Alberta Trappers Association proposed DAO/MOU

[redgreen]

Hello there to all fellow trappers and outdoors enthusiasts!!! More will become clear when the ATA has the annual Presidents meeting in April, but I would like to start a discussion on the proposed MOU with SRD. It had initially been voted on by 85% of a small group of trappers at last years AGM in Grande Prairie to proceed forward with the DAO concept (self governing such as APOS). Now it has changed a bit as I understand it to beginning with some form of MOU. I'd like to hear what other people think on this. Should it be voted on again considering the change in course? This is a very important issue and it would be great to have good response. There are other issues to discuss as well that will have to be discussed.....should we continue to have the Westlock store? Should there be just an Administrative Facility instead? Come on and reply on this or any other issues you feel are important!!!

[sourdough doug]

I wonder if there will be any response from the real grass roots or just from those looking out for themselves and close friends. You are right, there are and always were far to many issues that had never been resolved. A lot of the smoke and mirror scenario. Maybe here, things can be discussed and some smoke removed from the mirror.

[redgreen]

I wonder if there will be any response from the real grass roots or just from those looking out for themselves and close friends. You are right, there are and always were far to many issues that had never been resolved. A lot of the smoke and mirror scenario. Maybe here, things can be discussed and some smoke removed from the mirror.

Hi Doug, I hope this thread will get some peoples ideas circulating, I am not sure how many trappers visit here but we are about to find out!!! It would be nice to go to the Presidents meeting with some different ideas and views. I hope you will be able to make the AGM down South this year...there are some great prizes and auction items as well as competitions, demonstrations etc....it's going to be a great event and I'm sure looking forward to it!!!

[Brian Bildson]

Redgreen I'm glad you're interested in the DAO. It's no secret that I'm an advocate for the DAO, and to be honest can't figure out why any trapper would be against it. I'll try to explain to you what is happening as I believe you're confusing the DAO / MOU with each other.

The first step in the process is the actual setting up of the DAO. Basically this is an non-government "administrative structure" that the government delegates certain administrative duties to. The exact duties are detailed in MOU's (memorandium of understanding) or program agreements. The two DAO's that most outdoorsmen are familiar with are APOS and ACA.

The ATA model will not deal with enforcement but will be more pro-active in the day to day activities of trappers. I can see cabin compliance, license renewals, management plans etc. being administered by the ATA. However I am not involved in any way with putting the DAO together so the exact details are not known to me yet.

The only reason I've heard trappers speak up so far against the DAO is financial cost to themselves, and fears by inactive trappers they're going to lose their traplines. Perhaps there are other valid reasons and I'm open to discussing them.

By the way Redgreen your comments about the vote in Grande Prairie are disrespectful to the trappers who took the time to attend. Throughout the history of the ATA decisions of this type were resolved by those in attendence at the AGM, and not by proxies. Are you saying all those decisions, which were just as important in their day, are BS?

In closing here's my position. If you are against the DAO because you know what it is, and what it'll do, I respect you. If you have no opinion yet but want to get informed, I respect you.

But If you're against it because your buddy told you to be, or you're too tight to pay what is probably one days pay to support a DAO, or you're scared you'll lose a trapline you haven't trapped in 5 years, or you're against it because you don't like the ATA Board, or you hate trappers, well... we don't need folks like that in the ATA.

Personally I'm hoping for the best because I'm a big believer in the power of common sense. I believe the vast majority of trappers support the DAO. How can being in the driver's seat be bad for us?

[redgreen]

Redgreen I'm glad you're interested in the DAO. It's no secret that I'm an advocate for the DAO, and to be honest can't figure out why any trapper would be against it. I'll try to explain to you what is happening as I believe you're confusing the DAO / MOU with each other.

The first step in the process is the actual setting up of the DAO. Basically this is an non-government "administrative structure" that the government delegates certain administrative duties to. The exact duties are detailed in MOU's (memorandium of understanding) or program agreements. The two DAO's that most outdoorsmen are familiar with are APOS and ACA.

The ATA model will not deal with enforcement but will be more pro-active in the day to day activities of trappers. I can see cabin compliance, license renewals, management plans etc. being administered by the ATA. However I am not involved in any way with putting the DAO together so the exact details are not known to me yet.

The only reason I've heard trappers speak up so far against the DAO is financial cost to themselves, and fears by inactive trappers they're going to lose their traplines. Perhaps there are other valid reasons and I'm open to discussing them.

By the way Redgreen your comments about the vote in Grande Prairie are disrespectful to the trappers who took the time to attend. Throughout the history of the ATA decisions of this type were resolved by those in attendence at the AGM, and not by proxies. Are you saying all those decisions, which were just as important in their day, are BS?

In closing here's my position. If you are against the DAO because you know what it is, and what it'll do, I respect you. If you have no opinion yet but want to get informed, I respect you.

But If you're against it because your buddy told you to be, or you're too tight to pay what is probably one days pay to support a DAO, or you're scared you'll lose a trapline you haven't trapped in 5 years, or you're against it because you don't like the ATA Board, or you hate trappers, well... we don't need folks like that in the ATA.

Personally I'm hoping for the best because I'm a big believer in the power of common sense. I believe the vast majority of trappers support the DAO. How can being in the driver's seat be bad for us?

I think my confusion with the DAO/MOU is, unless I am mistaken, the ATA subsequent to the vote in GP proceeded directly to a DAO position with the Government. As I understand it, a formal proposal was written by Jim Allen and submitted to SRD. Now, correct me if I am wrong, the ATA has backed up a bit (Idon't know if the original proposal was flawed or?) and begun to write up an MOU instead, and I do not know the time frame for submission. I guess some clarification is needed here.

I think there is some worry about not just the financial cost to trappers but the ability to sustain funding with consideration to the World financial meltdown that is still in progress and all sectors tightening their belts. It would be a great catastrophe to get up and running and find out funding for future years is in jeapordy. For myself I would like to see a 5/10 year business plan for funding/expenditures etc. before I would be comfortable proceeding. I'm sure these things have all been considered but I would like to see a formal plan circulated to membership.

I don't feel I was disrespectful to attendees at the AGM in GP. I was there. I don't think my comment of 85% of a small group of trappers voted in favour of the DAO is disrespectful at all. It was a small group considering the total membership and I have heard the comparison used that this is how the people of Alberta elect their MLA's etc. but you usually don't have to drive 3/4 of the way across Alberta to vote for your MLA. Some people just can't make it and I feel they shouldn't be excluded. Also and you can correct me if I am wrong, there used to be proxy voting in years past. One of the older members of our Local told me that, so at this time I can't verify it 100% but for me I would like to see it returned. There are other organizations that have proxy voting such as FNAWS. What is the downside to proxy voting?

Also at this time I would like to bring up the store in Westlock. I sure do thank the anonymous donor for donating over 200K to a new building. This is some kind of generosity considering the shakey financial times we are in. However I understand the ATA has purchased a Commercial lot in Westlock at a real good price and an architech has drawn up the plans and given a cost of around $500,000.00. Boy, I know the present store is in terrible shape and could even be considered a hazard we do need a new facility, but I would question spending that kind of money on a store that as far as I know doesn't make any money. I would like to see a smaller version with no store as an Administration/Education Facility... or rent something. Get out of the supply and fur shipping business....there are plenty of private companies trying to make a go of it already in that business. I don't think we need a two-storey building with an elevator, even if close to half the money has been generously donated.

Anyway, what do I think of the MOU/DAO....not sure yet because I haven't seen a formal plan or timeline. When I see that my decision will be easy. I have never said I was against a DAO.

I hope nobody gets huffy and emotional about my comments. If you can't ask questions and discuss things without causing people to fly off the handle and get defensive it is a sad case.:wave:

[bullgetter]

I am still fairly new to the trapping game but try to be involved as possible. I love to trap but if we do not do something and try to protect ourselves I can see trapping in Alberta gone in the next decade.
The vote in GP was to persue and develop a proposal to form a DAO. It may not even happen and a MOU may be the best option. I thank all those who made it to GP to vote. I did not make it myself as I had an archery tournament I helped put on. I respect the outcome of the vote and feel it was fair.
I feel there is a good portion of trappers that wish to stick their heads in the sand and hope this will all blow over. Trappers in Alberta all need to get involved now to maintain there way of life. At our local meetings I call the same membership list every time before a meeting to let them know. The same 10-12 people are the only ones that ever show up. I feel these individuals have a vested interest in keeping trapping in Alberta and want to help in the fight. If the government had there way there would be no traplines, no cabins, no trails, and no pesky trapper to get in there way!
As to the store in Westlock I believe we need it. Alot of our membership joins because of the ability to ship fur from the store. A new building is needed and here in Alberta $500,000 does not get you much. It would be great if they set up a mini museum showing the history of trapping in Alberta and all the furs for the kids. I hope a new building will also show the people of the province that trapping is here in Alberta and here to stay!

[redgreen]

I am still fairly new to the trapping game but try to be involved as possible. I love to trap but if we do not do something and try to protect ourselves I can see trapping in Alberta gone in the next decade.
The vote in GP was to persue and develop a proposal to form a DAO. It may not even happen and a MOU may be the best option. I thank all those who made it to GP to vote. I did not make it myself as I had an archery tournament I helped put on. I respect the outcome of the vote and feel it was fair.
I feel there is a good portion of trappers that wish to stick their heads in the sand and hope this will all blow over. Trappers in Alberta all need to get involved now to maintain there way of life. At our local meetings I call the same membership list every time before a meeting to let them know. The same 10-12 people are the only ones that ever show up. I feel these individuals have a vested interest in keeping trapping in Alberta and want to help in the fight. If the government had there way there would be no traplines, no cabins, no trails, and no pesky trapper to get in there way!
As to the store in Westlock I believe we need it. Alot of our membership joins because of the ability to ship fur from the store. A new building is needed and here in Alberta $500,000 does not get you much. It would be great if they set up a mini museum showing the history of trapping in Alberta and all the furs for the kids. I hope a new building will also show the people of the province that trapping is here in Alberta and here to stay!

Thanks for your response, I hope we will get many more!! As far as protecting ourselves, Bill 201 sure seems a strong message to preserve hunting fishing and trapping for the future. Yes there are alot of appethetic people out there....not only some trappers, most organizations have volunteer problems and attendance problems. Please read Minister Morton's opening blurb in the trapping regulations. It seems to me to be very sincere. I do not believe for a minute that the Govt. wants to completely wipe out the trapping industry in Alberta. I know there is a vision of a brand new building and interpretive centre, and I think that's great, but realizing the economy sucks and recovery may be a long ways away I think we should hold off and like I said before either rent some administrative space or build a smaller version of the proposed building to house administration and education. As for the vote, however the numbers are skewed it does not represent 85% of the ATA membership. If this is what the Govt. is being told then that's just not right. I will find this out shortly. Are First Nations trappers going to be under this DAO? Well I'm off to the trapline to finish off a very sucessful wolf season..I hope there are five pages of responses when I get back!!!

[Brian Bildson]

Red I see where your concerns arise, and they are valid on some points. However if we stick to the DAO and forget about buildings and such ( take it up with the ATA executive would be more productive) perhaps we can make the picture clearer for trappers who are reading this.

