Report a poacher Satellite phone sign out idea

[Sundancefisher]

What do you guys think about this idea.

I was at Bear Pond fishing yesterday when I saw two young adult males catching arctic grayling and hauling them up into the rocks. The grayling were getting dropped on the rocks and clearly treated badly for a catch and release lake. At the end of the day I saw they had kept some and even brought a filleting knife.

There is no cell service and when I left the lake they ran for their car.

IF Fish and Wildlife had sat phones to borrow that only dialed them or emergency services that could really help stop poaching.

Any thoughts?

[Okotokian]

How long could you keep the phone? :)

Don't see it working. Govt doesn't have $ to have a thousand sat phones sitting around for anyone who happens to venture into the wilderness, never mind all the administration, deposits, etc.. Heck, I'd never buy a Spot, I'd just take one of their sat phones for free. Unfortunately I don't see a solution other than taking pictures and getting a license number.

Bear is a little place. Can't have people hauling fish out of there or soon there won't be any. It's precarious enough as it is.

[pinelakeperch]

I wish they had a text or email service. It would really help with anonymity.

[Okotokian]

I wish they had a text or email service. It would really help with anonymity.

RAP@ab-conservation.com

Might not be as fast as it isn't specifically designed to report. But emailing or texting is never going to be as fast or immediate as phoning and talking.

And do we know for a fact that you can't make an anonymous phone report? Many reporting hotlines have that capability, don't get your name if you don't want to give it.

[RavYak]

I wish they had a text or email service. It would really help with anonymity.

Why would you want to be anonymous when you get a cash reward... Not like they tell the people caught who told on them...

[ROA]

My thoughts? Buy your own.

[pinelakeperch]

As far as anonymity, I'm referring to when you want to report an infraction and you're the only other fisherman in the area.

[RavYak]

As far as anonymity, I'm referring to when you want to report an infraction and you're the only other fisherman in the area.

How does text or email help this?

[pinelakeperch]

How does text or email help this?

It's a little less conspicuous to be looking down at your phone than it is to call RAP 20 feet away from the guy or while sitting in your car.

I've mentioned this to RAP and they've told me it's been requested many times.

[RavYak]

It's a little less conspicuous to be looking down at your phone than it is to call RAP 20 feet away from the guy or while sitting in your car.

I've mentioned this to RAP and they've told me it's been requested many times.

I don't think it is conspicuous at all sitting in your car or going for a walk. Lots of reasons a guy would want to have a private conversation.

If you are the only ones there they will probably know or think you ratted them out anyways rather it be by call, text or whatever. If it was only us I would probably wouldn't stick around till they were checked.

[FlyTheory]

Pre-programmed setting on your SPOT?

[Sundancefisher]

My thoughts? Buy your own.

Don't use it enough. $500 to buy a phone. $200/month unlimited time.

Charge more for infractions and put some into this.

People can sign a simple contract to look after it. Return it the next day.

Likely people know where the worst spots are...no cell service is probably a factor. Had I a phone I could of called.

It is just a though after all. Even if a phone was used more sparingly you could get a cheaper minutes plan.

They could also manage stopping personal use.

They can also control who gets it on a repeat basis.

[Sundancefisher]

I don't think it is conspicuous at all sitting in your car or going for a walk. Lots of reasons a guy would want to have a private conversation.

If you are the only ones there they will probably know or think you ratted them out anyways rather it be by call, text or whatever. If it was only us I would probably wouldn't stick around till they were checked.

At the other end of the lake I could of had a conversation on the phone.

Just a though. This lake can't support poaching. Many others in the same boat have similar problems.

[Sundancefisher]

How long could you keep the phone? :)

Don't see it working. Govt doesn't have $ to have a thousand sat phones sitting around for anyone who happens to venture into the wilderness, never mind all the administration, deposits, etc.. Heck, I'd never buy a Spot, I'd just take one of their sat phones for free. Unfortunately I don't see a solution other than taking pictures and getting a license number.

Bear is a little place. Can't have people hauling fish out of there or soon there won't be any. It's precarious enough as it is.

Do you need a thousand or just 5 in southern Alberta. Just word getting around remote lake could have a sat phone near by could deter some.

Most cases foothills and mountain lakes lack cell service.

[Sundancefisher]

Excellent idea, highly unlikely to happen, imagine the cost of the phone, more than the price of the ticket.

How about you take the vehicle registration, photos / video and phone F&W when you get back into range?

F&W are often miles away and can't get to the poacher in time (unless you're at Pigeon of course :-) )

Had I seen their car I would of. They ran off as soon as we left the water.

