crossbow season?

[willy]

Any word on if they're gonna get 1 goin for next season? I think it would be great to get more out into the field hunting. Iknow the achery crowd will whine and bitch but who cares lets make a 2 week season just before rifle season where X-bows and other bow hunters can hunt. I'm lookin to buy one before spring.

[jrs]

I don't think province wide this would be applicable. Maybe some of the primitive weapon areas or select zones. I'm kind of against it because i'd have to go buy one then;) Oh well, what harm would another toy be.

[Jamie Hunt]

Why not??
Oh I know
The archery season would lose 2 weeks.
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH

Stupid rules. I wonder who exactly the bow guys have pictures of in compromising positions??
While we are at it.. why not some Muzzle loaders?? Especially in the Bow zone?
Talk all you want about Modern Muzzles. But I think we could make it work.

Jamie

[crossbows]

weve had them in my state for years and it doesnt make a diff i dont use one but i for one dont see that much advatage in them other than not having to deal with the drawing motion and draw wieght wich some cant even the lower wieghts. i wish all places would have it by the time my arms and shoulders cant handle the draw any more.

[Morbius131]

If this is going to be discussed again make sure we stick to the facts and regular discussion. Don't turn this into attacks on a person or a group.

Morb

[jrs]

"i for one dont see that much advatage in them other than not having to deal with the drawing motion"

Where i was bow hunting last year this was the biggest issue. When cover is very sparse and theres not even enough to sit up, a crossbow would make it a walk in the park (even if theres no other advantages) I can see it being appropriate in treed areas where this isn't really an issue. Just an idea, i really don't have a strong opinion on this one, but it would make coulee deer a lot more vulnerable, getting within 30 yards was easy, drawing your bow back at that point was almost always impossible.

[Rackmastr]

I'm all for crossbows and muzzleloaders having a season, but I personally dont think you can compare a crossbow to a compound, for the same reason you cant compare a longbow to a compound. The crossbow has advantages (such as less movement) in the same way that the compound has advantages to the longbow.

Personally I'd love to see seasons for each, but I dont want either to be lumped into 'archery' seasons...for obvious reasons.

[sheep hunter]

Not certain the reasons are so obvious Trev. Certainly as you pointed out the crossbow requires less movement to shoot but other than that the crossbow and vertical bow are pretty well identical in performance with the slight nod actually going to the vertical bow. There are some good arguements to be made for including crossbows in archery season as they are in many states and provinces and there are also a few arguements for keeping them out. I can't help but think that getting hunters spending more days in the field is a good thing and certainly increasing crossbow opportunities would do that, just as increasin muzzleloader opportunities would as well.

[Blakeinator2]

"but it would make coulee deer a lot more vulnerable, getting within 30 yards was easy, drawing your bow back at that point was almost always impossible."

Yeah...for a good hunter...who knows where to go and how to get within 30 yrds....most guys that good...know how to get the draw on them too. Who you tryin to kid?:b

Its 99% hunter, 1% tool.

Let them in with the rest of the bows imo. P.s. i'm strictly a bowhunter for my big game...i love my new Mathews Switchback XT and my Legacy before it too(and have done very well with both). I have thought about them (and argued about them) quite a bit and i have no problem with them, i would like to see them allowed in to the archery seasons. The differences in statistics in states/provinces where they've been allowed is not even worth mentioning...they are bows...success in bowhunting comes down to the hunter...not the tool.

B

[Rackmastr]

Have there been any studies to show success rates with crossbows? I know for a fact I could have killed several more big deer this year with a crossbow. Simple movement alone blew shots or shot opportunities. I understand that the crossbow and compound dont have a pile in performance difference, but everyone must be able to admit that the fact remains that a crossbow can be held at draw with no movement, and shot off a bipod with a scope or red-dot reticle for MUCH higher shot percentage.

Like I said, I'm all for having a crossbow season, but I dont agree with just lumping it with the compound.

More hunters in the field, the better......and I'm not opposed to giving up some of my archery season for a cross-bow season.....

[Blakeinator2]

"Each tool is different, and neither is a THREAT to others. I'm not a bowhunter who thinks that the crossbow is a threat. Like I've said since my first post, I support it. I support all types of hunting, but I do see differences, and hate it when I see people advocating trying to lump everything together. I'm not threatened, I just like to see my vertical bow in a different class because I know there is a TAD more skill involved. Kill rates, accuracy, speed, is all garbage as far as I'm concerned. The more hunters, the better. I've just become profieccient in what I do and dont appreciate other weapons comparing as if they are identical in skill level required."

Yet two of them are still already lumped together, the traditional and the compound. What's one more?

Well said btw and i see your point and don't totally disagree. My point is, where does it fit?

To me....its lumped in entirely the wrong spot...its not even close to a gun yet its lumped there...so who would even buy one? Anyhow, not the point, but where it does fit is in the archery seasons with the rest of the bows....imo.

B

[sheep hunter]

Do you feel more confident in making a shot with a rifle or a compound? Lets be honest here......when you're shaky and you are at full-draw with a compound, there is no comparison to being on a bipod and looking down a scope. Sometimes I find that crossbow enthusiasts try to downplay this. Why spend your time downplaying it? Its a fact that you are more solid on a bipod....you have less movement....you have a scope......BIG DEAL!! Crossbows STILL have every right to be in the field hunting.

I've never seen a crossbow user shoot off a bipod or shooting sticks. I guess it could be done but crossbows are cumbersome and bulky enough already so I don't see a big advantage.

I think you are downplaying your skill level Trev if you feel a a couple hours with a crossbow could make someone as profient as you with your 13 years of compound experience. Yes, crossbows do have a shallower learning curve but there is a learning curve none the less. A very proficient compound shooter should be more accurate than a very proficient crossbow shooter. Competition bears that out time and time again.

[Chung]

I agree with Rackmaster the differences between the bows.
The traditional bow hunters (long / recurve) probably had the same feelings toward compound bows when they first came out. But for people who have injuries that prevnt them from bow hunting, a primitive weapons season this would be a dream come true ( all bows and muzzle loaders).

Just me being jealous of the people who get to hunt a longer season than me;)

[Blakeinator2]

"Have there been any studies to show success rates with crossbows?"

Internet search...there was a beauty discussion on ABA a year or two ago and lots of excellent data but essentially the difference is so minimal it's not worth mentioning imo. I saw studies from several states that watched it pretty close and i believe there is a province or two that see no difference worth mentioning either. There's info all over the place as its been a hot topic over the past few years...continent wide.

Hey, did you score with your bow then? What makes you think you wouldn't have blown it with a crossbow? I've played out certain scenerio's where i think it would have helped me also but i still got what i was after anyhow, the hunter was still in the right places at the right times. Only a certain percentage of guys will be in those positions and generally they are gonna score with either tool in their hands. A good hunter is a good hunter...you can put a rookie in the right spot with either tool and their just as likely to blow it...same as how many rookies get beat by buck fever even with guns in their hands.

B

[Blakeinator2]

"Just me being jealous of the people who get to hunt a longer season than me "

We would all probably have different reasons for choosing either bow...the hardcore go for the traditional equipment because they want that challenge. I would like to see them as i think they are a neat weapon and i'd like to use it coyote calling etc. from time to time(you think its hard to draw on a deer...try a coyote) and to also be able to take people i know into the archery seasons who aren't going to be as dedicated as me. I'm quite positive i would be much happier doing my own deer with my Switchback but one of the things i like to do is take new people(family/friends) and bows are a high practice item/sized to the individual etc. so you don't hand a trad or compound bow to someone else. As it is i have lots of bowhunting permission but zip for gun hunting permission, i managed to find a saturday to get my wife her first deer with a rifle last season but was a one time deal....if we had a crossbow then we could have had her deer alot sooner. Thats just me...i'd rather not have to try and find both types of permissions...i don't like Nov outside the bowzone...way too many yahoos running around for my tastes.

I can also see other reasons they are good, for those a little older and bad shoulders etc. to enjoy more opportunities afield etc.

Eitherway, the data supports it as a bow, regardless your reasons for wanting to shoot one weapon over another...its like choosing calibers....short fat for thick stuff, long skinny flat for the prairie stuff etc. same thing. Big picture...they are a bow.

B

[Rackmastr]

No, I didnt score but I pass on lots of good opportunities and I missed a couple of deer. I've been archery hunting since I was 12 and am a very confident archery hunter, but I know that I could put a crossbow in someones hand and they would shoot as well as I can within 2 hours as it took me in 13 years.

Do you feel more confident in making a shot with a rifle or a compound? Lets be honest here......when you're shaky and you are at full-draw with a compound, there is no comparison to being on a bipod and looking down a scope. Sometimes I find that crossbow enthusiasts try to downplay this. Why spend your time downplaying it? Its a fact that you are more solid on a bipod....you have less movement....you have a scope......BIG DEAL!! Crossbows STILL have every right to be in the field hunting.

Seems most crossbow enthusiasts take too much time comparing, when all they should do is spend more time advocating for a season. They are different weapons, which require different skills, and different abilities. End of story. Argue it till you're dead, but they are different weapons IMO and should be treated differently (even if slightly differently).

I am more confident with my bow than some rookies are with their gun, but yet people dont compare a rifle or a bow. They just accept they are different methods of hunting and accept they are both responsible. A crossbow is a responsible way of hunting, and should be given its time in the season. For the same reason that muzzleloaders, shotguns, rifles, are not allowed in the archery season, I think the crossbows should not be allowed either. There needs to be seperation IMO....

[sheep hunter]

A couple things Trev....the difference in harvest rates are virtually identical between crossbows and compound bows in studies conducted in a number of states and in Ontario.

As for the crossbow being more accurate...not so. In top end 3D competition where the two compete side by side, the compound bow is traditionally the winner.

[Rackmastr]

I would never say the crossbow is more accurate....sorry if I inferred that....I simply said it was probably an easier tool to master. I think if I shot side by side with a crossbow shooter, I could probably beat him in a 3d shoot, but it also took me 13 years to become proffiecient enough to do so.

I think of the crossbow the same way that I would think of the compound if I was a longbow shooter. Its a much harder tool to master, and if I was a longbow hunter, I would be looking for earlier seasons for traditional archery only....

Surely crossbow enthusiasts can agree that some tools are easier to master than others?

Again, I'm a supporter of the season. I'd just like to hear why crossbow enthusiasts are so worried about being a part of the archery season? Do they have to overlap? I really could care less if the archery season was first or the crossbow season was first.....but they're different and should be treated differently.....

[Blakeinator2]

"As for the crossbow being more accurate...not so. In top end 3D competition where the two compete side by side, the compound bow is traditionally the winner."

That is some very cool info! Doesn't surprise me...seen many a guy pick up my bow and try and hold it out...and think how hard it would be to hold it still. But when you draw it back to anchor its like a rock...i can hold my bow steadier at draw than i can a rifle freehand...i use guns for predator calling but very very rarely do i shoot unless off sticks.

The crossbow has its disadvantages. Better make first one count, good luck getting a redraw in time...plus noisier than bows so they are gonna booger off not giving chance at a second shot anyhow. Also, don't pick the thing up until ready to shoot, kind of like drawing the bow, don't do it until ready to go otherwise your gonna end up holding it for too long and start shakin like a leaf. Also, compounds are arguably better at long range as they carry the energy much further than the crossbows, bigger longer arrows lose less energy...they are probably equal to about 50 yrds but the compound will start gaining from there...if i remember right from the discussions. So as much as people think crossbows are good for 100 yrds, lol, nope, same ranges as compound....anyone who thinks different will learn pretty quick how much a 'bow' the crossbow really is.

B

[Rackmastr]

Blake,
Can you not agree that shooting off a bipod or shooting sticks should make the crossbow easier to master than the bow? Seems this point is always avoided. I know the crossbow has its disadvantages...so does the bow, and so does the slingshot. But each have their advantanges and why worry about trying to blend together?

I'm a compound hunter, but by no means do I compare my compound to a longbow.....or point out the disadvantages to my compound vs the longbow. I simply have an advantage in mastering the compound....no doubt about it.

[Blakeinator2]

With the technology in todays compounds myself, my partner and a few others we seen get into it were drilling good groups within a couple hours. The consistancy takes a bit of time but even still, the stuff nowadays doesn't take long to learn, get your pins set...then its all down to the 'hunter' again. Yeah, good hunters could probably make good use of the crossbow, you and i can envision many new ways we could utilize the tool. But you and i can consistantly get it done with a compound too. Hey, what can i say, the stats are out there...you'll see...its no threat to the archery seasons. You and i probably wouldn't be satisfied going to that now that we're good with the compound. Doesn't matter either way.

Just as anyone can find a way to screw it up with a compound, there are probably just as many ways to do it with a crossbow. Must be, stats are out there to prove it.

B

[Whupapup]

I,m in the same category as Joaks. I have enjoyed hunting with my Hoyt for years..Now,being somewhat senior, I find it too difficult to handle an effective draw weight with the same proficiency and confidence as in earlier years.
I thinks it's time to include crossbows in the general Archery season. If that idea isn't acceptable to the hardcore "archers", at least include crossbows for use on PRIVATE LAND during the archery season.This way, no one will be adversly affected.

[Rackmastr]

With the technology in todays compounds myself, my partner and a few others we seen get into it were drilling good groups within a couple hours.

Exactly.....and compound hunters dont preach to longbow shooters about being in the same class of skill level. I can give a compound to a beginner and have him shooting good within half a day. I can give a crossbow to a beginner and have him shooting good within a couple of hours. I can give a longbow to a person and it may take him a week or more to become HALF as good.

Each tool is different, and neither is a THREAT to others. I'm not a bowhunter who thinks that the crossbow is a threat. Like I've said since my first post, I support it. I support all types of hunting, but I do see differences, and hate it when I see people advocating trying to lump everything together. I'm not threatened, I just like to see my vertical bow in a different class because I know there is a TAD more skill involved. Kill rates, accuracy, speed, is all garbage as far as I'm concerned. The more hunters, the better. I've just become profieccient in what I do and dont appreciate other weapons comparing as if they are identical in skill level required.

The muzzleloader hunter also doesnt want to hear how the rifle should be allowed in MZ seasons, and how they are so similar that they should be lumped together. Its insane to think that they require the exact same skill and should be lumped into one category of 'long guns' and I wouldnt appreciate it if I was an accomplished muzzleloader hunter.

Just my take...

[Blakeinator2]

"Blake,
Can you not agree that shooting off a bipod or shooting sticks should make the crossbow easier to master than the bow? Seems this point is always avoided."

Will have to rig a system up for in the treestand (and blind for that matter);) . Would it be nice to be able to sit and use sticks or lay and us a bi-pod...sure would. But i can set up a portable blind or a treestand on any trail etc. and do it with my compound too. Would that make it a little easier for a guy like me...yeah. Does that let the rest of the hunters get into the exact same spots with the exact same game etc.? Nope, either one and i'll get the job done...it really is that simple. 99% hunter 1% tool.

When i first heard about this topic a few years ago my kneejerk reaction was 'hell no don't let them in...they are guns'...but i read, and read some more, i open mindedly listened to the arguments and made my own conclusions. Wasn't long before the stats showed enough to confirm those conclusions....in terms of archery seasons and its effectiveness etc......its a 'bow'. May not be defined as 'archery equipment' because its not 'held at draw'...fine by me....but in terms of bowhunting in archery seasons, then the seasons should have the name changed to 'bow seasons' to accomodate a tool that certainly fits in there alot closer that to any other season(including its own).

B

[sheep hunter]

Again, I'm a supporter of the season. I'd just like to hear why crossbow enthusiasts are so worried about being a part of the archery season? Do they have to overlap? I really could care less if the archery season was first or the crossbow season was first.....but they're different and should be treated differently.....

I don't think they are worried about being included in archery season...they just want an opportunity to hunt and rather than creating a new season, which would cause archers or rifle hunters to give up a portion of their season, the crossbow hunters are just following what has been done in a large number of states and provinces where crossbows are included in regular archery season. I doubt you'll ever see extended seasons in this province, so for there to be a dedicated crossbow season someone would have to give up a portion of theirs. I guess rather than reinventing the wheel, the simplest solution seems to be to follow the lead of many of the other states and provinces that allow crossbows in archery season.

As for crossbows being easier to master...no question they are but I see that as a positive. I mean I'd rather have archers that are more proficient with their weapons in the field. When it comes right down to it though, it's the skill of the hunter that matters and getting within range is the real challenge with either weapon.

[Blakeinator2]

"As for crossbows being easier to master...no question they are but I see that as a positive. I mean I'd rather have archers that are more proficient with their weapons in the field. When it comes right down to it though, it's the skill of the hunter that matters and getting within range is the real challenge with either weapon."

Imagine if we weren't allowed compounds(only traditional equipment)...how many deer would be running around with arrows sticking out of their necks and arses eh?:lol

Joking aside, thats an awesome point. After all considerations i can make...there is way more positive(way way more) than negative to the motion imo.

Yeah, you still have to get within range, still have to get a shot opportunity, still have to move and release the shot at the right time. Whether your sitting/laying/standing...those differences are moot....its still bowhunting...its still that difficult to even get a good shot opportunity. All it is is another tool we can play with if we want...to me it only opens more doors...its more opportunity in our shrinking sports etc. Its all good in my book.

B

[Blakeinator2]

Should be some fire burning beside this thread in no time!:lol

B

[Whupapup]

Maybe there is too much emphasis on the so-called advantages of either choice. I don't think that is the issue.
What is important is that those who choose one or the other have the same opportunities to participate .
Who really cares about an "advantage"..or skill level. It,s all about equal opportunity.

[Rackmastr]

I know what you guys mean about archers and rifle hunters not wanting to give up part of their season....but I would gladly do it.

I'd love to see crossbows introduced. I know of a few 180+ deer that would have got thumped this year if that was the case.

One thing I'd ask, is if crossbows dont want to be lumped into archery hunting, why is it so important to have the crossbow season with the archery season, and not just with the rifle season as it is right now? I have no problem archery hunting during rifle season, so I'm just wondering....

Anways, this will be an ongoin subject and I'm not going to keep posting my thoughts in a repeated fashion. Not really sure why I'm even making these points, as I support crossbow hunting. I also support a muzzleloader season, as I know most do. TJ, would you like to see a muzzleloader only season, or are you happy with it in the rifle season?

Guess theres lots of things to chat about. Hopefully one day we'll see some form of season for crossbows.....

[OutdoorChet]

I don't understand why everything has to be made so easy for people. In my opinion, the thing that makes archery season great is that there is a lot less competition from other hunters because it takes a more dedicated hunter to learn how to hunt with a vertical bow than other legal weapons. There are generous general seasons in place that allow you to hunt with any legal weapon. Equipment restrictions help preserve the quality hunting experience that archery season is all about. No one is prevented from participating, it just requires a bit of dedication.

It's true that crossbows have more in common with vertical bows than firearms and they are effective hunting weapons. I don't know how great of an effect that including crossbows in archery season would have on overall hunter numbers in archery season but I know I'm glad there isn't 200 more hunters at the same priority level as me for 408 archery sheep or I would be too old to climb by the time I got drawn for it.

I think making it easier to access the archery season would have a negative effect on the archery hunting experience. Archery season isn't really about population control, general season is the main event for that.