Why not scrap the term DAO & MOU for now. Let's talk about the concept behind trapper self management, because at the end of the day that's what this is all abou , regardless of the title.

I agree the present gov. is not anti-trapping, which is why now is the right time to strike this deal. We can enshrine our right to exist as an organization and ensure trapping remains on the landscape by becoming part of the system.

Much has been said about DAO's but I've seen two in action. APOS and the ACA. I haven't spoken to an APOS member who is not supportive. There are some ex members of previous outfitters organizations that complain about APOS, but that's because APOS is in the drivers seat and now has the power. Exactly where the ATA needs to be.

As for the ACA I have another thread going defending it, so I'll just say this. The ACA is unique in North America. Where else do a non government group made up mostly of hunters and anglers get funds to advance conservation. You can complain about how the money is spent but you can't argue that it hasn't been effective in getting funds and being part of the decision making process.

As for funding the DAO it's an non-issue to me. I've done enough, and seen enough, business plans to know this can be easily solved. Yes a trapper will have to pay more and these are tough times for some but I suspect we could all find $500. I''d also be supportive of an extra fee on my license to help fund the license cost for someone who could not afford it.

As for First Nations I believe the door is open. I've had conversations with Treaty 8 reps who tell me their issue is not with the ATA but rather the government. They feel if they align with another organization i.e ATA they may set a precident. They want to deal with the government "nation to nation". I can't fault their reasoning.

Good luck on the wolves

[bullgetter]

Thanks for your response, I hope we will get many more!! As far as protecting ourselves, Bill 201 sure seems a strong message to preserve hunting fishing and trapping for the future. Yes there are alot of appethetic people out there....not only some trappers, most organizations have volunteer problems and attendance problems. Please read Minister Morton's opening blurb in the trapping regulations. It seems to me to be very sincere. I do not believe for a minute that the Govt. wants to completely wipe out the trapping industry in Alberta. I know there is a vision of a brand new building and interpretive centre, and I think that's great, but realizing the economy sucks and recovery may be a long ways away I think we should hold off and like I said before either rent some administrative space or build a smaller version of the proposed building to house administration and education. As for the vote, however the numbers are skewed it does not represent 85% of the ATA membership. If this is what the Govt. is being told then that's just not right. I will find this out shortly. Are First Nations trappers going to be under this DAO? Well I'm off to the trapline to finish off a very sucessful wolf season..I hope there are five pages of responses when I get back!!!

Bill 201 is the best thing this government has done in 20 years! Unfortunately we are still small potatoes in the scheme of things. We need every trapper in Alberta to join the ATA so we have a stronger voice. It is my wish to see every trapper automatically become a member when they buy there licence each year.
As with any club or organization 5% of the members do 95% of the work and we are no different. I was in Halfords this fall and there was 2 trappers talking about the DAO and the vote. Their banter grew into heated complaining of the ATA and the executive. I hope these fellas make it to there locals meetings and vent there opinions there.
I see our executive as a passionate group of people who are willing to put in the time and even there own money into protecting something we all love. I can not find any fault in what they are doing. I'm just glad they are doing something.
Hope you do well on the wolves. I pulled everything mid-February but wish I had something out there to check.

[Brian Bildson]

Anyone who sits on a Board or executive has to have thick skin. However a certain amount of debate is healthy for any organization obviously, but what I detest is "sore losers"

If you make your case, and the others decide to carry on with a different course, suck it up move on. To keep bringing it back to the table is BS. If you have lots of support for your idea you'll carry the day, and someone else will have to move on.

Or even worse keep quiet during all the investigating and discussion on a topic. Ignore your magazines articles about the subject. Don't provide any feedback to your local about the subject. Just complain instead after others have done all the work.

And RedGreen I ain't saying that's you because I don't know you, but I ain't saying it isn't you either.

[packhuntr]

What ever you guys do, dont grenade the store!!!:lol: Its a great thing, too bad you dont have a couple more scattered throughout the province. Sorry for barging in like that fellas.

[redgreen]

Red I see where your concerns arise, and they are valid on some points. However if we stick to the DAO and forget about buildings and such ( take it up with the ATA executive would be more productive) perhaps we can make the picture clearer for trappers who are reading this.

Why not scrap the term DAO & MOU for now. Let's talk about the concept behind trapper self management, because at the end of the day that's what this is all abou , regardless of the title.

I agree the present gov. is not anti-trapping, which is why now is the right time to strike this deal. We can enshrine our right to exist as an organization and ensure trapping remains on the landscape by becoming part of the system.

Much has been said about DAO's but I've seen two in action. APOS and the ACA. I haven't spoken to an APOS member who is not supportive. There are some ex members of previous outfitters organizations that complain about APOS, but that's because APOS is in the drivers seat and now has the power. Exactly where the ATA needs to be.

As for the ACA I have another thread going defending it, so I'll just say this. The ACA is unique in North America. Where else do a non government group made up mostly of hunters and anglers get funds to advance conservation. You can complain about how the money is spent but you can't argue that it hasn't been effective in getting funds and being part of the decision making process.

As for funding the DAO it's an non-issue to me. I've done enough, and seen enough, business plans to know this can be easily solved. Yes a trapper will have to pay more and these are tough times for some but I suspect we could all find $500. I''d also be supportive of an extra fee on my license to help fund the license cost for someone who could not afford it.

As for First Nations I believe the door is open. I've had conversations with Treaty 8 reps who tell me their issue is not with the ATA but rather the government. They feel if they align with another organization i.e ATA they may set a precident. They want to deal with the government "nation to nation". I can't fault their reasoning.

Good luck on the wolves


Hi Brian, I just got back from my line and sure was disappointed in the amount of response here, and possible new ideas being bounced around for discussion.

The greater disappointment, however, was reading your response above. You should consider going into politics at some level. In your response there is nothing but generic rhetoric that doesn't clarify or solve any of the points brought up. Please try again.:huh:

As for the ACA I think it is a great organization and there are alot of projects etc. accomplished that contribute to outdoor enthusiasts. I truly can't imagine having it dismantled.

As for APOS, it has run somewhat effectively for a period of time but I understand it may be in financial trouble. Again I bring up sustained funding and having a concrete business plan on paper.

[redgreen]

Anyone who sits on a Board or executive has to have thick skin. However a certain amount of debate is healthy for any organization obviously, but what I detest is "sore losers"

If you make your case, and the others decide to carry on with a different course, suck it up move on. To keep bringing it back to the table is BS. If you have lots of support for your idea you'll carry the day, and someone else will have to move on.

Or even worse keep quiet during all the investigating and discussion on a topic. Ignore your magazines articles about the subject. Don't provide any feedback to your local about the subject. Just complain instead after others have done all the work.

And RedGreen I ain't saying that's you because I don't know you, but I ain't saying it isn't you either.

Brian, this must have been written later in the evening. It as well doesn't make any sense and I see a level of somewhat restrained emotion coming out of you that doesn't belong in a discussion and it is very counter-productive.:huh:

See you at the next President's meeting!:wave:

[redgreen]

What ever you guys do, dont grenade the store!!!:lol: Its a great thing, too bad you dont have a couple more scattered throughout the province. Sorry for barging in like that fellas.

Well maybe it will be the next Franchise!! LOL All kidding aside please join in and comment on any of the topics here it is very much welcomed. Just wondered if you were a trapper either resident or non-resident? Even if you are not, or don't have an ATA membership consider getting one. Also consider coming to the ATA AGM, trade show and banquet...there will be displays, demonstartions etc.that would also be of interest to other outdoor enthusiates!! There is a sticky with just the basic details on this trapping forum.

[Brent Watson]

Just some general info first. Am a junior partner on a line SW of Grande Prairie. Have been involved in organizations for 30 years (AFGA, Alberta Bowhunters Assoc, ATA - member of a whole pile more) not only as a member but in an executive role in various capacities. I am currently in my fourth year as president of the ABA and will serve 2 more.
I attended the trappers convention last year in GP both as a member concerned about where trapping is and was headed. I also came as ABA President and we had our booth at the trade show. SUPER convention by the way!!
I have a real problem with how a lot of things play out - from being an active player in many issues - both as ABA president and as a general member. Far too often the most complaining comes from those who have done the least research in the issue at hand. They can relate many coffee shop/bar/back room details but very little of the real facts. They get their buddies all fired up with their interpretations which just get farther from the truth as things move along.
As an executive member I guess it is our job to try and educate these people to the truthes - but when they don't listen, don't take the time to at least get the facts themselves, etc it is hard to make any headway at all. When they feel like the executive/organization is not agreeing with their interpretation/viewpoint, then it is the group who is wrong, has an agenda, selfish, not listening to their members, etc.
If anyone has a problem with how things are done, there are annual elections every year at the local and provincial level. Build your case and run. Get involved. Make a difference.
I have had the privelage of working with many of the ATA exec in my role as ABA President and it is very evident to me that these people ARE working for the betterment of trapping in Alberta. We were so very close to having trapping changed forever but now we can look forward to a brighter future - only through the hard, unselfish work of a few people. The powers that be in government are on our side - for now. We have a Minister who is very in tune with hunting and trapping. This is a rarety!! We have senior people who also hunt and trap and understand what we are all about. BUT -- the political landscape is changing and it is changing fast. Many of these people will not be around in the next few years -- they will be retiring. Many of the new people coming into these positions DO NOT hunt or trap. A new minister may know nothing about trapping -- like many before Mr. Morton. We have a Parks ministry whose mandate seems to be to "preserve, protect" and does NOT include hunting and trapping in it's vision. It has the support of a lot of other key government people. We are on thin ice. The timing is right for us as trappers to have a hand in our own destiny - we have a chance to help ourselves. If we don't seize the moment we are done!!
There has been a lot made of (whining in my mind) the vote in GP that saw 85% of the attendees vote in favor of moving ahead with the DAO. Lots saying it doesn't represent the total membership, doesn't represent the total trappers views. REMEMBER - the world is run by those who show up!! There was enough info circulated that should have at least made trappers think that they should come and see what this issue was really about, that things are serious enough that they need now to take a more active interest in what is going on, with something that is a passion to them. You will NEVER get 100% of any group, of any interest to come to anyhting or even get involved enough to make an "informed" decision. I would love if all the 1100 members of the ABA would show up to our AGM and help the rest of us fight some of these battles. I would love if the 15000 bowhunters of Alberta would join the ABA and strengthen our position with government and the antis. It is no different with any other organization. The governments of the world recognize these different groups because they have done a great job in the past in representing the majority of their members, the majority of their interest group. The system would be in utter kaos if we didn't and just had a bunch of individuals showing up to a meeting yelling about something that they had no information/facts on. Happens too much as it is.
I will rely on those people who I have elected into position to make the decisions they feel is right for me and the organziation, for the future of my passion (be it bowhunting or trapping). If I think they are not right I will make my case - based on research and fact. If I don't think they are doing a good enough job, I'll run on my own platform against them. But I will NOT bad mouth them or the group because of my own ignorance on something. I WILL encourage everyone to get the facts, try and understand the BIG PICTURE here. The days where we could just go to the bush and forget about the rest of the world are over. We (as outdoor users in general) have to become a more active player or we are in huge trouble!!

