Humminbird vs Lowrance

[FlYiNGuY]

In the market for a new finder this season. Looking opinions on what brand you prefer and why. I know it's a bit of a Ford and Chevy discussion but looking for input.
I'm looking at either a Helix 10 with the MEGA or the Lowrance carbon 9... Thoughts? It's it really worth the extra $$? or can I get into a model that will do basically the same for less $$?
Will be used for trolling to find walleye and some lake trout fishing as well.
I sold my last boat with everything so starting fresh.. will buy a trolling motor to pair with either brand. I've had bird in the past but while looking at options I like the Lowrance menu speed and function.(touch screen)
Thanks All!

[Lowrance Fishburn]

Lowrance is better IMO, buuuut i have a portable Hummingbird fishing buddy with color screen and its been bang on for depth and temp - sucks batteries dry though. I say Lowrance

[RavYak]

Six of one half a dozen of the other.

The Helix 10 units are awesome and the new mega imaging looks crazy good, the Lowrance doesn't compare to the mega imaging quality up close. The lowrance on the other hand has the 3d structure scan capability.

The Humminbirds just added bottom hardness and weed mapping to their autochart whereas the new sonarcharts live on HDS will only do depth. I believe you can do bottom hardness and weed on insight genesis though.

I like the fit, finish and size of the HDS units. I could care less about the touch screen but some people like that. Speed wise I haven't played with a Carbon but if anything I would say the helix's are faster for boot time and for maps compared to an HDS(HDS maps probably slower due to more detailed background map though).

I honestly don't think a person can go wrong with the Helix 10, the HDS's are nice but the 3d structure scan version in a smaller screen size(9) is over 60% more money... There are some HDS Gen 3's available a bit cheaper now that the Carbons have been announced though and they would be more comparable to the Helix 10 price wise.

[Salmo]

I use Lowrance and love the Gen 3 units, but the final decision may come down to the brand of Trolling motor you want to pair with it. MG with Lowrance and MK with HB but you likely already knew that.

My Xi5/Gen3 combo works really well and if will be creating routes with any sort of frequency touchscreen will save you a lot of time. I seems like Lowrance and Navionics have solved the lack of real-time mapping (although I will continue to save my tracks and generate maps with Reefmaster). Go play with the units and see what you prefer.

[RavYak]

One nice thing about Lowrance down your way is that a lot of the lakes have already been mapped on insight genesis. Up here around Edmonton coverage is still fairly spotty.

Lowrance will have detailed maps quicker then Humminbird since both insight and navionics collect user data whereas humminbird requires you to make your own maps(or get a navionics card and hope guys update it).

[EZM]

The Humminbirds just added bottom hardness and weed mapping to their autochart whereas the new sonarcharts live on HDS will only do depth. I believe you can do bottom hardness and weed on insight genesis though.



My Humminbird ONIX has had bottom hardness since 2013 when I purchased it.

I think the newer technology is the weed mapping.

I agree, you can't go wrong either way. Lowrance and Humminbird both have outstanding units with great features.

[huntsfurfish]

My Humminbird ONIX has had bottom hardness since 2013 when I purchased it.

I think the newer technology is the weed mapping.

I agree, you can't go wrong either way. Lowrance and Humminbird both have outstanding units with great features.

Had to rub my eyes, thought I was having a halucification.:);)lol





That said I also agree.

[RavYak]

My Humminbird ONIX has had bottom hardness since 2013 when I purchased it.

I think the newer technology is the weed mapping.

I agree, you can't go wrong either way. Lowrance and Humminbird both have outstanding units with great features.

Bottom hardness autochart live or bottom hardness when making maps using autochart pro on the computer?

The autochart live helix models did not have bottom hardness last year, I know that and the weeds is new for them this year(as well as being offered on the 5's and 7's as well).

[FlYiNGuY]

Thanks everyone, all excellent info! About the cartography- I was told by the bird rep at the boat show that in the 2017's you no longer have to export data to a computer to build your own lake maps. Can anyone confirm this?
The price on the Lowrance has got me hesitant going that way, and the clarity is nothing compared to some of the mega images I'm seeing online.. all at a much less price point on the bird.
Also hearing mega ducer doesn't read well at speed. How many add ons would I need? I know it never ends..
Another plus for the bird is the Bluetooth on the bird now talks to the new '17 trolling motors if with the link.. no cables.
Hmmmm.....