I know lots of people think its a selfish opinion but I don't really think so. It's open to everyone - even those with disabilities that are unable to use a vertical bow.

Chet

[sheep hunter]

I'd love to see an additional muzzleloader and crossbow season. Give me another month to hunt...you bet but it's not likely to happen.

As for your other question, crossbows are much closer to vertical bows than rifles so it only makes sense that if they don't have their own season that they be included in archery season...not rifle season. That, plus having them included in archery season would allow crossbow hunters access to the numerous archer-only areas in the province....areas that are much more suited to a limited-range weapon like the crossbow.

[yes]

the crossbow season with the archery season, and not just with the rifle season as it is right now? I have no problem archery hunting during rifle season, so I'm just wondering....It would be good thing if its only during rifle season so you cant use one around the bow zone and if you could just think of the extra fun that would be added archery season.

[sheep hunter]

No one is prevented from participating, it just requires a bit of dedication.

Actually there are loads of people that are physically unable to shoot a vertical bow that would love to hunt during the archery season but can't. Before you say that they can get a special permit....most can't. The rules for getting one of these permits state that you must be missing a limb so very few people qualify.

Archery season isn't really about population control, general season is the main event for that.

Actualy, archery season is all about population control, especially in the Calgary and Edmonton bow zones. Unfortunately, archers can't control the numbers enough....another benefit of adding crossbows to the mix.

[Blakeinator2]

"I know what you guys mean about archers and rifle hunters not wanting to give up part of their season....but I would gladly do it."

But there's no reason to give up anything, gain is to be had...not loss.

"I'd love to see crossbows introduced. I know of a few 180+ deer that would have got thumped this year if that was the case."

Thats a bold one. Are you describing failed spot and stalks due strictly to the draw? We could argue the ****e out of this one. So many things to go wrong with the crossbow too...point is...how many guys get within range of 180 class deer period? Percentage too low to argue about a few that get away on the draw...your talking one particular instance. What if compounds weren't allowed...you might have even had a better chance actually...as its a much faster shooting style than a compound....one might argue that if speed is the issue then the traditional equipment would be the fastest of them all.

"One thing I'd ask, is if crossbows dont want to be lumped into archery hunting, why is it so important to have the crossbow season with the archery season, and not just with the rifle season as it is right now? I have no problem archery hunting during rifle season, so I'm just wondering...."

Just fits there, its lumped in the wrong spot. Might as well include the sling shot in the gun season too then...just about as useless.:lol

"I also support a muzzleloader season, as I know most do. TJ, would you like to see a muzzleloader only season, or are you happy with it in the rifle season?"

Now this i can't argue is a bow...this is most definitely a gun. If this can have its own season then so can the traditional archers imo. Think of the muzzle loader as the traditional bow of the gun group. Just my take....lots of muzzle loaders might not like that one but really, a 200 yrd single shot that takes a minute to reload....goes bang...kills by hydrostatic shock etc.(not hemoraging)....sounds like a gun to me.

You wanna hunt early season and have a trigger on it...start voting to allow the crossbow in with the rest of the bows imo.

B

[Rackmastr]

Heh..the only trigger I want is my release in archery season.....thats just me.

I'm all for a seperate muzzleloader season, as I'm sure the MZ hunters dont appreciate hunting in rifle season.

I'm for a longbow traditional season as well as a compound season..

And yes...I'm just as happy with a crossbow only season....

As for getting up on 180 class deer....its not a single instance. I usually do it over 3-4 times a year on most years. With a crossbow, and less movement, those deer would be dead. I've tried to train myself to shoot my bow laying down, but simply cannot do it easily enough with enough accuracy or confidence. With a crossbow, I think I could lay down and shoot with no problems. Not sure why some crossbow advocates want to show the disadvantages.....thats an advantage to me. I'd gladly shoot a 180+ deer laying down with a crossbow.....lol

Anyways, this will go in circles, and I'm not sure I'm interested in going for 6 pages in circles, so I'll leave my responses to that for a while.

[OutdoorChet]

Before you say that they can get a special permit....most can't. The rules for getting one of these permits state that you must be missing a limb so very few people qualify.

I'll have to check the current regs on that. A friend of mine was injured in a firearm accident as a kid and although he is not missing any limbs he did have a permit to use his crossbow during archery season at one time. Maybe the rules have changed since then.

Actualy, archery season is all about population control, especially in the Calgary and Edmonton bow zones. Unfortunately, archers can't control the numbers enough....another benefit of adding crossbows to the mix.

I think in most zones archery season has little effect on population control. In the bowzones where archery is the only option to control popualtions I agree that they are unable to have enough effect however I think the biggest part of the problem in those zones is getting permission to hunt. I don't think adding crossbows would help the permission situation at all but they probably would increase the harvest a bit.

[sheep hunter]

One thing about crossbows Trev is that they are heavy and bulky and cumbersome and noisy and not well suited to spot and stalk hunting so saying you could have shot those deer may not be true. Carry one around for an hour and you'll hate it. I know after hunting with one a bit this past year that I learned a lot obout what they are capable of and what their shoert comings are. I know I'll be packing my compound bow and not a crossbow when I draw the 408 sheep tag, even if crossbows are legal.

[Blakeinator2]

Outdoor Chet....

If you hunt with a traditional bow then you've got some legs to your argument...but you must still be po'd about the compounds being let in. If you hunt with a compound then no legs imo.

If anyone argues against the crossbow being allowed, yet they shoot a compound...then its hypocritical in my mind.

B

[Ha]

Had to log off, exceeded my daily posting limit LOL. One reason to allow unregistered users i guess.:lol

"I'm all for a seperate muzzleloader season, as I'm sure the MZ hunters dont appreciate hunting in rifle season."

Imagine how the poor traditional bow guys feel!

"I'm for a longbow traditional season as well as a compound season.."

Well might as really get into it then. Separate season for trad gear, then compound, then crossbow, then muzzle loader/shotgun?, then lever actions/iron sights/short fat slow arse cartridges...then a final season for the real fast whizbang hi-tech 400 yrd plus stuff? What about primitive high power air rifles? Should find a nich for them too? What about a spear season? Think of all the toys one could have to hunt all them seasons. Or how bout put like toys with like toys and have longer seasons that way? Bows with bows, guns with guns? If you really want the most effective tool you can find in gun season then get a 300 wsm and practice to 500 yrds etc. if you wanna have some fun with a character tool then get a muzzle loader. Same idea for the bows.

"As for getting up on 180 class deer....its not a single instance. I usually do it over 3-4 times a year on most years. With a crossbow, and less movement, those deer would be dead. I've tried to train myself to shoot my bow laying down, but simply cannot do it easily enough with enough accuracy or confidence. With a crossbow, I think I could lay down and shoot with no problems. Not sure why some crossbow advocates want to show the disadvantages.....thats an advantage to me. I'd gladly shoot a 180+ deer laying down with a crossbow.....lol"

I'm with sheep on the cumbersome thing. I haven't tried to haul one around like he has yet but i can see it having its own disadvantages also. Like i said before, may or may not help that one particular circumstance but overall...very small differences in what happens in the stats. There are a million ways to screw up a stalk and most guys will find one of them before its time...the crossbow won't make that big a difference in reality.

"Anyways, this will go in circles, and I'm not sure I'm interested in going for 6 pages in circles, so I'll leave my responses to that for a while."

Ahh, your about to hit your limit in posting for the day anyhow.;) :lol

B

[OutdoorChet]

Blake,

I don't hunt with a traditional bow. Compounds have been allowed in archery season for as long as I've been old enough to hunt big game so I guess that didn't upset me. I can see how traditional guys might not have wanted it though. Compounds did make archery hunting easier and I believe that crossbows would too. I guess it all comes down to where you believe the line should be drawn in order to preserve the quality of the hunting experience. Obviously you and I would not draw it in the same place just as a strict traditional archer and I would probably not. The line is where it is and and I like it where it is for reasons stated previously.

You and I have tried changing each others minds on this before and we both know it isn't going to happen now.

[Whupapup]

Chet.. I understand where you are coming from, and for the most part I agree.However, while you are enjoying the archery season in 408, some of us are omitted, being unable to participate in the early hunt for other species in say WMU 508 due to our preference for crossbows. IMHO this is not right.
The last thing I want to see is the hunting community split in to any more special interest groups. Special seasons do have their place, but not at the expense of others. Many of us simply want to participate in an early archery season that includes the use of crossbows. I really don't understand why this creates such a problem. I just don't see hordes of crossbows looming on the horizon.

[Yo]

Outdoor Chet,

Yeah, a bell was ringing that something familier about this discussion.;)

I guess my point is if the compound was good and grew the sport and opportunity then the overall gain was much greater than the loss....and it would be the same thing here again. Thats how i see it anyhow, much more positive than negative(for the whole sport...big picture).

Have a good one.

B

[Yo 2]

"The last thing I want to see is the hunting community split in to any more special interest groups. Special seasons do have their place, but not at the expense of others."

I'm behind that 100%, i can give a little for overall gain.

B

[Whupapup]

Theres a lot of real good input on this board..for sure.
Accordingly, I would like to throw this thought in to the fray.

How about an general archery season, that would include crossbows -on private land only?. I made mention of this in an earlier post but I guess it deadended. This may be the easiest way to introduce crossbows to a possible future general archery classification. Maybe I,m grasping at an elusive straw, but there must be a way that will appease everybody.



.

[jrs]

"Yeah...for a good hunter...who knows where to go and how to get within 30 yrds....most guys that good...know how to get the draw on them too. Who you tryin to kid?"

Hey Blakenator2, not sure were your at in the province but in some areas theres is not cover every 100 yards, it may be easy to it in a clump of bush and wait for a little spike or fork but when chasing the big mulies you often crawl on your stomach (cactus and all) and then must find enough cover to draw. You can usually draw, then they look at you and are so wound up an ethical shot is not possible. I felt sick when a saw a deer jump my string for the first time this year. I was so glad it didn't result in a bad hit and missed completely. I was 25 yeards away after a 150 meter 1.5 hour stalk, he just caught the movement out of the corner of his eye. Getting in range is easy in 12'' of grass until you actually need to shoot. Crossbow would be of extreme advantage where i hunt, like i said though, not a huge advantage everywhere. I found the hardest part of bowhunting is drawing, getting close was not a problem after 2 years of practice. The weight of the bow may be a big issue but it would still be a worthwhile exchange.

As for the seasons, i agree with not splitting up the hunter crowd any more, already stupid how no one can get along.

[sheep hunter]

jrs...actually the scenario you described is the worst possible for a crossbow. Until you've actually carried one in the field for extended periods of time you have no idea how cumbersome they are and are definitely not well suited to sneaking in open country. Plus they are extremely noisy and jumping the string is a real issue when a deer has noticed you. I think you are way too optimistic about the advantage a crossbow would give you in the situation described.

[Yo 3]

"I was 25 yeards away after a 150 meter 1.5 hour stalk, he just caught the movement out of the corner of his eye. Getting in range is easy in 12'' of grass until you actually need to shoot."

Your a more patient man than i. Ever hear that saying if you can touch it you can catch it? You plumb sh_t the bed Jrs. LOL, i'm just joking. Like many of you just killin time to go home early for the holidays i assume? So just havin a little fun.

Anyhow, you take for granted also how difficult it probably is for the average guy to do a 150 meter 1.5 hour stalk in 1 foot of grass. Personally i'd find a different way so you have kudos from me. I've done shorter ones where its hands and knees staying low as possible and lifting 4 lb bow with each hand and setting it down quiet is painful enough so i can see how the crossbow would be even more annoying. Sheep Hunter has more experience than either of us(since he has a crossbow)...and i can see his point. I still think you could just as easily 'sh_t the bed' with either one in that instance.

Your splittin hairs when you get into this situation imo.

[yo yo yo ho ho ho]

"How about an general archery season, that would include crossbows -on private land only?. I made mention of this in an earlier post but I guess it deadended. This may be the easiest way to introduce crossbows to a possible future general archery classification. Maybe I,m grasping at an elusive straw, but there must be a way that will appease everybody."

Anything will help. I only hunt private so not sure what the public guys think. My guess is wouldn't make a diff if both allowed?

B

[Piglet]

OK, so let's sum up.

1. Everyone seems to have gotten over the technical hump and more or less agrees that there is no great advantage to the X-Bow for weight, accuracy or range. In fact there seems to be from the previous posts that the compound has the edge in at least two categories.

2. Everyone seems to agree that there is the same hunting skill set needed for both weapons, stalking, know your game, etc.

3. Everyone seems to agree that the X-Bow is just another version of the bow family, like the muzzle loader is another member of the gun family.

4. All the evidence presented here says that based on studies there is no change to the kill ratio in provinces/states that allow X-Bow in archery seasons.

5. The X-Bow has a slightly better learning curve than the vertical bow and could result in more positive results for new hunters by allowing them to get into the sport faster with a better chance of making a clean kill. Hard to fight getting new blood into the outdoors considering the current hunter generation seems to be a vanishing breed.

So other than the "I don't want to share my exlusive season" there does not seem to be much of an argument for excluding X-Bows from the archery season.

And just for the record, I learned to shoot a compound starting in 1978, it took a long time to get proficient, I've hunted with it and greatly enjoyed the advantage of the early season to get out and about.

Maybe it's time to share, it's not like there isn't enough deer in Alberta, and with the growth boom in the size of the cities I would expect the "Bow only" zone to grow and the opportunities to hunt will outstrip the capabilities of the current (vertical) bowhunting community to be a viable management tool on their own.

My 2 cents.....

[yup]

Yup

[jrs]

I see your points on the crossbows being heavy and awkward, the only ones i've ever saw were pretty light. My compound bow is ancient though so maybe i haven't realized the benefits of a light unit. I always thought it would be benefitial, maybe i'm wrong. Could happen now and then:lol

[boo]

I gun hunted for years, now almost exclusively bow-hunt(compound), luvin it!, maybe in future trad bow. Crossbow-not likely, maybe for turkeys. But if it helped any newcomers enter the sport of hunting, excellent. And if it helped any gun-hunters take on the challenge of honing their skills to closer stalking, more patience, scent control, ect, great! Its great to see some here willing to give up part of their season for a separate crossbow season, but from what Ive seen on other sites and elsewhere, this would not get enough support. The most negative experience Ive had while bowhunting is guns going off in the vicinity(shotguns, general seasons, ect), putting game on high alert and sometimes rattling my nerves. I probably wouldn't notice a nearby crossbow hunter and certainly wouldn't mind them being there. As to how this would affect my hunting opportunities, I believe I had opportunity to harvest a total of 7 whitetails this year alone. If that number decrreased by a few I'd be OK with that.

[Whupapup]

Good summary Piglet.. That puts it in perspective. Add to it the comments by Boo in a later post,regarding hunt quality during the regular season and we have the issue in a nutshell.

I don't feel anyone will "lose" anything...or even have to give up a part of a special archery season. Seems to me many of those who are opposed to the inclusion of crossbows in the archery season anticipate hordes of crossbow bearing neophytes and clowns entering their exclusive domain. That would not be the case. Most of us would simply like to have the same opportunity to enjoy the many benefits of the earlier season..on an equal basis.

[Bow Lis]

If i am understanding this you can hunt with aa cross bow during gun season only (YES OR NO ) If yes do you need a bow lis or do you just buy a reg tag like gun season .

[sheep hunter]

Yes only in gun season and no you do not need a bow permit.

[Thank You]

Yes only in gun season and no you do not need a bow permit. Thank you SheepHunter.:D

[Rocks]

Bow hunting season should to open to all hunters hunting with equipment that makes them eligible for P&Y, that's my bottom line.

[sheep hunter]

A lot of compound bow users would be excluded then from bow season too.

[Piglet]

Perhaps I should'nt do this but I can't help myself......

So Rocks,

You think only trophy hunters should have the right to hunt in the bow season then?

Perhaps all bowhunters should have to register their kills then to ensure that they meet the minimum requirement to get into the P&Y book as well.

This is the kind of elitism that gets in the way of hunting by people who are new to the sport or try to understand what we do.

It goes along with:

Wingshooting is the only way to hunt birds......

True flyfishermen only catch and release......

And if you don't do it "MY" way you are a heathen.

Sorry for the rant, must be the Christmas stress....

[Whupapup]

A season based on a participants eligibility for trophy awards ?...interesting.

In that scenario, there may be a lot of hunters looking for another sport.

IMHO I don't think your idea is workable Rock.

[Bow Hunting]

Bow hunting season should to open to all hunters hunting with equipment that makes them eligible for P&Y, that's my bottom line. And they blame non registererd user's for stirring the pot.:\

[Duffy4]

I think you are not understanding Rock's comment. P&Y has a set of rules and definitions as to WHAT QUALIFIES AS A BOW AND ARROW. It is my understanding that Rocks figures Alberta F&W should just use the same definition for "weapons" to be used in an Archery season.

Now there is some additional Crossbow hunting opportunity outside the regular rifle season.
1. In the Special Camp Wainwright Primative weapons season you can use a bow, a cross bow or a muzzleloader.

2. in the county of Strathcona deer season you can use a bow, a crossbow, a shotun and slugs or a muzzleloader.

Not sure about the Foothills season as I don't have regulations handy.

Turning part of the early archery season into a "primative weapons season" for bows, crossbows, muzzleloaders would be an idea.

Robin down under

[Whupapup]

duffy..The idea of a special primitive weapons season may have some merit, but it doesn't directly address the issue of having crossbows included in the general archery season.
Those special seasons in Strathcona, Wainwright etc. really don't provide a solution. Many of us would just like to hunt with a crossbow in the area of our choice..during the regular archery season.
As to allocating a part of the general archery season for "primitive weapons",.. That may be stretching it. As I see it, is no need to further fragment the existing available seasons.
Just a simple change in definition is all that's reqd. .and not necessarily defined by P & Y.

The old thing about give & take I guess.

[Piglet]

Now we are starting to think!

How about having only two seasons:

15 Aug to 15 Oct Primitive Weapon
16 Oct to 30 Nov General

But here's the twist....what is classed a "primitive weapon"?

As I see it:

Muzzle Loaders
Bows (vertical and horizontal)

(Like the way I snuck in an extra week at the beginning just to even things up?)

[Piglet]

Opps,

I guess that is not as even as I thought, kind of gave the Primitives an extra 2 weeks:

Ammend to Read:

Primitive 1 Sep to 15 Oct
General 16 Oct to 30 Nov

[Piglet]

Or here is another thought:

1 Sep - 30 Sep Primitive
1 Oct - 30 Nov General
1 Dec - 30 Dec Primitive

That way everyone gets 2 months!

[Whupapup]

Good thinking Piglet..
If I may, I'd like to make a couple of ammendments to your suggestions.
(a) Include the use of Crossbows in General Archery. This way it only leaves Blackpowder requiring a slot.

(b)
Maybe something like this;

Sept1 - Oct 30...General Archery
Sept ? Oct ?......Blackpowder (non exclusive)
This way perhaps nobody will feel they drew the short end. Hope so anyway.

[Whupapup]

BTW.. Love your idea of the primitives Dec1-Dec 30 I wish !

[Piglet]

Whupapup

In the primitive under Muzzle Loaders I intended it to be all front stuffers....black powder and all.

And the Bow includes all types, Trad, Compound and Crossbows.

Primitive was all inclusive.

The General is for all Gun hunters.

