Bowhunters Poll - Crossbows Classed as Archery. [Archive]

Blakeinator2

01-02-2007, 10:38 AM

"how hard is it to hold a crossbow to your shoulder? a guy could do it all day long. maybe if the crossbow guys had to load the crossbow once they seen an animal coming in, it might almost equate to being similiar."

Freehand comparison? The compound wins hands down imo...i would lay money i could draw and hold my compound steadier for at least 5 times as long as i could a 10 lb gun of any kind. There's something very solid about holding a compound at full draw and the little hold weight being spread out between both arms and everything in between them too. I'm a @#%$ free hand shot with any kind of gun...i'd be looking for a mono-pod/sticks/bi-pod or something to rest a crossbow on...just like i do anything else with a trigger. But freehand....not even close...i'll take compound over crossbow anyday.

Maybe you want to argue that you can use bi-pods/shooting sticks etc. then?

Then i can argue that it still takes the hunter to get within bow range of the quarry...the TOOL...doesn't magically put the game in the back of your truck. 99% hunter 1% tool.

Just another one of those arguments that in reality is such a small difference its not worth argueing. There are parts of this continent that have introduced the crossbow in with its brother bows and it doesn't make a difference worth talking about.....except that we should put in with the bows asap...thats it.

B

Lol, Sheep beat me to it, pretty quick on the draw this morning.

katts69

01-02-2007, 10:41 AM

how anyone can say they are the same is crap. any of you bowhunters out there know. how many times have you been busted when trying to draw, or drawn back and trying to hold till the animal hits your shooting lane, then had to let down cause your arms were shaking to beat hell. how hard is it to hold a crossbow to your shoulder? a guy could do it all day long. maybe if the crossbow guys had to load the crossbow once they seen an animal coming in, it might almost equate to being similiar. let alone the ability to put 4x rifle scopes on a crossbow. if the want a season of their own so bad, give them a week in december sometime. take care boys, rob

katts69

01-02-2007, 10:52 AM

sheep, do you have the harvest statistics you speak of, if so can you add them to this thread. i would like to see them. i seriously doubt there is as many crossbow hunters as compound and traditional hunters. if the numbers are equal and they are as successful, i guess i dont have an arguement. i never said it would be a breeze either, you are still using an arrow or bolt, not a lead projectile, at over 2500 fps, a lot of your shots are eliminated. example neck, head, at least for the ethical guys. i remember your last article stating that you took a shoulder shot on your mulie doe, you said you knew the crossbow would penetrate and you made the kill. my compound shoots pretty fast with good kinetic, but i dont know to say i would take a shoulder shot as you did, that is obviously another pro for the crossbow user. take care, rob

sheep hunter

01-02-2007, 10:53 AM

I'll have to track them down katts but in Ontario I know that the number of crossbow hunters and the number of vertical bow hunters are virtually identical and the harvest stats are identical too. In many states, the number of crossbow hunters is indeed much lower than the number of vertical bow hunters but again, the harvest statistics (%of animals killed/number of hunters) are virtually identical.

I would have taken the same shot at the doe with my compound bow at the range I was shooting. I see no advantage to the crossbow in that situation. It was a small yearling doe at very close range and I have no doubt that my compound would have provided as good of penetration if not better as it shoots a heavier arrow and broadhead. There really are no performance advantages to the crossbow over modern compound bows.

katts69

01-02-2007, 12:03 PM

sheep, i figured if you had them handy you could post them. i think i can take your word for it.

blake, shooting sticks and bipods have nothing to do with the comparison, and i never said you still didnt have to be a good hunter to get within range.

but like blake said it really isnt worth arguing. the higher powers will decide, and lord knows they always make the right decision, lol. take care boys, rob

Blakeinator2

01-02-2007, 03:20 PM

"but like blake said it really isnt worth arguing"

Yeah. Now we're startin to get it all sorted out!:lol

sheep hunter

01-02-2007, 03:41 PM

Hey katts...if memory serves me right the harvest success rate for both vertical bow and crossbow shooters was 16%.

sportsman

01-02-2007, 03:42 PM

Noting that crossbows and bows both fling arrows at relatively the same speed and have the same effective killing range and therefore calling them equal is inaccurate in my opinion. After those 2 similarities it all becomes differences which are advantages in favour of the crossbow in real life hunting situations.

1. Bows are drawn in the presence of game and are held with muscular power until fired. Crossbows are preloaded and brought to the shoulder and fired as you would do with a rifle. I have shot more game at 40 yards or closer with my rifle than my bow because it is quicker and involves less movement to shoulder a rifle, align crosshairs and fire than draw and anchor a bow, aim, fire.

2. The limbs on a crossbow are horizontal, this gives you more shooting positions/options than with a bow. (ex. you can lay prone on the ground with a crossbow if you wish)

3. The effects of bow hand torque, anchor points, and release (which can have substantial effects on point of arrow impact with a bow) are not issues with a crossbow. The amount of time that must be invested to be accurate past 40 yards with a bow is much greater. The first crossbow I fired was at a 50 yard target. I asked my friend which crosshair on his drop compensating reticle was the one graduated for 50 yards, aimed, fired, and was less than 4 inches from the bullseye. Perhaps I am a gifted crossbow shooter but I doubt it.

Blakeinator2

01-02-2007, 03:59 PM

There is evidence from provinces and states where it was allowed and the kill ratios don't change. The data is out there for you to find...i had links etc. a couple years back. Maybe the thread on the ABA last winter is still findable...it was a doozie and had all that kind of data. Eitherway, the data just goes to show its 99% hunter....1% tool.

So maybe those advantages you listed would help you out? Or someone else...but many can find advantages in the compound vs the crossbow too. How bout a buck fever miss and the critter is still standing there....second shot with a x-bow isn't gonna happen likely. Compounds make second chances much more a reality as they are typically quieter too. There are so many ways to skin the cat...except you still have to get within range and understand you and your game's abilities enough to know how to use whatever bow is in your hands....the guy who does understand the most limitations etc. wins(and its a very low percentage of guys who in that category)....hunter....not tool.

B

sheep hunter

01-02-2007, 04:00 PM

sportsman...those are indeed differences between the two bows and serve as good arguement that the two are different but the fact still remains that those differences don't change harvest success in jurisdictions where both are classified as archery gear.

On the other side of the coin:

1) Compound bows are much quieter and an animal is much less likely to jump the string.

2) Compound bows are much lighter and can be carried for much greater distances with little effort.

3) As a compound bow is held vertically it can be shot from many positions that a crossbow cannot....like in a blind, from behind a tree or other hiding spot.

4) A compound bow is much more compact and easier to stalk with.

They both have their advantages and disadvantages that tend to equalize them when it come to harvest success.

Rob

01-02-2007, 08:26 PM

I heard a story recently of a crossbow hunter who was hiding behind a tree patiently waiting for a decent buck to get within range. When the deer was within thirty yards he slowly pulled out from the tree, took aim and fired. The unfortunate part was that he wasn't far enough away from the tree. The limb of his crossbow struck the tree causing the stock to smack him in the jaw. From what I was told, the guy was almost knocked senseless and nearly had his jaw broken.

To shoot a crossbow from behind any object is tough. You have to get away from the object to make sure the above doesn't happen. Say what you want, but I don't buy the lack of movement argument for a second, nor the more shooting positions. Yes, you probably could lay down, provided there was no grass or anything in the way, but you certainly can't hide behind a tree and fire without making sure your limbs are completely free, much like you could a vertical bow.

grandzillaa

01-03-2007, 02:42 AM

sheep hunter you can add this advantage to the compound bow as well, you don't have to wax the string as much as you do to a crossbow string. I was told by a few archery stores to wax my crossbow string after every 5th shot.

Rackmaster if there was a season for crossbows when would you like it and how would you go about it? Would you take 410 and divide it into two? Exsample 410-A and 410-B, 410-A would be for crossbows only and 410-B for archery. Or if there was a season for crossbows how would these dates sound from Aug.1-24 in wmu's such as 328, 330 and all other wmu's where archery starts on Aug.25, and from Aug 15 to Sept.5 where archery starts on the 7th I believe it is.

Otherwise, I would still put it in the archery season. Plus I would like to see some wmu's have increased seasons as well. Nevertheless a crossbow will never be a rifle, it is not even close.

Blakeintor2, the reason I said that my old bow does 240fps and the 165lb crossbow does 300fps is to show that my old compound is close, and that the crossbow doesn't shoot a bolt any further than a compound bow shots an arrow as some believe. And as you said an arrow that is shot from a compound bow has more hitting power than that of a compound bow. Oh well it makes for good discussion and learning.:D

Rocks

01-03-2007, 02:51 AM

Well, you guys almost had me talked into buying a crossbow and trying it out, until I read the last few posts, then I decided:

It is only as accurate and maybe less accurate than a compound bow;

That the crossbow is much noisier; is more likely to make an animal jump the string;

Is much heavier, and cannot be carried as far;

It can not be shot from as many positions as a vertical bow, ie its harder in a blind, behind a tree and from other hiding spots;

It is more bulky and way harder to stalk with;

It may smack you in the head if you are not careful where you shoot it from;

It requires more maintenance than a vertical bow;

And; from anecdotal information some hunters like them because you can use them while sitting in the drivers seat of a pickup...

So... I already have a compound, I think I'll just stick with it!

sheep hunter

01-03-2007, 02:52 AM

And; from anecdotal information some hunters like them because you can use them while sitting in the drivers seat of a pickup...

LMAO....You crack me up Rocks. That has to be one of the biggest falacies on earth. Unless you own shares in a body shop and a glass shop you don't want to be shooting a crossbow from a vehicle.:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin

On the serious side though a compound does many things as well as a crossbow and some better so there is no reason to switch, other than for an added experience but then again, you really only need one rifle too....lol

61A

01-03-2007, 05:38 AM

Seems like the same arguement from when they were undecided on alowing compounds to be used as traditionals and recurves.:\

209x50cal

01-03-2007, 10:15 AM

And; from anecdotal information some hunters like them because you can use them while sitting in the drivers seat of a pickup...
That is freaking hilarious!! Only someone who has never held a crossbow would believe such BS. My crossbow is wider than my pickup window and because of the little limb problem described by Rob above I'd have to have the butt stock and my shoulder out of the window to clear the truck side and my mirror. Try again.

209x50cal

01-03-2007, 10:18 AM

Seems like the same arguement from when they were undecided on alowing compounds to be used as traditionals and recurves.
Yep, exactly, the compound bow is so much closer in technology and performance to the crossbow than the traditional bows.

sportsman

01-03-2007, 12:50 PM

I am not familiar with harvest percentage differences before / after in areas where they began allowing crossbows but personally there is usually at least 1 instance per year where I would have gotten the shot away had I a crossbow. I was in a portable blind on a field edge last year when a nice whitetail came past on the field, he moved past that shooting window too quickly so I got ready at the next window he should go past. He showed up in that shooting lane about a minute later but must have heard me turning to get my left shoulder pointed towards him. From about 10 yards out he stared into that little window but couldnt make me out I guess. He tolerated me raising my bow to shooting position but bolted when I got to about half draw. If he tolerated the bow being raised I am sure he would have done the same while slowly raising the crossbow stock to my shoulder (if I hadnt shouldered it while waiting for him to enter the second shooting lane).
2 days later on that hunt I had a cow elk inside 10 yards on the field edge I was sitting along. With a dead willow bush jutting out in the field between us I could not get low enough to shoot with my bow, if I had a crossbow and was able to get prone from my kneeling position there was a shooting oppurtunity there as well.

In the controlled environment of shooting at targets on a range (assuming both the bow shooter and crossbow shooter know their stuff) it would be anybodies guess who would win the shooting match, but to take both those guys, put them in hunting situations, and ignore that the crossbow guy doesnt have to draw it in front of his quarry, can squeeze his forestock as tightly as he wants, doesnt have to worry about anchor point, and can shoot in different directions with less body movement, etc, etc, and say they are still equal is being misleading.

I dont know how it worked in Ontario. I guess either no crossbow shooters showed up, or every one of them that did were unsuccesfull at killing anything. Perhaps someone is looking at hunter success percentages rather than total game taken. If in zone A 10 hunters killed 5 moose and in zone B 100 hunters killed 50 moose both hunter success percentages would be 50%, but zone B would have 45 less moose in it at the end of the season and that is the number game managers would look at to decide if restrictions would have to tighten. There are already draw only zones for archery, putting more hunters in the field with a weapon that requires less dedication to become lethal with (along with other advantages) is not going to put any exisiting draw zones back to general zones. It would have the opposite effect.

sheep hunter

01-03-2007, 12:51 PM

sportsman...if my aunt had a penis she'd be my uncle

The point being, it's easy to speculate about things that will never be and the truth is that you have no idea if you could have made those shots or not. Crossbows are awkward to shoot out of a blind, you would also have to be moving so you can speculate all you want but it doesn't make it fact.

As for crossbows being more accurate and shooting more directions with less movement...it just ain't so. I think this subject has been beat to death but in the hands of skilled shooters, range or hunting situation, they are equally accurate....save for at the elite 3D levels where the compound does rise slightly above.

No question that putting more hunters in the field will increase overall harvest numbers and likely draw times will increase in draw areas but aren't we supposed to be promoting hunting in this province???