[FlYiNGuY]

Bottom hardness autochart live or bottom hardness when making maps using autochart pro on the computer?

The autochart live helix models did not have bottom hardness last year, I know that and the weeds is new for them this year(as well as being offered on the 5's and 7's as well).

Did some reading.. as I understand, the Helix 10 comes with the autochart live but no bottom hardness or SI mosaic overlay. If you want both of those it is an upgrade to the pro software. Helix has 8hrs of storage internal (not sure how that relates to data) anymore than that, it's the zero lines card.

Looks like my best option for $$ would be Helix 10 mega SI and the add on of Navionics + for the region. Then as I build my own maps I still have a rough estimate of structure. Thoughts?

Lowrance, I like the simple functionality, but the comparable unit would be out of my budget!

[SamSteele]

I have a Helix 9 SI Gen 1. Autochart Live allows you to build maps as you drive. There are 8 hrs internal memory or you add a zero lines card ($100-$120) and have pretty much as many hours as you would ever need. They came out with an update last fall that adds bottom hardness and vegetation layers to the autochart live functionality as well.

I bought my boat last year and went with the Helix unit entirely due to Autochart Live. I didn't want to have to drive an area, upload the data, download the processed data in order to get a map. I can map my entire lake while I fish without having to connect to anything. The addition of bottom hardness and vegetation layers as a free update was a huge win this past fall too.

Had an HDS7 G1 on my last boat and the bird is sooooo much more useful for me.

SS


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[idaman]

If you care about customer service at all stay as far away as possible from anything Hummingbird.

[RavYak]

Did some reading.. as I understand, the Helix 10 comes with the autochart live but no bottom hardness or SI mosaic overlay. If you want both of those it is an upgrade to the pro software. Helix has 8hrs of storage internal (not sure how that relates to data) anymore than that, it's the zero lines card.

Looks like my best option for $$ would be Helix 10 mega SI and the add on of Navionics + for the region. Then as I build my own maps I still have a rough estimate of structure. Thoughts?

Lowrance, I like the simple functionality, but the comparable unit would be out of my budget!

Bottom hardness is now done live, as is weeds.

SI overlay would have to be done on computer. I understand you can just use a regular sd card to hold mapping data(don't need zero lines card) but it won't show you outline of lake and wont look quite as nice because of that, but something to think about to save a few bucks. Navionics + would be good to have to get started.

Here is some of the Helix info I been watching lately.

Mega imaging, super clear although reduced visibility distance(but capable of using lower frequencies as well if you want further visibility)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIiwiAzRotk

Bottom hardness/weed mapping

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXSCrac2eZY

[Gerry]

One good point is that the fishin hole is a repair outlet for Lowrance.
You have to send Hummingbird away for repairs at your cost.

[Willowtrail]

Six of one half a dozen of the other.

The Helix 10 units are awesome and the new mega imaging looks crazy good, the Lowrance doesn't compare to the mega imaging quality up close. The lowrance on the other hand has the 3d structure scan capability.

Where have you seen a new Carbon? They aren't out yet.
I love my gen 2 touch and planning to upgrade and network to a Carbon once they come out.

To the OP
The HDS Carbon is touch screen and now has pinch to zoom just like our phones have. The onscreen keyboard is great for making waypoints abs really fast to type.

The Helix isn't a touch screen so you're comparing apples to oranges. Hummingbird is coming out with a new touchscreen unit to replace the Onyx.

I love my Insight Genesis and use it on any lake I go and now can overlay live structure scan.

[RavYak]

Where have you seen a new Carbon? They aren't out yet.
I love my gen 2 touch and planning to upgrade and network to a Carbon once they come out.

To the OP
The HDS Carbon is touch screen and now has pinch to zoom just like our phones have. The onscreen keyboard is great for making waypoints abs really fast to type.

The Helix isn't a touch screen so you're comparing apples to oranges. Hummingbird is coming out with a new touchscreen unit to replace the Onyx.

I love my Insight Genesis and use it on any lake I go and now can overlay live structure scan.

I haven't seen the new Carbon yet just the videos and info that Lowrance and some others have posted.

The side imaging and structure scan 3d hasn't changed. They have brighter screens, faster dual core processor, dual channel chirp sonar(can view 2 different sonar frequencies at same time), sonarchart live(which is also available as an update for gen 3 units).