I wonder if it would be fair, considering I gave the early season and the late season to the Primitive users if we should exclude them from the General season so those who only use the gun would not feel they have been short changed.

But that would allow those who want to use it all a 4 month season, while those who wish to only do one or the other an even two months of hunting each.

Granted I did split the primitive hunter seasons, but there has to be some give and take I suppose.

[Whupapup]

Dunno Piglet.. I,m thinking it's a bit premature suggesting season dates of any type at this point. Lot,s of options, few solutions.

Interesting though, to catch the feedback on the subject.

[Rocks]

Thanks Duffy, I think they didn't read my last post thoroughly...

Sheep: I take it you mean the no greater than 65% let-off? I think you are still eligible above 65% but it will be noted?

Piglet and Whup: What I said was basically pretty similar to what the regs say now on what is considered a bow for bow only season. Wanna check it out it's right here (http://www.pope-young.org/Definition.asp).

Read the post again I didn't say "only trophy hunters" or or or... just stated an equipment definition. PRETTY MUCH LIKE WHAT IT SAYS IN THE REGS RIGHT NOW.

I like bow season the way it is. I used to bow hunt a lot (compound), not so much the last five years, seems like I just don't have the time to do it anymore. I admire the trad bow guys alot, I think that's something to aspire to for a bowhunter.

I will probably never buy a crossbow unless it gets added to the bow season. Which is something I hear a lot of guys who would never consider shooting a compound or trad bow say.

You know we just went through this whole thing in a thread about this time last year? and I had the same opinion then as I do now, I like it the way it is, xbows can be used all general season, if you want to hunt during bow season do it with an authorized bow.

Oh, and Merry Christmas to you all!

[Whupapup]

Merry Christmas !
Hey Rocks.. I,m really curious as to why you see Crossbows as being so different from your choice and why they should be lumped in with rifles and allowed in general season only.
Just like yourself, there are a good number of us who would also like to enjoy the benefits the early season provides.

Our choice (the X-Bow) has a fletched projectile, is mechanically launched and has an initial velocity less than 400 fps..Kinda different than a centerfire, don't you think?... and very close to compound specs in those areas. Kinda like a half-brother.

This whole thing is about opportunities. We are not trying to impose ourselves on what some consider to be a exclusive and private domain because of design specifications. A little extra room to allow additional hunters to participate is all that is asked.
Anyway, this could go on forever. Just hoping for a break.

Have a Great Holiday..

[Whupapup]

Rocks.. Those specs provided by P & Y are directed to those who wish to qualify for one of THEIR awards. That's where the "trophy hunting" remarks came from in a previous post. Not everybody is interested in a P&Y award.

If F & W used them as a specificaton guideline for inclusion in the current Archery Regs..Fine & Dandy ! If that is the case, perhaps it,s time F & W provided their own updated definition
that addresses archery hunting in Alberta as a whole.

[Rocks]

Whup: You (and many others) and I may never agree on this subject. But hey, it'd be pretty boring around here if everyone agreed on everything. My reference to the P&Y guidlines were that although they are pretty similar to what the Alberta regs say now, they are slightly more definitive and come from the "top" of the bowhunting world.

I don't think the crossbow is much different than the compound. And if you want to use one, I say go ahead, you are allowed plenty of opportunity to do so.

However, i feel there is a difference that makes it distinct from vertical bows, which is you can "@#%$" it and not have to hold string weight, and therefore do not have to draw and hold once the target comes into range. Otherwise, yes, the hunting methods used are very similar.

Bow hunting season to me is a special thing, reserved for those who have the dedication and time to learn how to shoot and be proficient with a tool that not everyone chooses to put the work into. I loved hunting in bow season, barely any hunting pressure, minimum encounters with other hunters, etc. I think if you allow cross bows in there you're gonna introduce a lot of rifle only hunters who would never think of using a vertical bow...and if you do, there may be enough extra pressure during the bow season, that it may go on draw, which would definitely take away from anyone who wants to take advantage of bow season right now.

Good also for manufacturers, not so good for game.

So I'll say it again: if you want to hunt during bow season, you can! Anyone can, right now! In fact, I encourage you to, its great, trust me, I had good success doing it. Doing it with an authorized bow as the regs currently state! No-one is being excluded, EVERYONE has the opportunity...

[gopherslayer]

" No-one is being excluded, EVERYONE has the opportunity..."

Not quite. My friend has 2 very damaged vertibre in his back from a car accident. He can still walk and do light work. He doesn't qualify for a disabled hunter for some reason??? He can't pull a bow string back and hold it and he won't shoot rifles. His hunting is over until the change the crossbow rules...and in his eyes...he doesn't have much hope to hunt again.

to me...anthing that goes "ffffttttttt" is in one season and anything that goes "bang" is in another. Although I'm not counting black powder anywhere in there as I don't know sqaut about it LOL.

[Piglet]

Rocks (and all) Merry Christmas to you as well.

You said: "My reference to the P&Y guidlines were that although they are pretty similar to what the Alberta regs say now, they are slightly more definitive and come from the "top" of the bowhunting world."

This is where I get the idea that you seem to think that trophy hunting is the epitomy of hunting. P&Y "Top" of the bowhunting world, I think not, it is a measuring system for defining what is a trophy in the eyes of those who wish to compare thier success to others.

You also said: "Bow hunting season to me is a special thing, reserved for those who have the dedication and time to learn how to shoot and be proficient with a tool that not everyone chooses to put the work into."

Again you used the word "reserved" I cannot find anywhere in the wildlife act or the regulations that says the "Archery Season" is reserved for anyone. And although I have to admit to not being privvy to the original history of this season I venture to say that it was not put in place based on how difficult it is for some people to become proficient.

I have also reviewed the link you put in for P&Y and the current definition for what is a bow in the eyes of the Alberta hunting regulations. They are not all that similar except for the hold & draw requirement the rest of the Alberta requirements are only related to draw weight (min 40 lbs) and arrow length (min 24 in.) Therefore I doubt that the regulations used the P&Y as a basis, likely they were put there as the minimums needed to effectively launch an arrow at the velocity they felt was needed to cleanly kill an animal.

I know I am not going to change your mind on allowing more people access to the archery season, I only wish we could all get along and come up with a compromise that we could all swallow.

Also Gopherslayer, you may want to re-read, your friend can still hunt with a crossbow, in the regular seasons for rifle. His hunting days are not over, he mearly has to confrom to the current rules. This discussion is about allowing crossbows into the archery seasons, crossbows have be legal to hunt with in Alberta since 2002.

Have a good New Year all!

[crossbows]

lots of good ideas here, but the worst one was to allow muzzleloaders in the bowzone. Jamie, it's called a "bowzone" for a reason. Ya let's have guys firing off smokepoles on 5 acre parcles. Ya I know about the foothills license, it's only for a few days...

[Piglet]

Can someone please clarify "bowzone", as I cannot find any reference to it in the regulations.

I can find Wildlife Management Units where there are no General Seasons, but only an Archery Season available. And without reading every permutation of seasons I'm pretty sure there are some WMU that offer a mix of both, but on differing dates.

I pretty sure that the dates and season specifications are set for management purposes, not to offer one type of hunting priority over another.

I have yet to see the term "bowzone" used in official documentation. If someone can find it please let me know, I like to keep up on this stuff.

Thanks

[Whupapup]

Rocks..I,ve just taken my blood pressure. I's O.k now, so here goes.

For sure, were not likely to ever agree on this, but let me state this right now.

I started hunting with a Lemonwood Longbow back in the '50,s. Then, on to what was likely one of the first pure fiberglas recurves in this area. From there to laminates, then on to my Hoyt Ultr-Tec. I,m no hot-shot, but "dedication and time"...c,mon Rocks, give it a rest !
I,m now turning 68 yrs., having held a hunting license in this Province every year since I turned 16. Now, I no longer have the physical ability to "hold string weight" at the point I feel confident. I,m not disabled..just gettin old. But I still love Archery season.

Now you tell me I can "go ahead, because I have plenty of opportunity to do so".. Sure Rock, I can join the gong show in rifle season. How Nice ! No way, my man. I, and many others like me, want the same opportunity, for the same reasons, that you do..in the Archery season! Remember, "bowhunting season is "reserved" for those who have the dedication and time to learn"

Sorry, not meaning to sound upset. Gotta go do the blood pressure thing again.

[sheep hunter]

The term bowzones apply to WMUs that permit archrery hunting only. There is one around Edmonton, one around Calgary and WMU410 around Canmore. Crossbows are not permitted in these WMUs.

[Piglet]

Thanks Sheep Hunter,

I was being a bit of a jerk, I know that some people like to call the WMU around the cities "bowzones" I was only trying to point out that calling them that is a misnomer applied by those who wish they were.

As it stands there are no bowzones only WMU with Archery seasons. What I think we need to do is get a new definition on what is included in the archery equipment family.

With my previous posts I was trying to get them re-named as Primitive Hunting seasons which could allow for more liberal (can't beleive I used that word here) definitions on the tackle being used.

This is not a bad thread good feedback.

[sheep hunter]

Either that or just call crossbows...bows!

[Pappy in AB]

Another dissenter of including crossbows in the archery season. I'm with Rocks. Nope........find another season besides the archery season to use crossbows in. There already is an archery season and all you have to do to get involved in pick up a bow like the ones defined in the regulations, practice shooting regularly, change your hunting tactics (which will require additional skills and knowledge) and away you go. Not much dissent on this subject and on this board because it is not an archery centric website. There is stiff opposition on this subject from the ABA and other dedicated archery only organizations. There is a place for crossbows but not in the archery season..........which I fear would be placed in jeopardy if crossbows were included (reduced season/more draws). If you truly want to be an archer......buy a bow. Just as was said before....this is not a forum where everybody is going to agree and if it was, then it would get quite boring.

You can read the Goveernment response to the AFGA resolution W-2-2006 at:
www.afga.org//index.html?func=library (http://www.afga.org//index.html?func=library)
"BE IT RESOLVED THAT crossbows be allowed to be used during the archery season"

Government response: "There is no support for the use of crossbows during archery only seasons fromn the archery stakeholders..."

STAKEHOLDERS being the key word in this decision...

Happy New Year to all of you!!!!

[sheep hunter]

There is a place for crossbows but not in the archery season..........which I fear would be placed in jeopardy if crossbows were included (reduced season/more draws).

I've heard this arguement countless times from the ABA but it makes no sense to me. Give crossbow hunters their own season and those days will have to come from either the rifle or archery season....thus reducing the season. Also, if crossbows have their own season for the draws, the number of licences available in the other draws (archery/rifle) will have to be reduced...increasing draw times anyhow. The only way that archers will not have their draw times increased or their seasons reduced is if crossbows are confined to the rifle season and then why is it fair to the rifle hunters that they must have increased draw time waits? On the surface the ABA seems to be very greedy on this subject.

[OutdoorChet]

209X50 wrote:

Perhaps Minister Ted will take the new membership totals into consideration when pondering changes to hunting seasons and the ABA elitist hard line may just mean that the new crossbow season may come right out of the archery season

I hope that if changes are considered based on the numbers of people involved, that Minister Ted looks at the number of people that buy a bowhunting permit in Alberta each year rather than the membership numbers of the ABA.

Not all bowhunters agree with ABA policies and not all bowhunters are against crossbow inclusion in archery season, but the number of bowhunting permits sold better
reflects the level of archery participation than the ABA membership numbers.

Chet

[209x50cal]

It floors me that with plummeting archery participation that the ABA can be so short sighted. Very soon what the handful of archers want will be sacrificed to the will of the majority.
As so many here have said archery takes time, I know I once did it to but who has the time anymore? And the numbers reflect that as our economy heats up the archery numbers have died off.
Right now the ABA voice is given a level of respect out of past courtesy by government officials that is out of proportion to the current membership numbers. Perhaps Minister Ted will take the new membership totals into consideration when pondering changes to hunting seasons and the ABA elitist hard line may just mean that the new crossbow season may come right out of the archery season. Who knows?

[sheep hunter]

Bowhunter numbers (based on number of bowhunting licences sold) are dropping in Alberta at a fairly rapid rate. Allowing crossbows in archery seasn would likely do little more than bring those numbers up to historical highs. You never heard the ABA complaining about too many bowhunters then so how could bringing those numbers back up be a bad thing? See why this does seem like a very greedy position the ABA is taking. When overall hunter numbers began dropping in Alberta all hunters banded together to geth those numbers on the rise once again. Why is the ABA content to let the number of bowhunters fall?

Why are we trying to reinvent the wheel here folks? Many provinces and states do allow crossbows in regular archery season. There is nothing new or earth shattering about the concept.

[OutdoorChet]

I would rather see a season created for crossbows only and give up some time from the general season and/or the archery season (of which I'm an active participant of both) instead of just including them in archery season because I think that would best preserve the qualities of archey season as it is now.

I haven't checked on the current disablilty qualifications for using crossbows in the archery season yet but I don't like the idea of people being excluded from a season based on their physical abilities.

I really don't think that Sustainable Resources would ever create a seperate season for crossbows only because of the extra management burden, so I think we will always have just two seasons for the most part, and if that's the case, I still support keeping them only in the general season.

Perhaps Sustainable Resources should revisit the disability qualifications for using a crossbow in archery season. They have obviously considered it to some degree as they allow 12 and 13 year olds to hunt with verticle bows and cross-bows but not rifles for big game which I think is a reasonable regulation.

Chet

[Piglet]

What a surprise, the Archery only gang do not support crossbows in the archery season, that's like surveying colleges in Quebec if they support gun control.......!!

How about putting the question out to the hunting community to see what they support.

A mandatory questionaire with each hunting licence purchase should do it, no essay questions just a few simple yes/no answers to these sort of issues.

It's an electronic system an the addition of a couple of questions should be easy to implement and would get feedback from all hunters & fisherman.

Then let the SRD base their answers on the feedback of those who use and pay for the system versus special interest groups.

As to the issue of anyone losing part of their season if crossbows are accepted as archery tackle then there is no change to the current seasons. And let the harvest history prove the validity of the arguement that there would be more kills with the inclusion of a new method.

Where are the statistics on bowhunting success now? If you are going to quote facts, let's see them on paper.

I don't consider hunter surveys to be accurate, what about mandatory registery of all hunting kills. That would provide the needed information.

[sharpstick]

I browsed through this thread, I have to ask if the crossgun is heavier, not as accurate, more difficult to make stalks with etc, being the reasons to allow it into the archery seasons why not just use a compound bow?
If you want to challenge yourself to hunt with a crossbow there already exists long seasons to do so. Up north sept 17- nov 30. Archery only season is aug 25- sept 16.
If you want to crossbow hunt earlier go for sheep aug 25.

[Pappy in AB]

Sharpstick...good points, but that is not what this is about. Why do people want to use crossbows in the archery season?

It is perceived that crossbows are more easily mastered...(than bows).

If given the opportunity, people will react like flowing water.............they will take the path of least resistance (or least effort).

Crossbow enthuisiasts (or wannabees) are just like any other "special interest group" who want something. They want what you already have. They want you to tolerate them. They want to get married to other crossbow shooters. They want to wear camo turbans. They want to be able to hunt with their crossbows at night. Right.....I am exagerating somewhat lol. But they want part of the pie. There is only one pie, and it keeps getting cut into smaller or illogical pieces in order for everyone to be accepted. People have rights (he said sarcastically lol).

[sheep hunter]

Crossbow enthuisiasts (or wannabees) are just like any other "special interest group" who want something. They want what you already have. They want you to tolerate them. They want to get married to other crossbow shooters. They want to wear camo turbans. They want to be able to hunt with their crossbows at night. Right.....I am exagerating somewhat lol. But they want part of the pie. There is only one pie, and it keeps getting cut into smaller or illogical pieces in order for everyone to be accepted. People have rights (he said sarcastically lol).

Hmmm...I think I remember another special interest group getting rights...I think they were called archery hunters. There wasn't always an archery season and the general season got cut into illogical pieces. By your logic we should just go back to one hunting season for all weapons. If you want to talk special interest group, about 5% of the licenced bow hunters in Alberta are archery only hunters. The remainder are multi-weapon hunters.

Sharpstick....the crossbow would allow a great number of people that are unable to shoot vertical bows for one physical reason or another to enjoy some of the great opportunities afforded archers and it would also introduce new people into a declining sport...

I have trouble, being a hunter dedicated to increasing participation in the sport, even though it reduces my opportunities and increases my draw times, having much tolerance for a special interest group that is so protectionist of their opportunities even though their participants are declining. Give me some other arguements why crossbows should not be included in archery season and I'll listen and may even be convinced but if the best you can do is that it will get more people in the field and affect your wait for a draw tag, I say boo...freaking...hoo.

For the record, I am a vertical bow hunter too and think something needs to be done to encourage more hunters to spend more days in the field during archery season. I'd happily wait another year or two for special archery permits if it meant we had more hunters in the field.

[Pappy in AB]

If you want to talk special interest group, about 5% of the licenced bow hunters in Alberta are archery only hunters

Now I'll switch and say we have to protect existing minority rights lol.

Sharpstick....the crossbow would allow a great number of people that are unable to shoot vertical bows for one physical reason or another to enjoy some of the great opportunities afforded archers

There already is a provision for disabled hunters to use a crossbow during the archery season.

Give me some other arguements why crossbows should not be included in archery season and I'll listen and may even be convinced but if the best you can do is that it will get more people in the field and affect your wait for a draw tag, I say boo...freaking...hoo.

I'm concerned that we need more hunters in the field (as you are). However, opening up the archery season to crossbows IS NOT A REMEDY for increasing more hunter numbers. Gun hunters will pick up a crossbow and use it but it sure as heck will not create more raw hunter numbers. You'll have to prove that one to me somehow (good luck on that).

For the record, I am a vertical bow hunter too and think something needs to be done to encourage more hunters to spend more days in the field during archery season. I'd happily wait another year or two for special archery permits if it meant we had more hunters in the field.

Why is it a concern that we need to encourage more hunters to spend more days in the field during the archery season? Archery isn't for everbody and thats why it attracts the low percentage. The concern should more properly be focused on recruiting more hunters period and let them decide if they want to kill animals with arrows or lead. More people in the field with bows and arrows is a plus for hunting as much as it is for more hunters in the field with rifles/shotguns/muzzleloaders.

Now isn't thiis better than a bunch of good ole boys all agreeing with each other that crossbows should be included in the archery season?

More archers are welcome in the archery season!!! Get out there!!! Pick up a bow, fling some arrows and enjoy the sport of archery!!!

[209x50cal]

Why is it a concern that we need to encourage more hunters to spend more days in the field during the archery season? Archery isn't for everbody and thats why it attracts the low percentage. The concern should more properly be focused on recruiting more hunters period and let them decide if they want to kill animals with arrows or lead. More people in the field with bows and arrows is a plus for hunting as much as it is for more hunters in the field with rifles/shotguns/muzzleloaders.
I'm not sure how your statement defends your thoughts that archery season is a sacred cow that should be protected. You make just as good of arguement to include crossbows to increase recruitment. I remember well the hue and cry by the real archers when compound bows were included as fair archery equipment. Their low numbers didn't stop the bus from rolling over them and today's archers had better open their eyes just a wee bit right now. You hear something?
You want to think hard what it means that 95% of all bow hunters also rifle hunt.