[huntsfurfish]

Don't use it enough. $500 to buy a phone. $200/month unlimited time.

Charge more for infractions and put some into this.

People can sign a simple contract to look after it. Return it the next day.

Likely people know where the worst spots are...no cell service is probably a factor. Had I a phone I could of called.

It is just a though after all. Even if a phone was used more sparingly you could get a cheaper minutes plan.

They could also manage stopping personal use.

They can also control who gets it on a repeat basis.

How bout a hotline right at the lake, dials only to FW.:)

[RavYak]

Too much cost and too many issues with such a program. If you see someone poaching at a lake and no cell reception your best bet is to try and get pictures/video of them breaking the law and get a photo of their license plate etc so they can be tracked down.

You say you saw them dropping the grayling, having a fillet knife etc. Did you ever comment to them about it being catch and release and to try and handle them more carefully?

If I see someone breaking the regulations I almost always confront them(politely) and make them aware of the regulations. Often times it is an honest mistake and even if it is on purpose they will usually stop or leave(haven't had anyone blatantly break regulations after I tell them about it).

There are instances a person should just phone RAP but that is when it is obvious they are blatantly choosing to disregard the regulations(and when you have the cell service etc).

[Brandon5555]

Mount a satellite phone on a pole. Or near the parking area. Really not that hard. And it's pretty well known that grayling are a C&R fish. Considering there's zero retention limit signs usually posted and those ponds

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

[Sundancefisher]

Too much cost and too many issues with such a program. If you see someone poaching at a lake and no cell reception your best bet is to try and get pictures/video of them breaking the law and get a photo of their license plate etc so they can be tracked down.

You say you saw them dropping the grayling, having a fillet knife etc. Did you ever comment to them about it being catch and release and to try and handle them more carefully?

If I see someone breaking the regulations I almost always confront them(politely) and make them aware of the regulations. Often times it is an honest mistake and even if it is on purpose they will usually stop or leave(haven't had anyone blatantly break regulations after I tell them about it).

There are instances a person should just phone RAP but that is when it is obvious they are blatantly choosing to disregard the regulations(and when you have the cell service etc).

Yes. I explained the grayling are rare and easy to catch. They said they like to kill what they catch. I said the reason there are so many is because it is catch and release. They said the reason they came was there were so many.

I explained proper catch and release. Then saw them doing it again. Clearly looking to bonk.

I was helping my buddy with casting advice. They asked for help. I said sure if they in turn practice safe catch and release.

They agreed. I moved to the other end of the lake. When we left to leave. They ran out but not before grabbing a stringer of grayling hidden under a bush on the other side of the dam.

We had no chance to get license numbers.

[Bemoredog]

Wow. Dicks.

I go here sometimes and so does another angler I know. Do you have a description of these *******es so we can keep our eyes open?

[Okotokian]

Do you need a thousand or just 5 in southern Alberta. Just word getting around remote lake could have a sat phone near by could deter some.

Most cases foothills and mountain lakes lack cell service.

So the person would pick it up in the morning, and bring it back before the office closes in the afternoon? And what if they don't? And how would you know where the person is actually going? maybe I'm going on a hike nowhere near any lake, but I'd like to have a sat phone. Do you get a deposit to cover the value of the phone? People going to cough that up? And insurance too incase it's damaged? And what about the 20 people who come by only to be told the phone is already out? There are just WAY too many variables to make a "drop on by and grab a phone and hopefully you can be our eyes" system work.

Maybe better to develop a "civilian deputy" F&W program where you train civilians who are out in the wilderness a lot, sort of like a community watch patrol. It might make sense to give THEM sat phones.

Hey, you asked. :)

[Sundancefisher]

Wow. Dicks.

I go here sometimes and so does another angler I know. Do you have a description of these *******es so we can keep our eyes open?

One guy said he lived in the Signal Hill area. Both guys in their early 20's. I was trying to give the shore guys lots of casting room so I was not close enough to ID them as they took off so fast.

[Sundancefisher]

So the person would pick it up in the morning, and bring it back before the office closes in the afternoon? And what if they don't? And how would you know where the person is actually going? maybe I'm going on a hike nowhere near any lake, but I'd like to have a sat phone. Do you get a deposit to cover the value of the phone? People going to cough that up? And insurance too incase it's damaged? And what about the 20 people who come by only to be told the phone is already out? There are just WAY too many variables to make a "drop on by and grab a phone and hopefully you can be our eyes" system work.