[redgreen]

Just some general info first. Am a junior partner on a line SW of Grande Prairie. Have been involved in organizations for 30 years (AFGA, Alberta Bowhunters Assoc, ATA - member of a whole pile more) not only as a member but in an executive role in various capacities. I am currently in my fourth year as president of the ABA and will serve 2 more.
I attended the trappers convention last year in GP both as a member concerned about where trapping is and was headed. I also came as ABA President and we had our booth at the trade show. SUPER convention by the way!!
I have a real problem with how a lot of things play out - from being an active player in many issues - both as ABA president and as a general member. Far too often the most complaining comes from those who have done the least research in the issue at hand. They can relate many coffee shop/bar/back room details but very little of the real facts. They get their buddies all fired up with their interpretations which just get farther from the truth as things move along.
As an executive member I guess it is our job to try and educate these people to the truthes - but when they don't listen, don't take the time to at least get the facts themselves, etc it is hard to make any headway at all. When they feel like the executive/organization is not agreeing with their interpretation/viewpoint, then it is the group who is wrong, has an agenda, selfish, not listening to their members, etc.
If anyone has a problem with how things are done, there are annual elections every year at the local and provincial level. Build your case and run. Get involved. Make a difference.
I have had the privelage of working with many of the ATA exec in my role as ABA President and it is very evident to me that these people ARE working for the betterment of trapping in Alberta. We were so very close to having trapping changed forever but now we can look forward to a brighter future - only through the hard, unselfish work of a few people. The powers that be in government are on our side - for now. We have a Minister who is very in tune with hunting and trapping. This is a rarety!! We have senior people who also hunt and trap and understand what we are all about. BUT -- the political landscape is changing and it is changing fast. Many of these people will not be around in the next few years -- they will be retiring. Many of the new people coming into these positions DO NOT hunt or trap. A new minister may know nothing about trapping -- like many before Mr. Morton. We have a Parks ministry whose mandate seems to be to "preserve, protect" and does NOT include hunting and trapping in it's vision. It has the support of a lot of other key government people. We are on thin ice. The timing is right for us as trappers to have a hand in our own destiny - we have a chance to help ourselves. If we don't seize the moment we are done!!
There has been a lot made of (whining in my mind) the vote in GP that saw 85% of the attendees vote in favor of moving ahead with the DAO. Lots saying it doesn't represent the total membership, doesn't represent the total trappers views. REMEMBER - the world is run by those who show up!! There was enough info circulated that should have at least made trappers think that they should come and see what this issue was really about, that things are serious enough that they need now to take a more active interest in what is going on, with something that is a passion to them. You will NEVER get 100% of any group, of any interest to come to anyhting or even get involved enough to make an "informed" decision. I would love if all the 1100 members of the ABA would show up to our AGM and help the rest of us fight some of these battles. I would love if the 15000 bowhunters of Alberta would join the ABA and strengthen our position with government and the antis. It is no different with any other organization. The governments of the world recognize these different groups because they have done a great job in the past in representing the majority of their members, the majority of their interest group. The system would be in utter kaos if we didn't and just had a bunch of individuals showing up to a meeting yelling about something that they had no information/facts on. Happens too much as it is.
I will rely on those people who I have elected into position to make the decisions they feel is right for me and the organziation, for the future of my passion (be it bowhunting or trapping). If I think they are not right I will make my case - based on research and fact. If I don't think they are doing a good enough job, I'll run on my own platform against them. But I will NOT bad mouth them or the group because of my own ignorance on something. I WILL encourage everyone to get the facts, try and understand the BIG PICTURE here. The days where we could just go to the bush and forget about the rest of the world are over. We (as outdoor users in general) have to become a more active player or we are in huge trouble!!

It seems that any question posed in regard to the ATA is met with a very strong defensive, dramatic response. I sure isn't what I expected. Not a very good sign of transparency. I would really like to have a better showing in the voting through proxy votes and after I asked the question "what is the downside to a proxy vote?" there has been no respondent give a reason. As stated before this is done with other outdoor organizations why not us?? The ATA executive certainly has worked tirelessly in the direction of preserving Trappers rights and I applaud them for it. But as you have been extensively involved with many orgs. on an executive level, I hope you would agree that ANY
executive should not have "carte blanche" to do what ever they want without proper membership consultation. In this case it's even easier because we have Locals set up. I set this thread and my subsequent replys not to be branded a complainer or being a sh*t disturber. I want the best percentage of membership informed on the direction we are going. Skip the defensive attitude!!! I would like to see a respondent answer some of the questions posed and quit being dramatic. I am asking for a definitive plan for the self-governing...(ie. each local should have a copy of what was submitted to SRD) ...haven't seen one...and the tact has changed already, from directly to a DAO to now an MOU...haven't seen anything about that yet either (again each local should have a copy of what has been submitted to inform membership)....aren't these things important to communicate to membership? I think so...it's all our future. I am not building any case here...I WANT THE MEMBERSHIP WELL INFORMED which I feel they are not. I have had numerous calls from Trappers saying holy cow did you hear we're all going to lose our traplines!!! Well that certainly is lack of communication wouldn't you think? I hope this April's Presidents meeting will flush out some of the answers to the questions I have posed, it doesn't seem to be happening here.

[FastElk]

Firstly, I am a member of the Alberta Trappers Association and have been for more than 5 years
Secondly, I attended the AGM in Grande Prarie
because of these two things I feel that I should put in a comment
Redgreen, I applaude you, thank you for speaking up for so many. How are we going to open the eyes of those who cannot see as to what is going on before them? why don't we have a proxy vote? It's because it was taken from us in closed door meetings without our knowledge or consent. We may be partly to blame for not attending every AGM in the last 5 years and letting our executive do whatever they pleased, but I would have known if it had been put to the membership. As for other important decisions, such as going from the DAO to the MOU we should be in on these decisions,

There was not enough information circulated to give trappers a chance to make an informed decision at GP, even now most everything is a BIG secret, our executives don't even have enough information to answer questions they are asked

[FastElk]

Hi Brian, I just got back from my line and sure was disappointed in the amount of response here, and possible new ideas being bounced around for discussion.

The greater disappointment, however, was reading your response above. You should consider going into politics at some level. In your response there is nothing but generic rhetoric that doesn't clarify or solve any of the points brought up. Please try again.:huh:

As for the ACA I think it is a great organization and there are alot of projects etc. accomplished that contribute to outdoor enthusiasts. I truly can't imagine having it dismantled.

As for APOS, it has run somewhat effectively for a period of time but I understand it may be in financial trouble. Again I bring up sustained funding and having a concrete business plan on paper.
why on earth would we want to pay $500.00 or more a year to fix something that isn't broken?

[fjhoward]

I think that is the point. It is broken and if we don't do something we will lose it all quite likely after another provicial election. Staying the way it is isn't an option. Of course we could just bury our heads in the sand and hope for the best! I guess that could be called an option?

[FastElk]

I think that is the point. It is broken and if we don't do something we will lose it all quite likely after another provicial election. Staying the way it is isn't an option. Of course we could just bury our heads in the sand and hope for the best! I guess that could be called an option?

Please explain to me in detail which parts are broken? what is a DAO or MOU going to offer me that I don't already have?

[sourdough doug]

why on earth would we want to pay $500.00 or more a year to fix something that isn't broken?
I see that you picked up on the $ figures, that are already starting to escalate. There is no longer the "funding" available as was announced with great ceremony, if I recall correctly. The calculations that we came up with could run up to 3X the original numbers quoted. OK, now you do the math. My line being what it is, has seen years where my gross take would not cover what I might be expecting to pay on an ANNUAL basis. My line has in one form or another been decimated and the figures aren't there. I don't have the 75 martin laying in the freezer, awaiting better times as has been posted by one of the above contributors. It might take me 5 years to do that, so as not to overharvest. It is not only me that has to live with reality in this real world as we see it today. There are a large number of guys and gals too, in the same situation.
As Fast Elk also mentioned - Where is it broken ? I see Chicken Little running around screaming and hollering that the f---- sky is falling, just because a couple of gov't people, prob. not even backbenchers, got to talking . The bill that was passed gave us the protection we need from chicken little and others who want to create a legacy.

[Brian Bildson]

RedGreen - Night or day, I meant what I said. However you're the only one who knows if what I said applies to you. I stand by my comment.

Back on topic. I'm not on the ATA executive so any thoughts expressed here are mine. The problem with proxy votes is that they do not always represent the informed vote of a member. When a member makes a vote in person at an AGM they have sat through the discussion and debate on the topic. They're presented with the latest facts and ideas from both sides of the debate. Have you ever gone to a meeting without an opinion on a subject, but voted on that same topic after the group discussion?

However proxy votes are perfect for special interest folks within a group to advance their agenda just by circulating their version of the facts. Just head on down to the next local meeting and preach the message and get the boys signed up. Let's face it most members of any organization aren't fascinated with the running of it so if someone they know wants them to sign something, why not.

As for the DAO info not being circulated to the membership I have a hard time buying that. I saw plenty of info and both my email and phone work real good so no reason I couldn't give my ATA executive a call.

However if you want my opinion about running a big deficit at the ATA that's another topic. I do not believe in incurring debt unless a strong business case can be made for it. Having said that you're not being fair to the present executive, correct me but aren't they the ones who got the ATA out of previous debt?

I believe our executive will finalize a memorandoum of understanding with
(MOU) ASRD that will ease our way towards a DAO. They will set a budget that is do-able and we will take small steps towards more self government. This process will take years.

And for those who think that trapping as we practice it today in Alberta is guaranteed, you might want to revisit the LUF. There's enough ammunition in there to change trapping as we know it. I want a strong organization like the ATA to represent my interests.

[redgreen]

RedGreen - Night or day, I meant what I said. However you're the only one who knows if what I said applies to you. I stand by my comment.

:lol:



Back on topic. I'm not on the ATA executive so any thoughts expressed here are mine. The problem with proxy votes is that they do not always represent the informed vote of a member. When a member makes a vote in person at an AGM they have sat through the discussion and debate on the topic. They're presented with the latest facts and ideas from both sides of the debate. Have you ever gone to a meeting without an opinion on a subject, but voted on that same topic after the group discussion?

If an Association distributes and KEEPS the membership informed properly, an informed decision can be made by proxy..it seems to be working for other organizations. This magnitude of an issue (DAO/MOU) is too large for just a small portion of the membership to be voting on.


However proxy votes are perfect for special interest folks within a group to advance their agenda just by circulating their version of the facts. Just head on down to the next local meeting and preach the message and get the boys signed up. Let's face it most members of any organization aren't fascinated with the running of it so if someone they know wants them to sign something, why not.


In GP we had to produce our trapping licence as well as our ATA membership. Spouses were no exception which is another issue to be discussed. So if the criteria in voting were to remain the same I see no opportunity for special interest groups to infiltrate our Association. You have no point here at all.


As for the DAO info not being circulated to the membership I have a hard time buying that. I saw plenty of info and both my email and phone work real good so no reason I couldn't give my ATA executive a call.

Please outline what what circulated? There was a general viewpoint from a few of the executives and directors in our magazine, but never did I see a plan, or a copy of the submission to SRD, or correspondence to SRD.