RollnBurn

01-03-2007, 07:18 PM

I have watched these two threads very closely and am very interested in this topic as i am a crossbow only hunter. I have chosen not to register any firearms and have them in storage instead until they sort that garbage out. I have also had two shoulder surgeries in my right shoulder. I can pull and hold a bow, once or twice, but not enough to get the practice i would need to be comfortable enough to hunt big game. Due to the different range of motion and using both arms i can pull my crossbow approx 10 times before it gets really sore and due to this i split up my practice times and try to get out often for short periods.

I have quickly looked into the disabled permit but it didn't seem like an option and that i wouldn't qualify. I also don't see myself as disabled and therefore don't think i should have to jump through hoops to try to be labeled that way. I currently dodge bullets in my camo during regular season :b and would enjoy the opportunity to join my colleagues in the bow season. I guess you can guess how i voted. Ffffft vs Bang.

I enjoy reading the discussion and can see valid points from both sides and am also glad this discussion has stayed mostly civil and respectfull. ;) I hope my opinion and viewpoint/experiences help add to the discussion.

Rolln

Rackmastr

01-03-2007, 10:46 PM

Rackmaster if there was a season for crossbows when would you like it and how would you go about it? Would you take 410 and divide it into two? Exsample 410-A and 410-B, 410-A would be for crossbows only and 410-B for archery. Or if there was a season for crossbows how would these dates sound from Aug.1-24 in wmu's such as 328, 330 and all other wmu's where archery starts on Aug.25, and from Aug 15 to Sept.5 where archery starts on the 7th I believe it is.

I wouldnt split up 410 or 212 or 248 if I had a choice. I would keep these as "Archery Only" areas. If the government allowed crossbows in archery season, then why split the zone up? That would just be confusing, and 410 is small enough already. If they classify a crossbow into archery season, then its all the same.

I dont really care if they put the crossbow season ahead of the archery season, or if the combine them. I just dont personally classify the crossbow as archery equiptment for personal reasons. Like I said, its the same reason I dont classify a muzzleloader into the category of 'rifles'. They are different, and although we may see a season with both bows and crossbows, they are not the same weapon.

I agree, more hunters is a good thing. I'll never pick up a crossbow myself to hunt with, only because I am a very happy bowhunter, but the more the merrier really.

prairieboy

01-03-2007, 11:47 PM

So how many people that don't currently bowhunt would buy a crossbow if they could use it to hunt during the archery season?I know of a few people myself.Even if the success rate was the same as for archery,it would increase the total number of game animals taken,which would reduce the number of tags available to be drawn for the general season in some zones.

sheep hunter

01-04-2007, 12:27 AM

I think that's a given PB and no one has disputed that but isn't getting hunters spending more time in the field a good thing???

prairieboy

01-04-2007, 01:23 AM

Getting hunters in the field is a good thing,but if the number of tags available for the draws is reduced because of the additional hunters in the archery season,there will be less hunters in the field during the regular season,so there really won't be a big change in the actual number of hunters in the field.In addition,some people will have to wait longer to draw their tags.For that reason,many people will not support the use of crossbows during the archery season.

sheep hunter

01-04-2007, 01:39 AM

You must have just joined in this conversation PB as this has been beat to death. The ABA is very vocally opposed to crossbows because it will reduce their opportunities and increase draw waits for some permits. I don't think anyone has ever said that this will increase the overall number of hunters significantly but it will likely get hunters spending more days in the field and it will boost declining archery hunter numbers. Nothing new in any of that but it certainly appears to be a good thing if you look at the health of hunting in Alberta overall and not just how it will affect you as an individual..

bagwan

01-04-2007, 07:30 PM

I know this subject has been beat to death but again I read Rackmasters argument that he will always be a compound bow shooter and I'd like to remind you that I was once young full of vim and vigor and could run and catch footballs and played centre field and threw baseballs with accuracy and a modicum of success. I now find myself 40 yrs or more your senior and can still draw about 50 lbs but after about three shots pain hits and practice times just won't allow me to hunt with a degree of confidence ergo my bow is for sale. Would I even hunt with a cross bow? I for one don't know but I'm going to miss bow hunting as I quit after trying with a new bow. Bodies and old age can change a lot of the pros and cons of this argument. I for one agree with Sheep and a few other posters. Modify the rules on disability and the problem is solved. That would be short term and add another 40 years to the naysayers and the rules will be the same. Almost like a kid having three parents. Anything is possible.

Rackmastr

01-04-2007, 10:45 PM

Bagwan,
One can never predict the future. I'll hunt with my bow for as long as I can, and I'm no opposed to the crossbow, but for now I have decided that I'll hunt strictly with my bow. I see your point, but didnt think anyone would take my meaning of 'always be a compound hunter' to mean that I had it in stone for my whole life....

archery equipment

01-04-2007, 11:51 PM

why is everyone arguing? a crossbow is a piece of archery equipment plain and simple. I don't see any real big difference. the only reason this argument keeps coming back is because bowhunters (vertical ones) feel like they will lose some hunting opportunities.

a crossbow is a long way off from a firearm but similar to a "vertical" bow. how can anyone not see that? seriously guys I just don't get the arguing when we should all be banding together to keep all forms of hunting alive and well for a long time.

besides, Alberta is way to blessed with wild game to start arguing about lost opportunities.

Rackmastr

01-05-2007, 12:11 AM

a crossbow is a piece of archery equipment plain and simple. I don't see any real big difference. the only reason this argument keeps coming back is because bowhunters (vertical ones) feel like they will lose some hunting opportunities

Actually, I support a crossbow season, and can even support it during the archery season, but I do not come close to classifying the crossbow into the same category as a vertical bow. They're just different, and thats fine.

The muzzleloader is different than the rifle, and people can accept that, so I'm not sure why its a problem to classify the crossbow seperatly from the vertical bow. Its a different tool, with different functions.

Not opposed to a season at all, and actually support it in many ways, but they are not the same tool. Kinda like saying that a screwdriver is a hammer because you can beat it against something. Different tools...different names.....and dont understand why some want them to be 'classed' the same. So sorry, you're wrong by assuming that as a bowhunter I am afraid I'll loose any hunting time. I know I wont, and I'll be glad to have more hunters out there....our weapons will just be different.

sheep hunter

01-05-2007, 12:30 AM

I don't think anyone wants them classed the same Trev...they want the crossbow classified as legal archery equipment just as the long bow, recurve bow and compound bow are. They are all very different but each is legal archery gear. I wouldn't get too hung up on that...

Re: archery equipment

01-05-2007, 12:44 AM

OK dude, I stand corrected. Some bowhunters is what I should have said. I'll take that back.

screwdriver hammer thing is a little far off. muzzleloader is different than the rifle - is it? I see the crossbow more like a bow than a muzzleloader/riffle. what about traditional archery equipment? how come those aren't classified as a different piece of equipment than crossbows? I can use my shotgun to take down a deer during rifle season...why? isn't it a different piece of equipment?

what it comes down to dude is differences in opinion. we could argue till the cows come home.

I think the province should bundle crossbows/trad arch/ and compound bows into a season (whether people see them as different equipment or not) and anything that uses combustion (gunpowder etc) meaning riffles, muzzleloaders, shotguns, canons etc into another season.

maybe that would end the argument and division among hunters.

ah...opinions, opinions...

Re: archery equipment

01-05-2007, 12:48 AM

Well sheep hunter summed it up better than I ever could. I totally agree with what you are saying (sheep). I couldn't make that clear in my post.

209x50cal

01-05-2007, 08:57 AM

Actually, I support a crossbow season, and can even support it during the archery season, but I do not come close to classifying the crossbow into the same category as a vertical bow. They're just different, and thats fine.
But you do see a compound bow fitting in to the same classification as a recurve and traditional bows. When I look at the technology involved and the fact that the trad guys really do "draw in the presence of game" I see the compound and crossbow so much more closely related than the other way around.
I think once the emotional factor is taken out of the equation the crossbow will be reclassified.

sharpstick

01-05-2007, 10:34 AM

209 just wondering when you pull your compound back, before you get in the tree????
When you go "flyfishing" do you cast your fly and maggot out with a spin rod and bobber??
btw just a jab!!

209x50cal

01-05-2007, 11:54 AM

209 just wondering when you pull your compound back, before you get in the tree????
I don't pull a compound bow anymore, I'm one of those that can't through no fault of my own.
I hunted with a bow (recurve first and then compound it is so much easier!) before there was a special season. I got more serious and successful after the special season came in but work, family and mortgages made it impossible to continue on at that level and I quit.
A few years later I had a work place accident, I've had surgery to my right hand and arm and received a disability settlement for my permanent injury. My days shooting a bow are over.
Now I have the time and means to pursue archery again but imagine my surprise when I was told that I didn't qualify for a crossbow permit!
I see my only chance to enjoy archery again is to pursue the reclassifying of the crossbow as archery equipment.

Rackmastr

01-05-2007, 12:56 PM

Yep part of my argument is emotional only, and thats just the side I stand on. Like I said, I dont get hung up on having the season, and would welcome it as part of the archery season, just dont class them in the same group.

Sheep/209, I know you guys arent trying to class them into the same group, so these comments arent really directed at you. Just seems some guys get so hung up on trying to class them as the same when all they really want is the same season. I'm perfectly happy with that....they're just different tools is all. As well, no I dont 'class' the compound with the recurve. For me to do that would be an insult to recurve/long bow shooters. They share the same season, but I personally dont class them the same.

Bigrig, I do think the muzzleloader is much different than the rifle, and would never 'class' them together.

In any event, I support the season, and it seems like all it comes down to for me is the fact that they're not the same, and there are some people that would like to bunch them all together. Thats fine I guess, but just not a personal choice.

Blakeinator2

01-05-2007, 02:52 PM

"Bigrig, I do think the muzzleloader is much different than the rifle, and would never 'class' them together."

I would tend to think the muzzle loader would be the longbow (or recurve) of the gun season. Still goes bang to a couple hundred yrds pretty easy these days apparently. I'll take todays muzzle loader over a shotgun anyday...but both still fit in the rest of the guns.

Hearing 'bangs' out there during the early archery seasons sounds pretty retarded to me.:rolleyes

Some folks really do think the muzzleloader is not a gun i guess? Now that surprises me more than those who don't think the crossbow is a bow!:eek 8o

B

Rackmastr

01-05-2007, 02:53 PM

Blake,
Sorry...where in my post did it say that I thought the muzzleloader should be part of the archery season??

It might sound 'retarded' to you....but I think you're the one who brought it up....

Blakeinator2

01-05-2007, 10:15 PM

Whoops, sorry Trev, i made assumption that that is what you were getting at. My bad. Lol, i like your last line...very nice.;) :lol

So what do you think should be happening for the muzzleloader then? You figure it should get its own slot somewhere? Or am i assuming again? So lets just say my next arguments aren't necessarily directed at you but to anyone else who thinks the muzzleloader is special. Remember, primitive or not...how it actually works in the field is the main argument for the crossbow (ie; kill ratios, ffffft vs bang etc.).

I guess my arguments are for two seasons period. Archery pre-season...which is much longer because less guys do it and harvest ratio is very low with this equipment. Then the general season where everything that goes bang is also allowed...obviously alot more critters die by gun and alot more guys using guns, so safe to say there won't be much game left if they have a longer season than they do now?

Big picture what i see here is everyone wants longer seasons. The muzzleloader thing to me says...'hey this thing is special, and i'm special for using it, and i think there should be a separate season for it, so i can have more time afield...and preferably before the gun guys get going so i can bang what the archery guys couldn't'......At least thats the way i see it.

Anyhow, if you add a couple weeks anywhere for the muzzle loader then might as well take it away from the rest of the gun guys cause the kill ratio between the two won't be too far off each other....it'll just force alot of gun guys to go buy a muzzleloader to have the same length season they had before.

So i ask you, where does the muzzleloader fit? Why not argue it now...it seems so often brought up in the crossbow discussion for some reason? Crossbow is bow, muzzle loader is gun....sounds like two seasons to me. If the crossbow isn't enough of an incentive to the gun guys to take advantage of the earlier season then i don't know what to say?....give an inch and they wanna take a mile and throw a gun into the mix? That was merely my point....how retarded is that? I dunno man...sounds pretty retarded to me.:p ;)

B

Rackmastr

01-05-2007, 11:53 PM

I think it would be great to see more muzzleloader only seasons....not sure if it will happen or not, but I think it should be happening.

Piglet

01-06-2007, 02:01 AM

Hey guys just thought I would check in on the discussion and poll.

I have been keeping track of the poll and find it interesting that the Nos have always been just slightly ahead of the yes choice.

Tad bit obvious that someone is doctoring the vote.

Oh well that's what you get with open forums I guess.

Keep up the discussion and have fun.

Suka

01-06-2007, 09:23 AM

I think it shouldn't be archery season, it should be "primitive weapons" season.
It also shouldn't be 3 months long.

sharpstick

01-06-2007, 10:59 AM

Piglet

01-06-2007, 01:22 PM

"Otherwise hunt with your crossbow in the rifle season like I do with my bow. The rifle guys just keep the animals out of the fields where I can't get close to them anyway!!"

So Sharpstick, apparently you are not afraid to take advantage of someone elses "season", why do you think that nobody else is allowed in "your" season?

Here's one for everybody, how about archery equipment be excluded from gun season, after all they have their own season already.

If you want to hunt in gun season, pick up a crossbow!

Blakeinator2

01-06-2007, 08:42 PM

"Here's one for everybody, how about archery equipment be excluded from gun season, after all they have their own season already."

Lol, it sure won't affect too many guys...but i like the point!