The new Humminbird replacing the Onix is called the Solix it is only available in a 12 and 15 inch size. The 12 inch Solix with mega imaging is the same price as the 9 inch HDS Carbon with structure scan 3d.

Insight genesis is by far the biggest advantage Lowrance has imo. Lowrance is going to have accurate maps before Humminbird because they collect and share data whereas with the Humminbird you need to map all your lakes on your own.

[FlYiNGuY]

Thanks everyone! I think the helix 10 mega will get the nod, I can't see the value in an extra grand for less detailed images, even if it is quicker/easier to mark waypoints.

[Walleyedude]

A few points about comparing Lowrance and Humminbird. It's pretty important to compare apples to apples when comparing prices.

The closest competitor to the Helix units from Lowrance isn't really the HDS Carbon or even the Gen3, they're a step above, the direct comparison is the Elite Ti units.

If you want to compare the HDS units, you need to compare them to the Onix or the new Solix units from Humminbird.

If you compare the Helix and Elite units, the price points and features are very similar. At that level, they will both have good 2D, DI/SI, CHIRP depending on the model, built in live auto mapping, and the ability to connect to a trolling motor.

The Lowrance advantages are the touch screen, which is HUGE in my opinion, Insight Genesis, and better 2D broadband sonar.

The Helix units with Mega imaging offer better SI and a slightly lower price.

One thing to note regarding the side imaging though, is that with both units, but the Humminbird Mega in particular, you need to be travelling at speeds of 5-8 mph in order to see images with anything close to the clarity you see in the advertisements.

They're both great units, you can't go wrong with either one. For me, the touch screen on the Lowrance is the deciding feature. It's so much easier to use and customize to your preferences. Kinda like using an IPhone vs an old Motorola flip phone lol.

[RavYak]

A few points about comparing Lowrance and Humminbird. It's pretty important to compare apples to apples when comparing prices.

The closest competitor to the Helix units from Lowrance isn't really the HDS Carbon or even the Gen3, they're a step above, the direct comparison is the Elite Ti units.

Depends how you compare them. Capability wise or functionally. The Helix's easily compete with the HDS's capability wise and they have features such as mega imaging that the Elite Ti's do not compete with.

Functionally the Helix doesn't hold a candle to the HDS but that is where the decision has to be made. Do you want a lexus or a toyota, they are both going to do the same thing ones just going to be nicer doing it.

Humminbird obviously thinks their Helix models compete well enough with the HDS models otherwise they wouldn't have got rid of the Onix or would have built a smaller screen Solix.

One thing to note regarding the side imaging though, is that with both units, but the Humminbird Mega in particular, you need to be travelling at speeds of 5-8 mph in order to see images with anything close to the clarity you see in the advertisements.

Watch that video I posted. He is getting amazing clarity at speeds of 2-3 mph so I would have to disagree with this statement based on what I have seen. The key is to match scroll speed to boat speed but that goes for any side imaging fish finder.

The only downside to mega imaging that I have seen is its reduced range. This can be noticed in the video when he switches between frequencies but if you need longer range you can just use the lower frequency which is on par with the other manufacturers standard side imaging.

[FlYiNGuY]

A few points about comparing Lowrance and Humminbird. It's pretty important to compare apples to apples when comparing prices.

The closest competitor to the Helix units from Lowrance isn't really the HDS Carbon or even the Gen3, they're a step above, the direct comparison is the Elite Ti units.

If you want to compare the HDS units, you need to compare them to the Onix or the new Solix units from Humminbird.

If you compare the Helix and Elite units, the price points and features are very similar. At that level, they will both have good 2D, DI/SI, CHIRP depending on the model, built in live auto mapping, and the ability to connect to a trolling motor.

The Lowrance advantages are the touch screen, which is HUGE in my opinion, Insight Genesis, and better 2D broadband sonar.

The Helix units with Mega imaging offer better SI and a slightly lower price.

One thing to note regarding the side imaging though, is that with both units, but the Humminbird Mega in particular, you need to be travelling at speeds of 5-8 mph in order to see images with anything close to the clarity you see in the advertisements.

They're both great units, you can't go wrong with either one. For me, the touch screen on the Lowrance is the deciding feature. It's so much easier to use and customize to your preferences. Kinda like using an IPhone vs an old Motorola flip phone lol.