However if you want my opinion about running a big deficit at the ATA that's another topic. I do not believe in incurring debt unless a strong business case can be made for it. Having said that you're not being fair to the present executive, correct me but aren't they the ones who got the ATA out of previous debt?

Again, I think the locals should be getting copies of proposals for large expenditures such as the new proposed building etc.. Again let's see the business plan circulated...wouldn't that make you feel much more comfort in proceeding?


I believe our executive will finalize a memorandoum of understanding with
(MOU) ASRD that will ease our way towards a DAO. They will set a budget that is do-able and we will take small steps towards more self government. This process will take years.

Like you have said before maybe the next Govt. formed won't be trappers or understand...with one stroke of a pen the MOU could be gone. I know it may not happen but it is possible. So what do you think of Bill 201?
And for those who think that trapping as we practice it today in Alberta is guaranteed, you might want to revisit the LUF. There's enough ammunition in there to change trapping as we know it. I want a strong organization like the ATA to represent my interests.

Gordy assued me that the Trappers would be one of the few not affected by the LUF and I know he has been working hard on getting this done.

I see that Jim M has sent out a newletter for the month with two informational attachments regarding the MOU and the LUF. I look forward to reading them. It is nice to see some communication has occurred.

[Brian Bildson]

Damn Red if you keep advancing reasonable arguments how am I supposed to change your mind? I don't think we're that far apart, we're just looking from different directions. I'm prepared to talk one on one via phone and I suspect you have my number. I'd welcome your call. I also will respond to more of your points above but I'm gearing up to head to FNAWS in Red Deer and then ACA so it'll be over the next few days.

It's obvious you're a member of the Sundry Local so I have a question for you. What exactly is your local's position on the ATA? Over the years I kept hearing as a member about this on and off local down in Sundry. I really don't know any of the facts about your local, so is this true?

I'm looking forward to talking one on one with your Sundry members at the convention.

[redgreen]

Damn Red if you keep advancing reasonable arguments how am I supposed to change your mind? I don't think we're that far apart, we're just looking from different directions. I'm prepared to talk one on one via phone and I suspect you have my number. I'd welcome your call. I also will respond to more of your points above but I'm gearing up to head to FNAWS in Red Deer and then ACA so it'll be over the next few days.

It's not at all about "changing my mind"....it is about being transparent and communicating to membership. I will be very pleased when members are being informed in a proper manner.


It's obvious you're a member of the Sundry Local so I have a question for you. What exactly is your local's position on the ATA? Over the years I kept hearing as a member about this on and off local down in Sundry.

I don't understand what do you mean by an "off and on Local"?

I really don't know any of the facts about your local, so is this true?

Sorry Brian if "WHAT" is true?

I'm looking forward to talking one on one with your Sundry members at the convention.

The Sundre hosted Convention will be a great event and I am sure everyone will have a grand time. I attended the Rocky local meeting last night and I am not sure if members know but they are assisting us in putting on the Convention, and are putting much effort into the Special Events portion of the Convention, as well as working with us on the wolf incentive program, resolutions etc... If any other Locals would like to get involved in any manner for the Convention such as items for the silent or live auction please pm me. The Grande Prairie Local has generously donated $1500.00 to assist putting the Convention on.

[FastElk]

:confused: Is there no one out there that can tell me how a DAO or a MOU is going to benefit me or any other average trapper,
Also can anyone tell me when guided trapline tours became legal?:huh:

[redgreen]

I think that is the point. It is broken and if we don't do something we will lose it all quite likely after another provicial election. Staying the way it is isn't an option. Of course we could just bury our heads in the sand and hope for the best! I guess that could be called an option?


I sure would like you to respond to Fast Elk's query...don't just put some generic thoughts in without some backup!!:rolleye2:

[redgreen]

:confused: Is there no one out there that can tell me how a DAO or a MOU is going to benefit me or any other average trapper,
Also can anyone tell me when guided trapline tours became legal?:huh:


Judging by the way some ATA members up the ladder are picking up traplines, I don't know if trapline adventures are legal or how that works but it is happening and there must be some money and a future in it!!!

[sourdough doug]

Judging by the way some ATA executive are picking up traplines I don't know if trapline adventures are legal but there must be some money and a future in it!!:lol:

I'm still trying to figure if what you said was with tongue in cheek or not. Regardless, this is an issue, whether legal or not, was considered to be an unethical practice, leastwise by those of ethics. It was discussed by past executives and at AGMs but certain individuals were doing this inspite of what the ATA considered to be correct. This matter ,of late, appears to have taken a change in direction, as is evident by the truth in what you said and is beginning to take on the shape of --No I better not say-- but there is space between the lines to read in anything you like, just as those are doing with their "ventures" I'm sure there are several others on the short list for some of those "Phantom lines". What is that saying about --Absolute power...

[northerntrapper]

Okay, now I'm compelled to add to this thread. As a registered trapper, I don't see any benefit to paying $500 (or more) per year to renew my right to trap. Especially since no one can explain the benefits of a DAO to me in simple, layman's terms. Enough of the politician double talk. The pro DAO people can now get off the fence and lay it out. Is this new DAO thing a scheme for those who want to do trapline excursions in addition to trapping? What is the REAL agenda? This is one trapper who is opposed to the DAO, because quite frankly, I don't know what it entails other than costing me a lot of money. My favorite motto is;
"when in doubt, throw it out"

[gibb]

Doug if that is how you feel about the executives of the ATA you should run for office I know that every trapper association in Canada are always looking for fresh ideas and new blood.
From an outsider looking in I can tell you honestly that you have the most progressive association in Canada, and believe me I know all the associations.
Jim

[Brian Bildson]

I don't even know what the heck you guys are talking about? Trapping adventures, execs buying up lines? Got something to say why not just come out with it?

Northern Trapper is your only opposition to an MOU because you think it'll cost you more money to trap?

[redgreen]

I don't even know what the heck you guys are talking about? Trapping adventures, execs buying up lines? Got something to say why not just come out with it?

Northern Trapper is your only opposition to an MOU because you think it'll cost you more money to trap?

I am still waiting for your response on what is an on and off Local etc.. Maybe if you have something to say just come out with it.

As far as trapline adventures I know Ross and Bill have had one going and there are a few others advertised if you google "trapline adventures". What do you think Brian, is this the way traplines should be going?

Everyone here seems to want clarification on the MOU and to date on this thread there hasn't been any definitive response. In fact there hasn't been a definitive response to most any of the questions raised...just "follow along and take the medicine it will be good for you". Well that isn't good enough for me!!

[redgreen]

Doug if that is how you feel about the executives of the ATA you should run for office I know that every trapper association in Canada are always looking for fresh ideas and new blood.
From an outsider looking in I can tell you honestly that you have the most progressive association in Canada, and believe me I know all the associations.
Jim

Doug could face a delay. To become an executive you must first serve as a director for one year, although I am sure there will be some director changes this year. I agree with you new blood and new ideas can be a good thing.

[Rafter]

I am still waiting for your response on what is an on and off Local etc.. Maybe if you have something to say just come out with it.

As far as trapline adventures I know Ross and Bill have had one going and there are a few others advertised if you google "trapline adventures". What do you think Brian, is this the way traplines should be going?

Everyone here seems to want clarification on the MOU and to date on this thread there hasn't been any definitive response. In fact there hasn't been a definitive response to most any of the questions raised...just "follow along and take the medicine it will be good for you". Well that isn't good enough for me!!

RedGreen and Others,

I have been a Trapper for close to forty years in Alberta now. I do not know what the DAO or MOU is about. Obviously the ATA leadership is not representing me!! I know the same is true for some other trappers.

This thread would be the perfect forum to inform/educate myself and others. I would like to see the ATA post the info here to inform the uninformed and to encourage rational discussion regarding the matter.

I am leery of any major changes, agreed to by a few with the Government, to government trapping regulations that are going to impact trappers in Alberta.

Governments tend to "stack the deck" by organizing "representatives" that are suppose to be representing an industry and then pushing through sweeping changes that are best suited for Government rather than the induviduals that are involved in the industry.

I wonder who sat at the negotiating table regarding the DAO/MOU. Were there representation from non ATA trappers for an example. Was the representation for ATA members solicited from all members or was just the stacked deck individuals agenda pursued.

Leadership means consulting with community, not to be self serving.

Rafter

[northerntrapper]

Brian. It costs me 50.00 to renew my license now. What is the benefit to pay 10 x that? That's all I want to know. Brian, you must know what the benefits are, as you are really pushing it............lay it out for the rest of us. Maybe it is worthwhile. Fill us in.

[bearguy]

Fairly quick and simple to explain. The DAO or MOU are going to protect trappers rights in Alberta, fairly, across the province. The agreement will deal with cabin policy,compensation, etc,and will give the gov. and industry and the citizens of Alta, a place to go to deal with trappers. As for what this gives the trappers, it gives them a voice, education, and a means of communication. This is what started the ATA, being a voice of the trapper and representing our industry. It is the job of the ATA executive, to ensure trapping is carried forward and to address issues that affect trapping. For those that indicate there is a hidden adgenda, you need to stop and think for a minute.

[Rafter]

Fairly quick and simple to explain. The DAO or MOU are going to protect trappers rights in Alberta, fairly, across the province. The agreement will deal with cabin policy,compensation, etc,and will give the gov. and industry and the citizens of Alta, a place to go to deal with trappers. As for what this gives the trappers, it gives them a voice, education, and a means of communication. This is what started the ATA, being a voice of the trapper and representing our industry. It is the job of the ATA executive, to ensure trapping is carried forward and to address issues that affect trapping. For those that indicate there is a hidden adgenda, you need to stop and think for a minute.

Bearguy,

Thanks for the quick and simple explanation. Is any of the info on the DAO/MOU written somewhere that an uninformed individual may read and come to their own conclusions.

Thanks,
Rafter

[redgreen]

Fairly quick and simple to explain. The DAO or MOU are going to protect trappers rights in Alberta, fairly, across the province.

I thought this was the idea of being one voice as the Alberta Trappers Association???? Why is this not adequate now? Tell me how the MOU/DAO is going to be superior?


The agreement will deal with cabin policy,compensation, etc,and will give the gov. and industry and the citizens of Alta, a place to go to deal with trappers.

As I said above we already have that with the ATA. The cabin policy is up to SRD to enforce not the ATA.



As for what this gives the trappers, it gives them a voice, education, and a means of communication. This is what started the ATA, being a voice of the trapper and representing our industry.

As far as I know the ATA is doing a great job and IS a voice for the trapper!!

It is the job of the ATA executive, to ensure trapping is carried forward and to address issues that affect trapping.

That's right and as far as I know they are doing a good job now, and in conjuction with Bill 201 I would like someone to point out what would be so special for us to have the MOU and eventually the DAO?
For those that indicate there is a hidden adgenda, you need to stop and think for a minute.

I guess with no outlined rationale for persuing an MOU or DAO what would be the reasoning? I don't know, and that is why we need a proper plan laid out to members that addresses funding etc.. so it is very transparent on the direction us trappers are headed and WHY!!