The majority of hunters will choose the most effective tool possible for the job...regardless if gun or bow seasons...thats human nature. Most guys will shoot a modern centerfire with a scope in the gun seasons. Most bow hunters shoot compounds with peeps and fiber optic sights. Most hunters obviously want to have the highest odds possible when they go afield.....'most hunters'. Then there are the guys who love the challenge...the ones who pick up the traditional bow, the muzzleloader....the whole point is....choices make life great, but certain tools fit together and right now one of the ffffft tools is lumped in with one of the bang seasons:rolleyes . No wonder it doesn't have much of a market place, not that thats important, but what a marvelous tool we have invented...just like the compound bow was. Good things...yet only the most extreme guys will choose it over any of the other gun options for the general season....most guys that extreme would be shooting traditional tackle in the archery season so why bother only letting it in the gun season? Waste of time.

Most game is killed within 200 yrds in the general season...thats within range of todays muzzleloaders. Most game is probably killed inside of 30 yrds with archery tackle. Yes there are plenty of exceptions and its not a rule of thumb but this is generally where it happens.

By the stats afield the crossbow is a bow. I'm not sure exactly what Alberta's numbers are like in terms of overall kill percentages of archery vs gun's is but i remember the numbers from one of the states that allowed the crossbow in. They studied the crossbow and therefore all the harvest numbers etc. and the archery crowd took between 10-14% of all the game harvested. Thats it. So the gun is that much more effective and therefore that many more people choose that tool....its obvious the seasons for the guns must be shorter as there'd be nothing left. For arguments sake i'd love to see what Alberta's stats are but dang....the gun guys get the short season and still kill 86-90% of the game harvested each year...at least in that one particular state it was. Thats huge. If Alberta is even close to those numbers and the archery seasons are twice and 3 times longer than the gun seasons....wow...pretty big difference in the tools between fffft & bang.

Oh, and in that study, they showed the harvest the year before the crossbow at like 11% then they allowed the crossbow and it went to 12% then the second year of the crossbow it went to 10%....something like that...it actually dropped lower one year but then i think harvest rates climbed up to about 14% at the highest year i saw(about the 4th year after crossbow introduction)...but i think was most likely attributed to the gained volume in hunters due to increased popularity of the hunting sports, especially the bowhunting side of things? I'm going off memory here....the data is out there...can't even remember which state it was that these numbers came from?

I'm just more or less trying to big picture it a little bit. If everyone in the general season could only hunt with a muzzleloader then the harvest percentage would still be quintuple plus what the archery guys could ever do (regardless if crossbow allowed or not)...the gun is maximum in efficient. The crossbow absolutely fits in with the compound and makes such a tiny difference in stats that its a no brainer to not make another option/choice available to ourselves.

Put it where it fits, its not the tools fault, there is no reason to hate the tool like people hate snakes....its not evil(neither are snakes)...its actually a pretty smart invension/upgrade to the bow that 'we' created. I find it interesting that people hear the word crossbow and its like hearing the word snake. The stereotypes associated with crossbow and snake are very similar imo......and totally unfounded and unnecessary in todays world. We are better educated to know better now lol.

B:lol

p.s Rackmaster...i think the muzzleloader is super cool, i've always had an iffinity to the simple single shot rifles and i can see myself definitely trying out a muzzleloader one day...they must be a hoot to shoot and play with etc. but i could never classify it anything other than a gun...maybe not all the gun a guy can buy but certainly one choice. Since i'm strictly a bowhunter for my big game i would likely lean to that direction if i switched into the guns...as obviously it would be a massive gain in range as compared to what i'm used to;) but anyhow...i do love firearms and do love predator hunting bigtime but find anytype of single shot pretty frustrating for coyote calling...been there...done that...have had many multiples run in, 5 is the most so far...for big game a single shot would not be an issue for me at all and i can see the huge attraction to the thompson centerfires and muzzleloaders etc. now...but for predator calling...no thanks, might as well have a crossbow lol. All kidding aside, this is a fun debate, i think there are bigger issues we all should be hoping get fixed so we can improve any of our season lenths etc....that would be the metis harvest agreement stuff, the 'sustinence hunting stuff'....combine those abuses with super high predator numbers it won't be long until everything is on draw(at least for us non-native non-metis guys:rolleyes )....our game just can't keep taking it like it is right now. The crossbow argument doesn't necessarily affect anything in terms of increased harvest so might as well allow it where it fits best. Adding another muzzleloader season is a pipe dream imo...in light of the predator/metis/native situations going on....we'll be a long long time before we have enough game that could handle another 50% more gun season (say two weeks for the muzzleloader). Just more of my ramblings.

Thats it for my daily surmon, hope it was all that yall expected it to be.;) :p

Shedcrazy

01-06-2007, 09:11 PM

I voted No....I hunt withh all weapons and think the archery system is fine as is. I don't believe crossbows belong in the same group as compound bows.
I mainly chase elk with the bow and believe that hardest thing in the world to do is draw on a bull you have called in on the ground.
I don't think it would increase the hunters by much or increase the harvest greatly just think the weapons are too different.
I justify it all on the drawing.
I see no reason to change the season due to some people getting old or hurt.

Blakeinator2

01-06-2007, 09:12 PM

Holy....is this ever going in circles. Drawing on anything you've called in is about as hard as it gets. Try a coyote...bet that would be about 10 times harder to pull off than an elk.

Here's the deal...there is a very small percentage of hunters that can even get that kind of opportunity. And you could blow it just about as easy with a crossbow as with a compound...you can argue it all you like but the field data from all the places that have allowed it know this to be true.:rolleyes

The archery system is fine as it is...but it could be better but were just a little too ignorant yet to fix it....so here we are....workin on it. Every year it gets argued and discussed and every year the arguments seem much easier and with much more support for the crossbow. I'm sure it was exactly the same thing for when people fought to have the compound bow included.

Here's a perfectly good tool thats just lumped in the wrong spot which limits all our choices. The overall gain or benefit is so much greater...there really isn't a negative.

Its funny, i'd love to see someone show up at some ABA event with a crossbow...i'd say 'bring friends' as you'd probably find yourself getting an arse whoopin from a bunch of stereotypical 'archers' LOL. There is some sort of stigma against the crossbow...just like i said....like people hate snakes. Its a prejudism of sorts. Yet it aint the tools fault...heck...its only a tool....now lets put it where it fits! Where is the lack of logic in that? If we let the compound in yet fight the crossbow we look stupid....and who likes to look stupid?....not me.

B:lol

prairieboy

01-06-2007, 10:58 PM

I posted this on another thread that was locked,so people did not have the opportunity to reply.As such,I will repost it here.

Crossbows do have one huge advantage over a conventional bow.That advantage is that while it takes a lot of practise to become proficient with a hand held bow,and to remain proficient,almost anyone can pick up a crossbow and be quite accurate with it with very little practise.I found this out first hand when a friend brought his crossbow out to the local archery range,and everyone present was able to shoot it very accuratelywith no previous crossbow experience.This was definitely not the same situation as when most people first started shooting a bow.The result is that someone could buy a crossbow,sight it in,spend very little time practising,yet still have a good chance at taking a game animal.On the other hand,to have a good chance of taking a game animal with a conventional bow,it takes considerable time to develop a consistant anchor point and release,and then one must practise regularly to remain consistant.

sheep hunter

01-06-2007, 11:01 PM

PB...please read my post under bow accuracy!!!

Blakeinator2

01-06-2007, 11:45 PM

"Crossbows do have one huge advantage over a conventional bow.That advantage is that while it takes a lot of practise to become proficient with a hand held bow,and to remain proficient,almost anyone can pick up a crossbow and be quite accurate with it with very little practise."

Not a valid argument with todays compound bow and related equipment. Myself and a few buddies with todays equipment, peeps, fiber optic sights and a few minutes of very basic form instruction and voila...tight enough groups to kill to 30 yrds within minutes. Shooting a compound bow is easy and we all know it....so its not much of an argument. AND.....so what if it shortens the practice time? ISN'T THAT A GOOD THING?????? Less practice to be more proficient? HMMMMMMM I would argue this to be better for the game too no?

Thats an argument FOR the crossbow imo.

B

prairieboy

01-07-2007, 01:04 AM

Myself and a few buddies with todays equipment, peeps, fiber optic sights and a few minutes of very basic form instruction and voila...tight enough groups to kill to 30 yrds within minutes.

I have not seen many people that had no experience at all with bows to be able to shoot broadheads accurately enough to be ready to shoot game at 30 yards in only a few minutes.While field points or target points are more forgiving,broadheads magnify any small mistakes in release and shooting forms that only practise can eliminate.Then add in drawing and shooting a bow in hunting conditions(cold and heavy clothing) and the groups will open up even more.Even drawing a bow can be difficult after sitting in a stand for an hour or so in cold weather.On the other hand it is still relatively easy to pull a trigger under the same conditions.

Shedcrazy

01-07-2007, 11:06 AM

Blake
Holy....is this ever going in circles. Drawing on anything you've called in is about as hard as it gets. Try a coyote...bet that would be about 10 times harder to pull off than an elk.
Not sure how this is going in circles but I just stated how I voted and my opinion. I haver tried on coyotes thank you very much. If you read my post I was discussing what I mainly hunt with the bow.
But thanks for agreeing with me about the drawing being the key. That is the true difference.
Here's the deal...there is a very small percentage of hunters that can even get that kind of opportunity. And you could blow it just about as easy with a crossbow as with a compound...
Many hunters could blow it with a rifle as well...not sure the point of the comment. I do know that I would not blow the shot by drawing back though, raising a rifle or crossbow is quite different than drawing.

Rob

01-07-2007, 01:55 PM

I do know that I would not blow the shot by drawing back though, raising a rifle or crossbow is quite different than drawing.

That all depends Shed.

As I stated earlier, if you are behind a tree, bush etc. with a crossbow you have to move out to get away from the object you are behind before raising the crossbow to your shoulder or you risk a good smack to the jaw, thus creating more movement than simply drawing a bow.

As well, being able to hold a crossbow to your shoulder for long periods of time is simply not true. If you've ever picked up a crossbow: they are very heavy and cumbersome... it doesn't take too long before the shakes settle in, much like holding a bow at full draw.

Shedcrazy

01-07-2007, 02:28 PM

All weapons have some disadvantages...I can't have a tree behind to draw either....that is all in the details when selecting a spot. I don't sit on rose bushes :rollin

I don't think hunters with be all shouldered all day. I guess I keep thinking to how I personnelly hunt and again hunt mostly elk...When the bull is coming in hot, I would shoulder the crossbow...Just like I would do with my rifle.

I have held them (shot them at the range), not hunted with one. Someone take me out and convince me, I have no issues with them.

Blakeinator2

01-07-2007, 06:09 PM

Shed, how many guys you know can go out and bring bull elk into bow range consistantly? I'm gonna guess its not many...the same 'hunter' with the skills to do that is probably quite skilled at closing the deal too...with whatever tool is in his hands. He knows the tools particular limitations, has done the practice etc. The whole point is...at the end of the season...its the harvest ratios that prove what i'm saying....its 99% hunter....1% tool...when it comes to these arrow flingers.

B

I need to add this...called in bull elk, with gun, how easy would that be eh? just front end em and its all good...even with crossbow (which you think is gonna make a huge difference in this situation)...you can't just front end em nice and quick like a gun...your gonna need the exact same shot opportunity to present itself as with a compound....your gonna want that broadside etc. what i'm saying is...regardless of what bow is in your hands on called bull elk the odds are still super stacked against you even getting a shot opportunity that the success rate won't change with either bow....the harvest data confirms this...the better hunter will do about the same with either tool in his hand and the lesser hunter will do the same...99% hunter 1% tool.

sharpstick

01-07-2007, 07:04 PM

So why then blake the big push for xbows if it won't change anything!

Pig- keep archery out of the rifle season?? good one!!

Just some info, the general rifle season is
two months longer than the archery season up north. not the other way around!

sheep hunter

01-07-2007, 07:05 PM

So why then blake the big push for xbows if it won't change anything!

Because it will get some new hunters in the field, allow some hunters that are currently unable to participate in archery seasons to participate, get existing hunters spending more time in the field and it will help game managers meet harvest quotas in areas where archers can't accomplish that. All good things in my opinion!!!!!!!!

sharpstick

01-07-2007, 07:40 PM

Sheep just checked your website......(outdoor quest with rich and TJ).........sponsored by xcaliber crossbows hey!!

sheep hunter

01-07-2007, 07:41 PM

It's actually Excalibur but yup, they are an advertiser on our series in the U.S.A. Bill and Kathy are two of the finest people you'll ever meet and great hunters to boot. You should check out Bill's footage of taking an elephant with the crossbow last year...it's phenominal. They do make an awesome bow too!!!!!!!

sheep hunter

01-07-2007, 08:02 PM

No interest at all sharpstick but thanks for the vote of confidence!

Blakeinator2

01-07-2007, 08:03 PM

"So why then blake the big push for xbows if it won't change anything!"

Commonsense.

Thats it, put the tools where they fit. The more options that make sense...the better life is. Thats it man, plain ole commonsense. P.s. the question should be 'why not?' but you know....factor in some stereotypes, some kneejerk selfish reactions and voila....the question is 'why?' instead. Human nature man...we don't just see things that make sense, have the data to confirm our suspicions....and then just make it happen nice and easy do we? Nope, gotta do it this way, a few years of argueing/discussing etc. etc. until it sinks in to enough of us that it gets changed. Thats life.

Oh, and i aint pushin it, i'm just argueing it here on this one particular forum...for a couple reasons...1. to help get it educated properly and 2. for entertainment.:b

"Just some info, the general rifle season is
two months longer than the archery season up north. not the other way around!"