[Piglet]

I learned many years ago how to shoot a bow.

I've hunted with rifles and shotguns.

I've learned the skills and techniques it takes to get close.

I've brought others into the sport and defended or explained hunting to those who do not understand.

I don't consider myself a "wannabe".

Last year I decided to take a break from big game hunting because it was not giving me the enjoyment that it had for so many years. I think I just figured out why.

It is a dying art. Those who hunted for food, or to try and keep alive a connection with nature are quickly vanishing only to be replaced by groups who think they have some kind of inalienable right to use animals and the outdoors for their exclusive sport.

So just keep on standing in that manger with your lip out defending your "right" and denying others, maybe your grandchildern can proudly point to your picture and say that was my grandpa, he was the last true bowhunter, back when that sort of thing was allowed.

[sheep hunter]

There already is a provision for disabled hunters to use a crossbow during the archery season.

Pappy, again you speak about something you know nothing of and I don't blame you as this is a common misconception in the archery community, due largely to them taking the ostrich approach to learning about crossbows...sticking their heads in the sand. Very few people can get a disabled crossbow permit. Take the time to read the act and you'll see that you must be missing a limb to qualify. So those countless people that are too old, have shoulder, elbow or wrist injuries that prevent them from drawing a vertical bow are excluded.

I can't see how getting the existing hunters spending more days in the field is a bad thing./ It makes our sport stronger. I think the biggest worry the ABA has is not a rush of new hunters but the fact that 95% of their own members are multi-weapon hunters and are the most likely to try the crossbow......litterally gutting their organization. I don't see the huge influx of rifle hunters taking up the bow that the ABA states (but it does make for great fear mongering)...but I sure do see crossbow hunters coming from within their own ranks and definiately the majority would come from within the ranks of existing bow hunters in this province.

[OutdoorChet]

Sheephunter,

I agree with much of what you are saying but I don't think the overall drop in participation of the archery season is as severe as some people think. I don't have a lot of facts to back this up but I did a quick check of the Antelope archery draw stats, and in 2001 there was 1440 total applicants for the Antelope Archery draw and in 2006 there was 3010 total applicants for the draw. The same WMUs were open for both draws. I know its only one stat, but its the only one I checked and it certainly doesn't show a huge decline in archery season interest.

[sheep hunter]

Look at the number of "bowhunting permits" sold in the past 5 years chet...that is the only number that reflects the actual number of bowhunters in the province. Every bowhunter must purchase one.

[Lazy Ike]

I personally know 4 dudes who have taken up the bow to extend their season. One of them actually practices in the off season. Considering that we cannot legislate ethics or morals, perhaps if the other three hunters had access to crossbows their likely hood of making kill shots would increase. Also considering the number of deer that are car killed every year in 212 adding crossbows into the mix would certainly help with management in that area. Then again I think their should be a rifle season and a sluggun/primitive season.

[OutdoorChet]

Sheephunter,

Where can I find that info?

Thanks,
Chet

[sheep hunter]

The ABA supplied me with the numbers chet...I'll try to look them up and post them but I'm certain a quick call to SRD in Edmonton would get them for you.

[Pappy in AB]

Pappy, again you speak about something you know nothing of and I don't blame you as this is a common misconception in the archery community, due largely to them taking the ostrich approach to learning about crossbows...sticking their heads in the sand. Very few people can get a disabled crossbow permit. Take the time to read the act and you'll see that you must be missing a limb to qualify. So those countless people that are too old, have shoulder, elbow or wrist injuries that prevent them from drawing a vertical bow are excluded.

Don't label me, for you know not of what you speak. I use a bow to hunt with 99.9% of the time and have been doing so for twenty-five years. You shouldn't tell me what I know or what I do not know. I intimately know the regulations concerning the use of a crossbow for persons who are permanently disabled. Believe me, I once had a crossbow license in this province but I never used it. I'll scan it and email it to you should you want to see it. You know, at some point a person must expect that they cannot do the things they once could. Come the day I am infirm or just plain unable to do the things I once could.....I'll reminisce about days gone by. I won't be propped into a blind while someone else cocks my crossbow, struggle to hold it and try to shoot it accurately. Your right though, the crossbow ruling for disabled persons is a joke. There should be no exception for using a crossbow whatsoever. Good luck on your quest.

can't see how getting the existing hunters spending more days in the field is a bad thing

Who thinks otherwise? Get a bow and go hunting!!!

I think the biggest worry the ABA has is not a rush of new hunters but the fact that 95% of their own members are multi-weapon hunters and are the most likely to try the crossbow......litterally gutting their organization.

Gutting their own organization lol........pure speculation/fantasy.

[Pappy in AB]

I didn't mean any disrespect pappy but you obviously haven't read the Wildlife Act in regards to crossbows and disability permits if you made the statement you made.....so you don't know of what you speak.

Your case is not strengthened by assuming what I have read and what I have not. I said I knew what I was talking about. However, if you disagree on that so be it.....it's not the truth however.

You are too old to bow hunt any more so then just don't hunt is what you are saying....Nice! You are too crippled to bow hunt so don't....really nice!

I was speaking of myself. This is a red herring....there are not large numbers of crippled hunters wanting to hunt. However, to every one of them, I wish them all well. Happy hunting!

But, the one thing I do know is that this protectionist attitude is sickening and you just raised the bar on that one with your statements about disabled people.

My statements about disabled people? You keep inventing things that I have never said, nor implied about any particular disability or person.

An argument is only as good as the facts. Emotion is a good string to pull but it fails to strengthen or give weight to an argument.

[sheep hunter]

Thanks for clarifying that Pappy...I thought when you said that there was already a provision for disabled people that you were responding to my comments to sharpstick as you quoted them but apparently you weren't but you can understand my confusion. I wasn't aware that you were against all disabled people having special permits. Thanks for clarifying that as well. But the fact remains that many disabled people that cannot draw a vertical bow are excluded from getting a special crossbow permit and there is no arguing with that...especially with you being so initimate with the Wildlife Act.

How do you know there are not large numbers of disabled hunters wanting to bow hunt? I can name several just from my circle of friends. And that my friend is a fact!!!!!!



My statements about disabled people? You keep inventing things that I have never said, nor implied about any particular disability or person.

I invented nothing pappy. You said that no one should get a special crossbow permit. I took that to mean that you wanted to see disabled people excluded from participating in bow hunting seasons with a crossbow. Am I wrong??????????

I repeat...you raised the bar on the protectionist attitude displayed by many bowhunters with that statement.

Come the day I am infirm or just plain unable to do the things I once could.....I'll reminisce about days gone by. I won't be propped into a blind while someone else cocks my crossbow, struggle to hold it and try to shoot it accurately.

Speaking for yourself is fine pappy but I guess if there are others that would still like to get out and enjoy this great heritage we call hunting, I for one would like to see them have that opportunity.

[sheep hunter]

Don't label me, for you know not of what you speak. I use a bow to hunt with 99.9% of the time and have been doing so for twenty-five years. You shouldn't tell me what I know or what I do not know.

I didn't mean any disrespect pappy but you obviously haven't read the Wildlife Act in regards to crossbows and disability permits if you made the statement you made.....so you don't know of what you speak. Certainly local F&W have given out permits to folks that didn't qualify under the Wildlife Act and I have no doubt you got one but these permits are not handed out with any uniformity and if you read the Wildlife Act, very few disabled Albertans qualify and many very disabled people are unable to get one. But since you figure no one should qualify, I guess it's a moot point. I guess you are against any disabled people trying to participate in activities normally reserved for the healthy or is it just activities that affect you personally? Should blind people be in the workplace? Should people in wheelchairs have access to public buildings? Should mentally handicapped people have special training to help them fit in to normal society?

Your right though, the crossbow ruling for disabled persons is a joke. There should be no exception for using a crossbow whatsoever.

I must say that that statement epitomizes the protectionist attitude of many bowhunters but it sickens me. You are too old to bow hunt any more so then just don't hunt is what you are saying....Nice! You are too crippled to bow hunt so don't....really nice!

Gutting their own organization lol........pure speculation/fantasy.

As is the influx of 15,000 new bowhunters into the system if crossbows are permitted in archery season.

The funny thing about all this is that I'm not even 100% certain of my view on crossbows in archery season and yes I hunt extensively with a vertical bow. But, the one thing I do know is that this protectionist attitude is sickening and you just raised the bar on that one with your statements about disabled people.

[Re: crossbows]

I don't know if it has been covered already but I found this quote by sheephunter and it has always puzzled me every time this topic comes up that someone makes this same statement I don't think they are worried about being included in archery season...they just want an opportunity to hunt Crossbow hunters have an opportunity to hunt, just like every other hunter out there has an opportunity to hunt. From Nov. 1 to Nov. 31 in my area of the province anyone with a legal tag can hunt with the weapon of their choice.

[209x50cal]

Crossbow hunters have an opportunity to hunt, just like every other hunter out there has an opportunity to hunt. From Nov. 1 to Nov. 31 in my area of the province anyone with a legal tag can hunt with the weapon of their choice.
Including archers. So according to you bow hunters don't deserve a special season?

[sheep hunter]

No question about that shooter and undoubtedly many take advantage of those seasons and hence the interest in crossbows. Unfortunately, they are excluded from many of the opportunities afforded archery hunters, especially hunting in the archery-only zones even though they use a weapon with the same capabilities as a vertical bow.

[Re: crossbows]

If it were up to me to make the rules I would set a primitive weapons season along with clearcut definitions of what makes a "primitive weapon" based on max. velocities of arrows and lead balls and other characteristics of the weapons. Sabots and magnifying sighting devices would not classify as "primitive".

[sharpstick]

sheep you are confusing me.
you start off saying they should allow crossbows in archery seasons because they are less accurate, heavier...etc, now you want them in archery seasons for disabled that can't get the permit to use a crossbow. Maybe you should be proposing updating who will qualify for a disabled permit.(which I agree with)
You and 209 seem to have a hate on for the ABA, which is an organization that fights for conservation, bowhunting rights, bowhunter education etc.etc. all in the name of hunting and archery. Is this not what a club is suppose to do?
They do not run down other forms of hunting like you guys, just looking out for their members interests!
Bowhunter numbers are not declining and as I said the ABA numbers were up!( I think about 25% this year!)

Again sheep why would you want to use a less accurate bulkier weapon when you already can legally use a bow in the archery seasons, and your crossgun in any rifle season with the appropriate tags??

[Re: crossbows]

Any primitive weapons season I set up would also be subject to all draw restrictions. An interesting experiment would be to do away with the general season for archery in draw zones. In my area I would be willing to bet you would lose 70% of your archery hunters.

[sharpstick]

I agree shooter, it would also result in better game management and improve the quality of the hunt!
I feel it is not far away anyway! moose is already there and mule deer is next!

[209x50cal]

Any primitive weapons season I set up would also be subject to all draw restrictions. An interesting experiment would be to do away with the general season for archery in draw zones. In my area I would be willing to bet you would lose 70% of your archery hunters.

Bingo! This is exactly what the ABA fears, reduced hunting opportunities if the archery season becomes to popular.

[Re: crossbows]

If a primitive weapons season were to become too popular and successful it would not be only the archery hunters who would have to contend with reduced hunting opportunities. Draw quotas are set by hunter harvest numbers. Draw percentages are a factor of harvest numbers vs application numbers. If application numbers go up and increased harvest drivew quotas down you can see where the average rifle shooter waiting 3 years to get drawn for a Mule buck is going to get the shaft.

[209x50cal]

You and 209 seem to have a hate on for the ABA,
Sharpstick, I don't know who you are and I'm guessing you don't know nor care who I am. That is fine with me. What isn't fine with me is you misstating facts. I do not now nor ever have hated nor stated a dislike for the ABA and I don't appreciate you saying differently. I have said that their behavior has been short sited and surprising to me but I have no wish to see the organization go away. We clear sharpstick?

[davem]

Hit there, I have been watching this forum for a few months now. I am from Ontario and have recently married an ex albertan and thought I would see what I could learn about hunting out there as I would like to take advantage of my new family connections and go hunting out there some time. It is absolutely beautiful country and I am a little jealous of all the land and animals and lack of sprawl like we have here in Southern Ontario.

Anyways I couldn't resist weighing in on this topic. In Ontario Crossbows are treated exactly the same as compounds and long bows for hunting purposes. I was surprised to learn that that is not so in Alberta. I have been bow hunting for over 12 years. My first year out I borrowed a friends compound bow that he no longer used. I got it about three months before the season started and practiced just about every day. I got to were I was pretty good with it, it was a pretty old bow, with none of the cool features of today’s but I was quite confident with it. September rolled around and I went to University, a month spent without an opportunity to shoot more than once or twice, deer season came and I missed two does on my first night, I missed them clean, because of my inexperience with bowhunting I just kept shooting and I shot all 6 of my arrows before I gave up (now I know that I was lucky to have missed and should have stopped before I wounded something). I have never hunted with a compound since, I went out and bought an Excalibur crossbow which is made right here in southern Ontario and have never looked back.

The number one advantage I see to a crossbow is that I can spend my time hunting rather than target shooting. I now live in the suburbs and can't shoot in my backyard, when I go back to the farm on the weekends I grab the crossbow and head out, I always shoot a number of arrows at the beginning of the season and make sure things are still working throughout, but the practice time is significantly reduced, also I can use the time when I am not bow hunting to go goose hunting and duck hunting. Another major advantage is reduced costs, since I live in the burbs if I had to use a compound I would have to join the local archery club which would cost a few hundred dollars a year. This may have something to do with resistance to crossbows in Alberta, I don’t see many crossbow hunters joining a bow club, they just don’t need that much practice time, but I am not there and don’t know. That and I think it is similar to someone who has exclusive hunting access on a great property, they are never to happy with someone new getting permission, crossbows would almost certainly increase the number of bowhunters. Although you can currently use a crossbow during the rifle season I doubt many people would buy a bow to use only during a time of year when they were allowed to rifle hunt, I also think the idea of a separate crossbow season is strange.

I think one of you said it best earlier when he stated that the challenge of hunting should be getting close to the animal and not in making the shot, I do everything I can to make the actual shot as easy and as high a percentage as possible. I have never shot a deer more than 20 yards away and I don’t feel a crossbow increases your range. I personally believe the advantages to each balance out and I feel that I am just as good a hunter as any compound hunter, I just require less practice time, I like to hunt much better than target shoot.

So good luck with the debate.
Dave

[209x50cal]

Hi Dave it is nice to hear your thoughts on the subject. Not everyone here realizes that Alberta is one of the last jurisdictions to reclassify crossbows. The world hasn't ended in any of the states/provinces that allow crossbows and it won't end here when the change occurs.

[sheep hunter]

sheep you are confusing me.

Sorry sharpstick...didn't mean to do that. I'll try to straighten out the confusion but one problem I find with people on these sites is that they try to read a lot into posts so please avoid doing that and I think I can make things pretty clear.

you start off saying they should allow crossbows in archery seasons because they are less accurate, heavier...etc, now you want them in archery seasons for disabled that can't get the permit to use a crossbow. Maybe you should be proposing updating who will qualify for a disabled permit.(which I agree with)

Ah, you are reading to much into what I said as I never said any of that. In fact I've never said crossbows should be allowed in archery season. I've just presented some arguements as to why they may fit. I think they may fit because they are similar in performance to vertical bows and that it would allow many disabled people that are cuurrently not able to hunt archery seasons to partake but also it would get hunters spending more days in the field and likely increase hunter numbers a small bit as well. Those are things I support. It may also help with some of the management issues in WMUs where archery hunters are currently unable to meet harvest targets.

You and 209 seem to have a hate on for the ABA, which is an organization that fights for conservation, bowhunting rights, bowhunter education etc.etc. all in the name of hunting and archery. Is this not what a club is suppose to do?

I'm not certain where you got the impression that I hate the ABA. The truth is I have a ton of respect for this organization and have many time heralded their accomplishments and goals. I do take exception to the elitist/protectionist stance they are portraying on the crossbow issue. I think it portrays them in a very poor light and I've had very lengthy conversations with their president, Brent Watson over the issue. I think all the reasons you cited for supporting the ABA are excellent ones and ones that have encouraged me to support them but I think publically stating that you don't want something to happen because it wil increase the number of hunters in the field is counterproducyive to everything they stand for. Certainly there mjay be other arguements for not including crossbows in archery season and I'd love to hear them but because it will affect "ME" is not a valid one when on the surface it appears to be good for all hunters.

Again sheep why would you want to use a less accurate bulkier weapon when you already can legally use a bow in the archery seasons, and your crossgun in any rifle season with the appropriate tags??

I think I've stated those reasons a number of times in this thread and above so I don't really need to see the reason to do it again. You seem to be hung up on the less accurate component of the crossbow. This is only at very elite 3D levels where the compound bows are slightly more accurate but in the hands of the average but well practiced hunter they are both equally accurate.

Bowhunter numbers are not declining and as I said the ABA numbers were up!( I think about 25% this year!)

I don't recall saying anything about ABA numbers being up or down but bowhunter numbers in this province are down...that's a fact. Every bowhunter has to buy a bowhunting permit in this province to bowhunt and the sale of those permits is down. The ABA has even been publically stating that and a quick call to SRD will confirm it.

I hope this cleared up the confusion.

[101sonny]

So from what i read will they allow crossbows in the archery season or will they leave it as is .I cant see where it would hurt the process just me i guess .

[sharpstick]

I do know it is you rich(209), I am not looking for a fight just do not agree with crossguns in archery seasons. Ask anyone from the provinces that allow crossbows in archery seasons, or BC that has very limited archery seasons, they all would love to have what alberta has!
Crossbows in the bowzones will not increase harvest #s, Its not that archers can't kill does, they just don't do it! (same as rifle zones)Secondly it is more not being able to get permission, than the weapon used!

As far as deer numbers in the edmonton bow zone they are down and people numbers are up! (at least where I live)
I also do not see how allowing crossbows will increase hunter #'s, these people already hunt with either bow or gun, or crossbow in the legal season already in place, allowing crossguns into archery seasons will not bring out a bunch of new hunters!

I guess I can put a comparison to flyfishing, bowhunting is like no bait, crossbow is like using worms! Make sense!!
No way is better than the other just do it where it is legal!

[209x50cal]

I guess I can put a comparison to flyfishing, bowhunting is like no bait, crossbow is like using worms! Make sense!!
You are thinking way to big here. The difference is more like comparing barbed hooks to barbless.

[Pappy in AB]

209X50

Not everyone here realizes that Alberta is one of the last jurisdictions to reclassify crossbows.

False. You will find it is exactly the opposite of what you are saying. You can count the provinces in Canada on two fingers that allow crossbow hunting (without restriction). In ON I might add the archery (crossbow) season does not start until OCT in most cases!!!!

Facts please. Here is a link that refutes your statement:
www.huntersfriend.com/cro...ations.htm (http://www.huntersfriend.com/crossbows/crossbow-state-regulations.htm)

[Whupapup]

"No way is better than the other just do it where it is legal"

That's it, Sharpstick ! "No way is better than the other".
All we need to do now is change the status quo and make them legal in Archery season. Surely this can't be as complex as some make it out to be.

[Blakeinator2]

"Bowhunter numbers are not declining and as I said the ABA numbers were up!( I think about 25% this year!)"