Again all I see here is generic, tow the line, trust me it will be good for us rhetoric, but no answers.
As for who voted to proceed, it is still 85% of a small number of the membership. I have formally asked for the letter to Dr. Morton dated August of 08 apprising him of the vote in Grande Prairie. If it was said that 85% of ALL trappers voted for proceeding with the MOU/DAO then Minister Morton is not properly informed. To date I have not received a copy of the letter but tomorrow I will telephone the Ministers office and get one.I think proxy voting should be brought back in and so do a few other Locals. It would certainly be a better representation of the membership's wishes.


I am still waiting for Brian Bildson's answers to my questions...not a good sign for someone that appears so confident proceeding in this direction. I believe if concrete answers are given to support the MOU and DAO I would be more than happy to throw all my support behind it. Haven't seen it yet.

[sourdough doug]

Fairly quick and--- BEARGUY, if there was any truth to that statement, do you honestly think there would be so many trappers out there that do not understand this whole schmozzle. Are all trappers really that dumb ? I want you all to read closely what RAFTER, had to say, then read it again. Here is a trapper, been doing so for 40 years and like most of us doesn't understand it either. He wants direct, honest answers, to questions he has and explanations for what all else has been going on. Who can deny anyone that ?
Furthermore, there is no way in hell, that the ATA can fund the operating cap required to keep it afloat. For the comparison to be made between the ATA and APOS was one of the most ridiculous statements I had heard in a long time and that we can operate as they do---NOT--.
GIBB- I was there, approx 6 years ago for a 4 year stint, when communication went both ways. It didn't always run downhill. (From an outsider looking in ---- ). This always amazes me. There has always been two sides to most stories . How many sides have you heard.? This is not being said sarcastically Jim ..
NORTHERNTRAPPER - Damn right that -- 500$ PER YEAR-- is too much..For you, me and 85% of the others out there who cannot catch the big money fur, cuz they're not on our kind of lines to any extent.. Should be plain as the nose on your face, keeping in mind, Why it is that all will pay-- TO FUND THE DAO and RELATED EXPENSES.

[Brian Bildson]

As I explained in an earlier post I've been on the road all this week and out of touch, but it's nice to be popular.

Red I've been contacted by a member of the Sundre Local and told that you belong to the Rocky local. So I've passed my questions on to the appropriate local. However to answer your specific question, over the years I've heard that the Sundry local was a member, then dropped out of ATA but kept a local going, then came back in.

I don't know if that is true or not, and have never cared enough to ask at the ATA office level, but am still curious. I still don't the answer back yet, can you assist?

As for providing you with details of the MOU & DAO launch I'd suggest you send your questions to the ATA presidents meeting in April ,via your local's executive. Might as well get the answer right from the horses mouth as I am not part of the ATA executive. I can tell you our Grande Prairie local felt we were very well informed and took the iniative of inviting Gordy Klassen to come to several of our meetings for updates.

I do want to thank RedGreen for starting this thread. We must have a forum for respectful difference of opinions and fresh thinking to stay vibrant as an organization. The points you have all have brought up are valid from your perspective and I respect that. So let me make my case for increased self government.

I'm getting old and I've been around. I've sat on the ACA Board for many years now. In that time I've gotten to know the last few SRD's deputy ministers and ADM's, as they have also sat on the ACA board. Also over the last 3 years my fellow Board members have chosen me to sit as their Chairman. This has led to one on one discussions with both the previous Minister Coutts, and Minister Morton.

I mention this because it is important in how I have shaped the opinions I have today. As the ATA representative on the ACA board I took every opportunity I could to stay current on government mindset towards trapping. I had the unbelievable advantage of talking directly to the decision makers. What I heard alarmed me.

There was then, and still is today, an element of government staff who view trapping as unnecessary in today's world. They used all the same arguements we've heard for years. Lack of active trappers on the landscape, cabin abuses, not economically viable. And in truth their arguments hold some weight, but do not apply to the majority of trappers.

Now couple this with an energy boom going on like never seen before. Government policy was, and is, to develop those resources. However there is one potential little thorn in the side of fast tracking development and that's trappers. Our tenure on the land is different then other users and the oil & gas companies don't like it.

The pressure was on to make changes to the present trapping system and several models were explored. Things like replacing of the RFMA system with open recreational licenses, no cabins allowed, eliminating RFMA's from select portions of the province, radical changes that would have changed trapping forever. This process is still on going but thankfully the ATA is lobbying hard for our interests.

I suspect that most of you know this information already, as it was freely discussed around the province. I'm going to assume that you accept that this process was and is still ongoing. Based on your acceptance of that assumption, which I personally know to be true, I make the following case for increased self government.

You'll notice I'm not using the terms DAO or MOU, as I want fellow trappers to really think about what those terms mean. A MOU & DAO are tools for us to achieve what ever level of self-government the ATA feels is right. This level will also have to be agreeable to the government of the day of course.

I believe that in order to achieve an assured future for trapping in AB we need to have that self government and position ourselves as the provider of services to both our members and government. Of course the ATA must focus on those things that benefit our members most, and are the best fit for us. No one wants to be involved in enforcement or SRD management duties.

The important thing here is to be an active partner with SRD in the affairs of Alberta Trappers. As a partner you are in the communication and decision making processes. An active trappers association and membership also supplies a valuable on-the-ground resource to SRD.

In a DAO both parties are forced to continue working together through their program agreements or MOU's. I say forced because MOU's and program agreements are essentially contracts between the parties. So if a political party loses an election and is ousted the existing contracts and the DAO continue to exist and are in force.

Of course a new government can disband the DAO's put in place by the previous government, but it takes time and effort. More likely they'd keep the DAO and try to reshape it to their vision. The same benefit exists should the party stay the same but have a regime change e.g. Klein / Stelmach. The new guys running the show are unlikely to throw out their own DAO.

My hope is the members of the ATA stay on target and focused. Lets have this discussion but I hope those still undecided can see the value in making a rational business decision. Because that's what this is a business decision.

I've looked at the facts and I'm siding with the ATA executive because they are making good business sense. I'm not going to let fear of change or smoke screens about increased costs scare me off. In regards to the "fee increase" issue, come on let's get serious. What organization is going to price membership out of the reach of their members? Maybe the dodo club.

Fellow trappers please think about about this issue and come to your own conclusions. But you have an excellent opportunity to ask any questions at the upcoming ATA presidents meeting April 18th. If you don't have an executive attending perhaps you could fax your questions to the ATA and give them a chance to answer.

As for you Redgreen I have a question for you. What did the ATA executive tell you when you asked them these same questions? Of course I'm assuming you did contact them right?

[Brian Bildson]

P.S

Trapline tours?

Sounds like another smokescreen. What business is it of mine if some trapper can make a buck showing our way of life to an interested party. If that person is only observing and not handling traps it's legal... enough said

The way that question is phrased also implies that there is more to this then we common people are in on. Why don't you guys in the know let us in on this, sounds like a real money maker to me. Yup buy up all the trap lines in Alberta and tap into that great unexploited business of trapline tours.

Let's see average trapline price $40,000. I could probably get $200 a day. Man if things go good I could probably pay it off by 2050. You just might be on to something here.

[redgreen]

As I explained in an earlier post I've been on the road all this week and out of touch, but it's nice to be popular.

Red I've been contacted by a member of the Sundre Local and told that you belong to the Rocky local. So I've passed my questions on to the appropriate local.

Whatever would those questions be?

However to answer your specific question, over the years I've heard that the Sundry local was a member, then dropped out of ATA but kept a local going, then came back in.

I belong to both the Sundre and Rocky locals.

I don't know if that is true or not, and have never cared enough to ask at the ATA office level, but am still curious. I still don't the answer back yet, can you assist?

I don't know either but if so it must have been a very long time ago

As for providing you with details of the MOU & DAO launch I'd suggest you send your questions to the ATA presidents meeting in April ,via your local's executive. Might as well get the answer right from the horses mouth as I am not part of the ATA executive. I can tell you our Grande Prairie local felt we were very well informed and took the iniative of inviting Gordy Klassen to come to several of our meetings for updates.

The Presidents meeting will hopefully clear up outstanding issues. Sundre after repeated invitations finally got Gordy down prior to the GP vote. I'm sorry to say that after his life history and "the sky is falling" there were no real answers to the questions posed. The answer from the horses mouth to membership should have happened a long time ago.


I do want to thank RedGreen for starting this thread. We must have a forum for respectful difference of opinions and fresh thinking to stay vibrant as an organization. The points you have all have brought up are valid from your perspective and I respect that. So let me make my case for increased self government.

I'm getting old and I've been around. I've sat on the ACA Board for many years now. In that time I've gotten to know the last few SRD's deputy ministers and ADM's, as they have also sat on the ACA board. Also over the last 3 years my fellow Board members have chosen me to sit as their Chairman. This has led to one on one discussions with both the previous Minister Coutts, and Minister Morton.

I mention this because it is important in how I have shaped the opinions I have today. As the ATA representative on the ACA board I took every opportunity I could to stay current on government mindset towards trapping. I had the unbelievable advantage of talking directly to the decision makers. What I heard alarmed me.

There was then, and still is today, an element of government staff who view trapping as unnecessary in today's world. They used all the same arguements we've heard for years. Lack of active trappers on the landscape, cabin abuses, not economically viable. And in truth their arguments hold some weight, but do not apply to the majority of trappers.

Now couple this with an energy boom going on like never seen before. Government policy was, and is, to develop those resources. However there is one potential little thorn in the side of fast tracking development and that's trappers. Our tenure on the land is different then other users and the oil & gas companies don't like it.

The pressure was on to make changes to the present trapping system and several models were explored. Things like replacing of the RFMA system with open recreational licenses, no cabins allowed, eliminating RFMA's from select portions of the province, radical changes that would have changed trapping forever. This process is still on going but thankfully the ATA is lobbying hard for our interests.

I suspect that most of you know this information already, as it was freely discussed around the province. I'm going to assume that you accept that this process was and is still ongoing. Based on your acceptance of that assumption, which I personally know to be true, I make the following case for increased self government.

You'll notice I'm not using the terms DAO or MOU, as I want fellow trappers to really think about what those terms mean. A MOU & DAO are tools for us to achieve what ever level of self-government the ATA feels is right. This level will also have to be agreeable to the government of the day of course.

Brian the self-governing trappers org., if it does happen will NOT have supreme and ultimate power. The Govt. will still have "the final say" so to speak on important issues. However you have made some good generic points.


I believe that in order to achieve an assured future for trapping in AB we need to have that self government and position ourselves as the provider of services to both our members and government. Of course the ATA must focus on those things that benefit our members most, and are the best fit for us. No one wants to be involved in enforcement or SRD management duties.

You mentioned earlier of enforcement of cabin policies. So it looks like the intent with the self-governing IS to get involved with enforcement.

The important thing here is to be an active partner with SRD in the affairs of Alberta Trappers. As a partner you are in the communication and decision making processes. An active trappers association and membership also supplies a valuable on-the-ground resource to SRD.

This is what we have now. Although the communication could obviously be improved.


In a DAO both parties are forced to continue working together through their program agreements or MOU's. I say forced because MOU's and program agreements are essentially contracts between the parties. So if a political party loses an election and is ousted the existing contracts and the DAO continue to exist and are in force.