Because there is half as many people up there lol...stands to reason.;) :lol

B

sharpstick

01-07-2007, 08:43 PM

sheep you should get into politics!!

jrs

01-07-2007, 09:04 PM

"I tend to disagree with the increase harvest point."

Down south where you can buy a general mule tag for archery every year as opposed to a 5 year wait, i do think buck harvest would increase. I'm on the fence with this issue mostly due to a variety of comments put forth on this thread. I don't think they'll ever be classed together anyway so until then i think i'll worry about other stuff. The south thing may just be an alternative thought however.

sheep hunter

01-07-2007, 09:05 PM

Actually shed, the management problems exist in the archery-only areas, especially the one around Edmonton and I disagree with you. I think a some hunters would definitely take advantage of this opportunity to put some extra meat in the freezer. What everyone keeps forgetting is that there are a lot of people out there that are physically unable to shoot a vertical bow but don't qualify for a crossbow permit. Many are ex vertical bow hunters. I think they would be thrilled to be able to get out and bow hunt again, even if just for antlerless deer and moose.

I think another thing to remember is that many of the pro crossbow hunters on here are already vertical bow hunters as well. They two are not mutally exclusive.

Shedcrazy

01-07-2007, 09:58 PM

I find this actually a very entertaining way to spend the off season!

I tend to disagree with the increase harvest point. Most people that would take up the x-bow to hunt would do what most bow hunters do already...look for Mr. Big earlier and to be honest I assume most of you pro X-bow hunters on this forum would be doing just that or filling anterless tags that would be filled in rifle anyways. Starting the season early is all. Maybe for a few species where the wait is longer for a draw (elk, anterled mule deer) more harvest might happen. Again most would be bulls/bucks and that is not an effective managment point and if they are on a strict draw then managers are not worried they are not meeting their objectives.

Shedcrazy

01-07-2007, 10:56 PM

Still not buying it if you are using game management for the pro x-bow side.
From my Edmonton days it was permission being the number one problem to low hunting harvest. Wasn't it the strathcona hunt that had to change the tags to only one buck tag due to guys not shooting does?
I am sure some hunters will fill tags but nothing is stoping the same hunter from using the xbow in the general season.
I understand that some people can not use a vertical bow but nothing is stopping them from going west or north.
Also not buying the fact about bringing in new hunters. How many people are sitting at home going only if i was allowed to use a xbow would I start hunting!

sheep hunter

01-07-2007, 11:02 PM

I guess it is all speculation as to whether antlerless harvest would increase and how many new hunters it would bring in but I speculate that many would kill does especially if the government offered some incentives like they did with the CWD tags and I think it's reasonable to believe that if their is a small group of people that only hunt with vertical bows that their would be a new small group that only hunted with crossbows. That's what I speculate but regardless, it would get hunters spending more days in the field and that is good for hunting.

prairieboy

01-08-2007, 08:16 AM

I would have to agree with allowing the use of crossbows in the bow only zones since the only reason for not allowing firearms is safety related,and not management related.However after seeing that Sheephunter is sponsored by a company whose main product is crossbows,I do have to view his objectivity.His opinion may in fact be unbiased,but then again,a good business person will take every opportunity to promote their sponsors or their sponsors market.

Shedcrazy

01-08-2007, 09:27 AM

I agree with Sheep and Prairie about the bow zone but would need to talk to a game manager to make sure.

I would have to agree with allowing the use of crossbows in the bow only zones since the only reason for not allowing firearms is safety related,and not management related

I believe this to be true and could support it. It might lead the door open to spread but I doubt it.

I don't agree with the rest of the comments Prairie has, even though I disagree with Sheep over the both types of bows being the same equipment I think he is just wants more choices and not about his sponsores. This is just friendly conversation and no need to make it personnel.

grandzillaa

01-08-2007, 11:20 AM

I have a friend who can't use a vertical bow because he has a bummer of an arm, he can't draw the string back. He can use a rifle and maybe a crossbow as well. So this would give him a chance during archery if he could use a crossbow.

sheep hunter

01-08-2007, 11:21 AM

Like I indicated before PB, I am not personally sponsored by a crossbow company so I have absolutely nothing to gain if crossbows become legal in archery season in Alberta. My motives for engaging in this debate are nothing more than the reasons I've stated a hundred times before. I've stuck to the facts and the facts bear out what I've been saying.

If you want to question my objectivity, question it on the fact that I am very dedicated to enhancing and promoting hunting in this province. Now that's something I readily admit being biased about.

grandzillaa

01-08-2007, 12:41 PM

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If you want to question my objectivity, question it on the fact that I am very dedicated to enhaning and promoting hunting in this province.<hr></blockquote> Actually sheep hunter is dedicated to enhancing and promoting hunting period, whether in or out of the province. He has a hugh heart for hunting in Alberta there is no doubt about that.<img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" />

sheep hunter

01-08-2007, 12:45 PM

Thanks grand!

prairieboy

01-09-2007, 12:05 AM

I am well aware that SH does promote hunting and the outdoors in many ways.However as long as the program that he is featured on is sponsored by a company that markets crossbows,there will always be some question as to whether this fact has an influence on his promoting crossbows.

sheep hunter

01-09-2007, 12:32 AM

However as long as the program that he is featured on is sponsored by a company that markets crossbows,there will always be some question as to whether this fact has an influence on his promoting crossbows.

Actually they manufacture crossbows PB! And just for the record, I've never promoted crossbows on this site....just engaged in a coversation about them and stated some facts about them.

Damn, now I'll never sleep tonight knowing that you question my integrity. :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin

prairieboy

01-09-2007, 12:36 AM

I never thouight that the crossbow sponsor was the sole reason for your interest in crossbows.However one does have to wonder if it may be a little added incentive.:lol

sharpstick

01-09-2007, 12:40 AM

its simple sheep, they pay you to put their ad in your programs and on your website!!
Its called taking an interest in the people that feed you!!

we are not all born yesterday!

I also agree, you are passionate and care about the outdoors in alberta!

sheep hunter

01-09-2007, 12:41 AM

So because the TV show has a firearms sponsor and an optics sponsor and a camo sponsor, I guess that means everything I do to promote hunting is tainted....Man I'm so self serving.

I guess Rob's in the same boat too because he has ads in his magazine. Geeze, this industry is full of us.

Once again, some people on this board never cease to amaze me with their narrow view of the world.

Look back sharpstick, I never once promoted the show sponsor. There are dozens of crossbow manufacturers out there, just as there are dozens of firearms, optics and camo manufacturers out there. Yes, all benefit from hunters spending more days in the field but I feel that hunters do as well. Just my narrow view of things.

Well, I'm off to the SHOT Show to round up some more sponsors. Maybe I'll find a vertical bow sponsor and can change sides on this and start promoting vertical bows only!!! Get a grip......if it's good for hunting I'll be talking about it and if it's not good for hunting, you can bet I'll be talking even louder.

sheep hunter

01-09-2007, 12:47 AM

Not sure what the incentive would be PB...please enlighten us all. I guess you know more about my relationship with Excalibur than I do.

So if Rob posts something on here I guess his opinion is tainted too if it involves an advertiser?

209x50cal

01-09-2007, 09:30 AM

209 I do not know what your injury is but there are things you can do, bows of your day were 80 and 90 pounds 50% letoff at best, nowadays you can get away with 50 to 55 pound bows 80% letoff performing the same as the old bows!
Changing practice habits like 5 arrows in the AM and 5 arrows in the pm everyday instead of 100 on saturday!!
Physio to increase the muscles of archery and your core muscles!!
I am not intending to offend you or make light of your injury just putting out options so you can take part in the archery season that alberta is lucky to have!
Otherwise hunt with your crossbow in the rifle season like I do with my bow. The rifle guys just keep the animals out of the fields where I can't get close to them anyway!!

No offence but how old are you? I ask because only someone very young or blissfully unaware of life would make such a statement. I did 3 years of the physio after the surgery and before the permanent disability was decided. Any one who has dealt with WCB can tell you how hard those settlements are fought.
"5 arrows in the AM!"
HA! It is not the 5th or 50th arrow I can't do, it is the first. You don't think I haven't tried my options? You assume I sit and whine without having tried to resurrect some of my old pastimes but the truth is when a life altering situation occurs you have to make the best of it. Pick yourself up and dust yourself off and go forward.
Archery is easily the most insignificant change this injury made to my life.
You may not be trying to be arrogant but you sure as hell come across that way.

sheep hunter

01-09-2007, 09:42 AM

PB/sharpstick.......My Grandpa always used to say that when the name calling started that you were out of ammo. I've done nothing in this debate but stick to facts and quote statistics....I guess my ammo reserve was a little bigger. It's unfortunate that a few on this site must always bring the level down a few notchs once they run out of useful information to contribute to a topic but I expected no less.

I'd tell you the long story of how my relationship began with Bill and Kathy Troubridge of Excalibur crossbows and how they took the time to explain crossbows...both their strengths and weaknesses and how they encouraged me to shoot one and to see what I thought for myself long before they ever became involved with our television series. I'd tell you what fine folks they are and how much they contribute to hunting here in Canada. I'd tell you that I have nothing to gain financially from promoting crossbows in Alberta. I'd tell you how I perceived the ABA's stance on crossbows and how I felt it portayed hunters in a bad light. I'd tell you how denegrating any group of hunters is bad for the sport. I'd tell you how I've done nothing but present some facts and statistics and have never promoted crossbows in archery season but sadly I know it would fall upon deaf ears and end up with mud being slung.

So with that, I think I've presented all that is useful to this debate and will leave the mud slinging to those that love to wallow in it.

Blakeinator2

01-09-2007, 10:04 AM

Its like watching some sort of court drama on TV....any little thing that people can focus on to try and discredit someone in hopes of it also discrediting their arguments....what a bunch of bull.

Folks, if your reading through the lines, listening with open minds....you'll be just fine in understanding whats worth absorbing and whats not.

These discussions always seem to degenerate this direction at one point or another.

I can't say that i don't get sucked into the name calling from time to time but sometimes its just fun to call names...its not that i personally don't have an arguement at the time...its just sometimes it feels better to call someone a name(generally ribbing....like most guys do with their buddies fyi).

Like right now for example....Hey dullstick(please grab a sense of humor btw)...you listening? Are you a member of the ABA? Don't lie...we all need to know that...to see if your arguement is tainted ya know.

B:b

prairieboy

01-09-2007, 08:57 PM

PB/sharpstick.......My Grandpa always used to say that when the name calling started that you were out of ammo

Kindly point out where I did any name calling on this thread.Name calling between you and I has only occured on one occaision,and on that occaision you did intitiate it.I merely pointed out that although I certainly recognize that you do promote hunting in general,having your show sponsored by a crossbow manufacturer could possibly provide you with more of an incentive to support any change in the regulations that could lead to the increased sale of crossbows.

Piglet

01-09-2007, 09:53 PM

Moderators......

I believe Sheep Hunter is right, I started this particular thread is it reasonable that I ask that it be locked?

I think we have beaten this to death now and the poll is being skewed anyway.

Thanks.

Rob

01-09-2007, 11:41 PM

Skewed which way Piglet?

I think this thread will remain open as it provides a ton of information. Or maybe I should stickie it to the top and close it?

Piglet

01-10-2007, 12:23 AM

Sorry Rob maybe "skewed" was a bad choice of description. I have been watching the poll results and the Nos always seem to be just ahead of the Yeses, I would not expected them to be just that close everytime.

So I think the poll has run its value out because I believe someone is just voting to keep one side ahead. I personally voted Yes, but really was interested in a fair poll which I don't think has happened.

I also think there are a ton of valid points here and locking and making it a stickie would be a solution.

Thanks for the input.

grandzillaa

01-10-2007, 01:34 AM

Why close it, for someone else will start another one on crossbows anyway. There was a thread on the 308 not to long ago and now we have another. So leave it for a few more days and then if there is no more respone then stickie it.

bobcatguy1

01-10-2007, 01:54 AM

I've been following this thread with some interest as I have been having this discussion for almot a year now with a couple of buds. My opinion is bows are bows. It don't matter if you pull the strig with your fingers ,a release or shoot it with a trigger you still have to get up close & personal with whatever you want to harvest.

Shedcrazy

01-10-2007, 06:49 PM

Is it the result you don't like? Seems kind of weird to lock a poll just because you might not like the answer. Really don't see any side proving their point with a poll. Just shows we seem to be split is all.

Anyways I have enjoyed reading the comments except the ones that got personnel.

I believe most people learnt someting...Both sides have some good points and some weak ones.....I haven't been convinced to change my mind but might try one in a hunting situation.

prairieboy

01-10-2007, 07:50 PM

I don't know how you can assume that the poll is skewed by someone voting more than once,and even if this is the case,how can you be sure whether these double votes were for or against crossbows being allowed in the regular archery season?

Piglet

01-10-2007, 08:12 PM

Ok, here is how I think the poll has been tampered with by someone voting to keep their point of view ahead, in this case the No side.

Everytime I checked the poll (several times a day) regardless of what the Yes side had, the No side was alway just one/two votes ahead. Not once since I started this poll 11 days ago was the Yes side ahead. I would expect the vote to be split and honestly had no expectations as to who would come out on top, but for the No side to be consistently in the lead by only the narrowest of margins leads me to beleive someone is doctoring the result by voting multiple times, either as a register or unregistered user.