All very good points. Thank you. I do agree the humminbird feels a bit bulky and archaic to use. I was comparing the mega SI image to the SI Lowrance has. The 3D structure scan doesn't seem very detailed either. You're right though I should compare a comparable price points and go from there. I do like the mega SI. Even if it's at higher than trolling speeds. You can then find fish then go target them accordingly. Back to hmmmmm.

[Walleyedude]

Depends how you compare them. The Helix's easily compete with the HDS's capability wise and they have features such as mega imaging that the Elite Ti's do not compete with.

Functionally the Helix doesn't hold a candle to the HDS but that is where the decision has to be made. Do you want a lexus or a toyota, they are both going to do the same thing ones just going to be nicer doing it.[/quote]

The Lowrance Elite Ti series competes with the HDS capability wise too, that doesn't make them equivalent.

I do agree with your basic premise though. All the sonar units from every manufacturer share the same basic capability these days, and they all do it pretty well. The functionality, added capability, and better build quality are what separates the higher end units.

Watch that video I posted. He is getting amazing clarity at speeds of 2-3 mph so I would have to disagree with this statement based on what I have seen. The key is to match scroll speed to boat speed but that goes for any side imaging fish finder.

The only downside to mega imaging that I have seen is its reduced range. This can be noticed in the video when he switches between frequencies but if you need longer range you can just use the lower frequency which is on par with the other manufacturers standard side imaging.

The manufacturers themselves, both Lowrance and Humminbird, suggest speeds of 5-8 mph for optimum SI performance, and that's been my experience with SI. It definitely works best in that range, anything from about 2-2.5 mph or less (ie trolling speed) and clarity suffers. I couldn't find any info on optimum speeds for the Mega, maybe it will be capable of better resolution at slower speeds.

Mega imaging is the key feature that separates the Helix. It definitely has potential for smaller area, high definition SI and is a potential advantage for Humminbird. It'll be a while before all the facts are in on it, it will certainly be interesting to watch.

[Walleyedude]

All very good points. Thank you. I do agree the humminbird feels a bit bulky and archaic to use. I was comparing the mega SI image to the SI Lowrance has. The 3D structure scan doesn't seem very detailed either. You're right though I should compare a comparable price points and go from there. I do like the mega SI. Even if it's at higher than trolling speeds. You can then find fish then go target them accordingly. Back to hmmmmm.

Beyond the 3D imaging which is fascinating in itself, the Lowrance StructureScan 3D provides a MUCH better SI image that is clearer and covers a larger area than the standard StructureScan HD. The detailed StructureScan overlay maps it creates are pretty amazing.

It's pricey though, there's no arguing that lol.

[RavYak]

Just to throw another curve ball at people considering units.

Don't write off the Garmin units. Biggest downside to them is that they refuse to get along with Navionics although Garmin does have the same mapping data currently on their lake vu units(won't have same quality once Navionics is updated by users though). Chirp, side imaging is all comparable to the other brands and one thing Garmin has that nothing else does is Panoptix which is real time forward or downward facing sonar. Pretty neat and if they can refine the technology further will be a game changer imo(already is in some regards).

Pretty soon the fish aren't going to be able to hide anywhere the way these units are improving each year.

I really wanted to upgrade this year but it doesn't look like it is going to happen due to other fishing financial decisions lol.

[JohninAB]

I will not get into the mapping differences between the two brands as I have found the mapping novelty has wore off. Insight Genesis will do that to you. Such a poor experience back in the day that could not be bothered now.

If I was going to buy now, I would go with Humminbird and Minn Kota as they seem to have a better dealer network up here. I have a Lowrance HDS and Motorguide Xi5 and the dealer support up here blows. Need a quick detach mount for the Xi5, back ordered. Need an adapter cable to hook the Xi5 up to a Lowrance unit, try to figure out which cable you need,do not ask Motorguide as they haven't a clue, then order it. Walk into the stores and look at stock and accessories on the shelf and easy to see which companies are interested in your business.

This is my opinion and experience only, YMMV!

[Sea Hawk]

I have two units in my boat. One is a gen2 touch and the other does not have a touch screen. I do not like the touch screen feature because at some point in the day you always end up touching the screen with something on my finger that leaves a spot or a streak. I would much rather use buttons.