Of course a new government can disband the DAO's put in place by the previous government, but it takes time and effort. More likely they'd keep the DAO and try to reshape it to their vision. The same benefit exists should the party stay the same but have a regime change e.g. Klein / Stelmach. The new guys running the show are unlikely to throw out their own DAO.

First you say all contracts remain the same and in this breath you say they can be struck down with a stroke of a pen????:rolleye2::rolleye2:


My hope is the members of the ATA stay on target and focused. Lets have this discussion but I hope those still undecided can see the value in making a rational business decision. Because that's what this is a business decision.

I've looked at the facts and I'm siding with the ATA executive because they are making good business sense. I'm not going to let fear of change or smoke screens about increased costs scare me off. In regards to the "fee increase" issue, come on let's get serious. What organization is going to price membership out of the reach of their members? Maybe the dodo club.

Fellow trappers please think about about this issue and come to your own conclusions. But you have an excellent opportunity to ask any questions at the upcoming ATA presidents meeting April 18th. If you don't have an executive attending perhaps you could fax your questions to the ATA and give them a chance to answer.

I certainly hope there is an excellent showing at the presidents meeting!!

As for you Redgreen I have a question for you. What did the ATA executive tell you when you asked them these same questions? Of course I'm assuming you did contact them right?

Yes I have asked the ATA executive questions. The replies were far from definitive and/or "I don't know". Also remember this first started as going directly to a DAO...whatever happened there is also a mystery as when asked all Gordy told me was..."well I felt that it wasn't the way to go" Well doesn't that tell a person alot!! So yes hopefully at the Presidents meeting we can get a clear vision of just what is going on. As for you Brian, you still haven't addressed the sustained funding for this organization. Looks like you bought into a company without a business plan. Not very astute.

[redgreen]

P.S

Trapline tours?

Sounds like another smokescreen. What business is it of mine if some trapper can make a buck showing our way of life to an interested party. If that person is only observing and not handling traps it's legal...

Now I have my answer, you are infavour of traplines going this direction, thank you.
enough said

The way that question is phrased also implies that there is more to this then we common people are in on. Why don't you guys in the know let us in on this, sounds like a real money maker to me.

Why yes Brian, if you do your research it is a money-maker!!

Yup buy up all the trap lines in Alberta and tap into that great unexploited business of trapline tours.

Let's see average trapline price $40,000. I could probably get $200 a day. Man if things go good I could probably pay it off by 2050. You just might be on to something here.

Now your business accumen is really showing!!! Please google the active trapline adventures and get the real price tag on trips.:lol::lol::lol:

[Rafter]

P.S

Trapline tours?

Sounds like another smokescreen. What business is it of mine if some trapper can make a buck showing our way of life to an interested party. If that person is only observing and not handling traps it's legal... enough said

The way that question is phrased also implies that there is more to this then we common people are in on. Why don't you guys in the know let us in on this, sounds like a real money maker to me. Yup buy up all the trap lines in Alberta and tap into that great unexploited business of trapline tours.

Let's see average trapline price $40,000. I could probably get $200 a day. Man if things go good I could probably pay it off by 2050. You just might be on to something here.

Brian,

In Alberta it would be an extremely rare occurence for any trapper to realize a profit. For most trappers in Alberta, if not all, their trapline activities are subsidized by other sources of income. The better traplines are selling anywhere from $50,000.00 to $250,000.00. Obviously a business venture to be entered into with the realization of no financial gain.

Trap line tours are a very viable option for the trapper to actually make a profit, especially in the Mountain areas. If you host tours for 42 days @ $1,300.00/day (2 clients) the gross revenue is $54,600.00. Add on some gratuities and fur revenue and all of a sudden you have a profitable business venture. Also keep in mind that the original capital invested in the purchase of a line is realized with a profit upon resale of the line.

Successful trapline tours have been and are still operating in Canada for years now. Why not, they are profitable.

Rafter

[Brian Bildson]

No Red I'm not suggesting trapline tours are the route for trappers. What I'm saying is they're legal and I have no problem with them. Once again you throw out comments that are supposed to make readers think a conspiracy exists to convert traplines by the executive. What a crock

Rafter I agree, why not do the tours if you like but I still don't believe a stand alone trapline tour business would generate a living. I'd be happy to be wrong.

Red it's starting to sound like your problem is more with Gordy than anything else. Little jealousy happening.
maybe?

Anyways thanks for the inspiration. This sounds like my next column. I'll review your questions and seek official answers not just my feelings.

And Red as for a business plan it's not my job to write it, but I'd love to do one. I've spent decades running several very successful businesses. I currently manage over $160 million in Real Estate and seem to muddle my way through.

[Backwoods Runner]

Trapline tours? Seems like a very thin line to the next step,perhaps outfitted hunts, utilizing trapping cabins as accomodations. OUCH!!! DID I say that out loud. Soon traplines and trappers will just be a disguise instead of actually being fur managers, which is already the case in many areas. This may be a viable option, being with all the logging and oil industry ruining my sets and shrinking my available trapping area.::rolleyes:

This should be on it's own thread, but had to put in my $.25 here.

[redgreen]

No Red I'm not suggesting trapline tours are the route for trappers. What I'm saying is they're legal and I have no problem with them. Once again you throw out comments that are supposed to make readers think a conspiracy exists to convert traplines by the executive. What a crock

Rafter I agree, why not do the tours if you like but I still don't believe a stand alone trapline tour business would generate a living. I'd be happy to be wrong.

Red it's starting to sound like your problem is more with Gordy than anything else. Little jealousy happening.
maybe?

Brian, that doesn't even make sense. Grow up.


Anyways thanks for the inspiration. This sounds like my next column. I'll review your questions and seek official answers not just my feelings.

Ross and Bill could help you with the trapline tour data. There are I believe a couple others in Alberta that also do tours. It is an interesting topic.

And Red as for a business plan it's not my job to write it, but I'd love to do one.

So I take it there isn't one then?

I've spent decades running several very successful businesses. I currently manage over $160 million in Real Estate and seem to muddle my way through.

Well Brian, "even in a strong wind, some turkeys can fly".:lol:

[Brian Bildson]

Redgreen I've listened to your points and it's obvious your mind is set. I'll let the other readers make up their mind.

My Column will be on self government not trapline tours. The tours are a non-topic. Tours are legal, end of story. The more people we can expose to our life style the better.

Aren't you tired of hiding behind that handle?

[redgreen]

Redgreen I've listened to your points and it's obvious your mind is set. I'll let the other readers make up their mind.

That's nice of you to let people make up their own minds...I'm sure they will.

My Column will be on self government not trapline tours. The tours are a non-topic. Tours are legal, end of story. The more people we can expose to our life style the better.

[COLOR="Blue"]I look forward to reading your article. The more information the better!! All I would say please try to keep it factual and informative, without drama and generic statements. That may take some practice for you, but after a few runs at it you may come close. /COLOR]

Aren't you tired of hiding behind that handle?

This statement, coupled with your pm makes you a true cretin in all it's definition!!:rolleye2::rolleye2:

[highcountry2009]

No Red I'm not suggesting trapline tours are the route for trappers. What I'm saying is they're legal and I have no problem with them. Once again you throw out comments that are supposed to make readers think a conspiracy exists to convert traplines by the executive. What a crock

Rafter I agree, why not do the tours if you like but I still don't believe a stand alone trapline tour business would generate a living. I'd be happy to be wrong.

Red it's starting to sound like your problem is more with Gordy than anything else. Little jealousy happening.
maybe?

Anyways thanks for the inspiration. This sounds like my next column. I'll review your questions and seek official answers not just my feelings.

And Red as for a business plan it's not my job to write it, but I'd love to do one. I've spent decades running several very successful businesses. I currently manage over $160 million in Real Estate and seem to muddle my way through.
you answer question by avoiding them.Ithink u should leave trapping to trapper and stick to being the 160 million dollar man

[redgreen]

Trapline tours? Seems like a very thin line to the next step,perhaps outfitted hunts, utilizing trapping cabins as accomodations. OUCH!!! DID I say that out loud. Soon traplines and trappers will just be a disguise instead of actually being fur managers, which is already the case in many areas. This may be a viable option, being with all the logging and oil industry ruining my sets and shrinking my available trapping area.::rolleyes:

This should be on it's own thread, but had to put in my $.25 here.

I am suprised some outfitters haven't responded to this yet. I guess Mr. Bildson has a different vision for the future of traplines. As he says, "As long as it's legal...we can do it...end of story":rolleye2::rolleye2::rolleye2::huh::huh:

I wish more people would put there two bits in here and voice their opinions. I don't want this thread to die just yet. Doesn't anyone have comments on proxy voting, building a 500K+ store when times are in financial ruin, or trapper education...how that money should be spent... promoting public education vs trapper education through courses, advanced courses???....there are lots of topics to discuss and start new threads on here and get some ideas flowing.


Now thanks to Mr. Bildson and his pm's my fire is lit. I have some queries into the Ministers Office and waiting for their response.

[redgreen]

Fairly quick and simple to explain. The DAO or MOU are going to protect trappers rights in Alberta, fairly, across the province. The agreement will deal with cabin policy,compensation, etc,and will give the gov. and industry and the citizens of Alta, a place to go to deal with trappers. As for what this gives the trappers, it gives them a voice, education, and a means of communication. This is what started the ATA, being a voice of the trapper and representing our industry. It is the job of the ATA executive, to ensure trapping is carried forward and to address issues that affect trapping. For those that indicate there is a hidden adgenda, you need to stop and think for a minute.

I replied to your post...nothing to say?

[sourdough doug]

I was under the impression that one could be accompanied by peoples on their line, however they were NOT ALLOWED to handle the fur nor skin or aid in prep. without having a trappers license. Now this is not what is being advertised by those presently doing these ventures. They say you participate in all phases of trapping and to my understanding this is ILLEGAL-- but only for some. It will next be the outfitters, who will be demanding permanent dwellings in their areas. Can anyone see where this is heading, all becuz, SOME "TRAPPERS" are doing so already. Having year-round dwellings nearby, doesn't exactly hinder or deter one from persuing these vested interests.
--- Regarding, the purchasing of land and building of a store, not long ago as I passed thru Westlock, I made a phone call to a Real Estate co. and was shown a building of approx 16000 sq. ft, more than half which could be sublet or leased, just off main street, included warehouse space, loading dock and more for 500,000 price open for neg. Which made me wonder, was anything looked into or does it have to be shining new, like a big new belt buckle.. And there were other sites avail., but I didn't have time to view them. Plus the fact, that I cannot imagine a bank taking the present store as much equity.
---As for Red - "hiding behind a handle" - well that's what most forums about, then there are those that like to see -- their names - front and center..

[shetrapper]

Hi there to all trappers, both male and female. I am Junior on our FRMA and have now trapped for two years. I really enjoyed taking the trappers course and I am sad this season has ended..but sure looking forward to next!!! We sure did have a successful year.

I attended with my husband last years ATA AGM and Convention in Grande Prairie. I was and still am a member in good standing with the ATA. ASRD regulations do not require me to get a Junior partnership as I am a Spouse. Well we both paid our registrations and when I went to officially register at the Convention I was told because I didn't have a trappers licence I wouldn't be eligible to vote. The registration gal just smiled and said it may be SRD regs to be an active trapper, but it's not ATA policy.