Of course I could be way off base and it could be an entire coincidence that I checked the poll only when the No side was ahead, but then I don't believe I have been that wide eyed gullible since I was 5 years old and still believed in Santa!

Therefore I think the poll has run it usefulness, the other thread is still there for continuing the discussion, and pretty much the same comments have been repeated here for the most part anyway.

That's my reason, and of course it is up to the mods to make the final call. If they want to leave it open, good enough, I will continue to read both threads, just to see if something new pops over the horizon.

But it has been fun watching the interchange, although I personally think the logical and unemotional comments from the support crossbow side has carried the day. Of course I would say that because I voted Yes in the first place.

Have fun everyone.

Rackmastr

01-10-2007, 09:59 PM

Piglet....its a poll......what did you expect?

Piglet

01-11-2007, 09:44 AM

Sigh.......

Ok, Rackmaster your right.....

I guess my comment above about being gullible is incorrect.......I guess I was expecting a mature and honest response on an open forum.

Excuse me while I put out some cookies and milk and go find a carrot for the reindeer.

Poll

01-11-2007, 10:10 AM

"Excuse me while I put out some cookies and milk and go find a carrot for the reindeer." :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin I still want to see the Easter Bunny .:D

Blakeinator2

01-11-2007, 01:13 PM

I actually think the poll aint that bad...wonder what it would be like 2 years ago. Try again next year too...

People don't like change...its human nature. Thats why it takes so long to get changes, it has to be educated and educated and educated and....you get the point....before it starts to become 'common knowledge'. Then the adminstrative hassles afterwords must be just as painful.

B

sportsman

01-11-2007, 06:41 PM

This debate was done last year in the same fashion. The pro crosbow guys focus on 2 things (accuracy and maximum range) and deem the 2 weapons equal or claim the crossbow to be actually more difficult to use because it is heavier or something along those lines. That isnt a fair comparision, thats just pushing an agenda. Do we need so many more people in archery season that we need to allow a weapon that is stealthier to use and easier to master? I dont know, but the fact we have draws in archery seasons presently would make me say no. I agree with promoting hunting. If we need more archers why not promote bowhunting? Since those darn crossbows are so hard to use we should stay away from them as newcomers would just get frustrated and leave the sport.

If someone who used to bowhunt is injured they should take advantage of the permit to use a crossbow in the archery season.

As for recurve vs. compound yes it takes more commitment to learn to instictively shoot the recurve and max range will be less but the tough part is still the same. You gotta pull it back while in range without getting busted, then hold it till you have the right shot.

If your auntie was born with a pecker she would still be your auntie, she would be a hermaphrodite though. Only if her boobs fell off would she become your uncle.

Rackmastr

01-11-2007, 08:57 PM

I guess my comment above about being gullible is incorrect.......I guess I was expecting a mature and honest response on an open forum.

So the yes's were ahead at the beginning, and then throughout the event, the no's lead the rest of the way? Hmm.....that seems like it has to be tampered with. Would you say the same thing if the yes's lead the whole time, but had a slow start? C'mon...give me a break.

Beleive in Santa all you want....or just stick your head in a chimney and see what happens....it sounds childish to think that because a poll didnt end the way you want that you think it should be removed or that it was tainted....

Rob

01-11-2007, 11:10 PM

Since those darn crossbows are so hard to use we should stay away from them as newcomers would just get frustrated and leave the sport.

Have you been reading the same thread as the rest of us?

If someone who used to bowhunt is injured they should take advantage of the permit to use a crossbow in the archery season.

I guess not!

Jamie Hunt

01-12-2007, 03:33 AM

Rob, can you tell us if this poll is being played with? (And by what side)
I know when I came on once without logging in, it allowed me to vote once again.

Jamie

Voteing

01-12-2007, 08:38 AM

(Rob, can you tell us if this poll is being played with? (And by what side)
I know when I came on once without logging in, it allowed me to vote once again.) It isnt hard to see that any poll on this fourm would be double dipped you just said it your self jamie .
JAMIE WROTE{I know when I came on once without logging in, it allowed me to vote once again.:o }You kind of answered that question yourself DIDN'T you so can you tell everyone Whitch way you voted.

Blakeinator2

01-12-2007, 10:31 AM

Sportsman,

What difference does it make if the game in a draw zone is taken with a traditional bow, compound bow or crossbow?

cdnr

01-12-2007, 11:04 AM

Bow hunting for me is very difficult,
only because last march I broke my ellbow, and it's still not very strong,
my dad uses this message board,
I don't know his username though,
but I do no, is my mom and dad are really into bow shooting, and my dad
bought me a bow and I haven't used it very much,
but I have tryed to shoot gophers with it,
I think I got one,
I'm more of a gun kindof girl,
But i'd like to get into more bow hunting,
so does anyone have any suggestions, to get my ellbow back it's strength?
;)

Rob

01-12-2007, 11:32 AM

Hey Jamie,

I have no way of knowing but I just logged out and then checked the poll and I wasn't allowed to vote again. But then again my IP would be the same as I did it from the same computer.

I would have to guess that if the poll was being toyed with it would be from both sides, thus making it a fairly accurate poll... wouldn't you just think?

Jamie Hunt

01-12-2007, 12:23 PM

Rob. Perhaps it's becouse I have a router that I can log on with a diferent Ip addy.. Not sure..
I also think the Poll is being played with to a large extent. (On the NO side) and perhaps a bit in retaliation on the Yes side.

Nationwide.. YOU LIVE.. And here I thought you had just gone away. I voted for X-Bows. (2 Times:D ) But thanks for asking

Jamie

Duffy4

01-12-2007, 02:14 PM

In 2006 there were ~ 94310 wildlife certificates sold in Alberta (residents ) And there were 11748 bow licences sold.

so ~12.5 % of the wildlife certificate holders by a bow licence and I assume take advantage of the additional "Archey" seasons and areas.

According to this poll (never mind who is voting how many times) a heck of a lot more than 12.5% of the voters would like to see cross bows allowed during the early season.

I'll use this poll when I prepare a resolution for the AF&GA to request F&W to make the simple change, to allow crossbows in the realy season.

Robin in Rocky

Cross bow

01-12-2007, 02:32 PM

(Nationwide.. YOU LIVE..) Yes ;)

(And here I thought you had just gone away)Just for a little while Holidays and all.

(I also think the Poll is being played with to a large extent.)Geee you think so :rolleyes when you get a comment like your's "I voted for X-Bows. (2 Times ) But thanks for asking.) Times that by so many reg user's logging out and voteing again .

Blakeinator2

01-12-2007, 02:33 PM

No doubt, take this poll for what it is... I did the log off and voted, told my buddy to get on here and vote for the crossbow and he got on and voted twice against.:lol :lol

You 'CAN' choose your friends right?;) :lol Too funny.

I'm surprised its as close to 50/50 anyhow, i figure the bitter selfish ones would represent a higher vote as they have more motivation to keep the crossbow out. Anyhow, without being registered only...the poll is useless for anything serious....but for fun however....its great.:D

B

209x50cal

01-12-2007, 02:40 PM

Hi Duffy,
That resolution passed last year and is already on the books for this years conference.
But by all means the support is appreciated.
12.5%.... that is a very small minority in the scheme of things isn't it?

Chevy 454

01-12-2007, 06:50 PM

209, is there someplace a individual can write to add support to adding crossbows to the archery season. I am in favor of it.

Thanks,Al.

sharpstick

01-13-2007, 03:50 PM

Blake I guess the lazy, take the easy way out, ones have just as much motivation!!
Really, why put people down because they have taken the initiative to use archery equipement, establish archery seasons, and educate people along the way. If you want to know more about the ABA, visit their website!!

Jamie Hunt

01-13-2007, 04:36 PM

Blake I guess the lazy, take the easy way out

Is that what the trad/long bows/bare bows guys said when Compounds came out? Or how about when 80% let offs came into effect?
Or how about when the jump was made from Cedar arrows to Aluminum to Carbon?

I have seen the ABA's response and what Blake said is exactly what I was thinking when I read it. I also remember reading on a Bow board threads about a discusion that was going on here. Once again what Blake has said rings true.

Jamie

Blakeinator2

01-13-2007, 05:21 PM

"why put people down because they have taken the initiative to use archery equipement, establish archery seasons, and educate people along the way"

putting people down?, if thats how you feel then sorry but here's my take, just havin a little fun on an internet forum....the rest of your statement????? dude, i have taken the initiative! I AM A BOWHUNTER FOR BIG GAME EXCLUSIVELY!!! (maybe you skipped through some of my gibberish where i explained what i hunt with etc.....i don't blame ya;) )

Oh, are you saying i'm putting the ABA down? I'm being critical of the ABA on this subject. I can have an opinion here can't i? I already said they do good things and they ARE a good organization. Just because i think they sh_t the bed on this particular subject is not putting people down. Its just an opinion...and my opinion is they should have looked at the tool with open mind first....instead i think they just did the knee jerk and closed the case on the subject immediately...not even sure if they even tried to explore the subject. Its an instant hate of the tool itself.

This is a pretty big deal apparently and so maybe they should have put a little more time into exploring the subject??? Again...just my opinion, it matters not to me, i do just fine with my compound bow. I think the crossbow fits in with the other bows...how do you argue it when the stats from everywhere else thats tried it say the same thing??????????

Oh, and i've been to the ABA, i argued the thing to death overthere last year...or maybe the year before? Anyhow, there were a bunch of guys that came into the discussion that were much more involved people with much more data and much less antagonizing ways of argueing etc.;) and in my opinion there was nothing that the ABA could throw at them, if you read the thread and still said no to the crossbow then you either a) hate crossbows for some reason, or b) didn't want anyone else joining the game, or c) both. I don't think i'm welcome at the ABA and i raised some hackles forsure, i think i was even invited to show up at a 3d shoot with a crossbow....you can probably guess it was so someone could thump me one...or two....or three. I made a few fellows fairly angry overthere i'm sure.:o :lol I have an offensive style i guess.;)

B

p.s. thanks Jamie, did you see the big ABA blowout on this last year? man that one was a doozie...there were guys on it that could make my attempts to educate it look pretty weak

p.s.s. sportsman, where are ya?

sharpstick

01-14-2007, 12:17 PM

blake you are the one calling archers bitter and selfish etc......and I to have an opinion and you keep jumping on it...you are way too easy to fire up!! almost not fun anymore!

About the aba, the crossbow is not a bow, not classed as a bow, not recognized anywhere mags, TV, P&Y or anything archery as a bow, so why should the aba treat it as a bow!

I did not mean the ABA forum, go to the home page and see what the club is about, then maybe it will make sense!!

Rob

01-14-2007, 01:02 PM

About the aba, the crossbow is not a bow, not classed as a bow, not recognized anywhere mags, TV, P&Y or anything archery as a bow, so why should the aba treat it as a bow!

How about because since 341 BC it has been called a "bow" and in fact at one time was called the "Western Bow." And, it doesn't go "bang."

And it is also recognized as a bow in several states and in some provinces.

Let's see...

Compound "Bow"
Cross "Bow"

Hmmm... something similar there, wouldn't ya' say?

sharpstick

01-14-2007, 07:19 PM

Rob that is why it should be called a cross"gun" as it has a gun stock, a gun trigger, a scope, it is "loaded" before you "fire" it...................

Shortmag7

01-14-2007, 08:32 PM

Guns use gunpowder to shoot bullets. Bows use a transfer of energy to shoot wooden, carbon, fiberglass, etc., sticks with sharp points and blades on the end of them. If there was a way to make them sharp sticks go 300 yards with some killing power I would be a bowhunter, too. Until then it will take a lot more than a crossbow to get me into an archery zone I left behind twenty years ago. Although there are a few areas around Edmonton's bow zone that could use an additional shotgun slug season to thin out the herd.

Rob

01-14-2007, 09:00 PM

Rob that is why it should be called a cross"gun

But it isn't called a crossgun because it isn't a gun... there is no "bang" so it can't be "fired" as you suggest.

It is a bow, always has been, always will be.

Blakeinator2

01-15-2007, 11:49 AM

"blake you are the one calling archers bitter and selfish"

Not all of them....just the ones who don't see it the way i see it.;) And if any non-archers don't see it the way i see it then same thing for them too.:lol

The way i see it is....somebody must be right....so i figure it might as well be me okay?. Okay.:b

"and I to have an opinion and you keep jumping on it...you are way too easy to fire up!! almost not fun anymore!"

Okay, joking aside then...

Not really here to hurt anyones feelings so hope i haven't but dude....you still think the crossbow is a gun. Is this your first time argueing this? If so then i'll take it a little easier on you but if you've educated yourself on the tool and still call it a gun (especially in regards to hunting) then people are going to jump on your opinion...including me.:rolleyes

Since it sounds like you do alot of target stuff with your archery tackle(or at least support 3d's)....do you see the traditional guys in the same classes as the compound guys? Do the traditional guys even shoot 3d's?(thats an honest question by the way, as i honestly don't know...i suspect they would but i really don't know). Wouldn't the crossbow potentially have enough differences to get its own class too?

You probably can't even imagine that can you. Go to a 3d shoot and see a crossbow class also:eek . Well in the world of the ABA you sure wouldn't imagine that going over very well. Yet what in the world would be wrong with that? What is so evil about the crossbow? (i hear opportunity knocking at the ABA's door....is anyone listening?)

Just because you don't hold it at draw? You don't think the tool itself has its own challenges and interesting features/ways to use it etc.??? Well, in the world of target stuff it likely has enough differences to have its own class which i'm sure the traditional guys have vs the compound guys? But in the world of hunting its no different from the compound...and thats what we're argueing ultimately. I could care less if it makes it to a 3d or not...but i do care about hunting enough to speak my mind about it for its inclusion to the rest of the archery seasons.