[Walleyedude]

Just a heads up for anyone looking for a new sonar unit -

Bass Pro has the Lowrance HDS7 Gen 3 units on sale for $805 during their spring sale. That's a crazy good deal!

[Willowtrail]

Just a heads up for anyone looking for a new sonar unit -

Bass Pro has the Lowrance HDS7 Gen 3 units on sale for $805 during their spring sale. That's a crazy good deal!

Is that a price you saw in store? Is it Canadian dollars or posted online in American?

If Canadian that's a great deal

[Walleyedude]

Is that a price you saw in store? Is it Canadian dollars or posted online in American?

If Canadian that's a great deal

In store at CrossIron and in Canadian dollars.

I didn't believe it when I saw it and had the guys at the counter check if it was correct. It is.

I don't need one but I almost bought one anyway lol.

They only have a few of them.

[FlYiNGuY]

Thanks for the heads up! That's not in their flyer. I'll go in and check it out.

[SamSteele]

I believe there is a rebate on some Lowrance units as well.


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[Stinky Buffalo]

Just to throw another curve ball at people considering units.

Don't write off the Garmin units.

That's funny you should mention that! I was considering one of the Garmin units for my inflatable.

[EZM]

Bottom hardness autochart live or bottom hardness when making maps using autochart pro on the computer?

The autochart live helix models did not have bottom hardness last year, I know that and the weeds is new for them this year(as well as being offered on the 5's and 7's as well).

Yes - BUT - I don't have the Helix - I have the ONIX 10SI - these units came out with bottom hardness, mosaic, etc.. right out of the box and a few other features not available on the original Helix units (not sure about the new ones).

[EZM]

Had to rub my eyes, thought I was having a halucification.:);)lol





That said I also agree.

I was drunk when I posted that ..... and in a good mood. :)

[huntsfurfish]

I was drunk when I posted that ..... and in a good mood. :)

:sHa_shakeshout:

lol

[FlYiNGuY]

Stopped into bass pro tonight. They have 1 Lowrance HDS 7 gen 3 left plus the demo. It comes with the 83/200 ducer. Regular $1299 so it's a good price but that screen sure is small.

One other thing I did notice is the motorguide Xi5 at the same thrust rating as the new terrova is Almost $1000 cheaper once all the rebates settle. That's a BIG difference!!

[RavYak]

Yes - BUT - I don't have the Helix - I have the ONIX 10SI - these units came out with bottom hardness, mosaic, etc.. right out of the box and a few other features not available on the original Helix units (not sure about the new ones).

I thought the bottom hardness and mosaic was done on the computer with autochart pro, I never realized that the Onix units themselves were capable of all that.

The new helix's have bottom hardness and weeds added now but still not SI mosaic to my knowledge. A bit surprised by that since they must be capable of adding it as well if they already had it on the old Onix units.

[RavYak]

Stopped into bass pro tonight. They have 1 Lowrance HDS 7 gen 3 left plus the demo. It comes with the 83/200 ducer. Regular $1299 so it's a good price but that screen sure is small.

One other thing I did notice is the motorguide Xi5 at the same thrust rating as the new terrova is Almost $1000 cheaper once all the rebates settle. That's a BIG difference!!

To really take advantage of SI you pretty much need a 9+ inch screen and the bigger the better. The small screen units will show you the obvious structure but it will be hard to interpret the fine details.

[EZM]

I thought the bottom hardness and mosaic was done on the computer with autochart pro, I never realized that the Onix units themselves were capable of all that.

The new helix's have bottom hardness and weeds added now but still not SI mosaic to my knowledge. A bit surprised by that since they must be capable of adding it as well if they already had it on the old Onix units.

You they are, and you are correct - they did add these features on the ONIX series only through a software update, however, that was years before it came out on the Helix units I think. (even before the first Helix unit was ever on the market actually).

I guess that's why you "pay the price premium" ( ONIX versus Helix) for the slighter higher end units. A lot of guys who spent the $4500 on an ONIX only to have Humminbird introduce the exact same features in a model half the price (Helix) would have been pretty ticked off.

So, what you get for your "premium unit price" is more features, more updates, 18months to 24 months sooner. Autochart Live is an example of that.

That's precisely why it isn't advertised boldly. Owners of the higher end units are just told (through email) that there are "new features or functions available" on the next update and here's the link.

They basically say the software fixes "these bugs" but also adds new testing technology like "these functions or features".