This is totally unfair, I am an active trapper, a member in good standing with the ATA, and should be eligible to vote. What kind of organization will allow you to be a registered member (not an associate member) and be ineligible to vote? None that I know of. I think a review from the Societies Act would maybe put this Association in their place. This is discrimination at it's height and I am not going to stand for it. We drove 8 hours to get up there and get treated like that??

We respected the fact that proxy voting was not allowed for this vote, and drove all the way up there, and then 1/2 our voting privledges went out the door in spite of the fact I am a member in good standing with the ATA, am a bonfide active trapper in accordance with our Govt. regulations ... this is not palatable.

I don't know how many women trappers were caught in the same boat, but I would urge you to get hold of the Societies Act Administration, have this Association audited and also send a message to the ASRD Minister.

[Rafter]

Hi there to all trappers, both male and female. I am Junior on our FRMA and have now trapped for two years. I really enjoyed taking the trappers course and I am sad this season has ended..but sure looking forward to next!!! We sure did have a successful year.

I attended with my husband last years ATA AGM and Convention in Grande Prairie. I was and still am a member in good standing with the ATA. ASRD regulations do not require me to get a Junior partnership as I am a Spouse. Well we both paid our registrations and when I went to officially register at the Convention I was told because I didn't have a trappers licence I wouldn't be eligible to vote. The registration gal just smiled and said it may be SRD regs to be an active trapper, but it's not ATA policy.

This is totally unfair, I am an active trapper, a member in good standing with the ATA, and should be eligible to vote. What kind of organization will allow you to be a registered member (not an associate member) and be ineligible to vote? None that I know of. I think a review from the Societies Act would maybe put this Association in their place. This is discrimination at it's height and I am not going to stand for it. We drove 8 hours to get up there and get treated like that??

We respected the fact that proxy voting was not allowed for this vote, and drove all the way up there, and then 1/2 our voting privledges went out the door in spite of the fact I am a member in good standing with the ATA, am a bonfide active trapper in accordance with our Govt. regulations ... this is not palatable.

I don't know how many women trappers were caught in the same boat, but I would urge you to get hold of the Societies Act Administration, have this Association audited and also send a message to the ASRD Minister.

SheTrapper,

On the light side, "Hell hath no fury as a woman scorned"

In my opinion you are a bona fide trapper who belongs to an association that does not give you a voice. I agree whole heartedly with you, as it is not right that you do not have a voice. I am guessing the ATA thinks that your husband will get two votes by getting his spouse to vote his way and that his spouse is incapable to form her own opinion.

I suggest you work on changing this situation as I bet you could garner a lot of support from other non voting members and families. You can become a junior trapper. Would this allow you to vote then???

The bonds of husband and wife on a trapline create a very successful and rewarding lifestyle and business venture. True companionship prevails and safety in remote areas are addressed. I am sure that you two are the envy of your peers.

Best wishes,
Rafter

[Elaphus]

Shetrapper.................that does not seem equitable. I no longer belong to the ATA as I do not live in Alberta any longer, but I did belong to it for 10 years before I moved. In all fairness the ATA is one of the better trappers associations in Canada. They all have their problems to be sure, but doesn't everything? My advice is to continue pursuing this issue and make things happen. My wife traps and she would not stand for that either.

On the subject of 'trap line tours'. These are nothing new really. I first saw these being offered by several outfitters I knew in British Columbia close to 20 years ago. Make no mistake, these guys were trappers and ran their lines all winter. They were also outfitters and these tours were offered as a way to try and make a few extra bucks during the winter to help maintain and use the infrastructure during the winter.

Others saw the ads and it has slowly mushroomed and spread out over the years.

There is a demand for it, although I suspect there are way more guys offering these packages than clients actively looking for the service. Nevertheless I know a chap from Illinois that has gone on two or three of them in BC and Alaska. He enjoys them and it is an unusual winter outing for him.........it has also given him a new appreciation of what trappers do, how they feel about the resource and the work involved.

It is always pretty easy to find the negative with anything.......I am guilty of that on a regular basis..........but that is one thing to consider. Those who do go on a trap line tour may become ambassadors for the industry and way of life.

There are always issues, and there are always some with hidden agendas. It is the nature of the beast. But really, I do not view trap line tours as any kind of a threat that is going to affect many in any kind of meaningful way, other than being perceived as a irritant.

I lived in areas where they were being conducted. The trapper was on his line and it really didn't have any affect on me.........other than there were a couple more people in the bush that I knew were there but never saw.

[Rafter]

I am suprised some outfitters haven't responded to this yet. I guess Mr. Bildson has a different vision for the future of traplines. As he says, "As long as it's legal...we can do it...end of story":rolleye2::rolleye2::rolleye2::huh::huh:

I wish more people would put there two bits in here and voice their opinions. I don't want this thread to die just yet. Doesn't anyone have comments on proxy voting, building a 500K+ store when times are in financial ruin, or trapper education...how that money should be spent... promoting public education vs trapper education through courses, advanced courses???....there are lots of topics to discuss and start new threads on here and get some ideas flowing.


Now thanks to Mr. Bildson and his pm's my fire is lit. I have some queries into the Ministers Office and waiting for their response.

RedGreen,

Some of my opinions are as follows:

Proxy voting is a very successful way of allowing people to vote that are spread out all over the country. Timing and travel and costs prevent or discourage many people from partaking in exercising their right to vote. Many organizations use proxy voting as a means to get higher participation in their voting. You want people to vote then make it efficient and inexpensive! I believe that most people agree that trapping is not a huge money maker in these times.

I am not against investing resources in a building. However, unless a realistic feasibility study is performed and proves that the $500,000.00 initial capital cost is a sound investment then the project should not go ahead. I do question the feasibilty of a new building. What revenues will be generated to give a return on the investment? Simply put is there a business plan? Can members review it? Will there be a proxy vote on it so that all members can have their input?

The DAO spooks me a little as I question if we can govern ourselves. Do we have the expertise, the maturity, the funding, the structure, and a constitution in place for such a venture. Again have all the trappers from accross the Province had meaningful consultation with the ATA Leadership regarding self governance? I really advocate for self government but it is a big big step. I suggest the ATA steps back a bit on the DAO until full meaningful consultation with all trappers in the Province take place. I really appreciate the efforts of all the leaders of the ATA but the DAO is a huge undertaking and I do not believe all trappers in the Province understand or know about it.

Trapper education is a must for new trappers in my books. It should be self funded by the participants.

Public education is vital to the future of the trapping industry, not just in Alberta, but world wide. In the Yukon for example the importance and craft of trapping is taught in schools. ( Perhaps the Alberta SRD Minister can fund trapper education in schools ) Main stream society needs to understand Canads's oldest industry, the reason for trapping today, humane trapping methods employed, lifestlye, preservation of heritage, etc...etc... Do trappers in Alberta know that trapping is not allowed in Colorado anymore??? Why??? Due to an uninformed/uneducated public that votes!!!!!

Thanks,
Rafter

[Rafter]

Shetrapper.................that does not seem equitable. I no longer belong to the ATA as I do not live in Alberta any longer, but I did belong to it for 10 years before I moved. In all fairness the ATA is one of the better trappers associations in Canada. They all have their problems to be sure, but doesn't everything? My advice is to continue pursuing this issue and make things happen. My wife traps and she would not stand for that either.

On the subject of 'trap line tours'. These are nothing new really. I first saw these being offered by several outfitters I knew in British Columbia close to 20 years ago. Make no mistake, these guys were trappers and ran their lines all winter. They were also outfitters and these tours were offered as a way to try and make a few extra bucks during the winter to help maintain and use the infrastructure during the winter.

Others saw the ads and it has slowly mushroomed and spread out over the years.

There is a demand for it, although I suspect there are way more guys offering these packages than clients actively looking for the service. Nevertheless I know a chap from Illinois that has gone on two or three of them in BC and Alaska. He enjoys them and it is an unusual winter outing for him.........it has also given him a new appreciation of what trappers do, how they feel about the resource and the work involved.

It is always pretty easy to find the negative with anything.......I am guilty of that on a regular basis..........but that is one thing to consider. Those who do go on a trap line tour may become ambassadors for the industry and way of life.

There are always issues, and there are always some with hidden agendas. It is the nature of the beast. But really, I do not view trap line tours as any kind of a threat that is going to affect many in any kind of meaningful way, other than being perceived as a irritant.

I lived in areas where they were being conducted. The trapper was on his line and it really didn't have any affect on me.........other than there were a couple more people in the bush that I knew were there but never saw.

Elaphus

Good Post!

Thanks,
Rafter

[THEB]

Quote from ATA constitution


Voted on and changed by the voting members at the Lac La Biche AGM in 2004


1. REGULAR MEMBERS are those who are actively engaged in the business of trapping and hold a valid and subsisting Alberta license to do so as well as a full regular membership in the Association. Regular members have voting privileges and full rights of discussion at all general meetings of the Association. Voting privileges and the right to hold office are granted only to Regular Members except as outlined in sub-section 2 of 6 of Section III

[bullgetter]

I believe the vote in GP was fair and have no issues with the outcome. At this point in time I'm thinking a proxy vote should be done. This way when the proxy vote goes in favor of the DAO no one has the right to bitch.
The ATA does not have the information about DAO's locked in a vault somewhere. The info is out there if you take the time to find and read it.
Remember the vote was to persue developing a DAO proposal not for mass implementation of a plan that has not even been drafted yet.

[fjhoward]

I believe the vote in GP was fair and have no issues with the outcome. At this point in time I'm thinking a proxy vote should be done. This way when the proxy vote goes in favor of the DAO no one has the right to bitch.
The ATA does not have the information about DAO's locked in a vault somewhere. The info is out there if you take the time to find and read it.
Remember the vote was to persue developing a DAO proposal not for mass implementation of a plan that has not even been drafted yet.

I think you nailed it.

[Rafter]

I believe the vote in GP was fair and have no issues with the outcome. At this point in time I'm thinking a proxy vote should be done. This way when the proxy vote goes in favor of the DAO no one has the right to bitch.
The ATA does not have the information about DAO's locked in a vault somewhere. The info is out there if you take the time to find and read it.
Remember the vote was to persue developing a DAO proposal not for mass implementation of a plan that has not even been drafted yet.

Bullgetter,

Could you please direct some of us who are having trouble finding the info.

I looked on the ATA website but couldn't find it there. As I am not good with researching info over the net any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Glad to see that you arein favor of a proxy vote.

Thanks,
Rafter

[redgreen]

elaphus

good post!

Thanks,
rafter

x100

[redgreen]

Quote from ATA constitution


Voted on and changed by the voting members at the Lac La Biche AGM in 2004


1. REGULAR MEMBERS are those who are actively engaged in the business of trapping and hold a valid and subsisting Alberta license to do so as well as a full regular membership in the Association. Regular members have voting privileges and full rights of discussion at all general meetings of the Association. Voting privileges and the right to hold office are granted only to Regular Members except as outlined in sub-section 2 of 6 of Section III

Thanks very much for clarifying this. To quote the bylaw of our Assoiciation, "and hold a valid and subsiting Alberta license" ...that means that shetrapper was licenced under ASRD and should have been able to vote, thus making the vote in GP not legal under ATA bylaws. I agree that a new vote should be held by presence and proxy at this years AGM and whatever the outcome it is DEFINATELY the members wishes and certainly I would support the TRUE majority vote in our membership.