In my eyes these tools are all in the same camp, they are all brothers and there is no reason they shouldn't get along as such. The crossbow however is definitely treated like the red-headed stepchild of the group.

I can't see the argument from your side, i did initially then took open mind approach and learned about the tool. Hopefully everyone else does the same?....just trying to help educate a little here is all....as i think its a fantastic tool, a great invention of ours, and i think its completely misunderstood (exactly the same kind of prejudices and ignorance most of us have towards reptiles/snakes etc.). Just sticken up for the little guy here.

Have a good one.

B

Okotokian

01-15-2007, 01:55 PM

Who cares if the ABA doesn't recognize a crossbow as a bow? If they want to exclude them from their association, I see no problem with that... but that doesn't mean the governement has to.

Cut all the ruccus... abandon "Bow season" and implement "String and muscle powered projectile season" or "Effective killing range under 100 yards season" or such. Then we can all stop arguing and insulting each other and just get out there and hunt. :D

Blakeinator2

01-15-2007, 02:51 PM

Sharpstick, man made a bow, then he put some wheels on it and made it better, then he figured all sorts of ways of making it better and better. Fiber optic sights, peeps (rear sights), way WAY better 'rest' systems, high let offs, increased efficiency etc etc.

Oh, and don't forget the trigger we made for them...or as they are called in archery world 'release aids'.

But man didn't quit there (we never do;) ). They took it one step further. They figured out how to take the last 20% of the hold weight at draw and put it fully on a trigger. Its called the crossbow...and how smart of man to figure that out too....does that really transform it into something other than a bow?:rolleyes

Or is it just another great option from which we should be able to choose to use for whatever reason we want to use it? Thats how i see it. It is lumped in with the guns and just doesn't fit there.

It is a bow.

B

p.s. i know thats not really the timeline/history of bows but was just trying to use another way to point out how it is a bow....not a gun

A guy could really say that all the advancements we've made to the compound just about make it into a crossbow....i'd say its 99% there at this point.:lol :lol That compound...what a little over achiever it is eh?;) :lol

Blakeinator2

01-15-2007, 06:06 PM

"Who cares if the ABA doesn't recognize a crossbow as a bow? If they want to exclude them from their association, I see no problem with that... but that doesn't mean the governement has to."

I'm with that! Can't wait to see it in the regs someday.

B

sharpstick

01-15-2007, 11:08 PM

blake by the length of your posts you are drinking rum again !! lol!!

Blake...yes trad guys do shoot 3ds with their own class..some also choose to shoot from the compound stakes as well!!

crossbow

01-16-2007, 03:27 AM

After all these years Still goes ffffttt. youve got to get within 40yds. 60for the guys that practice enough at that distance It's close up & personal with any bow. Unlike a rifle which shoot a small lead projectile ouy to 100 to 600 yds accurattly .

Blakeinator2

01-16-2007, 10:12 AM

Sharpstick, lol, no wasn't into the rum but i was in a good mood;) . Doesn't help that i took typing all through high school so my fingers can get a little ahead of my brain at times....sure was nice being the only guy in class though, lol.

So would you be doing a double take if you show'd up at a 3d and there was a crossbow class?

Are you with me that its a bow yet?

Doesn't hurt to ask right.:lol

B

It won't be all roses....

01-16-2007, 10:13 AM

So assuming crossbows were allowed during the archery season next year. There is likely more than enough deer to go around. Actually, it would probably be a good thing to get more people out and increase the harvest on deer. However, do you think the few remaining general moose and early elk hunts could continue unrestricted? I suggest not. They will have to go on the draw. Crossbows, IMHO are a little more efficient weapon for these hunting situations/species than a compound bow. Even if you considered them equal, you will have more hunters afield and harvest will increase. Good for deer management, bad for moose and antlered elk. I guess if everything winds up on the draw it pretty much doesn't matter what you hunt with.

Blakeinator2

01-16-2007, 10:14 AM

I don't think hunter numbers is necessarily the main problem. We have a predator high cycle going on right now. That discussion can easily take up another thread but long story short is the grizz numbers are way up, the wolf numbers are through the roof and the cougars will be there too....factor in all the predators and its a losing battle....then, as bad as it sounds, factor in the 'sustinence hunting':rolleyes with the high predator cycle and its ole whitey that takes it in the behind....the crossbow shouldn't really make a lick of difference there imo.

I was all over the predator stuff a couple years back but here's the short story of what i learned. Grizzly's, people were moaning there are only 500...turned out to be animal rights groups pulling numbers out of their bum and that the last official count was done in 1988 of 588 bears and much more official estimates as of 2002 had them almost 1000 bears and what was Alberta's goal for the numbers?......1000 bears...so we are 5 yrs later and probably still climbing in bear numbers like mad. Then onto the wolves....we are supposed to be running about 3500 wolves in Alberta...however even the wolf lovers at the world wolf congress just held in banff a couple years ago admitted almost 5000 in Alberta and said we could kill 1200 right away without doing any damage. Apparently we are only killing about 200 a year....and i don't know much about the cats but as far as i understand its same dang thing. The world just loves predators right now, wildlife management isn't as important...plus its way harder/more expensive to manage predators than it is ungulates.

Don't worry, between the sustinence hunting and the predators....it won't be long before everything but whitetails is on draw...just my opinion. If anyone wants to know more or discuss it then start a new thread on the predators etc. but the crossbow introduction is the least of our worries when it comes to critters on draw imo.

B

p.s. i should add with my 'sustinence hunting'...that means they don't generally seem to find whitetail deer a sustinence type of critter...can't blame them...if i had it that good it would be only moose/elk and trophy sheep for me too...everybody wants to eat the same thing...including the predators...and it generally aint deer

Anglinfool

01-16-2007, 12:52 PM

Wow! I can't believe this thread is still going!

About the aba, the crossbow is not a bow, not classed as a bow, not recognized anywhere mags, TV, P&Y or anything archery as a bow, so why should the aba treat it as a bow!

You are wrong. Thats a fact.

The ABA is wrong. Thats my opinion.

Either way, I'm selling my crossBOW. I bought it because there was serious discussion a few years ago about letting crossBOWs into archery season. This won't happen because the ABA lobbys better then I do.

Oh well. Anyone want to buy a slightly used Excalibur Phoenix with all the goddies? :D

Blakeinator2

01-16-2007, 02:05 PM

Yeah, can't do stuff like that...one rumor and you think its safe to buy something etc. but then wait for years and years or maybe never.

Its still a great tool, and you already have it, right now all i would use one for is predator calling as i think it would be a hoot for that...but would be nicer to justify its cost if i knew i could use it to take people out for their first deer in the bowzone and shoot some does....i'd most certainly buy one then.

B

sharpstick

01-16-2007, 11:12 PM

Blake I would do a double take, it just isn't seen in these parts.

Can someone tell me why you see next to nothing about crossbow hunting in any mags, vids, etc.

Blake, a question, is a crossbow even the new ones, a less effective weapon than a compound, just easier to use without practice? you also can't shoot them as far, max 40 yards?? to me people believing they are much more effective could be a huge problem, maybe not for most but it is the old 10% rule that could be detrimental.

Blake no reason a first timer would not be able to shoot a deer with a few months practice before the season with a vertical bow. i feel it would be more rewarding than just picking up someone elses crossbow and shooting it the day before!!

Starting to find winter kills, could solve the management problems in areas this year.

sharpstick

01-16-2007, 11:14 PM

forgot to answer the bow question!

NOPE!!

LOL!

Blakeinator2

01-17-2007, 09:39 AM

Okay Sharpstick...i'll do my best and i'm gonna be a nice boy:D ...

"Blake I would do a double take, it just isn't seen in these parts."

Good to know, i'm sure everyone would and i wouldn't be surprised if some disgusted people even walked away from the event too(probably ABA members....sorry couldn't resist:lol ).

Its funny the perceptions of the tool itself...people think its a poachers tool or that it has magical 100 yrd capabilities....they really think its like a gun....it's not thought of in a good light....more evil really...when thats not the case at all.

Its simply a tool we could utilize more if we didn't hate it so much....and a great invention too, very smart invention, and it certainly has its limitations and advantages just like the compound does or traditional equipment....they are all unique and different in certain ways but they all do the same thing in the field essentially. Well the compound & crossbow would be in a league above the traditional gear imo but so close to each other in performance that too hard to measure the difference.

"Can someone tell me why you see next to nothing about crossbow hunting in any mags, vids, etc."

This is not so anymore...its becoming more mainstream all the time. I see a couple adds in the regular bowhunting magazines for crossbows regularly, and i even got one that had a whole crossbow special in it, with reviews etc. and some educational editorials. Don't worry, its becoming more main stream....i personally can't wait to see if Mathews/Bowtech/Hoyt jump in the game and what they might do for the technologies etc. in crossbows. Once again you'd probably have a double take if any of them started to build crossbows(so would just about anyone else) but i think it would awesome. I hope Mathews is the first to take a stab at it...i'm a Mathews guy, what can i say?:b Kinda like i'm Chev guy too.:lol

One show i can think of off the bat is called Archers Choice, i see crossbows on their show all the time, they aren't super fussy on the tools themselves. I get bell expressview and i record a bunch of stuff but thats one i can think of that has them pretty regular. Two shows i saw them on recently were hogs and alligators....the hog show had guys shooting them with traditional equipment too fyi.

"Blake, a question, is a crossbow even the new ones, a less effective weapon than a compound, just easier to use without practice? you also can't shoot them as far, max 40 yards?? to me people believing they are much more effective could be a huge problem, maybe not for most but it is the old 10% rule that could be detrimental."

Apparently its equal in effectiveness to a compound...by the stats i've seen in past years on the states/provinces that have allowed them. There's not enough change to argue about...it was an eye opener for me to learn all this stuff too. I initially thought the same as everyone else...that its more like a gun than a bow and way too effective....but its not the case. People get into things all the time without properly educating themselves first...somebody tells a little rumor and somebody spends some money on something and then find out its not what they were expecting at all. Thats why we have the bargain finder and the buy & sell section etc.;) It won't take the people long, that don't educate themselves before hand, to learn for themselves what the tool is really capable of....and that it is indeed a bow.

"Blake no reason a first timer would not be able to shoot a deer with a few months practice before the season with a vertical bow. i feel it would be more rewarding than just picking up someone elses crossbow and shooting it the day before!!"

I've seen first timers doing it with alot less time than that with todays equipment. For you and me....a compound or traditional would be more rewarding...but then we are speaking for everyone else too. Whats good for us must be good for them too right? Its the choice we are denying ourselves here. You and I might want to try one 15 yrs from now? If it makes sense to have the choice then i say 'yes please'...you just never know when your interests might change.

"Starting to find winter kills, could solve the management problems in areas this year."

Not sure what you meant here....do you mean the crossbow would help the situation?

See....i was a nice boy....just hope i made sense.

B

sorry, i had to edit, forgot a few things...

Rob

01-17-2007, 10:31 PM

The first time I shot a crossbow (and maybe I shouldn't be telling this because I look back now and think about how stupid the question really was, but it shows the misconception part about what a crossbow can and can't do) I asked the guy handing me the bow, "Does it kick?"

He got a pretty good chuckle out of that. And when I did shoot it, what did it do? It lept forward of course.

Jamie Hunt

01-18-2007, 07:25 PM

"Does it kick?"

Thats funny.. I actually had to think about it for a second
:rollin :rollin :rollin

Jamie

Chevy 454

01-19-2007, 09:57 AM

Blake, just a FYI. Bowtech is building crossbows.
strykerxbow.com/ (http://strykerxbow.com/)
A high performance unit!
..Al.

Anglinfool

01-19-2007, 10:02 AM

Interesting design. Give it a few years to see how it holds up, but to me, it has too many things that can break.

IMO, simple is better.

Blakeinator2

01-19-2007, 10:05 AM

How cool is that! I'm sure the other two are smart enough to recognize the opportunity as well. Should be an interesting few years to come. Thanks for the link.

B:D

sheep hunter

01-19-2007, 01:09 PM

Blake, just a FYI. Bowtech is building crossbows.

Yup...shot one last week.

Their new center pivot compound was pretty sweet too!

Rifle14

01-19-2007, 01:14 PM

After a long, long read to get through all the posts, I have a question about one of them. Someone mentioned wmu 248 in the context of allowing crossbows. I would like to know if there's a discussion thread anywhere on here about allowing shotguns/muzzleloaders in 248 during the general season. Not being a big bowhunter myself, and living just west of edmonton, I'm frustrated by not being able to hunt around home and at friend's places due to the massive 248 boundaries and their firearm restrictions. Just wondering if there's a thread out there already underway that would let me know how others feel about this.

Blakeinator2

01-19-2007, 01:15 PM

Here are the reasons i got into bowhunting....in order of importance.

1. Interest in pursueing game with a bow and arrow. That up close, personal, challenge, etc. etc. the satisfaction that comes it. The fact that you can be successful with such tackle etc. And its been everything i hoped and more.

2. To take advantage of longer hunting seasons, more opportunities, and less draws. I can just head out the door and hunt with minimal fuss. The bowzone around town was a huge attraction for me.