Maybe better to develop a "civilian deputy" F&W program where you train civilians who are out in the wilderness a lot, sort of like a community watch patrol. It might make sense to give THEM sat phones.

Hey, you asked. :)

If I want to borrow a phone for Saturday I make arrangements to pick it up Friday night. I list which lake I am going to. If a high risk lake or a lake F&W want a report on you can grab the phone. They cover the costs through the Report a Poacher program. Phone gets returned Sunday.

They know where they want some additional eyes open. Try a test with one phone. Catch one guy poaching could pay for the phone. The deterent could help protect a valuable fishery.

I don't see the variable issue like you do. You don't need to be everything for everybody. You just need to try something to better protect more remote fisheries.

[RavYak]

And what if someone steals the phone, breaks the phone, loses the phone?

Who does the work for paying the bills, maintaining paperwork, checking to make sure a person didn't break it, tracking down phones that weren't returned etc?

There are tons of little hidden costs and issues with a program like this that it would never work properly. The costs wouldn't be recuperated with single catches, I believe a lot of that money doesn't even stay in F&W hands and it would have to be a government set up and approved program meaning it would be stupidly handled and over priced...

There are many other ways to more effectively address such situations. Even phoning rap just giving as much information as you can will help because those guys probably do the same thing semi regularly.

[Sundancefisher]

You're likely going to have a hard time convincing F&W given the administration costs and no proven pay back.

How about this, approach F&W/RAP and tell them of your idea. Assuming they don't bite, then ask them if you started the program yourself, would they cover your costs through RAP for every fine they get through your program.

The cost to you would be about $1000 per phone per year for the contract, phone maybe free depending on provider, dunno how you'd lock them down to certain numbers (you'll need to find out). Figure out your cost for insurance, lets say $200 per phone per year. Figure out what your admin costs to get the phones to these people, lets estimate $800 per phone per year to break even + a small amount of profit. So lets say $2000 per phone per year.

Multiply by 5 to get a small starting pool = $10,000. The remainder of the reward goes to the borrower.

So that will require an investment from you for $10,000 for the first year (which you should be prepared to lose if the idea doesn't work), and to be successful, you'll likely need 3-4 successful "big" fines per year per phone and the cooperation of people to go through the effort of picking up a satellite phone. I also recommend looking through the fine schedule. Are you prepared to put that much into the idea?

You won't know what you get out of it until you try it. They could lease for a year.

[Sundancefisher]

And what if someone steals the phone, breaks the phone, loses the phone?

Who does the work for paying the bills, maintaining paperwork, checking to make sure a person didn't break it, tracking down phones that weren't returned etc?

There are tons of little hidden costs and issues with a program like this that it would never work properly. The costs wouldn't be recuperated with single catches, I believe a lot of that money doesn't even stay in F&W hands and it would have to be a government set up and approved program meaning it would be stupidly handled and over priced...

There are many other ways to more effectively address such situations. Even phoning rap just giving as much information as you can will help because those guys probably do the same thing semi regularly.

Lots of interesting questions. Which the benefits and disadvantages could be solved with a trial. One phone. Any value seen after 1 year? Assume just 50-100 trips.

[RavYak]

Also who would even bother with the hassle of getting ahold of one of these phones?

If you are going to such a spot that you are sure there would be poaching at on any given day you go fishing there then that just tells you how poorly the regs are actually enforced at some of these spots.

If you really want to do this I would just suggest getting ahold of your own satellite phone and then go searching for people to report. RAP already gives rewards so if you know of some good stings you could probably pay for the phone and then some maybe.

I honestly think a program like you have proposed has 0% chance of ever even being tried. This is the government we are talking about, I am pretty sure they are willing to put up with a a bit of poaching rather then create new largely unnecessary programs like this.

[Bemoredog]

Sundance, the situation you were in was a difficult one. I think you did the right thing and I would reckon you were just being a good guy and giving those two clowns the benefit of the doubt. I'm not really sure you could have done anything differently while still remaining a reasonable person. It's unfortunate nobody else on the shore did anything. We all have cell phones, and taking a picture or video of someone is a pretty huge deterrent. Then at least they might think twice about doing it again and the fish and fur guys have a description.

The other thing I thought of here is simply to not give anyone the benefit of the doubt any longer. This came up on the forums a few months back and there was quite some debate about it. See questionable behavior? Just call it in. If that means getting off the lake, taking pictures of all the license plates in the parking lot, and driving 50 km's for cell service, maybe that's what has to happen. Poachers have no sense of rules or fairness, so it's illogical to provide them with any sort of reciprocal accommodation.