ABA's main argument is based on a definition....that 'archery' equipment means to be 'held at draw'. Therefore no crossbows in 'archery seasons'. They'll probably win lots of battles fighting on that leg too.

They don't care that in the real world of hunting etc. it is a bow. Its so similar in capability to the compound bow that the traditional equipment isn't even in the same league...yet they fight it. They fight overall good for the hunting community period...imo.

I agree with everything else the ABA stands for except this, not sure why they think this way on this subject but thats life...would be boring as heck if everything was perfect.

I wonder if they supported it what their membership % of growth would be this year?....and then again a year or two after the crossbow was actually included? My own guess is it would be much higher than 25%....I see this as a huge opportunity the ABA is missing out on...they could be leading this thing/growing this thing/teaching it etc. etc. etc. They could be getting it in where it fits in best at first etc. etc. They could be encouraging it in the bowzones to study it first etc.

Nope, just fight it to the bitter end.

B

[Piglet]

So Sharpstick,

If (according to your posts) crossbows will not raise harvest levels and will not raise hunter levels, what's the problem with allowing them then?

[sharpstick]

We could go on and on forever!!

If you guys think the aba should adopt the crossgun as a bow, should they also allow them in their 3D tournaments??
It is not a bow, it is more like a gun, its not an arrow its a bolt, has a stock, a trigger, most have scopes etc.
What I don't get is all of you guys whining that you want in on the archery seasons, go out and get a bow, learn how to shoot it and have fun like the rest of us.(funny no one answers this)
If you want to use a crossbow as another challenge, you have ample seasons already!! The one logical comment has been sheep with proposing changes to the handicap rules!

Pig, read my post, it's not going to add new people just change what they hunt with. Those same people that don't kill does with guns or bows won't start because they now use a crossbow!!
As far as being afraid of loosing our liberal archery seasons, I for one hope they do place more restrictions. I feel in areas they need more control for the good of the animals. Maybe they need to put all the draws so you have to choose either archery season or rifle. No more general archery season this way they can accuratly regulate the harvest.

Rich the ABA does not support crossbows because they are not classed as a bow! 30-30s don't shoot far so maybe we should allow them in the camp primitive weapons season!lol

[Re: Cross bows]

the 30-30 does not have enough muzzle energy to be classed as a "primitive weapon". It is positively prehistoric.

[Whupapup]

Sharpstick.. No one is suggesting ABA change their rules. They are fine as they are. If anyone wants to join ABA and follow their rules, I guess they can. Same idea with P&Y.

Since when is it up to ABA to dictate what the rules may or may not be for the rest of us who are not members? This issue is not ABA's to decide. It,s a matter of legislation.

I,m thinking there are more licensed Archery hunters who do not belong to ABA than they have members.

[Pappy in AB]

In case you haven't been following this........it was legislated in 2006 (check back a number of posts). Crossbows are not included in the archery season.

You can argue this all you want. But if you want to hunt with bow and arow in 2007 I suggest you buy a bow, practice and go hunting. Try it, you might like it. If you insist on hunting in the archery season with a crossbow you're missing out on a good hunting opportunity that already exists and you aren't an archer anyway....you're waiting for something that isn't there! Why wait?

[Whupapup]

Time to change that !

[Whupapup]

Pappy.. Seems like you think that all the pro-crossbow supporters are neophyte archers. That is not the case .Many have a fair amount of expierience and expertise in that area.


A greater dimension to the Archery season than what presently exists is not a bad thing. Think of it this way...Who is going to be "hurt" by the inclusion of crossbows..and why ?
Sure, this thread contains lots of responses both pro and con,
and yes, the argument could go on forever. Hopefully, good old logic and common sense will prevail.

[209x50cal]

AFGA passed a motion to request the reclassifying of crossbows as archery equipment last convention. It is up again this year and is expected to pass. Next year will make the third time and once passed the government usually takes the requested action.
Time will tell won't it?

[Whupapup]

A Possible Solution; What about a competency test ?

Applicants have their choice -Vertical, Horizontal, or Both.

Objective: Something like this...

X number of shots in a X" dia. bullseye @ X distance

No written exam..just shoot ! If you can't shoot reasonably well under these circumstances, you sure as heck can't do it in the field, and certainly would have no business being there.

Pass the test and you qualify for a go at Archery Season- Flunk and maybe you have a rifle season to look forward to.

This basic ability test could be easily applied and administered by having qualified individuals or shops set up throughout the Province. Similar to Hunter Ed, Firearms Acq. or driver examinations.

A higher entry threshold would elevate bowhunting to an even higher quality sport , It would also serve to dispel some of the many myths associated with current "real world" bowhunting.

It would simply put the emphasis on the participants ability to handle their equipment effectively ,.. not their choice of equipment.

Just a thought........

[Rocks]

Who is going to be "hurt" by the inclusion of crossbows..and why ?

If increased hunters results in bow seasons which are currently general going to draw status, EVERY current bowhunter in those zones will be "hurt"...

[Blakeinator2]

"I,m thinking there are more licensed Archery hunters who do not belong to ABA than they have members."

I'd lay pretty good money on that one also!!! They really do have a good foundation in my opinion. Based on their logic in all the proposals they do put forward it really does baffle me that they don't see the opportunity in the crossbow??????? I see it as 10 times the benefit to all the hunting community period as compared to fighting its inclusion to the archery seasons. They have enough foundation/ideas/proposals/membership etc. to be taken seriously and i really do believe that everything they stand for is a good thing.....except this one thing...their stance on the crossbow inclusion.

And Sharpstick.....crossgun my arse...your way behind in this argument if your still calling it the crossgun:rolleyes . If you really think this is some magical 100 yrd killing machine then you've not done enough homework...that simple. No offense okay. I mean....seriously....put the thing in your hands and see if its going to make that big a diff? You think Joe Blow and his buddies are gonna turn into trophy killing superstars just because of the tool?????? Pass the pipe dude.....;)

"If you guys think the aba should adopt the crossgun as a bow, should they also allow them in their 3D tournaments??"

Sorry, i had to add this quote by Sharpstick....Dude, not only did Sheephunter explain that the compound guys can kick the crossbow guys buts in 3d's but since F_CK_NG WHEN WAS A 3D TARGET SHOOT CONSIDERED HUNTING????!!!!! Comparing target shooting to hunting....are you kidding me????? IT'S A BOW!!!!! We are talking about inclusion to the archery seasons for hunting, not some target shooting discipline.....come on man....get with the program here.

[Blakeinator2]

"If increased hunters results in bow seasons which are currently general going to draw status, EVERY current bowhunter in those zones will be "hurt"..."

Rocks....are you serious?

Look, a bow is a bow, when you do the homework we're still talkin a 50 yrd game max(for the majority of anyone who picks up any of the 3 types of bow...traditional/compound/cross). Yes there might be an influx of gun hunters who think they can buy a crossbow and kill at will at a 100 yrds but their first season they'll learn that its not really any more effective than a compound bow and it still means they have to get out of the truck and put the time in necessary to kill with a bow. Treestands, blinds, patterning, long spot and stalks etc. etc......trust me....it will be a short learning curve.

Its a BOW!

B

[Blakeinator2]

"AFGA passed a motion to request the reclassifying of crossbows as archery equipment last convention. It is up again this year and is expected to pass. Next year will make the third time and once passed the government usually takes the requested action."

Its funny....this info does not surprise me...somehow i just know logic will prevail and i have not been worried at all about the crossbow not making its way to where it belongs. I argued the heck out of this last year on the ABA forums and when i got to my limit of reasoning there were others who came in that had so much more experience/data that in my opinion....could not be refuted. I mean, you could not(with open mind) read the discussion and not side with the crossbow inclusion....it just makes sense. That simple. So i am glad to read the quote above.....and with no surpise either. It can't come soon enough imo.

B:D

[Blakeinator2]

[Crossbows]

I've been a bowhunter in the edmonton bowzone for 18+ years. The whole issue here is about trophy greed!!!
.
After reading this on another board, I have to agree.
I say "yes" to using crossbows in the bow zones!!
.

Quote- “ Haven't you been stating that they are NOT that proficient/accurate, therefore, should be allowed? Now that the article has stated they are, have you changed your view? “
One study is “proof” ? I think not …… I’ve had crossbows, shot them ……. And like other bowhunters I’ll take a compound any day.

Quote - “Has it ever occurred to you that those compound bowhunters may in fact want to shoot what MANY consider a real bow & arrow? “

LOL – a real bow and arrow is a recurve/longbow. Bowhunters don’t want to use those because they’re hard to use. And they don’t choose crossbows in states that allow them because they too are troublesome and frankly, compounds are better hunting weapons.

BOHNTR – I was anti-crossbow up until a few years ago when I switch to traditional archery. Any attempts to argue that the functionality separates bows is irrelevant because of how easy compounds are to shoot in todays high tech world. You cannot argue against crossbows based on technology without arguing against compounds too.

It’s impossible.

So take another angle, and say that crossbows will mean more hunters, more animals killed, leading to a lesser season and smaller bag limit. No, that don’t hold water, because in states that allow crossbows for everyone in archery season, no facts exist that point to that – its simply a wives tale.

I use to argue then that the “character” of the typical crossbow hunter isn’t quality. They brought in unfavorables into archery season. But then after bowhunting for so many years, I know that slobs shoot every kind of weapon available, it has NOTHING to do with the weapon, at all.

So I went the route that P&Y uses – that a bow isn’t a bow unless you have to draw “in the presence of game “ – that’s laughable after shooting a longbow the past few years. In retrospect, I NEVER drew my bow with the animal in my presence. I ALWAYS drew my bow as the animal came in, as its head was behind a tree etc, and then I held until the shot presented itself, or rather, until the animal moved into my presence. That’s not understood by bowhunters unless you’ve hunted with trad bows.

So its not the shootability of the bow really, its not the draw in the presence of game, its not who shoots them and there is no evidence that crossbows ever lead to negatives. So WHY are we against them again ?

And I couldn’t generate a good argument, and I changed my view. I refuse to be a sheep, led along by what others say without thinking it through and coming to my own conclusions.



Proutdoors – you keep saying how you want to fight to keep them out, but you can offer NO valid reasons why.

Never have crossbows in general archery season been anything but positive. That is fact

They are no better a weapon, proven by archers who choose compounds over them where crossbows are legal.

There is no “drawing the presence“ argument, because compounders don’t draw in the presence either.

Nothing ya’ll put forward holds water, nothing. I’ve been through these debates the last couple of years – I was on YOUR side of it for a couple.

“ get BETTER reasons Brad and I'll listen. “

Cool. The same reasons compounds were allowed, so too should crossbows. The same reasons mechanical releases, fiber sights, greater than 65% letoff and mechanical broadheads were allowed, so too should crossbows. Every state to my knowledge that has allowed crossbows for everyone (not just handicap) has seen an increase in bowhunter numbers. That’s a GOOD thing, not a negative.

Are those good enough reasons ?

Buckrub – I’m not criticizing you, but yes, others hate that you use crossbows.

The whole “western” argument is silly. I lived in Colorado for several years. I’ve hunted NM, WY, SD, CO and several other states. The “herds” would not any more negatively affected by crossbows than they are with compounds, recurves and longbows. Why ? Because much of out west is tag systems, and very limited tagging. Does it matter if I use my 6 PP’s and hunt with a compound or a crossbow ? No, it doesn’t.

The only thing I can see, is that crossbows might bring in more bowhunters. Gawd that would be HORRIBLE, wouldn’t it ? Talk about selfishness ………

[Blakeinator2]

"You can argue this all you want. But if you want to hunt with bow and arow in 2007 I suggest you buy a bow, practice and go hunting. Try it, you might like it. If you insist on hunting in the archery season with a crossbow you're missing out on a good hunting opportunity that already exists and you aren't an archer anyway....you're waiting for something that isn't there! Why wait?"

Pappy, currently we have traditional guys and compound guys. You don't think they know their place? You don't think the traditional guys know they got it way tougher than the compound guys....and you don't think the compound guys don't think the traditional guys are way too hardcore? You don't think the compound guys have the utmost respect for the traditional guys?

If the crossbow is included then it will be same thing, yeah, majority will choose that in the long run...shortest practice time etc. etc. But those seeking more of a challenge will move to the compound or traditional if they are really wanting the ultimate in difficulty. Just like the guys who would choose a muzzle loader over a 270 WSM.

Its an individual thing. Its simply one more choice for humanity. Choices are a good thing. I'm a compound guy...could i feel as good about shooting trophy deer with a crossbow? Not likely. So until i can't shoot them anymore i won't be lookin at a crossbow for myself. Doesn't mean the option isn't a good thing!

Heck, in my hunting career i might choose to hunt with all three different bows just simply because each one interested me at the time. Just like i might get a muzzle loader some day...or some whiz bang weatherby super magnum some day? Its the choices that are good overall and if one bow fits in with other bows then by golly...put it there! Putting the crossbow in with the guns is like putting Kate Moss in an eating contest.

Personally i want the crossbow inclusion so i can take my brother in law, my wife, my friends with me in the bowzone to get their 'first deer'(with a bow to boot!)....which i can set them up on and take a doe no prob. And we all know we could stand to take way more does out of the bowzone...the tag allowances tell us that....not to mention the amount of deer/car collisions.

That is merely one reason to want a crossbow. All gun hunters have it this easy. They can take anyone new with with them and get their first deer...simply because it takes very little time/practice to learn how to use the tool. The hunter is stilll me(or the guy who takes the rookie out for their first deer) but to me....that may light a fire/create a spark...of interest into our sports. The more people i can take with me the better...the more that might take it up as seriously as i do. Its simply one reason to want the inclusion.

I don't have much gun permission...i don't have any as i'm so focused on bowhunting. So handing a 70 lb 29.5" draw compound bow to my wife is a waste of time. You can argue that if they are serious enough then they'll buy their own and do the necessary practice....all i have to say to those guys is....'get bent you selfish pr_ck', and so sorry for my attitude on the subject but....go gopher hunting...i can take 3 or 4 newbies with me and arm them will all sorts of airgun/rimfire etc. I can go coyote calling and arm newbies with single shot centerfires in short order etc. Yet the one discipline i'm most passionate about (bowhunting) and all they can do is sit and watch?...as i can't just hand them my bow etc.?...and there is a bow that i could hand them yet its 'not allowed'??????? Once again i get back to the 'get bent' type of statement....as to me.....me personally....its a good thing for hunting overall. Its a bow. In every aspect i could research....in regards to 'hunting'...it's a bow!

Sorry for the rum fueled rant but its a bow folks....a little research and you'll find out the same as i did. Whether it helps guys with screwed up shoulders, old weak bodies, young weak kids/women, guys who just like to introduce people to the sport etc. etc. etc., even if it helps really good hunters score a few percent more likely than they could with a compound........it doesn't make enough of a negative impact to offset the staggering positive impact it makes if included in the archery seasons.

Its the 'good/talented' hunter who can make the most use of it....the same dude will still likely do the same with a compound...we're talking such a small percentage of guys who can actually make a small percentage of difference in the kill ratios of trophies. Those guys can make it work with whatever is in their hands.

B:lol

[Lazy Ike]

What I don't get is all of you guys whining that you want in on the archery seasons, go out and get a bow, learn how to shoot it and have fun like the rest of us.(funny no one answers this)

Excellent logic, if you want to hunt in a weapon specific season; learn to use the weapon required. I would have no problem seeing the whole season carved up into segments that included bows, then x-bows, then bp, then sluggun and then rifles. Probably work out to be around 15 day seasons each and every hunter simply goes through the draw. Given the number of bowhunters that say "get a bow nd go hunting" I'm sure they would love to fill their lockers with this wide variety of weapons in order to enjoy as much of the seaon as possible.

[Piglet]

Sharpstick,

Like the quote above points out, I think if you read the previous posts most of the people in this discussion (including myself) are bowhunters, and from what I can see experienced.

So we have already pickup the bow and gone out and had some fun.

Maybe what you and Pappy can't get past is the fact that we are not all foam at the mouth fanatics that are afraid of letting new things be tried.

Good luck with your season this year, maybe I'll see you out there. Provided you don't think I would be crowding you out.

[Blakeinator2]

"Maybe what you and Pappy can't get past is the fact that we are not all foam at the mouth fanatics that are afraid of letting new things be tried."

:lol :lol

Lol, no doubt, the data and logic are all there...makes most sense to include it in the archery seasons, there's no data we don't know yet or can't get already from other parts of the continent so whats the hold up? Life is short. I get the feeling that Alberta is always at the arse end of innovation/decision making etc. regarding our outdoor sports? Takes forever to implement changes that make sense etc. Its a shame imo.

B

[sharpstick]

Blake sober up so we don't have to read pages of crap from you, just another tough guy behind a computer screen that has to swear!
As far as a crossbow being a bow, shake your head, you don't hold the string, it sits ready till you FIRE it.
Bottom line, if all you crossbow hunters are really that into them you have been given ample long seasons province wide.

I keep getting asked how will it hurt the bowhunters if crossguns are allowed, guess I should ask how will bowhunters benefit from allowing them?

From what blake said he is tired of practicing with his bow so he needs to use a crossbow, pretty lame reason to allow crossbows in an archery season but probably the reason most want it changed! As far as your wife goes buy her a bow that fits like I did and she will have a blast shooting it like mine does.

Also curious about the 3D shoot comment, probably the best practice you can get for hunting so why the blow up about crossbows, if you want to hunt with them why not 3D with them??

[Give it Up]

I keep getting asked how will it hurt the bowhunters if crossguns are allowed, guess I should ask how will bowhunters benefit from allowing them?A question with a question How original sharpstick as a bow hunter i cant see who it would hurt plenty of room for everyone ,Break it down hunting is hunting .Give it a rest i am starting to smell a dead horse in here.:eek

[Jamie Hunt]

Personally, I think this whole thing is retarded.
Why cant some sort of compromise be reached?

Why not this set up

Sept = Bow
Oct = Bow,CrossBOW, Muzzle
Nov = Rifles and everything else.

It's not like we are re-inventing the wheel here.

I know some areas of the province only have a couple of weeks of bow season. Perhaps those should be left alone.
But as far as southern Alberta goes, lets get this open.
Bow zones also need to at least add cross bows if not Muzzles as well.

I have read the position of the ABA. It reeks of selfishness.
I was told a long time ago by a F/W officer that the ABA has to much political power to allow x-bows or muzzles into the bow zones. I hope after all these years we can prove him wrong.

Jamie

[Whupapup]

"..guess I should ask how will bowhunters benefit fom allowing them in"

By the sounds of it Sharpstick, you feel bowhunters have THE FINAL SAY on this one. I,m curious..just who are these bowhunters, and how can I contact them? I would like to be ALLOWED in.

[sharpstick]

Peter I have answered the first question(read the first 7 pages), no one will say how it will benefit bowhunters?
Jamie they did compromise, crossbows can be used from aug 25 till nov 30 depending on the zone and what you want to hunt!
I guess my point here is give them an inch they want a mile,

pup buy a bow everyone is welcome! Check out the ABA website some good info!! No bowhunters don't have the final say but we do have a voice!

[Agree To Disagree]

Peter I have answered the first question(read the first 7 pages), no one will say how it will benefit bowhunters? Sharpstick i have read the hole tread and yet it has gone a full circle.(With One conclusion agree to disagree.):D Happy New Year

[Whupapup]

I have two Bows already, Sharpstick. A Hoyt and an Excaliber.