I like the idea of the bow zones around major centers. Just makes sense to me for a variety of reasons. Although you can still shoot guns at coyotes/gophers/birds etc. in those zones...it would be way too amplified if allowed into the big game stuff as thats what everyone is after. I think in our bow zone 212 they have a foothill liscense for about 8 weekdays in november for a couple antlerless tags that allow the shotguns/crossbows & muzzleloaders....so it keeps the trophy guys out of the picture but allows the meat guys to get a few close to home.

I think the best we could ask for...for more opportunities around home would be the crossbow. I suspect that if the crossbow is allowed anywhere first it would be the bowzones?...just guessing.

From what i've seen with the november gun season just outside the bowzone....you wouldn't want to see that kind of hunting traffic any closer to the higher population densities, just askin for more trouble than we need imo. I guess it comes down to 'theres a time and place' for everything eh?

B

sharpstick

01-21-2007, 11:50 AM

Blake the winterkill comment was nature is starting to take care of the deer numbers herself! We have alot of snow up here!! Crossbows would do nothing to help reduce deer numbers, its not that archers can't kill does most choose not to.(same as the rifle zones) The only thing that will increase doe kills other than vehicles is something like the cwd tags where you harvest a couple does and get another buck tag!!
The ABA took initiative to have a doe harvest draw, where every doe gave you one entry for the draw.

Still not buying your pro crossbow ideas!! If I was just starting out and if both were allowed in the archery season, I would still go with the vertical bow, for many many reasons.
The biggest reasons being it is a more effective weapon (KE), and is more accurate (the biggest one for me)!!Add all the off season activities already available for the vertical bow and it seems like a no brainer! but that is just me!!

About the 248 question, part of it is about safety and #s of people, acreages etc. you can use shotguns in strathcona but the land is a little different on the east side of edmonton than the west. If you already live west of edmonton you are only 15-20 minutes from the rifle zones! The other part is, it is a BOW ZONE!! Take advantage of it a take up archery!!

Blades

01-21-2007, 01:33 PM

The horizontal bow goes phhhhht......sounds like archery to me........(sorry sharpstick, couldn't resist...LOL)

"If I was just starting out and if both were allowed in the archery season, I would still go with the vertical bow, for many many reasons."
I don't think anyone is trying to covert you.....I like my vertical bow too. Keep using what you like best.

Todd

sharpstick

01-21-2007, 03:07 PM

No worries blade
I didn't take it as people converting me, I just prefer a bow!!

Blakeinator2

01-22-2007, 02:53 PM

"Still not buying your pro crossbow ideas!! If I was just starting out and if both were allowed in the archery season, I would still go with the vertical bow, for many many reasons."

So would i, but i'm a toy junkie and i don't have enough reasons yet to own a crossbow. But getting close, if it gets included in with the other bows in regards to hunting opportunities then i will have one.

My reasons may not be the same as a young/old/broken people, or the same as a guy who simply would rather use one instead of a compound or tradition bow....but for me i would love it mostly for being able to hand it to first timers and take very quick short practice and try and get them a deer with a bow. It would be nice to have a tool easy enough to learn and could fit anybody....my next reason is i'd love to kill a few coyotes that way for calling and i guess another good reason for me personally would be as a back up bow in case i had a failure with my compound then at least i could still hunt until i got it back into commission. I don't have a spare bow and i'm not a bow mechanic so mine would be back to a shop for repairs if necessary.

The key is having the choice. The choice is what we win here.......life is better with more choices if they make sense. This makes sense imo.

Anyhow, we'll get you converted someday, we've planted the seed....all its gonna do now is grow and grow.;) :lol

B

Stinky Buffalo

01-22-2007, 04:02 PM

Hi Guys,

A few months back in AO there was an article about crossbows ("Don't knock it until you've tried it").

I can't remember who the author was (Kevin Wilson?), but there was a very good point made in the column: Those who seem to be most vocal in their argument against crossbows have never tried one out.

Personally, I don't care a whole lot if they let crossbows into the archery-only season or not, but I would love to give it a whirl, even if I have to do it in rifle season. It's just another dimension of my favourite sport... Hunting! :D

Cheers,
Stinky

Blades

01-22-2007, 09:06 PM

I could help you out there, stinky....e-mail me at bladesandthings@airsurfer.ca
Todd

jrs

01-22-2007, 11:07 PM

I just want an excuse to buy another toy. A shotgun season would be nice as well, i think i could put together a sweet setup. I think the pros and cons of crossbows vs compound seem to even out, i changed my mind after looking into it more. Both have advantages in some areas.

Ok then

01-24-2007, 12:52 AM

The muzzleloader goes boom... I guess it's not any different than a modern centerfire....

crossbows......

01-24-2007, 01:13 AM

Heres an idea.... delete the bow seasons, make the general season open for alll weapons, any MZ seasons open to all guns, no more arguments..,..

Blakeinator2

01-24-2007, 10:22 AM

"no more arguments..."

:eek ....where's the fun in that?;)

B:b

Tree Guy

01-25-2007, 12:57 AM

Sounds like much ado about nothing. In these days, anything that can possibly attract and retain fellow outdoorsmen to our sport of hunting, can't be a bad thing. Archery gets extended seasons and exclusive zones for a couple of reasons or more. Ever bowhunt elk in grizzly country? Me neither! The exclusive bow zones are adjacent to urban areas (mainly), which is all private land that you must obtain permission for. It's not like bowhunters have this huge section of deer Disneyland all to themselves. They either have to work hard to obtain permission, or hunt rifle zones or hunt with the bears. The same goes with xbows. What's the difference? My only hesitation with xbows is(although I'd love to have one) in the hands of irresponsible individuals is that they are the ultimate "jacking" weapon.

Rob

01-25-2007, 01:09 AM

What's the difference? My only hesitation with xbows is(although I'd love to have one) in the hands of irresponsible individuals is that they are the ultimate "jacking" weapon.

as opposed to what? The gun, the compound bow? How is the Crossbow the ultimate "jacking" weapon?

209x50cal

01-25-2007, 08:04 AM

that they are the ultimate "jacking" weapon.
God, people do say the stupidest things. How would allowing the xbow to be used in archery make it this ultimate jacking weapon? They are legal to own now.

Blakeinator2

01-25-2007, 09:51 AM

See guys....its becoming fun again....just when we all thought it was finally over!:lol

Treeguy, would love to hear the reasoning it would be the ultimate jacking weapon? And whats jacking? I'm guessing you mean jack lighting but where i camped this fall during archery season for moose during the rut...all i heard in the middle of the night were gun shots. I think the boomsticks might be the ultimate jacking weapon no?;)

B:D

Chevy 454

01-25-2007, 10:08 AM

209x50cal

01-25-2007, 11:22 AM

Yes,perfect for a poacher. Get him in the lights,shoot,watch it run away, wait an hour for it to bleed out, then stumble through the bush with lights following a blood trail,who knows how far and then dragging it out, who knows how far.
Thank you Chevy for pointing out what is so obvious to the some of us!!! I can't believe how many people think that the scenario you so perfectly described is the "ultimate" way to poach an animal. Only an idiot would dream up such a scenario. I think some people just repeat what they have been told rather than think for themselves.

Blakeinator2

01-25-2007, 11:46 AM

Lol you guys.:lol Okay, i don't imagine we'll get too many lessons on how to poach the correct way on this, or any, message board but we can get creative and try to imagine how best to do it right. Too funny. I myself like to poach in the morning...and prefer my quarry on toast.:b

B:lol

p.s. my prefered tools of choice are fork & knife

Tree Guy

01-25-2007, 10:22 PM

Hooooly! I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest here but allow me to respond.

209X50: First I sometimes, but not usually, say the 'stupidest' things. And most definatelly am not an 'idiot'. Liberals are the ones who call names first and get answers later, so please, for the love of God don't lower us to that level. As for how making it legal for archery would make poaching with such a weapon more prevelent, I'll answer that in a moment.

Rob and Chevy: Rob, you asked how it is the ultimate and Chevy, you mentioned stumbling around after a blood trail in the dark.

Blake: You talked about camping and hearing tons of shots.

You guys see a trend here. I grew up in a poor rural agricultural/logging area. "Jacking" was a rather popular form of hunting because not everyone could afford to hunt, and not everyone could sometimes afford to eat. Often the poachers were the guys who were putting meat in the freezer for 20 or more people (and no, I'm not a native from the reserve)veryone knew who these guys were, but were percieved more as 'Robin Hoods' than criminals. Also, these guys were careful wildlife managers believe it or not. There were alot of mouths depending on them. It was not in their interests to overharvest areas, they had huge territories and harvested accordingly. Also, they never took money (maybe a bottle of rum, but...).

The locals new who they were and the CO's new who they were, as usually th CO's were locals too. Whoever over the generations (father taught son), it turned into the ultimate game of cat-and-mouse. The players knew the players. 'I'm going to get ya!', and 'Catch me if you can!'

The preferred method of these guys was to grab some beer and a buddy, toss the truck in 4X4 and run the old logging roads late at night until something crossed, and it was 'deer in headlights'. More often than not their weapon of choice was a 22magnum. It is a highly effective round within 50 yards if you head-shoot deer exclusively. Also, it's QUIET!
These guys all dreamed of X-bows because of their SILENCE, but they were not legal, and the compounds, well, they just seemed strange. At least a X-bow sort of looked like a rifle and you could put a scope on it. It was the dream machine!

So Chevy, they never, ever chase in the dark, they pull the animal (if the head-shot worked) in the truck, or come back the next day (with a cover-storey excuse if necessary) and find it.

Rob, as to how it is the ultimate, I hope that I've enlightend you a bit and Blake has proven my 'ultimate point by talking about all the shots he heard camping. In this age of wireless communication, shots in the dark are pretty iffy at 1 AM. This element will always exist in our community, and we must all do our best to limit it but we can never eliminate it. We are all disguested with stories of poaching. However, I'd rather catch the guy doing it strictly for a trophy, or then discovering 'ground shrinkage' and letting an animal go to waste. Than they guy helping his family and neighbours.

I hope that clears things up a bit.

Tree Guy

01-25-2007, 10:31 PM

Hey 209X50, I just re-read my reply and PLEASE do not think that I called you a liberal. My God. I was just irked with the 'stupidest', and 'idiot' words. I would NEVER, EVER associate a fellow hunter anywhere near the dreaded tag of liberal! Sorry.

209x50cal

01-25-2007, 10:37 PM

Tree Guy,
I just read through your nonsensical ramblings and only have one comment: Are you drunk man?

Brady

01-25-2007, 10:45 PM

Ever bowhunt elk in grizzly country?

Yup, every year, for 3 weeks straight. And will be doing it again in 212 days. This thread surely has gotten.....errrrr interesting.:lol :rollin .

Rob

01-25-2007, 11:33 PM

I'm not sure I made much sense of what you wrote either Tree! Still don't understand how a crossbow could be considered the ultimate poaching weapon... it's a bow. Can't shoot it out of a vehicle, forty yards is a long shot etc. etc.

Head shot with a bow? C'mon.

Tree Guy

01-26-2007, 12:45 AM

Re-read what I wrote please. It is a factual account of what happens where I grew up. 209X50, I took exception to stupid and idiot, then apologized for putting the tag liberal anywhere near your name. Your response....now I'm a drunk! Read it again please. In my attempts to shed light on different aspects of poaching I get called names. So listen, if you are so kind as to take your valueable time to re-read what I wrote and you STILL don't get it, let me know and I will take the time to re-wright it with SMALLER words and maybe some PICTURES!

Rob, I'm the most disappointed in you as an administrator. I described headshots with a rifle (preferablly a 22mag) at 50 yards or less. If they were dead on the road to throw in the truck and quickly leave, they come back the next day with a cover storey if needed. I made no mention of X-bow head shots.

209x50cal

01-26-2007, 07:43 AM

You know tree guy I grew up in rural Northern Alberta and yes there was a lot of poaching that took place back in the day. About the only thing you got right in your romanticized drivel was the case of beer, poachers were not "Robin Hoods" helping anyone - they were drunks that sold poached animals to finance their drinking habits. Far from caring a good @#%$ about the environment they wounded and lost as much or more than they recovered. 22 mags were not the weapon of choice old, 30-30s and .303s were and scopes were unheard of in those days, so the shooting was atrocious and messy. Head shots, what a laugh!!
Sounds like I knew some? You bet everyone knew them by the shot off radio antennas and bullet holes in truck boxes, hoods and mirrors. Drunk and in the dark it is pretty easy to tag yourself a truck.
So don't blather on aggrandizing criminals and stick to the topic which had nothing to do with 22 mags and Robin hood.
If you really believe in the silly stuff you typed and it is not a result of an inability to communicate I do stand by my statements.

Blakeinator2

01-26-2007, 09:45 AM

Thats the dream isn't it...that the crossbow is some magical tool....:eek :eek

I wonder how many trips out it would take those drunken robin hoods to realize what a crappy tool the crossbow was for 'jackin'.:rolleyes

Yeah i'm sure they 'talked' about what a great tool it would be but if they tried one they'd be singin a different tune forsure...or switchin bottles.

Would be funny to see them driving around with an arrow stickin out of their hood. Wonder what the cover story for that would be? Its an antenna ociffer....a new fangled carbon fiber antenna....gives me better gas mileage too...burp.

Oh i hope he keeps coming back...this is going to be good.

B

Duffy4

01-26-2007, 02:32 PM

"Oh i hope he keeps coming back...this is going to be good."

oh you thrive on seeing folks on here in an argument rather than having a good worthwhile disgussion.

Again I am surprised that the mods allow personel insults to muddy the waters of a resonable disgussion.