I personally don't like taking this tact, but more and more I'm thinking we have to play hardball.

I'm not sure the satellite phone thing would work for a number of reasons already raised. The notion of deputizing certain individuals in various areas who are regularly out at remote lakes and giving them phones seems more feasible. I also wonder if there's something that could be done with installing outdoor cameras near access to remote lakes even just to take stills of people arriving and departing. That way if something occurs the perps could be IDed at a later date.

[RavYak]

I also wonder if there's something that could be done with installing outdoor cameras near access to remote lakes even just to take stills of people arriving and departing. That way if something occurs the perps could be IDed at a later date.

AEP won't even pay to put up and maintain signs. No way sat phones or cameras will ever be in the budget.

[Dr.Shortington]

Do you have to hike to get to bear pond?

[KinAlberta]

Do you need a thousand or just 5 in southern Alberta. Just word getting around remote lake could have a sat phone near by could deter some.

Most cases foothills and mountain lakes lack cell service.

I agree. I've always like the idea of random reinforcement. They'd only need a few phones (they must use some already), recruit reliable volunteers from all around the province and periodically put them into play.

That and calling in the drones may do a world of good.

[Sundancefisher]

No, the idea was for you to try it, not me :-)

I was being figuratively.

[Sundancefisher]

I agree. I've always like the idea of random reinforcement. They'd only need a few phones (they must use some already), recruit reliable volunteers from all around the province and periodically put them into play.

That and calling in the drones may do a world of good.

Random scares poachers more. However one could say more random checks by officers. Not likely. Less likely than having a loaner sat phone.

I think spending say $2000 on a phone and minutes in one year would likely result in making more money. Maybe a sat company would donate one for promotional purposes.

The guy saying I should do it to make money assumes I am fishing all the time and at high fish waters with no cell coverage.

Again. Thinking the phone would be best served in high risk areas with no cell coverage.

I don't have 100 days to spend fishing so wouldn't make me money. However some lakes with food access do get patrolled better.

It would be interesting to see what F&W officers say are the top poached water bodies in Alberta.

Maybe remote lakes have less poaching pressure. My personal experience seeing bait bags at mountain lakes says otherwise.

[Daceminnow]

Sunny. For future reference you can get out via cell phone at the top of the hump minutes up the road from the Bear Pond parking lot. Fish and Wildlife were parked up there Saturday when I came over. I have also seen several Forestry vehicles up there and on the trunk road the past couple months as well. I'm certain they would have the means and be willing to connect you with F&W to report violators too. Be aware lots of theft happens from that parking lot also. Remote and plenty of weekend warrior traffic on mobile get away units.

Dace

[Sundancefisher]

No I'm suggesting that when/if F&W decline you, you run the business yourself. I.E. You maintain a pool of phones and lend them out to people. Assuming it makes financial sense to you when you look at the numbers.

There are plenty of rental companies. Doesn't make sense. It works as a public service. Not as a business. Report a poacher could pay for it. Someone could make money if you parked at a high offence area and called in poachers all day and they were prosecuted and not released by F&W with a warning.

[Bemoredog]

Sundance...

Why not start a new thread with the voting buttons? See how many people would be willing to go pick up a phone before heading out fishing?

Personally... as in just me, alone, not speaking for others... I'd be unlikely to do this. I'd say 30% of my fishing is spur of the moment (i.e., when I have the time, weather is OK, wife isn't going to lay the guilt on me, etc.). So grabbing a phone in those cases is a definite no go.

In the remainder I'd be unlikely to because I'm already busy enough gathering and organizing my gear, fueling up the boat, charging batteries, loading it up, making sure all doo-dads and gadgets are on board and in working order, checking weather and fishing reports, buying new tackle or bait, packing food and water, making arrangements with anyone who's coming along.... bla bla bla. Point is that the sole aspect of prepping to fish is a major time suck already (and I still regularly forget things!!!). I don't think I can also add in a trip to the nearest fish and fur HQ to get a phone.

If I see someone poaching and I can't call it in I'm going to go talk to them, take pictures/video of their faces/their boat ID, head back to shore and get in my vehicle. Then drive until I can make a call. This might take as much time or more as grabbing a sat phone, but there will be so many times when I grab that sat phone and don't use it. My economist brain says that this is an inefficient allocation of my time.

[Dr.Shortington]

Sorry but it is just not a very good idea. People would probably just end up using the phones for personal reasons haha. Not gonna happen although in a perfect world it would be nice!