[Blakeinator2]

"From what blake said he is tired of practicing with his bow so he needs to use a crossbow, pretty lame reason to allow crossbows in an archery season but probably the reason most want it changed!"

Lol, yeah...thats exactly what i said.:rolleyes I get so tired of having a 50 yrd range at work so i can practice anytime i like....so tired. I don't enjoy shooting with the other hunters i work with before and after work, and during lunch too. I didn't buy a new broadhead target and a glendel full rut for the range either, the other hunters didn't pick up a couple new targets either...as we don't go through them every year or so. I hate shooting Mathews bows....i hate it...they suck...too boring, smooth and easy to shoot.

"Blake sober up so we don't have to read pages of crap from you, just another tough guy behind a computer screen"

Yeah, sober now, sorry about the swearing...i pick that up from my wife(just in case anybody missed it...that was a joke). I'm not apologizing for the long windedness at all...hey....you obviously read it...what is such a smart guy like you doing on an internet forum anyhow? Quit wasting your time reading my drivel. And you got me on the tough guy bit...:o

And yes to the other responses...dead horse.

Sharpstickypoo....you saying that all hunters should shoot 3d's or something? I haven't shot one yet, got my range, put in my time at the range as efficiently as possible and out to the field i go. You can have the sausage parties all you like. That was a joke btw, just don't have interest in the target stuff as much as i do the field stuff....while all the 3d's are going on i'm out calling predators. Are you saying that the only right way to enjoy bowhunting is your way? Thats what i thought you were saying...and i'm saying your wrong. So it looks like we will go round and round beating the dead horse then.

If you don't think more choices are better when the data supports it etc. then by all means your entitled to your opinion. You know mine. Its a bow man...just a bow. Choices suck, in fact the gun guys should never be allowed to use anything except old 30-30 lever actions with iron sights...thats it. We should all have to do it the same way. We must kick the compound out of the archery seasons as soon as possible and to heck with advancemet or putting like tools where they fit etc. Who needs or enjoys choices or change for the good???? Wait a minute....

B

[sharpstick]

Blake you seem to have trouble seeing another point of view, as sheep said to me earlier in this post read it for what it is, I did not say you have to shoot 3ds, just said it is good practice! According to you I can't have my own view on the subject!
Kind of like the rest of the responses I get from you, you have to resort to name calling and such...shows everyone here what or who you are!!

[sheep hunter]

Just a point of interest sharpstick....compound shooters and crossbow shooters do compete side by side in many 3D competitions.

And pappy, there are three jurisdictions in Canada that recognize the crossbow as archery gear.....Ontario, BC and NWT.

[Blakeinator2]

"Blake you seem to have trouble seeing another point of view, as sheep said to me earlier in this post read it for what it is, I did not say you have to shoot 3ds, just said it is good practice! According to you I can't have my own view on the subject!
Kind of like the rest of the responses I get from you, you have to resort to name calling and such...shows everyone here what or who you are!!"


Look Sharpstickypoo...your just angry cause your wrong. I can't help it that i'm right. Suck it up. Hope your not an oilers fan tonight...(calgary took it to em good):b .

All kidding aside Sharpyboy....how serious do you really think i am? LOL, yeah...i think the crossbow fits with the rest of the bows but i don't really care that much...ask the ABA...if i did i'd be all involved etc. but i've actually only got enough time to argue it a little on this particular forum.....cause its FUN! And yes....i believe i'm right...but i have no prob with others argueing their own opinion. Real life i'm a pretty fun guy to hang out with...even if your an oilers fan....so relax and please try to keep this whole 'its just an internet forum thing' in context okay!....i'm bustin your balls as much as i'm trying to make a point. Your opinion is as good as mine Sharpy...if i argue a little dirtier than you then so be it...aint no thing but a chicken wing aaaaaite?

B(who just got back from the flames/oilers new years eve blowout!.....whats that? oilers given up 24 goals in 4 games or something....OWIEEEE!;) :p :lol )

[Blakeinator2]

"Blake you seem to have trouble seeing another point of view"

Sorry to reply to myself.....when i first heard of the subject...i was of the same opinion as you Sharpy. Honest, my kneejerk reaction was 'screw that!'...no crossbows in with my bows! But i did alot of research afterwords and this is where i'm at now. I think most guys who do the same end up with the same opinion. It's not near the threat we initially think it is.

B(p.s. happy new year)

[Rocks]

I'm gonna try a different tack on this one. Since the 1950's, the ABA has fought for bowhunters rights. They were only successfull getting the pre-season archery season that the crossbow hunters so desperately want to join in 1976/77.

So it seems to me a lot like biting the hand that feeds you when some small group tries to directly oppose what constitutes archery equipment with the very group that fought so hard for this season to exist!

I say the ABA won us these rights, lets stand by their side and back them up!

[Blakeinator2]

Oooooh......I like your moves Rocks! Thats a good one.

Problem is...there is a bow that fits better in that group than with the guns....sorry...but its true....the crossbow fits in with the other bows....too hard to deny. Your last post was so good it makes me wanna join your team but...the logic on the weapons themselves says....NOPE.

fffffffffft........vs.........BANG! Sorry...its a bow.

I gotta go with that. Way to go ABA on that fight back in the 70's but time to lay off the pipe and recognize another tool that fits in that category for hunting okay!!!!

The poor ole crossbow...persecuted like its some kind of snake on a plane or something;) . Strikes fear into the hearts of so many....but all it is is one of our marvelous inventions....just like the compound. No reason to treat it like the anti-christ....we made the dang thing. We took a compound and put a stock/trigger on it...how smart of us eh?!!! Yet then we treat our own invention like its hell spawn????? Go figure....:rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes

B

[Blakeinator2]

So, back to this...

"So it seems to me a lot like biting the hand that feeds you"

I wonder what the percentage of members of the ABA shoots compounds????? Cause those particular members who stand with the ABA on this are just plain ole hypocrits imo. Its so simple that it seems so easy to dismiss. The traditional guys also fought this same fight when the compound bow came into the picture....'its not a bow if it has training wheels etc.'....so guess what....this is exactly the same thing. EXACTLY!!!! So any compound bow shooter who is enjoying the same technological advancements in the sport that i am....yet fights the crossbow inclusion....is a hypocrit. And.....who likes to be a hypocrit?????? Not me man.

For crying outloud folks...we have peeps(rear sights), fiber optic sights....release aids!!!! Are you kidding me on this crossbow thing?????!!!!! What is the difference?????? I'll take my switchback xt against a crossbow hunter anyday...will have to wait for its inclusion though. We'll go for numbers of deer and inches too.;)

B

[sharpstick]

It all makes sense now blake, you are from calgary and are a flames fan.................say no more!!

[sharpstick]

Sheep I have never seen crossbows and bows at the same 3D just curious where you have seen this??

[sheep hunter]

It's quite common in the east sharpstick.

I know several shooters out east that are very proficient with both crossbow and compound bow and enjoy shooting both thoroughly and are quite surprised at the division out here. For them when they head out archery hunting they choose between the crossbow or compound as a rifle hunter would choose beteen his .308 and .30-06. It depends what they are hunting, the style and of course their mood. To them that choice really adds to the experience of an archery hunt. I think many feel that introducing people to archery through the crossbow is very good for the sport and many of those shooters become more interested in archery and want to expand their experience so they end up taking up the compound bow as well, just as most hunter out here begin with rifle and then take up the bow later.

There seems to be this belief out here that you are either a crossbow shooter or you are a vertical bow shooter but the truth is, a huge number of crossbow shooters are also accomplished vertical bow shooters and hunters. I know I enjoy shooting both a lot and love having that choice.

[Duk Dog]

Good points in your last post Sheep Hunter.

How many of the anti cross bow people have actually shot one? I for one have shot both a x-bow and a compound bow. I just returned from Christmas back east and their deer season is still open for archery hunting - whether it be cross bow, compound, or traditional archery. I know people that own both bow types and as SH indicated they have a choice before they set out hunting as to what they will use. You can rest assured that x-bow hunters eat just as much tag soup as other bow users do. A good friend of mine back east has taken 1 deer during their rifle season. He has yet to take one this year with his bow (x-bow or compound). In fact he had a nice buck close to his stand, but turned down the shot with his x-bow for the same reason he would have with his compound bow - he did not have a clear shot (branches in the way) and did not want to risk wounding and losing an animal. If your fear is that the addition of x-bows will have the woods overrun with new hunters you are sadly mistaken. Guess what you still need to sight in your x-bow (same as with other bows), still need to practice to be effective with your bow (same as other bows), still need to get up close and personal with the animal (same as other bows), still need to get within your comfort zone for shooting whether that be 20 YDS, 30 YDS etc.. (same as other bows - notice a trend?)

Perhaps what they could do is designate some trial zones where x-bows can be used during the archery season. With that done monitor the number of hunters in the field, and numbers of animals harvested. I am confident you would not find places overrun with hunters, nor would you find an over harvest of game.

[sheep hunter]

The other limiting factor with crossbows in the cost. You are looking at over $1,000 to get set up so I can't seeing it attracting hoards of rifle shooters when they have plenty of opportunities already. It would attract some serious hunters to the sport of archery and how is that a bad thing?

[grandzillaa]

This is kind of funning having all these polls again and it wasn't me this time starting them.<img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif" /> Anyhow someone said that they are not a "bow", but I personally don't think they are not a rifle neither. True they do shoot vertically and they do have a stock, a trigger, and they shoot a 20" shaft (bolt) instead of a 28" + shaft (arrow). I shoot alum. 17" shafts in my crossbow and I use 30" alum. shafts for my compound. It is the same material just smaller in lenghts, so they call the smaller one a bolt which has a flat nock (it may not be called a nock) but you get the picture, or as like mine a little groov. My 30" alum shaft or arrow has a deeper nock that attaches to the bow sting.

Now when I pull back my 180lb crossbow string it catches the "trigger" and locks in place. When you attach your arrow release to your compound bow string it locks in place and when you poll back on the compound bow string with the arrow release the string is now locked in place until you release it by squeeseing the "trigger". Now I am not sure how your crossbow trigger is but my trigger on my crossbow (in my eyes)(my opionon) is a release that is horizonal instead of vertical as on the compound bow.

My 17" alum. bolt and my 30" alum. arrow both have to have board heads on them in order to hunt big game. I went to Wholesale, Pipestone archery, Sprucegrove and Sherwood park and I was told that the distance of the crossbow isn't that much better than a compound bow. Someone said that you can put a scope on a crossbow therefor it is like a rifle, true you can put a scope on a crossbow, but in a few hunting magazines I saw compound bows with scopes on them as well.
Take alook closely at your crossbow and you rifle. Does your crossbow have a barrel with spirals, does it have a magazine that can hold 5 bolts that pop up once you pull the string back, and when you release that bolt and you pull the string back another bolt pops up, does it have a bolt that contains the firing pin that pokes out its head after you squeeze the trigger and kicks the bolt in the butt which in turns sends the board head only flying? I think not. Oh and there is no build up of gun powder as well.

In my opion and this is all it is simply my opionon, a cross"bow" is more closer to a compound "bow" than that of a rifle.

[sheep hunter]

Well if nothing else, this thread has raised the awareness of crossbows a bit and provided a lot of information and I'm certain dispelled a bunch of the myths surrounding these bows. Whether they are archery gear or not is certainly up for debate but I still say that the ABA needs a much better arguement than it will put more hunters in the field and that's what drew me into the debate from the beginning. I'm not certain where I stand but I do know that we need to stand together to promote the heritage of hunting.

[Blakeinator2]

I agree, i've argued this for a few years in a row now. Seems to come about at the end of each season when some of the other popular arguments come about. Its kind of a fun thing for me so if i sound like i'm busting somebodies balls its because i am busting somebodies balls. I like to get people worked up a bit on the subject...like i did the first time i argued it...now its all fun and i am content with my compound but looking forward to see when the crossbow is allowed...its actually a pretty slick invention of ours and imo way under utilized. Looking forward to sunday hunting and a few other things too. Its good to have these discussions etc. it gets awareness out there...takes awhile for things to become universally known...and then changed...such is life.

B

[pencapchew]

Don't you need a FAC to buy a cross bow? if yes i don't see it bringing anyone new to the sport as some have suggested.

[209x50cal]

Don't you need a FAC to buy a cross bow? if yes i don't see it bringing anyone new to the sport as some have suggested
No. Why would you? It isn't a gun it is a bow.

[Okotokian]

Interesting arguments, many of which I don't understand at all :b

As someone who has never shot a bow of any configuration in my life, perhaps I have a bit different, and maybe unbiased, (and admitedly uninformed) perspective. Compound bow... crossbow... does it really make a difference to this particular question? I get it that there are some similarities, and plenty of differences with regard to technique and use. It strikes me though that the primary question to be asked in any discussion of legalizing a new weapon is "Does the weapon usually deliver a one-shot kill that minimizes animal suffering and/or loss?" If the answer is yes, allow it's use.

I might put on the added proviso that the weapon must be no more lethal than a centerfire rifle. By that I mean if it's harder to take game with it than with a rifle, fine, if it's easier (like using claymore mines, heat-seeking projectiles, etc.), then no. That way game populations will be no more at risk than through the growth (ha!) of the sport through traditional weapons.

I would think separate seasons are not required either. Personally I don't think there should be separate seasons for any weapon. Just my thoughts. You likely have a different view, and I can respect that.

[sharpstick]

I have to ask if all you guys think the crossbow is a bow, why in the ARCHERY magazines are there no crossbow articles and no ads for crossbows? I also have not seen mathews or bowtechs latest crossbows!!
Sheep
you keep saying the ABA's only reason for opposing xbows is reduced opportunities for bowhunters, I know you have talked at length with the ABA and it goes much deeper than that!! I believe Brent watson posted a reply to the xbow issue in the Alberta outdoorsman I just can't find which isssue, maybe Rob can help with that one? The ABA's position on crossbows was put in one of their newsletters, along with a couple studies that have been done on the issue. A good read if someone cares! (sorry I don't have specifics but I will try to get the mag issue and newsletter Date)
Sheep, Interesting, I have never seen xbows shot at 3D's here!
I pulled the archery #'s for the past 5 years, all within about 700 bow permits sold, no big decrease or increase!!
I will post them, just don't have them in front of me!

[Chevy 454]

The reason there is nothing about crossbows in archery mags, as I'm sure you know, is that the editors would be barraged with the vocal anti-crossbowers threatening to boycott their mag. Archers who are neutral or agree will read and enjoy quietly.
I agree with xbows in archery season. They shoot a arrow with a bow.How hard is that to figure that they are more alike than different? It is established they are short range weapons with similar trajectories to compound bows.
The only thing I can see different is the use of a scope. If that is a big problem,regulate that they are to be used with their peep and pin sights!

..Al.

[sheep hunter]

Sharpstick I've read the ABA and Brent's comments on crossbows and the main objection was loss of opportunity and increased draw waits. In fact that's what caused me to call Brent in the first place.

I don't know why you find it interesting that there are no crossbows at 3D shoots here when you consider who is organizing the shoots.

[sharpstick]

Sheep nowhere have I seen crossbows with bows, the big shoots in the us, buckmasters, realtree, or even any video!! Maybe yours if you put your doe on the next vid! In alberta the ABA holds three sanctioned shoots, the 3DAA holds up to seven sanctioned shoots in the south alone, and several more in the other three "tour" regions!! Then a final sanctioneed shoot to determine the provincial champion!! The 3DAA is a 3D archery club, why do they not have crossbows at their shoots?
Sheep are you sponsored by a crossbow company????

[sheep hunter]

Sheep nowhere have I seen crossbows with bows, the big shoots in the us, buckmasters, realtree, or even any video!!

And I've never seen Mt. Everest...guess it doesn't exist either. There is life outside yours and my small circles sharpsick. In fact there is a whole world out there.

The 3DAA is a 3D archery club, why do they not have crossbows at their shoots?

I'm not big into speculation...possibly you should ask them if you are so curious.

Sheep are you sponsored by a crossbow company????

Me personally? No.

We are getting to the point in this thread where it's going in pointless circles. Obviously people are going to have a variety of opinions on this subject and it's only one that I waded into because of the protectionist attitude the ABA had. It really doesn't affect me as I'm perfectly able to shoot my several compound bows and do so. If crossbows were included in the archery season, I'd likely hunt with one but I wouldn't give up the compound either. Personally I love having choices, just as I hunt with my muzzleloadrer some days and my rifle others. I'm not on a crusade here to have crossbows included in archery season but there was a lot of misinformation being spread and I hate to see that about any group of hunters. I think that's likely enough said.

[Rocks]

Are there any posters on this topic who are are employed by, sell for, or are sponsored for crossbow manufacturers?

Blake if you don't sell xbows to vertical only guys, you should, you're probably the one guy who could do it...

[Whupapup]

Now that most everybody has had their input,it seems there are valid positions on both sides of the issue.
Personally, I can't see where a compromise is unattainable.
Those who wish to maintain the status quo and leave the archery season as it is ..fine. For those who would like to have x-Bows included..this is possible. All that is required is one very small change to the regulations. No additional or split seasons would be involved. Simply allow crossbows to be used on PRIVATE LAND ONLY during the Archery season. Leave the GREEN ZONE as it is. Leave the SPECIAL SEASONS as they are.
By doing this, the special interest groups are left unscathed and those who have an opportunity to hunt the Archery season on private land can do so...with Crossbows if they so choose! I just can't see a problem here. If I,m missing a major point, I would sure like to know what the heck it is.

[grandzillaa]

Has anyone used a crossbow in a rifle shoot? The question was asked if they use a crossbow in a archery 3D, so that is why I asked my question. Why not allow crossbows in a 3D shoot. It would be interesting to see the final out come of a crossbow vs compound vs longbow 3D shoot out.

[Blakeinator2]

"Are there any posters on this topic who are are employed by, sell for, or are sponsored for crossbow manufacturers?"

I dunno why this question always comes up in these discussions but i guess its valid....wouldn't want someone just pushing a product to get sales up. I was told last year when i argued this on the ABA forum that i must be making money off of it?:rolleyes I said no(and i am not)....but now i'm thinkin i should maybe open my eyes and see if there's an opportunity here?;) Lol, i am simply argueing my opinion and man if you could ever find the thread that went off last year on the ABA forum...there were a few guys that came aboard that could educate it 10x better than i ever could. They had the data, the patience, the wording etc. etc. there were some extremely good arguments worth reading on that thread. I have more of an agitating and abrasive style....the kenny linsmen of this forum i guess.:lol

"Blake if you don't sell xbows to vertical only guys, you should, you're probably the one guy who could do it..."

I will certainly take that as a compliment...thanks.:o :D

I read alot of these very arguments and visualized the tool in my hands a whole bunch to think the way i do on this. And i'm good at visualizing things through before they happen, generally i'm aweful close. Anyhow, the first thread i ever saw on this topic was on a u.s. forum somewhere and it was a monster and very heated....much like this one. When i first started it i was against the crossbow but by the end i was starting to doubt my first impressions and had to admit i didn't really know jack about it. So i then sourced out as much info about crossbows as i could, not just the arguments about their inclusions but general chit chat (much like you'd see about compounds etc. on any archery forum) just to see if what the guys argueing 'for' it were actually being truthful.

