shouldn't change will change. Your barrel will warm and foul. The wind conditions will change. The lighting conditions will change. Your heart rate and other bodily functions will change, affecting your trigger prowess. These are unavoidable variables that can and will skew your load development results--no matter how hard you try to compensate for them.

In the conventional Audette or "ladder" test, you fire a string of twenty or so shots at a target 300 yards away. The idea is to look for a cluster of shots on that target which will represent the best charge weight of powder to use. However, during this string of fire the above mentioned variables--either individually or in concert--will certainly skew your results to one degree or another. You might pull a shot or two during the string. Having only one representative shot of each charge being looked at is not the best approach in my opinion.

But consider the round robin firing sequence. By firing "round robin" I simply mean that you dedicate one target to each charge weight being tested, and you shoot once at target number 1 with the first graduation, and then once at target 2 with the second graduation, etc., until you've been through all targets three times each, leaving a three shot group on each target. This method spreads the error factor across all groups equally--and you get three shots of each charge weight--rather than the Audette ladder test's one shot. So, if the barrel fouls and becomes inaccurate after 8 or 10 shots, the flyers will be evident in all groups tested. This will yield more meaningful data, and is statistically superior to the conventional Audette method."
-Dan Newbury's Optimal Charge Weight approach on ocwreloading.com
Method at (points 11 & 12):
http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/#/ocw-instructions/4529817134

[JD848]

I start from low to higher in .5 incraments with a least 3 or 4 different bullets all with at least 3 or 4 different powders,i put all bullets with different powders in separate boxes also each brass has the type of powder and grain weight written on it.I also don't like to mix up brass,same make I find is the way to go.

Later I will have the same deal as the top but with a different OAL ,this all takes time,but for myself I am in no rush,i take 3 to 5 shot groups letting my rifle cool down and do not rush any of it,when starting to approach the higher end of my loads I start to measure and check for pressure signs on my brass,which all have what was in them on the side.

I think finding what your rifle likes to shoot is the best part owning a rifle,target or hunting total confidence in your rifle is a must,not trusting or knowing the true capabilities of your rifle is true sin.Once I find my sweet spot I take my puller and tear up what's left of my data loads and start to tinker around my best bullet and load which I will be hunting with that the rifle likes with the best POI.Every day I learn something new in reloading,so I still have a long way to go,but i welcome it all.

[RolHammer]

Are you developing loads for a hunting rifle or a target rifle?Not trying for 1000 yard shooting if that's the direction of the question. I suppose we could call these hunting loads but I'll be using them on targets at the range as well.

[RolHammer]

Your bolt should always be open except when your shooting but I've found that it helps immensely to cool the barrel if you can point the muzzle of the rifle into the wind to allow cooling air to flow down the tube. This can not be done at every range every time and be sure to follow the range rules or risk getting thrown out!This was the sort of thing I was after in my 'bolt open' question to Elk, just basic curiosity. Thanks BITS.

[purgatory.sv]

Actually this round robin could be used to make your actual shooting technique consistence.

Shooting one complete group you take it for granted your presentation is the same, doing the round robin you would have to be aware of each shot.

[FishHunterPro]

I don't want to hi jack this thread but it's a good question. What do you guys do for making loads for a a new rifle that has never been shot before or bore sighted? It usually doesn't take me long to get a rifle on target at 100yds. Normally I would already have the rifle zeroed from a previous load so the new test loads would hit a large target at 100yrd and make my groups. I guess a guy could pick his starting load and make 15 rounds to get a zero at 100yrd and go from there? I don't have any factory ammo either

[Pathfinder76]

I don't want to hi jack this thread but it's a good question. What do you guys do for making loads for a a new rifle that has never been shot before or bore sighted? It usually doesn't take me long to get a rifle on target at 100yds. Normally I would already have the rifle zeroed from a previous load so the new test loads would hit a large target at 100yrd and make my groups. I guess a guy could pick his starting load and make 15 rounds to get a zero at 100yrd and go from there? I don't have any factory ammo either

You should need no more than one shot to get reasonably zeroed. Zeroed enough for starting load development.

[elkhunter11]

I don't want to hi jack this thread but it's a good question. What do you guys do for making loads for a a new rifle that has never been shot before or bore sighted? It usually doesn't take me long to get a rifle on target at 100yds. Normally I would already have the rifle zeroed from a previous load so the new test loads would hit a large target at 100yrd and make my groups. I guess a guy could pick his starting load and make 15 rounds to get a zero at 100yrd and go from there? I don't have any factory ammo either


I start with a larger target than normal, then bore sight with my Bushnell tool, and then verify by looking down the bore and verifying that it aligns with the crosshairs. I could care less where the first shots hit the paper, as long as I have a group. Then adjust the scope to move the point of impact close to the center of the target, before shooting the next group. If you really want to be safe, load a few extra rounds, and if you miss the target at 100 yards with the first shot, take a shot at 50 yards, make a scope adjustment, and then go back to 100 yards.

[catnthehat]

I bore sight by looking through the bore on a clay bird at 200 meters , take a shot then zero with the mid range loads I have started with.
To zero after bore sighting I take a shot then the move the crosshairs to the bullet strike.
I am usually on the clay in three shots max at 200 yards.
Cat

[FishHunterPro]

Right on guys thanks for the advice

[Dick284]

For me load development goes like this.
What powder and bullets do I have?
Look in the book and see if I can make do with components on hand.
Pick some start loads, from a couple books, and load it up going 1/2 a grain at a time. Choose a seating length that either respects the leade or the mag length.
Head er to the range, read the scope instructions because they tell you how to bore sight etc etc.
Get the rifle on paper, usually that's why I load a few more low end test loads, so I can get it close, this also can facilitate barrel break in(let's not go there in this thread, please)
Shoot a group respecting the bore temp. Cool the rifle down(that's why you bring more than one rifle)

Watch for pressure signs.

Take your sharpie and label the targets. Take pictures of the targets(I'm sick of rangling old targets)

Mic the case heads, compare to factory fired cases if you can.

What groups look good?
Repeat
Repeat
Tweak
Repeat
Repeat.......

[260 Rem]

Rol - the reason I shoot five shot groups is to rule out "false positives" which are more likely with fewer shots. If I only had a dollar for each time I've heard "I don't understand this, last time I was out they were all touching with this load...and today they're all over the paper"!
The annual Reloding Demo at SPFGA has been scheduled for May 15. You might find it helpful.

[RolHammer]

Oh, I totally get the the idea that having more data helps to stand the signal out against the background noise. Five shot groups would seem a minimum to me. Having at least one additional confirmatory group in that particular load weight would also seem a minimum to me. In fact, if one wanted to be rigorous about it you'd probably want to demonstrate that things were completely duplicatable on a number of occasions under varying conditions.

How one arrives at those groups looks like a cat that could be skinned multiple ways.

I do plan on attending the reloading demo and learning as much as I can. The information gleaned from guys here and elsewhere is all useful and worth considering IMO.