[gibb]

http://www.albertatrappers.com/aboutUs/dao/daoFAQs.pdf
1. Does a need really exist
for a DAO?
Absolutely.
The dramatic increase in development
and exploration for
energy resources will continue.
New technology and the price
of fuel have made any deposit
of gas or oil a profitable venture.
The intensity of development
will increase probably for
another fifty years. I was told
“You ain’t seen nothing yet”.
Believe it.
If trappers cannot unite and
support a common set of standards
and goals now, the future
for trapping, in the face of all
this activity, will be bleak. It
has been suggested that trapping
should go to a non – tenured
system (no registered trap
lines) in the heavy oil and gas
areas of the Province (east half
, central and foothills).

2. What will happen the
Cabin Policy?
Currently a policy exists that
defines how big and how many
cabins a trapper may have.
Some choose to ignore the
policy and build outside the
standard. Trapper cabins are
for the business of trapping not
recreating. There has been little
or no enforcement/education of
this policy is. A recent review
of the policy suggested minor
changes but the size of the
main cabin remains 24’ X 24’.
Line cabins and sheds are still
allowed but at spacing that supports
trapping activity not recreation.
Trappers that chose to
ignore the policy make it difficult
for all trappers. Cabins will
be brought into compliance (at
the RFMA holders cost) upon
transferral. New cabins must
follow the policy. The crown
has the right to deal with violations
and they will.

3. How does a DAO affect
Compensation?
A sore point for trappers and
industry, compensation under
the DAO will be reformed and
standardized. Firstly, a trapper
must be active to be considered
for compensation. To be
considered an active trapper,
a management plan must be
completed and submitted annually
to the DAO. The DAO
will review the plan and enter
the information into the trapper
database. This plan will
include fur harvest records and
receipts, biological information,
a detailed map indicating
trails, bait sites, cabins, mineral
licks, and historical sites (if
any). This plan is your bargaining
position with industry.
Assets of traplines will be given
a set value i.e. so much for bait
sites, trails, etc. These values
will be developed by trappers
and industry. A standardized
list of asset values will allow
industry to know what their
costs will be as well as the active
trapper will know what to
claim.
By streamlining the compensation
process it will be expedient,
equitable and transparent
for both trappers and industry.
It is a challenging time to be
in the trapping industry. All
trappers need to know what
resources may be on their line.
Speak with the forestry and energy
folks and ask what their
plans are. For trappers to exist
in 21st century Alberta we have
to get along with all the people
on the land.
Mark Spafford
Zone 4 director
DAO Steering committee
The Delegated
Authority Order
(DAO)
Frequently Asked Questions

[gibb]

http://www.albertatrappers.com/aboutUs/aboutUsDAO.html

[redgreen]

http://www.albertatrappers.com/aboutUs/aboutUsDAO.html

Sorry, but I know this has been up for some time but it's pretty vague, membership need more information...If the author of this is leading the charge for the MOU/DAO perhaps we can get a detailed plan, timeline and business plan via him on this forum.

[Rafter]

http://www.albertatrappers.com/aboutUs/dao/daoFAQs.pdf
1. Does a need really exist
for a DAO?
Absolutely.
The dramatic increase in development
and exploration for
energy resources will continue.
New technology and the price
of fuel have made any deposit
of gas or oil a profitable venture.
The intensity of development
will increase probably for
another fifty years. I was told
“You ain’t seen nothing yet”.
Believe it.
If trappers cannot unite and
support a common set of standards
and goals now, the future
for trapping, in the face of all
this activity, will be bleak. It
has been suggested that trapping
should go to a non – tenured
system (no registered trap
lines) in the heavy oil and gas
areas of the Province (east half
, central and foothills).

2. What will happen the
Cabin Policy?
Currently a policy exists that
defines how big and how many
cabins a trapper may have.
Some choose to ignore the
policy and build outside the
standard. Trapper cabins are
for the business of trapping not
recreating. There has been little
or no enforcement/education of
this policy is. A recent review
of the policy suggested minor
changes but the size of the
main cabin remains 24’ X 24’.
Line cabins and sheds are still
allowed but at spacing that supports
trapping activity not recreation.
Trappers that chose to
ignore the policy make it difficult
for all trappers. Cabins will
be brought into compliance (at
the RFMA holders cost) upon
transferral. New cabins must
follow the policy. The crown
has the right to deal with violations
and they will.

3. How does a DAO affect
Compensation?
A sore point for trappers and
industry, compensation under
the DAO will be reformed and
standardized. Firstly, a trapper
must be active to be considered
for compensation. To be
considered an active trapper,
a management plan must be
completed and submitted annually
to the DAO. The DAO
will review the plan and enter
the information into the trapper
database. This plan will
include fur harvest records and
receipts, biological information,
a detailed map indicating
trails, bait sites, cabins, mineral
licks, and historical sites (if
any). This plan is your bargaining
position with industry.
Assets of traplines will be given
a set value i.e. so much for bait
sites, trails, etc. These values
will be developed by trappers
and industry. A standardized
list of asset values will allow
industry to know what their
costs will be as well as the active
trapper will know what to
claim.
By streamlining the compensation
process it will be expedient,
equitable and transparent
for both trappers and industry.
It is a challenging time to be
in the trapping industry. All
trappers need to know what
resources may be on their line.
Speak with the forestry and energy
folks and ask what their
plans are. For trappers to exist
in 21st century Alberta we have
to get along with all the people
on the land.
Mark Spafford
Zone 4 director
DAO Steering committee
The Delegated
Authority Order
(DAO)
Frequently Asked Questions

Gibb,

Thanks for steering me in the right direction.

Quick comment to everyone regarding Trapper Compensation. The way of life for a trapper is not addressed. This is extremely important to me. What is the value when a resource exploiter comes in and disrupts our way of life. I think everyone realizes that the trapper is not out on the land for the money in these times but there is an adverse impact on way of life.

Thanks,
Rafter

[bullgetter]

Bullgetter,

Could you please direct some of us who are having trouble finding the info.

I looked on the ATA website but couldn't find it there. As I am not good with researching info over the net any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Glad to see that you arein favor of a proxy vote.

Thanks,
Rafter

Heres the direct link:
http://www.albertatrappers.com/aboutUs/aboutUsDAO.html

[THEB]

Thanks very much for clarifying this. To quote the bylaw of our Assoiciation, "and hold a valid and subsiting Alberta license" ...that means that shetrapper was licenced under ASRD and should have been able to vote, thus making the vote in GP not legal under ATA bylaws. I agree that a new vote should be held by presence and proxy at this years AGM and whatever the outcome it is DEFINATELY the members wishes and certainly I would support the TRUE majority vote in our membership.



redgreen
Quote from ASRD

The spouse or a child (under 18 years of age) of the holder of any Registered Fur Management Area licence may hunt and trap fur-bearing animals within the fur management area without a Registered Fur Management Licence. Harvests by these persons must also be included in the annual report completed by the appropriate licence holder.


How can shetrapper be a LICENCE TRAPPER? She can hunt or trap on the spouse's RFMA but she don't hold a valid licence. In the ATA Policy it states you must hold a valid licence.

[Rafter]

Heres the direct link:
http://www.albertatrappers.com/aboutUs/aboutUsDAO.html

Thanks Bullgetter, Rafter

[zepf]

....and the lawyers get richer ...and the trappers get poorer...:evilgrin:

[Brian Bildson]

President & Exec meeting on April 18th. in Westlock. Make sure you forward any questions to your own executive for the meeting. Our Grande Prairie is having a meeting on the 15th. I'm hoping that if you care enough about the issues you'll care enough to ask the folks at the top.

[redgreen]

President & Exec meeting on April 18th. in Westlock. Make sure you forward any questions to your own executive for the meeting. Our Grande Prairie is having a meeting on the 15th. I'm hoping that if you care enough about the issues you'll care enough to ask the folks at the top.

Brian is right here, we need a good turnout and a prepared list of pertinent questions so hopefully some facts will emerge. I believe there are two people per local allowed to be in attendance to allow a good flow of info. Hopefully we will get an agenda soon. In my opinion it would be a good idea if locals close to each other exchange their ideas and points prior to the Presidents meeting to assist in using the time period for the meeting effectively.

[FastElk]

I believe the vote in GP was fair and have no issues with the outcome.

I don't see how you could possibly think that vote was fair...I certainly don't. There was only a smattering of trappers there compared to the amount of trappers in Alberta. And alot of members weren't allowed to vote....

At this point in time I'm thinking a proxy vote should be done. This way when the proxy vote goes in favor of the DAO no one has the right to bitch.
The ATA does not have the information about DAO's locked in a vault somewhere. The info is out there if you take the time to find and read it.
Remember the vote was to persue developing a DAO proposal not for mass implementation of a plan that has not even been drafted yet.

if the vote was to persue a DAO proposal, why has the plan not been drafted yet?

[Dennis W]

You all seem to have a lot of time on your hands. When do you trap? With this much spare time please come to the meeting on April 18 in Westlock. It is open to everyone I believe. I will be there as trapping is very important to me. I make a large part of my yearly income trapping.

[FastElk]

You all seem to have a lot of time on your hands. When do you trap? With this much spare time please come to the meeting on April 18 in Westlock. It is open to everyone I believe. I will be there as trapping is very important to me. I make a large part of my yearly income trapping.

2 people per local allowed to attend

[Brian Bildson]

FastElk I'm sure you're welcome at the meeting, call Westlock to confirm, but my understanding is that there is an open door policy to all ATA members. You can ask your draft question there, or if you can't make it refer your question to the executive of your own local who should be in attendence.

[FastElk]

FastElk I'm sure you're welcome at the meeting, call Westlock to confirm, but my understanding is that there is an open door policy to all ATA members. You can ask your draft question there, or if you can't make it refer your question to the executive of your own local who should be in attendence.

I doubt they would turn anyone away, but the letter our local received very clearly stated, 2 representitives per local

[Brian Bildson]

FastElk I think the concern is more that there is a minimum of 2 members at least, not a maximum. I've checked and you and any ATA member is welcome.

[redgreen]

FastElk I think the concern is more that there is a minimum of 2 members at least, not a maximum. I've checked and you and any ATA member is welcome.

That's good Brian, but alot of Locals were confused. I think we would have had an even larger turnout with your scenario.

[FastElk]

Okay, now I'm compelled to add to this thread. As a registered trapper, I don't see any benefit to paying $500 (or more) per year to renew my right to trap. Especially since no one can explain the benefits of a DAO to me in simple, layman's terms. Enough of the politician double talk. The pro DAO people can now get off the fence and lay it out. Is this new DAO thing a scheme for those who want to do trapline excursions in addition to trapping? What is the REAL agenda? This is one trapper who is opposed to the DAO, because quite frankly, I don't know what it entails other than costing me a lot of money. My favorite motto is;
"when in doubt, throw it out"

Funny....there has been no response to this letter