Is it worth the extra money? I don't know. I do know many people just can't resist the temptation to get he latest and greatest technology and are willing to pay for it.

Clever marketing .... and a way not to tick off the guys who spend more money to get the "latest and greatest" only to see the same technology appear on a cheaper unit a few months later.

[RavYak]

I guess that's why you "pay the price premium" ( ONIX versus Helix) for the slighter higher end units. A lot of guys who spent the $4500 on an ONIX only to have Humminbird introduce the exact same features in a model half the price (Helix) would have been pretty ticked off.


Strange that they discontinued the Onix without a similar replacement. The Solix is similar but much larger, lots of guys would prefer to have the 8 or 10 inch screen I would think.

[Ossie]

I have a cottage on a big lake in Ontario, we use Lowrance on the big boat, Hummingbird on the 14 foot "fishing" boat, and a portable Garmin for our fly in fishing trip each spring. Of them all, I like the little Garmin the best. Easy to use, tough as hell in it's portable carry case, and the most inexpensive of the bunch...go figure....

[EZM]

Strange that they discontinued the Onix without a similar replacement. The Solix is similar but much larger, lots of guys would prefer to have the 8 or 10 inch screen I would think.

I think the technology on the Helix will appeal to 99% of the guys looking for a high end, full function unit. The new Solix will be for the 1%ers. The guys who want the biggest and best (or might really want/need one of those features not offered on the Helix units).

In my mind the ONIX is now cleverly re-branded as the new improved SOLIX. Get your wallets out gear junkies - here's something new.

If I were in the market for a new unit today - I'd probably pick up the biggest and best Helix and would not be so compelled to buy a few features for a fat fist full of dough.

Like I said a few years ago when Lowrance and Humminbird were at war with the "first to market with cool new, bigger, better technology" .......

The real winners in this technology war are us, the consumers.

[huntsfurfish]

There is also Simrad, Lowrances big brother. :sHa_shakeshout::)





Lowrances and Humminbird units are expensive enough.:)

[huntsfurfish]

I think the technology on the Helix will appeal to 99% of the guys looking for a high end, full function unit. The new Solix will be for the 1%ers. The guys who want the biggest and best (or might really want/need one of those features not offered on the Helix units).

In my mind the ONIX is now cleverly re-branded as the new improved SOLIX. Get your wallets out gear junkies - here's something new.

If I were in the market for a new unit today - I'd probably pick up the biggest and best Helix and would not be so compelled to buy a few features for a fat fist full of dough.

Like I said a few years ago when Lowrance and Humminbird were at war with the "first to market with cool new, bigger, better technology" .......

The real winners in this technology war are us, the consumers.

Bold - We win but at what cost.:):sign0176::sign0161::thinking-006:

[FlYiNGuY]

Spectacular thread. Thanks everyone! I had my mind set on the Helix 10 SI G2N MEGA but after spending some time at the fishin hole, I have to say the function of the Lowrance better suits my style.

Now just to decide how much to spend to get a middle of the road but decent model. I'm thinking the HDS-9 gen 3 with a totalscan or 3D.

[Willowtrail]

Spectacular thread. Thanks everyone! I had my mind set on the Helix 10 SI G2N MEGA but after spending some time at the fishin hole, I have to say the function of the Lowrance better suits my style.

Now just to decide how much to spend to get a middle of the road but decent model. I'm thinking the HDS-9 gen 3 with a totalscan or 3D.

I like your choice. I really like my HDS. If you go that route and have any Insight Genesis questions shoot me a PM. I've been using it for 2 years and am pretty familiar with it.

[Walleyedude]

In store at CrossIron and in Canadian dollars.

I didn't believe it when I saw it and had the guys at the counter check if it was correct. It is.

I don't need one but I almost bought one anyway lol.

They only have a few of them.

Stopped in there this morning and the Gen 3 HDS 7 is back up to $1550.

It was too good to be true...

[Duramaximos]

It was true for a brief time :sHa_shakeshout:

[FishHunterPro]

Bottom hardness autochart live or bottom hardness when making maps using autochart pro on the computer?

The autochart live helix models did not have bottom hardness last year, I know that and the weeds is new for them this year(as well as being offered on the 5's and 7's as well).

I just looked and last years helix models have an update for the auto chart live bottom hardness and weed mode . Lots of other improvements