All it took was an open mind and a ton of reading through the lines learning about the tool itself, its limitations, and the data of what happens when added in with the compounds etc. and voila....its just another bow choice we can safely add. Sure, there will be differences here and there...but very minute...as compared to the overall gain.

Thats just my opinion. I'm a born and raised Calgarian, nothin special, grew up huntin/fishin...stopped to chase girls instead for about a decade and i've been back to huntin/fishin hardcore ever since. When i was a kid i used a gun but when i got back into it after chasin the girls...the bow sports interested me the most, the leaps and bounds in technology made the bowhunting so appealing to me and now its in my blood for good. Because of its difficulty and the time/work/dedication that goes into it...i personally can't find a more 'rewarding' type of hunting. I may find the predator calling more 'fun' but certainly not more 'rewarding'. Oh, and i don't do the target thing at all, never been to any kind of a 'shoot'...bow or gun...i think anything to do with our sports is all good. I love shooting my bow and guns and do both alot, i love to know my weapons limitations and my limitations with the weapons...and work on increasing my limitations with the weapons....as ultimately i only care about hunting. Thats it. I don't care about some definition of some equipment as being the sole reason its not allowed, i don't care if it competes with it in some shooting tournament etc. I only think about this crossbow inclusion for hunting and thats it. It just makes sense to me.

In all the animals i've drawn on there is only one in 4 years staight that the crossbow would have helped me on...it was the second day of opening season on my first season with a bow and the first chance i had at a deer with a bow ever. I was so cocky shooting gophers to 40 yrds no prob all summer...that i didn't think i needed to practice with headnets/gloves etc. on....i was cocky enough that i might have mucked it up with the crossbow too? Missed my first deer by a foot, as i found out shooting the bag first thing the next morning with all the gear on. Other than that...the crossbow would not have helped me in the number of animals or the size(i've tagged out in the bowzone from my first season till now). Granted i don't hunt the same game in the same country as everyone else so i can see some of the arguments when it comes to trophy's etc. like the spot and stalk on the big mule deer etc. but their mostly draw now anyhow so...AND...i still don't see the 'draw' factor as being that big of an advantage. And...the trophy argument is a selfish one anyhow, i'd still rather see them taken by a bow of anykind than a gun...if i can be so hypocritical;) :lol .

I'm just guessing we're near the end of this particular thread? Who know's there could be some points/questions not covered yet.;)

B:D

[sheep hunter]

How many people have ever got a second shot at an animal with a vertical bow. While not common it does happen. It wouldn't happen with a crossbow. Certainly there may be the odd occasion where the odds are stacked in favour of the crossbow shooter but so too are they in favour of the vertical bow shooter and that's why harvest success remains virtually identical.

[jrs]

Every animal i've ever been within bow range of with my compound bow presented a follow up opportunity after i missed. The loud noise made by my bow usually had them pretty wound up so i didn't risk it but it would have been very possible. Hopefully i won't have the noise issue with my new bow but thats a good point why crossbows may be a little more limited. (i've missed 4 deer bowhunting, one whitetail buck at 30 yrds (jumped the string), one mulie doe at 20 yrds (i used wrong pin and shot 2 feet high) a mulie buck at 30 yrds (jumped arrow), and another mulie buck at 20 yrds that also jumped my arrow after i let it go). All besides the whitetail actually came closer trying to figure out what the noise was. I only tried another shot once, and the deer jumped the arrow a second time so i decided its not a good idea with the equiptment i had. Good point i'd think in favor of crossbows.

[Blakeinator2]

I drew twice on my biggest whitetail with a bow, was using the trophy taker original fall away at the time and for the first time the arrow skipped to the riser side of the rest and screeched....i had to let down and do it again...still nailed him and he was down in 40. So many lessons one learns in the field....as gay as it sounds i shoot a whisker bisquit...just so simple, not as quiet as i can make a trophy taker but i don't mind a little noise on the draw...i usually draw when i want the animal to stop for the shot...usually they hear something/catch some movement and stop to have a look...if they don't i bleat at them to get them to stop for the shot. Obviously this is from blinds or treestands and not on spot/stalk type hunts. And i'd go back to a trophy taker any day, i'd just get the one with the bigger forks...but they are awesome rests also, a little 'fuzzy stuff' and you can make it 100% zero noise on the draw if you need that...as an elk hunter i know told me thats the only way to go. I can't imagine giving up my whisker bisquit now.

I've seen the second shot phenom also...lots of times they have no idea whats going on and they stick around to find out. Don't miss with the crossbow as thats your one chance.

The 'draw' factor is tiny in the big picture.

[Shedcrazy]

Sorry blake but you drew me back in....I think the draw factor is huge.

Maybe from a treestand it is a none factor but on the ground it is everything. Can't even beleive you said that.

[Blakeinator2]

Lol Shed.....i was on the ground with my biggest whitetail at 30 yrds when i drew on him twice. Blind is most reliable way to do whitetails on ground imo. I stalked a whitetail doe to 18 yrds, drew behind tree, came around it and made it happen no prob also...the stalk was the hard part. Being on the ground with whitetails is a challenge that is most definitely 99% hunter forsure...the tool is a small factor. Mule deer are much easier to be on the ground with....but either way...the tool itself is a minor factor...if your good with either one then you got same odds with either one.

I've been in most situations with deer, tree's/ground etc. but the only critters i'd argue the draw is a massive factor....is coyotes. Those pesky little boogers have busted 4 out of 5 times on the draw....the deer....not a big deal man. If i thought it was then i'd say so...but i don't have trouble getting the draw. Personally i love the draw part of it, i don't think i could give up the compound for myself...there is something about pulling it back and touching it off etc. that general satisfaction about shooting a bow. But it still doesn't change my opinion on where the crossbow fits...and all the benefits that would go with that.

We can go round and round but the the stats show that whatever the differences are between the two choices(draw, weight/cumbersome, second shot etc. etc.)...they are moot as the numbers show each as effective as the other in the field....so the draw is not near the factor people first think.

B

[Blades]

this is a test to see if I can still post

[Blakeinator2]

picked a fine thread to test on and bring back to the top;) :lol

[Blades]

Well, how about that! My grey matter still works!
I have not posted for a while, but I have really enjoyed the banter on the 2 crossbow threads... to which I would like to add to and correct some terminology. First, I will tell exactly where I stand on this issue. I am an authorized dealer of Excalibur Crossbows in Alberta, however, I only sell maybe 5 in a year...mostly less, so making money is a very small driving factor for me to have crossbows in archery season.(darn, the cat is out of the bag....lol) I believe in education, so I am an instructor(with AHEIA) for hunter-training, restricted and non-restricted firearms, I instruct a "crossbow basics" course, and put on a "Crossbow Information Seminar" to any interested groups as well. The only one offered in Alberta, to the best of my knowledge. I am also(on my own free time) collecting signatures to include crossbows in archery season. BTW I hunt with a vertical bow, and of course, my guns.
For those of you that are interested in a magazine dedicated to horizontal bows, check out www.horizontalbowhunter.com
I would like to address a couple of terms that I think are 'misnomers'.
1 "Crossgun" - as Rob so nicely put it, a bow goes phhhht, a gun goes bang. A horizontal bow goes phhhht....and for those of you that are hung up on the stock thing,(the trigger is just a mechanical release) a quick history lesson is in order. Long before the firearm or cannon was invented, someone mounted a bow on a stock(horizontally), so from a historical point of view, the gun is a hand cannon mounted on a crossbow stock. Be careful what is used as a basis for comparison. And Rob is quite correct in saying that a horizontal bow does not 'kick', but jumps forward....I get asked that alot too.
2 bolt vs arrow - simple misguided transfer of terminology....an arrow has 4 basic components; nock, fletching, shaft, and some form of a point(broadhead, field, etc) A bolt is minus one of these components...the fletching. So a horizontal bow flings an arrow(be it a short one) Also see the pricing list from Excalibur...identified as 'arrows'.
I am glad to see that there is now an understanding on what a horizontal bow will and will not do as per hunting distances. I did an experiment and wrote an article on it, If anyone is interested, contact me...(maybe Rob will publish it...he he..JOKE, Rob) One thing that does bother me on this subject, is the understated fact of how much noise a horizontal bow makes on release of the string. The noise does factor in, especially when the game animal is at distances greater than 30 to 35 yds. The bulk of kills is made at under 30 yds.(in my reaserch)
How about stalking game? Pack one around all day, then come back and talk to me...I do recomend that when stalking, you can do it with the bow drawn, but refrain from nocking an arrow untill necessary.(best judgement senario) I will discuss this further if anyone wants to go there.

"guess I should ask how will bowhunters benefit from allowing them?" Let me take a stab at this....
(what follows is actually true, from Georgia stats)
Bowhunters are recruited earlier and retained longer...let me elaborate....
Kids that show interest in archery can be taken out hunting before they have the strength to draw and hold the required 40 lbs...it is a 'one shot deal', great for parents from a safety perspective. Want to teach your kids or grandkids the finer points of bow hunting? Get the kids hunting! As they mature it is natural that a bigger challenge is in order...they will move onto the vertical bow.(great recruitment, EH?) As the hunter ages,(50 +) the vertical bow gets harder to use due to injury and plain old wear and tear of getting older.(anyone know what I mean?) The perfect solution to keeping these people 'in the game' is.....you guessed it...the horizontal bow. IMO the ABA(great group BTW) is nuts not to use this to their advantage.
As for the 'disabled permit'......you have to have a upper body paralysis or missing a limb, period. AND to top it off, after the doctor gives you documented proof of your disability, it is completely up to the PERSONAL OPINION of the F&W officer on duty weather or not you get the permit. If he does not like horizontal bows, guess what?...... you are S O L. And this is a stick in my craw, because it happened to several members of my family.

Just an opinion after reading through some of the medeviel history of the crossbow,...the church banned the use of the crossbow for 2 reasons....1 it could pierce a knights armour, and 2 small hand held crossbows were considered an assassins weapon. The stigma seems to have stuck to modern day.
Poacher's weapon? hahahahaha!!! give me a break....ever try to stick one out a truck window?
The scope seems to be a point of contention.....it is usually no more than 2.5 power and is useful in light-gathering ability in low light....much like the fibre-optic pins on a vertical bow. The scope does not help to shoot further. Personal preference.
The time is well past to catagorize the horizontal bow to where it really belongs......as archery tackle.

Todd

[sharpstick]

Blades good info!
A couple questions....

What did your study find for ethical yardages for hunting with a xbow?

If you ask me the kids can shoot vertical bows from as young as four or five doing it themselves and learn way more and have more satisfaction than someone loading their xbow and pulling the trigger!
It would also teach the young ones responsibility to work up to shooting 40 lbs before going hunting. now I bet this opens up a can of worms!

Sounds like the handicap rule needs to be revised!!

second the poaching thing is it will just give them one more tool to use, the same guys will do it now with one more quiet weapon.(I guess they already can use it but it would increase where and when they could get away with it) maybe not the inside of the truck but the outside they would work just fine!!

Again I am not against crossbows, just against them in archery only seasons, much like fly only fishing streams don't allow fly rods with bait.

[Blades]

"What did your study find for ethical yardages for hunting with a xbow?"
40 yds and under for hunting, mostly due to the noise factor....do what you want for targets

"If you ask me the kids can shoot vertical bows from as young as four or five"
Which is absolutely great way to go,(I never suggested not to teach vertical) however there are lots of people that are smaller in stature (even adults) that cannot pull and hold the required 40LBS to go hunting. So I recommend giving them another option...

"It would also teach the young ones responsibility to work up to shooting 40 lbs before going hunting. now I bet this opens up a can of worms!"
Not really, in fact I would tend to agree on this point.

"Sounds like the handicap rule needs to be revised!!"
Revised?!!!? How about completely rewritten. With horizontal bows in archery season, this would be a non-issue.

"second the poaching thing is it will just give them one more tool to use, "
#1, poachers use whatever they want, regardless of it being legal or not...#2, how many instances of poaching is there with any kind of archery tackle? 'nuff said I think.

Thank-you for your questions and input, sharpstick, I respect your personal decision on horizontal bows, however, I resectfully disagree on where they belong in the regulations.

Todd

[sharpstick]

I have to clarify your poaching with archery gear comment............do you think it does not happen??
I also said poachers will use what they want, but if it is not allowed in archery seasons, it is tough to explain a bolt stuck in an animal if caught!!

Blade if an adult can't pull 40 lbs with 80% letoff to go hunting they should probably stay home as they will never get what they shoot in the truck!! I agree with some of your points but that one is stretching it.

another question, 40 yards max, "due to noise" isn't it loss of kinetic energy and poor trajectory due to the physics of the crossbow and the short heavy bolt it shoots!

[sheep hunter]

I also said poachers will use what they want, but if it is not allowed in archery seasons, it is tough to explain a bolt stuck in an animal if caught!!

So by your reasoning we should outlaw vertical bows and rifles then too? Sharpstick, I was trying to stay out of this but that was one of the most uninformed comments that I've ever heard. Poachers are poachers regardless of weapon so just leave this well enough alone and you won't look so uninformed. Certainly there are arguements on both sides for crossbows but poaching is not one of them. Quit bashing your fellow hunters....leave that to the antis.....

[Brady]

Well this discussion keeps going around in circles doesn't it??

Here's my take......when I first started hearing about the crossbow in archery I was like no way.I came to this rather ingnorantly, as I have never been around one, let alone shoot one. These last few discussions on here have been very informative, and some of the things that I thought before, I question my prior stand on this issue. I know we are all entitled to our own thoughts and beliefs, but it is coming clear to me, that some are trying to push their thoughts and beliefs on to all with innaccurate statements. To say that crossbows, if allowed into archery season, will promote poaching is very weak. I think that if someone is going to poach, they will use the tool whether it is legal or not. Kinda like saying to a murderer," you can't shoot me with that gun, it isn't registered".
Another thing that is getting to be very clear, this whole disability thing, I didn't realize it was so hard, and quite honestly, degrading to get a disability permit to use a crossbow. The decision makers of this should be ashamed of themselves.
The ABA has drawn a hard line on the crossbow issue, and I respect that, but the way they go to support their arguement sometimes leaves little to be desired IMHO.

I can't see why we couldn't support an inclusion for the crossbow, but if I were the one making this decision, I would do the studies for 5 years or so, after just to see if there is the difference that some claim. As for myself though, I think I am going to pick one of thes rigs up in a shop, and if permitted take it for a test drive, and see for myself, what shooting this medeval weapon is all about. I doubt I would buy one, as I already wave a wonderfull compound, that I have invested heavily in, but at least I would know what they are all about.

[sharpstick]

sheep and brady read my post I too said they will use whatever weapon they want it will just make it easier if xbows are allowed in archery seasons! (look at it from the enforcement side) Oh I guess sheep knows every xbow hunter will not poach!! My bad!
Brady if my comments are inaccurate prove them wrong,I am not pushing anything on anyone, just my opinion, obviously you don't like it!
if people think you can't poach with a vertical bow shake your head.

[sharpstick]

Brady as a mod you should not mis quote people, I never said it would "promote" poaching and I was not the one to bring up poaching, just adding to the comment or two before my post!!
But thanks to you and sheep for jumping on me again!! take a breath and read it again, it may make more sense to you!

sorry for the double post hit the wrong button!

[Brady]

Sharpstick, get over yourself, I never once said that it was YOU that said that. I was generalizing, as the topic of poaching has come up in these threads by a few different posters. I am just saying that it is very weak to use that as an arguement. Education can go a long way in this issue, and I have been educated quite nicely, by both sides on this thread.
I think you need to take two of them breaths, because in my opinion, you are losing ground here, in your crusade against the crossbow in the archery season. That may be just my opinion though, and not because I am a mod, it is because I am trying to look at this with open eyes.
If crossbows in the bow season, are going to mean that game populations will be decimated, then yes I would say no, but I don't see that happening, with all that has been discussed here.

[sheep hunter]

Comments like that make me sick sharpstick......

[jrs]

"Blade if an adult can't pull 40 lbs with 80% letoff to go hunting they should probably stay home as they will never get what they shoot in the truck!! I agree with some of your points but that one is stretching it"

Come on, what a stupid thing to say. Why don't you think. I know many capable adults with shoulder disabilities who cannot shoot bow even with that setup.

[Blakeinator2]

Sharpy, i would lay money that the smarter poachers will head to the bowzones first....and otherwise wait until december/january to do their thing. I'd lay money that 99% of game poached is with gun...even in bowzones. They know where and when to go to make sure its not likely where and when anyone would expect. As sick as it makes me to find the headless mule deer around town in the fall etc. and to hear all those gunshots in the night while camping in the early fall west of edmonton looking for moose not on draw with archery tackle...almost feel as though we are wasting our time...but anyhow, thats a whole different subject and it really doesn't fit with this discussion...it doesn't matter. They do what they do and we hope they get caught. Such is life. But to lump a crossbow in with it.....like i said before....it won't take anyone long to realize its effectiveness makes it a bow....and therefore most likely just as useless to a poacher.

B

[Rackmastr]

I've been reading this for a while and keeping my comments to a minimum, but Sharpstick....you were doing okay for a while until the truly ignorant comments came out...

I have no idea where you get some of your ideas about poaching, enforcement, disabilities, etc.....but you truly should be educated!

[bagwan]

Sharpstick. I'm one of those poor fellows who no longer can pull (actually hold) a bow for the practice times needed to stay confident in my abilities to bow hunt. I even bought a new bow last year hoping it would help. I cranked it down to 42 and still couldn't practice enough. Anyway a guy in Fort Sask is happy as he has a kit for 2/3 the price of new. My point is on the 40 lb statement about staying out of the woods. Kind of stupid as I took 3 deer and the wife shot an adult moose and my poor decrepit body got them all in the truck. Thank God for come-a-longs, meat saws and ingenuity. Where theres a will theres a way. Some excellent points have been made on this topic. I for one never considered a cross bow and I would certainly have to try to use one before buying as some of the above good info leaves me to believe they are not for an old fart who borrows his wifes T3 because the Sako75 is getting too heavy.. The funny thing about a bum shoulder (in my case) is that I still have lots of power in other uses, just can't hold the draw even on a modern bow.

[sharpstick]

Holy sh#t
Touched a few buttons I guess!!
Everyone can look back as I did not start the poaching thing, just added a comment! Like I said it is a very small aspect of the xbow thing but something to consider if you want to look at the whole picture!
Read the comment and it may make sense, Blades if you think 2 cases of poaching with bows in 25 years is all that has happened, you make me laugh!

Blake at least you are fun, these guys need to discover some ******ons!!

Blades do some research, without KE you don't get penetration, result less cutting. or just look at the last line of your post which is exactly what I said. (I guess I should have said heavy in relation to length)

[sheep hunter]

So I ask again sharpstick....should we ban vertical bows and rifles too????? I'm guessing they have been used in cases of poaching too. You know, since we are looking at the big picture here.

Maybe we should register long guns too....I bet that would stop domestic violence and all crimes. Geeze, I've been such an idiot...glad you clarified things for me. Stop crossbows in archery season and there will be no poaching. I can't believe the answer was in my face all this time.

Tell me again how a crossbow is a good poaching weapon. You need to get close, the animal must be tracked after it is shot, it cannot be discharged from a vehicle...???????? I can't see a lot of poachers out following blood trails but maybe you know something I don't.