Robin in Rocky

Blakeinator2

01-26-2007, 02:33 PM

Duffy duffy duffy....where has your sense of humor gone...speaking of which....i'm trying to remember the last time you cracked a joke here? Loosen up man, its can't all be righteous and good for the world ya know.

Is it not okay to have some fun, especially when it looks like someone else is trying to do the same? Did you not read what he posted? Its like he hasn't read a thing up to this point...from either of the two crossbow threads. He's so far out there it almost seems like a wind up. And when did i give him a personal insult?

I wouldn't worry about what "i" might say, i'm gonna keep trying to have fun with it and keep it light if i can...i think others will get way more serious with this guy. That was what i meant when i said that line you quoted....was to see what other folks were going to say to him....like you for instance...your usually a pretty intolerant guy when it comes to topics that don't relate to legal stuff etc. why haven't you chimed in yet?

P.s. the worthwhile discussion has already been and gone....several times, this is all good times now...jump on in anytime

B;) :b

While i'm at it....Tree Guy...i think it would be ideal if all the 'jackers' got their hands on the crossbow...it would be doing the rest of us, and the game, a huge favor if that was the only tool they used! (a tool which they could legally own anytime, makes me wonder why they didn't buy any crossbows then?)

Tree Guy

01-27-2007, 03:09 AM

I'm back!

Hey 209X50, thanks for a realitively rational response, and I appreciate your what you said. It is truthful.

Blake, thanks for a little bit of levity! I've really enjoyed this bantering now that I am not being called names. I may be new to this board but it's fun to shake things up a bit. That's what it's all about. Discussion=progress!

209X50, I believe 100% your poacher experiences. They are a reality. I will take the high road and not disagree with your post by simply name-calling.

You told us about your poachers, I told you about mine. If you do not believe what I've posted just call me a liar and we shall agree to disagree. Just no more name calling please, we're all grown-ups here.

sheep hunter

01-28-2007, 09:31 PM

I know this has been said several times on here already but it seems a few folks are bit too thick headed to absorb it so I'll say it again. It's perfectly legal already to use and own crossbows in Alberta so making them legal during archery season would do nothing to increase the incidents of poaching with them.There is absolutely nothing stopping a poacher from using one now so including them in archery season wouldn't change a thing for poachers. It seems pretty simple to me. That and they are a far less effective poaching tool than several weapons already leagal in this province.

Tree Guy

01-29-2007, 01:07 AM

Thanks Sheephunter,

You are correct in you're statement about effectiveness. Of course a .300mag is going to be more effective than an X-bow in making a quick and humane kill. But the point Blakeinator made earlier about hearing all those shots in the night camping illustrates (partially) my point. X-bows make no noise (compared to a rifle) and your location cannot be pinpointed from miles away by CO's.

I know that they a legal right now. My concern was that by widening where and when you can use them may make them more mainstream and thus statistically increasing the probability of abuse. That's all. I'm sorry that this all got so blown out of proportion. However, it's been fun though! Happy hunting guys!

Sean

Okotokian

01-31-2007, 02:27 PM

God, people do say the stupidest things.

Only an idiot would dream up such a scenario.

I just read through your nonsensical ramblings and only have one comment: Are you drunk man?

About the only thing you got right in your romanticized drivel was

Hey 209x50 cal, do you always speak to people like this who have an opinion different or less well-grounded than yours? The guy had a different opinion than you about jacking. Big deal.

Here's a suggestion for next time. Try this: "Good point Tree, but my experience tells me that a gun is a better jacking tool than a crossbow, and here's why I think that..."

You're Welcome :x

thanks

02-02-2007, 03:09 AM

Thanks

209x50cal

02-02-2007, 08:34 AM

Here's a suggestion for next time. Try this: "Good point Tree, but my experience tells me that a gun is a better jacking tool than a crossbow, and here's why I think that..."

Hey great idea! And then we could all hold hands and sing Kumbaya and eat tofu burgers and... Nah, I think I'll continue to exercise my right to express my opinion, but thanks for caring. (sarcasm off)

Duffy4

02-02-2007, 08:55 AM

I have to agree with "Okatoaker" on his last post. 209 you are intitled to your opinion and to express it. But there are rules about how you can express it on this board and I think you tread on those rules at times)

Keep your powder dry!

Robin in Rocky

Okotokian

02-02-2007, 12:03 PM

Nah, I think I'll continue to exercise my right to express my opinion, but thanks for caring. (sarcasm off)

We are very interested in your opinions on the subject at hand. We aren't interested in your insulting "opinion" of other members' intelligence or any other personal characteristics.

Blakeinator2

02-03-2007, 12:29 AM

Way to go 209....not sure how i slipped under the radar but glad i did.;) :b

B:lol

p.s. go flames go...columbus?...where is that anyhow?:lol

Tree Guy

02-03-2007, 02:27 AM

Hey 209 I'm going to stick up for you a bit. I'm new to this site and I enjoyed our disagreement, that's life. Everyone has an opinion. If we all agreed here it would be a boring site. I respected your opinion but called you on the name calling; that's all. You told you me your truth, I told you mine.

Blades

02-03-2007, 10:30 PM

Ok, guys, can we put this name calling behind us? I think everyone regrets any defamation of character that may have happened in a burst of emotion......I for one would like to get back to discussing horizontal bows.
I would like to vote that the horizontal bow is NOT a good poaching tool, for some good reasons previously posted.

Todd

rocanada

02-04-2007, 03:19 PM

A xbow would be just as affective as a bow when it comes to poaching ,guns would be ones best choice. As for clasification of xbows , in the hunting regs it states " 12 or 13 year olds may only hunt big game with a bow and arrow or crossbow " .
Why would they combine the two bows in this case but not let xbowers into the archery season?

sportsman

02-15-2007, 08:04 PM

Maybe you are not allowed to rifle hunt until age 14, but 12 and 13 year olds can bow hunt in archery season or crossbow hunt in rifle season.

Northern Hunting Mom

02-15-2007, 09:44 PM

I've only read through page 3 so I'm probably repeating someone else.

I decided to vote that crossbow not be included with the archery season, however that would be dependent on a couple changes that I feel are needed. I have to admit that I live in an area that has a low human pop. and a high wild game pop but its is hard to drop a moose with a bow, no matter the type and virtually impossible to hit one of our caribou.

One change I would like to see is to make it easier for disabled people to use the crossbow option for archery season. A doctor's note with some type of imagery showing your limited movement should be more than satisfactory. Having proof of a surgery should guarantee a disabled permit.

Muzzleloaders nowadays are so modern in design that the expertise required compared to 50 yrs ago is almost nil compared to using a rifle. I believe a primitive weapon season should be in place but keep the weapons truly primitive. No scopes especially.

I could agree with crossbow being included in archery season if you were not allowed to put a scope on it.

Jamie Hunt

02-17-2007, 01:23 PM

Northern.. Where abouts do you live?

Jamie

Northern Hunting Mom

02-17-2007, 04:03 PM

Yukon for 11 more days then on the road to Edmonton. I have a lot of family around Bonnyville, a brother that lives in Redcliff and a sister that lives in Coaldale. My husband has family in Edmonton, Calgary and Red Deer.

Blades

02-17-2007, 09:46 PM

Welcome to the Edmonton area, NHM. If you are open to the idea, I would like to extend my welcome in the form of an invitation to shoot some arrows from both vertical and horizontal bows plus an impromptu information session on horizontal bows. I am always looking for a shooting partner(competition)....he he

Todd

Northern Hunting Mom

02-17-2007, 10:49 PM

I look forward to meeting like minded fanatics. I do believe I will be living fairly close to a gun and bow range. I'm hoping to go bow hunting some day with my husband's Aunt. I'll have to get good first though. Too much chance of shot lost game if you're not good or better.

BTW, is there any legislation on whether dogs are allowed to be used for blood trailing big game?

Blades

02-17-2007, 11:58 PM

Yes there is, and you can't....however, I sell some products that would help you out there....
maybe I can help you out,...I am an instructor in several areas.
Todd

Tree Guy

02-19-2007, 02:15 AM

Hey NHM! I know it sounds stupid, but do you know Lisa Haagensen? She and her husband (ish) run a hotel in town.

FisherPotch

02-19-2007, 04:22 AM

Trying to get back on topic here.
I'm not a skilled enough hunter to make an attempt at bow hunting but i do have an opinion. I'd think that the xbow has a few advantages over the compound bow.

1. No need to draw
2. Anchor point is always consistant
3. The ability to use a scope
4. The ability to use the prone position

I've never fired a cross bow but i'd bet i could make a better grouping using one than i could with any other type of bow. This is assuming that it would be similar to shooting a rifle.

I agree that all bows are primative compaired to high power but i personaly feel that xbows deserve a class of their own.

Blakeinator2

02-19-2007, 09:28 AM

Fisher,

will try to answer your questions...i do alot of predator calling and if you can lay prone for more than 30 minutes without getting extremely uncomfortable then that may be an advantage to you...

try to watch a hunting video in it with a crossbow...i just watched one where a guy killed a nice elk with one and that thing looked like it was a serious pain in arse to lug around...it was quite large...

if you can get past these two things and get into a shooting position within range of game then you've got a good chance from there...regardless of scope/trigger

and since you haven't shot a bow...todays modern compound bows are something else, so easy to learn, so smooth and quiet...a joy to shoot. We have essentially put a trigger on them with the release aid, we have a rear sight (peep) and front sight with multiple range aiming points...fiber optic to boot) try to imagine when you draw the bow back and it cams over and your at your anchor point holding maybe 20 lbs..(20 lbs your stretching between your two arms and locked into a comfy position).your solid as a rock, you can hold and aim like a gun on a bi-pod...you'll start to wiggle abit after a minute or two as long as your not pulling a bow back with too much weight for yourself...i can hold a bow at draw for way longer than i can free hand a gun(and therefore crossbow)...some points to consider and i'm a few years in and now practice to at least 70 yrds so i'm more comfortable if i am presented a 50 yrd opportunity etc. but most guys i've seen get into it can shoot very well to 30 yrds within a half hour and within a couple weeks they are doing extremely well...a bit of coaching on your form right off the bat so you can understand the goal of consistancy then your on your way...its pretty easy.

there will be differences between the two, pro's/con's but mostly just 'differences' before the shot opportunity and at the moment of truth...ultimately they'll be about as effective as each other but i agree with Sheephunter...if i was doing any kind of hunting which required lots of hiking/stalking etc...then i'll drag my 4lb compound around...

hope that helps

FisherPotch

02-23-2007, 11:44 AM

Good point Blake, when i think about it the only thing i've shot from the prone position is gophers! I have shot many bows before just don't own one, but my buddy has gone thru a few he shoots a bowtec allegiance, what a machine! But for sumone with little practice i still think that a crossbow would make better groups, mainly because of the consistant anchor point. Do u think it's possible for sumone to just pick one up and shoot accuratly or would it take some practice like a compound?

Good point on the free handing too, i bet it is substantialy easier to hold a bow steady past the cams breaking point than it is to free hand a rifle or xbow. If i had a lane or place to shoot id think about getting a good compound just to increase the length of my hunting season. But like i said in my last post i don't have enough experience to get into bow hunting yet, i have a hard enough time getin close enough for the .270. Lol.

Blakeinator2

02-23-2007, 12:47 PM

Hey Fischer, as far as bowhunting goes...if your interest becomes enough then like anything else new a guy gets into...just need to take the plunge and jump into it with both feet.

Pick up a used bow at first to see if after a season or two its something your going to stick to...then if you like it enough splurge for the high end bow of your dreams. Spend some time at the local archery shop getting set up for the first time...arrows, tips on shooting form etc. and then pick up a cheap bag target, maybe some cheap arrows with some judo points for the gophers in the summer and practice when you can...or just pop by the local range for practice sessions.

Its actually pretty easy with todays equipment to get set up and shooting well in a very short period of time, you can put it down for awhile, pick it up later and once again your shooting well again.

As far as the crossbow shooting goes i haven't shot one yet but as far as i know its similar to shooting a gun except most seem to have a heavy trigger pull and they recoil forward...so there are differences but essentially if one is familiar with shooting a gun they could probably shoot a crossbow fairly accurate quicker than a compound bow? If you decide to get into a compound someday...you will be surprised how quick you will be up and running proficiently...if you've got a good shop or a buddy thats been at it awhile to get you started...you will be surprised how easy it is.

I remember getting started and before i jumped in how daunting it seemed...but now i realize that theres no need to think its a real big deal....todays equipment makes it simple. There's no mystery to shooting a bow well now...the science behind them and shooting them is way to well understood now.

Step one, get into a bow shop and tell them you might be interested in getting into the sport for hunting and that you've zero experience. Step two, sized up for your draw length. Step three...see if they'll let you shoot a bow or two off their used rack...or any demo bows they may have to see if you like it....if you start shooting one thats relatively sized for you and you have some decent instruction right off the bat you'll probably only need a dozen shots and you'll be like...'oh yeah...i can do this!' and you'll be away from there. I'll bet in a couple hours with the right shop you'll have done that and then probably cruised the used bow rack and you may even walk out of there with your first bow.

You don't have to spend a ton to get into the game either. The bow is merely the tool...so like guns you can buy used, buy a stevens 200 or you can go right up to the sako sort of thing if your really committed and know your going to love it no matter what. But you'll likely be able to shoot either of the choices just as well so there is a way to do it for pretty much any budget.

Just a matter of finding some time and going to try it out and see.

Hope that helps and hope you try it out...if anything heading to a good shop to blow an afternoon is a good adventure anyhow so give it a whirl.

B