Sharpstick, there are many reason for and against crossbows in archery season and I think discussing them is good for the hunting community but when hunters start calling other hunters, just because they use a different weapon, poachers, then you are doing a great disservice to all hunters. Stop this crap now as hunting doesn't need it. Man stuff like this ****es me off.

[Blades]

"do you think it does not happen??"
never said that.....In my reasearch, I have found 2 instances in the last 25 YEARS. I do not think that even qualifies, statistically.

"Blade if an adult can't pull 40 lbs with 80% letoff to go hunting they should probably stay home as they will never get what they shoot in the truck!! "
Are you goind to deny a quadrapaligic the chance to hunt? Buddies are part of hunting, doncha think?

"other question, 40 yards max, "due to noise" isn't it loss of kinetic energy and poor trajectory due to the physics of the crossbow and the short heavy bolt it shoots! "
NO. Kinetic energy is a red herring when it comes to archery, because an arrow kills by cutting, not transfer of energy to the animal. When was the last time anyone's arrow knocked over an animal, killing it on the spot? Crossbow ARROWS (see my first post) are actually typically LIGHTER than regular arrows because they ARE shorter(both are made from the same materials...aluminum, carbon,etc.) Now, simple ballistics tell us that a heavier projectile will retain energy longer than a lighter one. So the smaller arrow looses energy quicker, and arcs to the ground sooner. Judging distance becomes more and more critical after 40 yds.




Hey Brady........"As for myself though, I think I am going to pick one of thes rigs up in a shop, and if permitted take it for a test drive, and see for myself, what shooting this medeval weapon is all about."
I can help you out there...provided we are close. If you are interested, I will post my e-mail, and trust everyone to be civil with me. We can make contact, and maybe fling some arrows together.

Todd

[Blades]

"Touched a few buttons I guess!!"
Not really...I am enjoying this banter, and I try not to make it seem like personal attacks, I am just trying to respond to the facts. If anyone wants to update my stats, go for it....all I ask for is sources.

"(I guess I should have said heavy in relation to length)"
You better clarify this.....to my thinking, 2 projectiles made of the same material with the same tip,....the shorter one is always lighter.....aren't we comparing a vertical bow arrow to a horizontal bow arrow in performance? Just want to know how you are thinking.

Todd
sry for the mis-spelling on the last topic......finger slipped

[Anglinfool]

You guys are welcome to shoot mine anytime. PM me or email me at anglinfool@hotmail dot com.
I'll be puttig it up for sale fairly soon, so if you want to shoot it, let me know ASAP.

[sharpstick]

Sheep relax as often happens you are reading way more into my comment than it was meant......I did not say not allowing xbows would stop poaching.....I am not bashing other hunters as I don't class poachers as hunters!!
It seems to me you think it is impossible to poach with a xbow..or bows in general. I will pm you as I don't think a conversation like that belongs on a public forum...........why give them any ideas!

[sharpstick]

Blades a 20" bolt that weighs 450 grains, they are heavier but shorter........(440-450 seems to be the standard)
Compare to a 30 inch arrow @ 415 grains longer but lighter!(just happens to be what I shoot)

Bolts are made out of the same materials but they are more grains per inch!!

These are finished arrows with 100 grain broadheads!

[Blades]

Are you using aluminum arrows? I preferr carbon over aluminum, as carbons do not permanently bend....My 20 inch carbon arrows are only 360 gr., that is with aluminum inserts at both ends(flat alum. nock) and 100gr point. 450gr seems like an awfully heavy arrow...even for aluminum....if you know which company produces this weight for 20 inch arrows, please pass it on. Anyway, this is really a very small point to quibble over, as all extra weight does is create a faster drop rate.....over 40 yds it is easily compensated for....with any bow.

BTW, bolts do not have feathers or vanes.....I shoot arrows from all my bows.

Todd

[sharpstick]

Blades not quibbling actually curious!
I shoot cx 300 carbons 8.5 grains per inch! 415 grains total arrow, I could go to 5 grains per pound which is 350 grains but prefer the little heavier setup!


What KE do you get, just wondering as what I know about xbows is limited! Just go to cabelas and check out their selection most I saw were advertising 440-450 grains per finished bolt(thats what they call them).

[Crossbows are different I think]

Anyone on this board can take a xbow and shoot it out of their truck. Different from bows? I thinks so....

[Anglinfool]

Anyone on this board can take a xbow and shoot it out of their truck. Different from bows? I thinks so....

Haha! I'd like to see you shoot one out of your truck!
:rollin

[Rob]

Let me know how your experiment goes Xbows. Good luck!

Sharpstick, Crossbows shoot arrows, not bolts. As Blades said, there is no feathers or vanes on a bolt.

[sharpstick]

Rob in cabelas they are all refered to as bolts!! Actually everywhere I looked them up, including the actual xbow companies they are refered to as bolts. What's the big deal what they are called anyway??

[Blades]

Going back to what started this...
"another question, 40 yards max, "due to noise" isn't it loss of kinetic energy and poor trajectory due to the physics of the crossbow and the short heavy bolt it shoots!"
What is your definition of a "poor trajectory"?......then I can reply with more accuracy. Also, what are the "the physics of the crossbow" that you refer to? Because of your own words "as what I know about xbows is limited!" I have to question the source of such tidbits. Just trying to get on the same page you are on.

Todd

[sharpstick]

Blades
Why don't you just answer the question.. if you don't know no big deal!
What do you mean what are the physics............How they shoot!!!short axel to axel of the xbow, the reason you have 200lb draw weights for xbows, compared to 60-70 lb draw weights for longer axel to axel compound bows. Shorter more unstable Bolts, arrows whatever you want to call them being shot, an Arrows foc compared to a bolts foc..etc!
How could you reply more accuratly #s are #s
I actually found what I wanted on the xcaliber site, they have all the trajectory charts with kE at different yardages there !!

Blades pretty sure we will never be on the same page!!

[Blades]

"the reason you have 200lb draw weights for xbows, compared to 60-70 lb draw weights for longer axel to axel compound bows."
This is easy to exlpain....The power stroke on a horizontal bow can be 12 to 16", where as on a vertical bow it can be twice that(approx) With a longer power stroke, the arrow has more distance to achieve a given speed. With the shorter power stroke, more power is required of the limbs to achive the same arrow speed of a vertical bow with 1/2 the power.
As for the shorter arrows being unstable....(from a bench rest as I shake when standing) using the high-end excalibur Exomax(350fps) I can make a 4 to 5 inch group at 100 yds, on targets. Disclaimer:I had a 16 foot plus arrow drop at this distance...do not attempt to hunt at these distances.
The physics of both bows are very similar.....limb strength, power stroke, arrow weight...etc.
I am glad that you found the information you were after. I was just not sure why you thought the physics of horizontal bow were inferior, and I was looking for the resoning. Something for me to ponder on,...I guess.

Todd

[sharpstick]

blades I don't know how to tell you this but xbows are inferior, The physics are quite different, that is why you need a 200lb draw weight that still does not compare to a 60lb draw weight of a compound bow!!
To expand on the arrow thing, which arrow can you throw farther (by hand) a xbow bolt or a compound arrow (both same weight)? Also part of the equation!
I am also assuming that your 100 yard shots are with field points!

[Blades]

OK Sharpstick.....if horizontal bows are so inferior, what is the big deal in letting them in archery season?

"that is why you need a 200lb draw weight that still does not compare to a 60lb draw weight of a compound bow!!"
Oh, and I already explained this point in a previous post....Physics for both are similar....

Todd

[sharpstick]

Blades you don't get it!
They both shoot with limbs and a string but the physics is way different.....I am tired of trying to explain this!
It is also the reason trajectory and KE are different but I won't even get into that!

[sheep hunter]

Crossbows are inefficient for a number of reasons and yes, greatly increased draw weights are required to get the same velocities as compound bows. But, you shoot the same weight arrow at the same speed and the downrange ballistics will be similar no matter what pull weight it required to get them going at that speed. Arrow speed and arrow weight is what matters...not draw weight.

[Blades]

"Blades you don't get it!
They both shoot with limbs and a string but the physics is way different"
Evidently I don't get.....something....but do tell me how the laws of physics change from a horizontal to a vertical bow,..mass, enertia, velocity, all are constants that apply to both bows. I have already addressed trajectory...I really do want to know how you think the horizontal bow is inferior,...
Just a general thought, but I first noticed that the resistace to the horizontal bow was because they were 'too accurate' or 'too fast' or 'too much like a gun'. Now I find someone(this is NOT meant as a personal attack, sharpstick) who says that the horizontal bow is not as good as vertical bows. From my point of view, this is amusing.
"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"
I will stick out my hand and say,..maybe we should agree to diagree, then grab our favorite rifles and go shoot some 'yotes.

Todd

[Rob]

Lots of good information here so I will stick it to the top for awhile.

Rob

[sharpstick]

Blades I NEVER SAID THE XBOW WAS INFERIOR!! if I did i am sure someone will show me!!lol
I am having a discussion about the differences between the two. About trajectorys, compounds do have better #s although out to 40 yards, which is most peoples max, they are relatively the same. (at least the new powerful high draw weight xbows)
Sheep you are correct about velocity and weight, although efficiency of the weapon is a big one! ( hence the large draw weights for xbows) where it also gets different is length of arrow, length of fletch, height of fletch, foc etc. Way to many other factors but those are most of the big ones! Each one has an effect on down range performance no matter what fps it started at!

[Blades]

"Blades I NEVER SAID THE XBOW WAS INFERIOR!! if I did i am sure someone will show me!!lol"


"blades I don't know how to tell you this but xbows are inferior, The physics are quite different,"

(chuckle,chuckle)Consider yourself shown. So tell us again why the horizontal bow should not be classed as archery tackle in Alberta?......you like hunting 'yotes?

Todd

[sheep hunter]

Sharpstick, I tried to make this simple earlier but you seem to have missed the point. The design or inefficiency of the crossbow doen't affect the kenetic energy or trajectory at all. It all comes down to arrow speed and arrow weight. Yes it requires much more draw weight to get an arrow going the same speed as a compound bow but once the arrow is in the air it doesn't matter how it was launched. You seem to be missing a big piece of the puzzle. Yes the arrow length will play a role as will size of fletching but it's minor in comparison to weight and speed. Let me put it simply. Shoot the same arrow at the same speed out of a compound bow and and a crossbow and the trajectory and energy will be identical.

Also, larger fletching like that found on many vertical bow arrows will slow their speed more rapidly than an arrow with smaller fletching.

[Blades]

I think you hit the nail on the head, sheephunter.

Todd

[rocanada]

Anyone who has never shot a crossbow should go try one out,then you can see it's limitations and advatages ,not going to get in to that , all aspects of that have been stated already ,my self I can no longer pull back a bow with my right arm and learning to shoot left when your right handed is almost imposible.If I can't use my crossbow durning archery season how about a draw locking system on a vert bow? That would allow anyone with a physical disability to participate in the archery season.

[Blades]

No, rocanada, it won't. Putting a draw lock on a vertical bow wil put it in the same catagory as a horizontal bow.

Todd

[sharpstick]

Sheep and blades I ask you why then does my pin gap barely change . 25,40,50,60.
Not that I hunt at those ranges but I like to practice at the long ranges. Even 60 to 70 is not much larger of a gap than 40 to 50 yards.

If I read the xbow trajectory charts right, at 40 to 50 and 50 to 60 yards your pin gaps will be much larger than 30 to 40 yards. Obviously the xbow is slowing down also meaning the KE is going down as well!!

Blades by inferior I meant it's efficiency is inferior(how it launches the arrow), hence the 200lb draw weight, saying the same things just differently. I will go and say that it also does not have the range of a compound. Used ethically the xbow is a fine weapon.

None of that is why they should not be allowed in archery season, or the fact that some want to call it a bow, maybe we just need to re-name it vertical bow season!!lol

[sheep hunter]

It all depends on arrow speed and weight...shoot the identical arrow from a crossbow and compound at the same speed and the trajectory will be identical. I don't know how much simpler I can make it. It's very simple physics...not my opinion!

Due to numerous factors it takes more draw weight to achieve the same arrow speed with a crossbow but once the arrow is flying it doesn't matter how it was launched.

[sharpstick]

Sheep then what you are saying is the xcalibur trajectory charts are wrong. My compound does not drop off that fast!!


Think of it this way, what could you throw farther a 300 grain 30 inch arrow or a 300 grain 20 inch arrow? I would put money on the 30" If this wasn't true they would make javelins much shorter!!

I may be wrong but length of arrow is more of a factor than you think, add foc as well into the equation. Are xbow bolts also thicker (diameter) meaning more wind resistance?? just asking? no need to take these questions the wrong way!!

[sheep hunter]

No question that all others things being equal that a shorter arrow will decelerate faster than a longer one but that's a function of the arrow not what launched it. I never said any different.

[Blades]

"Sheep and blades I ask you why then does my pin gap barely change "
"If I read the xbow trajectory charts right, at 40 to 50 and 50 to 60 yards your pin gaps will be much larger than 30 to 40 yards. Obviously the xbow is slowing down also meaning the KE is going down as well!!"
The answer is simple....basic balistics.....a heavier projectile keeps its energy longer than a lighter projectile. Generally, the horizontal bow launches a smaller arrow than a vertical bow, so energy loss is quicker...thus the trajectory is more of an arc, resulting in sight pins being farther apart(after 35 to 40 yds)

"I meant it's efficiency is inferior(how it launches the arrow), hence the 200lb draw weight"
Again, basic physics.....on your vertical bow, say your power stroke(draw length) is 28 to 30 inches, and limb strength is 60 to 70 lbs to achieve arrow speed of 280 to 290 fps. Now to acieve the same arrow speed on a horizontal bow that has a short power stroke(draw length) of 14 inches, you will need more powerful limbs......'about' 2 to 1 ratio.....works out to approx 150lbs....and this is the point I think you have missed, with a shorter power stroke(draw length) you need more powerful limbs to achieve the same arrow speed(and KE) as a less powerful bow with a longer power stroke(draw length).
The principal is the same wether or not the limbs are mounted vertical or horizontal. I have seen vertical bows with shorter power strokes(they had draw locks) and much more powerful and shorter limbs.
I did explain this before, but I hope that I have clarified these points.

Todd

[sharpstick]

Sheep, your post said compound and crossbow trajectories of the same speed and weight would be the same.they just would not be is all I said.

[Blades]

Why would 2 projectiles of the same weight and speed not have the same trajectory? If that was the case, you would never hit the same place twice with any bow. Physics do not change because a different bow is used.

Todd

[sharpstick]

Blades I have been trying to explain this to you for the past two pages,
2 projectiles of the same weight and speed WILL have different trajectories when comparing xbow bolt to arrows because of
1. length of projectile (the big one)
2. Diameter (wind resistance)
3. surface area of projectile
4. length of fletch
5. height of fletch
and more but feel free to google it yourself!

You hit consistently with your bow because you use the same weight arrow, same length, same fletch, same point, etc every time!!!

So to answer your question physics do change with what bow is used. Even when comparing different compound bows!

[sheep hunter]

So to answer your question physics do change with what bow is used. Even when comparing different compound bows!


Wrong, wrong, wrong. The only variable is the arrow. Yes shorter arrows will decelerate faster but it doesn't matter what gets them going that fast. I will say once more.....shoot the exact same arrow (weight, length, fletch) out of a crossbow and a compound bow at the same speed and they will have identical trajectories. Crap, if you could throw the arrow or shoot it out of a cannon at the same speed it would have the same trajectory. Yes, a crossbow arrow has a different trajectory than an arrow shot out of a compound bow but that's only because the arrows are different. The arrow is the variable, not the means of propulsion. This is Grade 9 physics sharpstick. Not trying to be a dick here but this is pretty simple stuff.

Your post above was 100% on the money until you added that last sentence.

[Blades]

Agreed sheep hunter.......Why don't we boil all this down to 1 question,....which bow is better, vertical or horizontal? I think the answer is unique to the person asking.....which brings us back full circle to the original question of why not let horizontal bow into archery season? So far I have not seen any good facts to keeping it out.

Todd

[Darrell]

what is the point to to thread anyways?

[sheep hunter]

To get people's opinions as to whether crossbows belong in archery season or not.

[sharpstick]

you said a crossbow and a compound would have the same trajectories given same weight and velocity and I said no because of length!! I didn't realize you shoot 29 inch arrows out of your crossbow!
The only variable is the arrow.......................So if I shoot my arrow out of your bow it will fly the exact same as out of my bow.......................I don't think so!!
I said different physics even comparing different compound bows because every bow will shoot the same arrows at a different speed meaning the PHYSICS of each bow would be different! SO again THE PHYSICS OF EACH BOW MEANING THE NUMBERS would be different! Or here, maybe the performance, or trajectorys of each bow would be different!!!!!!!! Physics is not just how the weapon shoots, some seem to be stuck on that!
Blade seemed to miss the length of arrow equivalent in the equation! I was just trying to clear that up!

[sheep hunter]

I give up sharpstick but you might want to look up the definition of physics!

[sharpstick]

The science of energy and matter and their interactions, why do you give up?
Is any of what I said not true??

[sheep hunter]

I think we are on the same page sharpstick other than your statement about physics changing with the bow. The physics change with the arrow only. Okay, I said I wouldn't do this but I will once more. Shoot the identical arrow (weight, length, fletch) out of a crossbow, compound bow, tank, mortar, battleship gun, sling shot at the same speed and it will have the same trajectory.

Change the arrow length, weight or fletch and yes trajectory changes.

[sharpstick]

at the same speed yes, but every bow will shoot at different speeds, crossbows use smaller bolts(arrows) etc.
Change any of the variables and the trajectory changes.
same page different paragraph!!lol
see you at the sportsman show!

[209x50cal]

at the same speed yes, but every bow will shoot at different speeds,
ENOUGH ALREADY!
You are going on and on over nothing here, as you point out you can have large differences between compound bows using the same technology.
Ask any of the serious hand loaders here, like Dick 284, no two guns will shoot the SAME load equally. I load for a lot of guns and people and I have seen as much as 180 FPS difference between identical makes, models and cal shooting the same batch of hand loads.
I'm not sure why the efficiency between bows became important to you in this argument perhaps you could remind me?

[sheep hunter]

Come on Rich....let us play.

I still think your missing a piece of the puzzle sharpstick. There is nothing preventing me from shooting a longer arrow out of my crossbow and I can do that at higher velocities than many compound bows produce. I launch that arrow out of my crossbow at a higher velocity than a compound bow and I'm going to have a better trajectory.

I'm actually not sure where you are going with all this sharpstick but if you are saying that crossbows don't have sufficient speed and energy....you'd have to eliminate every long bow, recurve and many compounds from archery season too.

[sharpstick]

Nope, actually was just discussing the differences between the two with what they actually shoot!(I wanted to know why the two were different at longer ranges!)
Rich, save your frustration and don't open the thread!!
I have found some interesting info, and a great arrow, KE, trajectory calculator in my searches.
TJ if a longer arrow would be better why is it not used? this is an honest question.

[sheep hunter]

The shorter arrows are more accurate out of the crossbow.

[sharpstick]

thanks.

[Tree Guy]

Cool thread guys! That was a good read.